Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tony001 on October 25, 2006, 11:43:41 AM
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Assuming that the best way to deal with N parents is to detach from them, limit your contact if not sever it completely, what do you say when they confront you with this behavior? Especially if there are grandkids in the mix.
Let me elaborate. N parents are NEVER going to understand your point of view. To them, they have done nothing wrong, are the source of no hurt and are innocent victims in the situation. So if I choose to withdraw and have little contact with them, how do I explain this behavior. I mean I can't just come right out and say. "Because you are NARCISSISTS!" That will fall on deaf ears. Keep in mind I would like to have some kind of relationship with at least one of my parents.
What do I say when they come knocking on the door wanting to have "a little talk" about all of the distance and changes?
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What do I say when they come knocking on the door wanting to have "a little talk" about all of the distance and changes?
I doubt they’ll be that upfront. That's what you might do, they probably won't?
What do you think they might do – turn up at your door and say “let’s not be silly about this, we’ve had our differences but we’ve decided to let bygones be bygones and we’re willing to forget the little problem we had” (implying you’re in the wrong).
And they won’t want to talk about anything in depth, unless it’s to make you feel guilty, there won’t be deep analysis (has there ever been, between you?).
Suppose they drop in to see your son. And they act as if nothing has happened. What would you do then? Flatter them I guess and keep your boundaries.
If you imagine all the scenarios, you might be prepared?
When did they last turn up unannounced at your place (i.e. it might not happen)?
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You're right Portia, there has never been any deep discussion of feelings between us. And confronting me is something they probably will never do.
I guess I'll just act as if nothing has happened which is probably what they'll do.
It seems like I spend a lot more time than I would like thinking about these people.
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Tony, Portia--
This happened to me. They showed up at my door unannounced and demanded to know what was wrong with me. Why do I keep them away from the kids, etc....... (Ironically, they had seen the kids 3 times that week!) They're usual m.o. was to wait until things blew over, but that didn't work this time, things weren't blowing over.
I think it's wise to just act like nothing has happened and they may not do anything. However, if you are worried about it, perhaps it will help to arm yourself with a plan.
here is my experience, maybe it will help you:
When they showed up and demanded to know why I didn't let them see the kids, I told them (NDad & NStepmom) that I wasn't trying to prevent them from seeing the kids (true) that I had boundaries and I'm sure that they don't understand why (true). This is where I should have stopped, but I didn't.
They pushed to know why I needed any boundaries. I said that I have a lot of hurts from my childhood that I was working on healing and that our relationship is damaged because of these hurts. (true)
They demanded to know what hurts I was talking about and my Nstepmom pushed to know what they ever did wrong. I said that they don't respect my opinion about how my kids should be raised. They took great offense at this. they said that Of course they respect me, and they can't understand why I would think that they didn't respect me.
But just a few weeks earlier I had asked them to please talk to me first before making plans with my kids. ( they would take the kids aside and tell them to tell me that they were going to take them to the mall, etc) When I told them that I wanted them to ask me before inviting the kids places, they FREAKED OUT! How dare I suggest that they would need my permission to take the kids somewhere?? They hung up on me and wouldn't speack to me for a week.
Anyway, this interaction was the perfect example of them not respecting my requests, But when i gave them that example, they said that they only objected because it was such a ridiculous request. I said, calling my requests ridiculous is not respectful. My dad said that I needed to have a good reason for making such a request. I said, the only reason I need is that I am their mom. He didn't argue with that.
My Nstepmom then used her great "change the subject" skill to ask what they had done to me as a kid. I said that I wasn't going to talk about specific inicidents, that it would servce no purpose and that all they needed to know was that I was working on healing those hurts. I wish I could have stuck with this line, but unfortunately, they pushed and pushed. I wish I had used the broken record technique and just repeated myself, but I didn't.
I told them one of the minor stories of a time when I was very sad about missing my mother and my dad screamed at me and attacked me for being rude to my stepmom. At the time, he essentially said, How dare I be sad, that hurts my stepmom's feelings!
Anyway, This is a direct quote from my dad, "You are making that up, I NEVER did that and when that happened, it was clear to me that you were a very vindictive girl, you were deliberately trying to hurt (stepmom) and I didn't buy your manipulative tears and whining." It's almost funny if it wasn't so sad. BTW, I was eight years old when that happened, my dad thinks I was a vindictive eight year old.
At that moment, all my denials came crashing down. What I once saw through a glass darkly, I now saw face to face.
I didn't try to answer my parents questions after that. I just kept repeating that I do want them to see the kids, but it would have to be within my boundaries and I know they don't understand and I know that's hard on them, repeat, repeat, repeat. Eventually, they kind of calmed down and gave up.
So, that's my story. I apologize if I'm hijacking your post.
I suggest you get ready with some kind of statement that you can repeat to them ad naseum.
You do not need to tell them why. If they want to know why, it's because that's how you choose to do things. If they want to know why you choose to do things that way, it's because that's what you feel is best. Or "that's what works for us." You can acknowledge that it's hard on them, if you want, but don't say you're sorry.
good luck!
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Don't feel bad about hijacking my post Jynna, your parents sound a lot like mine. I also remember the subject of missing my biodad (he commited suicide when I was eight) being "not open for discussion" mostly because my mom was afraid it would hurt stepdad's feelings. That began a long pattern of calling me "melodramatic", "overly sensitive" and "the sensitive artist type". It wasn't ME or YOU who had emotional problems it was THEM! They couldn't feel emotions like healthy people do so they mistook our healthy emotional responses as extreme or out of the ordinary. There was nothing wrong with us, we were normal, it was they who were warped.
I remember when I was just a kid I found a letter my stepdad's mom had sent him right after he met my mom. I remember this line: "...I can't beleive you are in a relationship with a woman, and one with a KID!!! If you do not stop seeing this woman, you can't be our little Davey anymore......" I feel like God put that note in my hands as a window into why my stepdad is the way he is.
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Jynna it's no surprise to me that your dad denied that he ever reacted to you in the way that he did when you were missing your mom. My mom blanks out entire portions of my past to suit her whims. She comes up with complete fabrications, the only problem is that I was there, and I remember, I know she hates that.
My parents hate to be told that they aren't allowed to do something with the kids. Our confrontation started over a toy gun that stepdad had bought for my son. Stepdad is a gun fanatic and has many loaded firearms laying around his house. So we made it clear that we didn't want our son playing with realistic looking toy guns. There are far more constructive things to play with and why blur the distinction between real and toy. Anyway for whatever reason we didn't want the child to play with toy guns, it was OUR rule. So I go to get into his truck one day and there's a shopping bag with a toy gun in it, a perfect replica of a Winchester 30/30. I tell him I don't appreciate it and it all went downhill from there.
He used to like to let my son play in the cab of his truck. I didn't like that. A motor vehicle is not a playtoy for a two year old. So the next time he comes over he takes my son out to his truck and then starts videotaping my reaction as I tell him not to let mty son play in the truck.
It's crap llike this, over and over.
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That began a long pattern of calling me "melodramatic", "overly sensitive" and "the sensitive artist type". It wasn't ME or YOU who had emotional problems it was THEM! They couldn't feel emotions like healthy people do so they mistook our healthy emotional responses as extreme or out of the ordinary. There was nothing wrong with us, we were normal, it was they who were warped.
wow, tony---this is exactly my experience. My Nparents (dad & step) always said that I over reacted to everything. The message I ended up telling myself was that "I make too big of a deal out of everything." This stopped me from getting therapy for so long.
Re: your parents blatant disregard for your rules-- it's good that you are starting out early in limiting their access to your child. You are really doing what a good parent should. If you allow this now, it will only get much worse (and potentially more dangerous) as your child gets older.
Being responsible for a child really wakes us up, doesn't it?
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Being responsible for a child really wakes us up, doesn't it?
It certainly does. It's like I had all of these primeival defense mechanisms going off in my brain when my parents were around my son.
I went to see a therapist about all of the emotions I was feeling. I asked her why, after having years of a "normal" relationship with my stepdad did I see a need to throw it away now that I was a father. She said it is because "healthy people do things for their children that they wouldn't otherwise do for themselves." I wasn't willing to remove myself from stepdad's presence but I would remove my son.
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Hearing these stories makes me glad that my parents ignored me much of the time. That messed me badly enough, but to be fed these lies and be blatantly blamed for everything that did or did not happen would have made me lose my mind.
Never give Ns too much information. Never give them personal information. It works better to say some empty little phrase that will smooth things over for the time being. They will buy it. They want to. They can't handle anything that smacks of truth, especially if the truth is, there is something wrong with them. They know what they did. They know it is wrong. They just can't help themselves. It is too irresistable for them. Like little children. Since they have to do these things, the only way to deal with possible guilt or repercussions, is conjure up a lie and then forget it ever happened.
Tony, can you move away? Being in different states from my mother for most of my adulthood saved me a lot of grief. I'm only just now beginning to appreciate all the trouble it has saved me. Now that we are in the same state for the time-being, I do appreciate the fact that they live an hour away. Even that much distance has been a great help. Very inconvenient for my mother, since she has a job working between 12 and 16 hours a week you know, just too hard to make that drive very often. Phew.
So, that's my other recommendation--move away if possible.
Pennyplant
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pennyplant-
It wouldn't help to move away, they would just follow me. I don't have to worry about stepdad, he has been sulking for a year and a half now, and unless I make the first move I don't expect I'll have a relationship with him anymore. Mom comes over about once a week and spends an hour or two, I see big changes going on for her (hopefully this is not just my fantasy), she has become a lot more tolerant of our requests and is really listening to us. My mom has definite narcissistic traits but she is nowhere on the same level as my stepfather.
You're right though, they take a little information and chew on it for days. My wife was really frustrated during my sons early toddler years and made an off-handed remark, more of a joke than anything: "Some days I think I could hurt him." My mom took that tidbit and ran with it. During "The Conversation" both my parents told me that my wife was potentialy abusive and shouldn't be trusted alone with my son. They would love to see me get divorced, even better fall on hard times and have to move in with them (cold chill up spine), then they would have me right where they want me. But guess what? I'll live under a bridge before I live with them. After my first marriage failed I was living with them, I was so ready to get out of there (after a week), when I rented a house I slept there with no electricty and no bed. I slept on the bare floor in the dark, that was preferable to sleeping under their roof.
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I was reading all the replies to this original post, and now I'd like to give my personal input.
Usually people who were very stamped down and are still feeling intimidated as adults, cannot speak up to their parents or take a stand in keeping their children away from them. I have no problem keeping mine from my parents, as I finally relocated to get away from it.
My personal view is that children need to keep away from POISON...unless it is in a cupboard and they are supervised...by saying this I mean that you need to keep your TOXIC so-called-Parents (who never deserved that honor) AWAY FROM YOUR CHILDREN, unless YOU ARE WITH THEM AT ALL TIMES! I do not know many true parents who leave their child alone with all the room cleaners within reach....it is the same way with N "parents"...KEEP THEM AWAY OR KEEP THEM SUPERVISED PERIOD
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Mom comes over about once a week and spends an hour or two, I see big changes going on for her (hopefully this is not just my fantasy), she has become a lot more tolerant of our requests and is really listening to us. My mom has definite narcissistic traits but she is nowhere on the same level as my stepfather.
I hope she really is changing, too. As long as your boundary with your step-father is very, very firm, like a brick wall, it should be okay to see how your mother does. Is it possible she is just being "good" until she thinks your guard is down? My sister used to be able to do that. She could be "good" long enough to make you think everything was okay. But as soon as something displeased her, it was right back to the old nonsense. Even her son recognized this problem with her when he was only 16 or 17 years old. He left home at that age and got himself through high school and into the Air Force. He was very wary of letting her back into his life before things were settled with the Air Force because otherwise, "she would mess things up" for him.
Just something to think about--probably that has already occurred to you. It sounds like you have really been through it with your parents. I'm glad you are enjoying your own family and giving them the love and care that they need. It is possible for families to be happy!
Pennyplant
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Mom comes over about once a week and spends an hour or two, I see big changes going on for her (hopefully this is not just my fantasy), she has become a lot more tolerant of our requests and is really listening to us. My mom has definite narcissistic traits but she is nowhere on the same level as my stepfather.
I hope she really is changing, too. As long as your boundary with your step-father is very, very firm, like a brick wall, it should be okay to see how your mother does. Is it possible she is just being "good" until she thinks your guard is down?
This is possible. She does seem to go through phases. My mom's narcissism seems to manifest itself in being crass and tactless. For instance we were eating dinner and my wife was sharing some of her parenting ideas. My mom says "Well my mom raised 8 kids and I raised one and I guess *****'s just got all the answers!" and then last Christmas my wife made cookies, my mom stops by our house on the way over to my uncle's house. My wife gives her a plate of cookies as a gift, my mom says "Ooh, I'll take these over to (Uncle)'s house, that way I'll feel like I've contributed something." She completely minimized my wifes giving gesture, twisting it around as an opportunity to bring positive attention to herself as a giving person. That's what they do, they minimize us.
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Tony, RM,
I supervised many of my D's hours with her grandmother and it didn't make a difference because I was still hypnotised. Still obedient.
I didn't wake up to Nism and its potential to harm and twist my D until long after she was grown, to my enormous regret.
Hops
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Yes, it seems like the only way they know to raise themselves up from the nothing they think they are is to drag down everybody else.
I'm glad you are so supportive of your wife. She must get her feelings hurt frequently with comments like those. She is certainly kinder to them than I would be!
Pennyplant
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(((((((((((((tony)))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((((jynna))))))))))))))))
This happened to me. They showed up at my door unannounced and demanded to know what was wrong with me.
ick
She said it is because "healthy people do things for their children that they wouldn't otherwise do for themselves." I wasn't willing to remove myself from stepdad's presence but I would remove my son
Wow tony, this is profound.
I can relate to all these instances. When I still had contact with N parents, IF I dared to cross them and not show up to a family function (I don't even have kids) they would most certainly come knocking, and they most certainly did all the things you fear Tony. I felt I had to come up with good reasons, and answers to their questions too. Part of developing strong boundaries is not needing to have "logical" or ready explanations for these Ns. Part of having strong boundaries is saying "NO" or pretending you're not home when they come around (and really letting go and not caring). Part of developing strong boundaries is loving ourselves enough that they can't touch us, can't hurt us, and we don't owe them anything. Not even an explanation why we don't wish to see them, or them to see children. If they really deserved it, would they be in their current situation?
I remember shortly before my wedding, my N parents showed up at my door (uninvited and unannounced), and they were very displeased. What could I do, I needed them at my wedding (they're the only parents I got). What would people think if there was a falling out before I got married and no one from my side showed? So, I let them yell, and ask What's wrong with You!? and point out all my behavior and actions that were a sign of my finally expressing some healthy independence, and they tried to bribe me with money even...
It felt really good ripping up that check for $1500 right in front of their faces too. :)
When the time is right, you will find the right words (if any) and you will know what to say (or not to say) and your children won't suffer like you did. I guarantee it. Cause you are thinking about all this and feeling bad, and have a conscience. Now, let that conscience start working for and protecting YOU (and your family).
hugs to all,
bean
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SAY NOTHING BESIDES NICE DAY WERE HAVING! WHEN I WENT TO MY PARENTS ABOUT MY DIVORCE AND HAD TO EXPLAIN IF MY NARCISSITIC ABUSIVE HUSBAND WAS SOOOOO BAD HOW DID I PUT UP WITH IT FOR SOME MANY YEARS. I TRIED TO AS NICELY AS POSSIBLE EXPLAIN THAT I WAS AN OVERSENSITIVE CHILD THAT NEVER FOUGHT BACK WHEN MY OLDER BROTHER WAS MEAN TO ME (NEVER EVEN MENTIONED THE ABUSE AND EMOTIONAL NEGLECT MY MOTHER SHARED WITH ME). THIS IMMEDIATELY TRIGGER A RAGE SCREAMING ABOUT WHAT HAD I TOLD THE THERAPIST ABOUT MY MOTHER. I KEPT PROTESTING I HAD ONLY TALKED ABOUT ME BUT THAT SIMPLY WASN'T ACCEPTABLE.
EVEN THOUGH I WAS IN THE EARLIER STAGES OF THERAPY THEN, I WAS SMART ENOUGH NOT TO SAY ANYMORE. I HAVE SLOWLY WITHDRAWN MYSELF FROM ALL NARCISSIST IN THE FAMILY. IT HAS CAUSED GREAT CONCERN AND ANGER. THEY CAN'T PUT THEIR FINGER ON IT SINCE I'M ALWAYS PLEASANT. THEY CALLED A FAMILY MEETING ABOUT THE LACK OF CLOSENESS AND DEMANDED ALL SIBLINGS BECOME CLOSE AGAIN. AS MUCH AS THE SIBLINGS THAT REALIZE THE NARCISSIM WE ARE LIVING WITH WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT OUR PAST I CONVINCED THEM TO KEEP THEIR THOUGHTS TO THEMSELVES SINCE IT WOULD ALL GET TWISTED AND TURNED AROUND ON THEM. NEVER SHARE YOU THOUGHTS OR FEELINGS WITH A NARCISSIST, THEY HAVE NO EMPATHY AND CAN AND WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU IN A TWISTED SICK WAY. I WILL NEVER BE HURT BY ONE OF THEM AGAIN.
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Hi Gap,
I don't blame you for wanting a nice loud voice!
You certainly seem to be seeing the reality of your parents very clearly, no illusions. Good for you.
Their response to your seeking therapy for your hurt was typically self-absorbed. I'm glad you won't let them hurt you any more, and I hope you keep up with the therapy and dedication to your own healing.
(I find it hard to read your posts because of the all-caps...would it be a pain to swith to upper and lower case?)
Glad you're here, and welcome!
Hopalong
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Hops,
I just wanted to be clear that I was thinking about adults who had overcome and were no longer controlled by the N, supervising the child with the N grandparent...if a person is still under N's spell, then just plain KEEP YOUR CHILD AWAY FROM THAT N!
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Hi Tony,
I just wrote and then managed to delete my post to you.
Other people said mostly the same thing...
Your parents probably won't even notice you are not talking to them as much. Unless they get bored. They would never assume you wouldn't want to talk to them. My parents don't call me... I call them... and a LOT less frequently. And, under the advice of those here, I keep it to the weather and vagueries. Nothing they can use.
Thanks for the words from your therapist. It is true that I didn't deal with them until I had children. I was constantly hurt and angry and didn't know why.
I would also rather sleep under a bridge that stay with my parents.I wouldn't move there if my life depended on it. And I would NEVER let my kids stay there alone.
Love and understanding for what you are going through.
Beth
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Sure, RM, I understood...and I think you were giving very good advice!!
(I just regret that I let my mother have such a powerful impact on my daughter...but you're right, I was still under the spell at that time, and didn't yet know about narcissism until a few years ago, after my D was grown and having such a terrible time.)
Just wishing I could've spared my D the pain...and had more of Write's philosophy of parenting, which I admire so much. I was too needy with my D and didn't know it.
:(
Hops
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Thank you all so much for the replies, they have really helped me a lot. The best thing is that I don't feel like I'm crazy anymore. It's like "My God, there are other people out there going through the same thing."
Bless you all. I love this board.
Tony
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yes! thank you to everyone, reading this is so helpful to me. I can't believe how many people are experiencing the same thing I am. So many years of me blaming myself for my poor relationship with my parents.
Thanks for the hug, penelope! It WAS icky when they showed up at my door, however, I count it as a blessing in disguise because it finally woke me up. Even though I was setting boundaries with them at that point, it was only because I was following my therapist's and husband's advice who I trust. I still was thinking that if I could just be a little nicer to my parents then they would understand me and everything would be great between us.
I still think a little bit like that, ---pulling yourself out of denial is hard work.
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I still think a little bit like that, ---pulling yourself out of denial is hard work.
I know the feeling. Although I've talked to a therapist, read some great books, and studied, pondered and obsessed long and hard on the subject, I still feel myself digressing away from progress and back into the blame and guilt of not being a good child. It really is an endeavor keeping your head above water when you are mentally challenging fantasies and beliefs that you have lived in all your life.
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Jynna,
you are welcome :)
hey tony,
I still feel myself digressing away from progress and back into the blame and guilt of not being a good child. It really is an endeavor keeping your head above water when you are mentally challenging fantasies and beliefs that you have lived in all your life.
My T and I are working on turning my "rebelliousness" or feelings of guilt and shame for going against my parents into new feelings, as these are simply errors in thinking, and those can be corrected. The theory is, one can take a negative view of oneself (I am a rebel) and turn it into a positive view (I am courageous). Why am I courageous? Cause I knew my parents would rage, but I went against their wishes anyway. I did what was right for me.
I hope it works!!!
bean
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Hi Tony.
It's hard to figure out what to say to N parents. I have leaned away from having a confrontation with mine. I watched my sister do it, and it seems all she really accomplished is making herself more comfortable in her codependence. Seems to me the problem is, if it is necessary for the parents to change in order for us to be happy, then they still have control over our lives. They may learn some better behavior, for awhile, but the relationship really stays the same. My father is rather good at this. He acts like a changed person and a nice guy, until I spend some time with him alone, and get whacked with the usual N/autistic stuff. I suspect they may even like some amount of conflict, because it keeps the game going.
My suggestion is to take it slow and continue your studies and personal exploration. You may discover things start to shift almost on their own. Knowledge of the situation in itself is a powerful thing.
"If you think you are so enlightened, go spend a week with your parents"
Ram Dass
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"If you think you are so enlightened, go spend a week with your parents"
Ram Dass
Ha! That is hilarious.
Hiya GAP,
Sorry I skipped over your post the first time.
you said:
I tried to as nicely as possible explain that I was an oversensitive child that never fought back when my older brother was mean to me (never even mentioned the abuse and emotional neglect my mother shared with me). This immediately triggered a rage screaming about what had I told the therapist about my mother. I kept protesting I had only talked about me but that simply wasn't acceptable.
I am so glad you sought therapy and are stronger now. What did it take to convince your siblings to follow suit, or who initiated it? I am very interested in this dynamic as I'm the first in a family of 6 adult children to declare "parents are narcissists, I want no contact!" I'm wondering if anyone will follow suit, how long it'll take, who'll be first (does birth order factor in here?) I'm the third child, oldest daughter. My role was the Lost Child or Scapegoat most of my life, but I was the only Hero when I realized I needed to divorce my parents.
Please share more if you'd like. I'm interested in your story.
bean
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Assuming that the best way to deal with N parents is to detach from them, limit your contact if not sever it completely, what do you say when they confront you with this behavior? Especially if there are grandkids in the mix.
Let me elaborate. N parents are NEVER going to understand your point of view. To them, they have done nothing wrong, are the source of no hurt and are innocent victims in the situation. So if I choose to withdraw and have little contact with them, how do I explain this behavior. I mean I can't just come right out and say. "Because you are NARCISSISTS!" That will fall on deaf ears. Keep in mind I would like to have some kind of relationship with at least one of my parents.
What do I say when they come knocking on the door wanting to have "a little talk" about all of the distance and changes?
I've thought all week about this and how I would respond ( did respond )
These thoughts spring to mind:
*limiting contact can lead people to step up their unhealthy behaviours as they feel slighted or rejected
*are you prepared to sever contact? It's not easily done. I didn't talk to my father for a couple of years at one point and even though I wasn't severing contact- I wrote to him every week and made it crystal clear that I was trying to build a new relationship with him but I was very unhappy with the old one- I still got long messages on my answer machine, he refused to correspond, and he dragged my siblings in to take sides! At one point my ex said 'you think about your dad more now than when you were tolerating his unpleasant weekly phone call!'
*if you are going to rework your relationships it'll take time and forever-reinforcement. Sometimes a very long time and you developing a broken-record approach and never wavering.
The first time I said to my ex 'I think you are abusive' he laughed in my face, told me 'a few home truths' about how crazy I am, in short was more abusive. That was nearly 20 years ago.
Now we have a vocabulary in our family- not just with ex, but the whole family. The denial about alcoholism ( which is so much part of ENglish working-class culture ) is still there, but we do all discuss it, and things aren't perfect about communication, just a bit better.
My father stopped expecting my support, and 'forgave' my insubordination and went off and found him a new life. We speak rarely but do correspond.
My ex and I are divorcing, but we have kept a family relationship to raise our son. It's not perfect but it's pretty healthy.
Ex is in ( and out ) of therapy. Son is extremely assertive and able to say when things don't 'feel right'.
This week he ( ex ) had a stressful time and fell right back into a pattern of berating me. I told him every day- you are being unpleasant and abusive. He didn't hear it until Thursday when I burst into tears and said 'I am so stressed' and told him to stop coming over. If I don't insist he will push and push and assume I'm fine. That is the hardest thing for me about him- I can never relax, never treat him like my other friends. The pattern comes back- though not nearly so bad as all those years ago when I first told him I wasn't happy and he was abusive and he was scornful.
I have done loads of therapy myself and read everything I can about models of communication and relationships.
And I have had to work on the reasons i was hooked into my family relationships and marriage, and meet those needs in other ways, and drop or change behaviours.
I guess what I am saying tony001 is you can change things for the better and each little positive step helps, but people ( including ourself ) are resistant to change.
If they are N change is actually emotionally deeply painful as it triggers their abandonment and sense of being deep-down unacceptable.
I am still not in the same reality space as my family members or my ex, but there's a big overlap now, in fact isn't that a model of intimacy: two figure 8 s overlapping, representing people being able to inhabit their reality and yours and it not detracting from either. Of course for two people to do that in balance they both have to be pretty healthy!
I can't put it any better than Ram Dass:
My suggestion is to take it slow and continue your studies and personal exploration. You may discover things start to shift almost on their own.
Psychologist Ram Dass said:
I help people as a way to work on myself, and I work on myself to help people!'
That's a pretty good way to live so long as we are committed to being really healthy ourselves.
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What would you say or think if a parent of an adult person came to visit and the first thing they asked was "are you alone"?
m
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What would you say or think if a parent of an adult person came to visit and the first thing they asked was "are you alone"?
m
well it depends on who they are and how comfortable I am on being alone with them I guess!
There are some levels of intimacy which people will only conduct one on one and rightly so, but it is also a trait of difficult people to try to collar people when they're alone so either they can have their full attention because they hate to share the limelight or so they can behave in a way they don't want others to see/recognise.
My father did this a lot when I was home with a baby: he would arrive 'to see the baby' and then five minutes into the visit and he knew I was alone he would be paying no attention to baby, start misbehaving, raise topics I didn't want to discuss or offload etc.
If there was someone else there he would make an excuse and leave unless it was obvious they were about to do so. A couple of times I turned the tables on him and thrust baby at him and said 'oh I'm glad you're here, I just wanted to take a bath/ go to the store' etc but he could move faster than me in getting out of anything! I had to be literally ready to get right out the door that second!
When he was at his worst I kept the curtains closed & didn't take calls, and I never gave him a key. I would tell him I didn't like him 'dropping in' but he wouldn't stop so I felt he left me no option but to physically block his visits.
Any attempt to steer the conversation onto positive things and away from his acting out would lead occasiionally to confrontation but more often than not he would just whine and get more and more child-like and obnoxious.
I don't think I would be nearly so patient with any of it these days, nor would I feel I had to give any more explanation for my behaviour than 'I don't want to' or even no explanation.
I think for someone who has been physically, sexually or emotionally assaulted by someone there is a long period when you can regress to the status of helpless victim which has to be overcome though, and the more damage they have done, sometimes the more power they retain. Sometimes we just have to cut ties and let healing take place far from the cause of the damage.
For less abusive but annoying people- well they behave in a difficult way because it often gets them results. We are much more likely to be cowed by an unexpected attack on us, or by tantrums and shouting.
Unexpected is the key word to that success though- if we are expecting it it's easier to plan our response in advance.
I do understand how it feels so alien when you've been in a certain position to adopt another, and also I have to tell you once I decided 'enough is enough' I would over-react myself at first.
I once threw my father out of my house physically, I shouted 'F**k off and don't come back!' The whole street stood still. I looked over and my younger brother, who I suspect had been thinking the same for a while was grinning from ear to ear. I was too mad to see the funny side at the time, but when I think of that now, all I can picture is my little brother looking so happy: the tide was turning!
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What would you say or think if a parent of an adult person came to visit and the first thing they asked was "are you alone"?
well it depends on who they are and how comfortable I am on being alone with them I guess!
There are some levels of intimacy which people will only conduct one on one and rightly so, but it is also a trait of difficult people to try to collar people when they're alone so either they can have their full attention because they hate to share the limelight or so they can behave in a way they don't want others to see/recognise.
Very true. It's something I just recently started to recognize in my dealings with my father. He's usually intimidated by large groups and stays quiet. But when he gets alone with a selected victim he starts in with the monologuing and covertly abusive behavior. Some of the things he says are outright insane. But there is no one else around to hear it so no one to compare notes with.
And he seems to desperately want these one on one visits.
I started getting some insight into this from reading the "psychological vampire" literature. A well known vampire fact took on new meaning: vampires only come out in the dark. The light of having other people as witnesses keeps them dormant.
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Dear Bean,
Sounds like we have similar stories. Third oldest, oldest girl 9 adult children. I was and am the scapegoat for the family only trouble is I keep standing and have had a successful life despite "always doing what I wanted." Two other siblings have figured things out without far less drama then I did. I married a narcissist and relived my childhood. Two brothers figured it out because of their frustration with their relationship with my mother and to a lesser extent my father.
One brother put the pieces together because his wife went to therapy to deal with stuff from her childhood and he got involved. The other just had a revelation when he tried to ask my mother a question that she didn't want to answer and she turned on him and called him names and ridiculed him. I excused myself to go to the bathroom knowing sparks would fly. When I returned she turned on me, called me names and caused a scene. When she left we were both a bit shocked but I pointed out it was cathartic for me because it was a reenactment of our childhood. My oldest brother would do something to "provoke" her and she would turn on him then me.
He was really upset by the incident so I suggested he look up narcissism on the internet. He was blown away by how it described our life and explained his always feeling unloved and unable to talk to our mother. He realized his poor treatment as a child wasn't about him. He wants to tell the rest of the family but I've convinced him they need to come to their own conclusions in their own time. You just can't force this stuff on people. Early on in therapy I tried talking to a one of my sisters about my reality and why I stayed in a abusive marriage for so long. This really upset her because she just wanted the problem to be all about me marrying the wrong man vs. my attraction to nacissist because I didn't know any better. It has caused a permanent rift between us.
The majority of the siblings are trying hard to protect the "perfect" image. Have you been watching Brothers and Sisters? Sally Field does a good job of playing the controlling narcissist, fortunately, for her TV family she always does what we wish our narcissist would do, she sees the errors of her ways and says something profound and loving. would like to hear more about your situation.
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hiya again gap,
you are so lucky to have some support from your brothers. Which brothers (birth order) have realized it? For me, my older brother (second born) seems to be coming around. He was typically the other scapegoat.
Your family sounds a lot like mine. I guess now you can join beth & I in our internet "twins" status :wink: - whenever I write something about my FOO, she very often can relate. The similarities are uncanny!! Ns really seem to be cut from the same cookie mold, it seems. The good thing about this is, at least they're predictable.
I also have sisters in denial, and the permanent rifts started long before I ever learned of N, or tried to fix it, or only tried to convince them (in my naive everloving way) that I was not the problem in our family, our parents were. They continue to want to believe it is me.
I am learning to be supportive to my brother who is confused, but to not become engulfed (Rather re-engulfed) in the family drama. One thing I've noticed, however, is that the FOO stuff replays itself at work. The roles are the same, there are just different actors. I'm at this time trying to separate myself from an N boss and N coworker who are drama-addicts galore. The boss triggers me to think "N-Father;" my co-worker is so much like my N-sister, its scary. She is the "queen bee" and what she says goes. Its tough to get away from them, but I'm working on it. Also on detaching.
hugs,
bean
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Moon
What would you say or think if a parent of an adult person came to visit and the first thing they asked was "are you alone"?
It might mean:
- they're afraid of your spouse/partner/children
- they need to know which 'persona' to adopt depending on who's present
- they want your full attention to bend your ear
- they want to know if you're free to be abused!
- they're afraid of being surprised by other people and don't feel safe unless they know who's at home
- they're well-mannered and want to know if they need to say 'hello' to anyone else present when they arrive.....
You okay Moon?
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HEY Portia ,
I am OK a little manic and sleep trouble that's all something I am learning to understand.
Also now with more understanding I am having to deal with the
aftermath and the feelings from realizing what the hay happened to me.
I do believe in unconditional love I have the feeling I would stand in front of a train to protect my children .
They do know how much I love them.And that's a good thing.
They say ignorance is bliss well it really is not but at times I look back at the times when I thought I knew the world and now it turns out that the old world I believed in was an illusion.Well I do take comfort that on some level it's all an illusion.
But if I just get enough sleep I am not afraid.
Awwwwwwwww Portia I just get a little afraid sometimes Mr moon helps me and then I do get sleep and I am OK.............................. :D
Much Love to you P
m
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My N. exhusband, thinking we were alone went off on me. When he realiized a friend of mine had witnessed his rage he apoligized for having done it in front of her but not for the rage. This was shortly before I filed for divorce, it just made it so much clearer that he was able to control his bad behavior if he thought someone he liked was watching and that he wasn't sorry for abusing me just sorry others witnesseed it and might think ill of him.
Bean,
My oldest brother gets it as does my brother just a year below me. This has only happened in the last 4 months...I did 3 years of realizing this all alone and trying to get the family to realize I wasn't the cause of all the problems. Hang in there, when someone jumps in the water with you life will be easier.
The family members clinging to perfection all holding on strong. If you knew some of the crazy conversations I have had trying to get them see the light you wouldn't believe it. Certain family members are convinced that I hold the power to make or break any situation and if I would just change and behave how they wanted me to all the family problems would vanish. I have officially given up and it is very freeing.
GAP