Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Philski44 on February 27, 2004, 03:29:00 PM
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Am currious about others who have grown up with a N... parent. My father clearly has all the symptoms and I feel like Im still dealing with post tramatic stress disorder from the experience. Self-esteem, image, and sense of healthy boundaries have been dramatically affected. Part of this was from my fathers alcoholism, but he has been sober for over 30 years now. The N symptoms seem even worse than the past alcoholism.
Thanks.... :?:
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Hi Philski,
Welcome...are you Phil and do you ski? or is it an eastern european thing? :D Sorry noone has responded yet...I hesitate because I have been quite vocal this week.
Anyway, yes, many here have N parents. We seem to be featuring spouses this week...my dad is N. I wish I had seen it sooner. I was naive and blind. His particular flavor of Nness is emotional unavailability mixed with a few shots of shaming and occasional verbal abuse when we were not on the straight and narrow. Otherwise, happy days!
I know what you mean about PTSD. Although I do not have that clinically speaking, I read a site that described what happened to me later in life (due to my dad's conditioning of us kids) as a psychiatric injury. I was basically verbally bullied in my younger years by male family members. Later, I was subjected to much character assassination by a very close (geographically speaking) family member.
Do you have a current situation you are wrestling with? Self-knowledge, "divorce" from a family member or group? There may not be many replies here since the inquiry was fairly general. Feel free to tell your story in detail, and folks will come around. Also be sure to read the articles here and other threads. Keywords: Queen, Hell, crazy, you get the idea...
If you feel funky plunging in, lurk a while and you will find many fellow ACONs. Best, Seeker
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Hi Philski44
A relationships counsellor I saw years ago in relation to my N parent told me that agressive controlling parents, I guess they sort of fit the N profile in so many ways, do actually produce a Stress Disorder in their children and that the children suffer from things like panic attacks and high anxiety as a result, which affects them teribly at school and when they grow up. He told me that the anxiety for example that kids feel when their parents are fighting in front of them is similar in severity to what soldiers on the battle field experience. People around them are being destroyed an destroying each other and they get paralysed in fear, and hide and get busy and turn up the radio if they can, you know what I mean. They eventually try to block it out, grog, drugs you name it. He said if kids go through a childhood of witnessing and receiving severe anger abuse and manipulation etc when they leave home they can have as serious a case as PTSD as severe any returned vet experiences. He claimed he'd seen it first hand, the outcome was the same for both. He gave me a heap of material to read at the time and I was able to learn why I had panic attacks whenever my parents name came up. For me it's been a long hard road but I'm getting there with good relationships and learning to trust and love. And an exceptionally good therapist and being patient with myself. But PTSD is an awful thing to have and I wish you all the best. I read somewhere here and I can' t think where but someone recommended a site that had lots of good information on this subject. I'll try to find it and post it to you. Maybe someone else will know some good books.
Guest
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I am not sure either of my prents had NPD. But my mom in particular had some self absorbed tendancies... probably my dad too. I always give him a better rap. I took responsibility for their feelings as a child. I was (am) voiceless...
I have noticed something strage about myself and I wonder if it has to do with growing up with self-absorbed parents.
I am 22 and most strangers think I am between 12 and 15. People who know me are very protective of me. Sometimes on answering machines and on the telephone I am mistaken for a child.
Not very many people take me seriously. (even though I have an old soul) So, I often feel invisible. I guess the advantage is that I relate well to children and other people who society deems invisible. I am told that treating people with dignity and respect is rare.
I find this odd, because none of this is a result of behavior that I am aware of. Isn't that odd?
I have a better sense of boundries now and am growing in self confidence. Now I am married to a man with N tendancies to say the least. I have to make a pretty big effort not to be absorbed by him.
Another affect of being invisible and afraid of being absorbed. I keep wishing I was single. It's strange because I am the envy of ALL of my peers who want nothing more to be married. It's not just that I don't want to be married to my husband right now. I don't want to be married to anyone ever. Maybe the same theme of freedom over friendship... Maybe the grass is just greener on the other side. Maybe both! Nonetheless, I am married and I am trying to define my power and boundries in the marriage.
just some thoughts on the sjubject.
jskravill
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Dear Sjkravill,
You said,
"I keep wishing I was single. It's strange because I am the envy of ALL of my peers who want nothing more to be married. It's not just that I don't want to be married to my husband right now. I don't want to be married to anyone ever."
Despite your protests, what I am hearing you say is that you really DON'T want to be married to your husband right now.
We can only know how we feel NOW, because we are in that exact moment and are actually feeling it. We may also remember and evoke past feelings. But it is impossible to KNOW how we will feel in the future, simply because we are not yet in that future moment and have not yet lived those collective moments that have led us there.
For me, it seems that I feel certain things because of events that I am experiencing. The events and the conditions evoke feelings in me. These are sometimes easily predictable.....if I am in a freezer, I will feel cold. If someone treats me badly, I will feel hurt or angry and not want to be with that person.
So, when I hear you say that you don't want to be married to anyone ever, what I really hear is that, right now being with this husband is so painful, that if this is what marriage is like, you can't imagine EVER wanting to be married to anyone ever.
As for being the "envy of your peers" for being married.....well, just because everyone loves chocolate doesn't mean YOU have to, especially if vanilla is more to your liking.
And....they are not living in the marriage with your husband..... YOU are!! Do you think that they would be envious if they were feeling what you are feeling? I think that your peers may be envious of the IDEA of being married, not the ACTUALITY of your marriage. Whatever.....the fact of THEIR envy is not a particularly good reason for YOU to do anything. Only YOU know what is good and feels good for you.
Keep feeling your feelings Sjkravill. They don't lie to you and they will guide you to what is right for you.
Gingerpeach
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Thanks for the support and insight. I will certainly keep coming back here to learn more about something I've apparently lived with all my life. This is another huge piece to my recovery puzzle.
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Another affect of being invisible and afraid of being absorbed. I keep wishing I was single. It's strange because I am the envy of ALL of my peers who want nothing more to be married. It's not just that I don't want to be married to my husband right now. I don't want to be married to anyone ever.
Listen to your own feelings. For me the tricky part of truely seeing my marriage was validating my own feelings. The relationship was not SO obviously bad that I could justify leaving..... and yet, it was confusing and unfulfilling.
Now, my eyes are open. I see so much more and I realize that the feeling of "I want to be single and not married to anyone" was, for me, a wakeup call.
lynn
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Lynn and Gingerpeach,
perhaps both of you are right...
Part of me wants to say thank you for reminding me of the truth, and another part is just not ready to accept it. In fact, I have had to cut down on the frequency with which I check this site because thinking about all of this is interfering with my ability to compartmentalize, which I desparately need.
I really am confused... because this is not physical abuse or an affair, or even overt emotional abuse.
My husband can be so charming and sweet. He may be twisted at times, but he's not a monster. In the spirit of Lent, I keep having this image of calvary, thinking to myself, "marriage is not the hill I want to die on." Often I feel like I am sacraficing myself to stay together with him. But often it's not really that bad... Sometimes he is fun and thoughtful. In fact, he has told me he wants to be a good husband... Maybe it is all too familiar...
I am still discerning. Everything is a cost benefit analysis (as my businessman husband would put it). Leaving is too frightening for me right now. Facing the end would be a loss of hope, in a way. There are too many practical and emotional costs involved.
So, for now, I have changed my behavior to not respond to behavior from him that is self-centered, sadistic, insidious, disrespectful (though it is really hard when he is sad or mad because my instinct is to fix it). I have been able to disconnect my self esteem from him, at least significantly... I am hoping that he will get the point. Words don't work with him, but I am still hoping that behavior will.... I don't know how much this (staying) will cost or be of benefit in the long run. That's frightening too. I don't know for how long I will hold on to this hope... Thoughts of being unmarried are like breathing new air... (when I don't think about what it would cost)
I hope the clarity and the courage will come to me. Either way, it is (would be) an uphill battle. How did you know it had to end, and that you would survive the devistation of that?
wow! I always write so much more than I intend... thanks for letting me be honest.
Peace,
sjkravill
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I think, in this situation, you need to face your own demons before you can face the demons within the marriage.
If you fear the aloneness, the abandonment, the endings and new beginnings, how can you help yourself become independent? What would signify independence? What first step could you take?
eg making your own money; being alone for a period of time...
Just test it out, push your comfort zone in little baby steps.
When YOU feel strong, you'll be able to do what you know is right.
I recognise how you feel.
Take care
R
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Kudos to you Rosenkrantz, absolutely you must "face your own demons" first. and really the first of those is the realization that, on some level, you are being/feeling like you are being abused. It sounds so simple but that part was very difficult for me, especially when my N was so good at convincing me that I wasn't!!
Sjkravill, I don't think that anyone here would "tell" you that you "should" leave your husband. And I understand the part about being overwhelmed with the information and understanding on this board. So many have felt that they were the only ones to live in such craziness. So sad that there are so many of us and so wonderful that there are so many that are becoming aware and taking step to remove themselves from the abuse.
As Rosenkrantz said, "baby steps." Just starting to understand narcissism is extremely painful and disorienting. As for not coming here regularly, we are here when you need us.
To answer your question, it took me a year and a half to actually leave my N, after discovering that he was an N. One day it just became crystal clear and from then on all of my energy was focused on leaving and my recovery. My family and my friends were a great support. After I finally did leave, they confessed that it took everything in them NOT to tell me to GET OUT a long time ago. But they let me discover it in my own time, which is as it should be because then it comes from inside of you.
Also, I needed to get strong enough to actually do it. The things that you are working on, like being aware of boundaries and setting them are wonderful steps. If your husband can change his behavior, that is great. My N's behavior changed somewhat too, but I soon realized that the abuse just became more subtle. He really was a verbal magician. He seemed "nicer" but really he had not changed at all, he was just more careful.
What I found and others have also expressed, is that once you learn about narcissism, you won't unlearn it. Kind of like refolding a brand new map, it's never quite perfectly flat ever again. If he truly is an N, it will keep jumping out at you. I have become very vigilant, probably too much so. But the pendulum will swing back.
So, do whatever is comfortable for you, that's the best way to live life anyway, narcissism or not. And come back and tell us how you are doing evey now and then.
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Ok, here I am, back sooner than I thought I would be. But what's the harm in it if my N is engaging his "soft" addiction (video games) right now... and I am alone? I am doing the best I can to face this when I can. I thank you for being understanding and supportive.
I was just reflecing on both of your posts. Yes, I have to face my own demons. I have to learn that I don't owe anyone an explanation... that I don't have to be perfect or please everybody... that I can be totally self-sufficient... etc. I do enjoy being home alone when he is on business. One of my problems is that about a year and a half ago we moved 17 hours away from our friends and family. We are in a college/business town so most of my new friends/acquaintences are transient. I feel more isolated here than I would at home... not his intent. He does not want to come out and make friends with me, but I do my best to make friends without him. I also live in a conservative area where one doesn't talk about problems in marriage/family... much less the "D" word. I digress.
I think in learning about narcissism, (and reading others experiences here) I have become more aware of N tendancies in my husband's behavior, and my experience has been validated. (which is also somewhat frightening). I do worry that my husbad will only get better at his craft of manipulation etc... and it will be even more difficult for me to articulate/detect.
However, in recent conversations he has expressed his deep frustration with my boundries. Of course, I try to explain/reason with him. (I have not yet learned the utter pointlessness in that!!!!) And he indicates that he may just say, "**** it!' and that will be it." (he has threatened to leave me more overtly before, but I called his bluff.) So, maybe, if I keep setting boundries, he will leave me. I am so ashamed to say that on some level it would be a bit of a relief if he did. However, I know I can't hedge my bets... still gathering strength and truth.
Thank you ever so much for sharing yours.
sjkravill
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he has expressed his deep frustration with my boundries.
Two reactions : 'So?' and 'Well, of course he will'. Boundaries deny him what he wants and keeps you sane and healthy. Every time you feel guilty, he's making you feel guilty about putting your own needs first. In the N context, the victim has to learn to put their own needs first. In time, he'll probably turn it around and tell you that you are being N for doing so but it's NOT TRUE - it's just more manipulation.
So, maybe, if I keep setting boundries, he will leave me.
Who knows? But knowing Ns, I doubt it.
More importantly :
I am so ashamed to say that on some level it would be a bit of a relief if he did.
Why 'ashamed' - Glory in the fact that you know where the healthy option lies!! If you're thinking in terms of Divorce=Bad, just think in terms of Sanity=Good.
In the meantime, work on developing your social network - one that works without him. You don't need a joint social network. Pretend you are single again (I don't mean dating) - join things, go places regularly - it'll build up over time. He'll probably feel threatened by it so no need to discuss it at home.
But just do it!! :)
R
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One of the things that stand out to me about successful marriages is they often seem to involve a certain amount of compromise This is inevitable when 2 different people join together, with different families, jobs, lifestory's and needs. But nowhere, EVER should this compromise come at the cost of either party's dignity or self-respect. The union should if anything enhance those aspects of each other's character and life. this to me is the acid test.
Guest
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One of the things that stand out to me about successful marriages is they often seem to involve a certain amount of compromise
I think this is true of any long-term relationship, but I read somewhere recently that the biggest factor on having a happy life is choice of partner.
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Just posting a note -- on some health network tv show they were talking about how to enjoy a long and healthy life and one of the top requirements is to have close and loving relationships with family members and the more the better. There was a video of an elderly lady in a wheelchair with her family around here. It was not a fake looking "let's suck up to granny" picture, but looked like they were all just sitting around talking and laughing, enjoying each others company. I also read today that statistics show that depressed people have more heart ailments than others. This stress and strife caused to others is just so wrong. It sure is nice though when I see a happy family with a little girl skipping along, safe and secure with her parents.
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DG sure did hit the nail on the head here, for me! About the big, happy family.
Peach wrote:
"As Rosenkrantz said, "baby steps." Just starting to understand narcissism is extremely painful and disorienting. <snip>
To answer your question, it took me a year and a half to actually leave my N, after discovering that he was an N. One day it just became crystal clear and from then on all of my energy was focused on leaving and my recovery. My family and my friends were a great support. After I finally did leave, they confessed that it took everything in them NOT to tell me to GET OUT a long time ago. But they let me discover it in my own time, which is as it should be because then it comes from inside of you. "
skravill, it sounds like you "still" have family and friends. If what I read is true, and it sure was for me in my N family of origin, and my abusive 2nd husband, they will do their best to drive away and "teach YOU how" to drive away all the people you love, and who love you! They will help you find fault with each and every one of those people, twist your thinking to where you can't love them or trust ANY of them! And you will be so alone, so you will be completely under the N's SPELL.
My sister took 22 YEARS to separate from her abusive husband; it took me 5 years for the first; 9 from the 2nd; and 11 from the third.
And now for the Happy Endiing. La LA -- da DUM!!!!!!!
I may have already written this someplace -- but -- I now have a loving partner for the past 8 months who is wonderful. He is not perfect!! And I don't even want him to be. His faults are part of him, and I accept and love them completely -- and why? Because he is willing to work with me on them, and when we disagree we have come to various ways to handle his/hers faults and strangenesses. Always open to improvement in ways we handle our disagreement-techniques. Always improving, too. And that is because we love each other unconditionally. I never knew what that meant, and now I do. We CAN love each other unconditionally because we both know that neither of us will ever cross certain boundaries. For instance: we will never curse the other; we will never try to murder the other, etc etc.
We have given each other commitment rings. He has a large extended family. The largest one is actually an adopted family!!! His blood family is smaller, and on that side, locally, he has one son/daughter-in-law; one aunt, and one sister. On the adopted side (his second marriage of 31 years, from which wife he has been widowed 9 years), he has 4 kids, several grand-kids, and 3 great-grand kids with one on the way. His entire family loves me, and accepts me 100%, and are very happy with his choice of a sweetheart. I am always invited to ALL family functions, including large ones and then we have smaller events with individual families, too. And they are not at all intrusive, just kind, supportive, and loving to both of us. His apartment walls are plastered with photos of us all!!!!!!
Our love is so gentle, so accepting, and so loving -- it is like swimming in a warm lake with the most beautiful things all around -- whatever you love most in a warm lake, that is what our friendship and love is. It is not wildly passionate, but the virility is fine! He is 74, and I am 62. My love is priceless and nobody else will do. We are not jealous of others, and know we have each other's heart for the remainder of our natural lives.
We take care of each other with our various health problems; I have been to his doctor with him; he came to my therapist with me. He had never been to a therapist before, and I didn't take him for any "issues," only so he could see what my life is like (I'm bipolar). But issues came up, and he was open with me and my wonderful therapist, and I was open. I was amazed!! He didn't play any games, and things came up he'd never said to me!! Just like therapy is supposed to do!! What a man! He took the advice he was given, and I took the advice I was given, and things improved. He told the therp that he found the hour most interesting and informative. He will come again any time I ask,I am sure, and I do plan to ask again, when there is nothing particular to work out -- just so he knows where I am, you know? Just as I come with him to work on his ulcer and his other medical problems, which are several.
We also go to community theatre events. He is a wonderful actor, but right now cannot act due to eye problems. He may have to have surgery and does not want to drop out of his role in the middle. We appeared together in a short musical duet at Christmas at his favorite theatre. I wore a beautiful gown and played the guitar, and he sang.
We sometimes watch good videos; and I even watch some TV with him, which I never used to do -- I've never been a TV person. We walk a lot, and neither of us drives, which makes me very happy. I wanted a man w/o a car!!
I share this here to let you know, FINALLY [for me], what love is, in a partnership. I never knew before now.
Love,
Flo