Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: steve on January 02, 2007, 04:43:00 PM
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Hello all:
I haven't posted in a long time and have been progressing slowly with this whole N-father thing. Lately, I have just been continuously thinking about my past and the crap I went through from the person who says he loves me (though he has never said it to me in my life = 43 years). Several years ago I made a huge mistake and I lay the blame partly on him and partly on myself for giving any credence to any of his words. The reason I bring it up is that I can not understand how anyone can be so heartless and unsupportive. At present I am barely surviving financially and really have nothing of any significance in my life. I am literally at the bottom point of my existence.
You see, 7 years ago I was completing my Ph.D. program. At that time, my father had decided to retire and left his business in the hands of his brother. Anyways, I was fortunate enough and talented enough to receive a job offer to teach at a prestigous university. It was very uncommon to receive an offer like this before graduating, so I was very pleased. I called up my parents to let them know the good news. His response was basically "ok, but I have a big problem with the business that I need you to take care of". There was no congratulations, no I am proud of you, no I knew you could do it, not even thats great news. Needless to say I was very upset.
Nonetheless, I kept trecking on and within a year this school offered me a tenure track position. Again, something unprecedented from this university. Their salary offer was more than decent with significant escalations once I received my Ph. D. Again, I called my parents to give them the news. His response was " what are they paying you". So reluctantly, I told him my starting salary. His response was "thats all, thats what high school teachers make". Though I knew that his remark was not true, it made me completely devalue my offer. I was so desponded that eventually I did not finish my Ph.D. and I actually turned down the offer. i dipped in to a severe depression which I continue to suffer from even today.
Today i realize that he is worthless as a father but I just cannot understand how someone could be so evil. I have severe doubts in anything I undertake and struggle to complete the most mundane tasks.
Any insights in to my story would be greatly appreciated.
Steve
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Wow. That is certainly a sad story but it doesn't have to end that way. The bottom line is that it is now up to you to change the way you see yourself. It is not easy but based on your academic record if anyone can do it you certainly can do it AND it has been done. Your father's voice is the one that is running your life right now but YOU and only you can change that.
It is easy to say though not necessarily easy to do. What makes it difficult is that his belittling voice has been internalized in subconscious and unconscious parts of your mind and you have to ferret that voice out and replace those demeaning words with positive encouraging ones that, at first, may seem untrue. Persistence and determination will win out and you clearly have both of those.
Don't let your father's hatefulness be a part of you anymore!! - Gaining Strength
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hi steve,
Would your father's business put him on "a lower scale" professionally than you would have been had you continued?
As GS says, "You've already proven yourself..... "....that you can do it, so recommence me lad, recommence!
I have serious questions as to whether my raging father was an N After he retired from farming and moved to the city, he worked for the hospital. I was in the same city and he was always treating our salaries as being competetive! I hated that. Well so did he when I was making more than he was. Then he'd get a raise and surpass me and each time I wished he'd just leave the topic alone.
That's whyIi asked that question at the outset!
isit....... :lol:
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Hi Steve and Welcome,
Do you think you did what you did to fulfill your Dad's ideas of you? I kow as a teen I was treated like I was sexually motivated in spite of being completely innocent at the time.... I did manage to be quite wild for a while and show a true lack of compassion for others in relationships... It was taboo, and I was the naughty one... so I was supposed to act that way, it seemed.I let my mother set my identity...And I acted out in the ways she "expected" me to.
What do you think? Does this correlate to you giving up a great prospect?
Where do you plan to go from here? Are you ready to see yourself as you really are? (Intelligent, capable, accomplished...)?
Keep posting, it really helps.
Love, Beth
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Hi Steve,
(Glad you are here)
Your post is so painful to read because we know how hurtful and paralyzing our toxic family etc can be. My heart aches for your pain you are experiencing as I am also enraged for you.
Please share more, you sound like you are in a huge need of support...a gentle place to be. I have found be realeasing all that those toxic tapes they protrude on us is very much helpful.
YOU are wonderful, and all that you have accomplished. Can you imagine taking that energy and hard work and directing it to yourself, LOVE you, HOLD you, HEAL you, of course softly and slowly. A step at a time?
Sending much energy and strength to pick yourself up, we can help, we can hold you...Take our hand...seasons
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Hi Steve,
I like to think of you standing in a safe private place, yelling at the top of your lungs:
I DON'T KNOW WHAT PART OF YOU IS BROKEN BUT I WILL NOT LET YOUR EMOTIONAL CRUELTY CRIPPLE ME!
I HAVE A LIFE AND I AM WORTHY OF HAPPINESS!
I AM GOING TO CREATE MY OWN DEFINITION OF SUCCESS AND DO IT FOR MYSELF!
I WILL NOT LET YOU LIVE IN MY BRAIN ANY LONGER!
WHEN I HEAR YOUR VOICE IN MY HEAD I AM GOING TO YELL BACK AND CONTRADICT YOU!
I HAVE LEARNED FROM MY LOSSES AND I DO NOT CARE WHERE I BEGIN, THE PAST IS PAST AND I WILL BEGIN FROM WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW!
(Sorry for yelling. But do you think it would help you to yell? Not at him...that's pointless, he's deaf. But at the universe. To declare yourself here, and as worthy of creating your own happiness as any other born human.)
Hops
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Steve,
I know exactly how you feel. You see, my mother did exactly the same thing to me when I was about to graduate from college. I was offered a good job that I really wanted and that was something of a long shot for me to get. Her response to the offer caused me to devalue it and ultimately reject it. I have regretted the decision ever since, and I have spent most of my adult life under-employed and risk-averse.
As I grew into adulthood, that job offer became just one illustration of an increasingly undeniable fact: My mother didn't want me to be happy. She didn't want me to achieve my goals. She didn't want me to connect with other people and develop a successful life independent of her.
Why? Who knows? And really, who cares? Once I genuinely accepted my mother's deficiencies--appalling though they were--I gradually came to realize that it's not up to me to explain them. I will never know the "why" of what she did to me. The important thing, for me, was to see things as they were (and are), to really understand that she does not create my experience, to listen to voices besides hers.
I am your age (43). My job offer happened over 20 years ago. Leaving a few years for graduate school, I imagine yours happened at least 15 years ago. Isn't it time to stop beating ourselves over the head with one missed opportunity and go forward? There's still a lot of time left, and while neither of us is going to be a wunderkind at our age, that's no reason to devote our lives to bitterness.
As you know, my mother died in 2006. While I miss her, I also feel an undeniable freedom, a lightness of spirit that I have not felt in many years. I don't have to worry about what to tell her, or what her reaction will be, ever again. I did my best to help her, but now I must show the same level of energy and concern in helping myself.
That doubt you feel is the internalized voice of your father. It may sound and feel like your own thought, but it isn't. And "realizing" that he's "worthless" as a father is only a small, small part of what you need to do. The harder task is to make your peace with the parts of him that you carry around in your own character. If your journey is anything like mine, you will be confused, angry, and hurt. It will take years. There will be moments when you aren't at all sure where the line is between hating yourself and hating the father-in-you. And the hardest part of all will be extending honest compassion and love to yourself--both the adult you are and the child you were--because only by doing that can you silence the incessant drumbeat of not-worthy-not-worthy-not-worthy that accompanies everything you do.
But I believe it is possible. I believe there's an "other side" to how you feel, and that you can get there. You can reclaim the person you are. You can listen to the voices that believed, and believe, in you, instead of those that don't.
You ask how anyone can be so evil. Steve, people are a great deal more evil than your father, or my mother. I refuse to give my mother any more power by demonizing her. She did what she did, and I have to clean up the mess. But so does everybody. Personally, I count myself very fortunate because I am not subject to the same forces. I can break free. I can see, and act on what I see.
And so can you. If you are depressed, you need to get treatment. Personally, I think this journey is impossible without a therapist, but of course that's an individual decision. But please know that you are not alone, and that we are all pulling for you.
best,
daylily
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BTW Steve,
My mother thinks my professional life is worthless, as is my degree. If I ever complain about anything at work, she justs says I should quit. She has no respect or understanding for what I do. Meanwhile, my sister just became a doctor and she can talk about someone farting in a room and it is a fascinating story. I have a master's degree from a great school and her take on it was that my field was "easy for me." That is what I was told all through school and college... that I did well in things that were "easy for me." But that my sister really "worked." Amazing, huh? And in a way, I still feel that about myself... that I am worthless and just somehow skated by...
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Steve and all,
You know you can never get inside another person's head to know what makes them think the way they do--but I think I have a pretty good idea of what an N is thinking when they devalue your accomplishments and sabotage your success.
N's think there is only a limited amount of happiness and accomplishment to go around. If you take a big chunk, it will leave less for them. They can't live with that, so they try to take your chunk! If you can lose it--they might get it back.
Stupid thinking--they would never consciously admit it. But I think I'm right.
CB
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gratitude28
And in a way, I still feel that about myself... that I am worthless and just somehow skated by...
Oh gratitude that is so painful to hear. Knowing the truth is the complete opposite. I hope you can claim your hardwork and take back your deserving accomplishments. I am so proud of YOU! ((hugs always)) seasons
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Yes, I know it's not true... but sometimes you just get that ugly feeling that creeps up :( Not so much anymore. I have to say, I am mostly surrounded by people who love and appreciate me... and boy does it make a difference! My kids and dog think I am the best thing since sliced bread :lol: Seriously, sometimes I realize that my talents are special, but, as I have told my kids, I believe all people are gifted in an area (or two) and are so fortunate if they can find that area and develop it.
Funny how the N never realizes that. They think there are "special people" in the world and they are amongst them.
Thank you for your kind words, seasons. You have been a lovely addition to the board. Your posts are helpful and bring out fresh points for us all to discuss.
Love, Beth
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Steve
At some point Steve can you see he envy's you your youth your ability to love .
Maybe you do not need this man's approval and maybe he will not ever change.
Please do not let him stop your life.
It can be a beautiful life if we let ourselves see it....
rainbow
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I just wanted to apologize for not looking back at your post as I wrote my reply. I can't edit it because I posted as a guest. The events you refer to happened seven years ago, as you clearly stated. Please excuse me for not getting that right.
daylily
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Feel a need to go back on something I realised a few weeks ago having read this thread. Getting rid of that internalized abusive voice is one of the hardest things to do. I am just detaching from it. It has taken a long time and has been a painful process. It is as if the Nparents write the script and we play it out. To change the script takes vigilant awareness, hard hard work. Each time I hear that voice or any of the Nvoices in my life I stop and without judgement say to myself in a very very gentle voice "I am punishing me"....... this is not me critizing me I say it as if it is a fact, like the sun is shining today. Somehow this has released me from the voice. I do not want to punish myself for THEIR twisted hatred any longer. It is such a simple exercise and for me it is making a difference.
I believe it takes time to purge yourself of this virus but it is possible.
So sad to witness all the pain that has been thrust on the people here.
axa
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axa,
It does take time, and, even moreso, sometimes you don't realize that there is a voice you don't want. I recognize new ones seemingly as soon as I have dealt with another. I have a new one this week... the one that says that there is something wrong with a person if they show any interest in me. If a man is kind to me, I assume he is a loser and no women like him and that's why he would be sweet. If a woman is nice to me, I assume she is in some way sick and that's why she would want to be friends with me.
I am trying to sort this all out now. I am a nice person and a good friend. But I am going to choose my friends now by how they treat me and not think that they are defective because they like me.
What a ball of confusion.
Along with this, I realized that what brought this about was a lot of the "image" my mother projected on me. Remember those skinny jeans that zipped on the bottom (and are coming back into style now)? That was one of the styles I really wanted to wear. And my calves are big. Had I had a poroer mother, she would have pointed out that I had a very sporty and nice figure (I really did). Instead I was told that my body type (grimace from her) just didn't fit into styles like that. She pointed that out as much as possible. Even this past summer, visiting, she took a lunchtime to explain how she had a hot figure like my sister's, then paused and said, well, no I guess nowadays I look more like you... i.e. she is getting uglier. Nice, huh? Conversations always revolved around my hip size, thigh size, dress size... you name it. That has been the most important thing to her about me... where I am on the scale.
Thanks for letting me pour this all out.
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth,
I recommend we all gather in a room with your mother and fart in unison until we are a tuba symphony. THAT'LL drown her out.
I like you and am not a sicko. (This week.)
Therefore, other people who like you are probably just as terrific as I am. (She said, modestly.)
You have to admit I have impeccable logic.
PHOOEY on her petty jealous competitive belittling b******t!
Definitely time to drown that woman out. She's yammered loud enough long enough in your head.
HUSH UP, Beth's mother! You just hush up!
Peace and quiet (and self-cuddling) in the head of Beth.
hugs,
Hops
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Hi Daylily,
I just want to tell you what a magnificent post you wrote to Steve.
A wonderful, put-your-heart-in-it and put-it-to-USE kind of message.
It helped me too. Thanks!
Hops
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Hopsy,
The truth is, there are so many wonderful and amazing people in my life... And you are among the best of 'em :) It's just erasing the tape... as axa said...
Steve... are you still out there????? Your topic gave us all some healing. Did it help you? Are you ready to talk more???
Love, Beth
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Steve,
I am so sorry that you were treatly so hatefully and not recognized for your academic and professional achievements. I spent many years of my career working at universities (in administration, not academics) and I know that for you to be offered a tenure-track position so quickly means that your department chair and mentors HAD A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF RESPECT FOR YOU AND GREAT HOPES FOR YOUR FUTURE CONTRIBUTIONS IN YOUR FIELD OF STUDY. I know that, and I say "congratulations" and "pooey" on your father.
I have recently also been replaying in my mind some bad, horrible, scenes with my Nmother. Sometimes I barely sleep for many nights as I relive the shame and hate and confusion. Maybe I have an advantage since I live alone and don't bother anyone - but here's what I do: I write "affirmations" on paper in big red magic marker and stick these up on the wall in my hallway. Sometimes there may be as many as 50 or 60 pieces of paper attached to the walls and hall closet doors. They say "it wasn't your fault," "there was nothing wrong with you - you were normal," "you are not responsible for your mother's happiness," and sometimes they refer to specific incidents - I re-write those incidents to have my mother saying the things that I imagine normal loving parents would say. Sometimes I re-write them to say what I wish I had had the wisdom to say when I was 12.
I read these affirmations in the morning, walking down the hall while I'm brushing my teeth. I read one or two aloud as I walk to the bathroom. I read several pages of them before I leave for work. I read every single page at night, before I go to bed. I cry at first, but I find myself able to sleep almost the day I write them. After several days, the "instant replay" of the particular instance that haunted me stops playing. Even months later it is as though that instance has healed. I don't know how long it will take me to get through 43 years worth of instances, but this has helped me from that constant replay, the if onlys, the why mes, and the how could you have done this to someone you loveds that keep me awake.
Hugs to you, Steve. Have you thought of returning to your academic pursuits? Then we can call you "Dr. Steve." It's not too late, and the world needs brilliant minds in our universities to advance our thinking, improve our lives. There is no better career than one dedicated to discovery and the education of young minds!
JL
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Hi Jayelle,
I like your idea of the affirmations. It seems to me that I'm not as far along in this process because I wouldn't even know where to start. It takes a lot of courage, in my opinion, to write these things down and then read them outloud. I'm not sure why I'm not ready for that yet. It seems like it would help a lot. Some things I have talked about with my husband. And some things I have posted about here. It took a lot out of me those times. It is really hard to do what you're doing. It's a good goal for me to have to maybe write some affirmations of my own. But I can tell I have some guilt still. About "accusing" I guess. I know what should have been done for me and wasn't. But I think I must still have some fear in there. Irrational fear, of course, since nobody but me would read my affirmations, stories, and should have saids.
I want to try to do what you are doing. It seems like it would help.
Pennyplant
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Hey Steve,
It's so hard isn't it when you are desperate for recognition from the one person who isn't going to give it. I bet so many other people congratulated you and told you what an achievement it was but if you are anything like me none of those would have made any difference as you would have been waiting for that praise that you were so longing for.
At 44 I am now finally realising that I am not going to get it. I am a trained psych nurse, have worked my way up the career ladder and am now working as a commissioner. This is a massive achievement but ny Nmums responses have never been what I would have wished. She believes psych nurses are 'the lowest of the low' She believes I chose to work with schizophrenia because.... are you ready for this... 'It is demonic... and that would make me feel at home'... When I enthusiastically try to explain commissioning to her she tells me it is much too difficult to understand....
Somehow youu need to get to a place where you do it for you.. I have been through therapy and have just started a course of anti depressants. Do what you can.. anything and everything. I know it is hard but do it a little at a time... You are 43.. that is young. I suffer from feelings that I have wasted my life being this way.. but I am realising that I would rather start truly living it now for me than just write it off...
You are worth so much more than this one person's opinion.. he will not do anything to change but you can...
Lots and lots of love and support,
Spyralle x
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Steve,
The posts to you have been so much of what I also want to say. The sad thing is that only you can stop that negative voice and the wonderful thing is that YOU have the power to stop that voice. I recall how difficult it was for me to look in the mirror and SEE who was there. Not the ugly big eared stupid b.... my mother told me but a frail and sad person who really wanted to be seen. To be seen and heard by the world I am learning I need to see and hear me, otherwise it does not work.
Like Spyarelle I have discounted the "good" voices and clung to the Bad in the hope something would change. My Nparents died and never acknowledged me in any loving way. They did not know how. They could not and would not do it. It is difficult painful work but there is life. Come on, Dr Steve.
My sister went to a psychic (sic) after my mother died. The message she got from mother was that she never understood what life was about and now in the afterlife knows that it is about spiritual growth. Well, for the first time in my life I agreed with my mother and she was DEAD!!!!
Keep posting
axa
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I agree with your mother too Axa... I have had a similar experience and now I am pretty sure that's what we are here for.. That in itself has helped to focus me and make me more determined..
Spyralle x
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Steve:
While reading your post, I got the stabbing sensation in my throat to scream and cry all at once. I did not know there was another person who had been harmed on their life journey similar to me. I just discovered this board.
Truly I hope you can love and cherish yourself and pick yourself up and move forward.
I am 53 and have worked entry level jobs for a long time, although I was a talented artist, specializing in portrait drawing and painting. My college art professor told me I had more power in my little finger than most people have in their whole body. But mother told me that was not a real profession and I should find a real profession like nursing. Mother let me know from the beginning that my thoughts and feelings had no real value, so don't even waste my breath.
My earliest memory was her response to my painful experiences in first grade when I was being teased because of the clothes I wore. 'They're just jealous.' The clothes I wore were free clothes that someone gave her - nothing wrong with that- but what about, 'what can we do about this?'
No one could ever imagine the hundreds of times I have been interrupted. If a friend is over when I answer a phone call, they always know if mother called, because in the 5, 10, 15 minute phone call, all I say is Hello and Goodbye (I am not exaggerating)....because, again, I do not have anything of real value to say. Once I thought I could have a leg amputated and my parents would not ever know about it. They never ask about me and they don't give me the opportunity to talk- but they've got that "I love you" down pat. If I am in the room with them, they do not look at me - they look at the wall while they are talking - they are not really talking to me - they are talking 'at' something.
She started picking my friends as a teenager because she had read my diaries and decided who she wanted to pick because I was incapable of making that kind of choice. (I burned my diaries, by the way, with that stabbing sensation in my throat)
As I grew older my opportunities for relationships passed me by because I had no idea how to respond to anyone showing interest in me as a person. I knew how to have fun, but that's about it. My anxieties grew and I began to medicate with alcohol and Valium, and made a lot of regrettable choices during that time. My parents even managed to have me committed to a mental institution for a few days because they convinced the state that I was suicidal and depressed. Yes, they came to visit and told me how much they loved me.
Finally I moved to another state, found a good therapist, and actually had a few happy years, and some professional success...between bad relationships.
I have always tried (unconsciously) to have relationships with men who are emotionally unavailable because that has been my familiar zone. So, my memorable relationships have been with alcohol or drug addicts - even when I have been straight...and most alcoholics and drug addicts die or go away.
(My sister's life is much like mine but she has never been able to give up substance abuse)
Now I am 53 - I have a teenage son who has been all sorts of trouble - but one thing I am sure that he has - is self esteem and confidence. I have listened carefully to his thoughts and needs. In fact, he may even be a little arrogant.
To me, it does not matter how much talent you have, or money or other resources....You must have confidence and self esteem. I am glad I had the opportunity to get that right - for him....and I would not have been able to do that had I not known the recurring pain of of having no voice, no value.
I still call her - when something really good or interesting happens - and still the same thing happens - I say hello and 15 minutes later I get the opportunity to say goodbye...My heart sinks every time....Why do I keep repeating this behavior? Am I hoping that after all of these years that this one time it will be different? That she will ask, 'How are you?' and 'What did you do today?'
Actually, in having the opportunity to post here, I see that I have be the one to ask myself 'How are you?' and 'What did you do today?' I am really struggling right now to be alive again. I have been calculating losses and that is not good at all. It has been really good for me post here, to go through what has happened to relieve some of the burden of guilt. I can see it is not all my fault.
Steve, follow your dreams.
Thanks,
Becky
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Welcome, Becky.
Your honesty is breathtaking.
I can't imagine you doing anything but growing.
(53 is very youthful...)
Glad you're here. You've been through a hell of a lot. Good for you for how you're parenting your boy. Yup, sounds like you are getting ready to parent yourself.
I know how agonizing it would be to get the wrong answer, which you would likely, but part of me wants to say on your behalf: HEY, MOTHER. I REALLY WANT YOU TO SAY TO ME, HOW ARE YOU DOING? WHAT DID YOU DO TODAY? I NEED TO HEAR THAT. I NEED US TO TAKE TURNS.
Sorry for the caps. I am up fighting sleep and dealing with mother issues myself. My heart hurts for you. But that ain't pity. You sound like a strong and differentiated person to me. I think you have a distinct, real voice.
I look forward to hearing more.
(Wish Steve would respond. Yo, Steve...?)
Hopalong
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Steve!
So many people have responded, myslef included, asking questions and we don't hear from you.
WHY?
If this were me I would be amazed at how many people in this Forum are so caring, helpful amd supportive.
Good Lord! I exposed myself and people responded. How supported I felt!!!
I feel like I could get up and walk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and where are you????
Izzy
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rbeck,
Thank you for sharing here. Once again think your mom and mine were sisters. i recall when NMom would call as soon as she would say hello I would dispassionately ask What do you want? Everytime I picked up the phone to call her I would say to myself "you are setting yourself up, she will take from you and give you nothing good" in time my contact petered out. much healthier for me.
Glad you are here
axa
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Becky,
I'm so glad you found us! This is a wonderful, supportive group that will give you lots of feedback and encouragement in your journey. Your story sounds so familiar to me--and probably to all of us. That's the beauty of talking to people who have been where you've been. There is so much that you have to share that needs no explanation or justification with us. We have been through similar experiences and you are able to begin "in the middle" so to speak and then fill in your story around the edges. Please come back and share with us as you heal.
About Steve--someone recently said that if you really want to understand a poster, go back to their old posts. I have done that when I can and it really does help me understand where someone on the board is coming from. Steve usually comes on and posts and then disappears for a long while. I think that telling his story is cathartic for him and he isn't looking for the response that follows. We love to help, don't we? But that probably won't be our role in this interchange.
The good news is, Steve's posts usually spark a good discussion and, as in this case, encourage a new poster to participate in the board. So....it's all good.
CB