Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: October on October 22, 2006, 03:59:13 AM
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I find it very difficult to give up on people, and here I am, trying to get away from my abusive friend. I want to text, or phone, or email or anything to say how I feel, but it does no good, so I am trying hard to regard this as day one withdrawal, and draw a line.
This is really difficult. He can be supportive, up to a point, but always on his own terms, and because there is so little other support around, it has always been better than nothing. Anyway, I deleted the text number, to prevent me sending increasingly desperate messages as the days go on, and I have 'lost' the email address too, which I think is best. And I almost fell into the trap of writing a final 'dear John' email to say what I was doing, but didn't.
So now what do I do? :? Who am I if no longer John's friend? And, after all, what difference does it make? And how do I return his books and house key? Or is that not actually my problem?
I am not used to this kind of thing. And the trouble is, he knows me too well. But I think not as well as I now know him. He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking. I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.
:?
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Could you drop his books and house key off on the porch when you know he will not be home? If this seems to scary/tempting for you, why not mail them to him?
bean
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Hi October,
Sorry you are going through this. You deserve so much better from your friends. He has no empathy? Sounds like you are very wise to walk away. I like Bean's idea. His stuff isn't really your "problem" per se, but it would probably be a relief to make a clean break.
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He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking. I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.
you responded as a human does October- thinking he was reaching out to you instead of providing his caveat for when he acted out.
I do understand- letting go is so painful for me too, do you understand yourself and why you hang on for grim life ( and it is a grim life the way someone treats you once they realise you'll stick with them no matter what they do to you ) ?
I was emotionally abandonned by my mother as a baby, I see now I am acting some of that out when I cling to someone. It took a lot of therapy for me to 'get' it though, it was the most painful bit of the puzzle. If I make someone else love me despite the odds it soothes a tiny baby inside me.....
And I still give people a 100 chances and never totally write someone off. But no more clinging or desperate behaviour.
how do I return his books and house key? Or is that not actually my problem?
I wouldn't worry too much about them, get them out of sight, give them to a mutual friend, don't do anything.
In fact getting used to not doing anything when there's emotional agitation inside you is probably the key- so focus on other things, do somethig else.
Because you are pointing at the heart of the problem right here:
He can be supportive, up to a point, but always on his own terms, and because there is so little other support around, it has always been better than nothing.
You do have other support- us- and you can fill your life with good positive things and people.
Who am I if no longer John's friend?
you're the same person you were last week with a little more self-esteem and not prepared to let a feeling of emptiness drive you to doing and saying desperate things.
If he's going to come around he will October, if he's not then walk away. It's okay, you will not die from the pain, it will fade once you stop trying to make him care more and detach.
Who else cares? Focus on them, and look for more people to give your love to who will take it and enjoy it, and give you feedback and warmth of their own.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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you will not die from the pain, it will fade once you stop trying to make him care more and detach.
YES.
Simple and right.
October, hon, look around...go out to positive things, events, readings, music, group activities, volunteering things...
You will find new friends when you make yourself available to them.
I am SO happy to hear you've made this choice about him (I'm very impressed by your wisdom in stopping the email...that is so smart. Toxic addictive email is an awful thing when relationships end.)
hugs,
Hops
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And how do I return his books and house key? Or is that not actually my problem?
Immediately get going on returning them in the mail. Allow yourself to obsess about this guy until they are in the mail. Keep telling yourself that once they are in the mail you will no longer think about him or talk about him. Once they are in the mail, keep your vow. Every time he pops into your mind, visualize a giant broom that sweeps him out as though he were a noxious insect. Repeat as necessary. If you find anything else of his, unless it is of value, immediately give it away, throw it away or donate it, as appropriate. This is a trick I used when I cut off contact with an alcoholic friend. It took a while, but it worked, and I didn't wear out my friends, because I talked about it once, then I stopped.
I deleted the text number, to prevent me sending increasingly desperate messages as the days go on, and I have 'lost' the email address too, which I think is best. And I almost fell into the trap of writing a final 'dear John' email to say what I was doing, but didn't.
I am not used to this kind of thing. And the trouble is, he knows me too well.
It does not make sense to attempt to contact someone over and over trying to force them to respond. In our society it is accepted to contact someone once. If it's important, and you are not sure your message was received, you can try once again. Then you must stop trying to contact them, because they don't want to talk to you. That is how normal people in society behave. When you tried to contact this man and he didn't respond, he was sending you a clear message that he does not value you in a respectful and socially accepted manner. No matter what he does in the future, that message has been sent. Good for you that you've gotten it.
He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking. I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.
Long ago when I was young and trying to make a selfish man change so that he loved me the way I wanted to be loved, a wise older woman said to me "When someone tells you something bad about themselves, believe them." She was right. He had told me what he was like, once upon a time. He had said "I'm not good at relationships." Guess what? He wasn't good at relationships and I suffered because I was so narcissistic that I thought I could fix it for him with the specialness of my love. It would be different for me. It is an odd feature of narcissists that they often do warn you about themselves. They warn you once. If you then offer yourself up as a sacrifice, they will gladly take that sacrifice. (As an aside, this also holds true for narcissistic bosses. When you go to a job interview, listen very carefully to what they say about themselves. If they denigrate their other employees, or say or imply that they have difficulty with relationships, do not take the job.)
You now know this person is bad news and bad for you. The pain you are experiencing will end as long as you accept it and acknowledge that it will pass and you will be better for it, stronger, and above all, free. You will also have an incredibly valuable insight: if someone else doesn't meet you halfway, there is no relationship and there will never be a relationship.
Those of us who are children of narcissists learn our own lack of worth. We learn that only constant striving to please another person will save us from punishment. We learn that others' happiness is our only excuse for wasting oxygen by living. Consequently, when we go out into the world on our own, we undervalue ourselves. We give too much and ask too little and we persevere when withdrawal is the right choice. At the same time, we've been to believe that we can fix other people's lives. Then we end up being the victims of alcoholics, people with NPD and others who behave narcissistically. I think all of us who have suffered as a result of our abusive upbringing has had the experience you are having at least once! So hang in there. You aren't alone, it doesn't last and you don't ever have to go through it again!
Chris2
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Could you drop his books and house key off on the porch when you know he will not be home? If this seems to scary/tempting for you, why not mail them to him?
bean
He is away most of the coming week, so I could take them. But I don't want to seem like a stalker by going in that direction at present. Actually, I know someone who lives nearby, so I could leave them with that person, a mutual friend. That might work, but it doesn't have to be now. I can do it in a few weeks time, once I feel better.
I have a terrible feeling if I wrote here all that I have done to win this person's love it will seem as if I am rather odd. I really am happy with very little in return for what I do, like it says in the Bible feeding off the crumbs falling under the table. It is when the crumbs are denied to me, and I am told I am wrong to feel used, that it becomes much clearer that this relationship is built on fantasy, perhaps on both sides.
Thanks Penelope.
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Hi October,
Sorry you are going through this. You deserve so much better from your friends. He has no empathy? Sounds like you are very wise to walk away. I like Bean's idea. His stuff isn't really your "problem" per se, but it would probably be a relief to make a clean break.
I think you are right. I will set a date, and take the stuff to his friend's house then. But not now. Now is time for me.
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I do understand- letting go is so painful for me too, do you understand yourself and why you hang on for grim life ( and it is a grim life the way someone treats you once they realise you'll stick with them no matter what they do to you ) ?
The nearest I can get to the reason is that I grew up with an Nmum, and an older brother. So if I do not have a brother figure around, I do not know who I am. It is as if I have another half, which is missing, and he completes it. First my brother, then my h, then after the divorce my first counsellor, and then John. The most important part of this relationship to me is having someone to laugh with, and share time with. I am not really sure who I am without an older brother like this. This is why I think this is very difficult for me to let go of. First because the emotional attachment is at a level I cannot seem to reach, and second because I was always used to being dominated by ob, and I adored him for it. He was the best I had at a time when there was no other parenting around, and so I am really easy to hook into an abusive (platonic) relationship with men.
And I still give people a 100 chances and never totally write someone off. But no more clinging or desperate behaviour.
I think it is nice not to write him off. Clearly there must be something good about him, somewhere, for me to stick with this one for almost ten years. But I think if I have become an irritant to him, then it is right to have some space.
In fact getting used to not doing anything when there's emotional agitation inside you is probably the key- so focus on other things, do somethig else.
You are soooo right on this one. I have hoovered the upstairs of my house today, and tried to keep busy as much as I can, and talked with girlfriends on the phone (both of whom think it right to stop this relationship now), and I have picked up the phone ten times or more and put it down again. Same with writing an email. Wrote it. Deleted it. :?
Because you are pointing at the heart of the problem right here:
He can be supportive, up to a point, but always on his own terms, and because there is so little other support around, it has always been better than nothing.
You do have other support- us- and you can fill your life with good positive things and people.
Thank you. :cry:
you're the same person you were last week with a little more self-esteem and not prepared to let a feeling of emptiness drive you to doing and saying desperate things.
If he's going to come around he will October, if he's not then walk away. It's okay, you will not die from the pain, it will fade once you stop trying to make him care more and detach.
No, I will not die from pain. If that were possible, I would have been dead years ago. I am a Survivor. 8)
Who else cares? Focus on them, and look for more people to give your love to who will take it and enjoy it, and give you feedback and warmth of their own.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I really need to find a way to get out of my house more.
Can anyone help with that? I am social phobic, because I get triggered by rejection into ptsd symptoms, which then last days. Flashbacks, nighmares, lack of sleep, anxiety, exhaustion, that kind of thing. If I stay home I avoid it all. Used to be, if I went to John's, and spent the day, I could pretend to be normal, and just fit in. But now I need to do something to avoid closing down further, which is what I do when I have this kind of thing happen.
Thanks, Write, and everyone. I feel so alone, and it is good to have people who understand. (((((((((hugs)))))))))
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October, hon, look around...go out to positive things, events, readings, music, group activities, volunteering things...
You will find new friends when you make yourself available to them.
I am SO happy to hear you've made this choice about him (I'm very impressed by your wisdom in stopping the email...that is so smart. Toxic addictive email is an awful thing when relationships end.)
That all sounds so hard. Going out into the garden is difficult enough, without all that. D wanted a paper today, so I drove her to the nearest shops, but I sat in the car, and I felt as if I were just nothing. I would have gone into the shop if she wanted me to, but it was a relief not to have to face people.
I think I am happy with it as well. Somewhere. :lol:
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Once they are in the mail, keep your vow. Every time he pops into your mind, visualize a giant broom that sweeps him out as though he were a noxious insect. ... It took a while, but it worked, and I didn't wear out my friends, because I talked about it once, then I stopped.
I have talked today with two friends, and I don't intend to carry on. As you say, once is ok. Both say that it is time for me to say enough is enough, because if what I am to him is not enough, then nothing will ever be enough.
When you tried to contact this man and he didn't respond, he was sending you a clear message that he does not value you in a respectful and socially accepted manner. No matter what he does in the future, that message has been sent. Good for you that you've gotten it.
Yes, I got that message all right. The message was, it is ok for both me and him to be hurt, as long as his other friend is ok. He said, he felt bad about leaving my house so soon after getting there, but J needed to get back home. The way I see it, if he felt bad, he knew it was wrong.
He told me once he had no empathy, and like a fool I thought he was joking. I think now he was telling the truth, and what I thought was empathy was just a kind of detached interest in seeing another creature squirm.
Long ago when I was young and trying to make a selfish man change so that he loved me the way I wanted to be loved, a wise older woman said to me "When someone tells you something bad about themselves, believe them." She was right.
She certainly was. This is one to teach d, as soon as poss. Don't do what I did, learn from it. :lol:
You now know this person is bad news and bad for you. The pain you are experiencing will end as long as you accept it and acknowledge that it will pass and you will be better for it, stronger, and above all, free. You will also have an incredibly valuable insight: if someone else doesn't meet you halfway, there is no relationship and there will never be a relationship.
I have known it, and then forgotten it, many times. This is the sad thing. I am not sure where love ends and addiction begins. :(
Those of us who are children of narcissists learn our own lack of worth. We learn that only constant striving to please another person will save us from punishment. We learn that others' happiness is our only excuse for wasting oxygen by living. Consequently, when we go out into the world on our own, we undervalue ourselves. We give too much and ask too little and we persevere when withdrawal is the right choice. At the same time, we've been to believe that we can fix other people's lives. Then we end up being the victims of alcoholics, people with NPD and others who behave narcissistically. I think all of us who have suffered as a result of our abusive upbringing has had the experience you are having at least once! So hang in there. You aren't alone, it doesn't last and you don't ever have to go through it again!
Chris2
Thanks, Chris. This is certainly true of me, and if nothing else said d of Nmum, then this description would be a very good indicator. I think I will allow one week for moping, and then make some plans for moving on.
Would anyone else know the feeling that you think through the other person. Instead of thinking, what would be best for me to do, it is filtered through what would John want me to do. I am finding even writing here, this filter keep getting in the way, and having to be pushed aside. I have to find out much more strongly who I am, and where my own boundaries end. My family had very poor boundaries, and do not respect any kind of integrity, whether of time, home or whatever. Except they never ever touch. I think it is called enmeshment. I am afraid I might have this with John too, so need to disentangle. Maybe those books need to go sooner, rather than later.
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Hi October. You might try looking at it as an adventure and a challenge. What happens to you if you let go of this so called friend? What is the worst that might happen? You might have to spend some time alone, and this is not necessarily a negative thing. Maybe solitude is actually preferable to toxic relationships?
I think Chris2 made some excellent comments. Children from an N dominated environment seem to lose (or never learn) the necessary defenses against destructive people and relationships. Just this morning I dodged an encounter with a toxic anti friend. First I avoid the guy, then I feel guilty for doing it. Why do I feel guilty for avoiding abuse? I have figured out it is a product of my upbringing, when putting up with toxic people was necessary for survival. It's powerful conditioning, but now I can make a choice.
It seems to me you have the situation figured out, now it's just a matter of getting through the "withdrawal" phase and into a new sense of freedom. The philosopher Sartre once said "life only begins on the other side of despair". As you said in the last sentence, it seems a good idea to get rid of the books e.t.c.. sooner than later.
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Hi October. You might try looking at it as an adventure and a challenge. What happens to you if you let go of this so called friend? What is the worst that might happen? You might have to spend some time alone, and this is not necessarily a negative thing. Maybe solitude is actually preferable to toxic relationships?
I think Chris2 made some excellent comments. Children from an N dominated environment seem to lose (or never learn) the necessary defenses against destructive people and relationships. Just this morning I dodged an encounter with a toxic anti friend. First I avoid the guy, then I feel guilty for doing it. Why do I feel guilty for avoiding abuse? I have figured out it is a product of my upbringing, when putting up with toxic people was necessary for survival. It's powerful conditioning, but now I can make a choice.
It seems to me you have the situation figured out, now it's just a matter of getting through the "withdrawal" phase and into a new sense of freedom. The philosopher Sartre once said "life only begins on the other side of despair". As you said in the last sentence, it seems a good idea to get rid of the books e.t.c.. sooner than later.
Thanks Tjr. You are right about the guilt. Lots of that. However, made it through day two, with only one attempt to compose an email, which I then deleted. And no temptation at all to pick up the phone. It is getting easier. :lol:
Email started, why is it that when I say 'I am hurt', this sounds to you like 'I hate you, your friends and everything you stand for.'
Then I thought, who cares, and deleted it. 8)
As for the worst that could happen, with clinical depression of 9 years standing, I don't think we want to go there. It is not going to happen. :)
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Hi October,
I've been away this weekend and will read this thread more thoroughly in the next few days. For the email problem though--I am currently at the end of the second month of not emailing my N-co-worker. One of the things I did at first was to compose an email saying what I wanted to tell him, then send it to myself. I stored these in their own folder and then read them again a week or so later. And was so glad I hadn't actually sent them to him!!! Reading them later I was able to be more objective and could see that he wouldn't have answered them anyway. Which would have hurt my feelings badly.
I still look for emails from him, I'm still not detached completely. I expect that to take a long time. That is part of the process of letting go, too. But he hasn't sent any during this time either. Obviously, I was a very small part of his life.
He told you he has no empathy. I guess he would know, wouldn't he? I should have believed my N when he told me certain things. It was actually all out there on the table the first day. But I spent nearly two years disbelieving the evidence. It was a learning process, but all in all, I'm not sure learning what I learned was worth the pain those two years have contained.
I don't have any good suggestions for a way to socialize without having this person around. I struggle with that myself and am muddling along and making only very slow progress. I would say, resist the urge to just jump into the next new friendship that comes along. That person will probably be N-like or otherwise not good for you. Maybe just spend some time observing and assessing. In doses you can handle. I know some people who are homebodies and happy with that. They only go out once in awhile. I do know you have PTSD. But maybe it will turn out that underneath it all you are a homebody at heart.
Also, I would mail him all his stuff and be done with it. Don't go to his house or his neighborhood. That will just stir it up again.
Love, Pennyplant
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I really need to find a way to get out of my house more.
Can anyone help with that? I am social phobic, because I get triggered by rejection into ptsd symptoms, which then last days. Flashbacks, nighmares, lack of sleep, anxiety, exhaustion, that kind of thing. If I stay home I avoid it all. Used to be, if I went to John's, and spent the day, I could pretend to be normal, and just fit in. But now I need to do something to avoid closing down further, which is what I do when I have this kind of thing happen.
Hi October,
I was wondering how you are doing with the withdrawal - hope you are ok.
I don't know if I have PTSD, but I struggle so much with what you describe. I am afraid to go grocery shopping or put gas in the car. I get nervous at the movies, because I am afraid the 16-year-old-movie usher might chastise me for something or other. There is always tension in my body, tiring. I get nightmares, insomnia, exhaustion after percieved rejection (real or not). So, the following thoughts are probably the bliind leading the blind....
In past years, I detested superficial conversations, because I desperately wanted a deep, meaningful interaction. I wanted to connect and be accepted, understood. But in the past couple weeks, I have been trying to enjoy the smaller interactions - like a confidence builder. I had a conversation with an acquaintance yesterday. I had to spend part of the day with this person for work, and would not have done it otherwise. We just talked about movies, laughed about junk food, talked about work. Nothing special, but it was nice. No one talked badly about anyone else. It was good to know that A) when I have to, I can carry on a conversation, and B) not everyone on the planet is a mean-spirited user.
Lately, I am trying to pat myself on the back for experiencing (and surviving) every tiny social interaction. If I have to run in a shop to buy milk (oh, horror, anxiety!), and the cashier doesn't even smile or say Hi (may I crawl under a rock now, please?!?), I remind myself that their behavior has nothing to do with me, and commend myself for surviving the interaction. If instead we have a two sentence exchange of something resembling superficial conversation, that's good, too. I'll take it. Good on me. I am working on these baby steps now, and will work on finding closer friends another day.
On another note: Pretending to be normal - that is my goal sometimes, too. It would be so nice to pretend like all my fears were gone and just carry on a conversation with someone. But, I recently read a book called "There is Nothing Wrong with You" by Cheri Huber. It uses the principles of Zen to teach self-love and acceptance, so that no matter how you are feeling (even if you are feeling like a loner/homebody), you can feel like that is normal and ok, because it's just a part of who you are at this point in your life. Not to say that you can't have goals - like if you think being more social would bring you happiness. So I try to remember that book whenever I am beating myself up for being a homebody or having anxiety. Just a thought.
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Oct,
Long ago when I was young and trying to make a selfish man change so that he loved me the way I wanted to be loved, a wise older woman said to me "When someone tells you something bad about themselves, believe them."
that is sooooooooo true! i remember Jodi telling me "L, if you are doing something and I see that you are right, i will roll out the red carpet for you! But just be glad you are not on my bad side, know what i mean?" (said with an evil glare in her eye, but a very flat look on her face)
Later in the relationship, her husband upset her by making noise when her mother had asked me to play worship music on my keyboard. She refused to talk to him for almost the rest of the day. She came to me and said "remember what I told you? I feel he was WRONG toward you, so I'm pissed! Aren't you GLAD you're on my GOOD side?" (an eerie feeling came over me)
Even later, while I was at her house pointing out the evidences of their family being majorly DYSFUNCTIONAL, esp for an ministry family, I was "treated" to a taste of what she had told me...I was the bad guy on her "bad side" and she almost took me to court over having EXPOSED what really went on behind those closed doors! She told me at one point, "you don't know how CLOSE I came to having the police over to your house to confiscate everything I ever gave you!"
Vindictive B****! is what I had thought at that time and SICK PERSON is what I KNOW now!
Oh also, Jodi told me in the beginning, "I love DEEPLY"...deeper than most people do. I should have interpreted that as "I love OBSESSIVELY and also PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVELY and I love until I decide it's time to DEVALUE you for not being WORTH my love in MY MIND, when you dare to DISAPPOINT ME! It's an all black/all white thing, where you are the princess of their life for a while, but then, when you fail to be exactly what they want, you are the DEVIL himself and need to be and are deserving of PUNISHMENT!
usually withdrawl of affection, retailiation, humiliation, false accusations, projections, bait and switches, double-messages, power posturing, or just out and out CRUELTY!
welcome to my former world
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I had a "friend" at church whom I recognized as N but still found interesting to talk to.
I told him truthfully a few months back that he had really let me down (he'd made all sorts of promises about very specific things he would do to help me in my job search and never did one of them...it was all "spout", no whale).
He apologized profusely and I think he felt ashamed.
Anyway, saw him Sunday for the first time in a while and his whole demeanor toward me has changed completely. Cold as ice.
Shudder.
Hops
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Oh also, Jodi told me in the beginning, "I love DEEPLY"...deeper than most people do. I should have interpreted that as "I love OBSESSIVELY and also PASSIVE/AGGRESSIVELY and I love until I decide it's time to DEVALUE you for not being WORTH my love in MY MIND, when you dare to DISAPPOINT ME! It's an all black/all white thing, where you are the princess of their life for a while, but then, when you fail to be exactly what they want, you are the DEVIL himself and need to be and are deserving of PUNISHMENT!
usually withdrawl of affection, retailiation, humiliation, false accusations, projections, bait and switches, double-messages, power posturing, or just out and out CRUELTY!
welcome to my former world
This all rings so true. There are elements of narcissism in all my friends, and very deeply in my family, who are all either N or co. But the immediate withdrawal of affection, retaliation, accusations, anathematising and pathologising; these are the signs of a true N proficient, as you say.
The cruelty of this kind of action, towards a person who they know full well to be already damaged, is totally beyond comprehension, unless you bring the N explanation into the picture, when it then makes perfect sense.
This week I have swung between thinking I am vastly overreacting for the sake of just a few minutes. And then I think of all that I have done, and the love I have shown this person, and I think, where has that gone, not in my mind, but in his. There is hardly a corner of his house that he can look towards, and not find me there. And then I look around my own house, and there is nothing of him here at all. A book I was given for Christmas, and was not able to finish reading because it is just not me. The books I borrowed in order to write something for him. And the keys which have now been sent back in the post, without a covering note.
The first day this happened, when I was in so much pain, I saw Meatloaf on the telly, and that is helping me such a lot, "I would do anything for love, anything you've been thinking of ... but I just won't do that." :D
Or, from a Christian perspective, I have lived on the crumbs which have fallen from his table for so long, while giving him the first of my strength (after d of course) and the best of my time, and now he has denied me even those crumbs. So, the pain remains but is fading, and I am sure I am right to put an end to this.
Thanks, ReallyME :)
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I had a "friend" at church whom I recognized as N but still found interesting to talk to.
I told him truthfully a few months back that he had really let me down (he'd made all sorts of promises about very specific things he would do to help me in my job search and never did one of them...it was all "spout", no whale).
He apologized profusely and I think he felt ashamed.
Anyway, saw him Sunday for the first time in a while and his whole demeanor toward me has changed completely. Cold as ice.
You did well to cope with that, Hops. I know I cannot be where John is at present, because I am too easily hooked in again. He has been, in fantasy at least, so much a part of my being strong and carrying on. If I saw him as you saw your N, that would be very bad for me. And I have no doubt whatever that he is capable of it, and on a whim could be either way towards him, at this moment. It would make no difference whatever.
There is one other thing that has really bothered me over the past day or so. The holiday which he took last week was to Poland, and he visited Auschwitz with his friend. In the car on the way back from the airport he said that it did not touch him emotionally, and that he and his friend had a very difficult time preventing themselves from laughing and sniggering at the tour guide, who had very poor English, and they imitated his accent for me. Admittedly, I would have found it difficult to be ushered around too quickly, but I am not sure that a sneering attitude is one which many people could adopt in such a place. That strikes me as very N indeed. I am not sure what others would think. They said they found the suitcases moving, but very little else, and that they felt nothing whatever in the showers, because they were too busy ridiculing the tour guide's accent and very poor English. :?
When I am very badly hurt I know that I lose my sense of humour, so maybe I am just missing the whole point here, and it is funny to hear someone talk about the Chinese outside, instead of the chimneys. From the inside, I cannot tell. Is it me, or is it him/them.
This is where I lose touch with reality, because my internal reality is too fragile to withstand a strong assault from other people with very invasive egos, and who I allow close enough to be able to alter my reality like this. It is a real struggle to fight my way out of it. Usually I get there in the end, but with anyone else at all, I have a friend to help me, in John. He can see it if it is anyone else at atll. But if it is him, then suddenly I am not able to see the other person's point of view, which is so untrue it is heartbreaking. My whole problem is that I cannot see my own point of view until it is far, far too late.
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Hi October,
I've been away this weekend and will read this thread more thoroughly in the next few days. For the email problem though--I am currently at the end of the second month of not emailing my N-co-worker. One of the things I did at first was to compose an email saying what I wanted to tell him, then send it to myself. I stored these in their own folder and then read them again a week or so later. And was so glad I hadn't actually sent them to him!!! Reading them later I was able to be more objective and could see that he wouldn't have answered them anyway. Which would have hurt my feelings badly.
I still look for emails from him, I'm still not detached completely. I expect that to take a long time. That is part of the process of letting go, too. But he hasn't sent any during this time either. Obviously, I was a very small part of his life.
Well done for managing two months of this! I am now in day four, and think that a minor miracle, to be honest, so two months is wonderful. However, it is as people said. The pain does get less, and I am managing to move forward, in baby steps.
He told you he has no empathy. I guess he would know, wouldn't he? I should have believed my N when he told me certain things. It was actually all out there on the table the first day. But I spent nearly two years disbelieving the evidence. It was a learning process, but all in all, I'm not sure learning what I learned was worth the pain those two years have contained.
Somehow, it never is worth it, is it? Sometimes people say, that which does not kill you makes you stronger. That is not always true. Sometimes it takes a great deal out of you, that you cannot afford to give, whether physically, emotionally or financially. All three, in my case. And spiritually as well.
I know some people who are homebodies and happy with that. They only go out once in awhile. I do know you have PTSD. But maybe it will turn out that underneath it all you are a homebody at heart.
By nature I am introverted, but at the same time can be very outgoing and find making friends the easiest thing in the world. Give me half an hour with anyone, and they will think well of me and my extraordinary empathy, consideration, compassion etc etc. Being an ACON makes that second nature. But whether I am capable of achieving mutuality in friendship, where I gain as much as I give, or at least where it never arises as an issue, is a different matter. Of late I have been too fragile even to psychic assault from complete strangers that I have chosen to hide. But it makes my home into a prison of sorts, because I long to be out there, among people, where I belong. :(
Also, I would mail him all his stuff and be done with it. Don't go to his house or his neighborhood. That will just stir it up again.
The keys have gone, as I said. They were the worst. I don't normally have them, so it was right to send them back. The books are too heavy at present, but if I go to my cousin's house at Christmas I will drop them somewhere en route, because by then I will know this one is dead, and I will be stronger to go round nearby. But I will not go to the house.
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I was wondering how you are doing with the withdrawal - hope you are ok.
I am not sure ok is the right way to describe it, but I am alive, and I have not texted, emailed, phoned or anything else all week, which is so amazingly strong of me, I can hardly believe it.
Meanwhile, my central heating has broken down, and I have some kind of cold or something. Best described as low grade infection, of indeterminate kind. :)
So, to sort the heating, I am hoping and praying that I can do it myself. This happened last winter and cost me about £200 to fix, and I don't have that kind of money lying around. I have been to the builders store, and bought some system cleaner, and I have asked a girlfriend of mine, who also doesn't have a clue what to do, to come over one day, and have a trying to sort it out together day. And if it fails, we can have a laugh about it together. Apparently, I have to partially drain the system, then put the cleaner in, and then fill the system again and run the heating. At that point, I am hoping that the block is only minor, and the cleaner will be able to reach it and clear it. If not, I will need to call a plumber in. But if I am very lucky indeed, the system will work, and then I can run it for a month, and then drain it down again, and then put in what is called inhibitor, to stop it clogging up again.
Lord, have mercy!!! :)
I told my gf, why is it that we are so totally, utterly alone, at times when we need help and support from those we have helped and supported endlessly for months and years. What makes us so completely isolated. And of course, part of the answer is that we seem from the outside to be so capable, so able, and people ignore what we say, in favour of their fantasy that we will cope because we always have, and we willl survive because we always have.
But at least at present the focus is firmly on me, my house, my d, my needs. And until I sort everything that needs to be sorted, and that only I can sort, then there is less time for worrying about anyone else.
I don't know if I have PTSD, but I struggle so much with what you describe. I am afraid to go grocery shopping or put gas in the car. I get nervous at the movies, because I am afraid the 16-year-old-movie usher might chastise me for something or other. There is always tension in my body, tiring. I get nightmares, insomnia, exhaustion after percieved rejection (real or not). So, the following thoughts are probably the bliind leading the blind....
It sounds like ptsd symptoms. If you do an online search to find out more, it might help. One good place is the Sidran foundation. The exhaustion after rejection is because of retraumatisation, and it builds in layers over time, preventing you from going out. I think this is well worth you looking into, because it takes specialist care to get out of this, once you get in.
It also takes strong social and family support, which for an ACON is just impossible. Which, in my worst moments, leads me into complete despondency. I cannot do this on my own, and yet none of the support systems which would help me are anywhere to be found. Here online, and two friends. I am not sure it will be possible without more, and yet how do I find it, when I am not capable of choosing the right people? :?
A) when I have to, I can carry on a conversation, and B) not everyone on the planet is a mean-spirited user.
A, ditto, B, are you sure? :lol: Thanks for the book recommendation, and thanks too for the support. I really appreciate it. ((((((((hugs))))))
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Oct: Or, from a Christian perspective, I have lived on the crumbs which have fallen from his table for so long, while giving him the first of my strength (after d of course) and the best of my time, and now he has denied me even those crumbs. So, the pain remains but is fading, and I am sure I am right to put an end to this.
It fascinates me that you used this analogy of "crumbs from the table" because during a trip to stay at a cabin and BOND for ministry with Jodi and another lady, Jodi did this spiritual thing with us, where she told us to break open our "alabaster box" and give Jesus whatever we needed to ask forgiveness for. When I told Jodi that I had already talked to Jesus and my slate was clean, she became INSENSED and told me "FINE, then this is not for you. Go to BED!" After that, Jodi ignored me and spent most of the time with the other lady, cuddling her, "ministering" to her, to a point where I was feeling like "HEY THAT IS MY BEST FRIEND, NOT YOURS!!!" Yes, I was very JEALOUS, especially since, before this trip, the other lady was trying to divide Jodi and me.
One day on the trip, I brought Jodi a note, when I couldn't stand anymore of the "punishment." The note said "even the woman in the Bible got some CRUMBS! I would be happy to settle for even that!" What I meant was that I wanted Jodi to pray for me, talk to me...ANYTHING BUT IGNORE ME AS A PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING ALREADY DEALT WITH MY OWN STUFF AND NOT NEEDING HER HELP! the weird thing is, Jodi is big on preaching about how clingy and needy people are, so I was trying my darndest to show that I could stand on my own, and was PUNISHED for it.
~L
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Oct: Or, from a Christian perspective, I have lived on the crumbs which have fallen from his table for so long, while giving him the first of my strength (after d of course) and the best of my time, and now he has denied me even those crumbs. So, the pain remains but is fading, and I am sure I am right to put an end to this.
It fascinates me that you used this analogy of "crumbs from the table" because during a trip to stay at a cabin and BOND for ministry with Jodi and another lady, Jodi did this spiritual thing with us, where she told us to break open our "alabaster box" and give Jesus whatever we needed to ask forgiveness for. When I told Jodi that I had already talked to Jesus and my slate was clean, she became INSENSED and told me "FINE, then this is not for you. Go to BED!" After that, Jodi ignored me and spent most of the time with the other lady, cuddling her, "ministering" to her, to a point where I was feeling like "HEY THAT IS MY BEST FRIEND, NOT YOURS!!!" Yes, I was very JEALOUS, especially since, before this trip, the other lady was trying to divide Jodi and me.
One day on the trip, I brought Jodi a note, when I couldn't stand anymore of the "punishment." The note said "even the woman in the Bible got some CRUMBS! I would be happy to settle for even that!" What I meant was that I wanted Jodi to pray for me, talk to me...ANYTHING BUT IGNORE ME AS A PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING ALREADY DEALT WITH MY OWN STUFF AND NOT NEEDING HER HELP! the weird thing is, Jodi is big on preaching about how clingy and needy people are, so I was trying my darndest to show that I could stand on my own, and was PUNISHED for it.
~L
It looks as if you committed the sin of having another god besides her. Ns want to be worshipped, and they want to actually be god. They want to be the minster who everyone turns to, and regards as second only to Christ himself. Except in their heart of heart, they are second to nobody.
I am glad the crumbs analogy works for you too. I think Ns find ACONs such as us to be useful to wipe their feet on, but somehow never manage to get the balance quite right. I am sure that for a few moments of considerate prayer you would have taken a lot from this person, just as I have taken a lot over the years.
I think also the idea of divide and rule is an N one. When I have several friends together, I am happy for them to mix and get to know one another. But the Ns keep their 'friends' compartmentalised, and everything goes through them, if you know what I mean. Such as the relationship you describe - you might see it as a triangle, with equal people at the corners. But Ns only see it as them at the top, and everyone noding off from them, not having any other relationship, of which they are not a part. If there are a hundred people around, then they are in the middle, and everyone else is a spoke in their wheel, with everything going through them. No cross connections of which they are not the centre.
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Oct,
you have a truly BRILLIANT MIND! I loved your analogy in what you wrote, about the wheel with the spokes, with everything centering around them and going through them! WOW!
With this other lady, I'll call Kate, and Jodi and me, here is how it went. Jodi and I were close and then Kate and I were close, as I was ministering to Kate. Well Jodi was out of town and I contacted her to help give me advice about Kate, which she did. Kate told me "When Jodi comes back, please don't forget about ME." Of course I introduced Kate to Jodi and immediately Kate began trying to woo Jodi over to her and away from me, by being sweet when all 3 of us were together, but lashing out at me privately where Jodi never knew. I would tell Jodi about how "Kate is not acting nice to me in private like she does when it's all 3 of us," but Jodi didn't believe it at first...until I got SMART! During one of Kate's lambastments of me over the phone, I TAPE RECORDED HER and later played it for Jodi. Jodi, having an image to of course keep up, was horrified, and so told me "look, you don't have to be nice to Kate anymore if you don't want to, ok?" Kate and i clashed big time from that point on, and eventually Jodi and I ditched her altogether so we could have our sicko "relationship" as a dyad instead of a triad. Until I spent 6 weeks with her, everything went ok, after that, well...you know the rest of the story.
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Oct,
you have a truly BRILLIANT MIND! I loved your analogy in what you wrote, about the wheel with the spokes, with everything centering around them and going through them! WOW!
Sadly, Ns can't cope with competition, and particularly hate competition where the third person is empathic and loving. Too much of that around and their own sham love gets shown up for what it is.
If you think of genuine sacrificial love as sunlight, and Nlove as a torch, as long as it is dark (someone is needing love) then the Nlove is a lot better than nothing, and the person who sees that it is lighter than it was will be grateful and affectionate to the N. But then if daylight comes along, a genuine compassion and giving, then it is impossible for anyone to still need the torch to see by. Even if very grateful for it, people will naturally turn to daylight, as they will naturally turn to love.
Except for Ns. In daylight they become sulky, angry, passive aggressive, jealous; you name it. They will do anything to drive the sunlight source away from them, and from the third party, so that for the third person darkness returns, and the N can once again shine forth the brilliance of their torchlight love. Ns can fake sunlight, but they cannot sustain it for long, and if you look close, it is all about them, and lacks integrity.
A true friend will not care how many friends you have, or what support you gain from them. She will be happy for you, and with you, and will love your friends for your sake. An N will sneer at your other friends behind their backs, deride them to you, and pathologise their behaviours. She will also do all she can to prevent you receiving any crumbs from anywhere, least of all from herself, unless you are solely dependant on her.
Thanks for saying such nice things, btw. Somewhere some part of me remembers that I can do some things, when I try. But there are a lot of cobwebs over those memories, and it is good to hear it again. (((((((((hugs)))))))
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Hey Oct...first, thank you for replying to my post. I appreciate that.
I have a couple things to share about your reply :)
you said: A true friend will not care how many friends you have, or what support you gain from them. She will be happy for you, and with you, and will love your friends for your sake. An N will sneer at your other friends behind their backs, deride them to you, and pathologise their behaviours. She will also do all she can to prevent you receiving any crumbs from anywhere, least of all from herself, unless you are solely dependant on her.
About the "sneer at your other friends behind their backs, deride them to you, and pathologize their behavior"...oh GOSH that was JODI! I wanted her to "meet" my foster mom on the phone, but Jodi said, "no, I can't do that...you remember how, when you introduced Dove (past best friend) to people, and things got messed up, well same thing...and I just don't want that to happen. Next thing I know, within about 3 months after that, she was telling me "All the mental issues you have, are based on your foster mother never growing up. I think there is some demonic stuff going on there too. IT's up to you, but IIIIIIIIIII don't want anything to do with her." (this was said because I told Jodi that my foster Mom decorated her room with Winnie the Pooh)...soon after that, when we were not "friends" anymore, Jodi informed me that she was decorating her 13 year old daughter's room in "princess" pattern. (I thought, "ummmmmmm what's wrong with this picture")
Another thing, I used to tape Jodi's sermons online with a tape recorder. WHen I told her this, SHE FLIPPED OUT AND SCOLDED ME, telling me "you wouldn't take pictures of someone who was alseep would you? that's like doing THAT!" I informed her, "well, actually my family used to take pictures of each other when they were asleep." SHE WAS HORRIFIED!!!
Again, after me split up, Jodi came to me, bragging about her photo she put online, and also telling me "oh don't worry if you miss my message (preaching), IT IS ON TAPE! ....I HATE TO SOUND CALLOUS HERE, BUT I WANTED TO LITERALLY CLIMB THROUGH THE COMPUTER SCREEN AND CHOKE THE LIFE OUT OF HER AT THAT POINT, SAYING "HOW DARE YOUUUUUUUUUUU, YOU B****!" (I also did not tell you...she first went to my former best friend, telling her that she believed I was a STALKER cause I taped her...and they both ganged up on me in a private room, comparing notes about how I acted while I was in both of their houses....but guess what....I TAPED THAT TOO! HEHE, MY OWN FORM OF GETTING JUSTICE OF JUST HOW CREEPY AND CRUEL N'S AND BPD'S CAN BE!
Regarding getting crumbs from her, unless I was totally dependent on her...at that point, I WAS totally emotionally dependent on her approval, acceptance "prayers" (should be spelled "prey ers")....but that did not compell her to pay attention to me like she was to Kate, either. It was all so weird and distorted for sure!
~L
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Who am I if no longer John's friend?
Hi October,
You are the very same person. Because John was never really your friend, was he? It was an illiusion. So you migth as wel ask yourself, 'who am I now that I see the reality of what John is?'.
Socially, well were I to advise you, it would be the blind leading the partially sighted. The ways I distract myself are to read, go to libraries (librarians are usually nice and helpful, and you can learn and share so many things you are really sincerely interested in), and movies. Make sure they are uplifting movies.
You could also volunteer at a homeless shelter, the homeless are not normally judgemental and it feels good to help others. The fellow volunteers could be nice people too.
If you need to tell what you did, this is the place for it. I don't think you can shock any of us.
Good luck
Plucky
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Regarding getting crumbs from her, unless I was totally dependent on her...at that point, I WAS totally emotionally dependent on her approval, acceptance "prayers" (should be spelled "prey ers")....but that did not compell her to pay attention to me like she was to Kate, either. It was all so weird and distorted for sure!
~L
I am glad things are becoming clearer to you, reallyME. ((((((((hugs))))))
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October,
He told you he had no empathy...and he was telling the truth. I was horrified by this (not because I'm naive and don't see this kind of behavior in the world, but because it felt like horror to imagine you being vulnerable to a person who would respond to Auschwitz in this way:
They said they found the suitcases moving, but very little else, and that they felt nothing whatever in the showers, because they were too busy ridiculing the tour guide's accent and very poor English.
When I am very badly hurt I know that I lose my sense of humour, so maybe I am just missing the whole point here, and it is funny to hear someone talk about the Chinese outside, instead of the chimneys. From the inside, I cannot tell. Is it me, or is it him/them.
I think it's a very broken moral compass. People who are ethically absent from the world often do tell stories on themselves. They are really so awful that many of us (especially the traumatized) kind of shake off the stories...too much to contemplate. And on we go busily helping this person find rationalizations for "what's good about them."
I am SO impressed that you are not shaking off who he is, any longer. Sure he may be capable of some goodness now and then. But you are claiming now, for yourself, that in consideration of his general emptiness...that's not good enough.
Bravo!
Hops
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This is where I lose touch with reality, because my internal reality is too fragile to withstand a strong assault from other people with very invasive egos, and who I allow close enough to be able to alter my reality like this. It is a real struggle to fight my way out of it. Usually I get there in the end, but with anyone else at all, I have a friend to help me, in John. He can see it if it is anyone else at atll. But if it is him, then suddenly I am not able to see the other person's point of view, which is so untrue it is heartbreaking. My whole problem is that I cannot see my own point of view until it is far, far too late.
Hi October,
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. It almost sounds as if you feel that you are invisible or disappear in the face of a strong personality. Or that you feel ungrounded unless another person is keeping you down to Earth. And that John was filling this role for you many times, and without him you feel you are missing an important part of being able to feel yourself? Do you feel like talkign about this? I know the touchy feely stuff is not my forte so I might be so terribly off base. I just felt that you were saying something important and I am not sure I got it.
Plucky
PS the Auschwitz thing is beyond icky. They are inhuman. If John was your bellwether, I know you can do better than that on your worst day!
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Hi October,
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. It almost sounds as if you feel that you are invisible or disappear in the face of a strong personality. Or that you feel ungrounded unless another person is keeping you down to Earth. And that John was filling this role for you many times, and without him you feel you are missing an important part of being able to feel yourself? Do you feel like talkign about this? I know the touchy feely stuff is not my forte so I might be so terribly off base. I just felt that you were saying something important and I am not sure I got it.
Plucky
PS the Auschwitz thing is beyond icky. They are inhuman. If John was your bellwether, I know you can do better than that on your worst day!
Yes, all that is true. My best theory on this is that I had no parents worth the name, and that whatever parental attachment I formed was with ob. Only he was what an ob always is; volatile, unpredictable, not wanting a ys hanging around.
So now I seem to need an ob figure to see myself through, and to provide grounding. J was always willing to allow this, because it cost him nothing whatever, and he gained a lot from having me around. But what it means for me is that I still have not found how to exist as a single entity, rather than as half of a brother:sister relationship.
If I look back on my life this is consistent. There was ob, then friend at Uni, then h, then counsellor1, then J. Always a (usually) platonic male figure. There are women friends as well, but they do not get inside my heart in the same way. They stay outside. But the men seem to not just get close, but to be part of me, in a very unsettling way. I don't go round looking for this to happen, it just seems to happen all by itself. With most people it is normal, but once in a while there is someone who seems to complete something in me, and in whom I seem to complete something in them. If this were not mixed up with dysfunction, I would call it love, but perhaps it is not quite love.
I think this is what a mother should be, if you have a decent mother, and I never did. When I look in psychology books at the pictures of those poor monkeys deprived of a mother, and in particular the one with no mother, and no substitute - the one curled up in despair at the bottom of the cage, I see who I am. I want to pick that poor monkey up and hold it. :(
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You know yourself so well. I thought: many, many people would call that love. And they do. Attachment.
maybe my mother was the wire monkey that feeds but feels very uncomfortable!
I'm glad you want to pick that monkey up and hold it. There - is the hope and the love for yourself that survives and feels and lives.......
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You know yourself so well. I thought: many, many people would call that love. And they do. Attachment.
maybe my mother was the wire monkey that feeds but feels very uncomfortable!
I'm glad you want to pick that monkey up and hold it. There - is the hope and the love for yourself that survives and feels and lives.......
Pick it up, hold it, bring it home, give it a room, feed it, find another monkey to keep it company, take it to the zoo to visit its cousins. 8)
That picture really is difficult to look at.
I think it is love too, Portia. I am going to think so. Maybe I don't always love the right people, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with loving, as long as it is focussed on what is right for the other person, which is what I always try to do.
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I want to pick that poor monkey up and hold it.
I believe that every time you pick up that monkey and hold it, you are picking yourself up and holding yourself. So get thee out to hold others!
Plucky
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I want to pick that poor monkey up and hold it.
I believe that every time you pick up that monkey and hold it, you are picking yourself up and holding yourself. So get thee out to hold others!
Plucky
K. Starting here. (((((((((((hugs)))))))))) :D
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(((((((((((((((((((((((October)))))))))))))))))))))
Hi October,
towards what qualities in the surrogate brothers are you gravitating? Do you know?
Sorry to be terse but my carpal tunnel is acting up.
Plucky