Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Craig on October 04, 2006, 12:54:21 AM
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Can someone please explain to me why Ns should not be confronted where possible as it is well known that school yard bullies are really cowards at heart? Is one course of action to get ones friends and family to rally round and run the N out of town?
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hi Craig,
I sort of confronted my Dad in therapy, if you could call it that - I actually was just being honest, telling him how his behavior made me feel -I think I said: when you try to manipulate and control me, or give me the guilt trips, I feel anxious. He got so mad his face turned purple. He basically went into a N rage, jumping up and getting in the Therapist's face when after he tried to correct my memory, my T said quietly and gently: her experience is her experience and she may remember it differently than you. disaster. I was so shook up from the experience, cause my expectation was I'd finally explain how I felt, he'd listen, see the error of his ways, and all would be OK. I found myself in such an emotional tissy the whole next day I emailed him, and my hatred for him (which I wasn't consciously aware existed - I thought I loved and admired my Dad) came pouring out. I told him he was Narcissistic and that on my birthday one year we went to his favorite restaurant, so he could flirt with his favorite waitress, and how did he think that made me feel? I said: you think you're God, but I don't even Like you! He responded, telling me that I better refrain from speaking to him "until I calmed down and came to my senses." I emailed back in a Fury, "I have come to my senses! You are a mean miserable person. I never told you this, but I Hate You." There was more, but I can't remember it all now. Ugly, and eye-opening all at once. It was actually kind of therapeutic for me, but definitely didn't have the outcome I expected. I went in there thinking we'd all be reasonable and agree, if I was just honest. Cause I thought they would be too (my parents and siblings who were invited to this Therapy session). It ended with my siblings ganging up on me, and I became the scapegoat again. Up until the T session, it'd been my sister in the wrong for a few years - actually, interestingly I was the only one in the family my parents weren't mad at at this time- at least that's what they'd told me - that was before the confrontation...
N's don't like to be called on anything.
So what's up? Do you want to talk about it?
p bean
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Craig ,
Welcome
My experience is when confronting a n's they either say all the right things and do not mean a word of it or they will denial events even happened.
I have a suggestion if one were dealing with a full tilt N never be alone with this person, having witnesses will either curtail negative events or you will have someone to verify what happened.
Do not take N behavior personally .It has taken me 50 years to know what happened to me in my life.And I am so so much stronger.
Thanks to everyone here thank goodness for THE VESB :D
MoonLight
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Hi Craig
School yard bullies are not necessarily Ns. They may be cowards; cowards are not necessarily Ns.
Ns can be confronted, but to what objective? They won’t change.
If an N has committed a crime, let the law deal with it.
If they behave in unpleasant ways but within the law, then remove yourself from their presence or find a way to not let it affect you. Change yourself, not them.
If they have not committed any crime, why should they be run out of town?
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Welcome!
I confronted my ex a lot during our marriage and he lashed out physically and verbally.
If he had been further along the scale of N to the extreme of psycopath then maybe I'd have been murdered or beaten.
When everything was unravelled- he could not handle anger, his mother was physically abusive whilst with holding affection...and then she got sick and died. He never got to confront her or his image of her as a less than perfect mother. I remember her funeral- the church was overflowing and everyone kept saying how wonderful she was. He told me years after that sometimes at school teachers would ask how he got bruises and he would laugh and say my mother and they laughed too. Child abusers aren't well-off smily ladies with cancer who aren't coping well....
It's been interesting to watch things develop- now if I get him to boiling point he leaves, physically takes off and doesn't return until he's calm. And I try to be more reasonable ( and of course my bipolar is under control so that takes some of the explosiveness out of the equation )
Is one course of action to get ones friends and family to rally round and run the N out of town?
in my experience not many people will see the Nism. It's pretty much invisible except in a close personal relationship over time. I never try to explain it to friends and family- they just think it's psycho-babble or I'm exaggerating.
Is there a specific situation you are in which makes you want to drive someone out of your life?
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Hi and thanks for the responses.
Yes I have had some issues with a N or two and have been reading up on it as a result.
What amazes me is how they are able to "get away with murder" so to speak through a throughly polished public performance. As I learn about them I see such situations like a duck swinging upstream in a river, where above the water the duck seems serene and calm while under water the legs are working frantically.
My situation is not of a personal nature but rather in a business setting. All the advice when dealing with a N is not to do this and not to do that. My question is why should everyone adapt to cater for the N? Surely there is a way of dealing with these people like one deals with vampires? You know the sliver cross and garlic routine.
I have thought about moving on (as have others) then on reflection I have thought why should I, hence my comment about running the N out of town.
In Write's response she talks about "if I get him to boiling point he leaves". Is this not the way to do it? If every time he lies or exaggerates or back stabssomeone, someone pulls him up on it, perhaps then HE will decide to move on?
I really don't know the best way to handle this situation, so thanks for any advice or thoughts.
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I do think that some Ns are flipped over into allies in a work setting when someone stands right up to them, speaking clearly and firmly with no backing off whatever.
I've heard that sometimes bullies flip that way, because secretly, they crave someone to recognize who they really are, and in a weird way, they take someone calling them on their behavior as flattery (which is supply).
Hops
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have thought about moving on (as have others) then on reflection I have thought why should I, hence my comment about running the N out of town.
It depends what you want Craig.
If you want to ‘win’ then stay and battle it out, but will that make you happy?
If you want to stay where you work, you have some options:
- make it your mission to get this person out. You may not succeed. Aggressive strategy.
- make it your mission to live and let live, unless he affects you directly. If he affects you directly, take action to protect yourself. Defensive strategy rather than aggressive.
- move to another part of the business where you won’t interact with him. This strategy if possible means you ignore him, but I'm not sure you want to ignore him?
If every time he lies or exaggerates or back stabssomeone, someone pulls him up on it, perhaps then HE will decide to move on?
It depends on his position. Is he superior to you? if he’s in a position of power, he’ll use it to attack others.
On the other hand, if his lying, exaggerating and backstabbing are not affecting you directly, why do you care what he does?
If it is affecting you (making you look bad to the employer for example), then take remedial action. Make sure your boss knows the truth. Unless he’s your boss? (I hope not.)
I have experience of a boss like this. He tried to bully and use me. What I did meant that we both left the company: nobody ‘won’ as such and the fight wasn’t pleasant. I didn’t have a choice at the time.
PS My question is why should everyone adapt to cater for the N?
Are you sure everyone does? If he has a boss himself, does that boss cater for him? If the N is very successful and makes a lot of money for the business, the business will keep him. The commercial business doesn't care about personalities and keeping people happy, it cares about the bottom line. Maybe he contributes lots to the bottom line (or appears to)?
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In Write's response she talks about "if I get him to boiling point he leaves". Is this not the way to do it? If every time he lies or exaggerates or back stabssomeone, someone pulls him up on it, perhaps then HE will decide to move on?
What I meant was he isn't aggressive with me any more ( I don't deliberately provoke him! )
The relationship I have though is one which has to be ongoing because we have a young son we're raising together. I would not invest so much energy in a boss or colleague where I could simply disengage and walk away or just have the most superficial contact.
I felt I had to help my ex because it affects my family and he's the role model for our son.
My question is why should everyone adapt to cater for the N? Surely there is a way of dealing with these people like one deals with vampires? You know the sliver cross and garlic routine.
I feel great pity for someone who has NPD. They suffer incredibly- hence their neverending acting out.
Unless you have great feelings for the person motivating you to get closely involved it's probably healthier for you to stay away from them. Life's too short to engage in unpleasantness unnecessarily!
Most companies are taking bullying in the workplace more seriously as the litigation precedents mount, for an ongoing situation involving a bully at work US http://www.bullyinginstitute.org/ UK http://www.workplacebullying.co.uk/
I was bullied when I worked for the Probation Service in the UK, it was definitely the healthiest thing to leave once I realised it was a stressful ongoing situation and there were no policies in place at the time for employee protection; the upper management did not want to challenge the person who was extremely aggressive and effective at manipulation. Life has a delicious ironic turn though, fearing litigation from her ( after refusing to address her behaviour for so many years in post ) they had to create a job for her working alongside them. I am sure she gave them just as much grief as they tacitly ignored when it was directed to others....
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I have researched this thoroughly, and its not even against the law to bully in the workplace in the U.S.
It is only against the law if it falls under Sexual Harassment or Discrimination.
So, if you go to HR, they'll likely say - Learn to Live with it. Especially if its your supervisor. HR does not typically take the side of the worker against the boss as its a liability for them to do so.
Keep researching this on your own and ask lots of questions before you do anything. You don't want to get yourself fired. :?
I know it sucks. I'm in a similar situation and trying to get hired into a different dept.
hugs,
bean
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Hi Craig,
I used to work for an N and ended up walking out one day. Their behaviors are deep-seated survival tactics. These people are unchangeable. My N-boss was very territorial as well. She could not let go of her need to dominate and control. And I was never going to become the passive, grateful toady she required.
I wish now I could remember the website where I found a list of workplace bullying behaviors. She did every single one of the behaviors listed. And often thought it was funny. She could be very creative about getting rid of support staff once they outlived their usefulness to her. I believe I am the only one who just up and walked out on her.
My situation was in local government in a very small dept. Perhaps your situation gives more leeway. But if it is a true N you're dealing with--I'd advise just getting out before the stress weakens your self-confidence. Plus, these people have the ability to fool most others who don't spend a lot of time with them. You will be the one who looks bad if you try to take on an N. I would guess also that many of them are pretty scrupulous about doing their jobs in such a way that you won't be able to find real corruption to pin on someone in an effort to try and get rid of them. My boss documented every single penny and every single activity so nothing would get her "in trouble" with anyone. Right down to which corner of the paper she stapled her grants together on. She was also the master of setting things up so that some people would "look bad" and "get in trouble". Sometimes that was her sole motivation for doing certain things--making others look bad.
IMO, you've got your work cut out for you if you are trying to trip up a true N.
Pennyplant (who learned it the hard way)
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Hi Craig,
I used to work for an N and ended up walking out one day. Their behaviors are deep-seated survival tactics. These people are unchangeable. My N-boss was very territorial as well. She could not let go of her need to dominate and control. And I was never going to become the passive, grateful toady she required.
I wish now I could remember the website where I found a list of workplace bullying behaviors. She did every single one of the behaviors listed. And often thought it was funny. She could be very creative about getting rid of support staff once they outlived their usefulness to her. I believe I am the only one who just up and walked out on her.
My situation was in local government in a very small dept. Perhaps your situation gives more leeway. But if it is a true N you're dealing with--I'd advise just getting out before the stress weakens your self-confidence. Plus, these people have the ability to fool most others who don't spend a lot of time with them. You will be the one who looks bad if you try to take on an N. I would guess also that many of them are pretty scrupulous about doing their jobs in such a way that you won't be able to find real corruption to pin on someone in an effort to try and get rid of them. My boss documented every single penny and every single activity so nothing would get her "in trouble" with anyone. Right down to which corner of the paper she stapled her grants together on. She was also the master of setting things up so that some people would "look bad" and "get in trouble". Sometimes that was her sole motivation for doing certain things--making others look bad.
IMO, you've got your work cut out for you if you are trying to trip up a true N.
Pennyplant (who learned it the hard way)
Here's one website I found regarding bullies in the workplace:
http://www.bullybusters.org/press.html
Hope this helps.
Bones
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Hi Craig and welcome,
Ns have generally been practising their craft for decades. As a newbie to N-hood, you have little chance of beating the N at his/her own game, especially since you probably have some aversion to outright lies, complete selfishness, and unethical behaviour.
You are seeking justice, and this is not an attribute of today's workplace. Either let the N trip him/herself up and stay on the sidelines as much as possible, or get out. If you are in this person's sights, their crap will rain down on you like a class 5 hurricane.
Plucky
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Hi Craig,
I think this is the site PennyPlant may have referred to. Lots of information here.
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/index.htm
teartracks
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Hello, Craig,
Just wanted to say best wishes for a speedy resolution in your situation, even if that resolution comes only internally.
I've found that in dealing with fullblown NPD, there is no satisfaction of any sort in confrontation, and often no relief. True N's are masters and mistresses of the spin and will re-write history to suit themselves. Building a case in stealth mode may allow you to gather enough documentation to support your position, but be prepared for the ultimate in N-retaliation. Honestly, if there's any way to avoid that, I'd take a different path. Simply not worth the energy expended. My 2 cents.
Hope
P.S. Bullyonline is an excellent resource
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in my experience not many people will see the Nism. It's pretty much invisible except in a close personal relationship over time. I never try to explain it to friends and family- they just think it's psycho-babble or I'm exaggerating.
well, Craig, I sure have thought the same thing you do, regarding this topic. I have in fact confronted Jodi, the N. Let me share:
when I finally had lasted the 6 weeks at Jodi's house, being mocked, ignored, mistreated, given double-messages and effectively "punished," I decided ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, this B**** is GOIN DOWN!!!! ( I did not realize that I would be the one the family turned against, for exposing their QUEEN!)
Here is what happened: I said to Jodi, "Look, it's obvious we can't get along, are not taking a mission trip together, and you have been ignoring me for 5 weeks straight...so, Jodi, tell me, WHAT AM I DOING THAT IS UPSETTING YOU TO THE POINT OF TOTALLY PULLING AWAY FROM ME?"
her first response was, "nothin. what are you talkin about? what do you mean?"
I would not take that BS for an answer, so I again demanded to know why I was being treated like dirt.
Jodi's response finally was, "I never meant for things to turn out this way. I never meant to hurt you. "
I said, "yeah yeah, well that is all done now and I'm leaving tomorrow, so what IS it, Jodi?"
She said "Promise you won't be hurt? I never meant to hurt you and this is why I don't want to tell you..."
I said, "ok ok. I PROMISE, now TALK TO ME PLEASE. I DESERVE AT LEAST THAT MUCH!"
She said, "ok I don't like you at all. In fact I CAN'T STAND YOU!"
I sat there in shock but calmly responded with, "ok, good. now we're getting somewhere. THANK YOU. GO ON..."
She told me that she could never be close to me cause we have NOTHING In common at all, I didn't want to do anything with her, and I was just too heavy to keep up with her.
FIrst of all, we had plenty in common, but when I got to her house, she didn't want to do anything with me. She later told my friends that I was a HUMIILIATION to have near her in public.
As far as me not wantin to do anything, any time her husband would take us out, she did nothing but criticize people and whine about how she was hungry, tired, wanted a new pair of jammies, etc.
As far as me being too heavy, I was slow and a bit overweight, but I could have gone sight-seeing with her. What she didn't apparently recall, was that she told me before I went to her house "now don't expect me to be taking you places. I like to be at home, so do not expect me to go sight seeing with you around the town." (see, they SET YOU UP FOR A FALL EVERY TIME!)
anyway, confrontation got her to finally SPEAK HER EVIL FEELINGS toward me. Later, after I got home, she informed me that she was almost ready to get a lawyer to come take back all the things she gave me. She also refused to send me an entire roll of pictures I took with a camera she and her husband loaned me while I was there. (never DID get those photos either, with the explanation of "my mother feels that you are too attached to me, and it would not be healthy to send you these pictures)
She also started rumors that I was lesbian and trying to make moves on her and another lady.
N's are EVIL to the core, PERIOD! You can certainly confront them, but you must remember that they have gathered around them, their supporters in the way of family and friends, who usually have MONEY and CONNECTIONS to RUIN YOU BIG TIME...so be CAREFUL! They are cunning and vicious and will stop at NOTHING to protect their IMAGE as being BENEVOLENT and WONDERFUL......if you dare to EXPOSE or CONFRONT THEM, you'd better really KNOW what you are getting into and not be surprised when you find yourself ROYALLY SCREWED OVER!
I talk to Jodi now and again online, but I do not get close with her again. She no longer lives where she did either, so we live miles and miles apart, which is for the BEST. her new "friend" is very much like her, but continues to ask me pointed questions about my view on who Jodi really is. I think there is trouble in paradise maybe.
~RM
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I am sorry reallyme, that was a very cruel trick Jodi played on you. I'm sure you're a lovely person and people like to be around you. When people do things like this to others, it's cause they feel defective at their core. She rejected you because she does not like herself.
hugs,
bean
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Hi RM,
I have read so many horrific things Jodi did to you which are obviously still causing you pain. I wonder why you still have contact with her?
Plucky
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Plucky
While I do appreciate your concern, please realize that the things Jodi did to me no longer are causing me pain. I am a very apt writer and expressive too, but I only write for the sake of sharing so you all know you are not alone in things.
I have no problem talking to Jodi at this point...it is sporadic and we are not intimate friends as we once were. I'm just fine, so rest in that.
~Laura
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Hi all,
Thank you for all for the responses it has been very helpful in getting my head around what I should or should not do. I am beginning to form the opinion that the N on his own is not really a problem but rather how he is able to gather support to his cause by turning other people against you. Thank you all.
Craig