Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: surf14 on February 29, 2004, 12:59:59 AM
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I am the daughter of an emotionally and physically abusive mother; I have spent the majority of my life living as geographically far away from her as possible and because of this I have been able to attain a good amount of mental health. The problem is that she, several years ago, inherited her mother's fortune and money is a terrible weapon for a narcissist to wield. I made my choice years ago (left to pursue my own life and health, she never forgave me as my purpose supposedly was to exist as a moon orbiting her earth) knowing the money would be a future issue. I am considering 'letting go' for good in light of a recent conversation with her where she once again reverted to disloyal and cruel discourse. I can let go of any claim I may have to the money although it is hard as I am 52 and am tired from having struggled in that abusive home and struggled to raise my two daughters after my N husband made clear that he loved them but wanted no financial responsiblity for them. I can't sell out now for the money any more than I ever could and my mother is furious to discover this. I always loved my mother despite the heartache but if I release her I have decided for my own peace of mind that it will be done with compassion and a regard for her fragility rather than with anger. If i nail her and give her a painful reflection back I am afraid we will be stuck together for all time in an angry dance in time and I would like to be done with her forever and want never to see her again, either in heaven or in the next lifetime. Thanks for checking this posting out.
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I am confused. I don't think letting go of your mom (not sure what that means) is the same as relinquishing claims on her estate.
bunny
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Hi Guest, here's the issue. My Mom uses money as a weapon and the unspoken rules are that she is to be the center of attention and is not to be even remotely criticized or held to any standard of behavior in any way. I have had very limited contact with over the past 25 years because she could not refrain from splitting, criticizing and manipulating, the usual stuff. when she would do these things I would distance even more since I wasn't allowed to have a voice or say anything to protect myself; this she sees as sheer abandonment. She seems always to want a relationship but when it comes down to it she resorts to the age-old defenses which alienate me. Two weeks ago after our phone conversation where she gleefully went for the juggular when I was talking about my frustration with my XN husband and how I had not been able to turn his destructive behavior in the relationship she took a gleeful breath and jumped in with her sword accusing me of 'enabling' him in the marriage. Now I don't even know if she really nows what enabling is but the peasure with which she dove at me to bring me down several pegs was unmistakable. Now enabling I did not do and divorse is a devastating thing and you don't go into someone els's wound and make sport of their pain. So I sent her a gentle e-mail saying that this had hurt my feelings as I had done everything I could to turn him and had been unsuccessful. (she may recognized that he is a bit too much like her and therefore is sympathetic to him) She got furious and sent me back an e-mail in huge bold black letters without a greeting or a goodbye saying a one liner alluding to denial; I haven't heard from her since. I know her very well and what this means is that if I wantttocontinue the relationship I will have to crawl to regain her approval; if I do not do this she will not seek me out and say 'lets talk' or anything reasonable like that. What she will do is send me a haughty e-mail and tell me she has cut me out of the will; she uses her money as power and as a fortress to protect her from any feedback or having to take any repsonsibility in the relationship. The standoff will probably go on until Mother's Day which will be the day of truth. If I don't acknowledge that day by sending her flowers or something she will assuredly cut me off and yet I can hardly face drawing her closer at Mother's Day and perpetuating the lie yet again. Yet, I hate to hurt her ( I know, even tho my feelings don't matter at all) and she has such a difficult time giving even if I continued to take her abuse and conduct a pretend relationship with her its questionable what she would actually be willing to will me in the end anyhow. Its like she keeps waiting for me to change and I keep waiting for her to change and we are both aware at this point that niether is going to change so why continue. I'm getting a little old for this kind of game but hoped we could at least have an amicable relationship so when she does pass on there is closure there. I am sure tho that when she writes me her vile follow up e-mail cutting me off that if i simply wish her well and say good bye that I will gain closure. In a pastpost Guest you talked of how difficult it is to cut off from a mother; yes it is even if they are cruel and uunloving. Thicht Nhat Hahn: "suffering nourishes compassion".
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I don't know if this helps surf14 but so much of what you express is well, 'traditional' for ACONs - so you're not alone in this.
We know how cruel they are and yet we fear 'hurting' them. We clearly see them as vulnerable even tho they are so destructive. We are made powerless as well as voiceless by their vulnerability - or is it their clever manipulation to make themselves appear so vulnerable. As vulnerable as a Brown Bear, I think!!!
But I think we ACONs are also very vulnerable to 'being wrong', being 'in the wrong' and coping with criticism of any kind. And for good reason after the way we were brought up to - always wrong, but always expected to always be perfect in all that we do.
But we're not perfect and THAT'S OK!!
The other side of the coin is the 'grain of truth' syndrome. There's always enough 'truth' for any criticism to find a home in our heart and create panic that we have indeed got is ALL wrong, that we are TOTALLY at fault, that we are MISERABLE wrecks worth nothing on this earth.
Does that seem familiar???
I think the only way to handle it is to let it go! Accept the merest tiniest speck of 'truth' in what she says - don't bother to argue with her and find a 'yeah, yeah' attitude. Should frustrate the hell out of her! :twisted:
Difficult to do, of course.
And, I hope you will forgive my presumption, (you will see that my reason for saying this is that I've thought the same thoughts) - I wonder how much the threat of being 'cut out of her will' is in your mind rather in her reality.
I know my father lived frugally because he intended me to have something after he had gone but I feared my mother would take it all away from me if I didn't 'behave'! It was only when I let go of wanting anything at all from her that I stopped fearing her power over me.
It's true that I feared my mother's impact on me more than I feared the loss of the money (so perhaps it made it easier for me to give it up!!). It's more than possible that my mother would like to threaten me with it as yet one more weapon in her arsenal. But if I truly don't care and don't need the money (whether I think I do or not), then it's not a weapon any more.
We ACONs have to work on removing the hooks deep within us - no hooks, no room for them to hang their coat!! There's enough abundance in the world for there to be plenty for all of us elsewhere in the world - we don't need to get what we need from our mothers!!! There's a famous phrase for handling this kind of situation : Who's NEXT! (In other word, look around you for what you need, not just in one direction of lack).
Kind thoughts
R
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Dear Rosencrantz; I continue to be moved by the heartfelt and understanding people like your self who particiate on this forum. When I first entered this forum several days ago I told a very close friend of mine that the discourse was so meaningful and also sad that it would break your heart. Its so clear that ACON's understand each other's experiences so well because they all seem so similar and we have all experienced so much pain. I have built my 'family of joy' as I like to refer to it here in Hawaii and I know I don't need her in my life but my anxiety on experiencing or initiating cutoff, combined with my reluctance to induce pain in her I recognize as signs of enmeshment. If ONLY she could just give me an ounce of respect so we didn't have to go to complete estrangement. It is such a needless tradedy for everyone. In terms of the estate, thanks for suggesting it may be more in my mind than hers that she would do this but she will; its the only source of power she feels she has and she has no qualms about exercising it. Again, N's have strange relationships to money. Thanks again.
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P.S. I am afraid if I go' yeah yeah' to her lies that I am reinforcing the voicelessness that she has always tried to enforce on me. I mean, if I did that wouldn't I be enabling HER? It may be time for a change.
Surf14
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Surf14 Hi and welcome.
I've been reading your posts and had a few thoughts I'd like to share with you.
First, if you wanted to you can go through memberlist here. There's a name 'Pheonix' who has contributed a lot and some of her story is somewhat like yours and many responses she's had are very insightful and hopefully that may offer some insights and food for thought.
The following are my thoughts on untangling are not requiring you to answer me but just food for thought too.
How would you relate to your mother now if there was no money or inheritance in the picture at all. If we can eliminate the whole financial issue and remove the whole money side from the scene momentarily, and all you had with her and could get from her was the emotional side that you're experiencing and receiving and have been participating in what would you do? How would you relate to her?
I can understand a little about the power she's weilding. And if you feel the money angle does have some relevance to you this is perfectly normal and okay. It doesn't in any way make you insincere or not loving. Inheritances that I've received have played a vital role in my and my family's quality of life and I've been so grateful.
It's the pain you feel when someone has physically and emotionally abused in your early years. It's perfectly reasonable to feel that they owe you something for what they've taken away. The feelings do get very tangled. This also doesn't make you less sincere.
But we don't always get what we want because sometimes others and ourselves also are completely unwilling to change. Imagine that your mother after all this anxiety she's caused you, and power that's she's weilded in your life, and all your attempts to explain and reconcile, she just up and left her wealth to charity and not to you. What would you wish you had done then?
I suppose it comes down to seeing where we want to be, and where we want to go, and who we want to become. I wrote and made a type of 'Victim Impact Statement' to my N parent which I put a tremendous amount of thought into. I didn't realise at the time what I was doing but I just knew I had to do it. In writing it out, by correcting and re-expressing I healed a lot, and a lot of closure if not all happened inside me. It resulted in us never having anything to do with each other again which was their choice because I finished it by stating what I would or wouldn't tolerate in future contact. This right that I demanded has never been violated. I live in complete peace with this aspect of my life and I have closure. I hope this helps in some way.
All the best, guest.
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I give you a sad pat on the shoulder surf14 -
If ONLY she could just give me an ounce of respect
- if she's the full NPD, she just can't, she just doesn't know how. The thing I grappled with is that we just don't exist for them - they'll never 'get it'. If you can get into, through and over that whole concept, you'll feel a lot better but it's a tough row to hoe.
Take care
R
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Hi Surf14
My mother is not as N as yours, but she still held that power over me (also over distance). The point came eventually where I did an 'internal' cut-off as well and that made the difference. I have a decent relationship with her now, because she no longer has any hold over me. There were several reasons how I reached that 'point'; I decided that I was not responsible for her happiness, I was not going to feel guilty for not supplying that happiness and I didn't need her approval for anything.
I find myself doing the 'yeah, yeah', naturally as the things that used to upset me now just fly over my head. It sounds doubtful whether your mother has it in her to show you any respect. The important thing for you is to keep going until you find that point where she no longer pushes your buttons. After that, who knows, you may be able to have a kind of relationship with her.
Take care of yourself for a change, not her.
Karin.
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Thanks very much Guest, Rosencrantz and Karin for your replies. Its funny Guest but of course you are right about asking myself the question as to how I would feel if there were no money in the picture at all to muddle things up; in fact I asked my self that very question earlier today and am so glad you also voiced that. The answer I came up with was that at this point in my life, after all I've been through, I would just fade away from my mohter as I certainly don't need this in my life at all; and yes Karin I was thinking too that its time to take care of myself now, if for no other reason than that the girls rely on me less, I am tired and I have fewer problems to take care of these days. I am understanding this disorder Rosencrantz, much more clearly as I read how N's are unable to empathize and need so deperately to feel OK and visible that they will take their children down first without a qualm to accomplish this. Sometimes lately I just feel sad for my mom and my sisters (one is an alcoholic borderline PD and the other is sad and beholden) that we had to experience this to this extent in this lifetime and then alternately I know this has made me more compassionate and sensitive to others, which is a good thing. Just sometimes wish things had been different. I don't feel she owes me the money because of what she put me through but if you have money I feel you share it with your children because you love and nurture them; that's exactly whats missing here. Thanks much all and aloha.
Surf14
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Two weeks ago after our phone conversation where she gleefully went for the juggular when I was talking about my frustration with my XN husband and how I had not been able to turn his destructive behavior in the relationship she took a gleeful breath and jumped in with her sword accusing me of 'enabling' him in the marriage.
So I sent her a gentle e-mail saying that this had hurt my feelings as I had done everything I could to turn him and had been unsuccessful.
What she will do is send me a haughty e-mail and tell me she has cut me out of the will; she uses her money as power and as a fortress to protect her from any feedback or having to take any repsonsibility in the relationship. The standoff will probably go on until Mother's Day which will be the day of truth. If I don't acknowledge that day by sending her flowers or something she will assuredly cut me off and yet I can hardly face drawing her closer at Mother's Day and perpetuating the lie yet again.
Okay. Here is what I think, for what it's worth...
(1) With a narcissist like her, do not confide your personal problems, *especially* marital ones. Keep all conversations superficial and shallow. It's the only way, believe me.
(2) You don't know for certain that she'll cut you out of her will. Nor do you know whether she will go to an attorney and do it. Nor do you know whether you're in her will to begin with. I'd disregard the whole will business.
(3) You haven't yet tested a relationship with your mother where you keep things shallow and don't confide in her. You might want to try such a relationship before cutting her off completely. If you want to send her flowers on Mother's Day, go ahead. It's just a gesture and doesn't mean you approve of her behavior.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny for your input; I have definately come to the conclusion as well that I must not talk to my mother about anything of substance. I'm afraid if I give her flowers for Mother's Day I will be reinforcing her behavior and once again she will not need to take responsibility to just be "nice" or civil to me. As usual then I will be the one that is expected to do all the 'work' while she is free to treat her children in a bullying and abusive fashion with no consequences for this behavior and no need on her part to address making amends when she acts abusively. I know about her legal will and that it exists but I have not seen it for myself; I have come to the coclusion that it is worth letting go if for no other reason than that she has proved time and again that she cannot give. (on a visit here to Hawaii three years ago I had asked her to consider when we went shopping to ask my girls if they would like a little something, I didn't want to be embarrassed or have her embarrass herself by her miserliness; all the way down the mall she kept saying "I can't do this, I just don't know how to do this." I almost told her to forget it if buying a tee shirt for her grandaughter was such a major trauma. I was appalled!) Anyhow, I feel that regaining voice means not taking responsibilty for her cruel ways but rather giving her the space to decide if she cares enough to be responsible for her behavior. Aloha
PS: several months ago she was going thru her things and asked me if there was anything I'd like after she passed on. Three times I referenced something that I thought would be a family keepsake to treasure and all three times after I identified the object she said "no" and then gave an excuse as to why she wouldn't give it like , "oh, that's hard to mail" or such like this. Now, one knows when someonoe is dangling a carrot out there and when one is told to reach for it and it is consistantly pulled back that there is a game going down. It hurt my feelings and I wanted to tell her that its because of things like this that we get into trouble in our relationship but I knew she couldn't, or wouldn't handle the feedback. So, I sucked it up as usual but when she kept asking again for what I wanted I just told her that it really came down to what she wanted to give. I never heard about this again.
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surf,
Your mother is extremely, *extremely* infantile. She truly has no idea how to be an adult. She's probably incapable of adult thinking. If you realize that she is a small child who cannot develop any further, you may be able to have a relationship with her (if you choose). It's apparently no great loss if you cut her loose but I've found that mothers have a powerful place in our psyche and it's hard to get rid of them.
bunny
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Hi Surf14,
The carrot thing, UGH!
When I read similar stories on the board, I think of the Peanuts cartoon strip with Charlie Brown always being talked into trying to kick the football by Lucy. Lucy ALWAYS says she will be good this time and will really hold the football in place. Charlie Brown ALWAYS falls for it. Lucy ALWAYS pulls the ball away at the last second and CB ALWAYS falls on his butt. Lucy ALWAYS laughs.
This same joke happened year after year when football season started. I always hated this joke and didn't know why. Just thought Lucy was mean and Charlie was stupid for believing again. (I'm not saying you're stupid). But I really hate how some mean people take advantage of our good, trusting nature. If we're not the defective ones, how come we get hurt? :(
I now realize that Lucy has a personality disorder. :shock: :D Seeker
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Yes Bunny, you are exactly right; she is very infantile and has no idea how to behave as an adult. That poses a real dilemma for her kids in terms of carrying on a relationship with her. My younger siister, who lives geographically within five miles from her and who has born the brunt of all this, seems to understand this stuff on a gut level although she has been estranged from my mother from time to time as well. Because I have not, thankfully, been back there to interact much over the years the hurtful episodes are very hurtful; I guess I haven't had a chance to develop coping mechanisms to deal with it. So when she does stuff like this we're always back to square 1; I distance myself in order to protect myself and she considers this abandonment which she cannot forgive. Its an endless dance! But you are right; I would have to radically alter my expectations of her behavior and character in order to conduct a superficial relationship with her; then again if I do that I feel like I just accomodate her perception of reality and perpetuate the lie that she is the 'Queen Mother" without giving her the chance to take responsibility for herself. (but we know she will probably never change) Sticky stuff and confusing. I have to think about this more. Thanks.
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To Seeker,
Yes, when there is a recurring pattern in life and we continue unawares going for the same bait one has to wonder why the eyes aren't open. In the case of 'mother' I don't know if others can relate to this but it seems so basic that a mother would love and nurture her kid that the kid (me) keeps expecting that she has finally understood and is acting like a mom should. Like I say, I haven't been back there nor have I seen her much for 25 years (I couldn't bear to) so have built a healthy life and healthy friends here where I live. I seem to forget her basic character and am always brought up short when the N rears its reproachable head. Aloha
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When my father died last year, I mentioned to my mother that I was very keen to have a cutting from the crab apple tree in the front garden to plant and grow in my own.
I guess you can understand the thoughts and feelings behind that wish. You may not know exactly what they are but you'll have a feel for what that's about.
My mother - (you need to understand that she won't have anything done to the house which is practically falling down and won't pay anyone to do anything...) suddenly prioritised the garden and arranged for the tree to be chopped down.
:shock:
Now, if I said anything about this to anyone they'd say I was being paranoid (BTW my mother hasn't told me - the social worker told me - she didn't know the history, it was just a statement of fact to her - she admired the fact that she'd actually got something done!!!). When I got off the phone from the social worker, I smply stated it as a fact to my husband in much the same way as the social worker had - and his face was a picture - and I said "You know, don't you". HE knew and he's not a sentimental kind and it wasn't his memory or his father and I hadn't made a big deal of it to him (I think I'd mentioned it to both of them when we were in the garden just before the funeral) - and HE knew!!! He KNEW!!!
And I bet YOU know, too!!! You know what that's all about. What the sub-text is and what she meant by it.
I've never expressed this before, but here goes : HEARTLESS BITCH!!!
There is another side of me which can step into her shoes and understand that it probably wasn't her intention to be a heartless bitch - you don't call a child who's had nothing and can't let go of anything a heartless bitch, do you. But it's such a million miles away from how I experience her and what it does to me (all of us ACONs). To her it wasn't a terrible thing - she would probably feel ashamed if she ever dared to recognise what she did - and it's knowing that that makes us feel that they are vulnerable and we have to be careful around them.
But WE HAVE FEELINGS TOO and if WE don't look after our interests, look after ourselves, there sure as hell ain't anybody else doing so. Therefore, look out for your own interests first - don't expect THEM to.
Sad, but true.
R
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I would have to radically alter my expectations of her behavior and character in order to conduct a superficial relationship with her; then again if I do that I feel like I just accomodate her perception of reality and perpetuate the lie that she is the 'Queen Mother" without giving her the chance to take responsibility for herself. (but we know she will probably never change)
I don't think adapting to your mother's limitations is giving in to her. It's more like changing the current strategy which doesn't work. You're the one who is more healthy, so unfortunately the burden of adult behavior falls on you. This is how I manage with my mother, and it's not easy. I'd prefer her to be more grownup but she simply isn't.
bunny
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Rozencrantz; I
I feel so bad as I read about the tree; I recognized it immediately for what it was and that was unforgiveably cruel of your Mom. Her behavior is consistant though with the disorder and they don't appear to think about what their behavior signifies; this is where the blinders come in and they seem to be patently stupid. How were you able to refrain from confronting her?
Bunny, you've reframed the problem and the solution; I guess for me to be able to view her behavior from that perspective I would have to shrink her down from "mother " in my mind to "monster brat" and I would go on limiting interaction with her because how unpleasant is that to have to deal with on a consistant basis? Bunny, when your mom acts poorly and says cruel things are you able to get around having your feelings hurt anymore by having an accurate sensse of where her limitaitons are and where she is stuck developmentally? Its been good to talk with people who've had the same experiences as those on this forum; helps you wade through years of questiions and turmoil previously understood by only the closest of friends.
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Bunny, when your mom acts poorly and says cruel things are you able to get around having your feelings hurt anymore by having an accurate sense of where her limitaitons are and where she is stuck developmentally?
My feelings still get hurt but the pain doesn't persist as long. I'm in therapy so I have someone to talk to about her.
bunny
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You are all probably going to think I am a sell-out. And I feel like I am. Anyway, Hello, everyone, ... I am fairly new to this forum.
The problem is this: First of all, I didn't know anything about N until about 10 days ago, when I got a book out of the public library called **Trapped in the Mirror.** It's for families of N's trying to find themselves and heal themselves. It's written by the daugher of an N, who is also a therapist. I notice this book has been mentioned here on the Forum, too.
I'd read some of Vaknin's stuff a while back, but it didn't quite "sit" with what I needed; but this book did.
Anyway, my parents, especially my dad, was determined never to let me "get away" from him. Like surf14 says, my mother and he -- but especially he -- used money as a weapon, or a way to tie me to them. I was essentially forcibly prevented from growing up, from learning any life skills to take care of myself; I was kept helpless in a way.
In addition to this, I was emotionally, verbally, and physically abused by him, and (sound familiar?) not protected by my cool, and emotionally neglectful mother. There was terrible turmoil in my family of 2 parents and 3 siblings. I am the oldest, brother is next and then my younger sister.
I tried moving thousands of miles away from Mother and Daddy, but they would follow me and move, too, to live nearby.
My parents grew up with money; then their families lost money in the Great Depression. When they grew up, they got professional jobs (Daddy was a corporation attorney, Mother a public school teacher) and when they had put me through college by age 21 (my brother is self-educated and my sister didn't finish college till her 40s) my parents began to pile up money.
I had always had mood disorders, and of course this made me dependent on Daddy's money. He controlled the money.
I tried and tried to support myself, but had many nervous breakdowns, but was never hospitalized because my (3) husbands were all crazy, too, and between my crazy family and theirs, I guess nobody wanted the various dirty linens exposed, so I was kept out of hospital? Who really knows.
I mostly worked; I had a lot of different sorts of jobs, but my main ones were teaching and office work. I was good at both types of work. But socially on the job, was terrified when I was at work. I usually had conflict with one or two people at work, and got along very well with everyone else.
Another major problem was that I did not have the stamina to do the work. I have always tired easily. Even in high school, I went to a doctor about exhaustion. He did not know what was wrong. This seems to be a familial problem. My great aunt had exhaustion. And my brother has it,although he is a physical tower of strength, and home builder with his own hands. He has to work for himself because he can't work for anyone else. He did work for the Feds for about 15 years and he says it "about killed him."
I finally ended up working for myself for 19 years, and it was much better, but I was not able to support myself because I could only work 3 days a week in student-contact (i.e. paid hours). The rest of the time I was either resting or planning. When I got my third divorce, I went back to work and got fired, fired, fired because by then I was no longer young and cute, and could not keep up with the work pace.
In the earlier years, I DID try to get counseling, but in those days family counseling was not the "thing" and it was always "fix the broken person", you see. And throughout my life, nothing helped, either. I tried EVERYTHING except dumping or disconnecting from my family of origin. And money was at least one of the major reasons.
Meanwhile, now I am 62; Mother is 86; Daddy died about 4 years ago at 86.
Daddy's will left all to Mother, and I think there were provisions for us 3 "kids," too. But Mother is not a generous person. Daddy was very generous to us.
Daddy loved me -- the most of all the kids. Even though Daddy was very cruel to me, he also loved me and I don't know about his feelings, but I had a very strong love-hate relationship with him. Not sexual. My hate relationship was stronger than my love.
Had my family not had money, I think I would have left them all a long time ago. But I needed help monetarily, because I could not support myself, and I did not know what to do.
Now, I again/still want to leave them all behind. I loathe my sister in law. My sister has always been ambivalent towards me and last Saturday I realized she is an N. She was very sweet and good to me when we were children; but I was very mean to her then. She was terrified of me and my Dad, but we also all had mutual protection of and from each other. Daddy and I were the tyrants then. Sister was the "sweet one," and I was the "strong one." I retained me sense of self, of my own identity. She has told me that she never knew, still does not know, who she is. That she had subverted herself and hidden behind sweetness in order to avoid the terrors and physical abuse that I endured as I fought to retain my sense of personal dignity and identity. We are both sure that she was not aware that she was doing this, when she was young, of course.
My sister has been getting more and more difficult in the last 8-10 years, and she does not take care of herself in some major ways. She looks great -- a true yuppie even if she is 55 y/o! She is gorgeous. But she is Super Mom -- and her two sons are full grown!
She is under constant stress. When she DOES take care of herself, she and I get along well. But now, as most of the time, she is under such stress that her judgment is off, and as such I cannot trust her. She stressed herself into a mastectomy and was ordered by the doctor to destress, but has not done so. She has wanted to change jobs for NINE YEARS and has not taken even a single step to do that! She has asked Mother's and my support to get rid of her stress; but when we give practical advice, she finally quit asking us. Recently she remodelled her expensive home, on credit -- so now she can't afford to change jobs anyway! And she wants to go to Europe on credit this summer, too.
Mother is some sort of N, too. Daddy was some sort of N. My brother is not an N. But he is a mystery man and there is a lot of secrecy in our family. Last Saturday my sister insulted me so badly it was a great shock; she also insulted my sweet, caring, loving Significant Other, who has never known anything like such a family as I have! So I have not spoken to my sister since then (as of last Tuesday, she has tried to contact me, but I have ignored it.)
I admire the many people here who have managed to cut themselves off from their families of origin, or from certain members of their families.
Last month, my sister and I also had a row. That time it was over a very SIMPLE matter in my mother's will, which involved only me. But my sister acted like it also involved her and my brother, and that THEY were in control of what I wanted. I was outraged. I then called my mother and told her I wanted out of her will and to hell with her and her money and I was tired of cow-towing to her and Daddy and their money all these years and for her to forget it all.
But I decided against it, and a few days later called her back and apologized for being rude. She said she didn't think I had been rude. Can you even imaging her saying that?????????????? She is so out of it -- Daddy was so horrible to her, Sis says, that she doesn't know what "normal rudeness" is like, we think.
We are talking about $350,000 in inheritance, for each of us 3 siblings. My mother is 86 years old. But she could live to be 100. Her grandfather lived to the age of 98.
I live on $592.00 per month Social Security Disability. And I think of suicide a lot. But this is a habit since age 10. When my medications are working better, I don't do this. And I have never had a suicide attempt, so please don't worry. I was upset when I wrote this last Tuesday, and am feeling better now b/c I upped my antidepressant w/ my doctor's permission and they kicked in on Thursday. But the funding cutbacks have me really worried about my mental health services, which keep getting less and less.
Oh -- I am the beneficiary of a smaller "special needs trust" (for disabled people) which is from a house I sold, plus $10,000 Daddy gave to each of us. It totals $25,000 and is supposed to last the rest of my life.
Any comments people think would be helpful would be most welcome. I am really torn about my family, and most of all, angry at myself for putting up with them for so many years. I am so ambivalent about all this. None of my other friends have a huge amount of money -- why should I? But even my sweetheart tells me that the money is MINE and I am entitled to it, as the daughter. And believe me, he is NOT trying to "get the money." He is 74 y/o and knows he does not have a long time to live. And besides, the money will be in a trust FOR ME and he knows he is not able to get any actual funds from a trust, b/c I cannot. He is thinking only of me.
I just feel like I have been too soft on money; but am also torn b/c I have been so helpless for too long.
So, as is surf14, I would greatly appreciate any and all thoughts and advice. Sorry this is so long, and thank you for reading or at least looking this over,
Flo
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Hi Flo,
I guess after reading your story I would ask you if you think you can retain more distance from your family for your own peace of mind and just hang in there? You are going to need the money to live and to continue to receive mental health benefits but your peace of mind is essential because it affects your overall health. You come from a family where there has been much drama over the course of many years and perhaps you'd like to bow out of all this at this point; again more distance but retaining a civil, yet noninvolved stance might be a way to go. Aloha
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There are a lot of issues raised in your post, Flo.
The exhaustion (you)/stress (your sister) are (I believe) just two sides of the same coin - a response to handling the demands of N parents. You're either 'on the run' or you've collapsed after having been trying to cope with a no-win situation for too long. Even tho you may not be aware of how much you are struggling. It's just integral to your personality. That's how I lived my life - even tho I tried so hard not to. When I finally stopped running and being exhausted, the truth came gnawing its way in. That transitional phase is pretty awful and takes its time to work through.
Why not share the book you mention with your sister - it may reveal as much to her as it did to you and it would give you common terrain on which to move forward.
As far as inheritance is concerned, I recognise the practical aspects of your story, but in a situation where money and love (and 'dues') are so mixed up, I'd want to understand that better and disentangle my feelings first. Dorothy Rowe is a real gem for the positive reality check and she wrote a book called The Real Meaning of Money. It refers to a lot of UK stuff but is pretty universal in terms of its main purpose. It's available on Amazon - there are probably lots of similar books available.
R
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PS
In checking on Amazon to see if the Dorothy Rowe book was available in the US, I found another interesting book and I've since read the online extract. You might like to check it out, too. It's called "The Seven Stages of Money Maturity : Understanding the Spirit and Value of Money in Your Life" by George Kinder. It's a long extract so you might like to give yourself plenty of time!
R
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Dear surf and rosencrantz,
Thanks for your excellent points, and such wonderful caring responses you have both given me.
I'll look into how much the N book costs -- if I can afford it, I may buy it and lend it to Sister.
During the day today, when Sister was at work, I left her two short voice mails. One said that I believe neither she nor I completely understands the other's feelings, nor where they are coming from. And that because I am so hurt, I am inviting her to come to my therapist appointment with me. I told her the times they are, and said it is fine to bring her therp, or have her therp be on speaker phone. Also, I said that until that happens, I will need to have a hiatus in talking with her -- or some words to that effect. BUT I said at the beginning of the voice mail to please consider that this is JUST a short voice mail, and not to consider each and every word of huge significance, that I am trying to communicate my thoughts as well as I can in such a venue.
My second voice mail said that not to worry, please, my therp is WONDERFUL, and there is no way he is going to jump all over her -- in fact if he jumps on anyone, it will probably be ME!! Then I laughed and said, Not really, but that two sessions ago my Sweetheart came with me to the session. That it was not a matter of getting therapy for him, nor did we have any issues to raise -- I had just asked him to come to meet my therp and see what my health care is like. "But," I added, "some issues DID come up, and my therp suggested things for him to different in some cases, and in other cases, suggested things for ME to do different. " Continuing that voice mail, I told my Sister that the therp had asked both of us how the hour went for each of us; and that my Sweetheart had told the therp that he had found the hour highly informative and helpful, and he was looking forward to coming again.
I really like your idea, rosencrantz, that both my sister's stress and my overloads are the result of being raised by N parents. I wonder how this fact could be brought out to help us in this situation, though?
I read someplace -- maybe in the N book I am reading -- that when child siblings fight viciously or bully each other that this is a sign of ....not sure what. However, my mother always said our behavior was "normal" and that "all siblings fight." I INSTINCTIVELY KNEW SHE WAS WRONG. And I told her so, but of course, she was always right. She still will NEVER admit to doing ANYTHING less than right in our upbringing! She thinks tying the door shut, or locking it from the outside, so a baby will sleep at naptime is the correct thing to do! She was very impatient with my sister when she used to lie down with her infant sons, each of them when they were babies, and read to them till they fell asleep. Mother was SO AGAINST THIS, and urged Sis to lock the door and lock them in!!! I was outraged when I found out!! This woman was a public school teacher for decades, and was considered a kind, good teacher -- I just do not GET IT. I called my Mother on this, but she got her back up and said she was right to do that, and I said it was terrible and I remembered all those times and it was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. And that was the end of the discussion.
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I am real sure that an N trait is pitting sibling against sibling, even if it requires lies and torture. In our family the NQueenmother had to be in control of everything and alliances were not allowed. She didn't know that sibling alliance normally stems from love, not efforts to overthrow the dictatorship. In our family if someone said "don't worry, I've got your back," -- errrrr, I had to pull the knife out. Wonder how it would feel to have a nice, sweet sister to laugh with and confide in, or to have a brother who made you feel safe with his solid strength, reliability and good humor. :)
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Excellent point, DG. Alliances were not allowed in our family either. Now that you mention it. For one thing, Truth was never spoken. You know -- The Elephant in the Living Room thing? For other, Plots were common, usually I was the one that lead the plot. I'd gang up with my brother upon "my" little sister. I would not think of her as "our" sister, and still do not think of our parents are "our" parents. "We" are not allianced as siblings. Still, the "family loyalty" is to MOTHER. It used to be to "the folks," which is what I named "them" since they were as one. I never could see them as two individuals -- since Mother was 100 percent subjugated under Daddy. Whatever Daddy said, Went. On the rare occasions when Mother would state her own opinion, Daddy would find out -- even our thoughts were not free, and then Mother would say she had never said whatever it was she had said, and go along with parroting Daddy's viewpoint. And what Daddy said was True.
So we were always in some sort of family conspiracy -- since We were Us and everyone else in the world was Other, and Wrong, or Stupid or Dirty, or Ugly, or Mistaken, or Rude, etc etc.
Flo
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I really like your idea, rosencrantz, that both my sister's stress and my overloads are the result of being raised by N parents. I wonder how this fact could be brought out to help us in this situation, though?
To recognise that you are both coming from the same place even tho you express it in different ways. It may generate mutual tolerance and understanding.
Yes, DG I'd forgotten that. I don't have siblings but my mother's sister was exactly like my mother except she had FOUR kids - and they were always set off against each other. And one had the role of scapegoat, so had everyone else's rubbish projected onto him. I don't trust any of them and they have a lot of pain.
I don't know, Flo - if anyone left me voicemails like that, I'd rebel against them.
R
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I can remember way back when I felt such love for my little brother. I felt a real sense of protectiveness towards him (only 18 months difference). He had a marvelous quick wit, but was always a little bit shy -- actually I just described myself at a very young age, oh boy. I remember the summers we played in the backyard, climbing trees, riding our bikes and building forts. He was a sweet little kid. Well, about the time he married, he developed a smug attitude towards me. I didn't put much into it, figuring male hormones and the American stud mentality were manifesting. About 6 years later, when I divorced and begin raising my two sons by myself, that's when he, his wife and the NQueenmother really began to show their distain towards me. I now realize that their low opinion of me had forecast defeat, falling on my face and dependency. When none of that happened, they were furious. I didn't react, turned away, pretended not to hear and see and buried it deeper and deeper, hoping it would stop -- still dreaming I could live with the Leave it to Beaver bunch, wishing I was one of the Waltons. I was embarrassed by their words, actions and looks of disapproval. I said nothing, betting it would stop, still trying to prove I was okay and worthy, still wondering if maybe I was picking up the wrong signals, wondering what I had done wrong, and mostly still hoping my dad would step forward and say "leave her alone." I hated family fighting, the NQueenmother's goofy ways made me cringe. Her holiday episodes, her drama, her lies, her manipulations, all designed to control her subjects, to make sure noone had a happy life. I can remember she would lean forward for me to kiss her forehead -- what the f was that all about ????? I felt like I was on the Jerry Springer show against my will. Now I see that little by little, grain by grain, she blew away the foundation of my relationship with my brother. I know of some of the lies she told him, but I am sure I could still be shocked if I knew the scripts of her smear campaigns. So many times what I hoped were her "misunderstandings" were really outright plans of destruction. I go back to my point that it is so unnatural for a parent, particularly a mother to seek to destroy her child, that people believe what is said, even if it sounds outlandish. And the few who didn't believe the lies (most of whom had been N'd by her themselves) chose to remain silent. Who'd a ever thunk it !! :shock:
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This is just a guess, but kissing on the forehead is how you would kiss a small child, normally. You take it from there.
Discounted Girl, how well I relate to your letter: my Nmother has always turned against me--or anyone--who disagrees with her at the slightest hint (whether real or not). An N trait.
After reading this board and understanding more about narcissism, I am just sad to realize that I never had any chance of a normal mother-child relationship since my Nmother is definitely a classic narcissist. I understand the reasons...now to get over the hurt and anger is the real chore which seems impossible at this point.
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Rosencrantz,
About the voice mails I left my sister, saying I need for her to come to my therapy appointment: I'm not sure you know about why I left them. Have I posted the reason? If I have, I can't find it, so would you let me know so I can explain? Thanks....
Flo :cry:
PS I am not crying about what you said, only about the whole situation with my sister. I can never trust her again unless she comes to my therapist with me. She has broken my trust so badly and insulted me beyond belief.
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Hi Anastasia - I hear you when you say that "to get over the hurt and anger is the real chore which seems impossible at this point". One thing that has worked for me is to continue to build positive relationships with people around me and in the community. Every time I am able to have any kind of exchange with anyone that's normal - better yet positive - I feel that much further away from the pain of knowing that I was used and emotionally abused as a child. I may have been robbed of so much, but watch these scars fade as I learn to share kindness and warmth with others.
Hi Flo - I agree with Rosencrantz that the voice messages may have been off-putting if only because you set some very narrow conditions for your sister to meet. From reading your story about your family, I can tell that there is much confusion and hurt to work through, but while you're doing that very difficult work, try to remember that your sister grew up in the same household and deserves as much respect and support as you do. If you're fighting and upset with each other now, maybe you could give each other some room (and yourself more time to do a little more research into narcissism) so that you can come back and talk to each other once some of the more raw emotions have died down. And when you do decide to make another gesture to her to try to heal your bonds, consider finding a way of talking with her that allows her to offer her own thoughts on what needs to be done to bring you closer together. This forum is about voicelessness for a reason - so many of us here have been denied a voice - and it takes time to find it again, if we ever had one to truly call our own.
One more piece of advice I have to offer in terms of dealing with the rest of your family is that while they may in fact be the ones causing the majority of the drama, it's up to you to make the choice to interact with them in a way that doesn't hurt you. You can count on the fact that they will never change (though I'm sure many of us still hope they will), so it's really up to you to make the change, which doesn't seem fair, I know. But you'll be glad when you realize that you finally have control over a completely insane scenario. A book I've found extremely helpful in developing skills that put me in control of my life has been mentioned here before, but I'll mention it again: Children of the Self-Absorbed: A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents, by Nina Brown.
Wildflower
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Dearest Wildflower and Anastasia,
First, your user names are so lovely. This board has some of the most amazing user names I have encountered ANYWHERE. I think of myself as a wildflower, too. I have used Dandylion (spelling deliberate!), and Flowerseeds, and Flowerbells. I used Flowerseeds for several years. That's related to Dandylion, see, because I "planted seeds," or really, just disseminated seeds or poofed them around, for them to grow in "fertile soil," where ever it might be. I am an organizer, and found that when I would invited people to come together, in the spirit of cooperation and synergy (another name I use), they thrive, and things get done beautifully and FAST.
But lately, since I am getting older and feel OLD, although I look much younger than 62 (people tell me that, anyway, plus it runs in the family to look young -- I wish I looked wise rather than young, LOL! but at least people don't "parent" me or patronize me anymore!! Hooray!) I decided to stop being flowerseeds and be flowerbells, reaping the benefits and listening to the music of the seeds I have planted during the past 30+ years. It is nice to relax and not take so much on.
And Anastasia, first of all, don't you love your beautiful song? From your movie? It is one of the most lovely melodies I have ever heard. And also, the historic Anastasia's life, what the little I remember from the movie and from the marvelous biography **Nicolas and Alexandra**, is that this daughter of Nicolas and Alexandra (tzar and tzarina of Russia who were overthrown and killed in the Russian Revolution) disappeared and nobody knows whether she lived to adulthood or not. Except for the revolution part, the historic Anastasia's story (her disappearance, etc) is a wonderful metaphor for any one of us here, at least that is my take. Have you thought this through in this sort of detail?
As for my own family, you two and all at this thread, and all others interested, (God bless and keep all of you!), of course I do agree that my family suffers. Too. But (1) yes, it has been me who has taken on the sole responsibility for healing myself and the family -- since 1979!! And yes, I have been given credit by my sister. And to a lesser extent by my mother. But (2) despite this, these people -- my entire family of origin, which now includes 1 sister, 1 mother, 1 brother, (and 1 detested sister-in-law) are the only people who can figure out ways to -- not just push my buttons, but send jolts of lightening through my nervous system! and shots of poison into my veins!!!! Who can cause shock and dismay; anguish; sobbing; despair and HATRED that can go on for weeks.
This is why this time around I am cutting myself free for a while, and leaving the situation where it belongs -- in my sister's lap. SHE is the one who insulted me big time, by her ACTIONS. I'll repeat here what she did: she invited me and my Sweetheart, Jim, to come to a jazz concert that her son, my nephew is in the band. (Neph is a 25 y/o professional trombone player, whom **I** got started onto a jazz track when he was 8 and which my sister fully credits me with -- his first solo performance was with me at the State Fair when he was 12!) She left a voice mail, saying I could call her back; that she was not sure if her Significant Other was going to come or not. So when I called her the next day at 1:30 p.m. (the day of the 8:30 p.m. event) saying we'd be delighted to come and were joining her!, she called back 20 min. later and said, um, uh, duh, well.....that since I had not called back that MORNING, "which I said you'd need to do..." that they had invited "another couple we had been wanting to invite for a long time, and...." so I said, "Well, we'll just sit someplace else in the restaurant, then." To which she said, "Well, that would look WEIRD...." and her voice dropped in this "Wee-urd" way....YOU know the way people say WEE-urd?
And I tried to say I was hurt or something -- and she started screaming that "Her feelings were valid and I just didn't care about her feelings." I had said anyone else would have said, "We've invited another couple to come along, too."
Then, we ended the phone conversation. I flew into a panic, hurt, and rage attack, and twisted/broke a plastic automatic pencil I was holding and hurled it across the room. The first object I had broken in over 5 years!!!!
Jim says, "We are going. You have GOT TO STAND UP TO HER and not let her push you around like that anymore." And I said I understood completely where he was coming from, and he was absolutely right. But I could NOT DEAL WITH THIS, AND I was not going.
But then, he called the restaurant, and found out that the band director was an old friend of his -- 15 years!!
So then, he said we could go see HIM, and his band, and not focus at all on my neph (who has been ignoring me for years for reasons I do not know -- he only returns my calls if I have a nice gift for him! Which I never will again) or my sister. I agreed.
Then, Jim called my sister and told her this, and that we would be sitting elsewhere in the restaurant.'
Jim told me that my family will have to realize that they "cannot push you around like this anymore," and that if they do, they will have him to contend with, not just me. I feel very supported, and grateful for this support.
When we arrived at the restaurant, I headed for the restroom, and went bet. the band stage and the audience, and my sister came up from behind me and did the phony usual family thing of putting her arm sort of around my shoulders and saying with a phony smile, "Are you going to come sit witih us, " to which I replied with an absolutely straight face, looking straight at her, "No."
An hour later, the male of the couple they had invited came up to me where I was sitting (Jim still had not found where I had found a seat) and re-introduced himself -- turns out we had met in the past, he said!) and said he and his wife were leaving in a few minutes, and this would open up two chairs, and my sister would like to talk to me, and would Jim and I be Interested in coming and sitting with her and her partner? and I said, No thank you, I am just fine, thanks.
Then, a few days later she called and left me 3 voice mails, but I was still too upset to talk toher, so I asked Jim to listen to them. He says she was apologizing. But there were too many similar incidents over the past 3 years. This was the last straw.
Hence, my distancing. Words don't make it. Verbal communication won't work. I can't communicate with her, because she cannot understand, and unlike some of you courageous people here, I am not able to tell it like it is to my sister's face.
The worst possible fate to my sister is to have a divided family. Sooner or later, I expect she will either call me or write to me, or come over. At that point, I will do what some of you suggest --- give her a copy of ** Trapped in the Mirror,** or offer a more flexible schedule for my therapist. Or ask her for other ideas. But a third party outside the family -- not Jim -- will have to be present. And I want it to be my therp.
Love,
Flo
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HI guys;
When I read your post Discounted Girl, I felt said for what you've had to endure. It has been very painful for you I'm sure; and so underserved. In my family, even as adults, my NQueen Mother has tried to keep the siblings apart; its almost laughable how threatened she is if we talk to each other. And yes, she perists in her attempts to continue to split us. As a very smart woman you'd thing she'd develop some insight into the absurdity of trying to keep a whole family system running on lies and her fantasy needs to be treated like an queen while she acts in a vulgar and cruel way to others.
Rosencrantz: have you ever considered being a therapsist? You seem exceptionally gifted in your articulate feedback and sensitivity towards others. Thanks everyone.
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Flo: Anastasia was my paternal grandmother's name and I have explained why I use it before, so no need to rehash it.
Of all the user names here, I think "Discounted Girl" is the most spot on. Wish I had thought of it as it IS what I was, too.
Just my $.02 on names here.
Now BACK TO THE REAL PROBLEMS TO SOLVE. (Sorry for the interruption.)
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Anastasia, Okay. Duh, sorry I didn't know!!!!!!! No problem about your explanation, of course. I agree about Discounted Girl!
Love,
Flo
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Thanks for the chuckle, Flo. Guess that did sound harsh, but didn't really mean it that way. Just trying not to hog the board with my crap.
REALLY did not mean to insult you, but I have to admit I am cackling some at this desk....and, man, I needed that laugh.
Best to you!!!
Anastasia :D
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As long as explanations are in order, I just want to apologize to both Flo and Anastasia for - ahem - being heavy on the 'advice'. Better for me to sort out my own crap for a while :wink:
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For so many of us here, you will find that you float in and out of here probably. Or, at least, I do.
I was away from my totally Nmother for 21 years. Most of those years there was hardly any contact except for cards and a few gifts at holidays. No phone calls, she would not visit and I couldn't visit her and her husband, etc., etc. (I have no desire to take up valuable board space going over stuff I already have talked about.)
Anyway, I was so blown away by what a narcissist she is that for the first couple months of coming back I did more work here. It helped immensely just to have somewhere to spout off: trust me, nobody but NOBODY but another person who was raised by a narcissist would understand--or believe--how totally selfish and fucked up they are. This board really helped me understand alot.
I have adjusted and relaxed. But, once in awhile, I come back for a refresher or--if she has driven me up the wall and I have let her get to me--to yell and scream here again.
You, too, will probably cycle in and out. I have seen this with others who have been here longer than I, and it is very NORMAL.
:wink:
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Flo,
I read the story about the incident at the jazz club. Here is my impression. Your sister is very, very immature. She is like a 13 year old in an adult body. I think she will use adolescent methods of manipulation, insincerity, two-facedness, etc., to get her way. My bet is that she needs to be "the popular girl" and does whatever she can to maintain this self-image.
I think at the club, she was embarrassed and guilty, and tried to repair the damage in a clumsy and manipulative way. The other couple also tried to repair the damage although it wasn't their responsibility. Perhaps they felt critical of your sister and resentful of being put into an awkward situation by her.
I guess your sister doesn't yet know how to repair damage. She does it in a self-involved and manipulative way, like she basically wants to be "given a pass" on her behavior. It's good that you aren't doing it. Your boyfriend seems like a great guy, also.
As for your sister seeing your therapist with you, here are some concerns. Did you ask your therapist about seeing your sister? Some therapists would not agree to this for various reasons. It would be extremely threatening for your sister to come to *your* therapist who is on your side (this is ethically and professionally the therapist's position). No matter how much you assure her otherwise, she has every reason to be threatened by it. You could both go to a therapist who hasn't seen either of you before. It would be great if you two could see a therapist together, but a lot of people feel extremely ashamed and terrified of seeing a therapist and just won't do it.
bunny