Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on February 05, 2007, 10:11:20 AM

Title: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 05, 2007, 10:11:20 AM

I am trying to work some things out.  Something is bothering me. It is an old something.  I don't know what it is but it has to go because it is in the way of my getting on with life. 

I am getting increasingly irritible after a real reprieve.  I am going to try to work some things out here.

My mother is really bothering me.  I know the llittle things that are getting to me but it is not really the little things is is something big underneath it all.  It is something about me and I want to get it out.  I am angry about my life circumstances but that anger is not my motivator.  I have come to see that until recently my motivator was to avoid shame.  But that turned into a paralyzer so all motivation was lost.  I cannot live with shame as the only motivator any more even if it worked.  I must set positive goals as motivators.  That does not seem so difficult but I realize that there is a powerful uindercurrent of unconscious strings still pulling on me and I want to bring them to light. 

I react in anger to things my mother does and does not do.  This really has very little to do with my mother - it has to do with me.  I feel victimized and little things she does are pricks in that pain.  I know that if I shift my attitude that I can begin to ignor these little pricks.  I have finally come to see that she does not intend what she does and is unaware of much of it.  It has to do with feeling powerless and that can be changed be changing my attitude.    My powerlessness runs incredibly deep.  I think that I am unconsciously holding on to the powerlessness out of some kind of fear.  It is somehow attached to loneliness and some strange desire for pity.  These things will not help me.  I must let go of them. 

As I write, I have no clue how I will get out of this but I know that my desire to do so is a start and by airing this weakness is a good step.  For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me and help but it is the story of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly - any assistance will damage the process. 

There is some odd balance between giving to others and needing that giving or that attention to come back.  That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root.  As a child and an adult I have waited to receive and raged when I didn't and then waited again.   This is the pattern that has repeated itself over and over.  This is the pattern that my husband and I repeated. 

The clear answer it to quit waiting and to go out and get what I need for myself.  Something is scary about that.  It has to do with being cut off and rejected but I'm not sure what.  It has to do with being belittled, and criticized and made fun of.  It has to do with needing help and getting shame instead.  That is it. 

If I sit and wait (and seeth) then I am talked about behind my back and ridiculed but if I reach out and try to do something I am sabotaged and that is worse.  Now I must take this and do something with it. 

Another stumbling block I have to work on has to do with perfectionism.  My NPDfather was ridiculed into perfectionism as a young child and he continued the family tradition.  He became perfectionistic into OCD and paralysis.  Like father llike daughter (sans the OCD).  Good Enough must intervene in the inaudible tapes in my mind. - Sorry to ramble - thanks for listening. - GS

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: CB123 on February 05, 2007, 10:23:23 AM

GS,

I think your butterfly analogy is a good one.  Your dilemma sounds familiar to me and it's something I want to think about too.

Here's a thought to roll around:  Is there a relationship between your perfectionism and your victim role?  Does it feel safer not to risk?  Just a thought.  I havent actually explored it myself.  I'll be interested in hearing if you see anything there.

CB

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: axa on February 05, 2007, 10:46:59 AM

gAINING sTrengh,

FAR FROM BORING.

Quote from: Gaining Strength on February 05, 2007, 10:11:20 AM

 I am angry about my life circumstances but that anger is not my motivator.  I have come to see that until recently my motivator was to avoid shame.  But [/color

This is familiar to me.  I do not understand it but I feel a huge sense of shame.  Very interesting, maybe I can work some stuff out with t his also.

  I realize that there is a powerful uindercurrent of unconscious strings still pulling on me and I want to bring them to light. 

Yes yes yes,

 I feel victimized

So do I and only realise that I have cast myself in this role all my life.  I have been up on the cross for as long as I can remember.  i believe that deep down there is something "honourable" about being a victim.  I have some crazy unconscious notion that in the end I will be rewarded!!!!!!!! - all of this is only coming to light to me recently.

 My powerlessness runs incredibly deep.  I think that I am unconsciously holding on to the powerlessness out of some kind of fear.  It is somehow attached to loneliness and some strange desire for pity.

GS I so understand this right now.  I feel somehow it is connected with our voicelessness and our invisibility.  Like in the end the good people, who sacrifice everything get seen and appreciated by everyone.  Happy endings..........not true.

These things will not help me.  I must let go of them. 

I think it is not as easy as choosing to let them go.  I believe when there is a deep understand and acknowledgement of my behaviour then by claiming the part I am rejecting the thing will dissapate.


 For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me and help but it is the story of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly - any assistance will damage the process. 

Nobody can do it for you.  I hope that offering my perspective can useful in some way.

There is some odd balance between giving to others and needing that giving or that attention to come back.

I have been thinking about this also.  I believe I "loved" Xn I gave and gave and gave and got nothing except abuse in return.  It is as  if there is some switch in me that goes into overdrive as soon as someone starts taking in an abusive way.  Instead of walking I throw myself in more and then rage when I do not get what I want.  But it is so obvious, what I wanted was never there and I kept after it.

 That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root.  As a child and an adult I have waited to receive and raged when I didn't and then waited again.   This is the pattern that has repeated itself over and over.  This is the pattern that my husband and I repeated. 

OH GS MY SCRIPT


The clear answer it to quit waiting and to go out and get what I need for myself.  Something is scary about that.  It has to do with being cut off and rejected but I'm not sure what.  It has to do with being belittled, and criticized and made fun of.  It has to do with needing help and getting shame instead.  That is it. 

GS I think it has something to do with being Adult.  Acknowledging that as an adult you are responsible for your own well being and of course it is scary.  It is easy to look after others to put them before us.  Well Who do you think you are TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF this is an old voice in my head.

If I sit and wait (and seeth) then I am talked about behind my back and ridiculed but if I reach out and try to do something I am sabotaged and that is worse.  Now I must take this and do something with it. 


GS

For me this is a great post as I have been thinking a lot about what has been going on in this post.  I want to start a thread about some of the stuff.


xxxaxa

There is something here about other people.  This is YOUR life GS.  It seems like you are giving a lot of power to others, what they say.  What they do or do not say you cannot control.  It is so scary standing up for yourself when you have not done it before.  It is hard for us to say I have a right, I am as important as you, I WANT TOO and I WIll give to me.

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Hopalong on February 05, 2007, 12:12:25 PM

GS,
What clear deep thinking you are doing, and at what a level of honesty!
This can't be anything but a very GOOD track you are on.

Thank you very very much for sharing this. I can relate to so many pieces of it.

My paralysis is so mixed up. At work I am competent, effective, extremely responsive and responsible and creative and effective. What I do makes a difference. At home I care for my mother with similar competence (except in the area of keeping paperwork up to date).

Caring for myself in terms of basic organization and clutter control is so simple. Yet this over and over and over becomes the way I act out something in a very self-sabotaging way. I just don't get it.

I don't want so much to be rescued as wish I had a daily partner in my life. Someone to whom I could say, yeah, I'm taking the dog to the vet, then hmmmm, we need groceries, okay, see you tonight, let's have spaghetti, my turn to cook.

I think because my parents' marriage was soooo enmeshed (and the silver lining of that was orderly and cooperative like a VERY well-oiled machine), that all my images of a serene and orderly life seem, in my mind at a usually-buried level) to be connected to doing domestic order and self-care in the context of a partnership.

No partnership? I take care of my boss, my daughter, my mother...but not myself.

Thanks again GS, and Axa...this is starting an important train of thouight for me too.

I'm too tired to think very clearly but will be eager to follow posts on this.

Hops

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 05, 2007, 12:20:32 PM

CB - it is definitely safer to NOT risk.  I think you have something about a connection between the perfectionism and victim but I cannot quite connect the dots.  Can you connect these two things?

Axa - don't start another thread - do it right here.  There is no hi-jacking here.  I wasn't even sure what I was doing except trying to get something out.

Can you write more about this: I think it is not as easy as choosing to let them go.  I believe when there is a deep understanding and acknowledgement of my behaviour then by claiming the part I am rejecting the thing will dissapate. This seems to make sense. But tell me, how do you claim the part that you are rejecting?  I can't quite get my mind wrapped around this.

GS I think it has something to do with being Adult.  Acknowledging that as an adult you are responsible for your own well being and of course it is scary.  It is easy to look after others to put them before us.  Well Who do you think you are TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF this is an old voice in my head.

Yes AXA - This is really it.  I see it now in what I wrote, "That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root. "  I think I am angry at being responsible for my needs, just as my parents once were.  That is very damaging and I must do something about it.  Once again fear is at the root and I have learned how to overcome fear.

This is YOUR life GS.  It seems like you are giving a lot of power to others, what they say.  What they do or do not say you cannot control.  It is so scary standing up for yourself when you have not done it before.  It is hard for us to say I have a right, I am as important as you, I WANT TOO and I WIll give to me.

That's right AXA.  As a victim, I can take what is offered me and then rail and rage if it isn't what I want or need and yet refuse to do anything about it myself because I am a victim.  And as a victim I am not really responsible for the "unfortunate" situation I am in - it is their fault.  

I can see that this is an issue of responsibility vs. fear.  

Thanks AXA and CB.  Your comments are helping me work through this.  

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 05, 2007, 12:28:29 PM

Hops - I see that you are pointing at the culprit somewhere in these words:

Caring for myself in terms of basic organization and clutter control is so simple. Yet this over and over and over becomes the way I act out something in a very self-sabotaging way. I just don't get it.

I don't want so much to be rescued as wish I had a daily partner in my life. Someone to whom I could say, yeah, I'm taking the dog to the vet, then hmmmm, we need groceries, okay, see you tonight, let's have spaghetti, my turn to cook.

I think because my parents' marriage was soooo enmeshed (and the silver lining of that was orderly and cooperative like a VERY well-oiled machine), that all my images of a serene and orderly life seem, in my mind at a usually-buried level) to be connected to doing domestic order and self-care in the context of a partnership.

or could it be that it is a way to ensure that you are not in an enmeshed situation replicating your mother's smothering role.  Did you as a child tie the "orderliness" and "enmeshment" or perhaps smothering aspect of your mother together so that your disorderliness is actually a confused attempt to keep from replicating those aspects of your mother that you so desparately need to avoid?

This is such hard stuff.

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Hopalong on February 05, 2007, 12:49:29 PM

Oh my goodness, GS. I am so glad you are so smart.

So...when I have things in proper order, organized and adultly maintained, I feel smothered.

...when I create disorder, unruly rebellious mess and chaos, I can breathe.

Oh my god. You've got something here.

I don't fully fully get it yet, very tired brain this morning, but I am grateful.

And a thing you and Axa were talking about...being angry for having to be responsible for yourself.

I absolutely hate this about myself but I think it's true. I am so tired of being responsible.
I have worked many jobs, taken care of one child, two childish husbands, both parents, one dying father, now one very elderly mother. I think my long period of multiple jobs and repeated jobhunts took a lot of stuffing out of me in the last 8 years as well (I had about 10 jobs if you count long freelance contracts that ran out. But I must have applied for 100.)

At times I resent my dog (not for long!).

And other people on here have many many children and much harder rows to hoe, so why in heck do I feel resentment.

What gives me the right to resent ordinary adult responsibilities? What gives me the right? Is it entitlement? A horrid Nspot?

So it's failure, self-loathing, frustration, incompetence, rationalizing....blah blah.

Boy does this call up difficult stuff.

Thank you for that HUGE insight GS.

Bless you.

Hops

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 05, 2007, 01:00:56 PM

What gives me the right to resent ordinary adult responsibilities? What gives me the right? Is it entitlement? A horrid Nspot?

So it's failure, self-loathing, frustration, incompetence, rationalizing....blah blah.

Boy does this call up difficult stuff.

Yeah, I know.  But we couldn't look at these parts of ourselves (and everyone has some of them) if we were not ready to look at them and move on.  The scary part would be if we denied them.  Personally, I don't know how we could have grown up in N households without taking on some of these traits - if not simply for survival. 

I credit this place and the anonymity that allows me to look at these unpleasant aspects of myself without getting labeled.

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Leah on February 05, 2007, 01:15:58 PM

~ Butterfly  ~


Once upon a time in a land far far away.
There was a wonderful old man who loved everything. Animals, spiders, insects....

One day while walking through the woods the
nice old man found a cocoon.

Feeling lonely he decided to take the cocoon home
to watch its beautiful transformation from
a funny little cocoon to a beautiful butterfly.

He gently placed the cocoon on his kitchen table, and
watched over it for days

Suddenly on the seventh day the cocoon started to move
It moved frantically! The old man felt sorry
for the little butterfly inside the cocoon.
He watched it struggle and struggle and struggle!

Finally the old man feeling so sorry for the cocooned
butterfly rushed to its aide with a surgical scalpel and
gently slit the cocoon
so the butterfly could emerge.

Just one slice was all it took,
and the butterfly broke free
from its cocoon only to wilt over in a
completely motionless state.

The old man did not know what to think.
Had he accidentally killed the little butterfly?
No, it's still moving a little bit.! Maybe it's sick!

Who the heck would know?
He was dumbfounded, and quite perplexed!
What should I do, he said. Well he felt so sorry for the little creature
that he decided the best thing he could
do for the butterfly
was to place it gently back into its cocoon.

He did so, and placed a drop of honey
on it to seal the cocoon,
leaving the butterfly to nestle
in its natural state.

Well the next day he noticed that the
cocoon was moving again.
Wow, he said! It moved and moved and
struggled and struggled.
Finally the butterfly broke free
from its cocoon and
stretched its wings out far and wide.
Big time yawn! Its beautiful
wings were filled with wonderful colors!
It looked around and took off!
It was flying! Its so beautiful!
The old man was jumping with joy! Wow!

Go Baby, Go! And that wonderful butterfly did that just that,
it flew and flew till it was almost
out of the old mans sight.
What a joy, he exclaimed!
But then he started to think.
What did I do wrong by trying
to help that beautiful little butterfly out at first?


The old man went into town.
Found the library, and
read every book he could on
butterflies and cocoons.

Finally the answer appeared.
The butterfly has to struggle and struggle
while inside the cocoon.
That's how it gets its strength.
That's just what they are designed to
overcome in order to be strong and beautiful.

Well needless to say the old man was shocked,saddened, and somewhat relieved.

Now he knows the reason why they do what they do.
It was only his perception that made
it appear that the butterfly was
having a hard time.
Well from then on the old man knew that loving
something sometimes means to
pray for it and cheer it on!


He realized that God was wonderful, and
that sometimes appearances aren't what
they seem to be.
That we all are beautiful butterflies,
even though we have our apparent struggles in life...


Author Unknown  

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 05, 2007, 06:21:29 PM

Hopsy, I don't know if this rings true for you or not.  With me, it was the fact that all the responsibility and care-taking came along way too early in life and was at a level that I could never really handle well.  For me, I had to subvert my own needs at age one when my sister was born and my mother messed around with my sleep schedule to suit her needs.  And I remember vividly always having to consider every act on my part for repercussions with my parents and sister.  So, that would be from pre-school onwards.  That is way too much responsibility way too soon.  Let alone having my first son at age 18.  So, I would say it is not necessarily the number of people you were responsible for, but the timing and the particular skills involved being perhaps something of a stretch for you depending on your talents or developmental level, etc.

(Oh, and sometimes I resent my cats, so you're not the only one to sometimes wish the animals could feed themselves.....)

Pennyplant

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 05, 2007, 06:27:13 PM

GS, I think I'm kind of where you're at these days.  Still having trouble with feelings of shame.  And of course, anger is a big one these days.  Sometimes I just feel kind of lost.  It's all so overwhelming most of the time.  Sometimes it helps just to lose myself in some kind of engrossing activity.  That's what was good about my new assignment at work.  It gave my mind a completely different avenue to explore.  It distracted me for awhile from the analyzing and problem-solving.  And that was good for me.  Restful.  It allowed some new stuff to grow in me.  Now I hope it "sticks".

Guess I don't have any concrete suggestions for you.  It does seem like the posting itself is very good for you (and for us, too, of course!)  Maybe just keep going and see where the ideas lead to next.

Pennyplant

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: axa on February 05, 2007, 07:35:00 PM

GS

really tired so I will just address one point then come back tomoroow as I want to talk about Hops writing etc.

How do you claim the part you are rejecting

I believe the more we reject something the more power we give it.  I think its called the paradoxical theory of change.  I do not want to take care of myself, i want to punish myself.  So what I do now is I acknowledge this, I say I do not want to take care of myself, not in a judgmental way just as a fact.  The more that I integrate this voice the less power it seems to have.  When I try and push it away and say I MUST TAKE CARE OF ME ........ the less I do it.

About me being the victim.  I now acknowledge that part of my being in a relationship with XN was because I was seeking out punishment, not consciously may I add but I was.  When I start sabotaging my day by allowing him into my thoughts/life I just say to myself, again without judgment, I am punishing me..... funny thing is that the desire to punish ME lessens and I get on with something else.

Dont know if this makes any sense.

Very tired,

will talk tomorrow

night all,

axa

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Hopalong on February 05, 2007, 08:02:33 PM

Thank you for this, Axa...it makes a lot of sense. Not repressing the inner wish and just letting it be what it is:

Quote

I say I do not want to take care of myself, not in a judgmental way just as a fact.  The more that I integrate this voice the less power it seems to have.  When I try and push it away and say I MUST TAKE CARE OF ME ........ the less I do it.

I believe you. I'm going to work on being more accepting of myself, then see if it's easier to get into gear.

Ta for now, and thanks again,
Hops

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Dazed1 on February 05, 2007, 08:53:02 PM

Hi GS,

Your post is very powerful.  You are doing a lot of “self” work and it is paying off.  Congrats.  So many things you said are very empowering, like realizing that your Mom acts in unawareness and knowing you can change a lot by shifting your attitude.

I think this is a huge realization:
“I think that I am unconsciously holding on to the powerlessness out of some kind of fear.  It is somehow attached to loneliness and some strange desire for pity.  These things will not help me.  I must let go of them.” “For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me”

I recently read somewhere (perhaps at my new hangout: http://drirene.com/contents.htm?) that a key part to codependency (as well as Nism) is a feeling of entitlement, a feeling that others are responsible for straightening out my life.  Of course, this feeling is self destructive.

As a ‘recovering’ co-d, I was surprised to hear that this feeling of entitlement is part of being co-d, but your description of feeling a “strange desire for pity” and “For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me” reminded me of the entitlement aspect of being co-d.

I too feel this “strange desire for pity” and wanting “someone to reach out to me” and I think it is the entitlement, like I want pity and someone to reach out because I’m entitled to have this mess in my life cleaned up. 

On the other hand, sometimes this desire for pity and wanting “someone to reach out to me”  is a desire for validation and for a witness.

Perhaps, by looking at your these feelings, we can distinguish as to whether it’s a desire for entitlement or a desire for validation and a witness (or both, or neither).

“There is some odd balance between giving to others and needing that giving or that attention to come back.”  Is this the feeling of entitlement felt by a co-d?  I’m giving, so therefore, they should give back to me?

“That wound - that deep, original wound that came from my parents anger over being responsible for my needs is at the root.”  Yes, think you are correct and you are showing major awareness.

“As a child and an adult I have waited to receive and raged when I didn't and then waited again.   This is the pattern that has repeated itself over and over.  This is the pattern that my husband and I repeated.”    Wow, GS, so excellent that you recognize the pattern.

But, Question:  You’re giving and expecting someone to give to you in return: Is this the feeling of entitlement felt by a co-d?

“The clear answer it to quit waiting and to go out and get what I need for myself.  Something is scary about that.  It has to do with being cut off and rejected but I'm not sure what.  It has to do with being belittled, and criticized and made fun of.  It has to do with needing help and getting shame instead.  That is it.”   Wow, GS, so much self awareness!!  You have been working hard!!  Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, I’m gonna play devil’s advocate re: entitlement cuz because I recently recognized the entitlement was a missing piece for me:  Do you feel pissed off that you ‘have’ to do all this work and that you are being forced to “get what I need for myself”?  Do you feel like “Why should I have to get what I need?  Why must I go through all this scary stuff?”

Not fair of me to play shrink without a license, but, it’s an interesting idea.

I wrote the above before reading the responses.  Now that I have seen them, I also agree that the feeling of being “angry at being responsible for my needs, just as my parents once were” is also very relevant.  But, why feel angry for fulfilling your needs? 

Maybe I got Co-d entitlement on the brain, but feeling angry about fulfilling your own needs perhaps points to the question of “why must I be BURDENED with fulfilling my own needs?  Why can’t someone ELSE fulfill my needs?  Someone else should fulfill my needs.”  Is this the feeling of entitlement felt by a co-d?

Again, playing devil’s advocate not only for you, but for myself as well.

But, GS, you are GROWING SO MUCH AND YOU GROWTH IS TEACHING ME AS WELL!!!  CONGRATS!!  SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love,
dazed

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: gratitude28 on February 05, 2007, 08:58:46 PM

GS,
I have learned in recovery that this irritability is actually a good thing and a sign that you are getting ready to break through a new barrier. When you make progress, you get used to it and then you need some time for your psyche to "catch up" as it were and make the adjustment part of you... ( I hope I am making sense...). When something starts bothering you, it means you are ready to make a new step... so CONGRATS. It is great that you are working out what, exactly, it is time to change. The ideas will coalesce for you soon... hang in there!!!!
Lots of love and teh knowledge that things get better and better.
Beth

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 06, 2007, 03:20:49 AM

how do you claim the part that you are rejecting?

Maybe just sit with it.  Really hard, though.  I hate that creepy, crawly feeling I get when I'm acknowledging the "bad" parts of me.  And thinking that everyone can see that about me and is hating me for it.  But you know what?  I think people don't hate you for that.  They probably don't even see the thing about you that you're struggling with.  They may see the discomfort.  That could be the off-putting thing.  And I'm probably really talking about me here.  But this thread is speaking to me on several levels, GS.  At the right time too.

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 06, 2007, 03:25:24 AM

I have learned in recovery that this irritability is actually a good thing and a sign that you are getting ready to break through a new barrier. When you make progress, you get used to it and then you need some time for your psyche to "catch up" as it were and make the adjustment part of you...

Beth, this is so good to know.  And isn't it a little like with our kids?  At certain ages, they are getting ready for their next developmental step and start acting really, really naughty and miserable.  They must feel all mixed up inside until they incorporate the new knowledge/abilities.  We kind of expect kids to be "naughty" and acting out.  It's allowed on some level, or should be at any rate.  We adults just have to sit with it.  Or should.  Temper tantrums at work just aren't very attractive  :roll: !  And I should know!

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 06, 2007, 03:38:20 AM

Dazed, thanks for the information on co-dependent entitlement.  That nails it for me.  What I really, really want is healthy mutuality, healthy boundaries, and meeting healthy needs in a healthy way.  But I recognize myself in your words.  So, I'm not quite there yet.  I'm on the yucky part of that particular journey.  I wish I could do it without witnesses!  But actually, part of becoming human is to do so in company with other members of society.  A catch-22.  Maybe I just need a kinder, healthier audience.  A cheering section of sorts.  Like what we have here.  Or maybe I just need to stop projecting my internal judge and jury onto other people.

Pennyplant

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 06, 2007, 08:27:00 AM

Thanks Gratitude - I have come to recognize that pattern.  It is remarkable how unpleasant it is even knowing that it is a precursor to some important growth.  Thank you for your post - it is ncouraging. - your friend - Gaining Strength

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Hopalong on February 06, 2007, 08:50:16 AM

Morning, GS:
Your initial post is still so meaningful to me. Thanks for this:

Quote

I have finally come to see that she does not intend what she does and is unaware of much of it.  It has to do with feeling powerless and that can be changed be changing my attitude.    My powerlessness runs incredibly deep.  I think that I am unconsciously holding on to the powerlessness out of some kind of fear.  It is somehow attached to loneliness and some strange desire for pity.  These things will not help me.  I must let go of them. 

As I write, I have no clue how I will get out of this but I know that my desire to do so is a start and by airing this weakness is a good step.  For some strange reason I want someone to reach out to me and help but it is the story of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly - any assistance will damage the process.

I think that loneliness is not something to let go of, but to use as energy. That lonely energy can bring you into community, build friendships. I think you are just trying to connect, to experience friendship but without dependency. So I don't think loneliness is your enemy. The fear is just fear, and dependency has never made you happy. (Talking to myself again...but this is how I'm trying to reframe these exact questions.)

I'm beginning to see how much vital energy that could've been used to make order in my life has gone instead into chasing my loneliness and fear, running after them, thinking, if I don't have you then I just have...peace. I don't know what to do with peace. If I had a serene, uncluttered room, for example, or a simple filing system that I maintained in 10-15 minutes a day....all this TIME would open up. And then what would I do? I might actually want to work on my novel then. And if I did work on my novel, then it might not be perfect. Or worse, I might even finish it. And then if I finish it I'd need to get an agent. And still it might not get published. Or it might get published and get a bad review. Or it might be published and be really good, and then I'd be expected to write another. ETC.

Much easier to keep tossing my papers into piles I can worry about in a lonely way. Come here, fear! Come here loneliness! You're kind of mean and have bad breath, but I know you.

Hmmmm.

Hops

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 06, 2007, 11:55:41 AM

I saw my therapist today and was able to connect some of the most significant pieces.  I want to try to get it out on paper and cement it into my mind. 

I am working out that "victim - perfectionism" dynamic.  I told a story of when I was about seven and my family was at our river house.  We had a lizard box - somewhat like a large cricket box.  I was playing with our prisoner when he bit the end of my finger as thought he was going to swallow it.  It was painful and scared me but the greater dilemma was getting him back in the box without arousing anyone's attention because I would be severely punished if he got away and humiliated if I cried or could not remedy the situation by myself.  My mother still thinks it is funny that when I was discovered with the lizard attached to my finger that I said nothing was wrong.  She is clueless to the powerlessness I was constrained by.

What I finally get is that my father was criticized no matter what he did and developed crippling perfectionism and he conveyed that to me.    Mistakes were not allowed and if discovered were punished by humiliation  where a functioning, loving family would have provided correction and an opportunity to get it correct.  A functioning family would see a mistake as a learning opportunity and give the support and encouragement necessary to try again.

My father was bound in moral perfectionism as well.  Anything we did that was a blight on him was squelched but as an N he did not want us to surpass him and so anything that we might achieve in he pulled the resources on.  My mother on the other hand named me after herself and used me as a sort of "voodoo doll" to project her own  self-hatred onto.  She didn't do anything constructive with her time and so whatever I chose to do she would undermine me attempts to get involved in anything.  She refused to drive me to afterschool activities though my brothers afternoons were filled with sports and scouting and she refused to let me sew or garden or cook because I "would just make a mess."  Never mind that we had two full-time maids and a full time yardman.  No matter how small I made myself she would find something to criticize.  I was trapped.  The only way out was to get involved in something that her friends' children were doing.  That was the only way out. 

Each time that I have called attention to myself - either in a negative or a positive way, I have payed a price for it.  Consequently, I eventually shut down.  I have been waiting for permission to go ahead and do something, permission to make a living, permission to move forward.  but that permission will never come because my moving forward would threaten both of my parents who are victims in their own rights and who need a "poor me" status.  And the concepts touched on the the "Bad Mother Taboo" thread get to why this "victim" role is so powerful.  Because society will not acknowledge that mothers and fathers could ever, would ever refuse to help, refuse to encourage, refuse to cheer on their offspring - UNLESS they were sociopaths or ne'er do wells or outcasts. 

I was isolated and humiliated in my family.  When times were difficult the isolation and humiliation were greatest.  When I struck out on my own I was sabotaged.  Now I am trying once again to strike out on my own and start a small business.  I am tuning into my mother's subconscious passive-aggressive sabotage and I am holding back.  And that goes to part of the extraordinary loneliness. It is the double bind that I grew up in - the people I needed for survival are the people who will make sure I fail.  They have kept this in order by keeping their money to themselves.  The irony is that both of my parents are living on money that they inherited but if they gave me money to live on they would lose their power to control.  And if they didn't sabotage me they would lose their power to control. 

My late husband did the same things.  He wasn't so much N as Borderline but he had this driving need to destroy me and if I did well at something and was recognized he would actually rage and belittle me.  It is so shame inducing because we all need validation and when the people we love pull the rug out from underneath us it seems as though we must deserve it.  That fallacy is one of the tangled roots of my struggle.  If this is what the people closest to me do then what will others do? 

I took the shame and blame and wore it as a crown.  And now I want to take it off but I see things I have done and failings that seem to earn that shame.  But all of that is a moral judgment and the way out is to stop judging others, to step forward and to move on from here.  This is painful and it is frightening. 

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Dazed1 on February 06, 2007, 12:15:23 PM

(((((((((((((((((((((GS)))))))))))))))))))),

Wow, there's so much in that post, don't have time to digest it all right now.

But, sounds like you made a break through, eventhough the break through is very, very painful, frightening and hard to face, hard to accept.

Sounds like you're facing the truth and the truth is painful, hard to accept, we've avoided the pain of facing the truth by hiding in denial.  But, we can no longer take the denial because the denial is killing us.

So the truth, despite our pain and fear, is good. 

As we process the truth, we can move on and try to do the things that fulfill our needs (needs that haven't been met due to the denial) and then maybe find "happiness".

The realizatiions discovered in your therapy session sound MAJOR.  Very happy fpr you.

LOve,
dazed

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 06, 2007, 12:24:40 PM

Terrific, GS.  It seems like you have the major pieces here.  You've named the unnameable.  And nothing blew up.  You're still here and they're still here.  It makes so much sense.

Pennyplant

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Leah on February 06, 2007, 12:27:38 PM

Quote

My late husband did the same things.  He wasn't so much N as Borderline but he had this driving need to destroy me and if I did well at something and was recognized he would actually rage and belittle me.  It is so shame inducing because we all need validation and when the people we love pull the rug out from underneath us it seems as though we must deserve it.  That fallacy is one of the tangled roots of my struggle.  If this is what the people closest to me do then what will others do? 

(((Gaining Strength)))

You really have done so well today with valuable insight and precious validation.  Well done.

My heart truly goes out to you regarding the effect from having the rug pulled out from you, by those closest to you.


Think that's why we procrastinate, hold back, delay ...... from allowing ourselves to trust again, even on a very basic level

our intuition, our emotions, and interaction with others.


Procrastination is our protection, from any further trauma in our lives, which may be incurred by interaction with absolutely anyone at any level.

((Leah))

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 06, 2007, 12:40:03 PM

OK - I am getting it.  Now I know what procrastination is - it is my protection OR it WAS my protection and now it causes me harm.  I must push through procrastination as though doing so is a kind of physical therapy.  It may hurt. It may hurt alot. But unless I do it I will not gain the use of my injured limb. 

Such pain should actually give me a kind of peace when it is over.  I am going to try to work with this.  If I tie this in with the piece that Dazed just posted about cutting ties with Mom then I think I can keep my focus on the end rather than on the pain along the way.  I think I am getting this.  I am going to practise this today and then put down a plan to get through some mess created since my husband's death. = Thanks - your friend - Gaining Strength

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Leah on February 06, 2007, 12:58:32 PM

(((GS)))

I really do believe that a door has opened for you, and, now is the right time for you.

Won't be easy and yes it may hurt, but it will be worth it, as you gain peace and joy.

You can do it, and you are not alone.

((Leah))

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: gratitude28 on February 06, 2007, 09:36:32 PM

WOW, GS,
You just brought up a memory for me that is completely like your lizard box story. When I read your story, I froze and I wasn't sure why.
One of my mother's favorite stories is that I was about three and did something wrong and she couldn't find me because I was in my room "punishing myself." Now doesn't that just show you how early I was a mess????
Wow, I need to think about this and reread your story and post.
Love, Beth

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: gratitude28 on February 06, 2007, 09:42:03 PM

Quote

She refused to drive me to afterschool activities though my brothers afternoons were filled with sports and scouting and she refused to let me sew or garden or cook because I "would just make a mess."  Never mind that we had two full-time maids and a full time yardman.  No matter how small I made myself she would find something to criticize.  I was trapped.  The only way out was to get involved in something that her friends' children were doing.  That was the only way out. 

This was also the same for me. It was a damned if I do/damned if I don't sort of thing. Her house was a pigsty, but I couldn't make a mess. Driving me anywhere was such a pain that I quit every sport I ever started. My sister's activities were apparently worth the time and effort. I had a "connected" boyfriend in high school and that is how I escaped for a while... Since he made her feel somehow important, I could get away with a lot as far as he was concerned. (Sort of like your mother whoring you out...).

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Hopalong on February 07, 2007, 11:50:23 AM

Such courage, GS, as PP says, to name the unnameable.
Can't thank you enough for sharing this particular struggle here.
Your story of your father really rang bells for me...my Dad was very perfectionistic and no question a little bit OCDish.

And that all feeds into procrastination like thread into a bobbin.
I want to take these negative threads and weave something beautiful out of them.

Danged if I won't!

love,
Hops

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 16, 2007, 09:32:29 AM

Still working stuff out.  Getting close.  Had a very brief moment tis morning when I felt capable of breaking through.  I know those moments will begin to come.  While I was racing around getting my son dressed for school I had a moment of calm certainty rather than the normal tense ball of angst, snarled with inadequacy, criticism, and shame that came from the supremely critical, tense parent overseeing the event.  In a quiet moment the world shifted from, "Oh late again, I can't get it right  This is so frustrating." to "Wow.  Dressed, fed, happy, delivered and only 1 minute late.  How did I do that!" 

This is a shift that is the result of consciously shifting these dark, low energy feelings to joyous, high energy action.  My affirmation is working.  I am pleased.

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Leah on February 16, 2007, 09:36:59 AM

Well done  (((( GS ))))

Wonderful news - encouraging and exciting.

You are clearly working ever so well through stuff, have noticed this on your recent postings.

So happy for you GS.

Leah x

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 16, 2007, 10:41:07 AM

I failed at a project that I was working on with someone.  We are revising some gamebooths for a school carnival in May.  She wanted to have a luncheon for room mothers of 4K - 2nd grade.  All the plans were left to me.  I hit a snag in trying to get the room, in the expense of the food (she wanted it catered, I wanted to cook at home), getting the list of room mothers, figuring out the logistics (one room had SIX roommothers, others 3 and some just 1). Blah, blah, blah.  It was a great idea - lunch - meet, talk, plan.  Right up my alley.  I loved all of it - except the $$$$$$.  Way out of line with the concept.

I could not figure it out and I got stuck.  Stuck in figuring out how to make it work, how to meet her needs, how to get out of a situation that I could not afford.  Stuck, paralyzed.  Couldn't call.  Saw her at church on Sunday.  She didn't mention it.  I couldn't - stuck.  she called several times yesterday but my phone was in the car.  (lunch supposed to be today)

I called this morning and left a yammering message about the jumbled mess of trying to figure it all out.  I am not posting in order to get advice about what I should have done or what I can do now but because this is a perfect microcosmic example of what I am going through in my day to day life.   I have a goal, bump into some hurdles - not insurmountable - but hurdles.  These hurdles reflect back some inadequacy in me, I freeze - dear in the headlights freeze.  No way out - going down!!!

 Of course there is a way out - very obvious - "dear - don't stop - keep running - ten feet - one leap and you are out of danger!!!!!  Jump dear!!!"  Very obvious!!!!! - only problem - dear paralyzed.

I find myself actually empathizing with her and her frustration but this time I am not going to go down any of my normal paths: I am not going down a path of shame for failing here - I am using this as a tool to unlock the bigger problem; and I am not going to refuse to try again.  I am going to work through this and come out a little less paralyzed and a little more capable of extricating myself from psychologically confining  situations.

thanks for listening.  It is so extraordinarily helpful to come here and work out my struggles with kind, caring people.  Not limit to the depth of my gratitude. - Gaining Strength

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: CB123 on February 16, 2007, 10:46:18 AM

You're doing great, GS.

Step by step.  No quick fix, is there?  This isnt about doing, it's about seeing.  And you are.

If you could see me, you would see that I am rising out of my seat, clapping furiously. 

CB

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 16, 2007, 12:22:37 PM

I can't resist saying, GS, that I think your partner had an agenda and wasn't working with you very well.  As soon as you mentioned her idea of expensive catered lunch as opposed to your idea of something more affordable and casual, I knew there had to be something more afoot with your partner.  I have run into similar scenarios at school-type things.  Many, many parents use these types of events as a way to look good in front of the other parents.  They want to make a certain impression.  You wanted to be more genuine and project oriented.  She wanted something else out of this.  I think the deck was stacked against you because of her personal agenda.

That said, I'm glad you told us about how it went and how you are learning from it.  This is very good and a turning point no doubt.  Just go forward now and no need to beat yourself up about it.  Learn from it.  That's the best thing of all.  ((((((((((((((GS))))))))))))))))

Pennyplant

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Dazed1 on February 16, 2007, 01:01:24 PM

Hi GS,

I am not going down a path of shame for failing here - I am using this as a tool to unlock the bigger problem; and I am not going to refuse to try again.  I am going to work through this and come out a little less paralyzed and a little more capable of extricating myself from psychologically confining  situations.

YAYE!!!!!!!!!!

A new dawn is dawning.

Sounds like you're taking your "problems" as blessings by using them as opportunities to experiment with new ways of thinking and doing.  Lemonade from lemons.  Delicious.

In a quiet moment the world shifted from, "Oh late again, I can't get it right  This is so frustrating." to "Wow.  Dressed, fed, happy, delivered and only 1 minute late.  How did I do that!" 

So good to hear that your view is shifting.  EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Break thru!!!!!!!

love,
dazed

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 16, 2007, 03:55:24 PM

She wanted something else out of this.  I think the deck was stacked against you because of her personal agenda.

Thanks PP you are probably right but I meant to add to my list of doing things in a new way that I am not going to look at her part because if I keep my focus on changing my actions then I can keep my emotional balance.  I really did need some help out of this pickle and she didn't say anything on Sunday so there probably is real frustration on her part but none of that matters.  The lunch thing was just an idea she had and it was all on my shoulders to make it happen.  In truth, nothing is lost (and just a little money saved.)  But if I keep my focus on my part then I can figure out what I can do differently next time and I am definitely making progress.  I am so thankful to understand how this psychological paralysis took over and even more thankful to begin to experience a small but clear change in this pattern. 

I am able to say, "Nope, sorry, I'm not having any "shame" feeling right now."  Just the way I told my mother, "Nope, sorry, I'm not having any sad sympathy feelings for my father even though the story IS sad.  Those feelings are simply too dangerous for me.  Sorry."  I read about someone years ago, stopping their angry feelings before they got out of hand.  I was mesmerized by that concept  and could not imagine how to do that but I am so very thankful that I have learned.  It sounds similar to "denying" them but it is quite different.  I am learning to change the physiological response to certain emotions such as shame.  It is a "false" brain response.  I learned that technique in a book by a psychiatrist who specializes in OCD. 

I am generating positive feelings using affirmations and visualizations.  And I am getting over negative feelings by identifying them as false brain functions established years ago to protect me but causing problems now.  This is what I am doing.  It has taken me since last June to get all the pieces of this puzzle.  That's no so long in relative tems.   Thanks for this place and for each and every one of you. - GS

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 16, 2007, 04:47:58 PM

Okay, GS, I think I understand better what you are doing with this experience.  It is different from how I approach similar situations, but it is definitely working for you.  I can learn from this too.  There are so many ways to navigate through life.  I think I was very sheltered most of my life.  I think it is good that there are so many choices.  We can each find a way that fits comfortably.

You know I was tempted earlier to add more to my comments and now I'm glad I ran out of time.  It would have been me "fixing" again.  And you sure don't need fixing  :D .  You're doing just fine.  Really well, as a matter of fact.

Love, Pennyplant

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: Gaining Strength on February 17, 2007, 06:43:28 PM

CB - I think I get what you are saying.  When I start to feel that slimy feeling of depression coming over me I am chosing to change my attitude and be grateful about something and then - lo and behold - my feeling of depression has given way to a feeling of gratitude.  When my son's actions flick my "flustration" switch then I try to remember how truly grateful I am to have that problem and - lo and behold - my heart feels soft and mushy again.

So even though I can't change my feelings, I can change my attitude and that just may well lead to a softer more cushiony feeling.

PP - I am so curious about what you might have posted but even still I am muddlilng through this mess and finding definite progress.  I have lived so down in the dumps for so long.  I really needed an change in attitude but could not for the life of me see how to get it.  I really believed that I could only do that if the externals changed.  And a few times in life when something good happened I was happier and hopeful.  But now I am beginning to believe that by changing the internal view I will begin to see the external things begin to change.  And even if it doesn't I will feel better, and I do.

Title: Re: Working stuff out - boring thread
Post by: pennyplant on February 17, 2007, 11:07:35 PM

Yes, GS, I have a similar challenge in letting go of the external causes of my emotions and wanting instead to build my own and strengthen them without constantly being let down or upset by the events and people in my life.  I now do think that happiness is possible regardless of what is happening in one's life.  I've known people who have that ability.  It is hard though.  I'm not sure what I have to work with inside of me. 

My comments that I ended up not making would have been more analysis of the other people involved in your particular situation with the parents at school.  In trying to let go of the external "causes" of my emotions I tend to try to really get below the surface of other people's motives, etc. and realize how often they have little or nothing to do with me.  That is how I teach myself that it is not personal and that is how I am then able to focus on what is really happening inside of me.  It is how I try for some kind of detachment.  For me, this is something of a reality check and it does help me with what I'm doing.  But that is my method.  I don't wish to impose that on you.  In fact, I didn't mean to make you curious by being mysterious!  Most of my posts use this way of analyzing things that happen or happened to me and that works for me.  So, I wasn't going to say anything terribly unusual, just more detailed or deeper than my first comments.

I'm beginning to realize that I need to listen more.  I am not going to stop analyzing.  I am going to add listening to the mix.  What makes me think I know so much about what is going on with other people's lives?  I'm just guessing sometimes.  Filling in.

Well, it's getting late.  We have birthdays at our house tomorrow.  I better get some sleep so I can wake up and get ready.

Good night all.

Pennyplant