Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on September 25, 2006, 11:00:34 AM
-
Excerpted from the article
The Impact of Narcissism on Leadership and Sustainability
by Bruce Gregory, Ph.D.
On the surface narcissism presents so the individual appears as confident and entitled. NARCISSISM loves and demands attention to reinforce its grandiosity. It needs to dominate and control the "space," to be "more special" than anyone else. It also needs perfection and immediate gratification to satisfy its all powerful aspect of its grandiosity. As a result, inside the individual, the narcissism feels extremely arrogant.
However, underneath the surface narcissism is fragile. Disappointment and frustration threaten its grandiosity, leaving it vulnerable to feelings of shame and humiliation exacerbated by its harsh, punitive component. Along with the shame and humiliation come deep fears of annihilation which are fueled by the black and white, rigid thinking component: "if I am not perfect and all powerful, then I am nothing." The extreme fear of being found out to not be omnipotent requires the narcissism to resort to hiding its deeper nature. This act of hiding ultimately leaves the narcissistic self vulnerable to forces that have trust at their core, not fear.
*********************************************************************************************************
NARCISSISM is distinguished from true leadership (which shares attention) by narcissism’s use, abuse and exploitation of people, as opposed to enhancing and facilitating the value of others. Sustainability is dependent on collaborative, mutually complementary group efforts that seek to maximize benefits for the largest amount of people without exploiting each other or the integrity of the environment. This is offensive to narcissism because it is in direct contradiction to narcissism’s values of dominance, exploitation and control.
So what does narcissism do in the presence of sustainability proponents? It resists. It resists in a methodical, calculated way toward the end of either distracting, derailing, or simply stopping whatever program the sustainability contingent is seeking to implement. Character assassination, misinformation, and blocking access to funding and other resources are commonly employed methods.
Before we discuss how narcissism can be detected and engaged effectively, it is important to review factors which contribute to narcissism being able to effectively control situations and relationships. First, if a person or a group is unaware of his or its narcissism, they will often be unable to recognize the presence of a narcissistic force. It is a well known dynamic in most psychological circles that if one is denying or cut off from an aspect of the self, it is very difficult position to recognize this aspect in others.
Second, many people have the fantasy that if they try hard, "do it right," be reasonable, logical, and have goodwill and a team approach, these factors will generate a positive outcome in interpersonal or group settings. This is about as deep a fantasy as one could possibly have, as it is not based in reality. Why is this? It is not based in reality because a narcissist survival is dependent on having control, or the perception of control. When a narcissist's control is challenged (and this is what efforts toward sustainability do by definition), he becomes threatened, and responds like his survival is at stake, transforming the environment into a veritable jungle. This is not the friendly environment of Mr. Rogers’ neighborhood! In addition narcissism is disdainful of such attitudes (fantasies).
A third factor which reinforces the stranglehold narcissism can have is when people are committed to being "nice" or fair, and as a result are unwilling or unprepared to hold the narcissist accountable for positions or behaviors. Finally, an unwillingness to "go for the throat," as champions do in sporting events, only allows narcissism to recycle and feed off its commitment to domination.
********************************************************************************************************
Transformation in accordance with principles of sustainability is dependent upon an individual and groups of individuals having and utilizing sufficient trust in themselves and in natural law to withstand the efforts of narcissistic forces to intimidate, mystify, and control major processes of life. The seeds of empowerment are contained within a world of trust, and its many subsets. There are many areas in which to develop trust before a persons or persons can amass sufficient power to transform the holds narcissistic forces maintain. These include: trust in oneself; trust that natural law supercedes the will and tenacity of narcissistic forces; trusting that narcissistic forces at their core do not come from strength, but from desperation; trust in one's skills to empower others by helping them to break down fears into manageable segments, and by asking questions that challenge others to think for themselves, and take responsibility for their positions.
In order to utilize this deep, inner reservoir of trust it is important to have highly developed tolerances for frustration, ambiguity and anxiety. Transformation often takes a long time and involves complex processes that parallel natural laws obeying temporal factors which are in direct contrast to narcissism's insistence upon immediate gratification. If we examine transformation briefly from the perspectives of biology and chemistry, we will notice that molecular processes continually taking place at the cellular level require heat. Heat is often associated with passion, whose activity is blocked by significant amounts of fear and anxiety. A leader must to able to facilitate the transformation of fear in others, not react to the fear of others, and contain and transform the fear within herself. Without this, focus is lost, and it becomes impossible to manifest the necessary combinations of interdependent resources that sustainability processes require.
Article includes tips on Skills for dealing with N, amongst other helpful info.
-
Excellent post CH. Thank you.
mud
-
Certain Hope
What a powerful piece. So concisely gets at the problem and solution of dealing with narcissism as a societal force. I see that in addition to the wounding we have received, we also have received a vision and insight into who is and what is narcissistic. I have often heard echoed on this site my own feelings of inadequacy to convey to others the destruction of the Ns in our life. Your piece explains that dynamic so clearly. We have been given a special knowledge that we can use to set ourselves free.
It is in this knowledge that we can trust - S+S
Trust. That is what is so hard to have, as a child of an N. I struggle to trust myself, The universe and others.
The Ns have poisoned our belief in our own understanding, in our own strenghts because they felt threatened by them. But here we are learning to trust our insights about narcissism and here we get validation and reafirmation that our experiences with Ns are as crazy as thy seemed. In this understanding we must go back to that instincive understanding that has been systematically squashed by Nness.
Thank you so much Certain Hope. This is very encouraging. It will help me as I go out into the world. I have in the past, tried to argue with narcissism and trid to set it right. No more. I will now see encounters with Narcissism as a roadblock as in the mazes my little boy loves to work. When I get to the roadblock I will see it as a sign to turn around and go the other way. Until now I have tried to get through the roadblock. What a waste! No wonder I have been so tired.
These three factors that reinforce narcissistic strongholds help me make sense of a lifetime of struggle and frustration both on a personal level and on a corporate (as in community or large body of people working together) level.
Jacmac - this is what you have been posting about so often and so eloquently. Boy - what a piece of redemptive writing. Thanks again Certain Hope - your friend Gaining Strength.
-
" ... many people have the fantasy that if they try hard, "do it right," be reasonable, logical, and have goodwill and a team approach, these factors will generate a positive outcome in interpersonal or group settings. This is about as deep a fantasy as one could possibly have, as it is not based in reality. Why is this? It is not based in reality because a narcissist survival is dependent on having control, or the perception of control. When a narcissist's control is challenged (and this is what efforts toward sustainability do by definition), he becomes threatened, and responds like his survival is at stake, transforming the environment into a veritable jungle. This is not the friendly environment of Mr. Rogers’ neighborhood! In addition narcissism is disdainful of such attitudes (fantasies).
A third factor which reinforces the stranglehold narcissism can have is when people are committed to being "nice" or fair, and as a result are unwilling or unprepared to hold the narcissist accountable for positions or behaviors. Finally, an unwillingness to "go for the throat," as champions do in sporting events, only allows narcissism to recycle and feed off its commitment to domination."
Wow... :-) :-) :-) ... somebody out there agrees with me! WOO-HOO!!! little happy dance!!!!!!
These are the centerpieces of N brainwashing, these are the attitudes they strive to instill in us - when we are their children, when we are their students, their subordinates, their mates. This is the foundation of the double standard that can haunt and hinder us all our lives, unless we learn to see it.
The truly awful aspect is that Ns, in teaching us to constrain ourselves this way, are taking the best parts of our character and training us to cripple ourselves with them.
It is SO HARD to see how our best qualities are used against us in this way. It is SO HARD to 'get' that we're being played off against ourselves when this is going on.
This notion that it is more important to be kind, always, indiscriminately, than to determine whether or not our kindness is being wasted in certain contexts, and would be better invested more selectively ... the notion that if we're just kind enough, the world really will all come right, and unloving people will suddenly love us... what else is this, but another way of casting our pearls before swine?
Which is not to say, Alfie, that it is wise to be cruel.
It is wise to be wise. It is wise to use the discernment we have, and to be loving in that way, to realize that it can be more loving to set limits, and require accountability, than to indulge and excuse... although it's much more difficult, requires a lot more thought, and can feel - calculating - at the start.
And this still leaves plenty of room for being kind and loving in the usual way - with people who know how to value that!!!
Link? Link? Please oh please? I want to see what his suggested strategies are, and especially how he advocates breaking denial and maintaining awareness once you've managed to get your vision cleared...
-
Glad you've all found this useful.
Sorry, thought I'd included the link: http://ceres.ca.gov/tcsf/pathways/chapter12.html
Hope
-
Useful? This is TERRIFIC!!! :-) :-) :-)
thanks so much for finding and sharing it!
-
Oh, this is BEAUTIFUL... I think I'm in love!!!.... this guy gets it, gets it, gets it!
Hope, thanks so much...
"SKILLS FOR DEALING WITH NARCISSISM
Skills for dealing with attempts to intimidate can be divided into two areas, intrapersonal and interpersonal. Intrapersonally, it is essential not to react. This means that reactions of fear, impatience, or anger are not practical. In their place should be patience and curiosity. On an interpersonal level, responses and questions like, "that's interesting; could you explain that?; or, "I am not clear about that; would you please clarify (or elaborate)?; or, "it seems like there is a contradiction in your logic." All of these can generate positive results in terms of reducing the control of the narcissistic forces. This is done through the non-reaction, which communicates, "you are not so powerful that you can manipulate me, or us, and distract us from the issue. It is also done through the questions which communicate, "I/we are not afraid of you; we are not leaving the space/situation to your control alone; we will challenge you if necessary; you cannot win through intimidation or disinformation."
Excellent individual emotional boundaries are so critical for dealing with narcissism. These emotional boundaries prevent the force of the narcissism emotions from throwing an individual off balance. The emotional boundaries are also helpful in not taking the narcissism's actions or positions personally. The narcissism, consumed and driven by the grandiosity, feels responsible for everything; therefore, all failures, frustrations, and disappointments are its fault, and are directed personally at it. In interacting with narcissism, one does not want to fall into the narcissist's world and take what is going on personally. Narcissism's actions are indiscriminate. They are directed toward any object, person or group that threatens its control, domination and grandiosity. An excellent emotional boundary system does not allow the force of another person's emotions to penetrate one's own personal space.
Accountability skills are another important tool in the sustainability advocate's arsenal. Accountability skills, used in group settings, are extremely educational to promote awareness regarding the dynamics of power. Accountability skills reduce the tendency to be a victim, and provide inspiration and support for persons looking for the courage to successfully challenge narcissistic forces. Accountability creates "space" by obligating narcissistic forces to substantiate positions, communication and behavior. Accountability skills generate the conditions that require narcissistic forces to take responsibility for their intent or give up their position.
Questions like the following are the medium for accountability skills:
How did you come to your decision/position?
What factors influenced your decision?
Have you considered the possibility that you are contradicting yourself?
Have you considered that you have avoided considering some important factors?
Can you clarify your intent and how it includes the following factors (e.g. your lack of accurate information/your resistance/your unwarranted/excessive criticism (which is actually character assassination)?"
~~~~~~~~~~
Comes on a bit strong at the end, there, but I can envision settings in which those things could be said.
Thanks so much, Hope. I swear I'm going to write to this guy, as soon as I get my feet back on the ground.
-
Gee, well... you could fly out to Cali and take him for lunch :)
Stormy, I tried to find some other articles written by Dr. Gregory, but no success. There's plenty of intriguing info re: Pathways within the Table of Contents link, tho... if you're interested.
I agree, it's good stuff. I especially appreciate his questions which provide a medium for accountability.
Hope
-
Wild stuff... and so true. My mother spouts off all kinds of stuff, but if you ask here why she thinks that or where it came from, she has no idea. She fades off and digs for a new conversation piece... usually as charming as the last...
-
Jac, you don't deal with it. You leave the room or pick your fingernails and say "is it time for lunch i wonder?"
Answer: yes it is! 1.22 pm and adios 8)
-
hi hope,
I have read this so many times, as this reminds me of my workplace (and boss specifically). Thanks for posting it again. Everytime I read it, I come away with a better sense of what is the "right" thing to do in regards to narcissistic forces, or those trying to serve themselves at work. This excerpt is especially powerful for me:
In order to utilize this deep, inner reservoir of trust it is important to have highly developed tolerances for frustration, ambiguity and anxiety.
Things have gotten a little better for me at work since standing up for myself and my integrity and not allowing the craziness to affect me as much. It's tough when you work for a control freak. :shock:
jac - ick, that gave me a flashback to N Mom. That is exactly how a raging N responds!!
hugs,
p bean
-
Hi Pb,
Thanks for your comments, both here and in your other recent posts on the board. I'm learning alot by reading you. Your manner of getting to the roots ~ feelings and all ~ in various situations gives me alot of hope!
This business of developing "a strong tolerance for frustration, ambiguity, and anxiety" felt pretty overwhelming to me, at first.
I think there has to be plenty of testing (kinda like growing patience). One key for me, especially with regard to the ambiguity, is the relinquishing of control ~ similar to the releasing of control in resolving perfectionistic tendancies. It's like .... I don't need for every single duck to have his webby feet on the line at all times, especially when they're not my ducks in the first place.
I'm glad to hear that your work environment is not distressing you so much. It's a wonderful thing when improvement for "us" no longer depends so much on somebody else changing (if that makes sense). I know it's tough, tho.
Always good to hear from you, Pb.
Hugs,
Hope
-
Hope ,
I have a tolerance for n behavior .I See it now for what it is.Still there is always a comment from them (when one understands n behavior) to justify their behavior.
So investing love, trust and delight in living a life of love and understanding does not "work" with a n they do not get it and never will.
It is OK with me they will not get it that's just the way it is I am not fighting that battle .Thank you for this article.
Understanding what has happened in my life has freed me, well I feel released .Not to say I do not have challenges like everyone but It is easier now.
THE N IN MY LIFE DOES NOT KNOW ME AT ALL.And I really do not care.It seems I am more frustrating to him at this point.
The more I try to make myself clear the more he does not like it not the party line I am not in lock step.
But my soul has been released to live my live not to live my live for someone else's needs.Its not sad it is just the way it is .People that grow up in "dysfunction" have a wonderful opportunity to understand so much.Gift within the problem.
much gratitude for all I have learned here thank you for my children I am becoming a better parent and this is a good thing.
Blessings
moonlight
-
Hi, Jac,
Your response reminded me of an article I read recently which I'll post in it's entirety, because it seems so applicable to both of us.
It's from a list of articles I got from you several weeks ago, from which I've gleaned loads of practical info... thank you.
I'll be back in a bit to add to this with my own thoughts about how I've both received and given feedback, often with terrible results and no clue about how to proceed afterwards.
Hope
GIVING AND RECEIVING FEEDBACK
by Phil Rich, Ed.D., MSW
Feedback is a type of communication that we give or get. Sometimes, feedback is called "criticism," but this seriously limits its meaning.
Feedback is a way to let people know how effective they are in what they are trying to accomplish, or how they affect you. It provides a way for people to learn how they affect the world around them, and it helps us to become more effective. If we know how other people see us, we can overcome problems in how we communicate and interact with them. Of course, there are two sides to feedback: giving it, and receiving it.
Getting Feedback
Some people experience feedback as pure criticism and don't want to hear it. Others see it as spiritually crushing; a confirmation of their worthlessness. Still others only want to hear praise, but nothing that might suggest imperfection.
That's not the case for everyone, of course. Some people are willing to accept feedback and seek it out, even if it is sometimes disturbing, because they believe they can grow from it.
It comes down to whether you believe feedback will harm you or benefit you. This is not to say that we should always have to accept feedback or the manner in which it is sometimes given. We all have the right to refuse feedback, and we can expect feedback to be given in a respectful and supportive manner.
But for every positive and open way of accepting feedback, there's an opposite; a negative and closed manner which pushes feedback away and keeps it at bay.
Negative/Closed Style
Defensive: defends personal actions, frequently objects to feedback given.
Attacking: verbally attacks the feedback giver, and turns the table.
Denies: refutes the accuracy or fairness of the feedback.
Disrespectful: devalues the speaker, what the speaker is saying, or the speaker's right to give feedback.
Closed: ignores the feedback, listening blankly without interest.
Inactive listening: makes no attempt to "hear" or understand the meaning of the feedback.
Rationalizing: finds explanations for the feedback that dissolve any personal responsibility.
Patronizing: listens, but shows little interest.
Superficial: listens and agrees, but gives the impression that the feedback will have little actual effect.
Positive/Open Style
Open: listens without frequent interruption or objections.
Responsive: willing to hear what's being said without turning the table.
Accepting: accepts the feedback, without denial.
Respectful: recognizes the value of what is being said and the speaker's right to say it.
Engaged: interacts appropriately with the speaker, asking for clarification when needed.
Active listening: listens carefully and tries to understand the meaning of the feedback.
Thoughtful: tries to understand the personal behavior that has led to the feedback.
Interested: is genuinely interested in getting feedback.
Sincere: genuinely wants to make personal changes if appropriate.
Giving Feedback
The other end of feedback is giving it. Some people deliver feedback with relish; after all, it's easier to give advice than take it. Some use feedback as a weapon, or offer it as tit-for-tat. For others, feedback is a great way to be critical.
How you deliver feedback is as important as how you accept it, because it can be experienced in a very negative way. To be effective you must be tuned in, sensitive, and honest when giving feedback. Just as there are positive and negative approaches to accepting feedback, so too are there ineffective and effective ways to give it.
Ineffective/Negative Delivery
Attacking: hard hitting and aggressive, focusing on the weaknesses of the other person.
Indirect: feedback is vague and issues hinted at rather than addressed directly.
Insensitive: little concern for the needs of the other person.
Disrespectful: feedback is demeaning, bordering on insulting.
Judgmental: feedback is evaluative, judging personality rather than behavior.
General: aimed at broad issues which cannot be easily defined.
Poor timing: given long after the prompting event, or at the worst possible time.
Impulsive: given thoughtlessly, with little regard for the consequences.
Selfish: feedback meets the giver's needs, rather than the needs of the other person.
Effective/Positive Delivery
Supportive: delivered in a non-threatening and encouraging manner.
Direct: the focus of the feedback is clearly stated.
Sensitive: delivered with sensitivity to the needs of the other person.
Considerate: feedback is intended to not insult or demean.
Descriptive: focuses on behavior that can be changed, rather than personality.
Specific: feedback is focused on specific behaviors or events.
Healthy timing: given as close to the prompting event as possible and at an opportune time.
Thoughtful: well considered rather than impulsive.
Helpful: feedback is intended to be of value to the other person.
The Importance of Feedback
Feedback is a must for people who want to have honest relationships. A powerful and important means for communication, feedback connects us, and our behavior, to the world around us.
-
Hi, Moon,
If having a tolerance for N behavior means developing a thicker skin to not absorb N's toxin, I think that's absolutely necessary and a wonderful development.
You're right about there always being some justification by N. It's like the "I'm sorry, but you made me do it" rubbish. N always, always plays the victim of circumstances and forces beyond her/his control, it seems, which is really incongruous considering he lives his life behaving as though he's "god" incarnate.
Can't really invest in a bottomless pit at all. Anything poured in just drains out, so what we give to N needs to have no strings attached, lest we get pulled in after him. Been there, huh. Not going back. ((((((((Moon))))))))
Moon, N's don't know anyone because they don't know themselves. I'm so glad you're done trying to influence him and your family will benefit from these gifts within the problem which... is no longer a problem :)
Love,
Hope
-
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HOPE)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((STORM)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((EVERYONE))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
HAPPY DANCE WITH STORM
SUPER ARTICLE :D :D :D ps 2nd meeting with dad and no meltdown
moon
-
Hi Jac,
Trying to ensure that I'm hearing you correctly here.
You said, My point of view is when it comes to relationships it's all about two things, and the first is directly connected to the last.
TRUST and INTENTION.
IMO in order to determine the presence of the latter (whether someone is engaging in positive feedback/delivery or negative feedback/delivery (not an N, whose behavior is consistantly obvious) one has to have a measure of the former, (solid belief that the intention of the person is positive) .
So, when a person is giving you feedback, you gauge his intentions based on the level of trust you have that his intentions are positive?
In addition, I'm hearing you say that your belief that the person's intentions are positive must be quite sure... "solid"... and I'm wondering, how do you determine this? In other words, what are your inital criteria for establishing that a person is trustworthy?
Quote: As humans, even at our best we might not speak clearly, in a properly functionally communicative way or with enough clarity - now I won't even add in if we're upset.
I agree, Jac. I would add that not only may we not speak clearly and appropriately, we may lose our ability to hear and receive clearly and appropriately.
Quote: If Person A can point out flaw in the delivery or receipt of feedback to Person B, and there is a foundation of trust, then Person B can receive it, even if it isn't delivered picture perfectly because of the trust in that person's intention. Even if it is not readilly discernable, the dialogue can continue until both parties feel heard and understood - feel better.
I am wondering how you determine that this goal of feeling "heard and understood" has been met?
I'm asking this specifically in the case where both parties have been heard by the other and yet the disagreement continues.
I can see a problem here if Person A's idea of having been "heard and understood" is that she's been able to convince Person B that A's view is correct. If B says, "Well, I still disagree, but that's ok" and A refuses to accept that, it seems that an impasse has been reached.
Re: Even if it is not readilly discernable, the dialogue can continue until both parties feel heard and understood - feel better.
Even if what is not readily discernable?
Re: I haven't had much experience with communication like this in regards to conflict. It has been very far and few between but when it happens between friends - loved ones, even co-workers, it's: M A G I C and when it doesn't happen it's: T R A G I C
Would you please define "Magic" and "Tragic" in other terms?
Thanks.
Hope
-
Hi, Jac,
I really wanted to try to understand what you're saying, so I've reviewed these posts with my husband. Thought it would help to get his view, since our marriage is the only benchmark I have for a "normal", healthy adult relationship. Plus, I highly value the way he sees beneath the surface of matters and then will tell me the truth, regardless of whether it's what I might want to hear. It's exactly that sort of insight and accountability that seemed needed here, lest I get off track. It's quite easy for me to fall into old habits and get deluged by emotional responses, losing sight of the reality of a situation. [ As a side note, this marriage is the first time I've experienced true mutuality... a sincere desire to know and to be known, in all honesty. Now that I've seen what a real marriage can be like, I recognize that my other (non-N) adult relationships have been quite shallow, seemingly based on a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" mentality of keeping up appearances, keeping the peace, not rocking the boat, and basically staying out of each other's way so we could each get what we want without the work of growing a real relationship.]
Anyway, going over this with him helped me to see more clearly that you and I have very different views about both intimacy and conflict. It's very liberating to acknowledge that I can respect your right to maintain your own view without adopting that view for myself. Correspondingly, you can choose to respect my right to maintain my view without adopting it as your own... or not. It's wonderful to have that free choice.
One of the things I most appreciate about my relationship with my husband is that he and I can disagree without either one of us feeling mortally wounded or despairing. We don't see everything eye to eye and we don't expect to. I'm just thankful that for the first time in my life, I don't feel overpowering fear when I express disagreement with him. Neither of us requires the other to be 100 percent in tune at all times and to me, that is the basis of genuine respect and true intimacy.
When there is conflict, which there is bound to be in any relationship, sometimes he and I resolve the matter through compromise. Sometimes we pick an entirely different option which was never the first choice of either of us, and that works out even better. Sometimes we find that there is no solution other than ... we must agree to disagree, and let the matter rest. But however it works out, we're both satisfied, because neither one of us has hung his hat on the outcome. Our identities and value are not wrapped up in whether or not the other one sees things our way or even understands our feelings. I think that's healthy and right & now that I've experienced it, I know that this is the sort of relationship I want.
At this point, I'm lost in all the references in your post to Party A and Party B, but when I say that it's "ok to disagree", it's not because I think I've "figured the other person out". It is, in fact, because I don't expect a relationship to be free of disagreements and often problems are only aggravated by continuing to talk about them.
When I say that I have nothing further to contribute to a conversation, this is not
"designed to silence the other person", but simply a statement of my own mental-emotional condition at that time, which is = I have run out of thoughts/ideas/words which might be of any benefit toward resolution. I think it's not only okay to call a halt to discussion when one person deems it necessary, but that it's wise to do so.
I do not want to be in a relationship where one person insists that the dialogue continue beyond a point where I have requested a halt. I have been in such relationships and found them oppressive and harmful, because they don't allow me time to gather my thoughts and emotions, but instead force me to take another ride on a rollercoaster which has already made me dizzy.
Personally, I must take a realistic view of relationships in my own life, which to me means not viewing them in terms of miraculous or tragic, but simply pairings of two flawed individuals who both have sensitive areas which will disrupt harmony at times. I used to have what I'd describe as a fairy tale/operatic view of life... everything all good/all bad and lots of magical thinking, until I discovered the many gray areas involved, particularly where gauging another human being's motivation is concerned. That is something I have had to face up to and admit that I am in no position to do. I'm not saying that you do this, only sharing that I have made a point to beware of such thinking. So now, I am committed to continuing to practice NOT judging someone's motivation until it becomes second nature, because I've seen how much damage and misunderstanding that creates. I still have a long way to go with this, because old habits die hard, but thankfully I have an accountability partner who reminds me when I slip.
My view is that part of my share of the responsibility in these reality-based relationships includes the establishment of my own boundaries. I do not believe that intimacy in relationship includes a responsibility on my part to make the other person "feel better". I don't believe that true intimacy is even possible under those terms because it places too much burden on another and denies individual responsibility. I don't want any part of a relationship that's enmeshed in such a way. Accountability is the other huge factor for me. When I'm off base, my husband tells me so and as much as I might not want to hear it, I trust that God is using him to set me straight. He allows me to do the same and there is no tragedy in it. In fact, we both survive and intimacy actually is increased, rather than destroyed. I don't tell my husband or anybody else that they should try to make me feel better in order to prove that they care for me, because I know that nobody but God working in my own heart and spirit can make that happen. I do hope that you'll be able to feel better in every way, Jac, even though you and I don't share the same perspective, and of course I'll continue to keep you in prayer.
Hope
-
[unhelpful post deleted...Hops]
-
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Okay.
Not my conversation. Does that mean i can't ask questions? I guess not.
What's happening please? I'm confused.
Jac, did you start your new conflict thread becasue of what happened here on this thread? I posted to your new thread. But is it to do with this here?
And I was really confused about your post above because i couldn't see what you were talking about when you quoted:
Quote from: Certain Hope on September 26, 2006, 01:33:17 PM
lol... I dunno... words/expressions can certainly resonate with people differently, depending on their individual perspective.
You're absolutely right about trusting someone's good intentions making all the difference, I think.
then I realised that this quote comes from a conversation on the other board which I'm taking part in with Hope and i think she's directly addressing me in that quote, from something I said to her. It's the thread: The Emotional Christian (not just for Christians, tho) on the what helps board.
So I want to ask, why are you quoting that here - do you think Hope is making comments about you in other threads? Or did the quote just seem relevant to you in light of your conversation here? or another reason i can't imagine?
I'm asking these questions because one way to not resolve any conflict is to leave the room! And Jac, I see you leaving this room. That's how i see threads, as rooms, i've said it before.
Maybe you don't want to be on this thread any more; fine. But then that makes me wonder how you're going to react to replies on your new thread, and then I get a headache. Life's too short Jac!
Anyway, there you go. Just nosing around this door and ready to take my nose elsewhere if it aint welcome.
Oh damn :x, and playing the role of go-between again. It's a bad habit I have from wayyyyy back. Perhaps saying that will free me to see it as positive? I'm not holding my breath on that one. The go-between usually gets it in the neck, I know that.
-
Jac,
You and I are in agreement then ~ continuation of this discussion is counterproductive.
Portia,
Thanks for clarifying that my words were quoted out of context.
Hope
-
Hope, well i guess that I did clarify that your words came from another thread - i did that as much for myself as anyone. I was confused by it and then noticed that i recognised the quote from our other conversation.
Jac, actually I'm still confused by that quote, it seems really odd to me that you quoted it here. But I'll be content with being confused if this thread/conversation/whatever is over.
I don't know if this is conflict or an agreement to disagree. At least there seems to be an agreement on what's productive and not, so that seems reasonable!
Okay, I'm outta here but willing to return if anyone wants it.
Take care both.
-
Hi Jac
It's late, I'm tired and had an exhausting day. Still, thought I'd reply.
I believe your input here is counter-productive.
Counter-productive to what exactly?? What is the objective? I have zero idea. I thought this was a place where we discussed stuff. Is my speaking counter-productive to discussion?
You don't know the background of the conversation that Hope and I were having, or the history.
I don't, very true. I better keep myself out of any threads I don't know the background to hey? Yes, sure will. That sure silences me, thanks.
What you are doing will only prolong this conversation, which with all due respect does not personally involve you.
Hell's teeth Jac! people are having private conversations now? That others can't comment on or join? Nobody told me but thanks for telling me.
I would ask now that you not insert yourself into this conversation that has come an end.
Am i doing that now? I'm responding to you, not your 'conversation'.
Thank for respecting my boundary,
Yah, I'm not inserting myself any more (Jac, that sounds quite riske). Over and out. long day don't feel too good. Had enough quite frankly but hey, nobody asked me about my day right? No problem. I'm outta typing outta words just another day on a blue-green planet 'Night
-
Sorry you had a bad day, Portia.
Hope you rest well.
Hugs
Hope
-
Hi Portia,
Because this is a public forum, you are free to post or ask questions on any thread. If there is a discussion that is opaque and you want to ask for more information, imho it is not wrong to ask questions. (If two people prefer that others don't participate in their conversation, they can say so. It might be more peace-inducing to say it up front...but they may not have been aware that this is where they would wind up.) At that point, I think it could help to move things to PMs, but that's not a rule either.
There is never a guarantee that a person who's upset may not respond with anger or by scolding. The challenge is not to take it personally. Sometimes when I'm asked to be quiet, not participate, etc., I feel shamed. That doesn't necessarily mean I did anything wrong...it means I was well-trained to feel shame when someone corrects me or tells me I've made a mistake.
There's a part of me that even after all these years of work will still pop in and say, of course, the person who tells me to shut up is right, and there was something wrong with me for speaking.
I remember a T telling me once:
In a healthy system, you are always free to comment.
That remark has always stayed with me.
Really sorry you had a crappy day, P. You are not alone on this blue planet.
(((((P)))))
Hops
PS--Jac and Hope, I won't comment on your conversation. But I'd like to say I can imagine it must be very painful to lose your friendship, after such happy connection. I'm sorry.
-
Hops - what a kind and nurturing post. This is a perfect example of naternal mediation that is so needed in our world and in my life. I'm going to copy this and learn from it. The conflict made my heart sad but I couldn't find a way to say something that sounded anything other than meddlesome, but you have spoken beautifully here. Your words feel like a Balm in Gilead - "to make the wounded whole" - thank you, I needed these words on this low day - GS
-
((((((((GS)))))))))))
Sending you bright sunshine.
Hops
-
Receiving Hops - ((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))
Many thanks. - GS
-
Portia,
I saw a preview for a stunning show called Blue Planet last night...whaaaaaaaaaaaales, magnificent whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaales..........
Said to myself I am very glad I share the planet with whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaales and (((Portia))).
Hops
-
Hops yes, Blue Planet, made by BBC Bristol, excellent stuff. Wonderful! gets to your awe-gland 8)
Thanks for your kind wishes ((((Hope)))) and ((((Hops)))) my 5 minutes is up! Best wishes, P
-
I'd like to say I can imagine it must be very painful to lose your friendship, after such happy connection.
I haven't been following any of your discussion but I can tell you about something which happened to me during my worst mental illness.
I became extremely involved with my friend M who was going through a separation and subsequent divorce from a NPD. Much of the closeness was empathy which we had both been short of, plus where we live is a rather dry community for free spirits. At some point a physical attraction developed from this which I know now was not a genuine thing on my part- I have seen her many times since and have no sexual feelings for her! It was a byproduct of mania. For her it was a flirtation as she got up courage to believe she could have other relationships outside of her horrible marriage, her husband had trashed her terribly and she was just practising her seduction skills!
Well one day we had a few drinks and were somewhat out of control and I kissed her, not exactly sexually but definitely over her boundary, and she fled.
We had touched a point of boundary-setting not just between us but in defining ourselves I can see now. At the time it was just confusing and we were both ashamed, for being out of control, and for potentially wrecking our lovely friendship.
Because I was the one who was acting out the most- I kissed her plus I knew it was not a very kind thing for me to do- if she had fallen in love with me I didn't really want that- so I took the responsibility for what happened and periodically apologised and said 'I know we can't be as close now but can we leave the door open & keep in touch'. She responded 'yes, but not now'.
At first it was touchy and we argued a couple of times because she didn't get the severity of my illness, and also what I realise now is we were pushing each other's boundaries and being judgemental or interfering, some of the things we talked about we weren't giving each other support we were telling what to do, subtly criticising etc, anyway at the time it seemed like everything we said irritated or misunderstood the other.
But there was a genuine love and affection for each other underneath, and as I say this empathy we had shared.
Well, despite all this and the fact I did not see her for a long time, we both held each other in our hearts. And time healed the shame and my illness and she went off to have a raunchy sexual affair with a guy and I did tons of therapy and avoided guys...and we agreed to differ on that and recognised we had become polar opposites on it.
What I am saying I guess is what I said about something else another time: nothing is written in tablets of stone. It's not necessarily permanent when a connection falters. It's not irreparable when boundary-setting seems more important than the overall connection.
I never knew this really- I was raised that it was ALL or NOTHING. The sequence of events which even now makes me cringe somewhat became a very liberating experience and led to a deeper connection in the end which was- we are very different and we can't always be intense, but we do genuinely love and admire and remain for each other, in a less perfect but really more perfect way! We had lunch last week and it was very pleasant to relax and enjoy someone's company who has seen me at my worst and loves me anyway...
Ok, I don't have time for church today so that can be my 'confessional'. I look back now and just roll my eyes at myself...but I am not penitent or seeking absolution because even writing it all down I can smile and see there was no 'sin' there really, just people being human. Indulgence would be nice though :)
-
I feel close to my best friend because we've had some real struggles over boundaries (me wanting more privacy than she, basically) and we even went to a counselor together once...
We had to redraw some boundaries and go through some awkward months, but at the base, we really do care about each other and will always be there for each other when the other needs help, and that means a lot in this life (especially if you're without family support).
I also think we're closer because we worked our way past a rift, and forgave in both directions, and found a way to coexist with new boundaries, and we don't take stuff as personally as we used to. I have a lot of respect for her.
Write, I can't see one thing wrong or wicked about your dance with intimacy with her. And I think it's wonderful that you still have the friendship, likely stronger than even (if not as intense).
One good thing for my friend and me is that we both reached out to strengthen other, separate friendships too. She has her own women's group, I have the board and a few other friends she's not met.
I'm happy you two worked it out...it's a good story. Somebody loves you.
Buddhist people are so calming to me...I think it's a wonderful practice.
I'm going to fight off the desire to stay in bed all day and go to church.
Not sure how indulgence applies to lapsed Catholics, but you've got mine!
Hops
-
Not sure how indulgence applies to lapsed Catholics, but you've got mine!
Thank you.
We're all in my culture 'lapsed Catholics' really...
Fortunately G_d doesn't much care about religion!
Hope you enjoy church, I have been enjoying the UU s again since I decided to be more descriminating and only participate in what feels right to me, also to be a Christian Unitarian and personally circumvent the 'magic thinking' vs. knowledge thing which UU s struggle with!
Oh here's another resource for empowering your employment situation Hops http://www.wishcraft.com/
The whole book is free here and perhaps more in tune with your practical side as opposed to my abstractness! I especially like the mingled concept of 'dreamers who do'
Hope everyone is enjoying Sunday. I'm doing 'church' on the beach later- the sound of the waves can be my prayer and calm.
-
Hi
There are a couple of things I’d like to clarify.
Hope and Hops: I didn’t have a bad or crappy day on Thursday, I had a really interesting, good, thought-provoking day but it was exhausting and long! Did you think I was posting in a sad/angry/annoyed/upset way? I wasn’t.
Hops:
I agree with you that anyone is free here to post or ask questions on any thread. My earlier post was trying to say that to Jac by way of questions; because I can throw a pebble in a pond and let it go.
There is never a guarantee that a person who's upset may not respond with anger or by scolding. The challenge is not to take it personally. Sometimes when I'm asked to be quiet, not participate, etc., I feel shamed. That doesn't necessarily mean I did anything wrong...it means I was well-trained to feel shame when someone corrects me or tells me I've made a mistake.
((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))
I hope you lose this Hops. I don’t feel like this: I don’t feel shamed and I haven’t done anything wrong, in my opinion. If people respond to me with anger or scolding, I see that as an opportunity for them, and me.
Anyone can try to correct me or tell me I’ve made a mistake, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
Not taking something personally is not the same ignoring someone who is being disrespectful and treading on someone’s rights. Not taking it personally doesn’t mean not speaking or acting. Not taking it personally means attempting to evaluate the situation realistically and without emotional reactions, I think.
There's a part of me that even after all these years of work will still pop in and say, of course, the person who tells me to shut up is right, and there was something wrong with me for speaking.
((((((((((((Hops))))))))) hope you can kick that unhelpful voice into the long grass.
In a healthy system, you are always free to comment.
I agree! :D Preferably with respect for other people's right to do the same. 8)
Write, I agree with you here:
nothing is written in tablets of stone. It's not necessarily permanent when a connection falters. It's not irreparable when boundary-setting seems more important than the overall connection.
Boundaries, often misunderstood I feel. I’ll say again that boundaries are internal and cannot be forced on to other people. A boundary acted upon involves the person setting the boundary with themselves: it does not mean forcing someone else to do something. Anyone can request that I do something or not do it: if they have a boundary, it means that if I go against their wishes, they will act. Their boundaries do not make me act. Their boundaries make them act.
-
ok Portia .... "long day, exhausted, don't feel so good" = translated to "bad" in my head.
I thought you sounded sad, not angry, and just wanted to comfort you.
Thanks for the previous hugs.
(((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))) ~ delayed return hug
Hope
-
Thank you for the hugs Hope, I did appreciate them and do so now too! I had had enough that day, much talking, thinking and interacting - it filled my head up so it needed sleep. Maybe I was sad too, exactly at the time of posting, sad about what I'd read; and what I said was as ever intended for who I address: I guess I can be confusing sometimes because I will change tone and style depending on who I'm talking to. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. All attempts at communication have potential problems I think. When in Spain I try to speak Spanish and sometimes it works, sometimes I have to resort to body language, gesticulating, pointing, smiling and generally making a fool of myself. But it's still communication :D (((((((Hope)))))))
-
Anyone can request that I do something or not do it: if they have a boundary, it means that if I go against their wishes, they will act. Their boundaries do not make me act. Their boundaries make them act.
yup. I think having boundaries is so you don't have to do emotional cut-off too often & so you don't trash anyone else.
When I was still traumatised I built a giant wall around me though- took time to trust people enough to come anywhere near.
I still do this now sometimes, and then there's the whole 'mute withdrawal is a major INFJ defence' thing!
-
'mute withdrawal is a major INFJ defence'
Now I get it, I understand one thing I haven't about you before. ((((((((((((((((((write))))))))))))))))) (glad you're not mute today)
(If I'm mute, I'm more likely thinking, or busy, rather than feeling! I wonder what the INTJ defence is? Major intellectualising with a spot of dictating? :?)
-
I would prefer to walk away and think about what to do next so it suits me, it's also extremely effective at putting the ball firmly in someone else's court when there's nothing else you can do!
I don't do the stropping off in a huff thing much now I'm getting er old- the Bette Davis/Baby Jane behaviour makes me cringe, though I work with a few people who are a bit old to talk with a baby voice and tantrum to get their way and still do it!
Major intellectualising with a spot of dictating?
:D
George Lucas is an INTJ, makes me wonder what he'd be like if he hadn't read Joseph Campbell!
-
Really glad I misunderstood, P.
I had thought you were quite hurt...wasn't familiar with that tone from you.
But, natch, I was probably projecting how I personally feel when I am invited to buzz off. :)
So, happies, hugs all 'round...
Hops
-
Write
I would prefer to walk away and think about what to do next so it suits me, it's also extremely effective at putting the ball firmly in someone else's court when there's nothing else you can do!
Or nothing else you want to do? 8)
I don't do the stropping off in a huff thing much now I'm getting er old- the Bette Davis/Baby Jane behaviour makes me cringe, though I work with a few people who are a bit old to talk with a baby voice and tantrum to get their way and still do it!
Patience with folks like that is something I wish for. One man in my life doesn’t use a baby voice but he sure does tantrum. Started to ignore it and it seems to work, so far. :?
Hi Hops, thanks for your reply. Do you think Jac was only telling me to buzz off? Buzz off might have read like: “Thanks for your post. I’m not continuing this conversation and I won’t be answering you” which would be to the point and stating the position. If someone states their position that plainly, why should anyone be hurt? “Please buzz off” – “oh, okay!” would be two people interacting with mutual respect I think. Something completely different happened here I think, not that I want to analyse it in black and white, but to say Hops, what you see, I see differently.
My tone. I didn’t want to have a tone to the post but I can read two possible interpretations and I wish it didn’t have a tone, I wish it was simply logical questions (which it mainly is, I think). If you look back at my earlier first post, do you think I was acting as go-between, inserting myself between Jac and Hope, trying for reconciliation? Don’t want to prolong this unnecessarily but wondered if these thoughts might interest you Hops; if not, I’m happy to let it go :D. and hugs (((((Hops)))))
-
Now I'm wondering, what is the "ISTJ" thing to do?
And if you were a certain combination of letters years ago, in the midst of a horrendous sort of life upheaval, are you necessarily the same jumble of letters now?
((((((((((Portia))))))))) I am liking this hug fest :)
You didn't ask me, but I never did think you were acting as a go between. You did, however, state that it was an hold habit of yours from the past to act as such, but ... seems best to me not to hold somebody to an admitted proclivity (almost said weakness, then chickened out) from the past.??.... Anyhow, I didn't assume anything about your intentions here, true to my new, improved, never-try-to-judge(aka guess)-another's-motivations method of relating. And no, I won't ask ya whether you're proud of me for that, although it would be ok with me if you were :D
Ain't communication grand??
Hope
-
Wall, P...I'm pretty comfortable with I just plain old missed it.
I think I was probably projecting...yep, I'm sure I was.
I think with this one I'll skip more analysis, if that's okay. Ready to pick up new threads and up the quilting bee...
hugs,
Hops