Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dazed1 on December 07, 2006, 10:33:31 PM
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Hi Everyone,
I’ve been wondering about this: If one is codependent, enabling and enmeshed with a parent, does that indicate that the parent was an N?
My story: My parents are dead. I only became aware that I enmeshed with my mother and was codependent/enabling with her after she died. I believe I enmeshed with my mother because I did not want her to feel her pain.
In retrospect my mother (& father) had some N tendencies: I was a voiceless child, parents told me what my feelings were, they were verbally and emotionally abusive, they hit me.
But, my parents could be loving, caring, supportive.
My parents were Jekyl & Hyde. They often made me feel unsafe as a child because I couldn’t be sure whether they would be Jekyl or Hyde.
So, my question is: Are codependent, enmeshed children (ie: child enmeshes with parent and is codependent/enabling with parent) a sign that the parent has N tendencies OR can non-N parents raise codependent, enmeshed children?
Thank you.
Dazed
PS: I want to express my deep gratitude to Dr. Grossman for fixing the board. I missed you all. When the board was down, I felt like a woman without a country.
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Dear Dazed:
I don't know the answer to your question but I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry that you had to go through all you did as a child, that your parents treated you the way they did, and I'm glad that they could be lovng, caring and supportive, at least some of the time.
The Jekyl and Hyde stuff must have been very confusing for you and I would imagine the whole thing would create a lot of anxiety?
Your question almost sounds like you're asking whether your parents were N's or simply crappy parents? Is it Nness that causes enmeshment/codependance or is it parenting style type of thingy?
My guess is, it doesn't really matter that much. The pain it produces is the same. Sorry for that pain Dazed. :( :(
Sela
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Dazed, I am not an expert and am only offering my opinion.
But I believe that you did not enmesh with your mother but it was your mother who enmeshed with you. As an adult she had a responsibility to nurture you and protect you. She most probably had not been nurtured and protected as a child, herself and therefore lacked the capacity to provide those essentials for you and instead tried to get love and nurturing from you.
That is so completely backwards and is one source of becoming enmeshed with a child - she tried to live her life through you.
My late husband was enmeshed with his son from a previous marriage. It was really a Jekyll and Hyde experience. He could not let his son grow up and take responsibility for himself and he ended up using his son in a very damaging way - not out of hate - he loved his son immensely but he could not parent because he was far too wounded.
Perhaps those parents who enmesh all have N tendencies because it is certainly not ever in the child's interest. Though I am ignorant on the N portion of your inquiry. Hope you get helpful responses. - GS
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hi dazed,
I can relate to what you have come to know about your parent - that they were less than ideal. Whether your mom was N or not, I'm not sure by your description. Do you think she empathized with you? Was there a child she couldn't empathize with? Cause in my family, my mother certainly empathized, but it was all reserved for her "favorite." I did not receive this same treatment, sadly.
I so relate to what you've described as my own parents could be fiercely loyal - at least that's how they appeared, anyway.
For example: I remember as a child once coming home from softball practice and crying because I was put in the outfield when I wanted to play 2nd base. Mom or Dad, I don't remember which (they are both unreasonable), called the coach and "ripped them a new one," basically. Anyway, this was not done in my best interest, I don't think, because it only made things worse for me. At the next practice, the coach was so mad that she proceeded to "make an example out of me," and decided to embarrass me in front of the whole team. She sarcastically announced (very meanly, I remember) that someone had complained that they couldn't play 2nd base, and that their parents had called her... Next thing I know, I'm playing 2nd base again. Well, even though she didn't name names, it was obvious who's parents had complained, and I was made to feel guilty for their bad actions. I believe both the coach and my parents acted irresponsibly. It was all a power play on the adults' part, I was just their pawn. As far as my parents' motivation: they always felt their kids should get anything they thought we - meaning "our family" - deserved - cause we were so entitled and special, better than everyone else.
:shock: *sigh* I remember hating this when I was a kid. I just wanted to be like everyone else. I just wanted to be "normal."
In any case, I learned not to complain too loudly. On the upshot, it sometimes came in handy, having raving lunatics for parents... Lots of people didn't mess with me.
One time in highschool I remember being accused of plagiarizing a paper - I was so upset I ran out of the room crying and did not go back to class that day. Later, when I went home, I told my parents what happened. Since my Dad had observed me writing the paper, he knew I wrote it - also, I don't think there was any question that I could write in his mind - and I didn't have to plagiarize. My Dad was so upset, he called a meeting with the teacher, the principal and I - and to make a long story short - again, someone was "ripped a new one". :shock: In that case, I felt sort of like justice had prevailed. But it set a bad example for me, on how to deal with conflict. oh dear..
hugs,
bean
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Bean - what do you think your father would have done, if you had left the game, gone home, and told your parents that the coach deliberately humiliated you and retaliated against you because of your parents' having contacted her?
That coach was a bully, and she should have been fired.
There is no such thing as 'conflict' where bullies are involved, unfortunately. There is limit setting, and limit enforcement. There is no such thing as 'negotiating' because bullies do not respect limits unless forced to, and have nothing but contempt for negotiation, since they have no intention of honoring any agreement - again, unless forced.
Usually the effort it costs to maintain surveillance on a bully, once identified, in order to keep them from acting out vindictively, is not worth it; whenever there is any chance to get rid of one, that is the best course of action to take. Preferably with a glow in the dark label tied to their tails or tattooed on their foreheads.
I'm not defending your parents, here. I've seen plenty of inappropriate emotional force used against people when it was not necessary. OTOH, it sounds as though your coach definitely earned a colostomy without benefit of anesthetic.
You can be grateful that you were not her child, at any rate, although that is small comfort....
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Dazed: My mother is a classic N and I was raised to be codependent and we are totally enmeshed. I didn't know any different. For years I just thought it was normal to have a parent who made me feel guilty, dependent, etc. I had no idea that it was wrong. For years I knew I was frustrated but didn't think it was not right. Now I KNOW it is wrong and am making strides to break the codendency and enmeshment. Here's one. Yesterday I had a job interview and I came in late to work. My mom said "I heard you had an appointment?" And I said, "Yes." and changed the subject. In the past I would have felt obligated to explain where I had been - no more - it is none of her business. However, my nmom would never had gone in and defended me in anyway. The teacher was the authority figure so was not to be questioned. I was bullied by some authority figures in my life and NEVER defended.
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However, my nmom would never had gone in and defended me in anyway. The teacher was the authority figure so was not to be questioned. I was bullied by some authority figures in my life and NEVER defended.
I completely identify with this. This happened to me over and over by both parents as a child and as an adult. I actually was struggling with an incident today that happened almost 20 years ago. It came up because my mother is going to an annual party given by some people that we got to know at the same time in the same small group. It was a 4 year church program and after the four years my mother and a few others continued the group but did not include me. One of the group was a priest who was the original leader. His wife is having the party today - it is for his ministry (campus not church) and my mother has been a guest for many years but not me. It is so amazing that I still feel the pangs of that rejection - not so much from the hosts but from my mother.
Kelly - I am so glad that you will no longer be working with her. This will be an important beginning for you. While you work with her you are still trapped in that original enmeshment because you are dependent on her by virtue of being her employee. I pray freedom for you and swift insight to the way she has bound you to her.
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Well, at the job interview he told me he had lots of candidates...........he lifted up a stack of at least 10 applicants..............he asked me some of those "canned" questions that are like............."name a time when you made a wrong decision and had to admit to it and correct the problem..................and what was the "take away" from that?..............................Hate those kinds of questions. Anyway, apparently they will be able to weed out the bad ones and come up with a top three or something like that. So hopefully I will win out and get the job. And you know? This may sound weird but I kinda think I will be able to lose weight if I am not working with her - the reason I say that is that I feel trapped working with her and it is like prison and it is so futile that I am almost self defeating in everyway while I am there. If I get this job and am able to work at a job where nmom is NOT a factor, it will be like a freedom to be ME!!!
I feel pretty good about this and hope it works out = but just in case, I applied for another job that looked good to me. I am all about finding THE job for me where the situation will be better not worse. There have been a couple of jobs where the alternative of what I have would be worse - so I have stayed!!!!!
It will be a beautiful beginning for me!! I am psyched and cannot wait!! If I get this you will be able to feel my joy!!
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Dazed,
I think the biggest question for you is, "How is this affecting my life NOW." How can you use the information you have put together to make your life improve? Where do you have difficulties dealing with normal issues?
I think that figuring out the problems in our families and why we were so miserably unhappy must only be used to achieve the goal of becoming happy (heck, we deserve it :) ).
Also, dazed, I have not lost a parent, but are you suffering from some sort of regret... for what might have been... or for what you cannot change? For you, that is something you will need to let go. You have a hard task of acceptance, because you cannot even hope for change. The truth is, for many of us, the N parent is as good as dead to us. We also cannot hope for change. And it is very sad.
Lots of love Dazed.
Beth
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Well, the way I see it is we all get frustrated because there really is no winning with these people - dead OR alive!!!
And that is what I am trying to do, Beth. Trying to figure life out with or without nmom. My psychologist said - where ever you go - YOU will be there!!! That is crazy but true, isn't it. I have always been the type who thought.............If I get married or divorced or move into a new house or whatever, whatever........THEN my life will be ok............but it just doesn't work out that way. But I do know that I can deal with life if I am not attached at the hip with a self-absorbed, narcissistic, egomaniac, prideful and arrogant woman. Just the sight of her and her antics at work is enough to put me over the edge on a daily basis.
Today. I was talking with an employee about a personal matter. I was asking him about his divorce and what lead to it, etc. Well, my nmom seems to "stalk" me at work. When I am helping a customer or talking with people.................she just stands there and stares at me until I stop what I am doing and turn to look at her. So I was talking with this guy and she just stood there. After about five minutes of our continued conversation she said "I feel like I am eavesdropping..........." and I looked at her and said, "You are!!" Irritating!!! So there goes those revenge thoughts from another thread...............
NO I WILL ALWAYS BE POSITIVE. I WILL NOT SWELL ON THE NEGATIVE. I HAVE TOO MUCH NEGATIVE ENERGY AND NEED TO LOOK AT THE BRIGHT SIDE. I HAD A JOB INTERVIEW AND I THINK HE LIKED ME!!!!!
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HOORAY Kelly!!! I hope they snatch you up (and it's a dream job!!)
I always thought life would be better after high school... after college... etc. I finally got happier when I moved away from them and created my own life. I no longer felt lonely and sad... I felt hopeful. I no longer felt stuck and depressed. I ended up having other issues... but for me, getting away was the first step.
Not everyone can or wants to do it, I know. For me it was good and necessary.
You are right, Kelly... we are where we are. That's good to remember each day.
How are things with your husband and daughter?
Love, Beth
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NO I WILL ALWAYS BE POSITIVE. I WILL NOT SWELL ON THE NEGATIVE. I HAVE TOO MUCH NEGATIVE ENERGY AND NEED TO LOOK AT THE BRIGHT SIDE. I HAD A JOB INTERVIEW AND I THINK HE LIKED ME!!!!!
What have you done with the old Kelly? :D
Who is this bright positive growing stretching risking person, eh? :D ((((Kelly))))
You promise to hold on to your new inner sunshine no matter which way the job goes, okay?
(Try to just flow with each day, and keep following your new current...)
You are taking strides out and you are going to get there! Freedom's coming, Kelly....
Hops
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Well, I am trying to be optimistic!!
Remember the other thread where we were talking about meds and I basically said - "I'm not depressed so I don't need meds!" And someone else said - "I think you are in denial?" Well, I went to my doctor and she said I wasn't depressed but my life was so stressful that she was going to give me Lexapro to take the edge off..................." Well, I was so worried about becoming a zombie that I wasn't too gung ho on meds..........but I have been on them about a month and all it has really done to me is take the edge off!! I am a lot more optimistic!! I am very happy that I have had two job interviews in the past month..................one of the guys (who didn't hire me........) came into the store today!! I am so glad, too, because he saw us as busy as a retail store can be and me right in the middle of everything. So maybe if he has a job opening he'll think twice about NOT contacting me!!! Yea!!
But the new job is the one I want. It seems too perfect for me!! I hope. I pray!! I also took a sales assessment today. NOt that it really had anything to do with the job I interviewed for but................I've been in sales so I answered the best I could!!!
My daughter is sad because of the friend dying but they are moving on.
My husbands birthday is today so my guess is we'll go out to "eat." I'll eat and he'll drink!! But that's another story. Same story, second chapter!!!
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Hi All,
Sela, Gaining Strength, Bean, Kelly and Gratitude28-Beth: Thank you all for your responses.
Sorry I haven’t responded sooner, been sick with flu. I’m a bit foggy headed, so please excuse me if my posts are a bit spacey.
Sela:
Thank you for your empathetic and kind words.
Yes, your are right: The Jekyl & Hyde stuff was confusing and I’m a panic attack veteran. Landed in the emergency room 3 times due to panic attacks.
You’re right re: me trying to figure out if/how Nism, codependence & enmeshment are connected.
In the last few days, I’ve been reading “Facing Codependence” by Pia Mellody and, wow! I really see myself in the description of codependence. I’ve got a long road ahead to figure out what I am about.
Gaining Strength:
“I believe that you did not enmesh with your mother but it was your mother who enmeshed with you.”
That is a very interesting point, GS. I think you’re right.
“She most probably had not been nurtured and protected as a child, herself and therefore lacked the capacity to provide those essentials for you and instead tried to get love and nurturing from you." Right, again, GS. My mother’s parents (my maternal grandparents) sucked. Therefore, I don’t “blame” my mother for her short comings, but I feel sorry for her that she did not take any action to break the cycle. And, I suffered due to her inaction. When it came to mental health, my mother was very unconscious.
Yes, I think my mother also damaged me due to her love for me. My therapist said that I was unable to marry as long as my mother was alive. Now that she’s dead, maybe I’ll have a chance.
Bean:
Sometimes my mother empathized with my sister and me and sometimes not. My sister was the scapegoat, I was the peacemaker.
Wow, the baseball incident must have been very hard for you to process when you were a child. Yes, I see your point: Your parents made a stink about the 2nd base thing not because it was in your best interest, but because it was a reflection of them: Their family was entitled, special and better. I agree with Stormchild that the coach was an ass and should never have been in a position of authority over kids.
And yet, sometimes, Bean, your parents' Nistic attitude worked for you, but in the big picture, it did not: ie: bad example on handling conflict, which I really relate to. I grew up in a house where my parents often yelled at each other and when I asked why they were fighting, they’d say “we’re not fighting”. Maybe my parent’s relationship is one of the reasons why I’ve been afraid to get married.
Weirdest thing about my mother was that she was very kind to strangers, but could be very nasty to her family. I never understood that.
Kelly:
Thank you for connecting Nism, codependency and enmeshment.
Kelly, you took the words right out of my mouth:
“I didn't know any different. For years I just thought it was normal to have a parent who made me feel guilty, dependent, etc. I had no idea that it was wrong. For years I knew I was frustrated but didn't think it was not right. Now I KNOW it is wrong and am making strides to break the codendency and enmeshment.”
Good for you that you put up a boundary with your Mom about the job interview.
Kelly, I’m with you: My parents usually did not (if ever) defend me and often my Mother would take the position of an adversary and convince me that I was in the wrong.
Kelly and bean: I know you are both in the process of looking for jobs and I wish you all the best.
Gratitude28-Beth
Yes, you’re right: How is this affecting me now? The past is gone. But, I want to understand the past so that I can try to avoid avoidable mistakes in the future.
Wow, Gratitude28-Beth, your insight re: living/dead N parents is profound: If the N parent is alive, the offspring may have hope that the N parent will change. But, we all know that the likelihood of an N parent changing is very small. Yep, either way (N parent dead or alive), the offspring is screwed!!
Yep, as Kelly says, whether the N parent is dead or alive, we cannot win.
Again, thank you all for your insights.
Love and hugs to all of you,
Dazed
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Well, Dazed et al...............as I reread this thread something jumped out at me. One. Enmeshment comes in different forms. It is either pro or against. For me, it was against. I cannot imagine having my parents fight for me. I would think if that happened it would make me feel worthy somehow, that they loved me enough to confront my enemies. No. I have never been defended. Always the bad guy.
Two. Extreme enmeshment leads to codendency. Meaning................you cannot make a move without the approval of the one with whom you are codependent. Well, I'm not sure I am saying that right but for me, I could never, ever make a decision without my mom putting her stamp of approval on it. My ex was a womanizer who had over 25 affairs and didn't work and lied, cheated and stealed but my mom wouldn't "let" me divorce him. "hate the sin and not the sinner.........." Also, could it be that these types of people use religion to make themselves look and feel superior - "holier than thou" if you will..............? Anyway, it wasn't until some other objective person looked at me with dismay and said "Why are you still married to this jerk?" And I said, "What? You agree with me? Do you think I should divorce this person?" And he said, "Oh my God yes!!!! What are you waiting for?" And I finally had "permission" to divorce him and off I went to the lawyers office (much to my nmom's shagrin!!!)
Three. Does all this enmeshment and codependency come with the narcissistic territory? Can you live with an N and NOT be enmeshed and codependent??
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Three. Does all this enmeshment and codependency come with the narcissistic territory? Can you live with an N and NOT be enmeshed and codependent??
While I think anything is possible, I don't see how a person raised by N parents could be anything but enmeshed and co-dependent on some level or in some form. The child has known nothing else from birth onward. Something from outside has to come into the child's mind in order to even alert them to how different Ns are from average parents. There has to be some kind of awakening to even have a chance to get out of it, to even see it. Each of us came up with a unique way of dealing with it. But "it" was always there--we ate, drank and slept it. How could a child not be enmeshed and/or co-dependent? Especially if the parents either had poor social skills (as in my case) or only associated with "suppliers" who toed the party line. How would the child know any better? Plus, the child is in something of a powerless position and would have to learn how to survive life with the powerful N parents. The power imbalance certainly would limit the ways the child's personality could develop. Generally, everything would have to refer back to the N parents in some way.
That's my take on it....
I'm interested in the other possibilities, though. Maybe some of us learned early on somehow and were able to set boundaries in some way while still children.
PP
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I agree with you, PP.
As Write said about bi-polar on another thread, I am wondering if we might all put our heads together and look for the gifts, small or large, within that inheritance?
I think when they're not turned against ourselves, but for ourselves and a loving giving partner with a generous spirit, there could be:
a great capacity for intimacy
enormous loyalty
empathy
rich spiritual potential
compassion for animals, children, the vulnerable
creativity
Does that ring any chimes?
Hops
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Wow, great responses. Very thought provoking.
Kelly:
I can really relate to your divorce story. You figuratively and literally needed your Mom’s permission to divorce. You went against your intuition and complied with mom until a 3rd party validated your feelings and then you did what YOU wanted to do.
This must have been very painful for you. Thank goodness you divorced and freed yourself. That took guts.
There’s things that my mom talked me into doing/not doing and I look back today and say to myself “What an idiot I was to listen to my mom”.
To me, your story makes me feel that the worse thing about my enmeshment was that I was like a slave, zombie, robot to my mom. WHAT THE HECK WAS I THINKING???
I am not a push over, but when I think of how mom swayed me, manipulated me (and I’m not sure when or whether she did this consciously or unconsciously), I want to SCREAM!!! I feel robbed, feel like she took something from me without my permission.
This all makes me think that enmeshment (& its accompanying codependency) is like a drug. I was an enmeshment junkie.
I see what your saying about maybe enmeshment could have been an indication of your mom’s love for you if she defended you. However, at this point, I think that both positive and negative enmeshment is bad. Enmeshment steals one’s self and negates inner power. At this point, I believe it’s way healthier to just let someone (as my former therapist would say) work out and follow their own karma.
Regarding your third point, I agree with Pennyplant:
Pennyplant:
Bingo, Pennyplant!! I think you really hit it:
“I don't see how a person raised by N parents could be anything but enmeshed and co-dependent on some level or in some form. The child has known nothing else from birth onward.”
For me, you have basically answered the question I raised. Although I have not per se read any thing that definitely links enmeshment/codependency with Nism, I think one implies the other. That’s why I’ve been saying that I’m not sure that my parents were Ns, but I KNOW I was enmeshed and codependent with mom. Therefore, mom was probably an N.
“Something from outside has to come into the child's mind in order to even alert them to how different Ns are from average parents. “
Sad thing for me is that I NEVER realized that my parents were Ns until after they died and my therapist told me that I enmeshed with my mom.
“There has to be some kind of awakening to even have a chance to get out of it, to even see it. “ Amen, Pennyplant. Sadly, my wake up call has come late in life.
“Each of us came up with a unique way of dealing with it. But "it" was always there--we ate, drank and slept it. How could a child not be enmeshed and/or co-dependent? Especially if the parents either had poor social skills (as in my case) or only associated with "suppliers" who toed the party line. How would the child know any better? Plus, the child is in something of a powerless position and would have to learn how to survive life with the powerful N parents. The power imbalance certainly would limit the ways the child's personality could develop. Generally, everything would have to refer back to the N parents in some way.”
Pennyplant, I don’t mean to gush over you (nor bruise anyone else), but I think you have made a brilliant analysis.
“How could a child not be enmeshed and/or co-dependent?” YES! Thus, N parents can be a major cause, if not the sole cause, of enmeshed/codependent kids. Conversely, if kids are enmeshed/codependent, then parents MUST have been Ns: this is what I have been trying to figure out.
It was very difficult for me to set boundaries with my parents because they (as my therapist put it) “bulldozed” me.
Hops:
I love your positive thinking and optimism. Yes, these are wonderful traits, but could I have still possessed those traits without loosing my ‘self’, my core?
Thank you all.
w/ love,
dazed
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Wow! I just modified my prior post and replaced "Bean" with "Pennyplant". What a techy I am!!
Sorry Pennyplant!!
I directed part of my last post to Bean, but I meant you!!
Guess I dyslexically got confused with the letter "p" and thought it was "Penelope".
So sorry, Pennyplant. Again, don't mean to gush, but I think you really connected the dots for me and this means so much to me. Maybe in a way, you've set me free. Now I know, something was not 'right' in my upbringing and I no longer feel like an ungrateful brat for feeling this way.
Thank you so much,
with love,
dazed
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Hi Dazed,
I thing Bean got bingo too!
Yes, I think you can have the positive traits w/o losing your core self, but what I meant about the gift is that we turn it into a gift. For our present, and our future.
(I know what you mean about the learning coming late in life, and I understand why that brings grief. It won't be permanent grief.)
Once that process is through, then I think one can move fully into the present and experience the gifts. They won't any longer be wrapped in pain, they'll just be what they are.
love,
hops
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Oh Hops!
You're very comforting and your sentiments are beautiful.
Thank you for telling me it won't be permanent grief because now I feel like taking any possession my parents ever owned and throwing them out or selling them. I feel like I want no memories of my parents and want to forget about my past. I know my thinking is impossible and immature and I believe in years to come, I won't feel so ANGRY.
But, right now, I want NOTHING to do with the memories of my parents, I'm mad as hell at them. I did a childish thing today: I took all photos of my parents and put them in a drawer so I wouldn't have to look at them. I guess it's OK: it's all part of the process.
Once that process is through, then I think one can move fully into the present and experience the gifts. They won't any longer be wrapped in pain, they'll just be what they are.
Hops, I hope you're right. Thank you for your healing thoughts.
Love,
dazed
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Kelly: Three. Does all this enmeshment and codependency come with the narcissistic territory? Can you live with an N and NOT be enmeshed and codependent??
Good question. Let me take a shot at an answer
I believe it's very common for Codep to go along with Narcissistic territory. A Narcissistic person trains their children to "speak only when spoken to" "you don't want that chicken, dear. (turns to waiter) "she'll have the beef, thanks" "honey, you wouldn't want to embarass mommy, now would you?" "you don't want to play with sand...you might get dirty" (how do YOU know what I want to do? are YOU my brain, mother?) "we don't want the neighbors to think bad about us now...so we'll just tell them that daddy has a few beers once in a while...he's not actually getting drunk and having to be put to bed by his children every night, IS HE?"
It's all about forming this secret "support system" with each other. So, enmeshment in the system happens more often than not, although children end up reacting differently to it.
In my case, I never kept the family secrets secret. I TOLD people "my step-dad abuses us and makes us do work that I just can't seem to accomplish perfectly. Something doesn't feel right about my family. we need HELP!" Of course I caught FLACK for having EXPOSED things. I came to a point that i just didn't care what they thought though...I knew something was wrong and I knew my life was not normal, like some other kids. I was NOT KEEPING QUIET and still today I will NOT.
Enmeshment happens but it can be broken when the person you become enmeshed with is OUT of your life.
~Rm
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Weirdest thing about my mother was that she was very kind to strangers, but could be very nasty to her family. I never understood that.
Dazed, that is the very center of it.
She was kind to strangers because she wanted to impress them with what a lovely dear person she was;
she was savage to her family because she knew that she could get away with it, they weren't in a position to leave her.
Being sweet as honey to outsiders while being shockingly vicious to your near and dear is standard operating procedure for abusers of all types - emotional abusers, child abusers, spouse batterers.
Since most people are easily taken in by a charming performance, when the spouse or child attempts to get help or a hearing, the people they talk to have been pre-emptively fooled by the abuser and won't believe them.
There are few crueler forms of human folly on earth than the entrenched belief that "A can't possibly be abusing B because A is so polite to me." People rarely see through this, and abusers quite literally get away with murder as a result.
I never believe that a person is their 'image'. Images are just that: a deliberate creation. Don't believe what people say. Watch what people actually do, especially to people like waiters, waitresses, janitors, etc., or when they don't think anyone is looking.
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Stormchild,
Shivers ran through me when I read your post.
I remember when I was about 5 or 6 wondering to myself "why is mommy so nice to strangers and so mean to me?". Always been that way.
In the big picture, I am still shocked to think that my parents abused me. They did, but, up until my mother died, I always thought my parents were wonderful and I was lucky to have them.
I feel so mindf*cked (sorry for the language).
I feel like due to their abuse, which I never was aware of, they abandoned me. And, I was never aware of their abandonment.
Weird thing is, mom was very nice to janitors and waiters, but nasty to family members. Yeah, guess she felt she could get away with being nasty to the family because we couldn't leave. Yet, someone that she encountered for 30 minutes and never saw again, that's who she was nice to.
Thanks Sormchild.
Dazed
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Jodi in public was quiet most of the time, except with a chosen "few" Her greetings to people seemed forced and superficial to me. Behind closed doors she was bossy, whiny, subtly demanding, and it was clear that nobody dare disobey her desires or they'd suffer the silent treatment or being labeled.
Very different persona in public vs private, for sure!
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Weird thing is, mom was very nice to janitors and waiters, but nasty to family members. Yeah, guess she felt she could get away with being nasty to the family because we couldn't leave. Yet, someone that she encountered for 30 minutes and never saw again, that's who she was nice to.
Dazed
I think it's a great insight. I'd add that the nice behavior toward outsiders was necessary to get what she needed out of them (or might need in the future). The narcissistic motive requires a "nice" approach to these outsiders. You had already been trained in your role so such conditioning was not necessary.
I also have been conscious of a clear difference in the way my parents treat "others" and the family. My father definitely doesn't qualify as charming, but he does know the rudiments of positive social behavior with others. Let him get alone with a family member and the autistic/narcissist comes out in full force. The family members have been conditioned into this for 40+ years.
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Thanks reallyme and tjr100 for your insights.
These realizations leave me feeling deflated and depressed. I wish the realizations would give me a warm fuzzy feeling of enlightenment and freedom.
Enlightenment hurts, but ignorance is worse.
Thanks again,
dazed
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Hi Dazed,
I think the enlightenment really does hurt. Even worse than ignorance at first. It's like when the penny drops it feels like a copper locomotive crashing through your head.
But in time, this changes. It really does.
I think the biggest change is that while the shocking discoveries about Nism consumed almost my entire awareness for several years in a row....now, I think about so many other things.
Nism is full of layers and details and behaviors, it can feel like an endless trek. But after a while, I think we learn so much from the trip that we can afford to take detours, and pleasant explorations related to other things entirely.
My real belief is that over time, Nism gradually becomes a thing in our lives like very bad weather. Or the Dust Bowl.
Even people who lived through the Great Depression or the Dust Bowl don't focus on that every day.
Life itself just keeps calling, urging us around new corners.
If we never give up curiosity, there will always be something to look forward to.
The first couple years of N-shock are so draining, though. I really understand.
Hops
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Hops,
You are so sweet and life affirming.
"Life itself just keeps calling, urging us around new corners."
I know you're right. Life just keeps moving on and so must I.
Can't wait to get out of my shock stage.
Thanks for understanding.
dazed
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Hops: I think the biggest change is that while the shocking discoveries about Nism consumed almost my entire awareness for several years in a row....now, I think about so many other things.
This is so true. I don't think of Jodi very much like I used to, or hurt over her as deeply as I did once...she doesn't consume my thoughts or life...but if her face, name or a shared situation should come up, I simply pray and give her back to God, who is the only One who can help her.
~RM
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Here's how I see it. Whether a person has alcoholism or workaholism or any ism, a codependent relationship starts to exist. They coined that term for people who were dealing with alcoholics. You become part of the "dysfunctional family" and must follow the dysfunctional family rules. My mom is a workaholic but I think she was breeding her narcissistic self out of an attempt by her parents to keep her down "where she belonged." In her yearbook they described her as neither a bookworm or a social hound but a real swell girl to have around......................after she moved away from that little town she did everything she could possibly do to feed this inner beast to be the best, the most successful, the most beautiful......................and she was successful so everyone catered to that narcissism.......she has money so people flock to her not because they want to be her friend, but because they want a piece of her (boy, what a shallow place to be...................)
Anyway, as long as she looks good, it is all good. She never really gets vicious in a crowd - even family. I only get her venom when it is she and I alone in a room. The reason for that is I finally about five years ago drew a line in the sand and started to stand up for myself. See in public we are nicey nice but in private she goes for the jugular. Trying to get me to go back into my controlled box (which will never happen.....) She is also mean to people she considers inconsequential.........like some of our employees. My daughter's friends............
But now I have this larger than life persona. It took me so long to shake the control that I am like a roaring lion walking around just daring someone to give me crap. I pity the poor person who cuts in line in front of me. My doc told me that I exude negative energy and that is why I am reading the Battlefield of the Mind by Joyce Meyer to try to replace all that negative energy with positive. I just hope that the guy at my job interview didn't pick up on the negative energy - I tried to be positive. One of my newer employees told me I was totally intimidating until he got to know me - not what I try to do but I guess that is how it comes off.
Dazed = I have to tell you that I didn't break free until I was 42 and five years later I am still in the process of breaking free. In a way I am jealous of you because your parents are gone and you don't have to deal with them...........but you do have to go through the grief process..................been there, done that!!!
This group helps. I have had people tell me I am in denial. I have had lots of "atta girls!!"
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My doc told me that I exude negative energy and that is why I am reading the Battlefield of the Mind by Joyce Meyer to try to replace all that negative energy with positive.
What a wonderful example of how a person who is absolutely destined to heal behaves.
(If not this job, there will be another success soon, Kelly. You're just warming up!)
ROARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
hugs,
Hops
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Roar all over the place!! I am getting worried. I SO want to have a second interview for this job................I went back to the website and the job isn't posted anymore. Could that mean they filled it or they have enough people applying for the job that they know one of us will get it. OR have they already hired someone and I am not that person?? Boo Hoo!! I want this job sooooooo much!!!
Today I was praying that God's will for my life and our business be done!! i HATE to get in the way so I need to back off and allow God to take the lead in my life!! But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE I just want a second interview!!!!!
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Hey Roarrrrry,
Please promise that if it doesn't work out for this job (when that happens, you never know why really and I hate seeing people beat themselves up?)...you promise promise promise NOT TO TAKE IT PERSONALLY. Okay
Remember, if you get it...it's just a decision they made. About what they wanted or fantasized about for the new person. But if you don't, it is just a different decision they made. It's NOT about you or your worth, it's just a combination of factors that you'll never know the detals of...none of us do...I've been certain I've nailed jobs and not gotten them, thought I didn't have a chance and gotten one, and come in second for positions I really wanted....-more times than I can describe!
I too am really hoping for you that you get this one, and you may! My fingers and toes are crossed.
I just don't want your huge hopes and expectations to set you up for crushing disappointment.
If you get it that's good, you'll be glad and learn.
If you don't, you'll be sad and learn.
As long as you hold onto the "learn" part, you'll be great either way. Positive Kelly!
I read somewhere that it's good to look at every single interview for any job as a very good thing, whether it pans out or not. Because it's all PRACTICE for the interview and job combination that do wind up working out.
Made sense to me, anyway.
(I'm not predicting either way hon. Just don't want you to set yourself up by hoping too hard.)
Dunno why I'm feeling so alert to this except that I have looked for jobs for a year (and had a decade of struggles with lots of unemployment, etc.)
hugs,
Hops
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Kelly,
“You become part of the "dysfunctional family" and must follow the dysfunctional family rules.” Yup, totally agree.
“My mom is a workaholic but I think she was breeding her narcissistic self out of an attempt by her parents to keep her down "where she belonged." Kelly, mine too! My maternal grandparents were, MUCH more N than my parents. This made me feel sorry for my mom and because I felt sorry for her and didn’t want her to suffer her pain, I enabled her.
“See in public we are nicey nice but in private she goes for the jugular.” Same with me.
“One of my newer employees told me I was totally intimidating until he got to know me - not what I try to do but I guess that is how it comes off.” Kelly, I have heard people say this about me too and now I think it’s because we were defending ourselves against our Nmoms for so long, we didn’t want anyone to crap on us.
“In a way I am jealous of you because your parents are gone and you don't have to deal with them...........but you do have to go through the grief process..................been there, done that!!!”
Kelly, irony of irony: truth is, for me at least, is that death does not sever the effects of Nism. Yes, due to death, I no longer have to battle my parents, but I am battling the effects of their Nism. Just part of their legacy.
Of, Kelly, I just read about the job. Yes, give it up to God. I used to laugh at people who said that, but now I really understand it.
Yes, I love what Hops said: In case it doesn’t work out, don’t take it personally. I know you really want this job.
But Kelly, I know whatever comes down the road, you will work it out. Bestest of luck to you.
Dazed
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OK, Dazed...........I guess we have a similar upbringing...........................In some ways I think I will be relieved when my parents pass but then I realize when it really happens, relief won't be the emotion. I am sure there will be so much regret because I have tried, tried, tried, tried to make my mom validate me!! In a way I tried to control her and it just doesn't work - we are so push.me.pull.you type people - back and forth, back and forth...............
I have described it as being totally bogged down with this sticky film all over my body and I am trying to get loose and I am trying desperately to get all the goo off of me - that is how I feel about this over bearing feeling my nmom gives me......................almost how a rape victim tries to wash the rape off.......
And Hops.............you are so good for me. You keep cheering me on no matter how long the process takes and no matter what my state of mind!! Thanks!!!
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Kelly,
"I am sure there will be so much regret because I have tried, tried, tried, tried to make my mom validate me!! In a way I tried to control her and it just doesn't work - we are so push.me.pull.you type people - back and forth, back and forth..............."
You are absolutely right. I now realize that for my entire life, I also tried to get my mother to validate me, to the point that I was controlling her and it never worked. Jeez, I'm just repeating your words. AAHHH!!!
I know about that goo. I still have it on me.
dazed
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Validation is something I don't predict I'll ever get, however, I am trying and trying and trying to get rid of that sticky do all over my body!!! It takes a lot of perseverence to keep moving forward. I find myself being triggered when I least expect it!! The last few days have been good because nmom has been backing off.............I think she is a bit overwhelmed so it is easier for her to back off........or who knows? Maybe she is in the midst of plotting against me...................never know. She may be in the midst of trying to bless me but I won't hold my breath on that one!
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Maybe she is in the midst of plotting against me...................never know. She may be in the midst of trying to bless me but I won't hold my breath on that one!
Sounds like a familiar thought that goes through my brain too.
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I too used to desire validation for so many years from my mom until I began to see her as a person who too needed validation and it wasnt from me. However when I saw her in a different light and began to just be there for her that day came finally for her to tell me "I know I wasnt a good mom to you, but I am proud of who you've become." Talk about "shock and awe!" It did take me back a bit and some adjusting and allowing her enter my heart again as a mom not as someone in need. Anyway all things are possible is what I say
Laterz
Free
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freeme2live,
That is wonderful about how your mother eventually validated you, however, many of the people here have had to or have to come to grips that they may NEVER hear those words from their N "parent." Some self-absorbed people never come a place in their brain, where they are able to grasp the damage they have done.
That is just how it is sometimes, sad though it may seem. I don't think I will ever hear those words being spoken and MEANT SINCERELY by the dysfunctional people in my life, but hey, only GOD knows my future. If it's in His plan, it will happen.
~RM
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ReallyMe and Moonlight,
Maybe I am an optimist, although I have been through much, inside I've tried to see the good in others as I would have wanted myself to be seen. With my mom I had to bury feelings because they werent allowed so as an adult had to do "damage control" like many here are doing.
RM said "Some self-absorbed people never come a place in their brain, where they are able to grasp the damage they have done." I do agree there has been damage but it is up to me to work through that things and try not to allow that person to control my life. Even though my mom validated me that wasnt all that long ago. It took me a few months to adjust to that because I had set up emotional boundaries from years of verbal and emotional abuse. Tearing those down was very gradual process. I never believed my mom was "self absorbed" but was a person with issues just following the patterns from her own alcoholic father who seldom cared about his own family and was verbally and physically abusive. I will say I do agree that most people who are n's dont realise the damage, as its like looking down from a hill after math of a severe storm, sometimes the damage just cannot be seen from just one angle. But I would never call my parents "self absorbed" they cared for us as best they could with from where they were, and did their best. All in all it is still up to me to do "damage" control and mull through the muck of cleaning up. It is time consumming, and as I hear it "time does heal all wounds." Ok so the cliche isnt exactly apprapoe here but I'd say that healing does take time, as we try to replace the bad with good.
Laterz gatorz
Free
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free2b, I'm happy for ya but that's not my reality nor everyone else's.
At this point, I'm willing to admit, that when it comes to some things, I'm VERY pessimistic. I dared to trust someone again, whom, honestly if you had met her, you'd never believe she could have done all the things I said she did, and now she is gone. Then again, as I always said, "is she GONE or did she never EXIST?" Did I spend almost 2 years of my life with someone's FACADE? That is the way I look at things now...Jodi created and lives through an IMAGE of a person so that the world will adore her and she will appear to be favored by God. What was really there when I got "up close and personal" was an insecure, spoiled, angry child, whom, if she didn't get her own way, was going to make everyone's life MISERABLE! My brain still has trouble computing that what I experienced, yes, this person really DID behave the way I experienced behind closed doors. I really DID experience what it would be like to be the child in a dysfunctional ministry family.
At this point, I'm trying to get back to the place of being a person who lived my life standing on faith completely. I laid all that down to be with Jodi and her family, in hopes that we'd travel and minister together forever. Now, I'm finding that last little part of ME again...the spiritual, the strong, the bold part, and also letting God add some love and compassion and grace with it.
That is my reality, as I told you, but I'm glad yours turned out well in the end.
~ReallyME, L
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RM - My husband bless his heart has always told me and I know he is right that when in ANY rellationship you are taking a risk to being open and exposed to that person(s). I agree with him as recently I too had been close with soneone for years and this past year have been well lets say - "Stiff armed" out of the relationship simply over a innocent mistake, and just one did me in. I am not going to diss that person for what happened, and not planning on speculating why exactly things did go the way they went.(Although that memory will always haunt me) but we have to move on. I realised myself I'd love "justice" at one point but returned to reality and just pray one day just maybe I will be exhonerated. I am not bringing fault to myself for thinking in that way. However I've said before that in order to move on we have to make way for new friendships, and chock the one off as one where you learned from the friendship. I know in the bible there is a verse I've gone back to (if anyone here isnt a believer in the bible I mean no disrespect in quoting from it) and I will just paraphrase "What may have been meant for evil God has meant for good." So if I am at this moment looking at a bad situation and wanting to see the good - then YES I AM! People come and go but I want to look to the things that are eternal, not wanting to live in the past of "what could have been" I'd desire to be "free" of the shackles of painful memories and make a difference in someone elses life. Know what I mean? I am not a born philosopher although I've done my fair share of thinking .. lol but I do want to see good in others and never want them to see it in me!
KaChing Kaching"
my 2 cents
Free
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freeme2
and not planning on speculating why exactly things did go the way they went.
and I will say it again, that people who aren't here to speculate the "why" of things, will feel very out of place on this board. That is what we DO here and it is what I plan to continue to do as long as I remain here.
I will not stay silent anymore.
~RM
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Well thanks for the permission CB. I will be doing that the rest of my life, since I have a fascination with understanding these people and other dysfunctional folks, in order to protect vulnerable people from being sucked into their webs.
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Well, back to Moon's comment about Ns not being able to feel intimacy........I think I get that. My mom wants relationships on her terms................that is all nicey-nice, perfect (or at least the illusion of perfection......) I always felt like our kitchen was even false.................for instance, all the containers for flour, sugar and such never had those things in them........they might have a flower arrangement poking out of them. There is never any "intimate" conversation. If we get down to brass tacks, it usually gets into a defensive argument because we can't say what we really mean or really feel.................that is reserved for her to complain about others but never EVER say she does anything wrong (and she does - over and over......)
I just can't get over the feeling of really having no one.................