Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: liberty on January 15, 2007, 02:31:57 PM
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Hi everyone,
I was wondering if when an N loses N supply and perhaps they can find no other, will they seek suicide as an option.
Here is why I'm asking:
Since I told Nmom not to call me anymore at all for any reason and I have instituted my "No contact" policy, she has called one of my bleeding heart cousins and has been crying and saying strange things like: She wishes that darkness will come and take over her and that when she wakes up in the morning, she wishes it would be night again.
Sounds very strange to me. Is it manipulation? Or is she going over the edge now that she feels abandoned?
Lib
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My opinion is definite manipulation! My H does this to control me and get me back into his reach just so he can pound me emotionally again. But somehow I end up apologizing for his mistakes and trying to fix his problems.
Nowadays, since I have to live with him for now, just to get it--his drama queen episode---over with. Anything is better than that.
I think your mom knew just who to call to get the message back to you. She is using them now like the witch on Oz used those monkeys. No offense to the partular characters in your life---but ya know what I mean?
My mom did the same thing to me. I had a brother who wouldn't quit calling me after I cut off contact with her. I wouldn't even answer his calls cause I knew what they were up to. He thought he was just playing peacemaker, but SHE was controling him like a puppet.
CB123 sounds like they are on track with noticing these are quite vague "threats". Mostly for sympathy and then to get at you.
Don't buy into it. You can't afford it.
Peace & Namaste
Sunny D
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Hi CB and Divine,
The cousin that she chose to carry the message is so emotional that she will cry if someone's lolipop falls on the floor. Not sure if Nmom is N with BPD traits although she has never threatened suicide before. But this is the first "No contact" period for her so I expect that she will be desperate.
Lib
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Do Ns commit suicide?
Not nearly as often as would be optimal for the rest of us.
mud
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Hi liberty,
I've been following your story and I really feel for you.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but to me, your question seems connected to my post about kidnapping & the Stockholm Syndrome: Why do we not leave the N? and, on the other hand, what are the consequences when do do leave the N?
Here, you've decided to leave the N, but she's trying to pull you back with veiled threats of suicide.
Do you call her bluff, or not? I don't know.
If you contact her, have you given in? On the other hand, if you contact her and reaffirm your original letter, maybe she'll get the point and maybe that could be a "win" for you.
I'm just trying to think this out.
What if you emailed her and told her that since she never took your letter seriously, you decided to do a "no contact" but, that if she agrees to discuss your letter in a meaningful way, you'll listen? But then, you'd have to listen to her, yuck!
What about having a therapist referee a session with her?
It's a really difficult decision.
dazed
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Hi Dazed,
I follow your trend of thought and I think in fact that it is manpulation. Since I made the post , I called her. I will call this piece:
"Inside the mind of the N"
I asked her what she wanted and what her expectations were. Her first response was that she wanted me to trust her and then she went on and on about how hard she had it when I was a child etc etc. and that she was afraid of moving out on her own. I listened and did not interrupt but this time, I felt absoloutely no emotion, not love, not hate but nothing.
After she was through, I told her that as hard as she had it when I was a child, I had it worse. I pointed out to her that I expected that she would have protected me but instead she knowingly left me to take abuse and only ended the realtionship and became brave when a threat was made to her life.
I told her that I found her to be cold, emotionless and uncaring as a parent. I also told her that as a child I was unable to share any of my emotions with her because I could never afford to get her upset and I gave exapmles of thei times that I tried and her dismissive attitude "So you had a hard childhood so get over it!"
She responded by saying that in her opinon she was not cold and uncaring that that I was in fact abusive to her and I stabbed her in the back by sending her the emails on my views on my childhood and I should learn to accept people as they are not not try to change them. She said that as she accepts me as I am.
I told her that while she may be who she is I don't have to accept behaviour that is unsuitable to me so that we can agree to differ and we don't need to have any sort of relationship at all.
She began to back pedal quickly and said that we could and should have a realtionship and that she is not aware of her coldness and that perhpas I should telll her when she is being cold and she would tell me if I was being rude to her. I told her that this sounds fair.
Regarding her phone calls she said that she used to go on about herself because she was so exicted about her achivements / accomplishments and that I was the only person that she shared these things with. I told her that this was not fair to me as I was not her spouse and that I had a life of my own and was not interested in carrying her emotionally anymore.
I told her to only call me if she want to find out how I am and don't call me to tell me anything about herslf. I told her that I would do the same for her as well. She did not seem to like this and went back to square one with her blaming. I reminded her that if we could not get along suitably in my estimation I was very comfortable not having any relationship at all.
Finally, I told her to stop involving third parties and sending people to call me. She denied this saying that she never asked my bleeding heart cousin to call me. I told her that if she inssisted in telling lies we would be left to have only a superficial relationship. It was her choice. She got quiet again.
The conversation ended shortly after.
The significant thing is that I really feel nothing. I didn't feel angry. I don't feel close. I don't feel sorry for her. I feel indifferent. I don't think she will change and I don't care anymore. Now that she cannot call me to talk about herslf, I don't expect her to call at all. What I am saying is that the change is not in the situation or the circumstances. This time the change is in me. This is what I'm feeling.
Lib
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I think NO CONTACT is best and that means no contact indirectly through third parties. Anyone who understands what you are going through knows that this is best for you.
Sea storm
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Wow Liberty!
WOW!!!! WOW!!! WOW!!!
Your conversation was AWSOME!!! And I love what you said about the change being within YOU!!!!
I am awed by your power and strength.
You really got to the heart of the matter.
Whether or not she will act better in the future is almost secondary. You let her know how you felt.
Liberty, this is so great and I am so happy for you. Well done.
And, at least we know she's not suicidle.
You are a role model for me.
Marvelous!!
dazed
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Do Ns commit suicide?
Not nearly as often as would be optimal for the rest of us.
mud
Dang, mud, you stole my punch line: Nowhere near often enough.
And the sad thing is that these Ns and their phony dramas can result in people not knowing when to take a genuine suicide risk seriously, we become so cynical that we see all suicidality as manipulative... that is tragic.
I've noticed that most Ns can't resist checking to see how their theatrics are affecting people... so that's what I watch for, that little 'pause' in the show that tells me it is most likely only a show. When I see that, I know I'm dealing with a drama queen [or king].
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Mud ,
You stole my line also.
Do N's commit suicide? My initial thought was ....... God if only.
IMO NO NO NO. What would the world do without those amazing people. Liberty, I believe if someone wants to commit suicide they will do it. Do I believe your Mom will - No. I hear games, games, games.
I believe you have worked through so much lately. Personally I would not have called her as I know the only way you get free is NO CONTACT. And as far bleeding heart cousin I would suggest to her, since she is so concerned about your Mom that she might like to go and spend time with her.
I am convinced they will do anything in this world to get what they want SUPPLY. They just want to talk about themselves ALL THE TIME.
I figured this out a long time ago with my Nparents. When they would call my first question was What do you want. Sometimes they would go through the pleasantries and they tell me what they wanted. To which I would always reply Oh so that is what you wanted and that is why you called. Really pissed them off. My contact with them went down to almost nothing before they died.
I think feeling neither love nor hate sounds healthy but be careful they have a way of squirming back into your life if you take your eye off the ball.
axa
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Hi Axa,
I understand what you are saying about them trying to sqirm back in. I called because I wanted to assure myself that she was not suicidal. I have done this so I'm clear about that now.
Good advice about bleeding heart. She atually lives not too far from Nmom so the next time she calls I will suggest that she visit Nmom more often and perhaps find ways of spending time with her. :twisted:
Lib
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Hi Liberty
It's been a while since I read posts here but it still amazes me how similiar N's are, and I feel you are in a good place right now. It's good to be able to open your eyes and see what is happening.... learning about how N's behave, then seeing it with the N in your own life, kind of like a fog clearing maybe?
Your conversation with your Mum, reminded me of a conversation I had with my N dad, from the accepting people as they are and not trying to change them, to views on childhood, how you should have a relationship, to asking to ring if she wants to find out how you are. Mine was that I asked him that he could at least at me one question about myself when he rang/emailed.
It will be 2 years next month since I last had contact with my dad, and while I don't forget about him, I know in my heart that I've done the right thing for me. Reading your post helped me re-inforce this, that he is still the same and if I did get in touch, it would still be the same.
Good for you Liberty, and here's wishing you strength and most of all, here's to your voice. One thing I learnt from dealing with my N dad is that "you can't change anyone else, you can only change yourself and the way you react".
Take care
H&H xx
Dear Mud - so funny as always.... How is Mrs Mud doing?
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CB you just don't know how validating your words are to me.
thank you so much for your kind encouragement
warm wishes,
Leah
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The significant thing is that I really feel nothing. I didn't feel angry. I don't feel close. I don't feel sorry for her. I feel indifferent. I don't think she will change and I don't care anymore. Now that she cannot call me to talk about herslf, I don't expect her to call at all. What I am saying is that the change is not in the situation or the circumstances. This time the change is in me. This is what I'm feeling.
"This time the change is in me." are exactly the word I would use to explain how I have learned to cope with my narcissitic mother. The day came when she couldn't hurt me, where I didn't care if she understood, when I finally realized that she would never understand or care. That anything I said could and would be used against me...that reacting to her comments or meanness was pointless, she really, really, really doesn't get it or get me. Once you cross the line, life is much easier.
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I'm so glad, Leah.
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It's good to be able to open your eyes and see what is happening.... learning about how N's behave, then seeing it with the N in your own life, kind of like a fog clearing maybe?
H&H, this is so true. Even though it was not intentional on her part Nmom validated everything that I knew to be true about my childhood. The fact that she said that I have to accept her as she is is such a clear indication that she does not intend to change. It was good that she said that. But when I pointed out to her that while I would accept the way she was it did not mean that I had to deal with her, she became upset. To me that is the crux of the matter right there.
We do have to accept the Ns personal choice to be they way they are and not to change but in the same breath they have to accept the fact that we can also choose not to deal with them!!!!! It's only fair! And since most of the victims of the N are always interested in fairness this should fall into place quite well.
CB, I read the book "He's not that into you". It is a book that says basically, if you're a woman and a guy is showing definite signs that he's not interested in your welfare then you need to move on because there are so many other fish in the sea. I think that this can work with any N male or female even if it is a parent. You are so right that to really cannot "get" you or anybody else but for this to work, you are the one who has to change and "Move on sister!! On to greener pastures we go!!" :D
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Hi Gap:
What a sane summary:
The day came when she couldn't hurt me, where I didn't care if she understood, when I finally realized that she would never understand or care. That anything I said could and would be used against me...that reacting to her comments or meanness was pointless, she really, really, really doesn't get it or get me. Once you cross the line, life is much easier.
and
HI, H&H!!!!
I have missed hearing about you and the family and all the rest.
Hope you're doing well, dear!
love,
Hops
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Liberty,
The title of that book has always intrigued me--too bad it hadnt been written yet when I was dating H!
CB
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Hi H&H,
So nice to hear your voice again!!!!
((((((((liberty))))))))))
Everyone has given you good advice. I really don't believe they ever would...My cousin just committed suicide and my mother was disgusted with her. I had another cousin who committed suicide years ago and she refuses to believe it was a suicide. Has your mother ever had a reaction to another's suicide? That might give you an idea of how she really feels.
Mr. Mud,
Thanks for the giggle.
Love to all of you,
Beth
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Hi Beth,
I'm so sorry to hear about your cousin. ((((Beth))))
No one in my family or anyone we knew has ever committed suicide so I have never gotten a reaction from Nmom about it.
Lib
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Hi everyone,
I was wondering if when an N loses N supply and perhaps they can find no other, will they seek suicide as an option.
Here is why I'm asking:
Since I told Nmom not to call me anymore at all for any reason and I have instituted my "No contact" policy, she has called one of my bleeding heart cousins and has been crying and saying strange things like: She wishes that darkness will come and take over her and that when she wakes up in the morning, she wishes it would be night again.
Sounds very strange to me. Is it manipulation? Or is she going over the edge now that she feels abandoned?
Lib
I've known one person who often used suicidal threats to attempt to force people to do as she demanded. One of those threats landed her in the psych ward and she was highly incensed that anyone would ever DARE do that to her! (She may have been an N.) When she called me that last time with the threat: "If you don't do what I want you to do, I will kill myself and make it YOUR fault!", I cut her off and contacted her therapist. He was confused about what was going on. I acknowledged that his ethics prevented him from discussing his sessions with her and, at the same time, I told him that my gut was telling me that whenever she met with him, she would tell him that everything was fine and hunky-dory. Then the day after her appointment with him, she's calling me and talking suicide and it's getting old. Based on his tone of voice, I think I hit the nail on the head and realized she was playing BOTH of us! The last conversation I had with her, she SCREAMED at me for DARING to call her out on her game! I told her I wasn't going to be used and don't call me again. After I hung up on her, she miraculously left me alone!
She's still around and, unfortunately, working somewhere as a social worker. God help her clients!
Bones
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Yes, bone. And my cousin who killed herself gave no indication. We all knew she was not happy, but noone had any idea she would take her life. She had her daughter's wedding coming up and a seemingly good husband. It's not always true, but I think the ones who make a big deal of it look for attention.Those who quietly say they are done are the ones to watch and try to help. I just think those who are serious don't want any drama... they just want to go...
I am sorry you are in this position, Libby. The truth is, even if she made that choice, you are not responsible for her well-being. She is.
(((((((Lib)))))))))))
Leah, please don't let what your husband did/does to you keep you from trying to get beyond this. Life can be good. For me, life is better now than it has ever been.... In large part due to the people here who have helped me see through new eyes and understand how to live well. It's not easy, but it gets easier. It is hard when you know what is going on and the rest of the world doesn't see it. Just close your eyes then and know that we understand and we will listen and we know you are right.
Love, Beth
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She's still around and, unfortunately, working somewhere as a social worker. God help her clients!
Not surprised Bone,
I know one who is a foster parent!!
Leah
Oh Good Lord! God help the foster kids!
Bones
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"Yes, bones. And my cousin who killed herself gave no indication. We all knew she was not happy, but noone had any idea she would take her life. She had her daughter's wedding coming up and a seemingly good husband."
There may have been a lot more going on inside of her that no one really knew about. Unfortunately, we'll never know.
Bones
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WOW good question.
I highly doubt they would commit suicide...rather, others might kill them because they drove them INSANE!
N's do not believe THEY are the ones with issues...they believe it's everyone ELSE who bugs them and makes things sooooooooooo hard on them. So, no, it's not real likely that N's will kill themselves, at least not till they destroy everyone else around them who dares to help or show they care.
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Oh, that explains my recent urges to hit my N over the head with a broom! Not to kill, but to knock some sense into maybe.
And the next time he threatens suicide,someone told me once to just ask him what kind of service he wants, open casket.....cremation.....just want him to go out how he wants cause I know he will haunt me if I don't do it all his way.
Morbid...I know. And cold. But there's comes a point where I can't feel too much guilt for at least trying to cope by letting loose once in a while.
Seriously.
Suicides are tragic, and I am sorry to hear of any of them at all because I know that the person was suffering greatly. Disordered or confused, sad or lost..... whatever.
We are all blessed to be here finding comfort, validation, peace, respite, and understanding in each other. And most of ALL...our VOICES!
Bravo to all!
Sunny D
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There is a case in which a woman endured spousal abuse for a long time, and finally escaped, but by the time she did, one of her children had become abusive towards her, and very likely this was because of seeing how her husband treated her.
After all she had suffered, this second betrayal was overwhelming for her.
There are several tragic, tragic lessons in this. Children are children; they don't have the wisdom, the detachment, the coping mechanisms available to adults - and so they are affected by their childhood environment, sometimes beyond our ability to repair. Abuse that we tolerate 'for their sake' may actually be intolerably damaging to them, and they may blame us for the damage, because it is much more significant to them - in terms of their own lives and how they will live them - than our loving but tragically misguided sacrifice.
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Deleted my posting Stormchild as it may be too upsetting. Leah
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I'll modify mine... because there is a lesson, an important lesson, and someone paid a very high price to give us that lesson.
((((((((((leah))))))))))
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You are so right Storm, it saddened me last night as I sat and read her last poem which was all about being a survivor and was so inspiring. Such a tragic loss. But indeed a lesson.
Leah
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Thank you leah - I hope I've described this situation with the respect and mourning that it deserves. Her sacrifice should not be in vain.
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uhoh i had a duh moment a bit ago where
i dont know how i missed seeing this thread and posted a new thread
Email
i thought i saw a puddy cat..topic about do n's commit suicidebutcantfinditso...
« on: Today at 04:36:06 PM »
Reply with quote
some of what was in that topic that i cant find anymore about n's are not likely to commit suicide but
borderlines are more likelty too..
i think seems probably valid but
i came across an interesting type
named narcissistic borderlines i think
and my sense is that they are not as likely to commit suicide as borderlines
but more likely to put themselves in dangerious situations
where they might die..
such as getting drunk to a degree such that....
they might have an accident etc....
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hi retread
no problem! in fact, the NPD BPD combo situation probably merits its own thread too.
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I understand that someone was trying to locate this thread?
Bones
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Oh yes.
Definitely yes.
I was suicidal at times in the past - and believe me, if they even suspect you feel that way, Ns will mock it. Yes indeed.
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Me too. I often told my mother I thought of suicide when I was a teen or told stiories about it or asked why people would do it. She just told me it was stupid and she didn't want to talk about it. I devised all sorts of ways to kill myself. Ended up being bulimic instead. Wanted desperately to be anorexic, but couldn't hack it. She also blew that off... "Well, are you still doing it?" "No, but I wouldn't tell you if I were." "OK" end of discussion.
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(((((((((((((((((((((moonie))))))))))))))))))
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Hi Bones
I think retread was wanting this thread.
I do have a question would a person with n traits mock a person that was really feeling suicidal feelings
and JUST not understand that kind of pain at all and just laugh at it????
I mean would a N just mock the whole idea that a person could be in so much pain they would consider
suicide as a way out??? I do not know .
M
I wouldn't put it past an N because it wouldn't surprise me that they could be capable of doing something that cruel.
Bones
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Hey Bones ,
I know someone this happened too .
They were in a bad way and mocked for their pain.
I was surprised .But now this person has a good support system .
hugs to you
moonlight
Thanks, Moon!
Bones