Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: whoami on December 16, 2006, 08:09:03 PM
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My narcassistic person really got on my nerves tonight. He came at me with at least 4 back to back insults and then expected me to laugh with him at this kind of talk. What's WRONG with YOUUUUUUU, he asked in a most shocked manner.
I am puzzled as to why I should laugh at insults about my body, about my worth, about me being replaced, or any other such nasty comments that devalue who I am.
I made a point of telling him what he said to me was acting like a JERK and then distanced myself from him.
Did I do the right thing? Is there anything a person can say to regain their voice when it has continually been silenced?
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I think you did the right thing whoami. You let him know you wouldn't stand for that and that it was inappropriate. He was being a jerk and I'm glad you let him know it. Your using your voice and enforcing some boundaries. Great job whoami.
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I am at a point in my life where the only people I want in it are those who will FIGHT FOR ME. I won't tolerate abuse and I won't be around enablers either. Here's a new boundary for the enablers:
Uncle Nate & Grandma,
I received Christmas cards from both of you, and I'm confused. Have you received any of my emails? Are you ignoring them? This reminds me of the times when I was a child and my mother went off on one of you or Aunt Christine, and punished us (her kids) as a result. Neither one of you have ever had the strength or courage to talk about that abuse. Do you not remember? Are you feeling guilty for having done nothing? Did you really believe those were isolated incidents? Have you ever questioned anything???
At this point in my life, I remember things like this Vividly. I don't know the mechanism, how or why all these memories are coming to the surface - all I know is that I remember that day you dropped off presents in our front yard on Christmas day Grandma - LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY - you dropped them off cause you were too afraid to come in the house, as my Mom had picked a fight with YOU that year (every year, it is someone different - Dad too, he finds a new Scapegoat every year). I came outside to see you, but I was the only one with enough courage to do so. You hugged me and cried and said I was a "Good kid." Since I never heard that from my Mom or Dad, I remembered it and cherished it, but it wasn't enough. It's not enough to turn your back on loved ones (children) who are vulernable and weak and not give more. And not do or say something to fight evil - which is what abuse is. It's not enough cause one day when they're adults, and they're trying to process this painful past, they will remember that YOU ENABLED THE ABUSE. You didn't do anything.
I cannot continue to ignore the fact that BOTH MY PARENTS ARE ABUSIVE. I will not tolerate it, nor will I associate with others who do and IGNORE IT. My neices and nephews will suffer, just like I did, cause no one is brave enough, strong enough or enlightened enough to see it. I won't be a party to this any longer. I have cut off all ties with family members who are abusive and/or enabling abusers. One day, my neices and nephews will find their way to my door and I will be brave enough to listen to them. I will hold them and hear them and I will Love them. I will not turn my back on them like you two have for YEARS.
Please stop sending me cards, don't call or attempt anymore contact with me, if you plan on continuing your relationship with my Parents. They are not parents, they are abusers.
I'm trying to let go of the outcome, although it's hard. Let's just say my expectations are set Extremely low. Now - onto thinking about people who deserve my thoughts and prayers.
Bean
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whoami -
I made a point of telling him what he said to me was acting like a JERK and then distanced myself from him.
Did I do the right thing?
From where I sit - you did the right thinig. Do you have the strength to distance yourself permanently yet? I suspect that he will not be able to understand what is wrong with his behavior and that if you stick around it will not get better. You deserve better. We all deserve better than being belittled by anyone, especially someone we care about. Many of us have not known better but I am very struck by this statement by Penelope, "I am at a point in my life where the only people I want in it are those who will FIGHT FOR ME. " I am struck that it has never occurred to me that I deserved someone who would FIGHT for me. Neither of my parents did. My brother's didn't. Neither of my husband's did. But Penelope is right. We all deserve someone who will FIGHT for us and someone we will fight for as well.
This guy doesn't sound like someone who will fight for you. Open you heart to kindness. You deserve it. - Gaining Strength
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moon,
I am sorry you had a difficult day. You can come here and talk about it, all you want.
You do not deserve those crummy heartaches, those slips and falls... you get up and wipe yourself off and stand Proud girl!
((((((((((((moonlight)))))))) (((((((whoami))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((GS)))))))))) (((((moutainspring))))))
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Bean...
I am so glad you wrote your uncle and grandma the truth about your hurt. You needed to tell them.
Only thing I wondered was, if you can ask that grandma to choose between her child, an abuser, and her grandchild.
As long as she acknowledges your truth in some way, so that you do feel she has stopped the denial...would you be okay seeing her even if she hasn't renounced her son or daughter? Could you just put a boundary around her relationship with them, and enforce that you don't want to hear about them from her? That allows you to love her, and her you, without you trying to control another area.
I felt steel going into my spinal column when I read your letter to them. It was a response to the power of your simply speaking the truth. Your anger and hurt are so legitimate and it literally felt cleansing to read it, knowing you'd sent it to them, not buried it.
Kudos, strong Bean! And thank you so much for putting that criterion so beautifully. I'll fight for ya!
love,
Hops
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Whoami,
I hope you'll keep speaking the truth and creating distance and safety for yourself, rather than staying in reach of someone who would hurt you. Hope you'll keep posting and let us know how it's going.
Moooooon, hon.
Makes me sad to know you've had a struggle with the pain, but it's so understandable. Even with huge realizations, they can bump up and down a while on the bottom before they really settle in as our permanent foundation.
Don't worry...you know the direction you've chosen. A little detour doesn't mean you got lost.
((((Moon))))
Hops
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hi hops,
I'm OK not having a relationship with any of my family ever again. Most of them are abusive. For all I know, my uncle is an N like my Dad (I don't really know since he wasn't my father) and my Grandmother could be the reason why my Dad is so cold.
I was never very close to either of these relatives. It is a slap in the face when they pretend nothing's going on, when they've seen my mother rage so many times at her kids on holidays..they have seen it and they've experienced it themselves. I don't understand how anyone in their right mind would want to be around this woman after she's treated people she supposedly "loves" this way.
No hops. This family can only begin to heal when we (the sane ones) get away from the abusers. Literally. Get away. As long as someone is still talking to them, they're still feeding the monsters. If the monsters stopped getting so much praise and kudos, maybe they'd realize they're monsters. As it stands, the denail in my family is so thick you can cut it with a knife.
I'm OK with it. It's my goal to live free, and not be around them anymore. Ever. Again. I realize this is not the choice for everyone. But it is the right choice for me.
As little as 3 years ago, when I had no place to go and no money (literally), my parents kicked me out of their house. When I said "fine, I'll leave within the next 2 weeks.." my mother (cause they needed the rent I was paying them) said "oh no, I didn't mean so soon - I want you to stay until January (3 months away). Cause we need a boarder anyway, and it may as well be you." I left within a month. I didn't really enjoy it there anyway - besides being condescending and treating me like a kid, and their slave - I cleaned "my bathroom" (the guest bathroom) everyday, although it was never "right" so my Mom redid it, my Dad raged at me when I left a coffee cup on the counter. It Goes in the SINK! He'd yell at me, slamming it down on the counter. I swear he kicked my dog when I wasn't looking...[there's more but I blocked it out]. They told everyone "we don't want any of our kids living with us anymore." What they neglected to say was they were so up to their ears in debt they needed me as much as I needed them. I had gone back to school and taken out a school loan to pay them rent. I had friends from work, who offered to let me live with them For Free, and my own parents didn't want me there. It was cramping my Dad's style.
As little as 4 years ago, my mother sent a letter to everyone in our family (spouses/SOs included). It started out like this: F-CK You ALL! If you don't want to come to my family gathering than you can all just F-ck yourselves!...
As little as 8 years ago, my mother assaulted me in my home while my father stood by and watched and did nothing. She grabbed my ponytail, and swung me around the room a few times after I asked her to leave when she became verbally abusive, and showed her the door. My husband at the time also saw the whole thing - and thought she was crazy. (I did not call the police and have her arrested, but I probably should have - in the name of "wanting a relationship with her"). Later, all was forgotten and everyone expected me to forgive and forget.
As little as 15 years ago, my mother gave me a black eye, for spite. I didn't even do anything except say "Leave me alone!"...
This is just how they've treated me. There are 5 other siblings, and I've heard the stories here and there...I can only imagine what she's done to them. Two have moved out of the state, to get their kids away from her. Problem is, since we all hate each other (my Mom creates that jealousy, purposefully), we never compare notes, except on rare occasions. Everyone is so afraid to point out the Elephant in the middle of the room - that the raging elephant gets to keep ruling and abusing all.
The problem with this is - she takes care of my brothers' and sisters' kids. She is verbally and physically abusive - what will she do to them when no one is looking? Backhand them like she used to do me everyday for "being smart." Continually insist they "wipe that look off their face" whenever they show displeasure with her? My Dad is worse, as he's is abusive in a more cunning way, and he gets my Mom to abuse whoever he's mad at at the time.
bean
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Oh (((((((((((((((((Bean)))))))))))))))))))))
I am so sorry.
I am so glad you shared more detail, I can be so naive.
Bravo to you for this powerful boundary. I agree.
It's absolutely right.
love,
Hops
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it's OK hops, you didn't know how strongly I feel about this, that's all.
I think it's more difficult in a large family, cause if one person takes a stand, there are 15 others who can call that person crazy...but, in my case - I may be the only one who is Not crazy. People will get hurt if they spend enough time around my parents; I'm convinced of it.
I know I'm making a statement, but I truly believe it's an important one, for the health of all involved.
bean
p.s. my therapist has pretty much the same reaction as you, often; then I explain what I think and why and she says - Yes, I see...
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Bean / whoami,
Since coming onto this board I have been realizing the importance of setting boundaries, I think that you both did a great job of it. It is not always easy because when you stand up for yourself sometimes you feel that you are being unfair to others. I guess that kind of feeling must come from early programming.
But I feel that if you keep doing it (setting boundaries and saying what you really feel) it will get easier as you practise.
Lib
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{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Bean}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
There are no words I have to express the compassion I feel for you having gone through all this from a person who was supposed to have loved and valued you.
May you live in peace the rest of your days, away from people who never deserved you in the first place.
ReallyME
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thank you reallyme
I'm feeling quite sad - as its the holidays...
I really appreciate being able to come here and be myself. Thank you for listening.
bean
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(((Bean)))
I am sorry, so deeply sorry for the pain you have endured. Your strength as you work forward is amazing and so hopeful for us all. Bean you stand up for all that is truly good, you have the guts to take no less. I applauder you for you honor of yourself and others you love ( deservingly).
I hope one day I can be half as strong as you. Bean, continue to triumph over evil.
Words are hard to find but..... May you continue to heal and share as you win your life back (as your actions show), as I have listened, I have learned so much, thank you Bean. Love and Peace seasons
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Hi whoami,
I made a point of telling him what he said to me was acting like a JERK and then distanced myself from him.
Good for you, for taking care of you as best as you could. (hugs)
Did I do the right thing? Is there anything a person can say to regain their voice when it has continually been silenced? Yes!!!!!!!! I believe you never have a voice with an N, the truth is sad. When you say regain, do you believe you ever were heard from your N?
I wish you the best, hope to get share more as you are ready. (((((seasons))))
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sorry for hijacking your thread whoami. Please share some more if you can find the words.
Is your Narcissistic person a relative? For some reason, he sounds like a boyfriend/spouse or ex? Maybe you mentioned it already and I missed it. Does this person have to be in your life, or can you limit toxic contact? You can regain your voice with others, but with an N, it's extremely difficult if not impossible. They're the only ones "allowed" a voice.
love & Peace,
bean
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whoami: Bravo for sticking up for yourself. I hope you can keep doing it. It can be very hard.
penelope/bean: Your letter was really something, I can see why you had to write it. I'm very impressed by people who come from such an overtly abusive household, being able to break free and stick up for themselves.
(I have just finished reading "The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment," by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert Pressman. The book distinguishes between overtly and covertly narcissistic families.)
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Thanks for the validation Lib and Jade.
Jade, I have not read this book you mention, nor have I heard of it before despite my massively large and increasingly so library on this subject :wink:. It does look good:
http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?pid=0787908703&ad=FGLBKS
bean
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whoami: Bravo for sticking up for yourself. I hope you can keep doing it. It can be very hard.
penelope/bean: Your letter was really something, I can see why you had to write it. I'm very impressed by people who come from such an overtly abusive household, being able to break free and stick up for themselves.
(I have just finished reading "The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment," by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert Pressman. The book distinguishes between overtly and covertly narcissistic families.)
I happen to have this book, (found it this year while attending a conference). After reading it, it's what prompted me to start searching for more information on Narcissistic Families and found this board as a result.
Bones
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Hi whoami,
I think you did the right thing and good for you. Your N person laughed at devaluing you because they probably devalue themself.
"Is there anything a person can say to regain their voice when it has continually been silenced?" I think the only thing one can do is to enforce one's boundaries. After I have been verbally attacked, I respond to the person by saying something that enforces my boundaries and then my self esteem increases and I no longer feel voiceless.
Hi Bean,
I am so sorry you have endured so much. You are incredibly strong and resourceful.
May this New Year bring you more strength and put you on the path you want to be on. May that be true for all of us.
I want to endorse the book that Jade mentioned: "The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment," by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert Pressman. It is an excellent, eye opening book and I highly recommend it.
Dazed
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My Uncle responded. I forgot to mention that he is a retired police officer, and thus has seen his fair share of domestic violence. Do you think he's feeling a bit guilty?
Here's what he wrote back:
Bean,
All I know about this abuse it what you've told me in 3 e-mails. That's pretty one sided so I
can't form any opinions based on those alone. Yes, your parents did mistreat us (or Christine) but
every family has its ups and downs. It seems unreasonable to cut yourself off from people who
care about you because you're angry w/ someone else. I love you and will be glad to meet/talk
about this. I'm off for 2 weeks starting Weds.
I think yoru're a pretty accomplished woman.
Nate
Here is my response:
Uncle Nate,
I am not angry. I've been in therapy now for almost a year. The anger has long passed. I speak my truth and I've chosen to make a statement - by not speaking to them or YOU ALL WHO ARE ENABLERS, I'm saying that what they're doing is wrong. It's the only decent thing to do.
I'd be happy to tell you some of the things they've done. (I listed the things I wrote above)
There's more but since it wasn't done to me personally or I don't have the hard evidence, I don't feel I should mention it.
Form your own opinions and I wish you luck with that.
Bean
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Hi bean, It seems like your uncle isn't affected personally, so he doesn't want to rock the boat. Most people I know are like that. They can see what someone is doing is wrong, but if it doesn't get under their skin then they don't feel any need or urge to take a stand. They will even like the person in spite of what they know. I run into that all the time. In fact, some people start to dislike me if I insist on making my stand with a particular person. Like they have to take the other person's side because of my strong stance. Like they feel sorry for the other person and I'm the bad guy for having the opinion I have.
It is a hard situation to be in. But even if you can't get the others to see, at least you see and can take a stand yourself. It would just feel better, I imagine, for someone else to see it the way you do. Maybe in time, more of them will.
PP
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hi PP -
Thanks for your comments. I think you're right that my uncle is not going to rock any boats - well except mine (perhaps I asked for it though). Did you notice he 1) decided he can't "judge" my claims since he hasn't heard the other side.. (sort of N to put himself in this position, I think), 3) dismissed the mistreatment as "every family has its ups and downs" - which implys it has stopped (wishful thinking on his part), 3) called me unreasonable (I choose to think of myself as courageous), 4) decided I'm angry with my parents - maybe I'm even just out for revenge is implied? 5) "I think yoru're a pretty accomplished woman" maybe this is a sore spot with me, but in my family, my parents like to take all the credit for how their "kids" have all turned out (bleck!) I hope he's not implying it again here!!
I wonder if my Uncle isn't an N. He sort of creeps me out, to tell ya the truth. He is so much like my Dad in so many ways... I do not like the way he treats his girlfriend, and have often thought of mentioning things that he has done to her like, 1) she asks him a question, he ignores her and doesn't say anything for an hour while we're driving in the car to their house (she, embarrassed says to me: it used to bother me that he does this - then I realized he just gets lost in thought, that's why he doesn't always answer me). The question is whether I should stay for awhile when we get to their house... Since my uncle hasn't answered and in fact stopped talking, I leave when I get there. He calls me on the phone as I'm driving home and says "why'd you leave? I was going to invite you in." 2) He talks about himself incesantly, and belittles her appearance.
I have wondered why she stays with him. Maybe this is judgemental of me, or maybe I have a 6th sense...who knows?
bean
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Hi bean, It seems like your uncle isn't affected personally, so he doesn't want to rock the boat. Most people I know are like that. They can see what someone is doing is wrong, but if it doesn't get under their skin then they don't feel any need or urge to take a stand.
I"m too tired to remember who posted this, but I must say that I totally AGREE! I have been the "bad guy" all my life for taking a stand against the "popular" person that everyone in the family engrandized, even when they were wrong. I have been a "boat-rocker," a scapegoat, a rebel...you name it...been it all and done it all in the name of standing for justice for the underdog.
Don't expect a person who supports the family "secrets" and dysfunctions, to be proud of you for pointing out the flaws. they do NOT LIKE THAT! They want to portray the image of "we're just fine...one big happy family" even though it couldn't be farther from the truth. When people like you and I dare to question and address things, they see us as a threat and an enemy, who has "asked for it" when we are "punished."
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(PP, tell me if you don't like my fantasy monologues...love, Hops)
Dear Uncle Nate,
"Ups and downs" is a way of minimizing the trauma I went through.
That's enabling, and that's why I can't interact with them, or you.
A police officer knows better than most what denial and enabling can do.
PP
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Hey, Pbean,
I think you're right on the money. Uncle Nate does sound N. And he found the perfect mate, someone who can justify any inconsiderate thing he would do to her and let him off the hook. The not answering and then acting all innocent when you leave. Belittling her appearance. The one-sidedness of his comments to you. He sounds very manipulative at any rate. No, bean, I don't think he will ever want to understand your side of the story. It will hit too close to home. I hope you let go of him too. It is not worth the cost to try and keep this person in your life.
Pennyplant
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Hops - I love the inner monologue! This one I will keep inside my head. thank you hops...
PP - thank you........It's so weird that I have a hard time just seeing him for who he is. I need everyone else to validate it. :(
OK, and about now I'm feeling Really guilty for taking over this thread!! :oops: :oops:
bean
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Hi bean,
Two things strike me about your uncle's response: He shows no empathy for you and he minimizes your feelings.
For me, I believe a great source of my voicelessness comes from people who show little empathy for me and minimize my feelings.
Now that I know about voicelessness and I see someone respond with no empathy and they minimize my feelings, RED FLAGS appear. The red flags tell me that this person is going to try to define my reality and tell me that my perceptions are wrong.
Since he is a blood relative and Nism can be genetic, it's really possible he is an N or has N traits. Therefore, don't be surprised and don't let him make you feel crazy when he shows little empathy, minimizes your feelings or tries to define/redefine your reality.
Actually, when I think about it, it would be rather miraculous if he would be supportive of you. So, I think, while it's good to make yourself heard, protect your vulnerability against your uncle and your family so that they don't destroy you.
Just know in your heart that what you know is true and don't let anyone gaslight you.
with love,
dazed
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Dazed : Now that I know about voicelessness and I see someone respond with no empathy and they minimize my feelings, RED FLAGS appear. The red flags tell me that this person is going to try to define my reality and tell me that my perceptions are wrong.
EXCELLENT!
This, in a nutshell is what N's do.
Now, i'd like to share a story about something that happened with my daughter years ago in school with an N teacher. My daughter was about 7 years old and she came to me crying one day saying "Mommy I don't like Mrs ______! She hurt me! She made me shove a pencil up my nose!"
As you can imagine I was horrified and aimed to get to the bottom of this crud with this teacher!
I set up a meeting with the lady and told her what my daughter alleged. My daughter was in the meeting too, so she could give her side of the story (which is a very good thing to do with your children, by the way...have them come to the meetings so they can learn about communication with people). The teacher said to me, "oh no, your daughter has things a bit confused" (keep in mind that there was a red indentation on the side of my daughter's nose).
I said, "ok, then let's let her tell us what happened."
Immediately the teacher jumped in saying "that's NOT REALLLLLLLLLLLLY how it happened, was it Carol? Tell your mother what REALLY happened!" I could tell the lady was trying to intimidate my daughter into LYING to protect her image.
I grabbed my daughter and said "This will NOT happen again!" That was the first year I homeschooled my daughter and my first taste of true N manipulation and control.
Now, with my situation, Jodi tried the same thing with me..."you probably just got things a bit mixed up, and that's ok. you were in a strange place, so I'm sure you can't remember how it all went, girl." YEAH RIGHT~! I know EXACTLY what happened to me while I was there, and I will NEVER tell anything other than the truth as long as I live, irrespective of reputation, image, etc. That's how it is.
~RM
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Hi reallyme,
Thanks for your kind words. I kinda feel like you validated me, like I "get" voicelessness.
Your experience with your daughter's teacher and Jodie, yuch!! These Ns, these abusers, vampires, they are all over the place. Now I watch out for them.
No longer will I let the Ns sucker punch me.
Dazed
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Bean:
But if you're in the family - she's the Ring Leader and holds all the love and pride. So if you want any little bit, you better do what she wants. Else, you're nobody
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Interesting thing to note here, Penelope...what other type of families do we see this sort of dynamic in operation?
MAFIA ring a bell? There is always a MATRIARCH and/or PATRIARCH in mafia families, right? Similarity I believe.