Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on September 21, 2006, 10:34:20 AM
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This is for everyone and for Chris 2's list.
Ns sabotage those who cross their paths - their spouse, their children, their colleagues.
My mother has an annoying habit that fits this description. For example, yesterday evening I stopped by for 20 minutes while my son was at a church program. We talked about her dieing sister and related issues. Time for me to go. I stand up and she says, "I need to talk to you about something." She waits until I stand to go. She does this almost everytime I see her, my entire life. My mother is NEVER late and she scorns me my habitual tardiness. But she does not mind sabataging my efforts to be punctual. Sometimes she waits until I get into the car and then she comes to the door and says she has to talk to me. If I stop, get out of the car and come back to her house sometimes all she says is, "I forgot to say I love you." Such a ridiculous power play. Yesterday I told her to call me about whatever she needed to talk about.
This is such a gnat of an example. The real example in my life is THE issue of my life. It has just emerged and I am having a hard time putting it out here. In recent months I finally unraveled what I thought was "fear of failure" to find what I had long denied was actually "fear of success". Yesterday, my therapist gave it a different name - sabatage. He and I went through a list of how my father and brother have sabataged my work, my jobs, my financial well being time after time. Last night I knew I was falling into a depression but it was only this morning that I connected it with Sabotage.
The Kronos effect
It is as though I have been eaten whole by my N father. To fully realize, to have someone with some objecivity (my therapist) acknowledge the reality of my destruction at the hands of those closest by blood is annihilating.
laid low - will rise from ashes - GS
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Here's an example out of today's NYT:
re: Ellen Barkin and Ron Perelman
"Mr. Perelman, she said, was attracted to her because she was a movie star, but objected when she wanted to keep making films." "she said that Mr. Perelman did not want her away from his side for the months it takes to make a movie, so except for small parts, she put her career on hold. ... Some 18 months ago, Ms Barkin accepted a cameo in 'Ocean's Twelve,' ... a role requiring her to spend 36 hours on a film set in Chicago. Her part was later cut, but it caused a rupture in the marriage, she said: 'That had enormous repercussions. After that cameo I moved out of the house with my children So it didn't go well. It never went smoothly when I worked.'"
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Hi GS,
Until very near the end, I didn't see NPD ex-husband's screw-ups as sabotage, but I now believe that's what it was. Once he knew for sure that I'd seen who he really is, he didn't bother to hide it anymore.
I'm finding that I need to be cautious to not continue giving so much stuff to some of this old stuff. Seems it still has the power to take me into a frame of mind where I'd rather not be... but I just wanted to confirm that ~ yup ~ sabotage was one of N's favorite weapons. Everything from ruining a meal (when it wasn't one of his favorite dishes) to making us late for an important event to using the wrong materials in a remodeling project which later fell apart. I know it was intentional. Oh, he especially liked to begin a project which only he could finish and then leave it hanging... a royal mess... knowing full well that there was nothing I could do about it.
The more we tripped over it, the dirtier it made our home, the more everyone in the vicinity was inconvenienced... the better he liked it. Oh, that man could smirk. Ugh.
((((((GS))))))) I think I'm done thinking about him for eternity.
Love,
Hope
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GS...
FABULOUS job on telling your mom to call you to let you know what she had to say.
Love, Beth
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Thank you Miss Beth!!
It felt good. No meanness, no anger. Just Direct and it worked.
Who could ask for anything more.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll hold it as a sign and an encouragement.
your friend - Gaining Strength
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I've found, GS, that when I deal with my mother calmly and firmly as you did, the control incidences decrease. Doesn't mean she doesn't come out with a doozy once in a while, but if it's not working to get at me, she quits the little stuff.
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GS....
Wow. How did you meet my Mom? I have been frustrated by this EXACT behavior with Ma for years, decades. Her little technique, which I always yielded to because I was taught to be so POLITE, is to let me have a chat with her, listen to her, arrange for her present needs and then head out of the room. Just as I cross the threshold she'd say, "Ummmmm...." (As in, I have a continuing thought I want to say....) and I'd hang in mid-air, or turn back, and she'd ask for more attention, usually trumped up. I watched my father leap and dance to this cue for 50 years so I learned it well.
Now I take care of her, but when I leave, I LEAVE. Unless it's a cry of pain, I play deaf and keep walking. Amazingly, it's worked. She issues "Ummm...s" a whole lot less often.
GOOD for you for telling your mother to just call. Bravo!
Hops
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Yes, sabotage seems to be the primary tool of my mother and my estranged husband. With my mother, she tends to exhort me continually to rest and take time for myself while asking me to do her little errands, usually something veyr time-consuming and of dubious value.
I just go ahead and agree, and then make a very half-hearted effort. When I fail to come through, as planned, I have good excuses why I could not stay on hold for 45 minutes to change her reservation. I say that the kids are so demanding and I am so tired and I tried but bla bla bla......eventually she gives up and takes back the task. When she makes her visit reservations at the very time I have told her repeatedly that we will be away, I do not offer any kind of change, responsibility, or even sympathy, I just listen to her complaints about how she will have to pay more and then repeat the dates, ask if she has it now and can she tell me when she has changed it.
With my H, it is not that simple, since the tasks are all very present and necessary. So, I basically withdraw from him. If he is too unwilling to take good care of the kids, I just take them away for an all day outing and he does not see them, and I will do this as many times as it takes or until I drop from exhaustion. He finally got it and is more willing to look after them while I do errands, and all the fun (not) things I have to do. If he is inconsiderate, I wait until he sits down and then tell him he needs to serve his own plate, or for every message he forgets to pass on, I forget to pass one on too.
I guess this is wicked and evil but it works for me!
Plucky
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when I leave, I LEAVE. Unless it's a cry of pain, I play deaf and keep walking.
It's the only way to not play into the passive aggressiveness.
I just listen to her complaints about how she will have to pay more and then repeat the dates,
LOL Plucky That's all you can do in response to that behavior - LOL
GS
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Dear GS,
Sabotage/narcissism...two names for the same thing! :(
teartracks
(((((((((((((((((((((((((supersized hugs for GS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Sabotage/narcissism...two names for the same thing!
Really!! I never knew that. How did you know that?
(((((((((((((((((((((((((supersized hugs for GS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Thank you so much. I really needed that!!
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GS,
I don't know if I know that!
I do know that inside a narcissist lives a sabateur...
You're welcome.
teartracks
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Yes I see. They hate themselves and so they must destroy everyone else - even their own children. And the only people who get it are the few of the wounded who have found out what an N parent is and does. It is so crazy that living it doesn't even make it believable. That's my greatest wound - that my father wants to be sure that I have nothing good or wonderful in my life. That's the wound I just figured out and that's the wound I most need to heal to get on with repairing my life.
Still baffling to me - I'm just shaking me head. - GS
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hi GS,
Thanks for the reminder!
p bean
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Healing from this seems like a huge undertaking. Other people have
career success so apparently easily. Confidence in the world. I dont know
if I will ever have this, but that doubt is not going to stop me
from trying!
I often have felt jealous of those whose dysfunctional family led them to be OVERachievers because at least they got some accolades from society at large. My whole life I have heard how much potential I had but I have never been able to live up to it. But finally I know why - because to succeed would have been to threaten my well being, i.e. my belonging in family. This whole threat was so deeply suppressed and would be denied by all. But now I see how real this sabotage is and having seen it I can heal from it. As the healing comes I know I can begin to experience success. I am sure of it.
Did your mother give you much attention?
Essentially NO. My mother has strong N traits and definitely sabotages me but I have never been as hooked into her as I was my father. - GS
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GS,
Wow.
That's one of the N things my mother used to have in spades.
Envy, jealousy, competitiveness....so if I published something in a national journal she'd say Oh.
And then haul out doggerel she had published in her school newsletter.
Sometimes she acted quite proud of me, and I do think she's mostly cut it out.
Only time she looks crosseyed now is when her gentleman friend (93) comes to visit and lights up at the sight of me or I give him a hug or chat with him for more than 60 sec.
I know my place! (And it's not competing w/Ma.)
She can win! I became more free when I decided that whatever she wanted in terms of someone ELSE's attention...I'd just gladly let her have it. And get out of her way.
Hops
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This discussion triggered some memories in me. I learned early on that I was not to compete with N mom, and this extended to other women. To this day, if there is another woman who wants to take what I have, my man, my friend, my place in the social structure, I cannot do anything but walk away. I immediately give up and crumple down like tissue paper. I know deep down that I do not and never will stand a chance.
What made the lesson more strident was the fact that my father only loved my sister, for reasons I could never understand or influence, and I never had a chance of receiving any of his love.
Men, I can fight to the death. Women, I am beat before I start.
Plucky
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Plucky - I understand 100%. I am just now beginning to recognize some similar mindsets that I have. I was never allowed to say NO to my father, never allowed to disagree or to speak my mind if it differed from his. As a consequence, for much of my life I simply felt bound by what men said. I never experienced the power that women have over men. Just the opposite. But now - for the first time - now that I see how I got caught in this crazy thinking - I am having dreams where my ways of relating to men has changed. I expect that soon I will see that happen in life.
Frankly, I could write pages on end about other warped forms of thinking that have trapped me my entire life but finally I am able to see them for what they are. I honestly believe that I am going to be free of these traps.
From what you write, I don't hear you feeling such release. Are you getting free or do you think you will be released from this trap? I hope so. I hope so for me too.
Hopalong
so if I published something in a national journal she'd say Oh.
And then haul out doggerel she had published in her school newsletter.
Isn't that crazy!! Oh please. It really is nice to be published in a school newsletter but it doesn't quite compare to a national journal. And it looks so petty in comparison. Isn't that tragic that she doesn't even she that she is actually belittling herself. The sad life of an N.
This afternoon a man from my grandfather's law firm came by my mother's to pay respects. Many years ago he had dated my mother's youngest sister. And truth be told, he really came by to see her. I was in the kitchen and could just hear my mother going on and on about a project she was working on so I went out to the living room to get her to come and help me. It was hard to catch her between breaths. She didn't have a clue that Nick had not come to see her. And while he came to see them both - he wouldn't have come if my aunt hadn't been there. Oh the life of an N. Sad - so sad.
Some moments I'm Gaining Strength
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Hi GS,
thanks for your comments. You are right. I don't feel free from this. It comes from not having female friends (ok, any friends). When I sally forth to try to make some friends, as I am doing now. It is crushing to confront my lack of social confidence, skills, and insight. I make mistakes by being too pushy, too sarcastic, too needy, and too clueless. I then relive those moments over and over and at the I am a crumpled mass of self-recrimination.
And my worst fear is that my children will learn my handicap and have it themselves.
My only strategy is to keep at it and maybe learn something along the way. But I know that I am also burning bridges and I am encountering now the bridges I burned in the past.
a pathetic
Plucky
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Hi Plucky,
I can really relate to what you've said here... the whole thing. But look at what you have to work with! You're facing reality, being honest, admitting to a level of ignorance which I think alot of people share, but they're just too dug-in to admit it, so they cover it up with a false front. Maybe that's too cynical of me, but that's been my impression in general. Maybe I'm being selfish to say this because I'm in a similar boat, but to me, you have everything going for you, Plucky! It just feels crushing, but we're not really crushed, are we? Every time I face something like this in myself it's so odd... I feel less like "me" and yet more like the "me" I'm supposed to be. If we can just get past the disorienting sensation of being suspended in mid-air over a pit of hungry gators, I think we'll be fine. :? Hugs, Plucky. I'm in this one with you.
Hope
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Plucky,
Don't give up and don't be discouraged. I didn't have any girl friends growing up. Heck, I didn't have any friends at all until my first boyfriend and that wasn't friendship but was my first experience with peers. I finally managed to make a few friends in college but then lost track of them. I have one friend who is with me through thick or thin, but she lives far away. For companionship, I don't have any friends, but am working on it. It's really weird and scary at the same time. Women can intimidate me in a second where I feel more comfortable with men.
Hang in there, Plucky, you can do it. It does take time, but it will work out. Have faith in yourself.
Adrift
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Plucky and Adrift -
I am in the boat with you on no friends. I had plenty growing up and then fewer but enough until a few years ago and then I had none. Ilost all confidence in being able to make friends, I had no sense of boundaries, couldn't understand where the limits were, pushed some people too hard and others let walk over me unti i finally just gave up the idea of having friends. Now, however, after spending time on this board, I am finding that I am gaining a new sense of confidence. I think the big thing for me is that I no longer need a friend to understand me. That need is met by my friends here. Now I can develop friendships of different levels because I can always come here and know that someone will understand my limitations and have compassion for my struggles. Voicelessness gives me what home should have given me. I really believe that we can encourage each other to go out and start making friends. Let's workout our struggles together. That's what friends are for. What do you say? - GS
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Plucky, Hope, GS, Adrift:
I am so sorry. You're missing half the human race and that's a big piece of a different kind of love.
But...I do relate, here's how.
Through high school I had no female friends, from 1st grade on up (as well as being at the bottom of the pecking order). Girls, from 2nd grade on (!) were my chief tormentors during the day. (Although the boys sured helped them.) I yearned for the girls' acceptance with all my being, but there was something about me then (so vulnerable, oversincere, no cool, all my yearning visible as a billboard) that just must've said "victim." Anyway, I became one.
The strangest was that I chose an all-women's college after a nightmarish girls' school for several years (though I later had graduated from a co-ed h.s.). I don't know why, but I had the thought, it simply can't be the way St. X's was. That was so bad it's not possible that it would be the same. I just had a gut sense that college women would be different. And they were!
It was so odd because I felt as though the very qualities I'd been hated for in elementary school (sensitivity and seriousness and vulnerability...can anyone say Nerd?) I was liked for in college? I went north of here, and people found me interesting, as though I'd grown up in a cow patch. :lol:
Anyway, from those beginnings as a child, woman friends have become my greatest comfort in life. It was a joyful discovery and I think one can make it at any age.
A HUGE help to me was a women's support group where many of us didn't know how to trust other females. We had a wonderful strong leader who guided us through a lot of structured taking-turns and guided communication. That was amazing. People I might have run from I had to sit and listen to. And over the weeks, as I got to know the very diverse individuals...I one evening realized, we're all sisters.
Hops
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Plucky (and all),
I grew up with the mantra "I don't like other women. I only like men." I am not sure where it came from exactly, whether it was something my mother actually said or just by example. But over time, I grew to realize how important the few females I had in my life were to me (one especially, whom my mother hates because she is beautiful). I now have a group of women friends I adore. This is the first time I have enjoyed that type of relationship. I still like men, but I don't have to prove myself among them as much. I always wanted to out-drink, out-muscle and generally show off when it came to men (and still do some... it was a comfort zome for too long). With my female friends, I can relax a bit and gripe if I want and joke about things I would never discuss with men...
Love,
Beth
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But I do like women as friends. I long to have women friends. But now, at this late date, it seems to be so difficult to make any. I had some before we moved here, 10 time zones away, but after I was married, my husband was very angry if I spent time on the phone with them. So the friendships faded away. All the other women have their friends. They don't need a new, clueless, needy, clumsy one. What for.
The ones I used to have have moved on. I have dug all the way back to undergrad and they are just surprised to hear from me, then it fades away.
Men friends would be ok theoretically, but I am still married and men seem to get the wrong idea if they are single, and their wives get the wrong idea if they are married. So that is not a possibility.
Plucky
Anyway, I can see that I am just whining. I'll stop.
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You are right, Plucky, it is a bit harder to make friends as we get older... for me, my standards have changed too. I don't want people to be exactly like me, but I definitely want them to be kind and loving parents and good people.
I have found that the best way to start a friendship is to show interest in the other person. Often, that will bloom into them showing interest for you.
That being said... I have chosen my "best" friends from a crappy pool over the last few years. The person I trusted most and wanted to believe in ( though I had that gut feeling all along) basically hosed me. And now I have chosen someone who is a full fledged drunk and I am tired of her self-centeredness and meanness.OUr kids are close and we live near each other. I am so done with her. Because of my alcoholism, I also wanted to be in the background if she ever decides to get help. She knows I was a drunk, and that I never condemn or even point out her behavior. At any rate, her boys are like my "other three children" but I am not dealing with her much.
Friendship is not easy game, I know.
Love, Beth
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Thank you Gratitude, Hopsy, GS, Certain Hope (welcome back!), adrift, for paying attention. I feel so sad about this, but at the same time I feel guilty about whining over something that is my fault and maybe cannot be changed. It seems that every time I start to get close to someone, they suddenly pull back as if they smell a bad smell or something. After a lot of analysis I finally come up with something I might have done to cause it. But I would never realise this thing while it was happening. Is everyone else so perfect or ok besides me? If this is my old tape playing, then why does it really keep happening in my real life?
And the worst is that I feel one of my children is having the same issue. He is starting to be very leery of beginnig frinedships. I feel I foisted this on him somehow and if it were in my power I would never do so, bt I have no idea what I am doing wrong or how to unteach it to him.
For their sake I need to continue, otherwise I would just withdraw into my books and maybe get a big pet. I am just venting. I know no one can help with this.
It really hurts.
Plucky
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Oh, dear Plucky!
I just know this isn't hopeless. Do you think perhaps the problem could be... unrealistic expectations?
Re: After a lot of analysis I finally come up with something I might have done to cause it.
I can't believe that it's always a something you've said or done that's gotten in the way. What are the odds? You know what I think... maybe people just aren't accustomed to someone who is as "real" as you are and they're taken aback. If that's the case, then what's the solution? To be less "real"? Oh sheesh, I hope not. And how long does it take, anyway, to build a true, lasting friendship that's based on genuine intimacy and not mere superficial connections? Long time, I think. Lots of work and constant diligence. Relationships like that are rare, I believe, and in the meanwhile, we build up other levels of friendships on a more casual, superficial basis and wait to see which ones might grow into something more?
Wish I could help, Plucky. If you want to talk about this some more and give some examples of what happens when these friendships fizzle... I'll sure listen. Not because I think I have the answers, but sometimes what we're missing is right in front of our face, just we've become so accustomed to it bein there, it's invisible to us.
With love,
Hope
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Hi Hope,
I think you are on to something, at least the taken aback part. However, it happens even when I make small talk. But what does that mean, too real? Too direct? Too close for comfort? Too touchy on their sensitive parts? I do practice being what I think of as less real. Last week I accepted an obviously false excuse for a last minute cancellation of an activity my son was going to have with another child without batting an eye. I could easily have come up with an answer to solve the nonexistent 'problem', but I figured that if she wanted to lie about it, it just means she wants to cancel, period. Why rope her in.
Maybe I should just adopt twenty kids and then go live on a desert island, so they will have each other and I won't have to worry about being accepted by society. That is my silly dream.
Plucky
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Hi, Plucky,
I'm thinking maybe it is being "too direct".
Boy, can I relate to what you practiced in accepting what you sensed was a false excuse. See, I have huge trouble with that, too;
I want to take people at face value and not be expected to read between their lines. It's so much simpler that way! But then I'm realizing that I have my own lines to learn to read between and I'm coming to surmise that if we aren't willing to bend and play the "game", so to speak, people are going to feel so uncomfortable in dealing with us that they'll take the path of least resistance and avoid. Ack. It's a tightwire act, for sure, and one I am absolutely rotten at, but I keep trying. Just know that you're not alone, ok? Who woulda guessed we could be so susceptible to peer pressure and all this stuff at the tender age of mid-life? But I don't think there's anything wrong with being a rare bird at any age and if we have to jump through hoops in order to "win" friendship, maybe that's not a friendship worth cultivating? Just being able to talk this through is helping me alot, because it's always seemed like stuff that people are expected to just "know"... only I've never known or understood. Thanks for the opportunity.
Hope
P.S. on edit... Also, could there be a certain intensity that people sense, even in small talk? You know, sometimes when people get so accustomed to a robotic sort of cliche response, anything different can really strike them as "odd" and leave them speechless. You know when that glaze comes across their face because the usual programming has been interrupted?
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How direct is too direct?
How real is too real?
Just wondering... how one decides this, and what the gradations are. I know what I think, but I want to know what others think.
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Stormy, I don't know.... and that's the problem. Eagerly awaiting the input of others with their thoughts.
Hope
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Hi again, Plucky...
You know, I think you are reading too much into the failed attempts you had. I know for me there are a LOT of people I would not want as friends... So maybe it was best that the friendships ended early on. I'm not trying to gloss over it, but friendships really are few and far between. I think m,ost of my "more serious acquaintanceships" come from groups I am involved in - AA, other crazy dog owners, people in my painting class. I wouldn't become a drunk just to make friends, if I were you, but is there another kind of hobby you and your child could do together where you might meet some new people? Bungee jumping? Advanced gymnastics? A reading group at the library? Reall, I think it just works so well if you meet someone with a fun common interest.
Love, Beth
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ahem... Bungee jumping?? :shock: :o
Plucky, I vote for the library reading group :)
(((((((((Beth 8) )))))))))
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Awww, Plucky. Your husband is the one controlling your time talking to girlfirends? :evil:
Or was that previous H (forgive, I can't remember, I'm senile...)
Only other thing is: women's support group, women's support group...
we had married and single and all sorts of women in some I've been to.
It was always, always valuable and sometimes led to friendships....
Hate thinking of you lonely. :(
Hops
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Thank you everyone for helping me feel less alone. Your advice is great and your presence is priceless.
I had a bad experience yesterday and it really got me down. But now that you mention activities, of which we have loads, there is one person I talked to last week who showed some interest in doing some things together. In my intense bout of being pathetic, I had forgotten. I have some hope! I hope I won't crash and burn as usual. See you same time next week after I've been kicked to the kerb.
I do feel some discomfort with the person who lied about the excuse. Why couldn't she just say she didn't feel like it? How much longer before I misread one of her cryptic (to me) cues and flub up again, earning another dismissal? Is this a skill I am really going to need to have a social life and a friend? I don't think I can hack it!
The bad experience was a social event, which are as scarce as dodo bird sightings in my life, and I tried to dress up nicely and meet some new people. I felt that I looked ok, and people gravitated towards me, but when they got a whiff of my loser stench they bolted. I also realised that the late date at which I was invited meant I was a second, maybe third choice. And since I spend all my time with my children I had no conversation beyond being awed at everyone's accomplishments, and how do they do it all.
I just feel there is this hole in my heart and it can be gouged out at any time by this type of rejection. It is frightening how low I can sink so quickly. For a while I could not see a way out.
Ok enough pity party. Thank you and go to bed.
Plucky
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ok Plucky nite nite
((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))
Love,
Hope
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Plucky,
I think it will help when you get a bit beyond caring... you know, when you feel like, "Hey, I am happy with me and that is enough." People gravitate towards that kind of energy. I think you ARE giving out an "OK... you are close enough... get lost" vibe. I think it reinforces your bad feelings about yourself. I don't mean that you WANT to hurt yourself, but in a way you are still punishing yourself. It is part of that cycle where you say, see, I knew it would always be this way. So next time, hold your head high, let them gravitate and be a bit mysterious! Mysterious is always fun. Once you get past the initial meeting phase and can get to know a person (and remember, it has to be the right kind of person too), things can be more serious and deep. I have to say, I do share my real feelings with people, but not overly much as I do keep a look out for the "glazed" look one of our group mentioned here.
Lots of love and a good sleep... I could have stayed in bed this morning!!!!
Love, Beth
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Plucky, based on decades [ :-( ] of experience, most people at parties / mixers / etc. can't figure out how to talk to someone they don't already know, on anything but the most superficial of levels. Unless they're 'on the prowl'...
If you are any good at small talk you may still be frustrated because so many conversations stall at that level.
If you are no good at small talk you'll be even more frustrated because you won't be having many conversations.
Best to try and find a group with a shared interest, and make sure your values also align with the group's real values [so that you don't find yourself listening to a tirade about 'those people' when you happen to be one of them, such as a single mother, or a Christian, or a Buddhist...].
And trust your gut. If you don't feel comfortable, don't try too hard to ignore that feeling. Wait a bit, see if it's just normal jitters, or you're picking up on something real.
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Thank you Gratitude, Stormy, and Hope, and Gaining Strength I am sorry to have hijacked. I was just feeling so low yesterday and did not feel up to starting a new thread.
I think there must be something I am giving off at some point that makes people draw back. Maybe I am just waiting for the big kissoff.
I do have a hard time seeing th next step any more. When someone does make an overture, I am so surprised that I do nto know how to respond. Sometimes I respond very badly.
This is very hard work. I am in a weakened state because my N mother is coming to visit. It is never fun.
Hoppy, my estranged H is the one who, if I got on the phone with one of my girlfriends, and was visibly excited and happy, would mope around the house, interrupt me continuously, look repeatedly at his watch, get in my face and ask me how long I was going to talk, tell me I had been on for x minutes, and finally start to treat the children roughly, and that is when I would get off the phone. After a while my friends started to think the whole thing was wierd, and that they were getting in the way of my marriage or something.
Plucky
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Hmmm... Plucky... could the two things be somehow related now? Obviously you had no problem chatting with your friends then. Do you have some anxious feeling left over from the EX's behavior? I agree that you are doing something to sabotage the attempts, but why is the question you need to answer.
Love, Beth
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Plucky-
What's the subject of this thread?
my estranged H is the one who, if I got on the phone with one of my girlfriends, and was visibly excited and happy, would mope around the house, interrupt me continuously, look repeatedly at his watch, get in my face and ask me how long I was going to talk, tell me I had been on for x minutes, and finally start to treat the children roughly, and that is when I would get off the phone. After a while my friends started to think the whole thing was wierd, and that they were getting in the way of my marriage or something.
Can you say sa bo tage?
I do think Gratitude has a good point. I know she has me pegged on this one.
I think it will help when you get a bit beyond caring... you know, when you feel like, "Hey, I am happy with me and that is enough." People gravitate towards that kind of energy. I think you ARE giving out an "OK... you are close enough... get lost" vibe. I think it reinforces your bad feelings about yourself. I don't mean that you WANT to hurt yourself, but in a way you are still punishing yourself. It is part of that cycle where you say, see, I knew it would always be this way. So next time, hold your head high, let them gravitate and be a bit mysterious! Mysterious is always fun.
I have really made a 180 in just a few months by changing the way I think about myself and my social encounters. Before I go somewhere I anticipate my own negative thoughts and then I start working on affirmations that will counter these negative thoughts. If I can do this for a day or two in advance - all the better. I know things are going well when I can do this right in the middle of a social event.
Keep searching for what is going wrong. You are getting close to an answer. - your friend - Gaining Strength
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Wow ((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))))
Hypothetical: If you had internalized an abusive message such as you don't deserve to connect happily with people (and if you try someone will wreck your pleasure ASAP)...well then, if you had come to accept their interpretation as what "real" is....what "deserving to be happy is".
who wouldn't be nervous and put out uncomfortable vibes at a friendly overture?
I say THEY'RE unreal (and they do NOT have the job of correcting your emotions). I think you're uncomfortable with people now for a good reason, it makes an internal emotional sense. And just like any OTHER unreality that peels gradually away and reveals its true nature, you're going to wake up to that and let go of it. Just as soon as you see it clearly enough and are ready to look at it, call it what it is, yank it out of yourself, and feel yourself liking yourself, in a circle spreading about 5 feet around you. That's enough space to start filling with your self-love. You can be generous or mysterious or playful or straightforward or shy or silly in your self-love circle.
Because there'll be a happier, friendlier, healthier reality that YOU choose to live in instead.
It's not their place to take away your ability to relax and be happy. They may try. But you just might start throwing those peels on the sidewalk.
They're just bits of peel. They'll wither. You won't.
love,
Hops
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Can you say sa bo tage?
Doh.......you bet! (you're funny. I had to laugh a good one at myself)
I think this is how it goes. I have my strategy (my outfit. What I will talk about. Why I am sooooo attractive as a friend) and then I sally forth to implement. It goes ok for a while. I am happy. Things are clicking. Then something happens that I am not sure how to interpret. Maybe something is said that I don't know how to respond to or I respond badly. Maybe someone gets called away to another conversation. The talk turns to something cool I don't know about or a place I haven't been invited and they all have. Maybe I stay too long in the conversation before moving on (my forte).
Then I crumple. I knew I had no business here. I mentally bang my head against the wall. Usually I can go on and recover. But when I am alone, the real self hatred starts.
Now I think it also has something to do with the fact that as a child my father rarely let me go on outings my sister went on. The excuse was that I was too young, but I reached and surpassed the age she had been at and was still Cinderella in the house dressed in rags. (For this insight, I thank one mother who refused to take my sister to an outing with her daughters after she came to pick us up, found out I was not going and did not accept the reasons why. Thank you, thank you, for calling this to my attention for the first time! If you think a single moment cannot affect a child's life, think again.)
I also link this to being bullied at the brink of adolescence by a group of stylish girls, led by one in particular whose intense hatred of me I could never fathom. At a reunion long ago, I saw them and even then, as adults, they made jokes about me finally becoming 'cool', since I was cute, well-dressed, and with a hot guy. (Sigh. The good old days.)
Thank you for working this through with me. I have to say my intense feelings yesterday were overwhelming, even though I did not think I had good reason. I had the odd sensation of sinking down into a well, and I was not sure how low I was going to go.
Just as soon as you see it clearly enough and are ready to look at it, call it what it is, yank it out of yourself, and feel yourself liking yourself,
I am envisioning some movie I saw where a person had to use a pair of pliers to wrench out an alien implant. It was brutal, painful, and so necessary. Thanks for that Hoppy.
Do you have some anxious feeling left over from the EX's behavior?
I think now I am afraid to make contact because of the times he embarrassed me. I'll invite people over and he makes sure the house is a wreck. I accept an invitation and then he decides he won't care for the kids.
Hi gratitude/Beth, I am happy wth me but I have no one to talk to except my children, and they are very young. I really want flesh and blood friends too. I am social and I'm all pent up.
Keep searching for what is going wrong. You are getting close to an answer. - your friend - Gaining Strength
Thank you. I hope so.
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Awesome stuff, Plucky.... deep soul-digging.
I hear you on spending too much time with the kids. An "adult" day for me is watching Harry Potter as opposed to Kids Next Door. I also want to be social... I chat with people at work and that helps...
So, I guess you identified that you are trying to play God, as it were, by setting up the scene and outcome...
I used to go nuts after any conversation with ANYONE, and especially with someone I thought was cool, by analyzing every word said and how it was said and why it was said and so on. And I was so needy in school that most kids shied away from me. I won't embarrass myself or you by telling some of my lamentable tales...
Lots of love, Plucky.
Beth
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So, I guess you identified that you are trying to play God, as it were, by setting up the scene and outcome...
Hm. I do try to be prepared, but until I read what you wrote, I did not realise that I actually don't have any outcome in mind. I mean, beyond that initial sparkling conversation, I do not envision anything more. I know I have a need to make friends and have contact, and being around a group of adults is even kind of happily intoxicating. But after that, if I think about the future or next step, it is like a fog, it just fades away. I didn't realise that. Have to think about it.
Plucky
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((((((((((((((((plucky))))))))))))))
Wish you were near me. We could go beach combing together and let the brats play :)
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Thank you......me too.
I'll use that lovely thought as a kind of springboard to help me visualise what a nice budding friendship could be.
Nighty nite
Plucky
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Father = husband = CONTROL Pllucky
(who therefore can only keep up the "act--their reality--of being just as good as anybody--for so long....)
You deserve company, friendship, affirmation, just as much as anyone who walks this earth.
(((((((Plucky)))))))))) womenssupportgroupwomensupportgroupsubliminaladvertisinnnnnngggg
Hops
Hops
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GS, plucky, beth, Hops, Hope, Storm & adrift,
Wow, what a great thread. GS, I felt very calmed by your explanation. You said that now you expect less from your other friends due to finding this board and the understanding here? Yes, I've had a similar experience. So thanks all. It has giving me more confidence and I do think I'm less needy in my offline friendships (I didn't say "real" since the understanding here has been so much more real to me than a lot of friendships I've known). The friendships aren't better or worse, they're just different. We just have a common shared experience here that is so unique. So hey, there's a positive you never knew would come out of the horrible hell of your N eh??? :)
Plucky,
I feel so sad about this, but at the same time I feel guilty about whining over something that is my fault and maybe cannot be changed. It seems that every time I start to get close to someone, they suddenly pull back as if they smell a bad smell or something. After a lot of analysis I finally come up with something I might have done to cause it. But I would never realise this thing while it was happening. Is everyone else so perfect or ok besides me? If this is my old tape playing, then why does it really keep happening in my real life?
Ah (((((((((((((((((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
It's not your fault. there simply is no blame to be doled out in this case, you're just you, that's all. You're wonderful and when its time, friends will appear.
bean
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Penelope
We just have a common shared experience here that is so unique.
Amen sister, Amen. I am thankful beyond the horizons. - GS
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I never realized this until you all brought it up... but it is true...I feel relieved to have you here and I don't feel I need to find someone to understand outside of the site... although one friend and I did find that we had a lot in common in the parenting regard. She said her parents feel that they did a good job of parenting because they both turned out well... the sad thing is she says they were horrible parents. But we discussed it and it was just part of the getting to know each other phase and went along with everything else. Here we can dig deeper into it and it feels safe. No one will question whether I am just "angry at my parents."
Thanks for a great place to ruminate!
Love, Beth
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I never realized this until you all brought it up... but it is true...I feel relieved to have you here and I don't feel I need to find someone to understand outside of the site... although one friend and I did find that we had a lot in common in the parenting regard. She said her parents feel that they did a good job of parenting because they both turned out well... the sad thing is she says they were horrible parents. But we discussed it and it was just part of the getting to know each other phase and went along with everything else. Here we can dig deeper into it and it feels safe. No one will question whether I am just "angry at my parents."
Thanks for a great place to ruminate!
Love, Beth
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You know what else - it satisfies my need to be understood. Because there are people I can talk to about my deepest hurt AND be understood AND have shared that experience I can go out and have other friendships that are on a more superficial level. I use "superficial" here not in a derogatory manner at all. Friendships should vary in depth - depending on the commonality. But what we share here is what I have tried to find in friendships and marriage in the past and until I got this connection I really couldn't deal with the superficial stuff of life that has significance as well. I'm sure that has alot to do with why I isolated and why I now am able to go out and begin to meet for coffee and work on a PTA committee.
First I needed to share and to be understood on this deep level. That is what you all do. Today on Oprah, John Edward's wife described how important an internet group had been to her in dealing with her grief over her son's death. Oprah said something to the effect of, "But you didn't even know them." and she said something like, "Well yes I did." And I thought - "yes better than anyone else." C'est vrai.
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I agree, GS. I have been able to better deal with my life because I have this outlet and have this understanding of myself. I used to be so embarassed, or worried I would not be liked. Or I had to go overboard to ensure everyone did like me. I am not doing it as much anymore.
In fact, my "friend" the drunk neighbor I have told you about is on the way out as a "friend." I had a crisis (OK< maybe not a crisis, but for our family it was horrible...)> I went home the otehr night and both of our piggies had died during the day... the baby and the one we have had for three years. My daughter is so upset and I am so sad and so is my son. We adored them. My "friend" always calls, usually drunk, to tell me how this or that person did something to her and I listen... I went over yesterday and told her about the piggies and she just said, "Oh and then proceeded to tell me about her son and how he wasn't listening. I am done... I am not going to enter into unhealthy relationships. There is just no reason.
Sooo... I would rather be with my kids than with a spoiled adult, you know? But I am also doing more of coffees, and hanging out with nice people... Before I couldn't bear to be with anyone...
Love, Beth
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Way to go Beth. She couldn't hear about YOU and your loss. I'm sorry she couldn't let it be a two way giving and receiving.
And I am so sorry about the piggies. I bet they were adorable. I love my critters and a loss is hard to bear.
((((((((((((((((((((Gratitude))))))))))))))))))))))))
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It was very hard. I don't think I will get guinea pigs again for a while. Our hearts are broken. I did some research and they said sudden death is common in them. The little one had gotten sick before; I think he might have died and the other died from a broken heart... he was cuddled up next to him. My kids wrote them letters and put in a picture and a stuffed animal.
So, I will stick to guppies... I don't get as upset and we can see their life cycle with the babies. And Henry, of course, my other bad son...
Thanks for listening.
Love, Beth