Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on December 23, 2006, 11:42:28 AM
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I was wondering if people would like to share (whether current or hindsight aha's) what they have realized is/was a PINK flag.
Not the huge classic signs of narcissism that most of us have practically memorized, but the subtler things. Maybe the knowledge of Nism plus having more respect for intuition will make these easier to spot in a new person in our lives.
Maybe if we put our heads together we could help each other tune in more?
So...THINK PINK. What is a pink flag you've spotted in an early encounter with someone N or N-ish?
thank you very much,
Hops
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In my experience with Ns, they are able to cover up all the flags early on, pink, red whatever color. Maybe it is my poor N-vision. - GS
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laughing out loud here.............at myself.
XN had NO PINK Flags his were all screaming scarlet red. Ok, how about this............ I must have been nuts.........still laughing.
One of our first conversations he tried to convince me that my daily commute took longer than it actually did.........DUH!!!
Gave the lecture on "lesbian butch feminists" informed him I am a feminist......... went straight over his head.
Told me what I liked!!!
Major put down about my profession!!!!
Promised me a new life!!! - the one I had was ok
Told me how wonderful "our new life" would be..........my role and his role!!!!
Oh my GOD can someone hit me over the head with a hammer..........and all of this was on our first date.
I must have been nuts
AXA
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A pink flag for me is when they say something that is supposed to be complimentary.. but you KNOWWWWW that they did not mean it that way at all. It's sorta passive-agressive maybe? Maybe that's not the word for it either. But it's like when they compliment you but you sense under that compliment is a desire to control you with that flattery. And that is just what it is. Or maybe they don't mean it as the compliment that it sounded like to everyone else. To you it was a horrible insult but no one else could guess it. That is because they are really trying to burn you at the same time remaining true to their good guy image!
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Wow. Yesssss.
(Y'all are genius at this! A lot of the pink ones seem to me maybe, like things that could conceivably "look like" positive actions/gestures/remarks (or that show "strength", like giving someone a piece of his mind...)---
so maybe one of the pink indicators is that the behavior/remark/whatever makes you feel confused.
Another thing that I think now is a pink flag is whether it's really overt or not, bragging.
I think people should and can present themselves positively, or share pride in an accomplishment...nobody has to pretend to be egoless. But sometimes someone will act as though they're "reluctantly" letting you know how fabulous they are, but there's some off note that screams to you (if you're -- well I mean if I'm -- trusting my intuition) that they're LOVING teling you how great they are.
I dunno, it's hard to express. False humility's no fun, and a person who has no spunk is no fun either....but that boundary between happy sharing of self-positives and bragging is a real pink area for me.
More? I think if I get better at spotting the pink flags the red ones won't be such a danger, since I'd only be seeing them in my rear-view mirror.
Thanks much,
Hops
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Hmm. Pink flags.
Lying;
distortion;
refusal to discuss an issue followed by blatant distortion of what you said or did in your attempt to discuss it;
[especially if that distortion is rumormongering behind your back];
preoccupation with 'image';
inability to let anyone else have the last word;
compulsion to interject something into any conversation in the vicinity, whether or not it is relevant, or polite;
compulsion to dominate conversations;
turning everything into a contest;
exhibitionistic charity, intended as a display of self, not really as an act of kindness towards others. [This one is easy to spot: see how the would-be-called-saint reacts when asked to do unglamorous, hard work, to benefit whoever they claim to be feeling charitable towards.]
These were strong, strong traits in my mother, and I've seen them quite blatantly displayed elsewhere, too. I've become adept at recognizing them, and I make a point of remembering them when I see them, because these things remain constant over time, or get worse, and it is these things that reveal who a person really is.
The single biggest pink flag for me - one of my mother's favorite maneuvers:
behaving in an outrageously abusive manner, and then switching that off instantly - the behavior, the affect, the whole stunt - and acting as though it never occurred.
No acknowledgement, no admission, no apology. That is gaslighting, denial, and dishonesty to the nth degree. A fitting term, because the behavior is characteristic of Ns. It's a classic trick of the emotional abuser, but the 'cold switch' is also seen in sociopaths. Which I strongly suspect my mother of having been.
It is very, very important not to ignore this sign when you see it, because it really is a dead giveaway that you are dealing with an abuser, whether or not they are blatantly abusive all the time, or even much of the time. There is no disguising this particular stunt, and there is really no excusing it. A genuine adult, or even a decently raised child, is capable of owning up when they behave badly, and can apologize.
In fact, the shame of NOT owning up and NOT apologizing, to mature adults and children with consciences, is far greater than the shame of having to face the fact that you [yes, you... and me... and every fallible and honest human being, at some time or other...] really and truly did something beastly to someone; and admitting as much to them; and asking their forgiveness.
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How's about,
"Misremembering" conversations and events; always to their advantage of course.
Jokingly(pink flag) or seriously(red flag) claiming everyone around them is crazy or incompetent.
Claiming that a justified reprisal for an unwarranted provocation of their's is "unfair" and whining about it.
(For men) clinging to their mommy, or alternately badmouthing her.
Accepting an unearned compliment or praise rather than directing it to the rightful recipient.
Subtly behaving in public in ways that always seem to be compensating for some type of insecurities.
A dead giveaway; any type of repeated projection, no matter how seemingly insignificant.
A seemingly good sense of humor, but one that is always sarcastic and puts others down. But seldom if ever themselves.
mud
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(For men) clinging to their mommy, or alternately badmouthing her.
mud
That one's not Just For Men! The female version: simultaneously clinging to someone and badmouthing them at the same time. Aka hostile dependency. Usually starts with Mommy but almost never stops there. [My mommy did it to her mommy, but she also did it to me, major big time. Dr. Freud! Paging Dr. Freud!]
And for the guys, if mommy isn't around to cling to and badmouth, sadly, the Mrs. will often do as a fill-in.
A dead giveaway; any type of repeated projection, no matter how seemingly insignificant.
Yep, also any type of repeated distortion. I once dated a guy who always mis-heard what I was saying to him on certain topics, because he didn't actually listen; but what was important was that he got it wrong the same way every time... turned out, he was an alcoholic who had never seriously committed to recovery, and he had fallen off the wagon.
Wouldn't you know, the things he mis-heard all had to do with... taking responsibility! Which of us was going to pick up the steak and which of us was going to pick up the salad for dinner with friends, that kind of stuff. And wouldn't you know... he always mis-heard in exactly the way that put all the responsibility... on me.
Accepting an unearned compliment or praise rather than directing it to the rightful recipient.
Plagiarism and other forms of idea-stealing aren't far behind this one. Taking something someone else has worked out in print, or in conversation with you, and presenting it as if it were your own insight. I've seen that in plenty of workplaces, not always happening to me; basically it happens to anyone who is creative and works around someone envious or otherwise lacking a few scruples.
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Hi all
Truth is all I can stand to live with ...........
Recognizing negative behaviors in self and others is healing.
It is then we can come to the understanding of what is a healthy relationship.
And then say no thanks to the ones that will not change....
And Go your separate way.....................
And this is made so easy by remembering we are not our stories and we are so much more...............
Love to you and so much more
moonlight :D
Happy Holidays
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I have a friend who is very attractive who I'm slowly distancing myself from...
For one thing, pick a subject, any subject, it always goes back to how wonderful she is and how everyone just loves her.
She talks so much that I can't get a word in edgewise, mostly it is bragging about herself.
If a guy flirts with her, she makes sure to tell me 50 times and bring it up to everyone else who comes in contact with her50 time, also.
She makes sly put down remarks to me.
She very aggressive and has violent tendencies.
She constantly gives unasked for advice and when I state that I've already done that, it's like talking to a brick wall, like she hadn't even heard what I said.
She thinks she knows everything-- Like I was telling her something that my doctor told me to do, she gonna override what the doctor told me to do and tell me what she thinks I should do...
In social settings she has to be the center of attention. She'll flirt with married men in front of their wives.....
So, I'm backing away from her, I believe she's crazy as hell!! LOL!! Or do I just seem jealous? Is it normal to feel annoyed when someone brags about themselves all the time? She will brag about herself for hours if you let her. I always have to stop the conversation, because I'll have something to do. Sometimes I will listen to be nice, but most of the time, I think she has a serious problem to boast so much. That is not normal is it? She is an attractive woman why does she has to constantly remind people of that? I don't see the point.
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Hi Caluria,
Your friend sounds exactly like my mother. Uncanny.
Is it normal to feel annoyed when someone brags about themselves all the time?
In my experience, being around constant bragging is:
annoying
exhuasting
irritating
frustrating
confusing
enraging
maddening
crazy-making
stupefying
mind-fuzzing
numbing
soporific
anxiety producing
depressing
horrifying
You've got company. So does she: She, Herself, and She Again.
I think you're very wise to be responding and respecting your own reaction.
Hopalong
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Sadly I must admit bragging is something I learned and picked up on early.
I would go from feeling I was absolutely worthless to thinking I was the Queen of Sheba
But those Queen of Sheba days are over and I believe this behavior was most unattractive .
I do not feel any compulsion to brag ............................ but I did and now I do not.
This is a good thing........
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Thank you for a great topic and a great read.
Here's one more I have noticed lately... making compliments on things that are obviously NOT complimentary... or things which are embarrassing or stand out. I learned that it is nice to give someone a sincere compliment... there is always something nice you can notice about someone. My mother will notice something not complimentary and mention it, however. For example, this summer, I am sure I mentioned it, she spent a lunch comparing my body unfavorably to my sister's.I think my father must have said something to her, because after that, she said about 100 times how "skinny" I looked in my new bathing suit. It was a stupid thing to say, because I am far from skinny. The suit does look better than others on me. Her compliments to people are either about things she covets, or glaringly obvious defects or to cover up something mean she has said.
(((((((((((everyone))))))))))))))
Love, Beth
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Pink Flag:
Someone who explains how terrible his childhood was and how aweful his mother was without having any insight into how that would affect him in the present. Also, does not seem to be angry at his mother for deserting him for several years during his childhood.
A man who is kind of desperate to be close to his cold mother.
Here is a good one I think....... A person who seems to be stoic about their feelings and maintains incredible strength during crisis. However, as time goes on it is clear that they can do this because they don't have feelings about events and lack insight into what is going on.
This was a major mistake.
Another pink flag is if you ask what went wrong in their previous marriages and they blame the spouse completely.
Sea Storm
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Wow, this thread brought up some interesting thoughts for me.
I used to relive those pink and other color "flags" A LOT (maybe ad nauseum) as a way of processing how it was I got to "here".
I thought about sharing some of them here, but I must be at a different point now.
I guess I choose not to share because I realize that whenever I do, I can very easily relive those feelings, and it actually makes me want to spit, when I realize that my exN has taken up so much of my precious NOW. I'm just over doing that to myself. Like picking a scab. Why? I just don't care that much anymore. Maybe I walked through that fire, and don't need to do it again.
Like Moonlight reminds us, we are not our stories.
Granted our stories can help others...I am just not sure how I can do it without irritating or boring myself to tears. Talking about my own experiences with that just doesn't seem interesting to me anymore.
Not that you guys are boring me at all. It is remarkable how all of us seem to have fallen into similar "traps" and denial/blindness. Oh well. Whatev (as my niece would say).
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Mum,
In some ways I feel that the more energy I give to XN in my head the more I punish myself..........really working on keepig that energy for myself. I too am more than my experience with XN.......... thankfully.
I also understand the need to work through the stories. just trying to move a little myself.
axa
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I'm bumping this thread because it seems so relevant to a lot of the discussions that are currently going on...
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--Modified; Personal Reasons--
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RA,
I see "Lies" listed on your flags alot. I had to think about this thread a lot. I really had to think about it because I didn't even consider that my mom could be an N for a long time. I just knew she was scary. So here are some things that I think were early warning signs for me.
1. Lies, I have to agree with this one. Lots of lies.
2. Never believing a word I said once she had made up her mind about something. She still thinks I was in a cult and doing drugs in college, even though I wasn't, and no amount of proof has changed her mind.
3. Projecting and displacement.
4. Dominating all conversations with the things that were going on in her life.
5. Always having to one up everyone. If talking about your house for instance, she'll say things like, "I could do so much with that . . ." or "When I was decorating . . ."
6. Being a know it all, even about things she knows nothing about.
7. Jealousy.
8. Making comments like, "your butt is jiggling" and then saying they were jokes.
9. Never listening to what other people say or believing anyone can have an idea but her. Everything has to be her way.
10. Subtle and constant put downs.
I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of anymore right now.
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Saying Yes, but. What you SHOULD do is x. After all, Greg and Lori have THEIR kids in church four times a week. I was the one who started the gift standardization initiative in our industry (kind of like Al Gore inventing the internet) If I were you I would x. I wish you would x. Why dont you x? I wish you would spend all your time concentrating on your special needs daughter while working full time and keeping a perfectly clean house? After all...
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Yep, lies, lies and more lies.
Terrified of the truth.
And a flair for exagerating.
Uses a minute bit of truth to create a lie.
Has to be right.
Never, ever admits to failure, weakness, or any smidgen of wrong doing.
Sneaky.
Underhanded.
Greedy but appears none of these.
Always looking for a target or a weak spot in others and then bombardis it relentlessly.
Uses sarcasm to hurt.
Uses information gained from a person (or elsewhere) against that person.
Seems to enjoy watching others squirm (more obviously/big red flag....suffer).
Gossips like a mocking bird.
Always takes care of self first while prentending to be doing the exact opposite.
Vain.
Cold but speaks warmly.
Cruel but pretends kindness.
Rude but can fake politeness.
Nose in the air.
Sh** doesn't stink.
Ha! I got a good whiff!! Pass the air freshener!!
Sela
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What is the old saying about the devil coming disguised as a friend? I have learned to be wary of people who seem to be too friendly too soon. N's know how to put on the superficial charm, but then gradually transition over to their "real" selves.
After 20 years away from the FOO (where intuition went numb from the constant alarm reaction) I believe my intuition is improving. The gut early feeling that something is "off" about a person usually turns out to be true. And it is an actual physical reaction, sort of like a stab in the stomach.
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Never, ever admits to failure, weakness, or any smidgen of wrong doing.
Yes, definitely. I forgot this one. My mother showed not an ounce of remorse for ruining my credit. The only thing she was worried about was that she had gotten caught. She was ultra super nice to me for a little while because she was afraid I'd tell my dad, which I did, but not right away. I had to torture myself for a few weeks and let it eat at me. In fact, she denied taking out the card and tried to tell me it was someone else's. She wouldn't take the easy route and sign a paper from my attorney, so now this will have to go through court and possibly end up in the prosecutor's hands. If she ends up in a criminal case because of me, I don't feel guilty. I'm just ashamed I have to take my mother to court.
Sneaky.
Underhanded.
Greedy but appears none of these.
Always looking for a target or a weak spot in others and then bombardis it relentlessly.
Uses sarcasm to hurt.
Uses information gained from a person (or elsewhere) against that person.
Sela, you nailed it. All of those. All I can do is nod my head yes.
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What is the old saying about the devil coming disguised as a friend? I have learned to be wary of people who seem to be too friendly too soon. N's know how to put on the superficial charm, but then gradually transition over to their "real" selves.
After 20 years away from the FOO (where intuition went numb from the constant alarm reaction) I believe my intuition is improving. The gut early feeling that something is "off" about a person usually turns out to be true. And it is an actual physical reaction, sort of like a stab in the stomach.
tj, so true. so true. anyone who comes on to me too strongly sets off my radar like mad now.
I just went through that again recently - but this time it was obvious to me that I was being pressured and rushed.
All because the guy didn't want me to have enough time to figure out what he was really like... he was trying to stampede me into overcommitting. So I'd feel 'stuck' and compelled to try to make things work once he began to treat me abusively.
Which is the standard trap, of course. They never intend for things to work. The whole intent is to abuse us, only, always.
But the thing is, he was treating me abusively almost from the get-go. The difference is in me; I see it now, and I'm willing to admit it when I see it; I no longer make excuses for it, and I no longer doubt my own perception.
One thing that really struck me about this guy was his 'phoniness'. I don't know how else to describe it. The more time I spent with the guy, the more it seemed that almost everything about him was 'stagey', some kind of performance. Like a duck blind, with the real person sitting back behind the screen, cold-eyed, just waiting to pounce.
It was a very creepy feeling, and the more time I spent with him, the more intense it became.
Trust that creepy feeling. Trust your gut. When someone feels phony to you, take a good hard look at them...
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Pay attention to bad listeners. Those who never let you finish your statement, because they are so eager to say what the want to say that always interupt you, in reality they are not interested in what you have to say, they think that hwat they are going to say is more important. They make us confuse with the excuse of enthusiasm fur the subject in discussion.
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Yes indeed, Lupita. So true!
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PINK Flags
One (me included) who rushes to judgment about PINK Flags...
tt
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I forgot one more.
Making grand promises and never keeping them.
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There are so many!
I love the real-life examples as opposed to "lying". Well, what do you mean? It's more of an impact if you can tell a story.
So here goes:
(The behavior is manipulation & self-centeredness)
After I met my N, we began dating. Soon after, I heard through the grapevine that as soon as he saw me, his reaction was, "I'm going to marry that girl!" So, onward 2 months after we'd been dating a little while. He's driving me home one night and decides it's time to ask me to marry him. He puts Eddie Money's I think I'm in Love in the tape player. Then he turns to me and says, "You want to get married?" I say, "It would be very stupid of me." (I was still in high school) I said, "I'd have to think about it." So, he pulls the car over and says, "Ok. Think about it."
Arrrrr. Exasperating to me now. Why couldn't I see the manipulation?
Now, he tells that story like it's charming.
Dandylife