Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on September 25, 2006, 09:07:35 PM
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Hey Kelly.
This one's for you. I have seen this dicussion brought up in various places at various times, so I thought we could break it down... especially as a lot of us have experince with both.
As an alcoholic, I was obviously self-centered and goal-oriented... the goal being how to get drunk without people bugging me. At the same time, I couldn't understand why people didn't like me and want to be my friend... you can't see what is and what isn't when your only focus in life is where and when you will drink. I didn't do things for attention... I just planned my entire life around the bottle, which meant I was neglectful to my family (I did what I needed to do and didn't put an ounce more energy into them and had no joy).
Ns crave attention the way we crave the bottle. Does their mind work like ours???? I have no idea. My mind had both concious and unconscious pulls. Sometimes I actively planned, and sometimes it was spur-of-the-moment. I always knew I was going to go overboard, though, and I always had a second voice in my head... a voice of reason. I don't think an N has a voice of reason...
I am throwing this out for you all to pick up on... Any ideas?????
Love, Beth
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Hi;
I hope it's ok for my to stick my 2 cents in, even tho I'm not Kelly, because this is a topic I've thought about a lot. About five years ago one of my best friends died of causes related to her alcoholism. She was a drunk the whole time I knew her with the exception of one year when she was sober - not in recovery, still in denial, but sober. Contrasting her behavior during that year when she was sober with her drinking behavior was enlightening. She behaved in destructive and dishonest ways when she was drinking, but those behaviors and traits mostly vanished when she wasn't drinking. Interestingly, they were behaviors that I also saw in my non-alcoholic, very narcissistic Nmother. Long before I had ever heard of NPD, I noticed that my mother had a number of what seemed like alcoholic traits. Now I recognize that my friend actually had narcissistic traits. For whatever reason, it seems that alcoholism brings out the narcissist in people.
Here are some of the ways my alcoholic friend was like my Nmom:
1) She was EXTREMELY manipulative. She engaged in emotional blackmail, and she would try to force favors and gifts on me in order to obligate me. That is SO like my Nmom.
2) She craved attention. She wanted me THERE.
3) She demeaned. For example, her house was a pigsty when she was drinking (this was alcohol-related, but not narcissistic). If I voiced any objection to it, she would make a snide comment about how sterile and bare my home was, so naturally I had a skewed perception of what constituted neatness. Those mean hit-and-run jabs are very narcissistic. Someone on here once remarked that narcissists had a special meanness. So do drunks.
4) She denied. Ohhhh boy did she deny. So did my Nmom. Both did things they knew were shameful and both worked very hard to make those things OK in their own minds.
5) She had co-morbid compulsive behaviors. My Nmom buys things for herself compulsively. My friend was a clutter junkie. When she was sober she cleaned stuff up and threw out worthless broken crap. When she drank, that worthless broken crap was a treasure she might fix one day, and then it would be valuable.
6) She was a liar. Unlike my Nmom who deliberately, knowingly lied, my friend lied out of convictions instilled by her denial. Other alcoholics I've known have also been great liars, and like narcissists, they exploit every facet of lying - lying in advance of something going wrong, leaving out crucial information, "spinning", outright lying.
7) She blamed. My friend was having lots of problems because of her drinking, and NONE of it was HER fault. She blamed everyone else for everything. That is very typical of narcissists, who are great blamers.
/8) She was a tornado. She left a trail of emotionally thrashed people desperately trying to fix the problems she caused and then ignored.
9) She was creepy. Like many children of narcissistic mothers, I find my mother really repellant, especially when she's digging for emotional pain in other people. She gets an extremely focused and avid look, and she's really happy. My friend was having a serious love affair with her booze that also struck me as being intensely creepy in a parallel way. She loved it. She savored it. She relished every sweet drop of it. Obviously this isn't as bad as what my Nmom did, because her inappropriate adoration wasn't dependent on my suffering, but when my friend was drinking in front of me, I had same sense of being in the presence of a monster that fed and loved and destroyed all at once. I was an unwilling voyeur of a terribly unnatural coupling.
10) She was arrogant. It took me a really long time to figure out why on earth my friend was alcoholic. I kept trying to place it in the context of self-medication. What suffering could have caused her to turn to booze? In reality she had led a charmed life until she started drinking. She had a wonderful and supportive family who stood by her to the end. She had many talents she had been able to use in a dream career. She had excellent health and good looks. What on earth could have led her to drink? I finally realized her fatal flaw: she was arrogant. She had started drinking because she was slightly shy (she was by no means pathologically shy) and alcohol helped her have a good time at parties. She saw no reason not to recapture that good feeling any time she wanted. Most people are aware of alcohol's potential for abuse and cut themselves off after a couple of drinks, but in her opinion, they were weak. She was from a good family, an elite family. She would brag to me that her family had owned land and held slaves before the Civil War! They were Quality. They were not the kind of people who suffered from alcoholism. She wasn't some trash wino. Oh no. Not HER.
This arrogance was just dumbfounding to me (not least because ownership of slaves is not something to flaunt). How could anyone think they were immune to the destructiveness of alcohol? But she did. And by the time it was obvious to her that her confidence was misplaced, she was so addicted she couldn't quit.
My Nmom ended up being an abusive parent because of the same kind of arrogance. HER mother was abusive, but SHE was going to SHOW HER! It would be DIFFERENT for her! She rushed into marriage, she had a baby right away and, not surprisingly, she was just as abusive as her own mother, because that abusive way of relating was all she knew. Nowhere in her thinking was there a little warning voice that said "But what if you AREN'T different? What if you abuse too? Maybe you should slow down, think this through, get some therapy to deal with your anger at your mother?" Oh no. Not HER.
Unlike my mother, my friend was still a lovely woman in many ways, especially when she wasn't drinking, but even when she was. When she was not drinking, she didn't have a lot of narcissistic characteristics aside from her arrogance. I've known other drunks who always very unpleasant people. I wonder, when they dry out, are they still narcissistic? I've heard people talk about "dry drunks." Is a dry drunk a narcissist who doesn't drink?
Chris2
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Chris,
Although I mentioned Kelly, because she had questions on this subject, I by no means meant to exclude anyone.
What a wonderful breakdown of alcoholism. You should write a book on it - really. I can identify personally with all of that, having fallen into all of it. And I can match all of those quirks to my neighbor who is now an active drunk in denial (but her lies are usually dumb, because she can't remember what she said).
Yes, I believe that a dry drunk is a person who is sober but angry and still arogant. It isn't until we get to the underlying cause and find spirituality and giving that we get beyond ourselves. And it's a forever process.
I can believe that your drunk husband loved you S&S. I loved my husband, but wanted to prove that he didn't love me, so I could fulfill my worst-case-scenario. We don't have a lot of self-esteem.
I think you are so right that an N can never love...
Love, Beth
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(Me too, S&S.) Comparing H1 (alcoholic who although he had a mean streak did have some sense of conscience, and respect for me) to H2 (lying manipulative charming N who wooed me like crazy).
Hi Chris:
My understanding is that a "dry drunk" is an alcoholic who is not drinking (could be years) but has not dealt with the underlying emotional issues related to their disease.
Hops
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Hi Chris:
My understanding is that a "dry drunk" is an alcoholic who is not drinking (could be years) but has not dealt with the underlying emotional issues related to their disease.
Hops
Yep. No longer drinkin' but still stinkin' thinkin'.
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Hi Guys: Been too busy to post the last couple of days..........I can read it on my phone but find I am a danger to other drivers when I am trying to read these posts and drive! :shock:
I was a part of two different threads that were going down this road - Thanks Beth for starting this thread on THIS topic.
I, too, have a very best friend in the midst of terrible alcoholism. We met in second grade and she was the most pretty, best athlete, most popular, her dad was on the City Council, cheerleading captain, smart, you name it, she was IT.........
We partied in high school A LOT!! All of us. We grew up in the late 70s and smoked pot and did acid and ate mushrooms and drank!! It was "Party On Garth!!!" But when I got married and had my first child, I just knew I had to straighten up. I had a child to think of and needed to be responsible. My friend, on the other hand, kept partying. At our 10 year class reunion she offered me some cocaine. That was almost 20 years ago and this gal is STILL doing coke!! She is a raging alcoholic and drug addict. Her moods are over the top. Her attitudes are Narcissistic. When she has a boyfriend she expects cards and calls and dinners (with lots of wine, martinis, etc.) When the guy doesn't call she gets drunk and calls him and spews on him then hangs up on him. Then when he backs off she gets all devastated and threatens to commit suicide, etc. The same pattern happens over and over and over again. She, too has a love affair with alcohol. I told her a sober mind is a rational mind.............that she needs to go to rehab. She says that drugs and alcohol are all she has....................................she's totally self absorbed. But she loves. Nmom only loves herself. She kind of loves my kids............................but not me. Nothing I do is alright!!
So what do I have to say about that?? Just that both alcoholics AND Narcissists drain you with all their stuff!!
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Yes, Kelly, all of what you said is true (and if you are driving now, put down the phone and read this later :lol:)
With alcoholism, the point is to be left alone with the alcohol and yet somehow still control other people... but not to be mean to them on purpose...
I think here we talk about MALIGNANT narcissism... where you are a Narcissist who is out to hurt someone to your own advantage.
Drinking, I hurt people... but it was in the path of the hurricane as it were.
My mother ENJOYS making people feel lesser... I can see how she enjoys bossing around salesclerks, or managing to tick me off. She starts in on my dad when she gets bored. Anything to get attention, even if it is negative attention.
What do you think, is that a difference. It is a really fine line here.
R/Beth
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Jeeze, kelly, this sounds like borderline personality disorder, with all the drama and sucide threats. I'm amazed she's still alive...
I'm not so sure you mother loves your kids. They're small, young, easy to deceive and manipulate, easy to control. Poor little guys.
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Hi all,
My n father was an alcoholic and my nexfil is still an alcoholic (on and off the wagon for 50 years) at 87 years old. Of the 6 children produced by those 2 men, only 1 became an alcoholic and he gave it up in his 20's and is now almost 59 years old. My brother has never had a drink. I was bound and determined to never marry an alcoholic because of how it affected my life. But what I did do unwittingly, was marry a sex addict--probably 2 of them--so being raised by an n does take away your ability to discern healthy partners in many cases, or even attract you to them.
So, I don't think the only addiction that n's demonstrate is alcohol. I think they have a propensity to have addictive personalities and that can present itself as addictions to drugs (legal and otherwise), sex, gambling, shopping, even coffee or exercise, or a combination. Certainly not all people with addictions are n, and I don't know which comes first--the chicken or the egg--but it may again have much to do with the personality, sensitivities, birth order, etc., of the individual involved.
B.
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Chris: You did hit that one right on the head!! You either have a lot in your head or have these things written down somewhere!! And Storm?? My friend might be borderline from years of drug and alcohol abuse. I believe her brain chemistry is so messed up that she wouldn't know rational if it hit her in the face. Wish we could force her into detox but her father enables her. She spends - he gives her money. She doesn't go to work - he gives her money. We tried to do an intervention early this month when she threatened suicide. Her dad told her if she didn't go into rehab within two weeks he would sell the house (it's his, she just lives there....) Well she never went into rehab and he never put the house on the market!!
Also, the reason I went to alanon is because I wanted to figure out why I always choose men with addictions. The last two are alcoholics and my first husband was a sex addict!!! For some reason I go for men who are "broken." So part of me thinks that people who were raised by Ns choose some dysfunctional spouse - or they become extremely dysfunctional themselves. Almost like Adult Children of Alcoholics - thriving on chaos - needing rejection or drama to feel normal???
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Brigid: I know that my nmom was the first born at the tail end of the depression. Never quite pretty enough. Never quite good enough. So she ran off and got married to a bad boy and had my brother at 18. Divorced. Then she became a Christian. This drove her life for awhile.........................then she met an older man on a train that asked her if she went to college - she said no and he said she was still young so why not? So when I was 3 she went to college. That is when her SELF became more important than me or my brother. She was addicted to feeling smart and was on a road to better herself. She got into a company at ground floor and experienced huge success. She started making massive money. In her 30s she had me and my brother but she was gone all the time for her career. She didn't care anything about us - it was all her.......................all that to say that the train started in 1963 and it has been an unstoppable locomotive since....................now she is pushing 70 and I think she is realizing she is not at the top of her game anymore. Face lift. Tummy tuck. Beautiful home. Self promotion. Giving huge gifts to places but wanting for sure to be listed as a top benefactor.........etc. etc. We must present ourselves at the perfect, rich, Christian family. Well, that all backfired on her because her neglect and self centeredness angered my brother and I and we both went off the deep end. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL, NMOM!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL!! You have to have balance in your life in all areas or the imbalance will come back to bite you!!!!!
So the addiction that drives Nmom? Success. Work. Beauty. To be the best. To be the most successful. To be well thought of. And she's pretty good at it but the house of cards is crumbling...........
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My N/asperger father has fancied himself an alcoholic. I think it was an attempt to put a label on himself to explain his problems, and possibly a way to make himself feel special. It didn't lead to any specific treatment or disciplines.
He has sometimes abused alcohol, although I don't believe it ever reached the level of qualifying as full blown addiction. It was more of an periodic indulgence, alcohol abuse rather than full blown alcoholism. Under the influence of alcohol, he did get nastier and less "introverted" in his narcissism (I now realize).
According to addiction expert, Doug Thorburn, narcissism is one of the possible symptoms of alcohol abuse. Alcoholics don't necessarily start out as N's, but as the illness progresses they quite often display narcissism and other mental disturbances such as depression. So it seems there are several possible scenarios. A "normal" person could become narcissistic due to alcoholism. A "born N" could become worse. For some, the mental problems disappear when the alcohol use is stopped.
Thorburn's books are well worth reading BTW. His website is www.justsaynotoaddicts.com
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Welcome TJR100: Isn't Aspergers a type of autism? It would be a weird life to be raised by an Aspergers/Narcissist Drunk!! Sometimes I think my husband is just a raging drunk and isn't in full blown alcoholism either. I think he is obsessive/compulsive enough that he kind of gets in a rut. Same thing week in and week out - habit - routine. When I called him on it he has been great every since!! Wonder how long that will last??
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According to addiction expert, Doug Thorburn, narcissism is one of the possible symptoms of alcohol abuse. Alcoholics don't necessarily start out as N's, but as the illness progresses they quite often display narcissism and other mental disturbances such as depression. So it seems there are several possible scenarios. A "normal" person could become narcissistic due to alcoholism. A "born N" could become worse. For some, the mental problems disappear when the alcohol use is stopped.
Thorburn's books are well worth reading BTW. His website is www.justsaynotoaddicts.com
That explains everything I saw. I've observed the scenarios you describe. 1. Narcissism without alcoholism: My Nmom is very narcissistic, but by no means alcoholic. 2. Alcoholism without pre-existing narcissism: My friend was not narcissistic. When she was sober she was delightful. When she drank she was narcissistic, although she had many other characteristics of alcoholism than the narcissistic ones I've mentioned. 3. Narcissism with alcoholism: I know that alcoholism is a common co-morbid disease with narcissism, so perhaps "dry drunks" are those who WERE alcoholics and are STILL narcissists.
I should also add to my list that both narcissists and alcoholics are very secretive.
Chris2
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both narcissists and alcoholics are very secretive.
Wow - secretive boy that's my father to a tee. That really hurts to read - not sure why.
What about "double binds". One of the hallmarks and most poisonous aspect of my childhood were the doublebinds my father put us in. - GS
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Welcome TJR100: Isn't Aspergers a type of autism? It would be a weird life to be raised by an Aspergers/Narcissist Drunk!!
Hi Kelly. Aspergers as I understand it is sort of a borderline autism. My father acts like his is one "flick of the switch" away from sitting in a chair rocking and talking to himself. He relates to other people, but not very well and usually on his own terms. Most of my interactions with him seem to consist of me listening to him monologue about his own interests, mostly science related. It's a deceptive disorder, because my father did, with difficulty, manage to get married and hold down a pretty good job. It has however, created havoc with me and all other members of my FOO.
And yes it was (and still is) definitely weird. I am only now starting to get some handle on it in my 40's.
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both narcissists and alcoholics are very secretive.
Wow - secretive boy that's my father to a tee. That really hurts to read - not sure why.
What about "double binds". One of the hallmarks and most poisonous aspect of my childhood were the doublebinds my father put us in. - GS
Hm. Could you describe two or so double binds to me, so I can pick out the commonalities? I'm not sure what this is. I am thinking it's a way of saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" But what makes these events different from the random punishing narcissists dish out because they just need to vent?
Thanks...
Chris2
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WOW!! Secretive?? My Nmom is soooo secretive. She doesn't want anyone to know our business. She would NEVER admit to making a mistake nor would she apologize without being pushed into a corner and then the apology would go something like this, "Oh, I wasn't clear on that so I could understand why you would be angry........I'm sorry, if I had known the real reason I wouldn't have acted that way..............."
Meanwhile my husband sits in the smelly garage our in the shed to drink and smoke rather than sit on the deck and enjoy the beautiful view we have in our backyard (creek, trees, etc.....)
And I wonder if my husband has a little Aspergers......................my daughter is autistic and I have known some full blown Aspergers people - but my husband? He gets stuck..................maybe he escapes through drinking......................
And my friend who is a raging drug addict and alcoholic - boy, yes, when she is drunk and her boyfriend doesn't jump when she snaps, you should see the hate in her eyes, the "no one treats me that way.................!!!"
I would HATE it if my nmom was an alcoholic - THAT would be SO bad. Thankfully she is a tee totaller (to a fault)
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Hm. Could you describe two or so double binds to me, so I can pick out the commonalities? I'm not sure what this is. I am thinking it's a way of saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" But what makes these events different from the random punishing narcissists dish out because they just need to vent?
Chris2
Here is some information on double binds. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" sums it up pretty well. I think some of them get fairly subtle. A big double bind for me has been the choice between being "punished" by spending time around my N-ish father and the feeling of guilt (I was conditioned into) if I didn't go along.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
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Double Bind. I have often called it "talking out of both sides of your mouth." My nmom is a master at this. When she asked me to tell my aunt that we wanted her to work weekends, I presumed that in a couple of months, she would come back and ask me why I was so mean to my aunt to make her work weekends. She had me write a memo to the employees telling them that the bookkeeper would be the "go to" person and was now considered assistant manager. A year and a half later she told me she resented me for trying to elevate the bookkeeper above being a bookkeeper - then when I found the memo on the computer and printed a copy out for her, she told me she never remembered that memo.................
Everything that comes out of her mouth should be written down and signed - that way when she "forgets" later on, you can refresh her memory by producing the signed copy..................
Double bind?? That's crazy!
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Al-anon in a few minutes. Guess what? Alcoholic husband went two weeks without drinking. We were talking about "dry drunks" earlier in the thread. I think my h was being a dry drunk yesterday. He was testy. Angry. Complaining. Then he started drinking and got drunk. He had promised me that he would always eat before he drank.......................well, it didn't happen. Then the funniest thing happened. His younger sister called from Arizona this morning at about 11:00 am.........she was clearly drunk off her butt. So he got all upset and wasn't going to call her but then he did. He was going on and on and on about it. And I said, "You see, that is exactly how I feel when you drink......................." Why do you suppose that both he AND his younger sister are drunks????? And he points the finger at her because she can't keep a job and he does.................it's all alcohol abuse whether you can keep a job or not, right??
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And he points the finger at her because she can't keep a job and he does.................it's all alcohol abuse whether you can keep a job or not, right??
I remember this issue coming up in the Thorburn books. Most alcoholics are able to hold down jobs. So it isn't a valid test of whether they are alcoholic or not. They will, however, use it as an excuse: "I'm still working so I must be in control of my drinking". It can take years for employers to finally get fed up enough to boot the problem employee out the door.
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Actually, in one of my earliest workplaces, it became very clear to me that alcoholics did very well within the company. The tendency to lie, spin, shift blame, evade responsibility, change the story every five seconds, etc. that is characteristic of alcohol abusers whose disease is active - is also the exact set of traits that is preferred by really unscrupulous companies, whether they are playing their employees off against one another, or are cheating the customers or lying to the regulatory authorities [if they're a regulated industry].
I was amazed. Flabbergasted. Completely blown out of the water. When I realized that virtually the entire set of middle and upper management in this place were either problem drinkers, or dry drunks - and the ones who weren't abusing alcohol had other problems, such as serial adultery, which I guess = sex addiction.
Really dishonest corporations love un-recovering addicts, and they love un-recovering enablers too. But they promote the addicts. They use the enablers to do the work the addicts aren't doing... chew 'em up, and spit 'em out, just the way the addicts themselves will do.
Edit in: in the interest of balance - the folks who did worst in this place and some others like it tended to be [1] genuinely recovering alcoholics who were well aware of the BS, smoke and mirrors of the disease, and committed to rejecting it; [2] similarly recovering enablers; [3] people who were lucky enough to be healthy from the get-go. Folks in category [3] usually didn't stay long; at the first whiff of crazymaking, they'd find another place to work. The ones in categories [1] and [2] usually ended up scapegoated one way or another.
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Chris2-
I sort of missed this thread for a few days somehow. Sorry for the slow reply.
Hm. Could you describe two or so double binds to me, so I can pick out the commonalities? I'm not sure what this is. I am thinking it's a way of saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" But what makes these events different from the random punishing narcissists dish out because they just need to vent?
I've given this example before but my brother actually told this again Monday after my aunts funeral.
One summer night, when we were children my father took my brothers and a guest and me to buy some icecream. My brother's guest (son of a friend of my father)wanted peach so my brother backed him up. My NPD father had black and white rules about everything including food and peach icecream was only permitted if it was homemade. So my father bought peach icecream for them and something else for himself. When it was served up, my brother's guest didn't like it. As a consequence, my brother had to eat peach icecream for every meal until it was finished.
The double bind is being caught between conflicting policies. "Honor guests preferences." and "Follow all of your father's preferences." or as you succenctly phrased it, "Damned if you do and damned if you don't." Or, in our household - you will be punished and humiliated no matter what you do. No wonder I am working through paralysis and anxiety!
The difference between this and just needing to vent is the effect on the victim. When an N just vents - it is a little easier to recognize that the venting belongs to the N but a double bind has the cruel feature of blaming and shaming the victim and for me the real disadvantage was that I took that blame and shame on - my brother took on very little but he has unfortunately developed very strong N traits. That's something of the difference between a sensitive soul and a matter of fact - water of the back guy. I saw my Ntraitish mother as just venting and just counted my days until I went to college but I wasn't so clear about my double binding father. - GS
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I had only recently really researched alcoholism and its stages, as my therapist gave me a book about it - I discovered I did not really know what it was before reading this book. Most of the people I knew who were drinkers (even if they drank Every weekend), could probably only be classified as Abusers of Alcohol, as someone pointed out here.
The interesting thing was, recognizing my ex b/f in the description of a person in the advanced stages of the disease. I don't remember all the details, but here's what a Full Blown alcoholic will do (and my b/f who is a family practice doctor, and a good one at that, was managing to hide this from his office): Hide alcohol. Stock up (I'd find cases of wine in the garage, cause "it was on sale"). Sneak drinks. Drink in the mornings (one or two beers on the way to work, to take the edge off). People who've been abusing alcohol for a very long time will often develop an intolerance to it, so I'd find he'd be drunk after only drinking 2 or 3 glasses of wine, sometimes (either that, or he was mixing it with pills). He drank while on call and passed out, despite his pager going off all night. Lied about why he didn't answer his pager, I imagine (I didn't get any pages said angrily, I'm sure - then he'd walk off - like, this conversation is over). Stopped on the way home from work everyday to get two bottles of wine. Budgeted for alcohol. Spent money like crazy while drunk, and was in Huge debt. Lived beyond his means. Would act mad or get mad at me about something proactively, before going to the store for alcohol - so that I wouldn't complain. Anytime I complained, point the finger at me, saying I was the drunk (cause I was mean when I got drunk, whereas he was as nice as a kitten - it was true, too).
Alcoholism is very very scary to someone who truly wants intimacy (me), cause you realize you've bought into a lie and intimacy or the chance of it keeps slipping and slipping...any addiction, really, is scary I'm sure for this same reason. For me, I liked my ex so much better when he was drinking, cause when he wasn't he was MEAN. But when he got a few drinks and/or painkillers and/or sleeping pills and/or pot in him, he was sometimes fun and usually nice. But when he passed out, i felt so very alone in the relationship. Trying to talk to someone who's making about as much sense as a babbling 2 year old, day in and day out, gets old. I got mad at him, but I also felt sorry. But mostly I felt sorry for me.
I can see why a N would be attracted to an alcoholic, yes. Good point. Cause they'd both be so wrapped up in themselves and their addiction, they'd maybe feed off one another and/or leave each other alone to get their high.
bean
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Kelly,
They are probably both drunks because they both have the same physical reaction to alcohol, and they both never learned how to deal with life.
Yes, your husband had the RIDs... Restless Irritable and Discontent we call it. An empty spirit (as in things spiritual... no pun intended) gets it quickly. It sounds like he does want to change though and that could be great. Not necessarily for you, but for him. I am not saying it wouldn't be good for you, but as you know from Al Anon, he has to want it for himself. And a lot of his journey will have nothing to do with you, if he decides to head out on it. The great thing is that he has definitely learned that he can't control himself at this point. That's the hardest lesson!!!! Kelly, food or no food, any kind of rule you can think of... he will still get drunk. And he probably wants to get drunk fast.
You are doing all the right stuff with your life, Kelly!!!!! You are an inspiration to me.
Love, Beth
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Beth, NO, you are an inspiration to me!! Everytime you give me those words of affirmation I just feel more and more empowered - thank you!!!
Boy, the last few posts got me to thinking. One - what in the world was my husband's life like??? He is such an angry man. And his sister?? Almost 40 - can't keep a job............drugs, alcohol....the world owes her..........my husband? RID - I like that. Restless, Irritable and Discontent...............he was. And that comment about being proactive? Getting mad at first so he has a reason to storm out and then another reason to buy some beer?? Geez! Spooky the similarities in all this................are we all living the same life???
I can't decide if he hides it so he can drink it later. I think he goes and buys it when he wants it and then hides all the empties. I opened up the cooler and it was chalk full of empties...................
Well, I'll just have to see. I think he might be more of an alcohol ABUSER rather than a full fledged alcoholic. But I told him he is going down the road that my best friend went down. 10 years ago she was just like he is, now she is a raging alcoholic...
Oh, and by the way - another subject - but I went to careerbuilder.com and applied for a job yesterday!!!
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Yea!!!!!!!! What kind of job???????
Love, Beth
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kelly,
Excellent!!! That is the first step, get those legs moving and do something about the situation. You don't have to stay stuck with your N Mom, if a better opportunity comes along, jump on it!
good job
bean
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OK, I just went into Careerbuilder and saw a job as a Center Director for Sylvan Learning Centers................you know, when people come in to inquire about services, tell them what they have to offer and sign them up!! Well, I have been in sales and management and if the money sounds right and the hours sound ok and they offer me the job - good bye mama.........now I thought I might tell nmom that I am looking since we have established we are at an impass at work and that I cannot work with her. When something like this has come up before, she freaked and did something..............well, one time (after my divorce) I told her I needed another job because I didn't make enough money (she would supplement me each month but wanted to know exactly what I spent the money on - I said, no......) I went to real estate school - well, she doubled my salary!! She figured if they were paying me and my ex a certain amount of money to support my family and he really didn't do anything, then why couldn't they still support my family? So she freaked and doubled my salary. Maybe she will freak and back off - OR - she will give me some money......................but rationally I can tell her that we are talking about selling so why wouldn't I look for a job?? AND the business could use my salary..............
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Kelly - decide what you need to do for yourself. don't pu yourself at your mother's mercy. don't make your decision based on her response to your options. that is your power. If you want to stay if she gives you more then let that be your goal but if your goal is to get out from under her don't let her have power over you if she offers you more. Decide on your goal before you make a move.
your friend - Gaining Strength
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Well, I am not getting my hopes up because even if they offered me the job..................would I have to work long hours? Would I have to work weekends? It's all about making it w/o nmom AND having time with my family. So my side business is still chugging along and if I could only find some people who had the want to to do something with it, it would be ok. My 19 year old daughter made District Manager in one month so she's an ace. Just need a couple more......................anyway..................I just keep giving it UP!! I ask God every day to make me content where I am and to bless my nmom and to direct my paths.................that's all I can do!
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Mom is a classic N, dad was a [pathetic, S.O.B.]alcoholic. Both loved verbal assaults, both liked to create scenes & throw tantrums in public, both liked to humiliate/degrade me in public, both were sadistic and each admitted on at least one occasion that they liked to see me cry...explinations were: "i deserved it" ;"it's funny"; "that's what you get" ;"good"; "i'll GIVE you a reason to cry"
that last one literally makes me cringe b/c you hear it so often. It's like obviously you already GAVE me a reason to cry f**ker, what are you gonna do start cutting off body parts!!!
It's impossible not to go into a rant on these boards....thanx 4 listening 8)
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rants welcome, Nicky :P, as are you.
I hope you can distance AWAY from that poison ASAP.
What is equally important and especially, dangerously easy for young people...is not to realize that when you pull away from the painful enmeshment with Ns, you have GOT to fill that space with positive people and positive actions that are seriously aimed at healing you.
That upbringing (downbringing is more like it) has damaged you. (You have company.) But it doesn't stop there. A long life thinking oh, I'm damaged goods so I might as well waste my life like they did...is a fatal and unnecessary error.
INSTEAD, right here you can find the faith that the damage you experienced is fertile ground for some extraordinary growth.
Normal? That's a word. Coming into yourself, dedicating yourself with courage and sincerity to finding and nourishing (in practical ways, with practical plans) your own gifts and possibilities can take you as far into goodness, happiness and a rich, full life as you choose to do.
Dream big. Get help. Turn off the TV and read. Don't be a drunk or a druggie. Learn to enjoy peace among peaceful people. (Ever tried a Quaker meeting? They're wonderful.)
Rambling, sorry....
Hopalong
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Hey Nicky!! I, too rant and rave!! Sometimes it is the only way we can heal is to get all that poison out..........so come on!!!
And back to the Al-anon topic..................I am an advocate!! I will go even if I don't have an alcoholic in my life because they address everything I need to know - they should subtitle it - "n-anon.........................narcissistic victims anonymous!!" Same principles//
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Kelly :D
I am so happy to hear how AlAnon is helping you.
YAY.
Hops
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That's a correct statement. I have jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire, one too many times. Cannot tell you how stupid I was when I broke up with former alcoholic boyfriend, started dating another guy (whose ex-wife immediately wanted him back when I came into the picture - good thing, too, cuz that would have been REAL bad) and then ran straight into my now husband's arms. I mean there was a day between last time I saw the one guy and met my husband and got married six months later. Now what am I doing? Complaining about his alcoholism. Funny thing is when I met him (online) he said he didn't drink - what am I a drunk magnet? It was on our honeymoon that Mr. Hyde came out for the first time!