Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: nickyinstant on October 01, 2006, 02:04:31 AM
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I physically left my husband of 16 years, one year ago, exhausted and weak.
Throughout our marriage I supported him and gave him almost everything that he wanted and needed (just never, ever enough) and I managed my situation the best I could, being trapped by our business (which I run), our geography (away from family and pre-marriage friends) and my desire to do the right thing by my children (girl 15, boy 13)
i discovered one week ago the reason for all the problems i/we have had, through research online. I cannot believe that i never researched our problems before, as i have asked the questions of him so often -"who did this to you?" "how can you do this to me?" "why cant you understand?" "what is WRONG with you?" I used the jeckyl and hyde analagy often, him being the most adored person in our town for his wonderful warm, friendly jovial personality, but to those who know him, deeply unhappy and never satisfied, with me doing all the work and taking all the responsibilities
What I have learned is helping me to come terms with my marital situation, and the reasons why our financial and emotional separation has not been moving forward,
Where my real difficulty lies, and the main reason i started to research, is that my daughter has similar problems. She has just turned 15 years old, and she, along with many others looks to blame her age and stage. But I have known her all her life, and her age and stage just makes it scarier. I have just returned from a trip with her, using both journeys as an opportunity to explore the possibility of her taking on board my issues. She has been staying with her father for the past 2 weeks, and wishes to move back in with me. it is safer and healthier for her with me ( he uses her as to vent his rage, cos while she is like him, she rejects his behaviour and challenges him and their relationship is explosive) The abuse I received on both journeys was horrible, and she dug a deeper and deeper hole, one which she can continuously emerge from smiling and happy and chirping about her hairstyle or outfit, but one which I find difficult to come to terms with.
I just feel that reality is hitting me, and I am contemplating a future with pity and gulit for her friends/partners/spouse/children. I just dont know if I should just do what I have always done, and give in to her a little longer, or stand up to her now, knowing that the mask (the faked nice bits) will be denied me, and she is still, only a child.
So much of me screams to turn back the clock, go back and do what i always did, as the worst is still to come (my husband is still supported by the business, still enjoys the status that is provides him, and the job title, which he cannot justify) he still has much to accept -his third lawyer has just dumped him. We live in a village and our friends are mutual/couples. My children are used in the battle.
I feel much stronger than I have in the past, but still wish I could fix things - its what I do, but everything I read says it wont happen, and I believe that. But how true is that for my 15 year old daughter? And how do I cope if it is true? Therqpy of any sort, is thin on the ground where we live.
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Welcome, Nicky,
Are you saying you fear for your daughter becoming a person like your husband?
If she's 15, there's time, but only just, for intervention.
Do you have supportive family you could go to in an area where there IS therapy?
I am very sorry you're facing this, but in another way, glad.
In every respect, learning all you can about personality will help you, and her.
I have never searched for a book aimed at a child who seems narcissistic...does anyone know?
Hops
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I fear for her because she IS like him, or at least she BEHAVES like him, and its not just puberty and teen stuff.
Does anyone know therapists in the UK - Scotland even - who could help?
thank you for anything, x
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If you haven't already found this site, try it. It is for the UK and the best I have found.
http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/
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Nicky,
I want to let you know that you are not alone.
My daughter is N'istic due to being born like that and due to my neglecting her for 3 1/2 years while I was caught up in codependent, online relationships, getting abused by an N myself.
Anna is 17 now and has shown N signs from very very early...for instance:
projection. When I would scold Anna for doing something as a little child, she would then turn toward her sister and begin punching her.
entitlement. Anna cannot understand why anyone would refuse to allow her to do whatever she wants when she wants to do it. It's a sort of "how DARE you deny me," attitude.
double-bind. I wanted to us Anna's video recorder one day to put a recording I did onto a videotape, so I asked her. She informed me, "Not now. I have other things on my mind, the least of which is you using my video player. Besides, it's something only I can take care of cause I have to set up the tv, etc"
Months later, when I asked her if she would put my recording on tape, her reply: "You had your chance! You had plenty of time to make that recording into a tape. Is it MY fault that you didn't do it. My friend has my videorecorder now, and I have no way to get it."
bait n switch. One day, Anna stayed home sick from school, so hubby said she had to do dishes later on. When it came time to do the dishes, I reminded Anna that she needed to do them. Her reply, "I don't feel like it. I'm going to bed. I'm NOT doing them! I'm going to BED!" I suggested that she at least help me...she said "NO! I'm going to BED!"
When hubby got home, he asked me where Anna was. I told him in bed. He said "why aren't these dishes done?" I said, "she refused to do them!" He said, "I'll go deal with her!" Suddenly, she appears in the kitchen, sweetest look on her face that could melt butter, says to me "Mom, why didn't you tell me to do the dishes. I would have have helped you with them."
You can see a VISIBLE SWITCH in my daughter even now. As long as you don't get in her way and you let her hang out with her friends and boyfriend, go to school and do "her thing" she is fine. If you dare to ask questions and she notices you are starting to CARE or SUSPECT anything, she will EXPLODE, begin snapping at you and demand that it's "none of your business!"
Interestingly enough, my 3 younger children do not cuss. I have never heard them say a cuss word, ever...and Anna PRIDES herself on that and other things. She is all about her image and looks, and constantly makes comments about how gorgeous she is and how I "just WISH you looked as good as THIS package!"
One day I said to her, "you really think you're all that, don't you!" She said, "Think? How can you DOUBT it? I mean LOOK AT THIS!" moving her hands seductively down her body from shoulders to hips.
So, as I said, Nicky, no you are not alone in this, and NO it is not just a TEENAGE STAGE...I've been told that too, and I do not believe it. THEY don't see who she REALLY is.
Even a cop once told her, "Look, cut your mother some slack or else you can come down to the station and sign over as an emancipated minor. If you choose to live with this woman, you need to ABIDE BY HER RULES!" (that was a cop I called cause Anna took away my telephone and refused to give it back, and I HAD HAD IT with her antics behind-the-scenes, and nobody believing me)
I have a feeling that "lil miss THANG" is going to "get hers" one day, when she goes to flash her feathers to the wrong type of person. I don't wish ill on her, but God has a way of dealing with the "high and mighty" of this planet, who claim to be His Children.
~Laura
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Dear Nicky,
My oldest daughter also shows alot of N traits. She's 24 now, with a child of her own, and recently divorced after a very turbulent 2 year marriage. My other 3 children are 19, 15, and 10... each with varying degrees of self-absorption, as typical for any kids, but all very much capable of empathy and honest relationship. But my eldest... expects, demands, and will do anything to get... her way.
Always has been so. With her, it's never been enough... always " give me more, more" ... and always, always, when things go wrong, it's someone else's fault. Zero personal responsibility there.
Re: your 15 year-old, how does she manage to get away with this?
The abuse I received on both journeys was horrible, and she dug a deeper and deeper hole, one which she can continuously emerge from smiling and happy and chirping about her hairstyle or outfit, but one which I find difficult to come to terms with.
I am very familiar with the happy chirping which follows an in-your-face rebellion of the worst sort.... but does she face consequences for her choice to behave so poorly toward you, her mother? I know how difficult it is, but regardless of her reaction, you can enforce strong boundaries to show her that when she chooses to behave in such a disrespectful manner, she is also choosing to lose privileges, etc. Please understand, it's hard on the message board to convey tone... I'm not blaming you for her behavior or saying that you are causing it at all! Just trying to encourage you that you do not have to be the victim of your child's abusive behavior.
You have the power in this relationship and she needs to know that, I think! She will continue to act out as long as it works for her... in other words, as long as she does not suffer any consequences for misbehaving. Solid, firm boundaries established in love can go a long way toward re-shaping that behavior. On the other hand, my oldest has always run from any attempt to set boundaries, so your daughter may decide that it's easier to live with her dad... but I hope not.
Hugs, Nicky. Please don't give in to the idea that it's too late. You have been through alot and I know sometimes it seems like a never-ending battle, but you can do what you can do to teach your daughter how you (and any civilized adult) expect to be treated. Having N for a father is not a curse upon her nor is it a free ticket/excuse to become as abusive as she pleases without any bounds. Stand fast! I hope you'll share some more here when you can and get the support and encouragement you need.
With love,
Hope
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I feel much stronger than I have in the past, but still wish I could fix things - its what I do, but everything I read says it wont happen, and I believe that. But how true is that for my 15 year old daughter? And how do I cope if it is true? Therqpy of any sort, is thin on the ground where we live.
I am not sure how much this will help, but here goes. My daughter is 13, nearly 14. Her dad left 9 years ago, but we have continued to suffer from his impact over the years, one way and another - too long a story for here.
Anyway, to the mother:daughter thing. D is prone to Nish behaviours, but I do not think they are actually N. They are because I am used to providing and serving, and she is used to being a child. However, she is growing up now, and as part of that growing up I am starting to expect her to help me, and to recognise me as a human being, just the same as her, only older. It takes a lot of communicating this message, but it can be done. She is now, maybe a year or more after me starting this, just beginning to show glimpses of adult appreciation for me, and what I do. I sometimes get offers of cups of tea, and I once even found that she had done some hoovering while I was out. Not much, admittedly, but some.
I think that our Ns have had mothers who have allowed the N behaviour to go unchecked, and to some extent it is up to us to communicate to our children that we are not here just to meet their every need, but that there is a time and a place where it is appropriate for us too to receive love and nurturing.
As I said, it takes time, and it is not easy, but I would not yet give up hope for your 15 year old. She has gone through a huge amount, and that is bound to take her time to work through.
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hi nicky,
welcome.
I have to disagree with hops. I don't think intervention is necessary, nor is it your job as her parent. The only thing I believe you can do is teach her by example: be a loving parent, and a mature adult, and she may one day turn into the same. If not, you will certainly grieve the loss of your daughter, especially if your husband is very narcissistic and you're worried she will turn out the same.
I'm not sure being N is any better or worse than what you've described your role was: being the codependent in the relationship. You can rise above this, and deserve to, and I encourage you, although I think it will be hard without the support of a T. That's not saying it's impossible though. This board is a soft place to fall at times, and I've used it as such for a very long time, it seems, now. But I honestly do not think I'd come as far as I believe I have (I have two N parents, and I'm trying to recover from the abuse finally at age 34) without my current therapist.
But back to your daughter. you're afraid she's turning into her father? I can relate to this, as I most certainly Did turn into my N father and was heading down the path of being just like him for many years, after I left home. What made me snap out of it? A lot of feedback from coworkers, bosses, friends..me not liking myself. I realized my egotism was not my real self, and it was not who I wanted to be. I remembered a different me - the child me. And I choose to shed the introjections of my N parents. Your daughter may get there, but it's not for you to decide. Even though she's not 18, you don't own her. It is only your job, like I said, to be the best person you can be. That's all.
IMHO,
bean
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I see your point, Bean...thank you.
Hmmmmm. That's really something to think about.
I think I was projecting my anger and pain about my D onto Nicky's situation...wanting Nicky to intervene and prevent her D from getting to where my D is right now.
Hops
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I will be one of the first to vouch for Penelope! She has grown even since I've been on this board :) I'm PROUD of you my friend, Penelope Bean! it is a blessing to know and grow with you.!
~Laura
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:oops:
thank you Laura. you are a true friend
many many hugs
((((((((((((((((laura)))))))))))))))))
pb
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nickyinstant-
You have received some good advice here. I am proud of you for searcing for solutions and taking a very big step. What you are doing is very difficult and it will be taxing on your energy and your spirit but it will be worth it in the end. Meanwhile you must take care of yourself. As a mother, you cannot help but worry about your child but I encourage you to follow your principles of parenting. To love her - in action and in thought (not her unacceptable behavior but her). To continue raising her as you believe is right. You will have to balance this with taking care of yourself because the path you have chosen is exhausting though necessary. You must fortify yourself as though for battle.
Remember that you do not have to take abuse from anyone - not your husband and not your daughter. One of the things that you will be learning is about boundaries - how they have been violated and how to build healthy ones. You will know you have made progress when you don't feel slugged in the stomach by a family members unacceptable behavior. Be patient - it takes time.
I was raised by an N father and saddly developed some N behaviors. My mother was not able to help me recognize them or overcome them. But I agree with what was posted above - as you learn boundary setting you can help set limits for your daughter, with love. This alone will protect you and will help her. You don't have to teach her boundaries - you set them. She will learn by experience. There will come a time when she will see that her behavior is counterproductive. If you have loved her (not her actions) and learned to draw boundaries she will very likely come to you for help - but not before waging a war. She will likely be angry that she has these traits and likely will try to take that anger out on you. That is where your own boundary setting will be essential for survival of you both.
Try out this web site. These guys wrote a book titled Boundaries that is quite good. It launched a huge business for them and they have a huge number of books that I didn't know about. There might be something helpful for you here: http://www.cloudtownsend.com/
You'll find great support here at Voicelessness. Come often - Gaining Strength
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Hi again, Nicky,
I hope you're well... and wish you weren't so far, across the pond and all. That website Jona provided is very good, I think... took a look at it and found some wonderful articles. Also the Cloud and Townsend link from Gaining Strength is a great resource.
Just thinking of you and hoping you'll post again.
Hope
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Wow!
I have a lot to learn, and a lot, come time, to say to each of you!
Good advice is an understatement, what a journey! :( :) :D :lol:
Fair to say, I am overwhelmed right now but really getting somewhere.
I am grateful. xxxxx
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There is also a pretty good article here written by Dr. G about the importance of giving your child "voice" along with attention and love :wink:
http://www.voicelessness.com/parenting.html
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Am taking all advice on board and reading everything i can. Taking care of myself is difficult, but paramount!
A site I have pointed my daughter to and am finding interesting is:
http://www.angriesout.com/teach9.htm
I think its really going to help me. the article - "you owe me - children of entitelment" is good and i have so many more to read.
I have made contact with a psychoanalyst and look forward to progressing that.
Thank you all so much. xx
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Dear Nicky,
It's wonderful to hear you sounding so upbeat and expectant! Please do continue to post when you get a chance... re: your progress and any helpful info you find along the way. That Angries Out website is excellent!
Blessings,
Hope
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The angries out website woke me up - literally. I saw my mother in the description of the parent who scapegoats (and first read that a parent who does this is severely disturbed!)
I found the advice below especially helpful http://www.angriesout.com/grown19.htm
"Stop trying to win the favor of a parent who did not like you when you were growing up. A parent who rejects their child has some severe personality disturbance and is not likely to change."
I also, very sadly and horrifyingly saw myself in many of those descriptions of an angry, raging, hurt person.
I read the articles there whenever I feel out of control, or extremely depressed, or sometimes if I feel good and just want to gauge how far I've come. I find I like to read them over and over. They resonate with me. It is that kind of site for me.
hugs nicky,
pb
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Hi Nicky,
I am coming late tothis thread, but I do want to say that I disagree that you have to let her grow up to be whatever she will be. Who is going to raise her, if not her parents? Ns are not happy people, and if there is a chance to steer her away fro that, I would take it. Also, how about your own boundaries? How about setting some so that she knows she cannot abuse you, especially since she wants to live with you? It's actually good that she clashes with her father,becasue there is some incentive to behave in order to stay with you.
Not from a place of anger. From a strong place of self-respect.
Plucky
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I completely agree with you. I have to do everything I can to save her. But not just her, what about those who try to be close to her. I could not stand to see some poor guy get sucked in and abused. And children!! My future grandchildren - yikes! After she is 16, I cant force her to do anything. She is an adult in the UK at 16. Time is short, and I know it.
Can i ask if there are any threads or articles about people who have undergone treatment? Its so true that N's are not happy people. Mu husband is miserable, and lives with aches and pains due to his stress and emotional state. He will get worse as the financial realities of my leaving are not being fully felt as yet due to him still feeding off the business. I just cant seem to accept that there is not a way to go back and try to undo the damage! What about hypnotherapy? Gawd, its hard. All I ever wanted was for him (and obviously her) to be happy.
I have to file for divorce, and my lawyer wants ALL the dirt, as he feels H will contest (surely not - but thats me being niave as always) so thats prob why I am having a wobble in my resolve.
Anyway, so glad I found such a great board, am sure you all know how great it is to dicover you are not alone, and that someone understands!!
love nicky
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Hi Nicky,
Maybe it would help to select some good basic articles on NPD and give them to your lawyer...
Should be some good resources on the What Helps thread...
I am very sorry you are seeing your child's Nishness. I have had this fear too...it's hard.
(((((Nicky))))
Hops
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Hi Nicky,
dig up all the dirt you can. Why? Because you are probably in denial about the extent of the dirt. Once you see how much dirt there is, your resolve issue may be solved.
I do not have any resources for N children. Maybe someone else can help you, or look at the book list on the other board on this site. I wish you luck. Keep us posted.
Plucky
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have discovered kids dont get diagnosed Till over 18. Am sure she does not have "it" just terribly thoughtless, selfish, and a victim of genes and upbringing. Being apart from her father best thing I could ever have done for her. What could she learn by me staying? A LOT of bad stuff. Like being a phoney fake, thoughtless, selfish, take all you can person WORKS, becuase for her father, it DID!!!
Have got us a phsychoanalist who knows a bit about it - though I suspect not much more than I already know myself. Am seeing him myself for some support, but only been once. He recons am so needy myself, after years and years of coping with everything, that am not coping well with her, and I agree. Am the adult, but lost my strenght, my confidence my clarityy and myself a bit, I guess. I managed my life quite well, but now, its got a lot harder, for the time being at least, so am I better now, or was I better then - for her??? Well, prob neither.....But life's along game!
When they say that physically leaving them is the easy bit......its just sooooo true, and very much in my case.
Am at stage of desperately trying to cease all but neceasary contact. But the wind-ups never stop- the attempts to hook me in. I have good days and bad days. Today started good, and WAS a good day in general, but by 2pm my guts start that terrible churning. Its hurt and its fear of what lies ahead, and how much worse is it going to get? In over a year, have only managed to leave physically, which, for him is the least of it. Regular contact, status, money - a company director who doesnt work - he still has to loose those things, and those are what will bother him, and it terrifies me. Divorcing an N?? Take it day at a time! Focus on the light - I tell myself each and every day.
I was stronger when I was there with him, I could never have predicted this journey I am travelling. But know what? Never an option. A true N MAKES you leave one day... Its essential to the phsyche. Give em everything and they HAVE to push and push. This is the BIGGEST learning curve of my whole life. The biggest challenge I have ever faced. But one that I MUST face. And those who cant make up their minds - stay or go - I sympathise - I lived it - for years and years. But your time WILL come, and if not... he/she will leave you, cos you wont be who you were, You too will be an empty shell, and of little use to a true N.
I will guide my children through their lives, as best I can. I could never have done that from the place I was in. We have a future not blighted by destruction and chaos and damage and hurt for the very first time. x
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Keep going, nicky, keep going. It doesn't feel better at first. These are actually growing pains. They are necessary. This is the way to become your real self. And that's the kind of mom kids need, real ones.
Pennyplant
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Hi Nicky,
You have my great respect for what you have done and are doing.
And also for putting something so powerful so succintly:
A true N MAKES you leave one day... Its essential to the psyche.
I will guide my children through their lives, as best I can. I could never have done that from the place I was in. We have a future not blighted by destruction and chaos and damage and hurt for the very first time.
What a statement of survivor spirit. I hope you are profoundly proud of your accomplishment.
Invisible to many who don't know what people go through while they are stuck in the thrall of Ns, but believe me, there is another invisible chorus...
CHEERING YOU!
I am so impressed. And I hope you are too.
Hopalong
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Thank you both.
I'm a fixer, my mr phsycho-whats-it-guy (I'm Scottish for gawds sake. - we dont do these things)that I am seeing wants to help my work out why. Tres cool - cos am not planning on a repeat N performance in my future life.
Right now, the singlle life FOR EVER (which it is not my intention to have btw) looks far more appealing to me than THAT marriage I had, for ALL my currnet "mourning" and "healing" and "grieving" and "movings on" all those "stages" that get written/talked about..............which dont ACTUALLY happen in "stages" when dealing with this narcissism stuff..... Each, all ,and any one of them presents itself to us at any time on any day, and thats before you start to get rid of your abuser!
I envy those who cut them loose, who dont acknowledge or entertain them. And I envy those who never encounter them.
But I have. At length and now am questioning why - what happened to me. . who what when why where and HOW did I become a victim. I am not who I thought I was. And am now embarking on a journey of self discovery as a consequence.
I am strong. Right now at least. Its been a day. A rollercoaster. BUT!!!! The difference now is this.................IT IS SO WORTH IT, and I SO KNOW THAT. My tunnell is long, and pretty dark today, but at the end of it is light. Looking back, alll there I see is GREY MIST and land mines -my life with a narcissist.
- years of wasted passion, compassion and love at the expense of those who meritted it.
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Hi Nicky,
glad to see you back. You sound good. I know this is not the situation you would choose in life, but you are doing the very best with it that is possible. You will soon be among the group of people who have jettisoned their abusers and healing fast.
After reading the thread over again., I would like to suggest something I do with my children, even though they are younger. If I see a pattern of bad behaviour, I tell them that I have apparently allowed them to think that this behaviour is ok, and that was a mistake on my part. And from now on, I am not going to tolerate this behaviour, and they are going to have to learn not to do it. I tell themI should never have let it happen, it was my mistake, but it stops now, and I have to do this, because they are headed towards growing up to be people that even I would have trouble liking, and I love them more than anything in the world.
Your daughter is old enough to be really honest with, I imagine (not there yet - my children are small).
Anyway,you sound great. Keep us posted.
Plucky
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I love Scots. I had a bf from Edinburgh...back in the Jurassic era.
Nicky I think you're doing wonderful stuff, and it's true, after the N passage, you really are not who you once were. I also spent love and passion and time on someone (exNh2) at the expense of someone else.
But you are clear as a bell, actually. There's enormous strength in the way you tell your story, so I have faith in you and in your D too.
Plucky, that advice on what to say to children who haven't had a boundary they needed...is priceless. It restores dignity and purpose to the parent and relieves the child (no matter what age) of the self-dislike they've been creating out of confusion.
Nicky, I so hope you'll take Nicky's [edit: I mean Plucky's] advice with your daughter. It is never too late. I just set some new boundaries with my D (she's 26) and things are better between us, with a new layer of honesty, than they've been in a long while. Not just peace, but growth.
Nicky you're a good person and a good mother and you are doing a fantastic job. SO glad you're getting "help" with your "issues" :D and not succumbing to the stereotype of therapy as an indicator of failure or weakness when in fact it's the opposite.
Happy Sunday,
Hops