Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on October 22, 2006, 09:16:43 PM
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Hi all,
I was perusing the posts and noticed something I hadn't noticed before... that October mentioned she had agoraphobia.
Does anyone else have a phobia they'd like to share about?
I have a very strange one... Dark rooms with large fish tanks containing big fish. It is crazy, because I love pet stores (unless they have large dark tanks), I snorkle and dive, I have tanks at home. But if I get near a tank like this, I cannot breathe, I panic beyond reason and have to bolt from the room. Nothing can hold me back. I dream about it too. I dream that I am in an endless store of tanks like this and in a constant panic/frenzy. It has never made any sense to me.
I do know that when I was little, my dad had a room full of fish tanks.It was also dark. I feel it must somehomw be connected to that.
Love to all,
Beth
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Hi Beth
Spiders (but I think that's a survival reaction, not a phobia!) 8)
Walking on spiral staircases, especially ones with open steps (oooo, breaking out in a sweat here thinking about them). Once climbed the stairs inside a lighthouse and ended up flat against the wall, gasping for breath. Feels very unsafe to me.
Have you tried aversion self-therapy? Making yourself face the fish fears, making yourself stay in a room and go up to the tanks and tap them ...........etc? (I keep going up spiral staircases and it...doesn't get any better!! :?)
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What do you feel happened to you there, Beth?
Someone may have hurt you...or perhaps even a fish did something frightening.
Poor thing. I mean you, ((((((((((((Beth))))))))))))))))
My anxiety disorder, at its peak in my 20s, produced a type of agorophobic reaction. I felt dizzy in crowds and had a terrible time driving around DC, which I needed to do weekly. It was the beltway, the relentlessness of the traffic, that overwhelmed me.
Hops
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Beth,
Mice and bats (mice with wings), and power tools with sharp edges. Phobia might be too strong a word, as I don't think I would spend money on therapy since none of those things make my life difficult to live, but great fears nonetheless.
A funny story re: the fear of mice: I have a VW bug convertible which I dearly love. When the weather findly got warm enough last spring to put the top down, it wouldn't go down (it's automatic, not manual). I took it in for service. I was waiting in the lounge for the work to be done, and the service guy came and got me to show me something they had found in the car. They had the whole trunk area pulled apart and they showed me the mouse nest they had found. Apparently a mouse had chewed through the hydraulic line which operates the convertible roof. The guys were all laughing about it, but then looked at me and I was nearly hyperventilating and had gone quite pale. When I asked if the mouse could have entered my driving space, they said "Oh sure, he could have run right over your toes." At that point, I nearly passed out, while saying"You didn't just tell me that?"
Thank God that did not happen while driving on a freeway at 65 mph, as I most assuredly would have driven off the road and killed myself and perhaps others in the process. I went home and immediately put D-Con all around my garage and I have since found out that putting moth balls in the car or around the tires will keep them away. I never drive that car without thinking about it and for several weeks after the original discovery, would not drive the car with sandles on. Just thinking about it, gets my heart rate up.
Brigid
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Hi Brigid,
considering you could have killed yourself :o, have you thought about some kind of treatment? Hypnotherapy maybe? http://www.lcch.co.uk/hypnosisarticles/case_phobia.htm
I worked somewhere where mice would run up (inside) my trouser legs, just to the knee, and I'd shake them out. I didn't believe they did that until it happened to me. This is an attempt at shock therapy. Wondering how you're feeling reading that (it also happens to be true)? (At the time I just wondered what the heck they thought they were doing.)
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Portia,
Wondering how you're feeling reading that
I gasped and my palms started to sweat. I wouldn't have lasted one more day in that environment (what the heck were you doing, if you don't mind my asking?).
Hypnotherapy sounds a bit drastic for something which has never caused a life-changing event in my 56 years. Even with 3 cats in the house, I occasionally get them coming in and have even had to physically remove a couple, so I can deal with them. Just the idea of them being in a closed environment like my car where I can't get away quickly is a bit scary. But in the 40 years I have been driving, I have never had an event with one, so I guess the chances are probably pretty slim. Hopefully, the poison in the garage will keep them away.
Brigid
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Hi again Brigid
Thanks for asking. I was 19, working in a breeze-block hut with no glass in the holes for windows, making breakfasts and lunches for a bunch of men who were working the fields. It was in the middle of nowhere, right in the middle of acres of cotton fields which we drove out to every morning. And I had volunteered to do this work! Crazy! Lucky I didn’t get worse things than mice coming in though. Ah well, experience :D
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(((((((((((Beth)))))))))))
I'm sure that fear of dark fish tanks has something to do with your father and past.
(((((((((((((P & Brigid))))))))))) spiders, snakes and mice don't bother me, but I go into a Panic attack when I see a big sewer roach!!! So I know how you feel. I am convinced its because my Mother used to flip out at them when we were little (we'd regularly find them in the house, often in the tub as they'd crawl up the pipes from the sewer) and make my father kill them. There was always panic and screaming everytime we found a roach in the house. One day, I saw 100's of them coming out of a manhole in the alley behind our house. I could never shake that sight. My best friend in second grade threw on a pair of jeans that had been laying on the floor and went to school...she felt a pain up and down her leg. She went to the bathroom and pulled off her jeans and a big roach crawled out! I never laid a pair of jeans on the floor again or put on a pair without shaking them out after that!! Also, once in college I was taking an exam and I saw a big sewer roach crawl out of my backpack and wander across the room. It took everything I had to not scream and run!
:?
bean
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Hi everyone.
I always check this board daily and look to see if anyone replied to my posts or if there are others I want to reply to...I came across this phobia one, it looked interesting, and now I will share:
P.S. I talked to Jodi for a few min today. She is still self-absorbed, ignored everything I typed about what was going on with me, and just went on talking about how great she has it in life. Nowadays I just feel sad for people like that. I understand n'ism and bpd so much better these days and I can either laugh, roll my eyes or feel sad for these types of people. Always I keep them in prayer that the Lord breaks through and heals them.
ok, phobia...
I do not like HEIGHTS! I wouldn't call it a phobia cause I do not panic, though I have had two unrelated panic attacks in my life, and my heart goes out to anyone who has experienced them! VERY FRIGHTENING, as though you are about to DIE ALTOGETHER! I changed my eating habits back then and the attack never came back.
I do not enjoy being up high in towers or buildings, if there are no windows or some sort of fencing. Even with fencing, I just keep thinking "what if I fall"...so I do understand all of your fears too. I do not like high-diving boards either, nor do I really get a charge out of diving off ANY board into water...always thinking I might hit my head or become somehow disoriented and not be able to figure out where the pool wall is. So far, I have dived in class at school with no problem whatsoever, though.
~Laura
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Cure for Brigd: Pet mouse? Watching Stuart Little? (EXCELLENT movie, btw!)
Cure for PP: Ain't one. Roaches en masse, horrifying. (Never understood people who could sit through those bug movies.) Bleahhh. I remember a fad where women would glue rhinestones and such on some kind of big bug, and there was a little chain on it attached to a pin, and they'd wear it like a wandering brooch. Ick!
I can hold my D's snake but He's Just Not Into Me. And I think he's boring. (Sorry, Steve.)
Hops
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Bean
I hadn't heard of sewer roaches before! Oh... :shock: oh boy...
Laura/RM
glad about your reaction to el Jodi today! :D Nice one. 8)
Hops
I remember a fad where women would glue rhinestones and such on some kind of big bug, and there was a little chain on it attached to a pin, and they'd wear it like a wandering brooch. Ick!
What the ??!!! :shock: :roll: sick sick not right no! Totally wrong in every way! Yes that is absolute! :D
I can hold my D's snake but He's Just Not Into Me.
No emotional brain, no limbic system, whatever they tell you, you canna have a relationship with a cold-blooded reptile. It will eat you as soon as look at you! Apparently birds have similar brain structures to a limbic system, even tho' they don't have one as such (as 'my' robin will testify). African Grey parrot - now there's a great companion. 8)
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My phobia? Flying in a small plane by a window - claustrophobic!!!! I am 5 ' 10" and I just feel cramped. Same thing if I am in the back seat of a mini van or two door car - NO!!
Mice and bat story. After my divorce it was me and three little girls. Lived on a green belt. First one was I lit the gas grill and a bunch of mice jumped out. I turned off the gas and looked in...........I had started cooking a nest of baby mice. So I turned back on the gas and turned it on high and ran in the house screaming and crying.
Two weeks later I went back out and lit the grill and the exact same thing happened!~! Never cooked in that grill again!!!!!
Then once I was in my house and a bat swooped down at me and flew up the stairs. I knew my daughter was up there watching tv. I ran into her room, grabbed her and ran down the hall - the bat swooped at me and I ran screaming and wet my pants!!!! I locked myself in my room and called my dad crying and he came over with a tennis racquet!!!
More mice......................I must have had 100s..............so I finally called an exterminator............then every time I found a dead one my 7 year old and I had to sweep them up!! Mortified!!!
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I really need to be sure I am understanding what I've read here. Are we really talking about burning little baby animals to death and poisoning little animals because we're afraid of them?
Just want to be sure.
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I think the fish room had something to do with my grandmother... she was very cruel and loved to scare me. But I can't remember.
My husband unrolled a sleeping bag one night and four water roaches came scrambling out! Yuck. Also, when I lived in Moscow, if you turned on the light in the middle of the night, hundreds of roaches would scatter. Gross!!! But I don't break out in a sweat!
We got new piggies this week. My daughter and I decided we were okay with them (although she got a bit sad after because we still miss our Vincent and Piggy). At any rate, the baby crawled up her pantleg and we didn't want to hurt it, so we didn't know whether to have her stand up or unbutton her pants or what. We got him out safely!!!
I do fear heights sometimes. I get dizzy too. And I am afraid I will fall.
Storm, I think if you read Kelly's post she said she was very upset that she turned on the grill and went inside crying. We have all had accidents. I caught a gecko in the door once and he was almost, but not quite dead. I was so upset I had to have my husband come home from work and take care of him.
Love you all,
Beth
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I have to add my comment along with Stormy's. Are we talking about cooking baby animals out of fear of half-cooking them?
I was so upset I had to have my husband come home from work and take care of him.
This is better than smashing him in the door again to fully kill him. I still don't understand continuing to cook the mice. Maybe Kelly could enlighten us on her choice to do that...was it just a knee-jerk response of not wanting to check to see if any of the babies were still alive?
Please explain
~Laura
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Stormy,
Somehow poisoning seems more humane than having the cats catch and play with them until they die (which has happened several times around here). Do you have a better solution?
I love animals too, but I do have my limitations. Hops, I have had pet mice and gerbils in the past, but that did not get rid of my fear. The one time the gerbils got loose from their cage, I started to freak out and made my h at the time, catch them and then we gave them away.
My feeling is that the little critters can live their happy lives as long as it is not in my space.
Brigid
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Wow, I opened another can of worms. How do I always manage to do that?????
At any rate... Another little story for those with bat phobias...
I was in my attic room of an old college building reading dark poetry by Lermontov about demons and such when I caught something out of the corner of my eye. I thought it was just me... I was so tired, but when I saw it again, I turned... a bat had gotten into my room and was flying around. I called campus secrity and we trapped it and let it go. All summer the bats could be heard scratching on my walls when I lay down at night.
Also, here on Okinawa, our bats have a wongspan of up to 6 feet and cute fussy bodies like a teddy bear. I love them (also called flying foxes).
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Now THAT would scare the crap out of me!!
No, please, don't crucify me for being a animal killer. My parents even gave me crap because I wouldn't step on an ant or swat a fly - still won't. The grill thing was a new "litter" of extremely small, newborn mice and when I peeked in they were clearly dead. And yes, a knee jerk reaction was what it was - panic. And the Orkin man? I didn't call him until my nine year old would not come down out of her bunk bed because the mice were scurrying around her room. I heard them in the night. Almost like Willard but mice, not rats and I didn't have a pet white one.......so I can imagine how horrified it was to read that and imagine it - I lived it and it was not a fun time.
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Somebody said can of worms. I hate those things. I have conquered it enough that I can garden 90% of the time without getting that horrible panic attack and flinging the gloves down and going in the house for awhile. Sometimes I garden without gloves at all!!!
But the worst thing ever happened with one of my cats. This one used to disappear for months at a time then come home to stay again the rest of the year till she got wanderlust again. Well, she must have been eating rodents or something while on the lam and picked up parasites one time. She was in the kitchen one night hacking and choking. I thought it was going to be a hairball and went over to her to wait for her to stop. She threw up and there were these tiny white rings laying there. What are those? I wondered. I just stared at them a few moments until they unwound themselves and started writhing on the rug.
Oh my God, worms!!!! I started screaming at the top of my lungs and jumping up and down uncontrollably. Naturally the cat whooshed under the couch. And I went after her to throw her out of the house. It was very noisy with both of us running around the downstairs, me screaming hysterically, her scratching and scrambling. Then I remembered the worms and had to think of a way to destroy them without touching them. I decided to poison them and grabbed a bottle of ammonia and poured it out all over them until they stopped that horrible writhing. Then I put a bunch of paper towels on them and waited for my husband to come home. I sat on the couch until I stopped panting. Eventually caught the cat and threw her outside until I could get her to the vets for de-worming. Every time she hacked after that for months, out the door she'd go.
My worm phobia started one day when I was walking the block to school in the rain and noticed what seemed like hundreds of them all over the sidewalks in various shapes, sizes, colors, and conditions. It was a true phobia and still is to a certain extent. It started during those stessful grade school years when I was, I now realize, dealing with life by stifling my voice. It seems to have tapped into my tendency toward OCD as well. Have never wanted to de-sensitize myself formally, because, well they are so gross. I preferred to make the accomodations. It is better now, I think, because I'm dealing with my past. Years ago, I wouldn't even have been able to type the word worms or tell this story. I used to have nightmares about them too.
Also, fear of heights. I've mentioned before, all the falls I had as a child, landing on my head, etc. So, that one seems like a wise phobia on some level.
Pennyplant
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Beth:
Wow, I opened another can of worms. How do I always manage to do that?????
I don't think you did! It's not your responsibility what gets said on your thread. No, really, it's not. (((((((Beth))))))
PP close your ears now:
human worms (little ones, of the intestine) aren't very nice either! Wash your fresh fruit carefully guys. Saw a tapeworm get pulled out of the back of a cat once when I was a kid. Those childhood images kinda stay with you. The cat was okay btw, if hungry. Gross i know, but these things are.
Oh! I just remembered. once I really did open a can of worms, literally. I still can't imagine how it happened, or if I magined the stuff was moving, but let's say I didn't look too closely. But how could anything survive the canning process, reproduce, and live? The smell was terrible, it was supposed to be a can of weiners or something similar. I still can't quite believe that and there wasn't anyone around to check what I saw with. <shiver> I'd forgotten that. Odd memories.
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Well, there is a picture making the rounds of the internet. It is a bag of lettuce and sitting happily in the sealed bag is a bright green frog, alive and looking right at you. Somebody bought the lettuce and discovered the little traveler once they got home. Imagine how he enjoyed getting washed and moving down an assembly line, bagged up, thrown into a crate and then for a long truck ride. Maybe he was even from a different country! What a great life for a frog :mrgreen: !
Pennyplant
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Speaking of worms and cans thereof...be sure NOT to try and ship candybars in the mail...I was once "treated" to a bar of worms and chocolate (no I sure did NOT accidentally eat it), from my Aunt in Florida...ugh!
The freakiest things i can remember happening with food though, was a large winged insect right in the middle of my cooked artichoke! My mother had made the choke but apparently didn't wash it good enough or might have thought the insect was part of the green leaves...who knows...you would think it might swear me off artichokes for LIFE! nope...they are one of my FAVORITE veggies, with breadcrumbs, italian dressing, oil and eggs! YUMMY!~
~Laura
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Maybe the large dark fish tank represents the great unknown....we as humans fear the great unknown....
A fish tank represents a fish caught in glass, where those lurking outside can see inside...and the darkness represents the unknown, our fears, the fear that maybe something can snatch you up and gobble you...I know when I swam in a swimming pool late at night, it was dark and I couldnt see the bottom of the pool...and I got too scared to swim in it, knowing that nothing was there, yet fearing that something was.
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Wow, Shewolfe,
You may have hit the nail on the head. As I said, my grandmother was cruel and used to talk to me about death a lot. I feared it terribly for ages (I am better with it now). Also, I have a great fear of the ocean at night (I think of doing a night-dive and get shivers). Interesting thought. I am afraid of what I can't see... part of my needing to Let Go and Let God, I know.
Major gross on the can of worms Portia. Is that possible????? Ugh, I will never be able to open a can again without thinking of that.
One year I was making devilled eggs and opened my dill to add to them and it was infested with tiny bugs. Yuck!
Also, Portia, thanks for reminding me that I am not responsible for others' thoughts. As usual, you pointed out what I needed to see.
Love to all of you,
Beth
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Bleeeeahhhh!
I think if I don't stay off this thread I'll develop a phobia myself!! :lol:
Hops
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Postophobia
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Scared of scary threads :shock:
My real phobia is claustrophobia.
I do prefer to sleep under the stars .
I am not afraid of insects or spiders , mice etc.
When camping once I came too close too a rattlesnake...............
I just stayed calm and walked quietly by ,really I was in the snakes space .....you know.
Was not scared now when I think of it maybe I should have been. :D
moon
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Beth,
What did your grandmother tell you, if you want to talk about it?
My grandmother wasn’t cruel, but she did tell me things that created strong images which stay with me now. The generational gap means that she told me things that I wouldn’t experience in my life (she came from a poor family, 11 kids to a small terraced house). I remember one thing she told me was about her mother having a ‘growth’ on the back of her hand. Her mother took my grandmother with her to the doctor where he cut this thing out. I don’t know how old my grandmother was, but as she described it, it was obvious she must have been very young, the impact it had. She described this black spidery (!) growth coming away from her mother’s hand. I’m sure she saw many things that would have amazed me.
Yah, that can of worms was very strange. I opened it up, expecting to see the pink shiny ends of frankfurters and instead this smell escaped (can’t describe it, it was gruesome) and I looked in to see this murky grey coloured chunky mess…and I’m sure it was moving!! I know it sounds incredible and this was many years ago so I doubt my memory now, but – I know it happened. I just threw the lot in the outside bin and didn’t look at it (the smell was too much too). Maybe the can had a tiny, tiny hole in it and some bacteria got in? Anyway, I’ve opened many cans since and they’ve all been okay! It must be a very rare thing.
Dill bugs: extra protein huh?! I was eating a tomato-based soup once where there were lots of mosquitoes (eating outside). Was wearing that anti-mosquito wipe chemical and the things were buzzing about, coming near my hands and falling gently in to the soup. What can you do when you’re hungry? If you can’t beat ‘em, eat ‘em!
There’s a place in mid Africa near one of the big lakes where each year when the flies hatch from the lake, they catch them in swarms inside big swirling nets (like fishing nets) and they make fly-patties – squash a load of flies together and fry in patties about an inch thick. I quite like that idea! Darn good use for flies and total protein. Yes I would, just to try them! Definitely.
Postophobia :D
Moon, sleeping under the Moon
I just stayed calm and walked quietly by ,really I was in the snakes space .....you know.
Was not scared now when I think of it maybe I should have been.
Nah! If you’d been scared the snake might have got scared too and – oh dear. But if you’re calm and you know you’re in its space…..mutual respect eh? In harmony. 8)
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Well, this is not a phobia but I pulled a slimy bag of lettuce out of my fridge when I was young, ran across the apartment, flew open the sliding glass door, threw the bag over the balcony and then proceeded to throw up off the balcony!
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She threw up and there were these tiny white rings laying there. What are those? I wondered. I just stared at them a few moments until they unwound themselves and started writhing on the rug.
Oh my God, worms!!!! I started screaming at the top of my lungs and jumping up and down uncontrollably. Naturally the cat whooshed under the couch. And I went after her to throw her out of the house. It was very noisy with both of us running around the downstairs, me screaming hysterically, her scratching and scrambling. Then I remembered the worms and had to think of a way to destroy them without touching them. I decided to poison them and grabbed a bottle of ammonia and poured it out all over them until they stopped that horrible writhing. Then I put a bunch of paper towels on them and waited for my husband to come home. I sat on the couch until I stopped panting. Eventually caught the cat and threw her outside until I could get her to the vets for de-worming. Every time she hacked after that for months, out the door she'd go.
:D :D :D :D THank you SO much for the laugh!!!!. I'm a visual person and saw the whole thing as you described it, too funny now, but not when it was happening I'm sure!!!
Well, there is a picture making the rounds of the internet. It is a bag of lettuce and sitting happily in the sealed bag is a bright green frog, alive and looking right at you. Somebody bought the lettuce and discovered the little traveler once they got home. Imagine how he enjoyed getting washed and moving down an assembly line, bagged up, thrown into a crate and then for a long truck ride. Maybe he was even from a different country! What a great life for a frog !
I love frogs, would so not mind finding on in my lettuce bag as long as I saw him before I started eating any of the lettuce!!!
As for phobias, I can't do heights. Used to climb trees all the time as a kid, and then somewhere around the age of 19 I was going hunting with a boyfriend and I got about halfway up the tree to get into the tree stand (deer hunting) and I froze. Thought for sure my legs were gonna buckle, my heart started beating weird, I felt dizzy....I've tried and tried to overcome it since then and can't. :? The only other phobia I don't have a name for, but did you see the movie "Mean Girls"??? Went to school with them and ever since I've been afraid of most other women and social situations were my looks and dress will be measured, such as weddings, church, funerals, graduations, showers. It's a real problem for me. :(
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I'm with you on the heights. Have dreams where I am paralyzed with fear and I cannot move...................it reminds me of when I was a kid and we moved into this house with a catwalk...............you could see off it on both sides and my dog crouched real low and scurried across right in the middle........boy, that was 35 years ago.
Also, can't stand to be in bed and have a kid on one side, a dog on the other and two cats sitting on top of me - under the covers. If I am on top of the covers, ok...........
And the thought of being buried alive. I hate to admit it but I watch soaps at night on Soapnet. I was watching All My Children and Greg Madden was buried alive and taunted for several days and eventually died...............freaky. Also there were a couple of movies called Buried Alive and Buried Alive 2.................Scary. Then I heard that the term "saved by the bell" was coined when in the past they thought people had died so they buried them with a string attached to a bell ABOVE the grave. If the grave keeper heard a bell, he would go out and dig up a person who they thought was dead but came to in the coffin!!
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Adrift, I so understand this. I was very scarred by the cruelty of girls when I was young. What cured me was seeking out women's support groups and women's events. It was amazing.
FIND WOMEN WHO DON'T DO THAT AND YOU'LL LOSE YOUR FEAR OF WOMEN WHO DO! It's only their own fears, their own sense of lack of any meaningful power in life, that makes some women "cut" each other by making those superficial judgments. One cure could be to intentionally dress "against the rules", endure the shocked glances, and find out the sky didn't fall.
(Sorry about the caps, I do get worked up on this issue...it's fear and lack of consciousness that makes some women judge each other that way. But it's not all women, not all occasions.)
Find and befriend your inner rebel, Adrift. She wants out! And she has friends out there!
hugs,
Hops
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Adrift, I so understand this. I was very scarred by the cruelty of girls when I was young. What cured me was seeking out women's support groups and women's events. It was amazing.
FIND WOMEN WHO DON'T DO THAT AND YOU'LL LOSE YOUR FEAR OF WOMEN WHO DO! It's only their own fears, their own sense of lack of any meaningful power in life, that makes some women "cut" each other by making those superficial judgments. One cure could be to intentionally dress "against the rules", endure the shocked glances, and find out the sky didn't fall.
(Sorry about the caps, I do get worked up on this issue...it's fear and lack of consciousness that makes some women judge each other that way. But it's not all women, not all occasions.)
Find and befriend your inner rebel, Adrift. She wants out! And she has friends out there!
hugs,
Hops
Very interesting! PP probably needs to find her rebel too. I'm not sure how to find my rebel self,but if I do I'll let you know. :D
And Kelly, I didn't know that about "saved by the bell". There actually was a lady from my old home town who was almost buried alive many, many years ago. My dad knew the story which was told from his childhood. This lady would have seizures that made her appear to be dead. The coffin was already closed, the funeral had started inside the church and her sister arrived from out of town and begged to see her "dead" sister one last time, so they opened the casket. Theory is that the fresh air swooping in revived her, anyway the "dead" sister sat right up in the casket and the mourners were jumping out of windows and ploughing through the doors. The poor woman lived a miserable life after that because everyone in her circle thought she was a witch or ghost and wouldn't speak to her or come near her. :(
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Geez!!! That's what horror stories are made of. Every time I go to a funeral I have these visions in my mind that the dead's eyes pop open. I ccouldn't make myself touch a dead person until about a year ago when my step-grandfather passed. My daughter touched him so I thought I would touch his hand. He was cold. That is what shocked me - no warmth.
And mean girls? Well, my daughter has to deal with them and even I at work. We have one in particular who always stirs the pot. Lurks in the aisle next to where you are chatting with someone and eaves drops.........so says things in front of a crowd - almost daring you to call her on it. Meanwhile, my other friend runs three miles a day and does bun and thigh exercises. She's over 50 and wears a 2 - I wear a 16. I cannot keep up with that but she cannot NOT. She is obsessed with her looks and she really is pretty. I wish I had it in me so I could beat this self-fulfilling prophecy of fat and ugly....
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My inner rebel--
A little secret I will tell here--
In August I went and got a tattoo! It's of a dragonfly with ribbons and vines and it's on my lower back. I showed everybody at work and made quite a sensation for several days. I might get another one too!
There's hope for me yet!!
Pennyplant
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OOOOh Penny,
I am afraid to get a tattoo... afraid I won't want to stop... I'll end up the tattooed lady if I start, I fear...
Portia thanks :? for elaborating on the can of worms. I feel so queazy just thinking about it.And I don't like bad smells, either...
As for the deal with my grandmother... do you have a few hours??? I will try to condense it...She was an N?/alcoholic (all the way). She talked incessantly of the need to be beautiful and rich.My parents left me with her a lot.She would keep me up until the wee hours of the morning playing cards (at three, four years old... younger even...).Nothing I ever did was right. No matter how thin I got, she would say it was not thin "All dress sizes are different."SHe hated my grandfather (also a messed up guy) and slept with other men and would tell me things like that he forced her to have sex and that is how she got pregnant with my aunt, etc. (when I was 5 or younger... ).She never loved anyone but herself and loved to play little dramas. Their house was large with a parlor and a large oil painting of her looking lovely in the living room.
My mother has "apologized" that I spent time with her as she believes that is why I am so different and became an alcoholic and such.My mother loves to talk about how awful dad's parents are/were (they both do) but you never hear one single word about anything bad with her family. My grandmother, BTW, was also very mean to my mother.
I remember, like I said, that she would say, you know you are going to die. And she would talk about ghosts. And she knew I loved the ocean. So she would tell me that man o' war were everywhere and would get me. Or sharks. Or other poisonous animals.It's hard to remember her now, but I remember that I was in Kindergarten, walking to class and crying because I knew I would die and I didn't know what it would be like not to be here.
Thanks for the listen!! Portia, was that your dad's mom or your mom's?
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Beth,
Your grandmother was a sadistic horrible woman and I hate vehemently dislike her and would probably hate her if I didn't try not to hate due to religious principles!
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Take that, you old child-frightening bat!
Hops
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Beth
Your grandmother reminds me of N/disturbed woman movies, Sunset Boulevard for one. She really was a nasty, bitter grand-dame wasn’t she? Glad you can see it for what it was now (i.e. bullshit!!). I’d like to make a film starting with the scene of this poor little girl sitting playing cards at 3am with her grandmother who is decked out in jewels and rich clothes, the painting of her looming over the card table….and the film would end with the girl who is now a woman selling the painting (she’s a high-flying art dealer) for $1000s to an elderly woman who is exactly the same as the grandmother, and the girl gets her due by taking the cash off this vain old lady, smiling at herself at her circle of recovery and life’s strange way of paying back old abuses. Yeah. I can see it! My grandmother was okay apart from the grisly tales (she was my Dad’s mother). She used to play shop with me and stuff, which my mother never did! My mother’s mother on the other hand was not a nice person. She didn’t like female children, including my mother, which of course explains a lot. All sad stuff.
Hops, I loved Babe! :D
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Wow! We have some crazy s##t in our lives, huh?
Beth, your grandmom was a horrible old woman. Sorry you had to go through that.
Go PP, glad you got a tatoo!!
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Re. tatooed ladies: all for it.
what I'm agin is UGLY tattoos...
My poor dear D decked herself out with some truly Goth and truly unatractive sailor-type tattoos in the middle of her worst year, at 19...
My advice would be go to an art museum and consult books of design...choose your tattoo art (unless you can design it yourself) from a beautiful source. Fewer regrets later, I think.
Hops
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Try the Book of Kells. There are some incredibly beautiful designs in there...
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The two things I am most afraid of are:
(1) losing my animals to an apartment fire while I am at work, and never knowing about it until afterwards
(2) being in an accident or wrongly imprisoned, and having my animals starve to death because nobody cared enough to rescue them while I was unable to get to them.
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The two things I am most afraid of are:
(1) losing my animals to an apartment fire while I am at work, and never knowing about it until afterwards
(2) being in an accident or wrongly imprisoned, and having my animals starve to death because nobody cared enough to rescue them while I was unable to get to them.
So sweet you love your animals. How many animals do you have?? Don't you have someone who would feed them for you if you couldn't get home??? I can understand your fear.
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No, all of my immediate family are dead except the N sibling, from whom I am estranged.
I work with people who think meanness is funny, most of them anyway; the ones who aren't like that would freak out and panic if I ever suggested a key exchange for emergencies, because nobody does such things there.
I have some quite nice neighbors and the apartment staff are wonderful, but I don't think they keep close enough tabs on the residents that they'd notice I was gone until it was too late...
I've had petsitters, but my really good one retired, and I've had such bad experiences with new ones that I don't have one right now. Things like they left water running and flooded the kitchen counters, and so forth. But again, if someone doesn't know I'm not coming home they won't know to save the critters.
This is the only part of living alone that I didn't anticipate - otherwise I love it, the peace and the solitude and the freedom from abuse is as fresh and relaxing and soothing and satisfying today as it was on my first day of escape, all those years ago.
thanks adrift, I really appreciate your kindness. I have two animals... two dearly loved cats. :-) But I've had just about everything you can imagine as a pet - mice, rats, turtles, fish, an albino toad, garter snakes, and I used to do baby wild animal rescue and fostering [birds, squirrels, raccoons, possums] until it became illegal for laypeople to do it.
Only thing I wouldn't ever have as a pet is a reptile that eats live mammals. I have a thing about mammals vs. reptiles - I'll feed a snake to a mouse, if I have to, but I won't feed a mouse to a snake. I'm closer kin to the mouse, and I feel it in my bones. Weird, I know. :roll:
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My tattoo is very pretty. Blue, purple and green. If I get another one it will have to "go with" the first one. It will be something from nature or a celtic design.
Getting the tattoo was one of the very things I have ever done where I was completely present in the moment. Well, eighty minutes to be exact. A surprisingly good experience all around. Now I understand better why my son enjoys it so much. But I had to come around to that on my own. Previously I did not understand his fascination with tattooing at all. I didn't do it for that reason. That was sort of a by-product. A good one.
Pennyplant
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Stormy,
There has just got to be a solution for what to do with your cats if something should happen. What about any animal loving or animal rescuing groups in your area? Have they ever run up against this situation with any of their members or have they heard of any solutions, since they would probably love animals as much as you do and may spend much of their lives with animals? I don't mean PETA. Around here we have several animal rescue groups (made up of people, not the government) and humane societies where regular people devote much of their lives to pets. Sort of a network of people who care about the same thing. I just wonder if some group like that exists in your area and whether some of the members have ideas about helping single people with animals. It must come up frequently.
Some communities have window stickers to let the fire dept. know there are children in the house. Does anyplace have such stickers for pets? That could help in some emergencies.
Maybe you've already come up with these ideas. These are the things that popped into my mind since your fear seems like a reasonable one that should have a solution. Maybe others will have additional ideas for you.
Pennyplant
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Storm,
Is there anyone you are close to that you could say, Can I call you twice weekly just to let you know all is ok, and if you don't hear from me check on my cats?That way if it were a case of something happening to you, cats can be OK for a few days. As for the worry about fire... are you in an apt bld? I think this is a fear about loss of control more than anything. Unless you think there is a reason the building would catch on fire, you are fearing something very beyond your control and very unlikely to happen.
Portia, I LOVE your idea for the movie (you are so sweet and that was the cutest idea). Sometimes I excuse my father's behavior so much more because I know he lived with that every day of his childhood. And with my grandfather who loved no one as well.
Hops, I hated her for so long. I used to say to her, "There are you happy, I am a drunk like you." I felt like she was looking at me from wherever she was and laughing that she had managed to destroy me.I know she was miserable and I should feel pity. But how can you feel pity for someone who destroys those around her?
Love to all of you.
Beth
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Yikes!
After reading this whole thread at once, my skin is crawling and I fear I may throw up!
My phobia is germs. I am revolted by body fluids, I faint at the sight of blood, I feel nauseous if I see anyone spit on the street. For some reason I can examine my child's bowel movement with interest, but God forbid a dog should lick my cheek! I relive and relive a joke about a cuspidor that I heard as a child, shuddering every time. I don't think I will ever have sex again because I've had too much time to learn about STDs, and now, I can't even go into a public jacuzzi! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I sometimes lie awake thinking, what if I have parasites. I wonder how much turpentine I can swallow (that kills parasites, right?) without killing myself. I can stick my hands into dirt including worms and bugs, no problem. I can pet a snake, or any animal, as long as I have the hand sanitizer to hand. I guess I am just crazy! Plus, the claustrophobia! I sleep all winter with windows open so I don't rebreathe any air, and cannot wear socks, because my toes would not be free. Hey this thread is really up my alley! Or should I be on the totally bonkers thread?
Plucky
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Beth, thank you for starting this thread. Writing down a few of my many phobias is strangely freeing. However, reading it over, I am beginning to feel that I am a bit barmy. Tattoos? Whaaat! And share needles with the general public???!!! Sausages? What is actually in there? Ride public transport and touch a pole that has been touched by many others? Are you mad?!!!???? I will have to think about this. Maybe my phobias are limiting. (Is that a 'duh' statement?)
Plucky
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I have seen a television show named "Monk" and I enjoy it because it is about a detective who is worse than I am. So much worse. I just feel so normal compared to him. Am I going on and on?
Plucky
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Plucky,
I have become a huge hand washer. I must wash my hands a hundred times a day.I am sure it is somewhat compulsive. If it makes you feel better, I have lived in some very dirty places... and travelled to some very dirty places. I drank water there... I did get a stomach illness once... but that's been it. Again, I think it's that loss of control thing. What if you are the person (or your kids or cats, etc) who eats the tainted spinach? But you can't worry about it too much or you will sink into it too far I think. I do start to do that and I have to stop... with a lot of things beyond my control (OOOhhh another phobia... flying...).
Love, Beth
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Meant to say, PP, that I am certain your tattoo is gorgeous! And I'd love to see it!
I have had serious thoughts of getting a small sunflower tattoo to help heal the prior discord between my daughter and me, but I blew it by telling her about what I wanted to do and why during the time she was raging at me when we were on vacation...and she was loathing everything I said and did at that moment so she turned it into a horrible idea somehow....likely because I was horrible in her mind just then.
I'm sorry, because I do love the idea. A sunflower to represent her because we grew them, her Dad and I, and I have many photos of her near them...my favorite is so amazing. She has a totally delighted-with-herself huge funny grin on her face, and a big sunflower is bowing down toward her just like a friendly big mammal. And it even has a happy drunk bee in its center. It's an amazing pic, I have had a few large versions made...one for her and one for me.
Maybe I could ask her again about going with me to a tattoo establishment? Or do y'all think it's a dead subject and I should not mention it again?
Hops
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The sunflower AND the symbolism are sweet. For you. But I am not sure that she will share your joy. Will you forgive me if I say that is being too chummy? She needs guidance and love, but not a "friend" in her mom.
If you get the tattoo, will you put a picture of it on here? I never thought of getting a pretty flower like that (a hibiscus?)
Love, Beth
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Thanks, Beth. I'm serious about wanting people's opinion and I see your point. Thank you for it!
I will listen carefully...I think you make sense about being chummy, but on the other hand it would be for me, too, a statement to myself about my love for her...
But maybe you have put your finger on why it backfired. Anybody else?
And not quite on point, but here it is almost 3 a.m. and Donald Rumsfeld is speaking to me on CNN...I am in an alternate cold-induced universe...
Hops
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Dear Hops, you asked.
Please tell me Hops, how exactly is you getting a tattoo going to help heal any discord? What has a tattoo on your body got to do with the feelings and thoughts of another person?
What would she get out of going with you for you to get a tattoo? What’s in it for her, apart from a boring wait while you get done?
Yes it would be a statement to yourself about your love for her. That’s all it would be.
Hops, if your mother had suggested the same thing to you when you were 25, to heal the stuff between you, what would your reaction have been? Seriously?
Plucky,
I apply your kind of cleanliness to only certain areas and they have to be spotless. The rest I try not to touch too often! How lazy is that? Practical I think!
Re-breathing air. I bet you don’t take plane flights? They’re disgusting. Re-breathing other people’s breath and germs. I get sore throats and colds after flights. I had the idea of producing small canisters of compressed ‘fresh air’ I could sell so that people could breathe their own personal air on flights. But then we had terrorism and that idea gets junked. But really, I know what you mean, somewhat. I think good air will become something we fight over in years to come.
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Storm
I have a thing about mammals vs. reptiles - I'll feed a snake to a mouse, if I have to, but I won't feed a mouse to a snake. I'm closer kin to the mouse, and I feel it in my bones. Weird, I know.
Not weird at all! To have a lower species eat a higher species seems to go against nature, evolution. To have a repetition-compulsion-brained snake eat a clever limbicly-equipped mouse goes against our feelings of superiority. If a snake can do that to a mouse, what hope for humans? This is one of those disgust fears that so many sci-fi ideas feed off, where the aliens are insect-like or unfeeling lizard creatures. Aliens usually are ‘unfeeling’, without emotional brains. Not weird at all Storm, a very human reaction.
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Meant to say, PP, that I am certain your tattoo is gorgeous! And I'd love to see it!
I have had serious thoughts of getting a small sunflower tattoo to help heal the prior discord between my daughter and me, but I blew it by telling her about what I wanted to do and why during the time she was raging at me when we were on vacation...and she was loathing everything I said and did at that moment so she turned it into a horrible idea somehow....likely because I was horrible in her mind just then.
I'm sorry, because I do love the idea. A sunflower to represent her because we grew them, her Dad and I, and I have many photos of her near them...my favorite is so amazing. She has a totally delighted-with-herself huge funny grin on her face, and a big sunflower is bowing down toward her just like a friendly big mammal. And it even has a happy drunk bee in its center. It's an amazing pic, I have had a few large versions made...one for her and one for me.
Maybe I could ask her again about going with me to a tattoo establishment? Or do y'all think it's a dead subject and I should not mention it again?
Hops
Hops, I think instead of doing the things you want to do to reach out to your daughter, she needs you to do the thing you are resisting doing.
There is a reason, which only you know and only you need to know, why you don't want to explore this topic along certain lines.
I'm trying to be nice about this and not overstep.
But you aren't going to get a shortcut on this for the simple reason that THERE ISN'T ONE.
You don't get over alcoholism by reading books and going to meetings, you get over it by stopping drinking. The books and meetings help.
You don't get over past abuse by telling yourself they really loved you. You get over it by admitting it was abuse, admitting it was damaging, feeling everything that's appropriate to feel about that, and striving to reach the point where you can genuinely release the situation and the people involved because you have genuinely dealt with them, and it, and you are healed.
Your daughter knows BS when she hears it. She knows avoidance when she sees it. She will also recognize guts and moral courage when she sees them. You are amply supplied with both guts and moral courage. Use them here.
Getting a tattoo isn't going to make up for something you did that you should not have done, or something you didn't do that you should have done, someone you should have protected her from and didn't, someone you should have encouraged her to be closer to and didn't; the only thing that will make up for that - for whatever it is - I'm not asking, this is a generic list - is
admitting it
letting her tell you how she feels about it and not interrupting her, not minimizing her, not invalidating her, just hearing her
accepting what she says and not making excuses for yourself [take her at her word. let her have a voice.]
accepting what happened and what has resulted from it
asking forgiveness
and meaning it
and trying your best - a real best, for her; not a rhetorical best, for strangers on a message board - not to do it again. Whatever it is or was.
This, trust me, will work. But you can also take my word for it: nothing short of this ever will.
And I know this is hard to believe, but I really am on your side here. I'm on your daughter's side too. I don't think they have to be opposite sides.
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Storm
I have a thing about mammals vs. reptiles - I'll feed a snake to a mouse, if I have to, but I won't feed a mouse to a snake. I'm closer kin to the mouse, and I feel it in my bones. Weird, I know.
Not weird at all! To have a lower species eat a higher species seems to go against nature, evolution. To have a repetition-compulsion-brained snake eat a clever limbicly-equipped mouse goes against our feelings of superiority. If a snake can do that to a mouse, what hope for humans? This is one of those disgust fears that so many sci-fi ideas feed off, where the aliens are insect-like or unfeeling lizard creatures. Aliens usually are ‘unfeeling’, without emotional brains. Not weird at all Storm, a very human reaction.
Thanks P. I tend to think so too, and that leaves me feeling very uncomfortable around people who think it's cool to feed their snakes live mice and bunnies... And I'm comfortable with that discomfort. I just wish I could find a way to save the bunnies and the mice.
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Storm
I don't think you overstepped. I hesitated on all the 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts' because well, it's too late and what were mistakes, were mistakes (like you, I'm talking generically here, could be about anyone).
We all make mistakes, or act in ways that are less than perfect, I don't think there are shoulds as such, unless it was a perfect world and we were perfect in it. I agree with you: recognising, admitting, taking real responsibility for our actions, hoping for understanding and forgiveness (but not expecting it either) - all good solid stuff.
I wish this had happened to us Storm, with our mothers. How much do you wish it?
Just seen your next post and yes, I'm not comfortable with it. I accept that snakes eat what they eat but i don't think somehow i want to be involved with it. I accept that domestic cats catch, play with and kill small furry things and I don't blame the cats. I also eat cow and imagine that the cows wouldn't exist if we didn't eat them.
I don't really want to save the bunnies and mice (they're probably bred to be food so they wouldn't have a life otherwise) but it's the human involvement in, well, sort of aiding and abetting the snake - the lower species - at the expense of the higher species, that bothers me. Do these humans feel closer to the snakes than to animals that are biologically closer to them? And if so, what does that say (about the humans)? All this stuff occupies me from time to time.
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Meant to say, PP, that I am certain your tattoo is gorgeous! And I'd love to see it!
I have had serious thoughts of getting a small sunflower tattoo to help heal the prior discord between my daughter and me, but I blew it by telling her about what I wanted to do and why during the time she was raging at me when we were on vacation...and she was loathing everything I said and did at that moment so she turned it into a horrible idea somehow....likely because I was horrible in her mind just then.
I'm sorry, because I do love the idea. A sunflower to represent her because we grew them, her Dad and I, and I have many photos of her near them...my favorite is so amazing. She has a totally delighted-with-herself huge funny grin on her face, and a big sunflower is bowing down toward her just like a friendly big mammal. And it even has a happy drunk bee in its center. It's an amazing pic, I have had a few large versions made...one for her and one for me.
Maybe I could ask her again about going with me to a tattoo establishment? Or do y'all think it's a dead subject and I should not mention it again?
Hops
I think a tattoo is something you should only do for yourself. I like having one and I liked getting one. And I'm so surprised that I would ever like or do something like that. I only started looking at designs because my husband has wanted to get one for years and couldn't decide. So, I would look at them with him. This summer I looked at them for several weeks and kept going back to the same one. Once I picked a dragonfly design, I looked up dragonfly to see if it had any "meaning". It does. One of the things it symbolizes is transformation. Well, that just has to be the theme of my entire life, both for good and for bad. So, it was a keeper.
I went by myself to get it and didn't tell anybody that would be the day. The whole process was good and also somewhat transforming in and of itself. It didn't necessarily do anything active for my relationship with my ultra-tattooed son. But it did give me a window into his world. Which is very cool. I have always been very resistant to really seeing into his world in an authentic way. A symptom of my deep insecurity and very mushy sense of self. I'm kind of hopeful that my real self is firming up a bit now. Not as a result of getting the tattoo. The tattoo is the result of beginning to firm up. If that makes any sense.
And I still have years of work ahead of me in understanding my son. I feel confident we have a bond. Which I wasn't always confident of. But accepting him as a person and not losing myself in the process, that's a long term effort. It shouldn't even be about me. I should already exist and not be worrying about me. I should have been discovering him and accepting him from day one. So, there it is. Better late than never I suppose.
Pennyplant
added on edit: I tried a fake tattoo first and liked how "ink" looked on my skin, so I figured a real one would look okay too.
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PP - transforming:
Can rewrite you please?
It shouldn't even be about me. I should already exist and not be worrying about me. I should have been discovering him and accepting him from day one.
In a perfect world, it wouldn’t even be about me, but well, that’s how it is. If things had been different, I probably would have had a stronger sense of ‘me’ and wouldn’t be worrying about it, but the great thing is, I am aware of needing to be me and that’s wonderful.
In a parallel life there’s a me that has been discovering and accepting my son since day one: and maybe in another parallel life there’s another me that went a different route and is now totally estranged from him. I’m glad I’m where I am now and have the opportunity to get to understand him, glad I’m on the journey! :D
Hope you don’t mind a bit of word-transforming…? :?
Cool tattoo story. I might have one when I'm old enough. About age 60 I reckon. I might be loosened up enough by then (mentally, not physically..altho physically I will be no doubt...)
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Portia and Storm,
I feel very much the opposite about the snake and mouse thing. If we're talking bunnies, then I feel differently, but mice can be eaten by anything and I'm OK with that. I would feel the same about rats, even more so.
Portia, I'm not so sure that mice would be higher on the species intelligence chart than snakes. I don't honestly know. Reptiles can be trained to a degree, I think. I've never owned one, but I had a boyfriend in college with a boa constrictor and I used to love to have it crawl up my arm and wrap itself around me. I have no fear at all where snakes are concerned.
P, you were also talking about the air quality in airplanes. I just heard a story on the news about that recently. They have air exchangers on airplanes that redistribute the air every 1/2 hour or so. When tested, the air quality on a plane was much better than in an office building, where they have no air exchangers and windows are rarely opened.
Hops,
Regarding the tattoo--I agree with Beth that getting a tattoo to form a connection with your daughter is not really a good reason, or one she would be in favor of. If you want to do it for you, then by all means get some ink, but she should not be the reason.
I say now that I would never get a tattoo, but then I'm sure at some point I also said that I would never don leathers and ride a Harley and we know how that turned out. So, never say never--but I don't even have a second set of ear piercings yet, so I've got some room to grow :shock:
Happy Friday,
Brigid
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Hi Portia,
I don't mind the word-transforming, parallel universes/journeys. It gives me something new to think about, maybe some objectivity.
When I look back on my life since age 18, I have a lot of regrets and would do it very differently if I could do it over again. From where I'm at today, I believe that my kids are the best part of my life, my best contribution to the world. Eighteen-year-old me didn't know that, wouldn't have even valued that idea. So, I didn't do such a good job. It's hard to find the positive in that. He says, it's cool that we grew up together and that he wasn't so easy to raise. But he was the kid. That was his perogative. I was a kid too but that wasn't his fault. That's just a real hard chapter for me. Lots to work on.
You're right, though. It could have gone way worse than it did. And I'm glad that didn't happen. I think he is satisfied with who he is. If he is not, well that is his journey, not mine. I have to let him have his journey just like I have mine.
Pennyplant
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I have become a huge hand washer. I must wash my hands a hundred times a day.
Ah Hah! I only wash my hands 25 times per day! I'm so normal, I'm so normal.....
Again, I think it's that loss of control thing.
Well, yes. I kind of knew that. I guess I'll have to contront it now.....Jeepers, can't get anything past you lot!
What if you are the person (or your kids or cats, etc) who eats the tainted spinach?
I thought that was kind of silly. You could just cook the spinach, right? Meanwhile, e coli in beef [products occurs, and we (I mean they) are just told to cook it well done. ?????
Plucky
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Oh - I am sorry, Pennyplant and Beth, I saw your posts but they didn't 'register' till now for some reason.
I do have the 'rescue us' sticker, and my landlord knows I have two cats. One of my neighbors had a freak accident damage her apartment, and the landlord knew she was away and the first thing they did was look for her Westie... believe it or not she had had a premonition of some kind and thank God she had taken him to her folks' house for the day... so I think they'd try to help my animals in a similar situation. Our fire and rescue folks have terrific response time too...
I used to have a 'critter buddy', Beth, but the friendship withered, they basically only got in touch with me when they wanted something, and they had plenty of time to travel four and five hours to visit other friends, often and often, but never time to travel half an hour to see me. I got tired of doing all the work to maintain the friendship, and let it go.
Older you get, harder it is to make new friends.
I've tried animal shelters and rescue places - I used to spend TG and XMS volunteering at some of them - but would you believe, honest to God, I ran into such extreme prejudice against CHRISTIANS that I felt utterly unwelcome! And this was with me never saying a word about my beliefs one way or another - just all this Christian-bashing going on, the entire day, all around me, as I was taking care of critters and filling in wherever people needed me. Totally bizarre. Apparently the notion that one can be a follower of Christ and love animals too has lost a lot of traction. Nobody at these places had ever heard of St. Francis of Assisi, or St. Brendan, or St. Patrick either, I guess.
Anyway, I think I'm in the wrong place, geographically, for a lot of reasons. That's a small sample right there. And I guess, for now, I just will have to trust in God that my critters will be safe, and so will I, for as long as it takes to figure out how and when to get us all to someplace better than where we are now.
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Thanks much for the thoughts, all.
Stormy, if you're referring to the PM you wrote to me, as you recall I did not read it all because I was in a peak stress period and felt it was wiser not to focus on dire imaginings about what might be in my D's pysche. I did read enough to see your assumption is that she had been through a sexual abuse trauma. I do not know whether that happened to my D or not and don't know how you could, honestly. I have no evidence of it, though I now know of a few times my exH2 showed off "playfully" to her in a way she found exhibitionistic and disturbing (and which she recently described to me. I responded, That a**hole! And I believe she felt validated. I don't know why she didn't tell me at the time, but she may have been protecting me. I am very glad she's done so now.) As to apologizing to her for my bad judgment in marrying him, and owning the ways in which I let her down...I have done so. And she has forgiven me. Our dialogue's not over, though I had feared it was.
She just called tonight and asked me to plan a visit there, so we're moving past the recent rough spot. She hasn't set up T appts for us, or followed up on that idea, but she knows I'm absolutely willing to participate if she wants to begin that process. First, we have to get her moved into her new little apt. She is very excited about it, it's a positive change. Another thing that's happening is I am doing much better at listening to her, and transmit less of my own anxiety. I've made my life better and calmer with some recent decisions, and she's trying to do the same in her own life.
Thank you for caring about her, Storm, and me...I believe you do!
Portia and Brigid, of course. You're right. It's silly to think of a tattoo as a healing ritual between two people, except I did. That would depend on her liking the idea though. Well, given her response at that time, and your advice now, I won't be doing one, unless I get very clear I'm doing it for myself.
PP, thanks, this is me too: I still have years of work ahead of me in understanding my son. I feel confident we have a bond. Which I wasn't always confident of. But accepting him as a person and not losing myself in the process, that's a long term effort. It shouldn't even be about me. I should already exist and not be worrying about me. I should have been discovering him and accepting him from day one. So, there it is. Better late than never
How did your son respond to you getting a tattoo? (I know you didn't bring it up to him in the way I foolishly did to my D. If I'd wanted to, I should have just shown her afterward.)
Doesn't matter. I haven't met a perfect mother yet.
love to all and me included,
Hops
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I do have the 'rescue us' sticker, and my landlord knows I have two cats. One of my neighbors had a freak accident damage her apartment, and the landlord knew she was away and the first thing they did was look for her Westie... believe it or not she had had a premonition of some kind and thank God she had taken him to her folks' house for the day... so I think they'd try to help my animals in a similar situation. Our fire and rescue folks have terrific response time too...
Older you get, harder it is to make new friends.
Anyway, I think I'm in the wrong place, geographically, for a lot of reasons.
Storm, you've got it covered as best you can and I honestly believe it will be okay for you guys. I do get what you're saying about the difficulty of making new friends at this stage of the game. I have learned that one over and over again. I don't even try any more. I've got enough to do with firming up my insides. Growing a bigger social circle will have to wait.
And for geography, I highly recommend not moving to upstate New York :shock: . Not that you were thinking of that!!! I'm sure no one does! This is a place people leave, for many reasons, including all the ones you have had to live with in your area. I think we will just decide to move further out in the country and make our own little refuge in the woods. I've spent so much energy worrying about how hard it is here, even though we're from here, that I just can't worry about it any more. Time to go with the flow and see what develops from that.
I'm amazed at where this phobias thread has led. I'm convinced my phobias have grown out of the real life stressers that have been so hard to conquer. I think they are related to control issues too. I always thought my fears and phobias sprang up out of nowhere or were due to my weaknesses. But that just ain't so!
Pennyplant
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PP:
Do you mean economically? I am sorry to hear this, I didn't know:
I've spent so much energy worrying about how hard it is here, even though we're from here
Are you and your H thinking of moving to another area for jobs?
Hops
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Hi Hops
this all sounds good :-). One quick clarification - I don't think it's sexual abuse.
If you really want to know... I think, and I could be SO wrong about this, that there were times when she was little that she was picked on, or mistreated, by various people - family, classmates, teachers - and came to you for support, but instead of believing her, you tended to take their side.
I have a reason for thinking that, which is that I've seen it happen here. Telling Sallying Forth that her tone of voice might have caused the doctor to act like a total jerk, for instance. I know you thought better of that and retracted it - I know - the point is that it was the instant response, and this is not the only time it's happened. If your instant response is usually to defend the abuser rather than to support the abused, your daughter might have had multiple incidents like that.
Kids get angry when their parents won't stand up for them and they know they [the kids] are in the right and deserving of support. Shoot, adults get angry in those circumstances. How could kids not?
But I don't know. I'm guessing. That's all. And I am now going to retract my overly long nose, and let your business be your business. Just wanted to let you know - I don't think it was sexual abuse; I thought it was more likely to be a generic lack of support when the chips were down. And I'm just guessing. And beyond this point, it's none of my business, so beyond this point I will not go.
And I am still on your side. Both your sides. I'd love to see this worked out and through... it'd give hope and light to everyone here, for sure.
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How did your son respond to you getting a tattoo? (I know you didn't bring it up to him in the way I foolishly did to my D. If I'd wanted to, I should have just shown her afterward.)
He knew my husband wanted one a long time ago and even drew a sketch of one of my husband's ideas. He has told us about his tattoos and explained his philosophy about it over the years. I was the hold-out up until this summer but I didn't really talk it over with him. We don't really talk that often! Plus, I was thinking about it a lot. And didn't want to put him on the spot. He actually is learning how to tattoo as a side-line and I didn't want him to feel pressure that I wanted him to do mine. So, after I got it, I did write him a letter, since we were planning to come visit him soon, and shared it as part of my general news about us. I think I mentioned what it was and described the shop and the artist, whose mother, it turned out, I used to work with many years ago!
He doesn't answer letters or email so I had to wait to get his feedback. My tattoo does have some minor flaws in it so I asked him what might have caused those and he explained the tattooing and healing process. That was on the phone. In person, we talked some more and then when I got a chance I showed it to him. He said it was nice. He's so held in sometimes. Oftentimes. The thing he responded to was when I said I had enjoyed the actual process and that was the best part of it and I would always remember it. And I liked the idea of always having the tattoo with me. He knew exactly what I meant and I got the feeling he thought it was a very nice thing that I had understood that part of it. He also shared a book of his so his father might have an easier time picking what he wants.
It was just a pretty natural conversation and that was nice. It is hard for me, still, to relax with him. We have such a history of tense conversations, arguments, and power struggles. I'm still teaching myself to just be a regular person around him and let him be himself without worrying to myself that maybe he hates me or something along those lines. It was very nice to have something genuine in common with each other. I feel like we have made some progress with each other. I've changed inside since the last time we saw him (18 months ago!) and I think that really helped.
Next questions:
My husband and I are very lucky, we each have good paying jobs (it wasn't always that way, though). So, if we moved, it would be within our county so we could keep those jobs. I'm actually looking for more privacy and peacefulness. That's what I would be looking for in a new home.
This area is depressed in many ways, along with economically. A few weeks ago, one of the candidates for governor referred to our region as being like Appalachia and people were hugely offended!! But he was right, both factually and philosophically. The southern tier part of upstate NY is actually the northernmost part of the Appalachian region. This part of NY is part of the rust belt, too, which hasn't been well in decades. (The town I'm from is actually taught about in Architecture schools as being an example of just how badly Urban Renewal can go.) I always tell people, if they want to know about the mentality around here, to go and rent "Buffalo 66", an independent film, and watch it a couple of times. It is a perfect portrait of voicelessness and it is exactly what many people here are really like. Sure, plenty of people are happy enough here, or think they are. But we've lived other places, and it's very different in those places. The people here who think they are happy--they just don't know any better, in my opinion.
I can definitely see where Stormy is coming from with her opinion of her geographical location. Each place that we have lived actually has its own personality. I find this place where we live to be somewhat oppressive in my experience.
Well, here I am posting until bedtime again.
Good night, all!
Pennyplant
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Storm,
Whew. I'm glad you wrote this. I had never understood what you seemed to be assuming about me.
I am glad to tell you that you are reading me quite wrong, misstakes and missteps here are not evidence of me being a bad mother. I am glad to be able to point out that one really can't sum up another person's character or parenting so easily.
I have been a fierce advocate for my child when she was experiencing bullying. She would tell you the same, because I see red. I could not protect her from the whole cycle of "unpopularity" -- nor can any parent, perfecly -- but when I was aware, I was in there! One notable example was in her 3rd grade when another child kept pinching, poking, yanking her hair, tripping and tormenting her. I believed her completely and I acted. I asked the teacher for help, they gave me platitudes. After a day or two when the situation wasn't resolved, I asked the teachers if I could meet with the other child's parents, and they went on alert, nooo, nooo, let US handle this. Another day or two, same story. I went to the school, spotted the bully in the call, sweetly called her aside and told her:
I don't care if you don't like my daughter. You do not have to be friends with her. But I do not want you ever again to pinch, push, trip or hurt her in any way. If you don't like her, stay away from her. But if I hear one more time that you have done this, I am going to call your mother and you will be in big trouble. Do you understand me? She nodded like crazy and a few days later I went to pick up my D and the former bully was hugging her and invited her over several times to play.
My D did not complain often, did not tell me of every instance when she was sad or hurt. I felt her pain, socially (as I'd been through the same thing), and did all I could to arrange play dates and support her in making friendships. She wound up having friends in her life much, much sooner than I had. By middle school she'd found herself, and she had very nice friends in high school and college. She found the first group friendship in UU youth group, and talks fondly of it today.
I shouldn't take what you've assumed personally, Stormy, and I won't. Perhaps my anguish and guilt over the rage she vented that I recently posted about has caused you to want to pin the blame for my daughter's difficulties somewhere, perhaps on me.
I'm sure much of it does belong squarely in my lap. I have never had a problem acknowledging that. What else do we write about here but how our parents affected us...of course we affect our children.
But I'd like to share with you a bit from a letter she sent me just a year ago:
"Mom, please don't ever feel responsible for all my troubles. There are several things I have brought on myself. And the two of us are not the same person (I know!). I have been finding myself, since Dad died, growing more and more like him. All of the sides of me that represent Dad have been amplified lately. His lonely side is one. .... I miss you Mom, and I know we will still have some great times together. You have some grandkids here (the pets). I'm also glad to be your daughter."
Nothing's perfect, including my mothering...and I'm sure I sounded like a wreck when I expressed my feelings of guilt and anguish over her suffering and rage a month or so back. But it wouldn't be fair to me to conclude --even though I felt guilty -- that I have not been a loving, supportive mother to her. I'm on her side in life and always have been. Mistakes and all, she knows that.
Thanks,
Hops
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If your instant response is usually to defend the abuser rather than to support the abused
Stormy. You're way off.
"Usually" is not fair to me. And this image of me is not true.
Hops
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Thanks for the insights into your past advocacy for your D, Hops. She's lucky to have had you in her corner in those instances.
WRT abuser-defending, aka enabling, I'll take another look at things here that led to this conjecture. I've expressed concern about this before, and I'd be glad to be wrong.
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Stormy,
Thanks for wanting to teach me about myself, but I would prefer you not dig up old posts where I've been out of step or unsupportive to anyone. Anyone who had an issue with me has the same access, and so far, nobody has asked me to talk about unfinished business withthem. I'm not on trial, hon. If I've ebbed and flowed in my awareness or helpfulness to people, here as in life, that's okay. I feel generally accepted, forgiven, and loved here. And I am so grateful for it.
If I have been unsupportive to you, for yourself, though, please do tell me. I'll gladly apologize. I am sure I may have done that in some way. I do make mistakes!
It's okay for me to make mistakes or have blind spots, Storm. I'm a good person, and I have deep good intentions toward everyone on this board. You included!
I'd be grateful if you'd make that your main assumption about me, if you can, going forward.
Thanks for wanting to be helpful, as I know you do, Storm.
Hops
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Not to worry, Hops. I was going to go back and look at things only for my own edification, to see if I had misconstrued things, and if there might be a pattern to my own perception in that way. Nothing to be brought forward, except me being wrong and apologizing, if and as appropriate.
No, you aren't on trial, and you haven't been. Relax, and try to have a bit more faith in MY good intentions.
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Thanks, Stormy, and you've got it!
(((Stormy))))
Hops
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Hi Guys , I am bipolar and we as a group can have addictions sexual ,gambling,mood swings( if not taking meds thats my experience) drinking etc.
Well I have been blessed I have a good marriage I have never been interested in gambling or drinking .
I do not know how this will come across but here goes I can not handle money.I have bought stuff I have not needed in hyper manic states.
And in my marriage have broken trust with Mr moon about spending money.
I have been on meds for four years and in that time I have rebuilt the trust once broken.
And it was hard to understand this thing I once could not control.
And Mr moon deserves the truth and so do I that truth came when I was diagnosed with bipolar and all though that was hard to hear
it opened the door to my hearts healing which I work on every day .
He understands and so do I this has been most painful as I try to have some sense of self esteem.
I now do not find myself in hyper manic states and have not for four years . It has been HARD for me to step out of that state of being and it is because of the medicine
and my doctor also getting the support here.
For so many years I was lost a slave to the tightrope walking of bipolar.The medicine and my T and the support here have helped a lot.
I have much guilt and shame connected to being bipolar and the way it manifested .
I am in a better state of being than ever and am so glad I am not experiencing life being self destructive in this way.Also I am gratefull I only had one of these types
of self destructive behaviors .
Never did I think I could be where I am now .......
What I fear is some how "falling off the wagon"
Losing trust in oneself hurts and that would hurt my dear ones as well This is what is hard knowing I have hurt the ones I love so much.
Also I am very scared to post this but here goes...........................
A really real moon
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Awws, Moon. You're not alone. So many people with bipolar disorder have found that spending sprees were a part of the illness. Thank you for sharing this here.
Are you saying you are fearing that urge right now? Or just sharing another layer of yourself?
Either way, dear, you are a shining, honest Moon.
There is nothing to be ashamed about. That was illness behavior.
Bless you and Mr. Moon too. And if you need help right now, just say.
(((((((((Moon))))))))))
Hops
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Hi Brigid
re the mouse being higher on the species list for me, I rate that simply because it has a limbic brain and the snake does not (interesting brain info here which cites snakes and mice http://www.psycheducation.org/emotion/triune%20brain.htm ). As for what that might mean….? I was thinking in terms of relationships with animals and how we interact with them – and them with us. There is something deeply odd (feels ‘against nature’ but that’s a fuzzy meaningless thing to say!) to me about choosing a reptile over an animal with an emotional brain
Thanks for the air quality info. Yes I’ve worked in what I’d call sick buildings and the effects are similar for me to being on a plane! Everybody else's viruses (viri?) within days. But why do I nearly always get a sore throat/sniffle after a flight? Maybe it’s the pressure on the ear/nose/throat areas? I don’t know.
Hi PP
I didn’t mean to be objective (how impossible is that, here?), just to take away any guilt or negative emotion associated with the ‘should have dones’. Letting it go and making the best of now, kind of thing.
So, I didn't do such a good job. It's hard to find the positive in that.
As you said, you were a kid yourself and although that wasn’t his fault, it wasn’t yours either you know? You did the best job that you could probably have done at that time and now you have the opportunity to know that, reflect on who you were then, let yourself accept that and move on today? I hope so, I think so, from all that you’ve said.
Hi Hops
a tattoo as a healing ritual between two people
It’s a bit way-out for me Hops, to be very honest, even between two love partners. For a mother and daughter, it says too much closeness to me (engulfment), but then I’m somewhat avoidant so I’d be running a mile. I don’t know, I’m thinking of sailors with hearts and ‘Mum’ or their girlfriend’s names tattooed on their arms, but then they were away at sea and maybe it was a symbol of their heterosexuality?? Overall the idea feels too intimate to me and is not about the relationship itself, but that’s me.
Re the sunflower, remembering the past with affection is fine but it would be romanticising and elevating one moment to unrealistic levels (for me, obviously). I have a problem with photographs too, with what they appear to represent and how they lie, or how they can allow us to lie to each other and ourselves. I have no photographs of people I know on view! But then I’m an intro, so….
I admit it if it’s not obvious, I cannot respond objectively to a mother-daughter question like yours Hops without some modicum of projection and also wanting to put your relationship right in terms of how I feel my relationship with my mother could have been ‘put right’, but I’m sure that’s very clear to you.
(((((((((((Moon))))))))))))
recognising and accepting and facing your fears? Isn’t that a long way from falling off the wagon? I think so. Have no fear here, you are loved Moon 8).
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Yup, Portia. I am convinced. As I was too enmeshed with my D in her younger days. Point well taken.
Among my D's tattoos are one for each of her parents. She had an eagle with 2 roses and a banner clenched in its talons tatooed on the inside of her upper right arm. On the banner, it says Father, and she told me, I miss him, and now I can hug him whenever I want. And she squeezed her arm against her side. About broke my heart.
Her next one was a woman with dragon, and an empty banner. She said, this one is for you, Mom, and the banner is for the name of your novel when you finish it. Again I was blown away...she knows that my writing is what I was born for and that for many years, apart from poetry, I've been unable to do it.
So perhaps that's where I got my notion of it being symbolic of relationships--isn't that what sailors often did? I sometimes watch Miami Ink, and people are always going in for tattoos that commemorate relationships. I've seen whole baby portraits tattooed on parents. She did say it would be cool to get it for myself, just not to do it for her. I get it. Hers were just gifts of love, mine I'd intended more as a ritual. I'm not entirely straight on it yet so that's a very good reason not to do it now. Maybe never. Thanks, P.
Wasn't looking forward to the hole-punching anyway! :shock:
Hops
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Hi Moon,
You did a brave thing in sharing something difficult with us. I hope you feel pretty good about that.
Love, Pennyplant
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Hiya Hops again :D
On the banner, it says Father, and she told me, I miss him, and now I can hug him whenever I want. And she squeezed her arm against her side.
Beautiful! She knows how to love herself too it feels, to me. Not sure i could ever be that....honest about my love for anyone. Really! :?
She said, this one is for you, Mom, and the banner is for the name of your novel when you finish it.
Is that a motivator or what?! Fabulous.
So perhaps that's where I got my notion of it being symbolic. She did say it would be cool to get it for myself, just not to do it for her. I get it. Hers were just gifts of love
I don't know if they were gifts of love? Gifts of love to herself maybe? not sure. Could also be a statement of her identity to herself - these were/are my parents, I keep them with me?
I don't know. We never know do we what someone else thinks unless we ask them?! I know we operate on assumptions all the time, otherwise life would get very tedious, constantly rechecking and testing understanding...but hey, you know what I'm like :D if it can be yakked about, yak about it. Just need to find me a Yak to facilitate the process 8) Hope you're having a good saturday Hops.
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Hi Hops ,Portia,Pennyp,
Yes I am not going out and spending money and I am looking back and wishing I had the understanding I have now.Looking back I wished I had had a deeper understanding of self .
I am not falling off the wagon I think I am "borrowing trouble " and "doing the what if's ".
Everyone is so honest and I guess I wanted to be brave and tell my truth I have a girlfriend that is bipolar she has been through so much and shame is not so much a problem for her she is just so glad to be healthy now.
I am grateful for your gentle kindness.
So much Love to all
I got to go do the dishes what a satisfying experience ..............................