Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: WRITE on January 13, 2007, 06:09:12 PM
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does anyone else have trouble putting boundaries around each negative experience and keeping the emotions in check? I really struggle when like today it's a hard day, but even though it worked out, now I can't just set it aside and think 'it's just a bad day'. Is this perfectionism at its insidious work again?
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My God, CB.
I am truly sorry.
I can't believe what cowards "authorities" often are; or how often men stick together at the expense of women and children.
...how I wish you had that jerk shrink's words on tape.
I think what's really crucial is who gets full custody though.
Has that worked in your favor? Do you have a lawyer you can talk this over with?
I'm so sorry for this sickening experience. I remember drawing a line in the sand when it came to joint custody. I would not do it. How absurd to think you could do that with this creep!
Don't you give up. Your kids are as smart as their mother and your ex will get bored as you don't supply him any more. The process will still wind through to its close, and he'll surely be off to new sources of attention.
Woman, you need 3-D ALLIES in your life.
Getting off the farm and getting settled and getting a new life is going to steady you.
Hang in there, this is a rough wave, but you are going to be okay.
Hops
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CB,
Don't know what to say other than I hear you and think you are amazing.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxaxa
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CB,
I think this can be genuine kindness mixed with a lot of blind patronizing:
He has been extremely kind and personable to me. But he has a kind of let-the-boys'-handle-it attitude
When I went to choose my attorney (on the advice of a lawyer friend, I "interviewed" the top 3 divorce attorneys in town, also a smallish town, which would prevent my ex from using any of them)....anyway, I wound up choosing a woman. She had a reputation as a barracuda, and although it was never necessary in our case for her to go on attack, she would have if needed.
This is the type of attorney I wish you had in your corner. You DO have a right to aggressive represenation and fierce advocacy. You know what the realities are, you know what's at stake...the boys' club doesn't and whether or not they may be nice individually, they fundamentally don't care. I'm sorry to be cynical but I don't think most lawyers are preoccupied with justice.
It's not too late for you to consult with a different attorney, especially given these developments. Are there any powerful female domestic lawyers you could speak to? I think it would be worth your time. Even if nothing would change, you'd know you'd left no stone unturned.
I think you WERE betrayed by that psychologist, and I think you have every right to react. (Although years of living with an N often make us forget that)...
love and lots of support,
Hops
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does anyone else have trouble putting boundaries around each negative experience and keeping the emotions in check? I really struggle when like today it's a hard day, but even though it worked out, now I can't just set it aside and think 'it's just a bad day'. Is this perfectionism at its insidious work again?
I sure do. And it's a big challenge. The negative event seems to repeat like a loop tape in my mind. Just about drove me nuts when I was a manager dealing with a lot of difficult employee situations. Have been trying meditation and yoga to work with it. I try to remind myself things are all right NOW.
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sorry CB123 ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
my biggest hurt in all this is the disillusionment I feel about those authority figures who occupy their positions for who-know-what-reasons. They are totally blase about the suffering of those they have the opportunity to help
sometimes it feels like the most uncaring place in the world- bucketloads of sentimentality and false support and friendship and no substance or depth.
Why do people say things they don't truly mean to follow through on?????
negative event seems to repeat like a loop tape in my mind. Just about drove me nuts when I was a manager dealing with a lot of difficult employee situations. Have been trying meditation and yoga to work with it. I try to remind myself things are all right NOW.
it's even worse with the bipolar and of course doomsday man as my ex....
Today was if anything worse in terms of negative feedback.
But I had a nice night out last night with the divorce support group, and I'm not crying or falling apart.
Just sad and lonely.
I'll sit with that then....
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Hey, (((((((Write))))))
Having had a nice night out and not falling apart is sometimes a really triumphant thing.
Congratulations on weathering this weekend in that state. Good for you.
love,
Hops
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Wow, your story sounds so much like mine. I had a therapist that work with my ex-husband and I totally betray me. Like yours he told me that my husband was abusive to me and the children but when my ex husband asked him what did he think of his behavior the therapist didn't have the balls to tell him. I remember the feeling of devastation that the therapist couldn't step up to the plate when it mattered.
I too had a male lawyer. He downplayed the abuse, told me I could never get sole custody and basically I have had to deal with the kids issues below the radar(husband doesn't believe in testing or therapy fortunately I have found therapist that know how nuts he is and have help me deal with all the issues.). I have taken the tactic of never complaining about his erratic parenting, underminding tactics, and abusive comments on the rare occasions we have to speak. I've oftened wondered if a female attorney could have helped me deal with the situation more effectively. My youngest is now in high school and I'm getting quite good at letting the craziness roll off my back. Unfortunately, narcissist do whatever they want to do, particularly wealthy narcissist.
In some ways I think your lawyer is right...unless your husband is beating the kids or really causing great mental harm kids need to learn how to have some type of a relationship with their father, even if it is an unhealthy relationship. I always tell them his bad behavior is not about them. If you have one healthy parent that is there and validating their reality and they know they can count on that parent they can survive the bad parent. By the time they are 14 the can choose to spend less time with him if he is being inappropriate.
Good luck.
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Gap what you wrote makes lots of sense to me. It is just so bloody hard CB the relentless undermining and the feeling of abandonment by those who "know about these behaviours". I think there is some kind of conspiracy going on in society whereby so many people look away from abuse. Like it was not so bad IT BLOODY WAS AND IS.
Emotional abuse is every bit as damaging as physical abuse. I know this. I have been battered, you can't see the scars but they are there. Everyone on this board has been battered. I want to name that. If each of us was walking around wearing our wounds on our faces or with black eyes and bloody nose society would acknowledge our truth. Well I feel that I am wounded and bleeding and the world apart from here is saying to me, Oh well he was not that bad, you did travel a lot with him. I want to screa F... Off I can travel on my own, I gave this scumbag my heart and he punched and ripped and tore it.
ITS NOT OK
Axa
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Dear Axa,
That is why this board is so important. Unless you have been in the line of fire, unless you were raised by narcissist and married to a narcissist you can't understand. My father, also a N, would say to me at my lowest moments, I just don't get why you took the abuse, I would have done such and such. Yeah dad, if you hadn't allowed me to be abused by my mother and brothers, if you hadn't told me sticks and stones would break my bones...., if you had taught me what real love feels like, real unconditional love, I too never would have taken the abuse. I would have seen the red flags of a narcissist miles away and run. I would have had enough sense of self to never allow another human being to treat me in such horrible ways, I would neverr have questioned myself and my sanity. I wouldn't have spent my childhood trying to be lovable or 20 plus years trying to be good enough to be treated with respect. Healthy parents would have been thrilled to have me as their child, a normal man would have appreciated all I have to offer as a wife.
I think the reason many people have such trouble understanding is that they can't possibly comprehend the wounds we have that allow us to stay and take the abuse in the first place. Abusive people don't get to healthy people, after much therapy I can actually be in the path of abuse, see it for what it is, processes it and not let it bring me down (most of the time). Mechanisms healthy people have for dealing with abuse we have to develope thru therapy and knowledge, are parents programmed us to be receipients of abuse. We are the second half of the abuse puzzle, without people that react and respond to abuse the abuser is rendered powerless...that is why healthy people have trouble comprehending our plight in life. The problem is my parents simply taught me the rhyme, they didn't give me the tools to make words not hurt or the strength and confidence to walk away...that I had to teach myself.
GAP
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WRITE - I can't quite get a complete understanding of your experience but I'm going to offer a suggestion from the best of my understanding. If I undestand what you are saying then perhaps you can "practise" setting it aside. Each and every tme the darkness of it comes up meet it with appropriate thoughts. Don't give up. This is a difficult process. It is about retraining your mind and your brain. It may take longer than you would like but don't give up. The more you work on the the better it will get and then you will strengthen this tool over time.
I'm curious about how it it is still effecting you and uncertain about what you mean by " I can't just set it aside and think 'it's just a bad day'. " But more than anything I am sorry you are struggling. - your friend - Gaining Strength
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He recommended co-parenting and standard visitation.
What a shock that he would so blatentl contradict himself! Of course it feels like a betrayal.
I still hold out hope that I will be proved wrong. But this is very, very hard.
Don't hold out hope CB123. Strategically you need to prepare for the opposite. That's how men think and you have entered the world of the court system which operates only on rules and has zero concern for the humanity of the effects of rules. We as women approach life very differently. I encourage you to approach your new attorney as a partner in strategy not as your advocate. I learned this from experience. Strategize about how you can get the custodial rights that will make your life and your children's lives tolerable. Strategizae about how you can ge the psychologist to work on your behalf rather than as a milktoast. I really belive that will help. What you have encountered is appalling but not terribly surprising. Now is time to learn to play by their rules. You are in my thoughts and prayers. - GS
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Gap,
I agree with what you said. I too was programmed for abuse and have been working hard for the past 15 years trying to relearn how to live. I have made small improvements over the years but I have made improvements. Even though I was in a relationship with an N for the past three years somehow towards the final six months I took on the role of the observer often. I would watch him, watch myself, see what was happening. It took some time and many times I lost my awareness and got stuck in there with him. But the day I told him leave I was so clear that I was not willing to put up with another minute of his bull ever again in my life. This has been a first for me.
I SAW I was nothing other than supply, absolutly nothing........ and seeing this freed me. I was like his car that gave him pleasure. I was an object. Through this I saw that there never was any love on his part. It was all calculated, practical games to get his needs met, nothing more.
I just feel so lucky I am not contaminated by that toxic POS (rude words) any more.
Working on me now and can feel the rewards of that work.
xxxAXA
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Dear Axa,
It does take two to continue the dance. One of my children has some of her father's tendencies. Over Christmas she started "the game" and my son said later, "I can't believe you reacted to her and started try to appease her." When I read your post I realize I need to be an observer when I'm around her and never participate when she tries to drag me down her slippery slope. In a strange way my reacting gives her power, just as it gave her father power.
GAP
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Isnt that issue of what we "deserve" really behind why we put up with the N's in our lives?
Thanks CB123. I have come to realize that this whole issue of what I "deserve" underlies the whole of my struggles with money and making money. Underneath, deep in a place where it isn't fully conscious and where I can't completely get to it I was trained to understand that I don't deserve much, I don't deserve comfort, I don't deserve friends.
What a terrible thing for a parent to do to an offspring but then again my grandparents did it to my father. What a great thing it will be for me to undo all of that for myself. Thanks for reminding me that I am going to put "DESERVING" at the top of my list under "Attitude change" which is the top goal for the new year. Thanks as always - Gaining Strength
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WRITE - I am concerned that you have disappeared from this thread. Yesterday I felt that the whole topic had been hijacked and it never quite went back. I am truly interested in continueing your thread. - GS
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oops CB123, I wasn't very thoughtful in the way I posted. My apologies. I found your response to be direct to WRITE's response and the conversation that followed quite a natural flow. But I checked back today because I was interested in what WRITE's response might be.
My choice of words was poor. I don't think the topic was "hijacked" but it became diverted. There really is a difference and I was not thoughtful in my post. I really am sorry. - GS
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If I remember correctly, WRITE no longer has a computer of her own and can only check in quickly from the library or her ex's place. It's probably not too worrisome that she is here less--I think it's an access thing for now.
Pennyplant
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Yes that's true Pennyplant. I was doing a little projecting. Thanks for the reminder. - GS
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PP is right- I hardly have any computer time, don't worry I will shout out if I need to ask for help, I know y'all care about me as I do you.
Yesterday I had another bad day at work. I think I told you about the lady who has been sabotaging one of my projects, and I was asked to give her some space and just keep things going because she is ill. Well now she's actually gone for her treatment and I went to work feeling positive and ready to get on with the next programme, but I went to put some stuff on her desk and there was mail addressed to me which had been opened and not passed on!
I just don't know what to think any more, is she nuts, malicious, jealous...but I can see clearly now that being nice to her hasn't worked well, and her boss's idea of let's wait and see how she is when she comes out of hospital reads to me like- you do all the work whilst she's off because otherwise the project will fall about then when she comes back she can carry on bullying you and I'll keep makign excuses for her and then you can leave anyway....
Not sure what to do, my instinct is to finish and speak to the director; her immediate boss doesn't want me to do that because she might get fired or in trouble ( they're buddies )
I feel this is important to me to follow through and pay attention because it's where I have got into problems before in relationships as well as work- at what point to you stop giving of yourself and forgiving and harden your heart and disengage.
I prayed last night and it was as clear to me as anything that I need not to be there- the whole organisation is unhealthy and though I have been trying to do a good job it's not the first priority of that organisation. I'm wasting my energy and time trying to be reasonable with an unreasonable person too.
Goodness, typing that made it all much clearer.
Wish I had more computer time :( It's hard for me to work through things without writing them.
Last night I did settle down and tell myself 'it's just a bad day', watched The Da Vinci Code. Quite an exciting movie; I couldn't finish the terrible book version.
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Dear Write,
I think some of the stuff in the middle of this thread really is related to what you are talking about....when do we trust our gut, recongnize a situation is bad, recognize we are beating our head against a wall and walk away. When we find ourselves in situations that are impossible why are we second guessing ourselves, churning the situation over and over...how did we allow these things to happen in the first place? Clearly someone opening your mail is wrong, clearly the relatiionship between your two office co workers is inaapropriate and contributing to alot of problems.
I have spent to much of my life giving people that don't deserve the benefit of the doubt the benifit of the doubt. If it smells like a fish and looks like a fish it is a fish....yet when red flags appear I try to explain them away and ignore them. If it feels like an unhealthy working enviorment for you then it is and unhealthy working enviorment for you. Sometimes I think I'm drawn to the drama of dealing with difficult situations. When I find myself in situtuations like you are in I realize that I must assess if there is any hope of it improving. If there is none, I must do what I can do to protect my sanity, get my part of the job done and start formulating a game plan for moving on.
Being trained to feel responsible for problems and other people's behavior puts us into the emotional cycle of rehashing all the negative events of the day. What we need to know is that unless we did something wrong, people's bad behavior is about them and not us. And even if we did something wrong the reaction should be appropriate for the oversight or else the over reaction is not about us.
Hope you figure out a way to get yourself in a better situation.
GAP
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If it feels like an unhealthy working enviorment for you then it is and unhealthy working enviorment for you.
Being trained to feel responsible for problems and other people's behavior puts us into the emotional cycle of rehashing all the negative events of the day.
These two statements jumped out at me GAP, thank you. That's how I need to think, trust myself, and realise that it's a form of anxiety triggered when I don't.
I want to build up my self-image at a core level if you know what i mean, so things don't shake me and make me feel always somehow wrong- even when I intellectually know I am right.
I think there's no point talking to the buddies- I have to decide whether to take it further and involve the director.
I don't think there's any point in trying to work with the woman, but the other decision is should I just leave and let the project fail. How much is that my responsibility? They aren't supporting me in any way.
I do feel this is a safe way to wrok these things out because nothing can really harm me from it- I'm not emotionally attached to the people who are being unpleasant, and I don't need the position.
But I will not be bullied out of there either.
Thanks CB, I have had to do everything in writing for weeks because the strange woman kept hearing things I wasn't saying or refusing to cooperate. I copy everything to her buddy boss, who I suspect may also be struggling with her job. I only ever have problems with people at work who are insecure about their position, that is a pattern; most people think I am a pain in the backside because I'm so intense but love me anyway because I'm good at what I do and make it fun.
I think I have a problem with the letting go of people though, the writign them off. I was at another job today and one of my colleagues and friends said when asked how she was getting on with a problem employee, 'oh she's just a bitch!' She has tried and now written her off.
I keep comign back to my religious beliefs and thinkign I must love everyone more....I'm very muddled up with all this lately since I've been trying to be a more commited Christian.
Edit out any whining (I always have to do that
me too. I am terrible for waffling around the point too...
Well I got a bit longer on the computer tonight, I'm staying in with my son because of the ice storm warning.
Think I'll go get another DVD, I have been watching movies a lot and enjoying them, seem to concentrate better than on reading.
My colleague gave me a lovely picture of me and the patient who died last week, I feel much happier now I have something to hold and look at; it's hard working for myself when it's stressful, no where to put the feelings and no one at home to share them with, not even a computer to come tell you guys or the puppy to curl up with.
But what am I goign to say 'it's just a bad day'.
Someone else said you have to get in the moment and tell yourself 'it's okay NOW' as in this minute, rather than being fearful about the future and always feeling like this; thanks whoever said that, and for all your advice and support.
Love
~W
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I want to build up my self-image at a core level if you know what i mean, so things don't shake me and make me feel always somehow wrong- even when I intellectually know I am right.
I think you are building yourself up. Compare your experience here with other times. You ran into this woman, made an effort, realized your effort won't effect her and have decided she needs to be avoided as much as possible. That is remarkably good effort in short order. You didn't get enmeshed. You are definitely approaching the point where it doesn't sting - that's the next level. You are on your way there.
I think I have a problem with the letting go of people though, the writign them off. I was at another job today and one of my colleagues and friends said when asked how she was getting on with a problem employee, 'oh she's just a bitch!' She has tried and now written her off.
I keep comign back to my religious beliefs and thinkign I must love everyone more....I'm very muddled up with all this lately since I've been trying to be a more commited Christian.
I am working hard to "love everyone more" as well but I try to imagine how Christ does that with me or anyone else. I imagine him watching me make mistakes and feeling sorrow without trying to change me, waiting for me to turn again to him. That's my model of loving those who don't receive my love. You can "love" her with sorrow over her misdirected heart and objectionable actions without needing to stand in her dangerous path. - That's the approach I have been working towards but I confess I have had to go back to square one with my mother. As the hackles go up on my spine I tell myself to respond with love. Right now it's just words but I am practising. - GS
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I think we all need to remember Christ teaching "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." If your neighbor that you loved was being treated the way we have been treated by the "N"s in our lives what would we do. If we witnessed the abuse we would stand up for them, if they told of us their troubles we would console them and advise them to get out of harms way, we would not advise them to try and love their abusers more or continue the suffering by spending time with people that are causing trauma in their life. This does not mean we wish bad tthings to happen to difficult people in our lives it just means in order to love ourselves we must keep ourselves away from people and situations that hurt us, just as we would do for our children, neighbors and friends. In order to love others we must love and respect ourselves and make sure we are treated as well as we treat others; to allow an inbalance in respect is not being true to yourself.
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write,
I didn't read through all the replies, so I hope I am not just repeating what someone else has said... For me, when I can't justify my feelings with what is actually going on around me, it is often PMS. I feel like it is the end of the world for a few days and everything is soooo hard to deal with and sort out... Not sure if this is true for you at all.
Love, Beth
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Dear CB,
Brilliant insight!
GAP
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You know, this is an area that I feel almost bruised in. I suspect that some of my sense that I had no choices came from some dysfunctional religious systems that I was part of. I am still working through that, and I may be a long time coming to grips with it. I sure dont want to open a big can of worms on the board, but I think there is a particularly deadly impact that a religious system has when operated by N's.
I have been cognizant of that, picking up hints from your posts. Those experiences can be so very damaging.
I have had to realize is that love doesnt always look soft and comforting.
I agree and like the way you have phrased it.
So, the way I look at it, the whole idea of love, even the kind taught in Christianity, is pretty complicated.
Yes it is. I knew that when I wrote my post but this straight forward sentence of yours says so much more that what I tried to get across. Well said CB.
I am really processing those videos that Izzy posted and in part thinking of "love" as running towards life. For so long I have protected myself from life. It is difficult to change directions even though that is my fervent desire. That has everything to do with the core dichotomy of love being the opposite of fear. Love is so much larger than that cuddly human expression.
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Hi CB
Your post brought up a rough memory. My D's father, now deceased, was an active alcoholic during our marriage, and though he stopped drinking many years later (in his next marriage), he stayed in denial (never went to therapy for it, or AA).
I had one very tough memory early in our marriage. We were visiting close friends and he drank so much one evening out that he pitched forward on the table right in the path of a candle. I was sitting beside him feeling acutely miserable, angry and desperately worried about his drinking. As his head came down, I chose not to move, actually wishing that he'd have his hair catch on fire (or a bit of it), so he'd finally take it seriously and recognize he had a problem. Meanwhile, our friend reached forward and stopped him and she yelled at me...HOPS! :shock: in a scandalized tone, making it clear that she felt it was my responsibility to stop his fall.
Years later after his death (from liver failure, but it was related to hepatitis he picked up in Africa...still I always wondered if without those two decades of drinking his liver might've been strong enough to survive the virus, as someone he'd passed it to had done)... anyway years, later, his friend said to me, I sure wish I had never stopped him that night.
I sort of think this post is off the point, but anyway...
love,
Hops
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CB
I know what you mean about people saying you can change your behavior and then magically the N will be better. My mother use to tell me if I could be behave differently my husband would be nicer and happier. Just yesterday when I mentioned something he did that was typical N she said well maybe when he finds a woman that makes him happy he will be less vindictive! I mentioned for the 100th time he is never going to be happy, he can only maintain the act for about 3 months, his abuse was real and he has treated every person he has ever had a relationship with in the same abusive manner he treated me. She witnessed the abuse, she was on the receiving end of the abuse yet she still says stupid things indicating I somehow wasn't the right woman for him.
I too grew up in an alcoholic household. The difference was my parents appeared, at least to us, to be the pilliars of society. Since most of the time we spent with them was when they were drinking (my mom would drink secretly in the afternoon well into the evening and my dad drank at lunch and dinner) I didn't realize they were drunk. My mom never appeared drunk and my dad was a happy drunk. Because of the enviorment I grew up in it didn't seem strange that my husband drank ever night. I realized when the kids were little that lifestyle wouldn't work for me. No one in my family can discuss alcoholism because everyone is afraid of a finger being pointed in their direction. If an alcoholic incident happened: fight, pass out in a chair, blow-up a guest in the house, mean comments, rage attack at one of the kids....it was never mentioned again. No one ever discussed feelings or emotions. Dinners were a time to pontificate on our superiority and judge the neighbors and relatives.
When you grow up in a alcoholic household that has a great cover up going on you almost buy into the myth. I often wonder if I had married a nice guy would I never have figured it out, did I marry a N to make me face the co-dependency issues, to force me to learn to stand up for myself and become a better person and mother. Obviously, my ex husband exhibited traits that were familiar and comfortable to me otherwise I wouldn't have married him.
GAP
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Hi CB,
I'm so sorry about your Dad. What awful memories. Rolling down the hill. My god. And the dinner table? Ugggghhhhhhhhh.
You may not have realized I was referring not to my own but to my daughter's father (that was my first husband, and it always feels funny to call him my ex, because...I've had two exes). So, it was my husband, not my father. But I imagine a lot of the feelings were the same.
GAP,
What a mature attitude toward your history. That's a fine example of UNSTUCK thinking. I'm very impressed. I am so sorry you have a mother who would speak to you this way:
she said well maybe when he finds a woman that makes him happy he will be less vindictive!
What does it cost you emotionally to confide in her? It's my usual, but I bet a women's support group would be a healing and empowering place for you to take these troubles, rather than your mother.
Hops
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Please note that I started a new post on this called WHEN LOVED ONES DON'T SUPPORT US.
Hi GAP,
Would you please elaborate on your ideas which I highlighted below:
"My mother use to tell me if I could be behave differently my husband would be nicer and happier."
"..she said well maybe when he finds a woman that makes him happy he will be less vindictive!"
"...yet she still says stupid things indicating I somehow wasn't the right woman for him."
You have verbalized something I used to experience with my N mom. I felt that often, my mom would take the side of my enemy. For example, if I told mom that someone treated me badly, she would often respond with "what did you do to cause it?". Of course this drove me nuts.
If you can, would you, and everyone, please talk about how we turn to people for support and they respond by saying we caused the unpleasantness, when the evidence shows the contrary.
What is the nature of this dynamic? Is it an N thing?
Please note that I started a new post on this.
Thanks,
dazed
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Dear Dazed,
I'm just finally emerging from a lifetime of this crap...I rarely tell my mother or father or certain siblings anything. I have had to pay a lot of money to therapist to have them tell me "You are more then fine, you are incredibly grounded, you never have a wrong take on any situation, you handle yourself with grace and style, you are an admirable person." My family does the opposite. When someone behaves badly they say it is my fault. If someone rages it is because I should have anticipated that person's needs better. When I tell certain family members a story, they tell me why I'm wrong. One brother said I make certain family members feel badly because other people like me, I have good social skills and I look OK (this is while I'm in the middle of a divorce from a nasty N and dealing with major issues with teenage children). He thought I should tone down who I am.
Bascially, the reality of who I was was never reflected back to me by my family. I truly thought I was stupid, uncoordinated, ugly and annoying. Truth was I was very likeable, social astute,smart, a pretty good athelte, not bad looking and far from annoying. But those voices are always hard to get out of your head....and for many years I continued to attract people "N's". I could provide the supply they needed for a while...but we all know the downside.
The subtle deragatory comments from my mother have been amazing. My house was going to be on a house walk and she asked if someone was going to come and redecorate it before the walk. She called me and said that now that I was divorced I should quit having Christmas dinner at my house and start acting like a divorced woman (I've always had a big party for Christmas). She really doesn't get me, doesn't get why people like me, or like my style and taste. She use to drop me off a block from the train when I was going downtown when I was young because she didn't like my clothes. When I was gettting married years ago and told her over dinner that the man I was choicing to marry was divorced, no kids and the marriage was annulled she started crying and said I had ruined her moment.
I now walk away from people that say subtle things to undermine my confidence. I actually feel sorry for them because it is their insecurity speaking, it is their way of feeling superior. The minute I recognize the behavior, I disengage. When someone says black when you say white on a consistent basis that is abuse....it is incredibly passive agressive behavior. Nine times out of ten when a friend tells me a story where someone has treated them inappropriately I'll point out to them why it wasn't about them but rather was the person with the bad behavior insecurites creeping out.
My therapist calls me the black sheep that just won't play the role of failure. I'm just different from most of the family and they certainly wouldn't have picked me. My therapist wants to use my story in a book...he says his opening line will be, she came from the perfect family, if you could ignore the alchoholism, judgemental behavior and abuse. Although I've never confronted my parents, they know I've been to therapy and they know they have no control over me.
Good idea starting a thread on this topic.
Gap
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Hi Gap,
First, let me than you so much for focasing me on this issue.
Yes, I did start a new thread on this.
You are so wonderfully balanced and grounded. Hope I can be like you one day.
I also paid lotsa money to a therapist, but, I didn't emerge as grounded as you.
Yes, your family members have reacted very weirdly (for lack of a better word) and badly to you.
"My therapist calls me the black sheep that just won't play the role of failure. " I love that.
Thanks again, GAP.
dazed
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Wow, there is just soooo much good stuff here.
Hops, your story about enabling is sooooo true. You did the right thing, as hard as it might have been.
CB, GAP, Hops, my family was also an alcoholic mess. My mother is a HUGE enabler. Yet at the same time she bashes my dad. She will tell him he needs to control himself better at one moment and then ask him why he isn't going to the liquor store when they pass it a second later. She did this to me too. She adores others "failures."
Along with all this I recently realized that I started drinking and smoking and doing other "adult" stuff as soon as I could. Since being a kid didn't count in our house, I was dying to do the things that made you an "adult."
Any conversation with my mother includes a derogatory comment towards me... usualkly disguised as a "joke." The latest was that my husband got a new bike and she said, "So, what, you are going to ride the old one." Meaning I was too unfit or something to do that. Of course I stuttered back that I was going to the gym... Why did I eve feel I needed to justify it????
There is so much here... want to reread it all.
Hard subjects...
Love, Beth, The Other Other Black Sheep
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A line from the eulogy I wrote for my Dad:
"...without much comment, he somehow made me feel that black sheep make wonderful wool."
Hops
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What posts. There is another black sheep lurking here!!
I too come from a family with an alcoholic mother..... even though I come from a huge family... good irish catholics.... I am the only one who really knows this. Where were the rest of them. The bottles of whiskey, the raging hangovers, the anger.... like I dreamed it all up. It is amazing the number of people her who have this problem in t heir family background. Does this groom us for Ns? What comes to mind is a childhood of trying to keep the peace (which I did with XN also) Overlooking the reality of the madness (which I did with XN also) discounting the meanness and making excuses for it (Which I did with XN also). I think I could go along with this for a long time and the parrell of living with an N is so frighteningly similiar. In a temper one day I screamed at XN "You are like a dry drunk" I dont know where that came from but it came deep inside of me. I dont think I even understood what it meant at the time but in retrospect it is another truth.
There is so much in this thread I am overwhelmed by the content and the familiarity of it all.
love to all
axa
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Just a flying visit. Hope everyone is okay, I've had a few more bad days this week but I keep reminding myself things aren't SO bad and they will get better!
Thanks for all your encouragement, it really does help.
It's interesting I said I wanted to be the same no matter what happened and I am working toward that- but it is not the huge swings from good to bad and back as things were before- there has to be a stability in the middle for that: people/ situations are neither good nor bad mostly, just my reaction to them. Most of the things I obsess about don't even affect me that closely when I examine what's going on...just trigger wild emotional responses either because of my past or where I am in my bipolar cycle...
Better go, take care everyone.
Love
Write
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Write
So glad your mood swings are not really rough right now.
The big goal you have achieved long ago the sweetness of your heart.
If only everyone operated in the world this way.I hope your son is doing great and he likes school .
Did he have to change schools when you moved??
Yes nothing and no one is all bad or all good. My mood swings are triggered from outside events as well.
Write so glad you are taking care of yourself and hope you getting enough sleep.
I am reading T.S. Elliott again and into poetry also a little zen.
Love to you
m
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Hi Moon.
Thank you, I hope you are well too. I was only thinking about you yesterday and wrote a little post but didn't have time to wait the 60 seconds from the previous one before I had to vacate the computer!
TS Eliot is wonderful some of it,
What we call the beginning is often the end
And to make and end is to make a beginning.
The end is where we start from....We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
I think my favourite poem has always been Dylan Thomas' Refusal to mourn:
A Refusal to Mourn the Death, by Fire, of a Child in London
Never until the mankind making
Bird beast and flower
Fathering and all humbling darkness
Tells with silence the last light breaking
And the still hour
Is come of the sea tumbling in harness
And I must enter again the round
Zion of the water bead
And the synagogue of the ear of corn
Shall I let pray the shadow of a sound
Or sow my salt seed
In the least valley of sackcloth to mourn
The majesty and burning of the child's death.
I shall not murder
The mankind of her going with a grave truth
Nor blaspheme down the stations of the breath
With any further
Elegy of innocence and youth.
Deep with the first dead lies London's daughter,
Robed in the long friends,
The grains beyond age, the dark veins of her mother,
Secret by the unmourning water
Of the riding Thames.
After the first death, there is no other.
Love to you too, and to everyone. Got to go quicker than I intended, my son wants to snuggle up on the sofa and watch tv...how can I refuse :)
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Robed in the long friends,
What an extraordinary line.
Thank you for this, Write. I didn't know this poem.
I'm glad you're snuggling with your sweet boy.
Consider yourself hugged good. I know winter's hard and
you've been plowing through your personal snow with such
grace and courage. You WILL reach spring!
hugs,
Hops
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write and hops
those poems are lovely
what hearts of understanding and kindness
love to you
moon
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Dear Axa,
I too come from a family with an alcoholic mother..... even though I come from a huge family... good irish catholics.... I am the only one who really knows this. Where were the rest of them.
Oh how I can relate to the denial. Irish Catholic, big family.....majority buy into the myth...thank God, one brother has come to the other side. I view facing reality as "opening a can of worms" if you don't need to why would you. What lead me on my journey of self discovery was marrying a "N" and the abuse getting so bad I had to talk to someone to find out what I could do differently to make the situation better. As lonely as it sometimes is to know the truth and have other family members continue to live the myth I wouldn't have it any other way. The wisdom and understanding I have obtained by facing the truth makes it all worth it, painful, but worth it
GAP.
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Consider yourself hugged good. I know winter's hard and
you've been plowing through your personal snow with such
grace and courage. You WILL reach spring!
oh thanks Hops. There are days when I think this particular furrow is more of a rut! but I am determined....
It's been a long week, work is going badly in two places. One I just took hold of the reins and went in and gave the director the benefit of my advice; she was a bit snippy at first, but soon settled down and listened so I feel it's down to her now. I never would have had the courage to do this a few years ago, or the knowledge to do it in a very neutral way- I was pulled on one side immediately by one of the managers after who was pretty wound up that I'd even been in there. People's insecurity is so damaging....their whole team is falling apart because of insecurity. What a negative feedback loop.
Oh well- I hope having the courage of my convictions pays off, but if I have to leave I did try.
The other job I lighted on a lovely appropriate group gift for the sick lady who has been riding my back for months; I will make one last attempt to sort things out there, if she returns from sick leave and there's still problems, well that will have to go too!
I will say this about bravery - it's a positive feedback loop. A couple of years ago the thought of having to give up jobs ( or even being asked to leave! ) would have lost me sleep. Today I feel like well if I am not meant to be there I will do something else...I really do 'give no thought for tomorrow' in that sense.
But as one door closes, another opens. The childrens' music director at church resigned; I have offered to cover for her voluntarily part-time whilst they find a replacement ( I don't want the job at this stage, but covering it looks nice on your CV for the future! )
With that and the work I offered to undertake at the place today assuming the boss takes on my suggestions and pulls things together I will have done what I set out to do work-wise: half paid and half voluntary.
When I decided to not give money to church that's what I wanted to do instead, so it's nice that some of it can be for the church.
I love my new church. I'm not sure I'm not falling for the music director a little...amazing guy! but another epiphany, I can enjoy him and our growing friendship without wondering what it will be and wishing it were other than it is. I suspect he feels the same about me, but if I am wrong- and this is a first for me- it's not the end of the world.
And I am going to start dating soon, just as soon as my divorce is final. I think I can handle any residual feelings of rejection or
There's been other stuff this week- a harrowing memorial service, ex announced he wants us to all move to California- more on that later if I get chance.
Love to you too Moon, are you doing okay?
I am a little manic with all this extra stress, but I slept okay last night and I am handling it the best I ever have without meds. The work stress may have to go though if it continues, so I am going to set up a few other jobs with a new organisation right now even though I don't particularly need them, just so I don't have any money worries. And so I don't get confused or over-scheduled I will work out a new timetable.
Love to everyone.
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Wow Write,
You have really grown, I see a big change in your attitude:
"I never would have had the courage to do this a few years ago"
"A couple of years ago the thought of having to give up jobs ( or even being asked to leave! ) would have lost me sleep. Today I feel like well if I am not meant to be there I will do something else...I really do 'give no thought for tomorrow' in that sense."
"suspect he feels the same about me, but if I am wrong- and this is a first for me- it's not the end of the world."
"The work stress may have to go though if it continues, so I am going to set up a few other jobs with a new organisation right now even though I don't particularly need them, just so I don't have any money worries. And so I don't get confused or over-scheduled I will work out a new timetable."
I hear calm, zen like contentment towards yourself and pragmatic/strategic planning in terms of work.
So happy for you,
dazed
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Thanks Dazed1. I think it's a progress which goes back and forth a bit, I've had a funny day today- high confidence and self-doubt ( in part the latter made worse momentarily by trying to elicit ex's support...what a habit I have gotten into there! )
The guy hugged me this morning and I pretty much knew he has feelings for me, what a mix of feelings that's made in me: am I ready for this, what if... etc. but also a calmness; I know we'll be kind to each other whatever we do.
I came on the receiving end of someone's poor communications again at work; reminds me why I work for myself and can pick and choose- but still i am sick of being on the receiving end of other people's insecurity.
I could not be more supportive at this job and frankly the more well I work there are a couple of people who just get more nasty- but very underhand and pleasant to my face.
I forget there are such people in this world you know, maybe I have a blind spot because of my history.
I want to see the best in EVERYONE ALL THE TIME!!!!! Sorry to shout- I'm shouting at me really.
Don't know what will happen with it all but I did my best and 3 difficult patients have received better care because of my interference, so I guess if a couple of people cold-shoulder me or try to undermine me I will have to live with it.
No wonder we fear success though is it, with such people around!
Here endeth the vent...
:x :oops: :x
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ps my mantra for today can be
It's amazing what can be accomplished when nobody cares who gets the credit
and maybe
God sees everything!
Ex told me I am a fool for going out on a limb and I seem crazy....
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Write
Oh how I love this :D
G-d sees Everything
hugs to you 8)
moon