Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: cj on March 08, 2004, 10:53:12 AM
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Welcome CJ. :) I’m English, never been in therapy (yet) so I can only use ordinary words to talk to you! So – your story so far is pretty horrible. Your family set up – excuse me – sounds weird from the start. Daughters with children don’t usually live just with their Dads you know? (I’m pretty direct and challenging, but other posters will be gentler, I promise, so don’t take offence, okay?) Was it always just the family of three? Do you know anything about your father? (Your mother telling you you’d be like him….just gets me mad.) As for the head-banging on the floor – inexcusable. So humiliating if not downright dangerous! How did you feel? Were you physically hurt? Angry? (You don’t have to answer, I’m just going to a similar place in my childhood.)
Stick around. This is emotional survival here, and it sounds as though that may apply to you eh? So many of your words ring bells, I’m a bit annoyed on your behalf, just listening. It doesn’t matter if it was narcissism or whatever ‘disorder’: it is your reaction. You said “I'm not really sure if my emotions were considered valid”. What do you think? (I don’t think from what you’ve said your emotions were ever considered at all, whether valid or invalid.) If I sound harsh, it’s because I’m against therapists putting words in your mouth: has that happened? I’m glad you posted! Please tell us more if and when you feel like it. Over to my more gentler colleagues here…. Very best wishes, P
PS Your mother sounds cold, unloving and manipulative. Just like so many!
PPS. Okay I’ve calmed down from reading your post and read it again. Your mother seemed to give you this conflicting stuff: letting you believe the outside world was dangerous(?) or that you might be vulnerable in the outside world? And then being cruel about you crying when you had to go back to school. Not nice, not good for anyone.
You said:
i just feel ive been running away from even those thoughts, in my numbness, running away from myself. ITS ALL theory though! I'm just getting imatient waiting on answers.
I get impatient too. And I ran away from myself, for a long time. I guess I should ask: what would you like from this board? Our unscientific group diagnosis of your mother and grandfather, or some questions to you about yourself and how you are? Or both? Or do you feel a little like I have, I wanted to ask ‘please show me who I am?’. Please talk some more!
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Welcome CJ
You're in the right place. Your story has one big thing in common with mine: you didn't feel you had the right to exist.
I'm only guessing, but your mother was angry at your dad and you were around to vent on. She had to do something with the anger, so she downloaded it onto you. As for your own feelings, you were allowed to express them because our parents are barely able to deal with their own! This also probably reminded your mother that you are a separate human being (not allowed!)
What you lived through is not "normal" (the bit about your grandfather is appalling) but sometimes it hard to know that when this type of living is all you knew. I truly feel for you. Please stick around for company, read posts, and post more of your own questions as you like. You are welcome here. Best, Seeker
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Hi cj - a story like yours puts my 'survival' story to shame. I know we've had other people feel exhausted just trying to write a reply - I guess you are wading through a lot of emotion in order to communicate and that is exhausting (even if you don't yet recognise the emotion).
There's a lot of discussion about narcissism here but the Board has a much wider remit than that - it's about voicelessness - some of us manage to hide our voices until we find someone to hear us, some people shout a lot to make others hear them - but sometimes people lose theirs altogether. I am glad you have found a small voice to share your story with us. I hope you find a way in time to make it much louder. :wink:
I think you are very brave to post here. There is space for you here when you need it.
R
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To Cj, I hope you can feel inclined to come back and continue to share your experience. It is so much like mine.
To Portia, you were beautiful, a side to you I'd only ever glimpsed before. Thankyou
Guest.
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I too can identify with much of your story. My feelings were constantly put down and rarely acknowledged. The shame, guilt, and anger my N father smeared on me almost resulted in a successful suicide at 21. Now at 44 my boundaries are getting some definition to them, but still need alot of work.
Congrats on finding that voice. I'm still developing mine. Haven't got my story out because I'm not sure what it is. It is coming here and 'listening' to others share their story that I find pieces of mine in them. I'm finding out "normal" in the midst of an N is anything but....
Welcome and hope you come back.... :D
Philski
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Hi c.j. welcome. It's good therapy getting your story out isn't it. I hope you can continue. Being an only child with problem caretakers and parents is a heavy burden. The depersonalisation is so often the result, also a very scary preocess or stage. It's a good thing to come out of and leave behind. I wish you well.
Hi Philski, or should I say, marathon man. Hope organising the run is going okay for you? Or should I say 'Run Forrest Run.' Be good to hear your story when you're ready. I think my neighbour is an N. He's not a direct problem to me, he's as nice as pie, but his daughter is quite oppressed by him in a very controlling smothering way. She's at uni, going to be a physiotherapist. And she's a very good long distance runner, there have been a few local paper stories on her. Everytime they argue they're so loud, her and her dad. No swearing, but he can be very cruel. Whenever we hear it she runs for hours, sometimes late at night. That's a worry. I think running must be good therapy for her.
Thanks for sharing
Guest
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Normal parents have to gain thick skins, especially during the teenage years when they don't want to be seen with you (but still need your money and your emotional support). I remember my teenage sons walking miles (seemingly) ahead of me in the mall so they wouldn't be seen with their "mommy." Talk about rejection :-P
Sometimes I think my mother found it difficult to get close to me, because she feared rejection herself (from me). I can remember times when i was a kid and she would say (if i was being 'horrible' to her, as kids can be) 'Why do you hate me so much????'.
Another time I told her i didnt want her to walk me to school, because I was embarrassed being seen with my mum, because i was worried it might look sissy, and that I'd get teased. She, however, assumed it was because I 'didn't want to be seen with her', and got pissed off and got all defensive and annoyed.
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Somehow I was logged out for that message above, even though I had logged in earlier. sorry!
Lizbeth
Normal parents have to gain thick skins, especially during the teenage years when they don't want to be seen with you (but still need your money and your emotional support). I remember my teenage sons walking miles (seemingly) ahead of me in the mall so they wouldn't be seen with their "mommy." Talk about rejection :-P
Sometimes I think my mother found it difficult to get close to me, because she feared rejection herself (from me). I can remember times when i was a kid and she would say (if i was being 'horrible' to her, as kids can be) 'Why do you hate me so much????'.
Another time I told her i didnt want her to walk me to school, because I was embarrassed being seen with my mum, because i was worried it might look sissy, and that I'd get teased. She, however, assumed it was because I 'didn't want to be seen with her', and got pissed off and got all defensive and annoyed.
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Right on Lizbeth! C.J. you said: “because I 'didn't want to be seen with her'” – your mother putting herself before you and you were a child. That’s selfish and inconsiderate I’m afraid.
Wow, C.J. you write well, so expressively. Can I ask a direct question please? You don’t have to answer but it would help me get a better ‘picture’ of you – and I’d like to have a picture. I’m not sure if you’re male or female but I think you’re male. Does it matter? Well yes, to a point. Men and women think differently and some of how your mother and grandfather responded to you will be based on male/female roles/conditioning etc.
You said: “I'm kind of uneasy I've painted my parents in a biased light”.
Everything we say is subjective! We have to be biased sometimes: have opinions, otherwise we never do anything (well, I don’t, can find myself dithering over a decision for so long I lose the opportunity to decide!). It’s okay to be uneasy. How kind of uneasy? What kind of feeling?
Another question! Do you have favourite books or films and do you like animals? (Okay I’m cheating, that’s two questions!)
About your post: I have felt just like you say, but not for long periods. I watch the clouds scurry across the sky and can’t help my spirits lifting, feeling okay just to be alive. Even if it’s raining, cold and blowing a gale, I can still feel life. That’s a blessing I guess? (And a good point for me sometimes is that it doesn’t have to involve anyone else!) Any similarities for you?
I’d like to talk about fear. But I don’t want to scare you away! (Did you smile?)
When you say ‘get on with life’, what do you see ‘getting on with it’ as being? Is it all the normal stuff that other people tell us we should be doing? Or is there your own stuff you want to get on with? I am interested.
Good to read you again – look forward to the next post! :) P
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Thanks for telling me you’re a bloke! I got it with ‘sissy’ (had already written my post offline) but I’d rather hear it from you, so thanks. Are you late 20s early 30s now? If you like dogs and dogs like you, well that says it all in my opinion: you are a good person! Have you ever had a dog or any other pet at home?
Guilt is one of the biggies. Your mother made you feel guilty – have you noticed? She said to you: “'Why do you hate me so much????” – that’s designed to make you feel guilty: that phrase has no other purpose than to make you feel bad. If she said that to you when you were little, well, it has lasting consequences. You feel like a bad person and you don’t even know why! (Maybe it’s because your mother felt like she was a bad person and wanted to give that feeling to you instead?) I don’t think you’re a bad person and from what you’ve said so far, you have nothing to be guilty about (except maybe Texas Chainsaw!!!) – but I know saying that doesn’t make you feel any better. I gotta ask, why Texas Chainsaw? I haven’t even seen it but isn’t it really very bloody and gruesome? It seems like the opposite end of Finding Nemo! Maybe I’m wrong. What’s good about Chainsaw, seriously?
What would you say to working with animals? (Are you doing any kind of work right now? I’m not…) You don’t have to be in a band to love music – just carry on loving it. What kind of music/groups do you like? And as for girls wanting blokes with money – yeah, some do, it’s a shame – but not all! Some girls look for different things…like a sense of humour which you clearly have!
You said: “I feel i dont have enough passion for anything to want to do it fully” – that’s very true of many people, we just don’t admit it very often. It’s funny but passion for something usually builds up the more you do it. It’s by doing the tiny things (like going for a walk around the block) that you find over a short time you want to do more (like go walking in the countryside). Passion for something grows, it isn’t just there to start with. That’s what I’ve found. Have you ever grown a plant in a pot?
I must leave off the board now and ‘get on’ (with boring domestic stuff) but if you can sometime, tell me more. Bye for now, (in UK GMT time). Stay cool! P
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Hi c.j. and hiya Portia! :)
Hey cj, I think Portia's on to something about finding what you like and taking baby steps in building up a passion for it. I'm a little different in that I get passionate about something, then get distracted by another "passion" etc. But that's my process.
But I just wanted to add: start where you are. Don't talk yourself down about what you have or haven't gotten done. Just do it. That's living. Let go of results and just enjoy what you are doing at that moment. Find your own process and ignore the "shoulds" :wink: .
You might enjoy Julia Cameron's books like the Artists Way or Vein of Gold. They are geared toward recovery and being creative. Anyone, not just artists, can benefit. JC has a very gentle tone that is very encouraging and validating. These books were my best "friends" while I was working through some panic attacks...
Also, can you combine your love of music into another type of activity, like cataloging music, being a d.j., music historian, archivist, recording technician, etc. etc? Ew, I'm getting a little pushy. Didn't mean to overwhelm. What I want to say is that maybe there are things to do in your areas of interest that have only a little involvement with other people or a sort of "comfort zone" built into the nature of the job. One baby step would be to just brainstorm away on all the things you enjoy and what any type of related job would be. Just food for thought.
I also know what you mean about the biased view of parents. It's confusing because I love my parents and feel ambivalent. It's hard to know I didn't get everything thing I needed emotionally and to recognize and accept their imperfections that they deny. But I'm working on it.
Best to you, cj. Seeker
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You're OK, c.j.! I thought about posting those words in response to your earlier 'little posts' but I didn't have anything else to say and it seemed a bit lame all by itself - so I thought I'd leave it til you'd posted some more. Sometimes a poster just needs to witter on a bit - and that's Ok, too.
Loved this : My response (well, um, sorry mum, I'm fucking busy losing my mind, sorry if I'm not to enthusiastic)
. Made me laugh out loud! If you've got a sense of humour you're well on your way back to recovery!!
What's the worst that could happen if someone doesn't like you?? Their loss, don't you think??
Actually a sense of humour is very 'attractive' - so I'm sure people won't dislike you if you get on out there a bit. But it's often difficult to be ourselves when we're waiting for the indifference barrier to go up.
to which she responded (disappointed) 'I just thought you would you would be happy for me, thats all!'.
I'm coming to the conclusion that these difficult parents are just children who never grew up - they had children so they could get parented. Which of course messes up (had to choose my words carefully there!!!) the next generation. I don't suppose for a minute that they did that consciously. I mean, you get married, you have kids, right??! But once the babies arrive, their own memories of lack of parenting get triggered and things start to go haywire.
The thing to be aware of on this board is that we've all got pain and bother and strife in our lives so if you don't get a reply it's not 'you'. Plus, we don't have answers - we can only share our own experience if we happen to have one that's similar. People sometimes miss a post - or they are off doing things in their own lives and don't turn up for a while. Don't take it personally and don't expect too much and you'll probably get loads back in return - in time!!! ;-)
I've just read your earlier post - about not being able to get going because of all the ifs and buts going on in your head. You know the only way to fix that is to do one thing and then another. It doesn't matter if it's the wrong decision - you've wasted enough life already and if you stay put you're only going to waste some more.
You mention Uni. Go to Uni - best way forward. You can squander your time if you want and use it as a social opportunity - most students in the UK seem to do that!! - and there are usually good counsellors on campus who can help.
I know when I was at rock bottom many years ago, I took one miniscule step (signed up for a free evening class) and it led to so much over time....but that's what's scary, isn't it!!!
I didn't get what I really, really, really wanted out of life, but hey! when you've had 'that' kind of start and 'those' kinds of blocks en route, it's a flaming miracle to find you've picked yourself up by the bootstraps and actually got a life again. Just keep walking forward...step, step, step...
Oh, and no point in guessing what other people are thinking about you! You're going to ALWAYS be wrong - guaranteed! :wink:
R
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Hello C.J. on your thread! Just some quick lines from me now. I am friendly I guess – we all are here, it’s an unusual message board - and I am who I say I am (female, 42, in the UK). We get the occasional odd poster here but they go away. So it’s pretty safe here, you can talk away (just remember to keep deleting those internet temporary files after you post).
My story is too long! Enough to say problems with my childhood and mother, father, step-father. I had trouble being anyone distinct, was so used to being on my own and not talked to much. Didn’t see much emotion in the house and certainly not good emotion. I thought I was ‘normal’ until last year! Such a weight has lifted from my shoulders to know that it wasn’t okay and I don’t have to keep believing I’m a bad person because I felt it wasn’t right. I just told people here some real things my mother did and said and they told me: no, that’s not caring or loving, your mother is unwell and you need to look after yourself. It made such a huge difference to me!
You said:
No, I'm not working, I already wrote why. (Sorry, I get annoyed if I feel people don't understand. Probably 'cos I fear being percieved as lazy).
Brilliant! I love it when people are plain straight with me! Thank you. I’m sorry, I didn’t read your posts carefully enough and I made you tell me again – sorry. But I’m really pleased you told me! It shows you do have a sense of self-worth and self-respect and I get to apologise straight away. That’s how I like it. Lazy is a strange word. People say it when they mean “look at you doing ‘nothing’ while I’m doing all this! I’m envious!”. I find I’ve got too much in my head to be really lazy…
Cats are not dogs, you’re right. Cats think that they’re Gods: dogs think that we’re Gods! I guess we need a bit of both for balance?
You said:
Its like occassions when she would ask me 'Whats wrong????', if I didn't appear happy. I always had to be content, even when I wasn't. Being bored was ok, but anything more personal
I recognise this. I wanted to yell: “Just leave me alone!!!” She was always prying, wanting to get a response so she could tell me how to feel and how to support her! I wasn’t allowed to be myself. I remember listening to a sad song on the radio, curled up on a chair age 12. She came up, moved my long hair aside to peer curiously into my face and said in a sort of rough way “are you crying?”. (Rosencrantz, what’s the label for this type of activity?)
Rosencrantz has given you good advice above. So I’ll just say: you’re not really horrible and I think I like you okay? But you might decide you don’t like me! That’s okay. But if you decide that, you better tell me! I think that’s partly how friendship works…talk to you later/tomorrow/whenever…P
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Hi c.j.
I also have a probem with the prospect of being disliked by people, by anyone, like everyone has to like me, because I can't deal with not being liked by people.
Yikes, welcome to the club! I have a horrible time with this as well. I am currently working on me liking myself, finding things to appreciate about myself without regard for other people's opinions. This is very difficult!
The other thing I have only recently grasped is when someone takes an "instant" dislike to me, it really has more to do with where their head is at. I mean it! I know, I used to tell myself that to just to make myself feel better. But now I realize it really is true! Especially now that I am informed about narcissism.
Some people (poor things) feel truly endangered by anyone who is different from them (I'm a different looking sort of person). I must be avoided as though I were going to contaminate their world. It used to make me feel pretty lousy. Now I think they're the ones missing out on a whole lot of life!
And then there are others who feel competitive if you are the same or interested in the same things! I must be eliminated or "taken down" so they are on top and do not feel threatened. I used to think I had failed if I didn't "win them over". I needed their approval. Now I think the super-competitive ones are positively insane. And many of them are angry. Now I save my energy. I don't stop what I am interested in so that they can feel comfortable.
I also try not to condemn these folks too much, because they, too, have a lot of baggage. I realize that they probably are carrying around a lifetime of criticism. I look at these rejections now as "incompatibility" when I am in a good frame of mind.
Hope this helps a little. Do something you like just for today and tell yourself you are worth it. Because you are. Just for being here. :) Best,Seeker
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Hi c.j. :D
I don't think there's too much wrong with you that a different life and healthier parenting wouldn't have fixed. Your childhood situation could only produce problems which at some time were going to need attending to. And you know who's gonna have to do it now, don't you? :lol: :lol:
Unfortunately there's no fairy godmother gonna come down and wave her magic wand and change your life. That's what I finally realised about the crap setup and start I had. :cry: :cry: :cry:
Your gonna have to take the bull by the horns and turn this *#@* pile of shit you've been handed, called your past, and use the knowledge from it to change your future. I'm so glad you're young. Only 30. It seems old maybe to you, but in some cultures you're still a youth. Or ute as some say. I didn't start fixing my pathetic situation and head till I was about your age, and married with children. You're lucky, you only have to focus on you, with no distractions.
And the texas chainsaw thing, as a child I saw every animal on our isolated farmlet slaughtered by my father who flipped out. I remember it like yesterday, hiding in the trees under a big black umbrella with my mother, watching him from a distance. He took a machete to every chook, goose, rabbit, duck, dog cat you name it. Went mad and chopped them up then threw the carcases down the well. My mother had to hide us because she thought he'd gone so far that he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a child or animal.
I hope that's not too gory to share here. I can't watch gore at all, I run out of the room. I don't think I have shared that story here, even my spouse or kids don't know that one. But I tell it to you c.j to say to you, my completely insane beginnings have pretty much been put to rest. And if it can happen for me I think it can happen for anyone. At one time in my life I had such serious depression and depersonalisation that I thought that was me. I thought that was who I was. But it wasn't me, it was merely side-effects of a totally putrid childhood that sent my head into outerspace, into orbit.
The hiding silenced child in me has slowly come out, like Boo in "To Kill A Mockingbird," and is getting better. But I had to get determined. I never would have believed once that I could hold down a job, let alone raise a family, run a business and have good friends. But I have and I do. It's called making a life for yourself. You are the potter. You are in control.
You sound okay to me, :D just have to get rid of, or learn to control those powerless ghosts of the past. Even therapy and the odd bit of medication can help. Building your life happens little by little. Try to do something slightly mildly different each day. Talk to one new person, even at the cash register when you're shopping. Other advice above, enrol in a class for fun, don't bother about the exams if the pressures too much. That's what I did.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. Slowly you start building a life. It takes time, but believe me it's worth it, and you absolutely positively definitely deserve it. People will help you. You'll be surprised. Have a good life c.j you deserve it.
Guest
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Hello, c.j. and welcome. I am pretty new here myself.
Hey, I think you might enjoy reading a book some of us here recommend. It is called **Trapped in the Mirror: Adult children of narcissists in their struggle for self** and it's by Elan Golomb, Ph.D.
Although I am not clearly able to identify my parents -- one or both of them -- as narcissists, the results of my upbringing ring true to so much of what is described in the book. I can really relate.
And the behavior of my parents, and how the relate/d to us kids and to each other is so similar to MUCH of what is in Dr. Golomb's book.
I find the book extremely useful, and easy reading, too.
I live in the USA, btw. And I've never been a woman interested in men with money. I don't own a car, and avoid men who do, for one thing. I never wanted to learn to drive, but my dad forced me to when I was 16. I finally bought a car (from him) when I was 26 and owned cars till I was in my 50s. I sold my car about 7 y ears ago, and have never looked back. I was so happy to meet my sweetheart -- who doesn't own a car anymore either!!!!! He is 74, and I am 62 y/o. My dad died 4 years ago at age 86, and he and Mother (particularly my dad) made me very dependent on their money and support.
c.j., you say, if I read you rightly, that you are living with your parents. I think the bravest, wisest and also a very difficult thing, would be for you to earn money and get your own apartment. A person is not an adult till they are self supporting. Do you think your mother needs you as emotional support of some sort for her? My dad was very, very emotionally dependent on me. He "bought" my affection by giving me money. Could it be that your parents are buying your affection by giving you a place to stay? This weakens you, and makes you feel small and unworthy. I think this is likely in your case, anyway. It sure was in my own case! My parents did their best to infantilize me, keeping me weak, causing me to believe I was inept at anything practical that would make me able to support myself financially. Dr. Golomb's book talks A LOT about this -- she says that anything the adult child of a narcissist does to live independently -- to BE a separate person from the parent -- is considered treason! Does this sound familiar? You don't need to answer this, but it is something to consider, anyway, I'd guess.
Flo
Flo
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c.j. There are places to work that are acceptable to bright, creative people like yourself and me. It is a matter of discovering them. Hang out here and people can give you ideas. I know I can -- tell us your interests and I/we can brainstorm about ways for you to find work that is meaningful to you, where you will likely be able to find satisfaction, and not want "out" quick!!!
I had terrible problems with "jobs." I had no problems finding jobs, when the economy was reasonably okay. But I could not keep the jobs I got, due to personality conflicts, and boredom or finding ethical conflicts, etc. I think this is typical of many people who came from some types of homes. I have an intuitive feeling you may have this problem? Could I be at least somewhat correct in this feeling of why you are not working now? Stick around here and maybe we can assist you in pulling your financial situation together and getting out on your own. Not to be rich, but to be your own man.
Flo
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Me again (can't seem to log in as it wont accept my name/ password.)
When I was in college, its strange because i seemed to get on with everybody. People liked me. But I get the feeling they always thought i was a bit of a mystery, and like i was holding something back. I was very self conscious. The personality I let out (act! God I didn't/Don't even know who I was anyway) was an ameable one I guess. Easy to get on with. The very fact i ran into conflict with so few people was no doubt the fact that I was like this. Then again, I guess I am an ok person, but at the same time, god knows what I'd do, or done, if i ran into conflict with someone who didn't like me, esecially as im questioning the way i've always been (having to be liked/accepted). Thats partly my fear to, and i need to know i can handle people, before going out there. Its scarey, especially when i fragment (or threaten to) with every new step. Trying to hold who I am together. Its like building a wall, just for it to keep falling back down. Trying to get a foothold.
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Jeez - What parents do to a guy.
It doesn't matter what label to stick on your mother, she ain't good for you - or maybe she's extra careful about you because you are so sensitive - it's difficult to know sometimes where it all starts. But it becomes a vicious downward spiral.
But the only person who can get you out of this is you - and you just need to take that step, step, step and just stick something out until you get to the end. You won't die and you won't implode. Just keep on going.
I've got a link here that relates to something you said in an earlier post : http://www.saskworld.com/bodymindspirit/edition17/07_article_judith.htm
If someone says you're being 'sensitive' it can be a patronising put down to make you stop being a whining ninny but sometimes we ARE just too sensitive for 'this' world. So if this relates to you, you need to start learning how to keep the world at arm's length in energy terms rather than in 'real' terms. It's possible to be hugely sensitive AND be in the world and around people.
You're moving out - that's a great step. Your mother may be genuinely worried or she may be a vampire (!) but either way, just decide what you want to do and just keep moving - step, step, step.
Best wishes to you, cj
R
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Hello again cj - I wrote that post before you wrote your last one!! Just to say that the only way to know if you can handle folk is to get on out there and do it. Practice on us, by all means :wink: But I think you need much more one on one support from someone kind who can help you take those baby steps. Sometimes life IS just too overwhelming for us to do it all alone.
R
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Yes, I know what you mean. I find it hard to *connect* with people online, and believe me ive been chatting on it for four years, even baring in mind the format and its limitations. I've had countless 'friends' coem and go. People don't *Stick* with me if you get what I mean. I either block out the possibility of forming any closeness, or things just don't seem to register properly, and *get through* to me. Perhaps I am running away from myself/feeling, as usual. I think its just years and years of not getting help. I've closed myself of, or my emotions and pressed myself down. It really is like im all locked up. The result is anxiety/fear.
My therapy is all I've got really, but it is helping, slowly. I think I need to have a breakdown, but I'm scared of it.
Anyway, thanks for your post.:)
Hello again cj - I wrote that post before you wrote your last one!! Just to say that the only way to know if you can handle folk is to get on out there and do it. Practice on us, by all means :wink: But I think you need much more one on one support from someone kind who can help you take those baby steps. Sometimes life IS just too overwhelming for us to do it all alone.
R
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Re: Your post 'Guest'. That stuff about your childhood sounds horrible, puts my 'story' to shame. Glad your past it though, now.
How long did you have depersonalisation for if you don't mind me asking?
Your post is really inspiring. Thanks.:).
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Hi c.j. :D
I think I must have had depersonalisation and disassociation most of my life. :roll:
I would sort of go in and out of it. I'd come out of it like this :shock:
It doesn't happen much anymore though. :D
I still worry sometimes before I drive the car, and used to get panic attacks before I had to drive anywhere. :(
Especially with my kids in the car. :shock: Or I'd trance-out and forget to pick them up on time. I'd be off in Bermuda 8)
"Help, am I on the right side of the road, I can't remeber which side I am supposed to drive on :roll:
I sure hope so, :(
Damn I wish I could see a bloody car somewhere :evil:
Oh shit, a car, I gotta get back on the right side of the road :shock:"
But then I talk to myself, and say everthing's going to be alright. :D
I've learned to 'self soothe', and so I know I can do whatever I need to do.
And I pace myself. I definitely don't over-commit myself anymore.
I under-commit. I leave the over-committing to the healthier souls out there who never had to deal with crap I've had to.
And I'm no longer determined to be independent. I ask for help. :oops: Even if it means some embarrassment.
I've done a lot of talk therapy, and have been building lots of good things and people into my life. Having kids drove me to keep making everything better and work on me getting healthier, mainly I was motivated for my kids.
But here's one strange thing. :idea: This came out in therapy recently. The fact that as a kid and young adult I had depersonalised and disassociated was I think the very thing that prevented me from ever suiciding.
Whatever bad things happened, it wasn't happening to me, and I moved in a surreal world of what to me were like deja vu experiences. Anyway enough going there.
Writing is excellent therapy. I once was asked to write about one of the best things that ever happened to me and I haven't stopped writing since. :D :D :D :D I think I've found sunshine after the storm.
You gotta love life,
Guest
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ive typed printed these replies out (I dont have my own p.c atm) so i can read them properly and take them in. I really appreciate them. (I hate reading online!)
Does anyone know if its possible to get posts deleted if not a member. I'm just kinda uncofortable leaving all that stuff up, and feel ive been far too open. Oh well...
Have a good weekend....
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Dear c.j.
What a descriptive bunch of posts you have done here. Wow!! I am HIGHLY, HIGHLY IMPRESSED with your ability to write so clearly.
I can relate, because this is how I myself felt for many years when I was younger. I don't know when these feelings finally left. Maybe when I was about 30-35? Maybe when I got into Al-Anon? I have a feeling that Al-Anon had a LOT to do with leaving these feelings of disassociation behind, for me.
Do you look at reflections of yourself on every possible occasion? I used to wonder what I really looked like. See, my father told me I was so beautiful. But I had acne from the age of 11 to 21! And my parents made me wear braces on my teeth, sent me to modelling school when I was 12, made me go to body building school because I was too "skinny," (thin), and Mother made me self-conscious by getting me a bra when I had not developed at all! In fact, I still don't wear one, since I took it off when I was 21. She finally made me wear "falsies," a padded bra. She made me have hair permanents, and I thought my hair was ugly, until when I went off to college, a girl told me my hair was beautiful, and suggested I set it on rollers, instead of bobbie pins. So I did, and yes! I was beautiful and I loved it!! Now, my hair is one of the most gorgeous things about me. However, it took a full 10 years for it to regain its natural wave, after so many years of Mother's home-permanents. Daddy also told me I was a blonde, but I didn't think I was. People also did not believe me when I said I have green eyes. I was born with black hair, but the baby hair changed over to golden blonde hair, then it gradually turned darker,till in high school it was not blonde anymore. Daddy's hair was light blonde as an infant, too, as we can see from his infant pictures; but as an adult it was medium brown. He still thought of himself as a blonde.
So I was very confused.
I still find that people will not "allow" me to have green eyes, and I have to tell them that my driver's license shows that I do! Only other people with green eyes allow it -- and usually it is Jews or Kaffee-au-lait people whose eyes are the same as mine who allow me to have green eyes. Other Caucasians who have pale green eyes won't let me have green eyes, either. But Jews who have green eyes and Kaffee-au-lait people whose eyes are green recognize my eyes right away! This still makes me sad, because I love having green eyes, find it very unusual and distinctive, but nobody ever comments on them except an occasional Kaffee-au-lait person or Jew or child!
People insist that I have hazel eyes. But if you look up "hazel" in the dictionary, you'll find that this word means more reddish. Hazel is actually much more unusual than green! I tried looking for hazel eyed people, and they ARE out there. Their eyes are lovely!! Sort of rust-colored, and they shine! But my eyes are NOT hazel!!!
So I used to try to surreptitiously look at myself in mirrors, store window glass, and anything shiny, to see what I "really" looked like. I don't do that anymore. I don't even particularly pay attention to in-store video cameras that get me in them.
But so much of what you wrote, c.j. sounds so much like me when I was younger. Personally, I am not so sure that "just do it" is the whole answer. It sounds like a major mental health problem, if you ask me. Which is what I have -- a major mental health problem. Not that your mh problem is the same as mine. It does not sound like it is.
But I have a friend who didn't discover she had mental illness till she was in her 50s. (I didn't either.) But the way she accepted this diagnosis was this: A therapist told her, about the fact that she could not hold a job: "Listen, E...." the therapist said, "Other people hold jobs, raise families, have husbands, and these things are not all that difficult for them. For you, they are excruciatingly difficult! When normal life is this difficult, THAT IS CALLED MENTAL ILLNESS."
So she accepted right then and there that she was mentally ill. And she began therapy on a regular basis. Over the 4 years that I have known her, she has gradually improved in not only her "functioning," but also her overall demeanor. She is not negative anymore; she is not agitated; she is much more cheerful. [That's in her case. I don't know what the effect would be on your disposition, because you are not her!]
But do you see what I mean, c.j.? It's a slow process, but it works, if you get started, get some professional help, and hang in there.
Flo
Flo
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Can you tell me what you mean by: looking at my self on every possible occassion, Flo ? (thank you for your post btw!) Why I would do that do you think, is what I guess I am getting at. Or how does it fit with your experience rather!?
I have been very self absorbed in the past I think, now that you mention it, looking in mirrors and whatnot. But I don't know why. A lot of times in my teens and onwards I think, I used to look in the mirror a lot (And it wasn't vanity, I can asure you!!!! Although sometimes I wonder if I am a little narcistic myself!:(). I certainly am self absorbed as you can tell!
I recal reading a self help/improvment book once in my teens (I wasn't even sure why I was reading it, I just felt something wasn't right, and needed to be fixed, maybe my 'shyness' (sarcastic apostrophies!) (i.e. fear of people). It said to look in the mirror, and say nice things, but when I looked I just felt nothing.
I have to say (not a critisism) having it spelt out like that, like you did, about having a mental health problem, is rather scarey. And depressing. I'm not sure it really has sunk in, even after 11 or so years of being classed as depressed by a doctor, and 2 years of therapy.
As I say, I am getting help, once a week therapy. I even planned to get MORE therapy lol, i.e. a different treatment at the same time, on a different day, to speed things up, but my group therapist thinks it would be a bad idea, to have two things going on at once!
Its all so depressing, it feels like Damage Limitation now.
Seeker, I think it was you (pardon me if I'm mistaken) who spoke of people who feel 'endangered' by people who are 'different'. Its funny, but it made me think (not sure if its the same, albeit on a smaller scale) of 'one upman ship'). Like when you are talking to someone about something, maybe even a common interest, and some piece of knowledge (however small) you might put to the person, which might clash with their idea, or belief, is taken as a threat.
Sometimes people even make crap up, just so they have something to say, or brag about, like they have some 'special knowledge' (lol, its funny really). I just think 'god, stop being so bloody petty!', 'I'm not in competition with you here'! But understanding *why* makes all the difference.
I used to collect comic books with a friend of a friend in school, (I was friends with his brother). We could have been friends too, but he had this streak of competitivness, which renedered him being quite ruthless in his efforts to outdo me. Again, at the time, I just couldn't understand why he was like this. The ironic thing is, at the time, I thought he was better than me! (Then again most people, in my eyes, probably were!). (My perception was scewered and filtered out other peoples failings/frailties).
I won't go into other things he did to 'get one over on me!).
Ok, this is kids, but I guess some, or many adults, never grow out of it.
I guess the only reason it bugs me really, is a lot of people who don't grow out of it, go on to seek posititions of power, with wider implications, its depressing.
Rosencrantz:
When you speak of an 'indifference' barrier, do you mean learning not to give a damn what people think? That would be a beautiful feeling I imagine, not one I recal having.
Guest:
I'd just like to say again, thanks for your post (not playing favourites here btw:)), I just think it was quite brave of you to post what you did about your early years.
*SPOILER*
My experience of depersonalisation is probably the worst thing about it all.
People say to me, or have done 'You'll be ok, I mean if you werent strong you wouldn't be here, right?'. But thats the irony of it. Its like, a part of you *dies* for real, so I reason that I'm not strong when depersonalised. If I was, I'd be fully 'with it' and not, at times 'between life and death, in a limbo'. Maybe thats depressive thinking, but its hard to imagine being 'out of' that state' when 'in it' and imagine things could ever be the same again.
(I know though, it can be, from past 'in, then out ' experence. Its just a horrible place to be, and it scares me. I worry I'm seeing something I shouldn't sometimes (not literally, and nothing concrete).
Portia: I liked what you said in the part about cats and dogs in your post as well btw!:)
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Oh nearly forgot..... Guest! I agree with your theory about depersonalisation being a 'shield' to block/cover up depression, at least in some cases. For me it serves that fuction a lot i think, even though a lot of the time, i might not even be aware of it doing so.
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c.j.
Guest here, and thanks so much for the affirmation. I never know what to say half the time, but I think it's good therapy getting my head around it, whatever 'it is' and getting it out. I hope you're getting somewhere with all this. Did you get to delete any of the stuff you wanted to? It's hard sharing some sh*@*y experiences best left behind. And then thinking about the ways the old brain and heart have worked out strange ways to cope or function as you say.
But I had to laugh at your unintentional misspelling of 'function'. It's priceless and I've added it to my vocab now. I now have a new word for my dysfunctional functioning, I'm now gonna call it 'fuctioning'. It's when my totally f*#%ed up functioning system is in control. So I'm either 'functioning', which are my healthy ways of living, or 'fuctioning' which are my unhealthy ways of living. Thanks c.j. and I hope you're doing okay.
Guest
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Hi Guest. Glad to be of service!:) I haven't had a chance to look into getting them deleted. Would I just email one of the moderators and ask nicely?
It is heavy indeed. Working through all of this. I feel like I've been in a bubble and its like.... :shock:....so much to wade through.
But I did one good thing today. I put a small amount of money into my bank account, towards getting a place of my own. Its a small step (and a small amount of money lol), but its good intentions and will build up week by week.
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Hi, cj--
E-mail me at ragrossman@voicelessness.com, and let me know which posts you would like deleted.
Best,
Richard
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Yay cj! :D Congrads on making that step with your bank account: money may not buy happiness but it sure is one good way to independence. 8) I’m so happy for you!
I looked up a Churchill quotation for you:
“Odd things animals.
All dogs look up to you. All cats look down to you. Only a pig looks at you as an equal.”
(I love all animals, and find patting pigs very comforting. Call me weird, but it’s my thing. :wink: ) P
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You are cool portia lol. Thanks for the qoute.
This is a tricky time for me right now. I'm working through a lot of stuff in the past, and how I feel about it, and being at home just isn't the best place to be, when thats going on!
I mean if it could mean 'me' changing as a person, I can see a possibility of running into conflict, or arouse conflict rather, (even though, being the nice chap that I am, I wouldn't be doing anything bad in particular), just might be hard to hide my moods. Maybe I'm catastophising.
Anyway, I will bide my time for now, and see what disaster awaits, while saving these pennies! I'm doubting my ability to keep it together though:(.
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This is a tricky time for me right now. I'm working through a lot of stuff in the past, and how I feel about it, and being at home just isn't the best place to be, when thats going on!
quote]
Hmmm. Not sure if theres irony in that.
Quote CJ: Me, me, me, me!
(Scared of becoming a narcisisist. :) )
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I'd just like to share this.
Portia, your story about hearing the song on the radio? At first, it reminded me of one time i was signing along to the radio when I was a teenager, and my mother coming through from the kitchen and saying 'can't you just listen to it???' because she was in a mood. In retrospect it makes me wonder how she could be so annoyed by the sound of her own child expressing happiness (I loved music, still do)....
But more specifically, it reminded me of when I used to daydream as a child.
I used to daydream about stuff, when i was young. I recal one time I was sitting watching t.v. with my mother, and I retreated into a imaginative daydream. This annoyed my mother though, probably because she wasn't allowed access to this this inner world, and/or wasn't being shared with her, and she'd say something like 'whats wrong????' like, annoyed. In retrospect I think my mum was scared of me. Or scared of something, always. She was very practical as well (re: 'dreaming') .
Its sad really.