Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lynn on March 07, 2004, 04:58:28 PM
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Hi friends,
I'm sitting here reading posts and thinking about N-moms, N-dads, N-husbands. Everybody here has so many life experiences. Help me to understand the steps to take with my children to give them tools to avoid N-ism. Clearly, this sort of thing runs in families. Yet, not all children in the family are affected in the same way.
What worked in your situation?
What did you wish your mom/dad had done for you? What do you wish they had NOT done?
What are the most important things for kids in an N-family to understand? Voice? Self-confidence? Feeling loved?
lynn
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Hi Lynn, hope everythings fine with you in your new life.
This is a good topic you created for discussion, and my brain has already launched into it. I'm going to be thinking about this one tonight and hope I can come back to it after dinner. Thanks for the post.
Guest
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Great question and topic indeed!!
I think by virtue of being on this board and working out the issues, most of us here are committed to figuring out and really understanding the narcissistic mechanism in order to prevent handing it down to our children. To me, this knowledge is essential and the key to prevent passing this down.
Because her mother continually invaded her physical and emotional privacy, my mother adopted an across-the-board let-her-figure-it-out-on-her-own approach when it came to addressing my needs. She saw me suffering with my depression, obesity, and fighting with my father, but she figured it was normal or not something to interfere with because it was so much better than what she had grown up with. Better, perhaps. Damaging in a different way, absolutely.
If my mother had done a little more child development research (something I’m committed to doing) and raised me as a new person not yet involved in the drama of her own abuse instead of as a reaction to her mother and a reminder of her own childhood, it may have been easier to identify the needs of her child. And even if she couldn't deal all of those needs herself - find someone who could. In doing so, she could have probably helped to heal herself by understanding not just that she had been abused, but by understanding what is healthy and how her own needs hadn’t been met – but were completely natural.
My two cents.
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What are the most important things for kids in an N-family to understand? Voice? Self-confidence? Feeling loved?
I had to think about this for a while.
Ostensibly children in a n-family have the same needs as other children: unconditional love, space to grow, a nurturing parent to support them, a positive environment etc.
I can think of two differences where there is a narcissist ( or other major issue ) in the family.
One: the children be taught that the narcissist behaviour is different and unacceptable and how to recognise and challenge it and to see themselves as separate. The narcissist does not want to own their own behaviour or their own pain, they are quick to pass the blame and to find offence where there is none. It also compounds as everyone develops: the narcissist experiences more and more pain as they are challenged and denied the attention and adulation. It's not about love either: the narcissist can love. Its about power, and taking from others all the energy in situations, and not giving anything back. Narcissists frustrate others.
Two: that the non-n parent ( s ) get professional help for themselves, and the children do not ever have to take the role of confidante/ advisor/ intermediary etc.
If your children have been affected adversely you will probably already know it Lynn, by their behaviour/ demeanour. Most likely you have been acting as a 'buffer' and effectively caretaking their n-relationship for many years if they have grown up fine.
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Hiya Lynn.Whoops! I’ve started, I could go on. What specifically are you thinking of Lynn? Are your children more likely to be hurt by Ns or become Ns? What matters is what they’re like, especially at their ages (16 and 19? Please correct me), rather than what the outside world is like, if you see what I mean. Are they talking to you about what’s happening? Sorry, I don’t think I’m being very clear…P
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Lynn,
I am not a parent and probably never will be, but it just struck me how, in the midst of what is a very hard time for you, you are still able to think of your kids and how to make sure they know how important their feelings and well-being are to you. I am sure they feel your concern and love.
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Hi Lynn,
I, too, had a couple of responses to your questions and could go on and on. :wink: But am I right in supposing what's really behind the question is that you are wondering how to avoid any N damage to your kids, or you are trying to assess how much damage has been done and trying to find an antidote?
Even in the healthiest environments, kids are going to be formed according to their parenting, their demographics, and their temperament. (And opportunities and luck!) Temperament is an incredible wild card in how kids turn out no matter how healthy or messed up the parents are. I was glad when Rosencrantz, I think, pointed out on a couple of other threads that siblings are equally affected by destructive N forces but show it in different ways. This is so true. (My bro fought back. I hid under a rock. :? )
I want to keep my kids in a bubble and I have to remind myself that "the universe is unfolding as it should" when I get stressed about my children. I literally say this to myself! So I listen (actively, not passively), pick em up, dust em off, and cheer them on.
I may have gotcha wrong, but hope this a bit of help or food for thought. Best, Seeker
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Hi all,
I'm thinking about this task of helping our children avoid becoming N's if they've been exposed to N's, and to help them deal with N's in their life as most at some time or another will have to.
No Portia, you shouldn't stop, you should go on, please. I know I'm a guest, but pretty please. I've missed you lately and I'd love it if this point could be explored because you absolutely hit the nail on the head.
It's listening. It's listening! Listening! Listening!
This culturally lost art, the other vital aspect of communication. That's what causes voicelessness in the first place. I carry a lot of secrets around in my head because of my job type and the confidentiality aspect connected with it, I'm related to a bit like a priest at work.
The thing that I hear most from people who need to come to me to address personal issues is so often "Thanks for listening." Dr Grossman's introductory articles address this so well.
It's in listening to our children when and where they communicate without stifling their enquiries. Encouraging them to explore their ideas and views. Helping them to learn how to make healthy decisions. Discussing issues that affect themand involving them in decision making processs, with respect to their years. Certain things may be inappropriate for their age.
But listening is so vital, it's the key.
Children who don't get listened to often develop the unhealthy characteristic of screaming.
This is only one of the many recognised traits of children who don't receive 'listening' from significant caretakers in their lives and as a result haven't learned how to 'listen' to others themselves. This observable trait of 'screaming' in small children is so heart-wrenching. Later in their life this screaming mutates. Its mutations are different depending on whether they are introverts, extroverts, males or females, and also can be affected by sibling order.
One thing that has been proved is that children who experience 'speaking into space' when they are young, and haven't received or been taught effective communication skills become destructive communicators later in life. And this destructive characteristic pervades ao many aspects of their life. If when they were young they were either silenced, ignored or ridiculed, they so often become their own worst enemy. Even in relationships that are important to them.
By not listening to our children and not respecting their opinions or getting down on their level we not only silence them and create voicelessness, but we make them deaf as well. Deaf to good advice, deaf to good people, deaf to views which conflict with their own. Unfortunately they also become deaf to their own negative speech and the effects of it on others. If children aren't appreciated and responded too, answered or encouraged, the harm is so great. It impacts on, and often destroys their future relationships.
My own view developed from my workplace invovlment is that so often it's the same types and characters who so often become embroiled in the emotional 'fire-storms' that erupt, sometimes occasionaly, sometimes frequently. And so often they are misunderstanding based conflict. Usually flamed by the ones with the poorer, underdeveloped listening skills, and over-developed 'screaming' skills This is the art we need to develop and impart to our children. And it is taught by example. There is no other way.
Would love to hear more on this thread
Guest (high priest/priestess of a company with 500+ employees, parent, and grandparent)
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Good thread
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Lynn, I digress from your good thread which by the way I have posted to, but may I ask, on a personal note, how you are going this week? With the changes in your circumstances? I have been thinking about you, and dare I say, hoping you are okay. Have you been okay? How are you feeling? How's your son and his arm and the distance thing? Just wondering.
Guest
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Hi Lynn,
It took reading the other posts on this thread to get that I'd misinterpreted your original posting. :oops: I'd assumed it was a general question, but now that I'm more familiar with your history, I can understand more of where the question is coming from.
All the other posters had such great suggestions, that I'm not sure I can add to it. Kind of still sorting my own stuff out (which I guess is pretty obvious :? ).
Wildflower
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Because her mother continually invaded her physical and emotional privacy, my mother adopted an across-the-board let-her-figure-it-out-on-her-own approach when it came to addressing my needs. She saw me suffering with my depression, obesity, and fighting with my father, but she figured it was normal or not something to interfere with because it was so much better than what she had grown up with. Better, perhaps. Damaging in a different way, absolutely.
If my mother had done a little more child development research (something I’m committed to doing) and raised me as a new person not yet involved in the drama of her own abuse instead of as a reaction to her mother and a reminder of her own childhood, it may have been easier to identify the needs of her child. And even if she couldn't deal all of those needs herself - find someone who couldMy two cents.
Wildflower, this was a valuable input to this thread. It got me thinking about how as parents, when we head off to the extreme, any extreme, whatever extreme that may be, we still cause damage. It's just different damage. I saw this operating years ago in a couple of communes I lived in. I'm an old reformed now civilised ex-hippie from the 70's. Major studies were done later about a why so many communes failed. So many of the communes that started up in the late 60's a the 70's failed, majorly, catastropically. It became a bit of a fad to analyse and over-analyse the successful ones v the failed ones. But mostly the failures came from the extremes they adopted. These mini-societies went totally over the top in permissiveness in some areas, and became completely anally retentive in others.
For example, one commune that I lived on, some parents actually openly encouraged their pre-adolescents children to explore each other sexually, within the same family, like brothers an sisters. The joke went, 'Incest, the game the whole family can play.' This was shocking, but in that environment of permissiveness it was so acceptable and discussed alonside 'pass the lentils' at the dinner table. One other elite exclusive commune that failed big-time had a membership age rule. No-one over 40 I think it was. This was doomed. There was no wisdom of age in the whole community, it was such an artificial environment.
The bottom line is how to find good, healthy, normal. To lose the baggage passed on to us from our sometimes well-meaning but highly efficiently destructive parents. To not repeat their mistakes, but also to not just focus on doing things differently. Different might not neccessarily be better, That's the thought you brought to surface in my mind Wildflower. Well done. Not to just try to be a different parent to mine, and end up being one different but equally as bad. Everyone else here would want to be the best parent they possibly can be. This is the quest that I'm on too. Thanks
Guest
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Wildflower, hello, I’ve been reading you. Please don’t be embarrassed! I’m not sure you did misinterpret Lynn’s post: I may have, she may not have wanted a personalised response. It’s a free board, please continue to talk, and don’t worry about ‘fitting in’ with a thread or saying something alternative. I just want to hear more of your voice! Carry on sorting, here if you wish. I’m still sorting…I just kind of get waylaid by conversations. Not very focussed I’m afraid, that’s my problem. Anyway, I just reacted to your :oops: - and wanted to say, it’s ok. :D
Hiya again Lynn! What do you think? How’s it going? P
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..ok, how did I manage to log myself out then? :roll: That was me above...P
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It's just different damage. I saw this operating years ago in a couple of communes I lived in.
this is really interesting.
one of my former friends lived like this, not the sexual permissiveness though, and I always thought they were a 'together' lot, especially her eldest who always seemed 'ahead of his time' if you know what I mean.
Mid-twenties he had a major breakdown, and I wonder now that he was actually being 'mature' to comply or compensate for what maybe he experienced as chaotic? and he lost something of his childhood as a result.
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If you’re interested in communes and the damage they did, you may like to visit amazon.co.uk for:
My Life in Orange by Tim Guest
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1862076324/qid=1078927290/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/026-8562585-1060435
“Tim's story of growing up in a commune though somehow still growing up in isolation is very moving”
“The story of a young boy losing his home and mother and their rediscovery of each other is beautifully written without a trace of self pity and with much compassion. Then there is the story of the commune of Osho Rajneesh”
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For example, one commune that I lived on, some parents actually openly encouraged their pre-adolescents children to explore each other sexually, within the same family, like brothers an sisters. The joke went, 'Incest, the game the whole family can play.' This was shocking, but in that environment of permissiveness it was so acceptable and discussed alonside 'pass the lentils' at the dinner table. One other elite exclusive commune that failed big-time had a membership age rule. No-one over 40 I think it was. This was doomed. There was no wisdom of age in the whole community, it was such an artificial environment.
Guest
Still on the commune thing, I'll try not to be too longwinded. This one I referred to wasn't a religious commune, the people were all pretty much 'back to earth people' the 'Back to Eden' Jethro Kloss types. Exploring alternative lifestyles and therapies and medicines and finding common bonds to establish a commune on. I must admit I did live for way too long in a religious commune at one time too, which used a powerful thought reform program, although I was completely unaware of it at the time. It all just seemed so loving and caring initially. Then it turned into a nightmare after about 6 months
But back to the 'earth people'. I was there for about 2 years. One sad story that has haunted me. There were 2 young boys, with same gender parents, who had both been psych nurses in the big city, and they fell in love and decided to 'drop out' together with their kids. Each had a son the same age as each other. They all moved to the commune to live 'free' and raise their children in a nurturung environment, in a time when their ( the parent's) homosexuality was still a taboo subject in many circles.
These two parents were mostly kind and caring and I liked them a lot. I am hetero but they were very accepting of hetero's, even though they encouraged their 2 young boys openly to explore each other sexually. This bothered me and a few others, but it wasn't the 'done thing' to criticise other's choices. I didn't fit in as well as some so was a bit of a fringe-dweller really, an observer and I found so much was confusing, it seemed the more permissive one was the more one fitted it. I couldn't even get into the nudity thing comfortably, and that was like a basic requirement of membership. I was sitting on the grass one day watching everyone swimming in the dam, one guy came up to me to introduce himself. I'm sitting he's standing, so his erect penis is at my eye level. He reached down to shake my hand, I didn't know which one to shake. It was so funny when I think about it now. I was so frigid and embarrassed.
Anyway, these 2 little boys were actively encouraged to experiment with each other sexually and to observe their parents experimenting with each other too. One night a few of us were invited to their cabin for dinner and one of these parents explained that the boys were "up in the loft giving each other a good time." Eventually the cracks began to appear in this permissive philosophy, one these little boys started 'blood letting'.
A free school operated in the commune and it became known this boy was 'bloodletting', and this blew into a huge problem, and a laughing matter no more. Then the teacher and parents found out that he had been teaching other kids how to do 'bloodletting'. He was taking razor blades to school to show other, even littler kids how to do it. He could have only been 9 or 10. Then the problems grew and these two little boys started 'pack hunting'. They were still pre-pubescent, and they forced one members daughter into a perverse sexual act. The whole roof began to collapse on the commune. (Metaphorically speaking). I still had contact with friends for a few years after I left, but the fall-out was devastating for so many people. Hepatitis or something equally as bad ( I forget) thyphus, I can't remember, swept through the commune from the foul water people were swimming in and drinkin from.
One husband and father of 2 suicided. It got too much for him when he had to share the delivery room with 2 other guys who could possibly have been the father of the baby his wife was giving birth to.
The other 2 guys who could have been the father were either of these same gender parents of the 2 little boys. It went completely insane, or should I say ended up completely insane. But it didn't start out that way. It started out as a local arts, preserves and vegetable co-op, formed by a group which I was involved with, of alternative health freaks. And it turned into a milder Jim-Jones cult situation. One of the little boys ended up on medication and was considered dangerous.
Anyway sorry for taking so long, but all these things have made me very aware of my need to keep my own boundaries in place and to be careful of ever getting swept along or swept up in any group mentality. I've shown great weakness in this department in the past or I wouldn't have found my way and been drawn to these types of situations in the first place. My need to belong, and not recognising a healthy from unhealthy environment, or recognising it but not caring so long as I felt loved and accepted.
This was the legacy of the neglectful and abusive parenting I had and it's taken me a long time into my adult years to know myself and my own mind and keep to my own path and to take responsibility for myself and the choices I make. I can't blame that lousy parenting anymore. It's taken a lot of self-reflection to learn this though. Sometimes I cringe at different things I've been involved in. Or things I've observed, stood by and said nothing, because of my own needs for love an acceptance and not wanting to risk being ostracised. Fortunately, I think I may have managed to develop a good streak of common sense now along my strange journey in life. Sorry for raving, I'll shutup now.
Guest.
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To everyone who has been so kind to share their thoughts,
Thank you for your insight. I want so much to make things as right as I can... and at this time in my life... much is confusion. Hearing your opinions, feeling your caring... it's truly amazing to me. I have never participated in a group of people who are so generous and kind. Willing to jump right in and share their life and knowledge... and in an incredibly caring way. I am overwhelmed by your responses.
I'll keep you posted on my progress.
Warmly, lynn