Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: dragonsamm on November 10, 2006, 12:07:52 AM
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Hey Guys
I truly don't mean to be insensitive, and I certainly admit I may be totally ignorant about this, but I have a question about something i don't understand.
I read a lot of stuff in these threads about people being repeatedly hurt and manipulated by people they have labeled Narcissists. People who are either family, "friends", significant-others, etc. The question is Why do you allow yourself to be a part of the life of someone who does not honor your basic human dignity???
Now, I don't know the clinical definition of Narcissism, but I have parents with issues similar to a lot I've heard in here. You know, I learned a LONG time ago to not look for any emotonal support from these people. I go so far as to avoid contact with people who treat me in ways i don't like to be treated. If that means not having a "normal" relatonship with a sibling, a parent, an acquaintance, so be it. Why would anyone repeatedly subject themselves to bad treatment once they know that the other person is not going to change (and that shouldn't take more than a few incidents to realize).
Don't get me wrong. I DO understand dependency, co-dependency, self-abasement, lack of personal boundaries. I have been there in many ways. I understand growing up feeling unimportant, invisible, and worse. I understand how that affects one's self-esteem. I struggle with that myself. But as an adult, to walk away from an encounter with an abuser (whatever label you give them), feeling less than human in their eyes, and NOT recognize that the issue is with them, and you don't ever have to deal with it again, ......well, what am I missing here???
I am listening......
~dragonsamm~
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I think with me it has been a matter of not recognizing certain patterns and red flags for what they were. So, I would get kind of "reeled in" and "bond" with these people. When I did recognize that they had something wrong with them, I stayed because I had been taught to be overly responsibly. So, I thought I could and should "help" them to change, improve or whatever. So, part of my journey has been just learning to recognize where I leave off and others begin and recognizing red flags for what they really are. The next part of my journey is learning to accept just being with myself since I was also always afraid to be lonely.
I have often been able to recognize red flag behaviors in other people's relationships, though, and feel a sense of injustice about that. My mother for instance, was "reeled in" by her boyfriend and I saw very clearly that he wasn't good for her or playing fair. But she didn't see it. And I probably wouldn't have seen it if it had been my relationship. But I was taught all my life that my needs didn't matter. That was just a given. So, why would I even apply my "seeing" ability to myself? I was exempt from the rules of good treatment in relationships.
Since coming here I have made great progress in these areas.
Pennyplant
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as an adult, to walk away from an encounter with an abuser (whatever label you give them), feeling less than human in their eyes, and NOT recognize that the issue is with them, and you don't ever have to deal with it again, ......well, what am I missing here???
Interesting question D/S!
Well I'm a Christian for a start, so whilst that doesn't mean I have to accept abuse on one level it does make me feel I have a responsibility to help others, to be a Good Samaritan, and to 'turn the other cheek'. I do it at a distance, but I do forgive and I do give people chances and I can give love even when there will be no reciprocity or appreciation from that person; and it has been the love which has made the difference to some of the difficult people. Now I see it as G_d loves me so I can love them...I can't control their behaviour but sometimes I can influence it or G_d can, and I can control mine ( as much as a Bipolar can say that! )
I have a 10 year old son with my ex- I feel I can't walk away if I wanted to, and by being kind and patient and unwavering I think I have acheived more than confontation would have. We'd be slogging it out in court now to no avail if I hadn't taken a step backwards and said ok- you take what you need. Ex put himself in therapy when he finally saw how out of touch and cold he is; that has to be better for my son than the denial and anger we were getting before ( now it's more denial and geniality! )
Many people are reluctant to give up their families, D/S, and are willing to tolerate the painful encounters with the Ns to maintain some contact with the rest; because Ns so often want to be the centre of things and their good qualities mean some people don't see their bad, and others are drawn to their charming self, cutting out the N can mean cutting out the whole family or friendship network.
It's also given me a strong insight into Nism, to keep my ex in my life, and I no longer find it frightening when I encounter lesser versions in daily life; I know that people's bluster and manipulation is a sign of their weaknesses not their strength. It's taken the power out of the situation to be abused again to see through aggresssive behaviours and know it's nothing I did which caused them ( the message of my family was very much- it's all your fault; I was the 'scapegoat' )
In The Verbally Abusive Relationship Patricia Evans says if you are going to be around an abuser let nothing go- challenge everything. I'm sure it makes me jolly company to be around ( not! ) but that's what I've done with ex- broken record on the behaviours which affect our son. Course it's meant I've had to get in line my unacceptable behaviours too, so as not to be unreasonable!
And also there has to be a cut-off point with the level of abuse- some psycopaths are so dangerous they will destroy or even kill others and they have few or no redeeming personality characteristics to hold them back or compensate for being in a relationship with them. Some people should have 'run' tatooed on their foreheads- and if we ask the right questions and pay attention when we first meet they usually have as PP said 'red flags' all over them.
Children whose feelings are neglected or negated respond by neglecting their own emotional needs.
absolutely. And in my working class UK culture I saw NO positive role models growing up for happy marriage or positive parenting. I saw other people having more fun than us or more love in their families. But it was a culture of hitting, shouting, blaming, lack of affection, stulted ambitions, low self-worth and high self-consciousness. Loads of heavy drinking, loads of shame. No joy, no sponteneity.
When I went back last year I saw just how 'raw' the emotions were in my home town, how much the whole culture contributed to stultifying self-development and happiness and mental wellbeing.
And how resistant that setting is to change and growth. Telling people I've been in therapy elicited not curiosity or empathy but suspicion and dismissiveness!
When someone tries to change they provoke the response of their immediate family, their friendship network, even their whole culture- and we are programmed to be social inter-dependent beings and sensitive to the responses of others.
I understand fully why it's hard to detach, and isn't it something stuns us about the Ns- how they can flip their attachment switch on and off at will?
For most people it's a process of detachment and setting greater boundaries, and only cutting out someone who is too toxic for there to be any hopeful relationship outcome.
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hi dragonsamm,
I have the ability for the first time in my life to see the abuse in my family of origin, and I did walk away. It was only slightly less painful than staying.
But, I think I'm healing slowly everyday. Healing for me means the pain is subsiding slowly, since I don't let myself be re-traumatized, by putting myself back in the abusive situation repeatedly.
hugs,
bean
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Dragon, abusers often play nice one minute and slam you the next.
A lot of people will close their eyes to the slamming and focus on the nice,
partly because we have a bias towards 'positive thinking' in our culture that puts a stigma on thinking otherwise,
partly because of the 'amnesia for abuse' thing,
partly because we may believe we are obligated to endure abuse for various reasons,
and partly because the slamming is scary.
It's frightening to think that someone who is being so sweet to us one minute can be so savage to us the next, and really mean that savagery.
So we convince ourselves that the sweet stuff is the real person and the slammer is 'just a mood', 'just a phase', 'just the alcohol talking'. But with an abuser, it is always the other way around. The slammer is what's real, and the sweet stuff is just bait.
Hunters may put out salt licks or other forms of bait to lure an animal within range of their blind. Fishermen bait their hooks. They do this because it makes it easier to get dinner on the table.
Abusers are hunters and fishers too, but they hunt and fish people and psyches, and they're all poaching. The unwary and unprepared, the innocent and unsuspecting, end up as lunch. Possibly for years; sometimes for a lifetime.
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Thanks for the responses
I understand better now. I guess I've come a lot farther than I had realized. My history of being in abusive relationships was re-awakened while reading these posts. Growing up with a raging father and a cold,emotionally unresponsive mother (who was also being abused by this man), I learned early to go into my head instead of feel the fear and confusion that were presented to me everyday. My salvation came in the form of a Catholic Priest counseling me in High School, showing me that my intelligence could, indeed, save me from the terror. What I did not learn at the time was how to re-incorporate my feelings into my rational life, and I was vulnerable to emotionally abusive and/or unresponsive relationships. My first husband was the unresponsive type after we'd married. He was all about me before the wedding. I lived with that for 15 years because he could so easily fool me into believing he DID indeed understand my needs and was going to start giving me what I needed just as soon as.....(fill in the blank). 15 years later i finally realized it was NEVER going to happen and walked out. Every relationship since then has been either emotionally abusive or emotionally unresponsive. So I give up on men. I don't know how to pick the "right" one, obviously, no one that i would ideally choose would ever begin to understand and fill my needs, so why bother looking?
BTW: Cognitively, I know that statement is skewed, but I don't know what to do to change myself so I simply stop expecting to find anyone for me.
thanks again for all the responses. I feel your pain in the situations you feel you can't walk away from. Take good care of you, even if nobody else will.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ALL OF YOU ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
~dragonsamm~
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Keep working and working and then suddenly just as you are convinced that you are simply going to maintain some small hole opens and a smattering of light streams though and you progress a little further. This community then encourages and supports each other. We hold each other up when we feel we can go no further. We offer support until we find the strength to pick up and try again to push forward. That is what family ideally but seldom does.
I am thankful to be here and feel that finding it was nothing short of a miracle given to encourage me and keep me pushing forward. As I walked up the stairs to bed last night I thought of you all by name and gave thanks for you and your friendship.
your friend - Gaining Strength
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Keep working and working and then suddenly just as you are convinced that you are simply going to maintain some small hole opens and a smattering of light streams though and you progress a little further.
Balance and strength these I am getting a handle on.
I no longer blame and living in the past and also have come to a place were I understand the gifts within the problem.
Although the gifts are so easily understood from my mom .My father's have been more difficult.
I have come not to blame and deeply respect the gifts from him as teacher .
I am hoping for other teachers that have to do with my spiritual path.
But I am not blaming. That is a place to get stuck for me again.If my father could understand that would be good but not NECESSARY to me.
Last night I experienced deep love and knowledge of what I have learn from my parents.
From my Father: though this fire I am Strong.Strong enough to really love him.
Whether he ever knows this or understands this I do I do not know, and my side of the street is clean .
Thur fire from my father and through deep clear blue waters from my mom.
Thur fire and water I have come.and now my path goes on.
well I do not know what I am babbling about love and more to all
moon
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Moonlilght
your expression is so lovely. I am thankful that I have gotten through the rage to sadness and compassion for my parents and theirs.
If I am able to extend it to them then I should be able to extend it to myself. I'm next on my list for compassion and caring.
I love what you have written here. I am able to love my father. I love him as the adorable chilid he was - so full of life and intelligence and
the desire to please and be pleased, to see good in others and make friends and be a friend. It is a true tradgedy that his life was in the traditionaly s
sense "wasted" by endless unkindnesses from austere unloving broken parents. I love the child who was my father and the man he wanted to be. That was the good life. And now I must find my path out of this labyrinth of generaltional brokeness in order to give my son hope for a full life. I am so thankful today
that I am beginning to be able to grab hold of my will and direct it beyond the compounded fears. I never thought I would see the day and if it is only one then I will learn to build on the memory of it to make it two.
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GS Your love and great mind melts any discomfort away .
Your insights have helped me soooooooooo much
We are quite a group humbly I say
This is a place of great love understanding and love
The hue-man expressions here are so very dear...............
so much more love to you and then more
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We are quite a group, I humbly reply.
And I am giving thanks every day. - GS
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Ditto ditto! Echo echo!
Smacking my flippers together and barking!!!
(((((((((((((Moon, GS, Jac)))))))))))))
Gracious sisters.
xxoo,
Hops
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Dragon,
For some of us that have been abused as a child we are fortunate enough to marry people who are not abusive. I thought I was marrying a terrific man. Within a few weeks of being married I remember thinking ...."I thought once I got away from my mother I would never be treated this way again." I truly thought I was must be soooo annoying to love that you had to treat me abusively. I thought I had misjudged the man I married. I was too afraid to tell anyone of the abuse, it was embarrassing. Then there were the days when he would tell me I was the love of his life, the best thing that ever happened to him. His mother would tell me she never thought he would meet anyone that could understand him. I got pregnant shortly after we got married...I gave up my career and stayed home.
Just before delivering my 2nd baby the abuse got terrible....I ran out of the apartment with my baby and went to my parents. I was 26. I poured my heart out, told them of my fear and the abuse. They told me to return and figure it out. They told me maybe if I acted differently he would behave better. He worked alot, I had babies and raised them. We all walked on eggshells when he was around. The rages and outburst were unpredictable. When I tried to discuss the abuse he told me to quit watching Oprah, when I talked to his brother about it he said that all executives treated their wifes poorly since they were under alot of stress. His mother talked in code about the behavior and told me how special I was that I could "handle" he son.
There were goodtimes and bad times. I let him do whatever he wanted to, travel whenever he wanted to, go out when ever he wanted to....I happly took care of the kids and built a life for myself volunteering and raising kids. I made him look good and our life look perfect. The eggshells hurt. Eventually I dragged him to a therapist...he complained the socks weren't lined up in the drawer properly and sometimes I would not pick up the dry cleaning on the same day I dropped it off. I would try to talk about the abuse, we accomplished nothing. The therapist finally words were don't leave until you know you have done everything you possibly can to make the man happy.
More years a couple more kids...financial success....more drinking....more arrogance. My "what the hell am I doing moment" came when I went overseas with him on a trip with a female business associate. The man I thought I had married was on the trip. Kind, nice, considerate....I had no idea what narcissism was at the time but I knew this behavior was not for me but to impress her. I remember sitting up late at night weeping saying I'm so thrilled you are acting like the man I thought I married but I realize you are not doing it for me but rather for her. It was then and only then, 16 years into the marriage that I realized I wasn't crazy, I had been tricked by my husband, I thought I had married a different man.
I went home, sought therapy and began the journey to recovery. It took 4 more years before I began the divorce processes. I tried every resource I could to try and fix the problem. The situation and abuse would get better for a short period of time then much worse. I didn't start reading about narcissism until I was separated...for me the concept has been difficult to grasp and believe...but I get it know. I have had to work hard at not just divorcing my husband but also setting boundaries with my family members and emotionally detaching from the abusive one.
Because of my genetic nature my reaction to growing up in an abusive household was to accept the abuse and take responsibility for others bad behavior...the scapegoat...others react differently depending on their genetic make up...some become abusers...others shut down emotionally...but everyone pays a price. It is how you deal with it when you start to understand what is going on that matters. Without therapy or an awakening you cannot possibly live life to the fullest and you more then likely passed the legacy on for one more generation.
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Oh, Gap:
Your parents' betrayal must have left you feeling so terribly alone, that you gave in and gave those years to him. I am so sorry.
But I'm so glad you have your children and have stepped into your own life at last.
Never doubt yourself.
You have lived through fire and you are forged strong.
Hops
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Dear GAP,
For me, your powerful story demonstrates how a person with N/dysfunctional parents can wind up with an N/dysfunctional spouse/partner.
I really relate to your parents telling you to go back to your NH and behave differently!!! This happened to me as well. Since I have learned about Nism, I now shudder when I think that I asked my N mother for advise on how to deal with my N boyfriends' abusive behaviors. My N mother would ask me "what did you do to make him act that way?" I always felt that it was wrong that my mother immediately assumed that I was at fault, but I could not put my finger on it. Now I see that my mother was an N.
Yes, I echo Hops' sentiment about your parents betraying you and I too am sorry that they did this to you.
I relate to so much in your story, like the lack of boundaries and growing up in an abusive houshold where you had to "accept the abuse and take responsibility for others bad behavior". Me too.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I wish you strength and healing
Dazed
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I can empathize and understand your thoughts. This is my thoughts about it. You are fortunate because you say you have your boundaries - you can turn and walk away. It's not easy when you aren't totally aware of what you are going thru. I was married for far too long to an Abuser. He intentionally withheld affection and conversation. he was wonderful in the beginning- then we were living together and 6 months later, it's as if someone flipped a switch. He changed dramatically over night. Only I was young - in my early 20s. Alone. My immediate family was 2500 miles away. I didn't feel I could tell them any of my problems. I didn't feel that I could say "please help me - send me an airplane ticket." I felt that I had to be strong and "endure" because that is how I was raised. If anyone asked how I was - I was trained, I mean raised, to smile and "Everything was fine." But that's probably because my mother would "release her frustratons in life on me" and/or correct me, by slapping me and throwing me around. I would cry so hard that I would sob and it would be hard to breathe. When it reached that stage- I was told to STOP IT. Sometimes get smacked for crying. During the beating - I would be told that "I didn't deserve". And there was "SHAME on you." When you are beaten for something minor, or emotionally destroyed by the person you love most in the world (mother) and being told you don't deserve a wonderful mother like her, and/or I should be ASHAMED - ashamed for what? living? Being who I am? A little girl who just wants to please? It's hard to turn that kind of thinking off. Being told I should be "ashamed" and not knowing what I was ashamed of - made me just that. Ashamed to be me. Constantly walking around thinking there was something wrong with me. How dare I be me???? How could I do such an awful thing? AND another part of the "control" was to tell me "look - everyone is staring at you. Look at them looking at you - what do you think they are thinking?" Well, since my mother obviously thinks I am nothing, it must be true, and they must think I am worse.
And then after being smacked around - I guess she was scared I would "tell". So then - the lecture was "don't tell anyone", "I was LUCKY to have her for a mother," and "you don't deserve to have a good mother like me" Or - the guilt "what if she dropped dead right now - you would feel so guilty." Guilt and Shame.
You can't turn that thinking off even when you know what was done to you is WRONG. I spent far too many years thinking people thought the worst of me. I lived in an abusive relationship where I thought I was "lucky" to be in it. You have to remember - my mother told me as a toddler until I was grown -that I didn't deserve.
Not everyone has a support group. Not everyone gets to go to therapy. And therapy is only as good as the connection between the patient and the therapist.
Read about abuse on the websites. Emotional and mental abuse is a slow spiral downward. The abuser is smart - he works on you. You know something is wrong but you can't pinpoint it. he makes it so you will never leave him because you aren't good enough to take of yourself.
**I finally got out. I'm still healing.
Good luck and blessings to all of us who are still finding our way and still recovering.
Oh - and my mother. I love her dearly. If she knew what she did - she'd be broken hearted. She's 90 now. On one of my trips back, she said to me "You know - I had high self esteem until I got married. After I got married I had such low self esteem. How about you? is that how it was for you?"
I told her"No mom, I didn't have high esteem to begin with. Mine was very low and got worse. Now it's finally getting better."
Take care.
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Hi Amelia Rose,
Thank God you got out and are now on the healing path. Good for you for being honest when you told your mother that your self esteem was low to begin with. You have a support group now--us. Lots of people to read and nod their heads in agreement. Lots of people who know where you're coming from. Lots of people who were also taught that they were nothing but now know that was false teaching. It is good to not be alone in this, isn't it? :D
Pennyplant
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Well, after reading all of these replies, I see even more how much I internalized EVERYTHING, and so easily let go of the anger at the perpetrators. The anger that I haven't seen in 30 years has manifested itself in my self-abuse. From negative self-talk to overeating, to anti-social behavior, I couldn't be angry at the parents, after all. They were only doing what they were programmed to do by THEIR upbringing. And believe me, what I know of my father's upbringing would have made a monster out of Mother Teresa!
I don't feel I need to be angry with them personally, just the dynamics that created the situation.
I remember from a very young age being verbally abused with "shame on you" and "what do you think you're doing? Now people will think badly of ME!" (as if.....)
My father's moods were so unstable, just walking into a room where he was lecturing a brother got you in trouble for deeds long forgotten (but not by dad!) Like lightning bolts out of the blue, we never knew what would set him off, and until the age of 5 or so, I was oblivious to the danger, so I walked into the fire repeatedly before I finally learned to be cautious. Actually, I never learned it well enough, he always found the most incredible accusations I ever heard. (even when I was out one night with a church group, he found reason to pick a fight) And I WAS being good!! Could never win with the guy.
The result of all the abuse has been a litany of beliefs and words and messages running around in my head for absolutely years, teaching me to micro-analyze everything i said, did, wanted, believed, thought, dreamed, imagined, for flaws. And OF COURSE I found them!! And there are literally hundreds of these "tapes" that i know I have not even begun to unravel. The most insidious of them has been, "You're doing it wrong". I can actually remember being told by one or both parents at some time in my youth that I 1) thought
2) walked
3) Ate
4) talked
5) slept
6) laughed
7) cried
8) sat
9) stood
10) believed
11) wrote
12) sang
and 13 ) breathed
wrong in some way.
And that voice is so persistent, so insidious, that i have spent the past 35 years looking for the "formula", the "right way", the "cure", the "answer" to all of my wrong ways. Which, of course, is non-existent.
My last counselor helped me understand the value of accepting things as they are. No, I can't sing on key, but it isn't "wrong", just different than others. And Ken Wilber's No Boundary helped me understand the value of all things, even what appears to be evil, negativity, etc.
But still, I struggle with it because I don't have a place where I can be just me and ALL of me is OK. I can't find that peace, that place. It has become a part of who I am to search for 'fixes'. To fix the wrongs that just have to be there, nobody's perfect, after all.
Just don't know how to do it. So, hey, guess what?? I'm "wrong" again!!! Surprise, surprise!
I am encouraged by your stories, your assertions of regaining 'yourselves'. Maybe there;s still hope for me yet.....
:)
~dragonsamm~
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Wow Amelia Rose, you story of your mother and the way she treated you really brings back memories. I have to say I'm glad my reaction to my mother's abuse was to become a victim (I should say survivor) vs. an abuser. One of my sisters received an email from a girl that use to babysit for the older half of the family before my sister was born. She had read an article about the some of our family members that are in business and wonder if we were the same people. She wanted to know what had become of me because she remembers how cute, fun and sweet I was. Do you know that is the only time in my entire life anyone spoke of me as a little girl...I truly thought I was annoying, ugly and hard to be around....I took out a picture of myself as a little girl and realized she was right...I was adorable and looked like someone I would have loved to raise or babysit for.
A therapiist once said to me to raise healthy children all you need to do is let your kids know that if all the kids in all the world were lined up that you would pick them....I burst into tears and said "My mom wouldn't have picked me." I know she said that is why you are here. I try to let me kids know everyday they are the perfect kids for me.
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I don't really have time to post, but just want to say a big AMEN to Amelia Rose, Pennyplant, dragon, GAP & Moonlight.
I relate to all the things you're discussing and it's both liberating and painful to hear.
Wishing love, strength and peace of mind to you all.
dazed
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The result of all the abuse has been a litany of beliefs and words and messages running around in my head for absolutely years, teaching me to micro-analyze everything i said, did, wanted, believed, thought, dreamed, imagined, for flaws. And OF COURSE I found them!! And there are literally hundreds of these "tapes" that i know I have not even begun to unravel.
Wow Moon you really hit it on the head. I use to micro-analyze everything...try to see things from every point of view, always thought I made people behave badly...try to always prove I was right because I was told I was so wrong my entire childhood. I know I'm getting better because my reaction to bad behavior is no longer what did I do but rather what is wrong with that person?
One of my many brother, one that is not enlightened, recently said to me that he felt two of the siblings in the family had decided as young children to spend their entire life bothering my mother hence her abusive behavior. When I asked what I did to deserve it he said nothing other then be in the wrong place at the wrong time. He spent two hours justifying abusive behavior and alcohol abuse, saying it must have been rough to have to raise all those kids. He was so righteous and really thought he was analyizing our family from a superior point of view. It was so pathetic. He happened to be one of the kids that my mother would have picked so he had a good experience, the ones that weren't on her favorite list deserved any abuse as far as he was concerned because the rules of conduct and behavior were clear to him and he followed them and was treated well. The one that were not her favorites could have figured out away to make her less abusive and she possibly would have drank less. I swear if you watched our conversation in a movie you wouldn't belief anyone could think the way he does but he is rather invested in keeping up the fantasy. Come to think of it that conversation was another conversation were I was trying desperately to get my brother to see my point was right:. "Children do not bring abuse on themself." but I was talking to a wall.