Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: phoenix on March 10, 2004, 02:43:22 AM
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So, please tell me, what are you all thinking about this? All you people with "faces" to show, willing to put yourself in the line of fire while a sniper shoots from the bushes, what will eventually happen here? What are your thoughts on this? With much sadness I contemplate leaving for good, this place I found comraderie, support, and others who could help untangle the web of my past, that I could run free as I feel God originally intended. If there is anything my past has taught me, there is little learning when all your energy goes into dodging bullets. In the end that is all you aquire- skills for dodging bullets.
but they're not bullets, are they, just long rambling posts from someone who fancies themselves as a psychology or semantics expert who is used to being verbiose to get attention.
If there is anything my past has taught me, there is little learning when all your energy goes into dodging bullets. In the end that is all you aquire- skills for dodging bullets
that's a great quote though!
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that was me, write, above.
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Hello again Phoenix! Good to see you. I haven’t felt tormented by anyone (I tormented myself a while back, but that was me!). I haven’t let any of it get to me: not the anonymous postings (it’s fascinating to empathise too: why crazy Guests do the weird stuff that they do). It would be different if you or another ‘name’ started attacking me. I’d cry in the corner.
Dodging bullets: have you seen any of The Matrix films? You just put up your palm and the bullets stop at your command! Nobody here, certainly not anyone anonymous, is going to turn up on my doorstep and really punch me on the nose.
Seriously, it’s a small world but it’s still a big one if you want it to be. So few people browse here that I feel safe revealing as much about myself as I do (it’s all been true). And after all, most people are more interested in themselves (Ns or not) than me, so there’s little to be really worried about. And if people say things you don’t want to hear, don’t listen. Come and talk to me instead! We’re allowed to start a thread with “Hey {named poster}, what do you think of this?”. It might be a bit ‘cliquey’ but then again, anyone else can join in.
Think of it more as deflecting bullets, rather than dodging them.
Are you feeling stronger now? Are you physically better? I’d like it if you could tell me a joke Phoenix! (And I’d tell you my second-favourite. It’s terrible and corny.) :D Sometimes we need a little light-heartedness… best, P
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As I said in the other post, ignore the trolls, N's, or whatever you choose to call them. Stop feeding them, they will eventually go away. Drives them crazy to be ignored. It might be hard to do, but it works, eventually.
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Hi Phoenix, I am in Rosz' camp as well, just am not quite as brave, though, as I said, it is getting better (with the help of my wonderful Hubby and the time I spent with a therpist). I was always afraid if I did stand up for myself, I would not be loved any longer or be shut down or punished in some way. The times I have voiced my disapproval or disagreement with others than my husband (he's safe, you see) have worked out well and it makes me stronger for the next time. But I waft in and out of that bravery and when I manage to do it and it turns out well, I keep on asking my husband about it afterward (did I really do ok, etc.).
Just had an instance with my sister yesterday where she lied to me and I stood up to her about it and when she tried to defend herself by projecting her guilt back onto me, I very calmly told her I didn't buy it and that what she did was wrong, etc. I love my sister very much, we have never had a fight in our entire lives together, so this was very painful for me, and I am just now starting to calm down. But I am happy with how I handled it. I am growing by bits and starts.
I have been standing up for my sister and my brother my entire life, it is standing up for myself that I have trouble with. I always want to retreat back into my safe mode for fear of what? Everything that happened to me in my childhood comes into play as I'm making that split second decision on what to do.
I do, however, practice complete "ignore" and "no contact" with my two N ex-husbands since my children are now grown men. Am going to have to practice that with my N son as well, once he decides to contact me again when he's hit bottom of whatever mess he is apt to be in by now.
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Jacmac, I know about N boss'. I had one for 7 years back when I did not know how to defend myself or stand up for myself at all (no way, no how). She was so awful that I ended up on tranquilzers just to deal with her. I needed my job. I had two young children to support and NO child support coming from either of their N fathers. This job gave me a halfway decent salary and very good benefits. I had preexisting medical conditions that they accepted immediately, as well. I could not quit, though I sorely wished I could have done so, as you did.
The company lost its contract with the goverment after I was there for 7 years and we shut down. My boss was one of the first to go, I was one of the very last 3, because I was necessary to keep the place running, and N was not. That made me feel good, though the years dealing with her were very damaging to me.
The job I have now I have had for 13 years and I have learned to stand up for myself with my boss' (they are not quite as N) and that has turned out well, mostly because I am indespendable to keeping the place running (I can pat myself on the back about that because it is true, not being N when I say it). I also help my husband run our part time business, which helps my self-esteem as well.
But I am still a very big chicken, trying to shed my feathers and turn into something else (a swan, perhaps?)
Lizbeth
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Is there anyway to disguise some of the particulars where it won't change the important aspects of the situation, so the person won't recognize themselves if they do come across your post?
So few people browse here that I feel safe revealing as much about myself as I do (it’s all been true).
There is an issue in my personal life I want to ask about, but I fear being found out by someone very close to me! It is so unlikely that would happen, but I can't yet seem to put it down to 'paper'. It would be very damaging for this person to come across. Maybe in time. The relationship may be disintigrating of it's own accord, anyway. I'll hold onto it a little longer.
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That does leave you in a pickle. Sorry.
Lizbeth, It would be understood immediatley. There is really no way around it.
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Now that had me chuckling. However, brings to mind when I threw out my second N husband and he went out and bought a book (no joke) that was entitled "How to Win Back the One you Love." Talk about clueless N.
Now, on a playful note, book titles:
"CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS"
author N known
“DIPLOMACY”
author un N
:wink:
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Thank you 'write', for identifying yourself. It is appreciated.
I'll try to where I can, I can see some people are getting upset by anNymous strange poster.
Oops, meant to log in for this and forgot.
There is an issue in my personal life I want to ask about, but I fear being found out by someone very close to me! It is so unlikely that would happen, but I can't yet seem to put it down to 'paper'.
I really really think with personality disordered people in our lives we need to protect ourselves first.
I am a very honest open person but so many times I have been upfront only to have it manipulated against me, nor do I think I get the kind of privacy and respect I would show to others.
I've seen h looking through my temporary internet files and emails, and he didn't seem even a bit flustered when challenged.
He doesn't seem to understand that other people need their space- though his is huge.
So there might be a couple of things I post about as guest still, but I guess some of you will know my style of posting by now.
It's hard separating the paranoia from the necessary steps for self-preservation!
But I'm learning.
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Phoenix, I echo your uneasiness with the lurking presence. I have considered contacting Dr. Grossman to intervene, but I know he is watching and if he felt it was necessary would do so somehow. Perhaps as a therapist he is also watching to see how we all handle this disturbance in our midst. I do admit not wanting to come here as often for that reason however, and it is definitely affecting my comfort level - I don't want to spend the time skipping through the Guest postings trying to figure out if its our N or another one that posts as guest.
Additionally, I find the responses I read (inadvertantly) from the N individual to cause me stress, even though I can intellectualize and say "ignore it and it will go away". If one really wants to follow the thread, you have no choice but to run across these N postings even though we are making a conscious effort to ignore. Consequently, I have reduced my number of visits during the week. I no longer feel entirely safe here. I trust everyone else but my defenses are strong and cause me to avoid people that cause me stress. I have worked hard to keep the dysfunction out of my life - I came here for peace... and I am no longer getting it. This is an option, not a family member - so it forces me to choose not to spend as much time here. I miss getting involved with you all but it is becoming a self preservation issue now. Perhaps if Richard knew that it is deterring us from visiting he would decide differently however - which is why I decided to post in your thread here with this information..
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I guess the bird metaphor is strong with you too Phoenix.
I stood listening to a yellow bird sing its heart out yesterday, and thought of the Emily Dickinson poem:
Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all,
And sweetest in the gale is heard;
And sore must be the storm
That could abash the little bird
That kept so many warm.
I've heard it in the chillest land,
And on the strangest sea;
Yet, never, in extremity,
It asked a crumb of me.
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This is a fascinating thread. The two issues that I really relate to are the one about the lurking Guest who is an N, and the one about N bosses.
Re: the lurking Guest: One possibility might be to simply ignore ALL Guest postings, and post that fact from time to time. That is one's personal option. Just a thought.
Another thought is to avoid any postings from the unwanted "Guest" and when it becomes obvious it/she/he is becoming a troll in a particular posting, simply stop reading that post and move on. That is my approach to all arguments, flames, etc, on all the boards I am on. That way, I see my forum friends at their best. I am truly unaware of who is prickly and argumentative -- even when people on the boards say this or that person has a temper, or is argumentative, etc etc, I honestly have had NO experience or knowledge of it b/c I skip whole threads of contention. I don't need this sort of disfunction in my life. It is upsetting, and I try to keep harmony in my life as much as I can. The world situation, and various forms of "man's inhumanity to man" out thar, are way too much for me to accept or see/hear, and I sure don't need to use my computer to swarm myself with more of it.
As for the experiences people have posted about N or bully bosses, I have surely had more than my share. I'd say that the people in our immediate families, birth-families, and "work families", as well as neighbors, are the most difficult people to cope with. That's b/c we can't escape from them.
Now, in my life, I have harmony with most of the people in my 172 unit apartment building. Nobody bugs me! And Jim and I live on the same floor, but about 75 yards away from each other down the hallway. It is total bliss in a living situation.
I am on SSD (Social Security Disability) because of my inability to deal with the Great American Workplace with it's political hassles. I guess it's easier to pay me off and get me out of there, than it is to provide the accommodations that would make it possible for me to actually work and earn money. I know what these accommodations are! But the type of work is not there. My problems are mood swings, intermittent depression, need to be alone at times (to shut the door and be isolated and in the dark), to be able to go home if I get upset, and make up the time later; and to have project based rather than time-based work. Also, to be an independent contractor, rather than an employee. There are major legal differences between being an employee and being an independent contractor (i.e. owning one's own small business). Many people who have things like mood swings, fatigue, depression, or seizure disorders need project based work. But there is no effort to provide this, so we are put out to pasture with SSD. The public may complain that we are goofing off, but then, if we are put to work, we are given terrible emotional abuse while there! We may be sabataged (sp?) by other workers, too, so that we are unable to get our work out. This has happened to me. Personnel depts. are unwilling to find solutions, EXCEPT for those organizations which have strictly enforced Harassment-Free Workplace Politicies which require EVERYONE to attend classes on a REGULAR BASIS.
Flo
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I think that there's a big difference between trolls on boards generally and what you get here. Trolls are mischief-makers who may or may not be N-driven. Mostly they're just being 'child-ish' or 'pulling your strings' on purpose and having a great laugh or they might be troubled individuals, but not narcissistic.
On this Board, this kind of behaviour is more likely to be narcissistic in nature because of the topics being discussed and the fact that our peripatetic 'population' (and search engines) leaves trails that bring them here.
Ns are our problem so we need to deal with it in whatever way we can. It's just a microcosm of how we deal with it elsewhere. So if you avoid it here, you'll be avoiding it in your life, too. If that's effective for you, that's fine. But sometimes you have to become N-ish to stop an N. The difference is that we can choose behaviour that's appropriate to the circumstances and they can't. Once they've finished shouting and screaming, they'll be off finding other ways of manipulating their way in, like being great big pussycats and sidling up to you to become 'friends'. :roll:
But these forums are constantly mutating and the Ns find better fish to fry in time, too. And in the meantime it's good practice for us to find ways of dealing with them and reflect on how we deal with them in a relatively safe environment. In my book, simply leaving them to create havoc and harm 'at will' and on their terms just isn't 'on'.
I don't mind other people having a different opinion on this but that's where I've discovered I stand on it - and it probably reflects the stage I've got to in dealing with the Ns in my personal life. I think a bridge must have been burnt somewhere along the trail. I can't go back to not standing firm in my 'space' - I think it's just not possible.
R
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Hello everyone here, I have views too which have been brewing for a while (gosh that sounds soooo assertive for me!).
CC thanks for your post, it’s good to hear more from you! I hope you’re okay and all. I’m sad you feel like you do about the lurking and I know others have felt that the board might be headed the wrong way, maybe even down the toilet. But some of us really care about the board’s continuing existence: I do. And the recent conflicts have been big, big learning experiences. Yep, they hurt! But it does. I didn’t come here for peace like you (did you really?), I came for answers! I do have concerns about how recent events may have put off new visitors, people who could do with speaking here, who have not posted, or have left, because of the ‘bad vibes’. Maybe we can do something about that…below…
I know Dr G reads and oversees (thank you Dr G). And sometimes I’ve wondered if he hasn’t posted himself as Guest? Why not? It’s a bit like thinking God is watching over us, only this one is a real person. And don’t we humans always like to have some higher authority to point to? It’s another one of our failings! So I tend to ignore Dr G (like I ignore God) and think we’ve just got to sort it out ourselves. We have to be responsible, individually and collectively. Which means we have to work together, as a group. As I said elsewhere, we can all take different roles, we can swap roles, and we keep the board alive – together. It’s a harmonious, consensual group management style we need and with the same goal – to maintain the board (not to dominate it, not to use it as ‘supply’).
On this I’ve had these growing thoughts. Now I don’t know other boards and I don’t know what they do so my thoughts are based purely on here:
Rosencrantz, was it you who spoke about the board with the venting zone? That sounded good, but would it create more problems here – fragile egos of various colours abounding? Not sure, but would love to see a group vote on the topic! (We can have polls on threads – that facility exists – if we wanted to test the water, even if we couldn’t make it happen. Would that be interesting?)
How about a warm welcome page? Just pointing out that this board tends to have long-term members as well as short-term stayers? That maybe it’s a bit more trustworthy than other boards? That we have ‘upsets’ but don’t let anyone put you off posting? This is all contentious stuff – but it’s the web, it can be changed at any time. Being a complete newbie, I would’ve liked a welcome page telling me how it all works e.g. register to get PM, protect your identity, how to see members’ stories, how to edit, etiquette on paragraph format (thank you Anastasia)! – we could expand the list no doubt. And maybe it could explain, for those who get straight here and don’t see Dr G’s pages: look at DR G’s site, he’s behind this and he reads it, we’re not moderated as such but please be considerate etc etc. This is the basic stuff that tends to get repeated.
I’ve also wondered sometimes if we’re a training ground for therapists. Maybe they’re Guests, maybe they’re members. Maybe wannabe therapists come here and decide to take up landscape gardening? :lol:
Rosencrantz again, I want to pull some of your words:
Ns are our problem so we need to deal with it in whatever way we can. It's just a microcosm of how we deal with it elsewhere. So if you avoid it here, you'll be avoiding it in your life, too. If that's effective for you, that's fine. But sometimes you have to become N-ish to stop an N.
Assertive R, that’s what you are. The day you start saying: I don’t like that and I want it my way; or this is my board and you can’t play with it – I’ll tell you ok? Will you tell me? :wink:
And in the meantime it's good practice for us to find ways of dealing with them and reflect on how we deal with them in a relatively safe environment. In my book, simply leaving them to create havoc and harm 'at will' and on their terms just isn't 'on'.
Exactly. And
I can't go back to not standing firm in my 'space' - I think it's just not possible.
Good good!
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Now here's a rum show. Slightly off track but bang on, too.
This is how recent events have affected me! Did I once say 'the body don't lie'???!!!
Soon after what I regard as 'the final stand-off' in 'standing strong' here on this board, one of my front teeth suddenly lost a bit of veneer and started to split right up the middle. Yikes!
I cannot tell you how distressed I felt. Suddenly, I'm terrified of the whole concept of dentists, putting my trust in some stranger (don't have a dentist in my new area), having an unknown treatment yada yada.
Sobs, terrified little girl sobs. Sob, sob, sob, sob, sob. Exhausted.
Happen to open up the Co-dependency book I looked out to recommend to Wildflower. Read : Frozen feelings from childhood : You experience the release of your own feelings from childhood that were not safe to feel as a child. To survive the abuse, you shut down or freeze your feelings. As you begin to come out of your defence mechanism, you feel these feelings as an adult. You feel extremely vulnerable and childlike when you experience them.
More yada yada - may be true but doesn't help me get my tooth fixed.
With healer this morning, recounting experiences - suddenly recent experiences all flow together. Defences against Ns she's given me through 'intention' and 'energy healing' had grown much larger to handle the threat on this board. I mention idea of being strung like a wire and the tension causing something to break ie my tooth.
But...
This tooth has always been ready to crack (I say), always been a bit fragile.
:shock: suddenly I start listening with a 'third ear'!!!
It got hit a lot when I was a child. :!: It stuck out more than the others. I think the nerve is dead but they've never done anything to it cos the tooth is surprisingly healthy underneath. :!: :!: But because the nerve is dead, it's a bit discoloured on the surface. I once tried to get someone to whiten it (cover up) but they said it couldn't be done (they were wrong, but never mind).
Is anybody 'with me' on this? All this symbolic language! Apparently our teeth represent our sense of identity. Fascinating. I sure wish that it could have been something simpler than my front tooth, tho.
So now I'm going to have a whole new 'image' with a white tooth, the right size, in the right place that fits in with the rest of my teeth instead of a sticky-out yellowy one!!! (And we all know what the colour yellow stands for) Uh! My body won't let me have a yellow one any more!!! :wink:
It's like it's split open to allow something stronger and more beautiful to emerge
But I've still got to get it fixed!!!!! And I'm in deep resistance mode!!!
Just sharing,
R
"The more conscious we become of living symbolically, the more conscious we become of our own desires, goals, and feelings."
http://www.saskworld.com/bodymindspirit/edition9/02_article_spielman.htm
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R, WOW, and let me say again, WOWWWWWW!!!
For the last few days I've been feeling like someone has hit me in the side of jaw with their fist. At first it started with just the back teeth being a bit sensitive you know, like I couldn't exactly chew back there, and no ice.
But then it seemed to migrate to the whole left side of my mouth, and then it was the whole mouth in general. I spent hours looking in the mirror for the cavity that was causing this thumping sensation, no extremely painful, but just so uncomfortable, I took a couple of Midol to help me sleep.
It was like I could FEEL my teeth. And the only thing that helped really was clenching them really tight together, you know like when you're angry.
But get this, after I apologized to Bunny, after I felt the love coming from this board, NO MORE PAIN.
I just made that connection today, after your post. WOWWW!! I think I'll go have a nice glass of Iced Tea :lol:
Thanks for sharing, R
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"Start by keeping some promise you've made to yourself, like taking up that musical instrument you always meant to, or honoring your resolution to stop repeating mean gossip. Be true to yourself and your teeth will be strong."
Thanks again, R. What an eye opener.
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I don't know if you all were around almost a year ago, but several of us posted that we grinded our teeth at night or clenched during the day, sometimes consciously, sometimes not.
This started for me about three years ago, and comes and goes. It releases when I have stayed away from Ns, particularly Nmom, for a period of time - when I have worked hard on childhood issues in therapy, or when I'm drinking :) (relaxed).
we had the epiphany here before that this tooth-related/jaw clenching stuff was very symbolic of VOICELESSNESS, as if our teeth in the clenched position are preventing us from expressing our voice. It is suppressed childhood rage that we are attempting to hold back - for fear if we release it - the spewing anger will come forth with a vengeance.
I have often told my therapist that I dont' think I will completely be able to stop the clenching until the day my Nmother parts this world - I will feel free to release the rage, guilt free and my jaws will feel a lifetime of relief.
R, I think your cracked tooth is very symbolic indeed. Get it fixed, make it beautiful and perfect and whole, like you are.
God Bless,
CC
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I don't think I have ever have the teeth grinding thing going on, but I have sure had the clinched jaw and tight shoulders/back muscles. I am quite certain that is the cause of my terrible headaches (since I was 10 yr old) -- tension -- stressed out muscles from constant vigilance for abuse -- always trying to be ready, on guard. phooey ... a massage and a nice Bailey's Irish Crème will do wonders :wink:
P.S. I don't have it anymore, but whenever the NQueenmother would begin one of her tirades my mouth would go dry. I can remember being so little my feet would not even touch the floor off the chair and trying to swallow, but I couldn't because of my dry mouth.
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I used to have dreams quite often in which I would be looking down on myself asleep and as I turned my head from side-to-side my hair would fall out and be laying there on my pillows -- I would wake up and scream and all my teeth would fall out. Whenever those dreams happened on the same night as the flying and the man in the black coat chasing me, needless to say, I was exhausted the next morning.
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I don't know if you all were around almost a year ago, but several of us posted that we grinded our teeth at night or clenched during the day, sometimes consciously, sometimes not.
I tried to take Prozac last year and bruxism meant I had to stop. It got much worse taking the ad and stopped as soon as I stopped taking them. It did me a favour though- I didn't really need ads or other coping mechanism, I needed to make a decision about the future and my marriage.
I too have a cracked front tooth where I bit it real hard in frustration whilst caring for my younger brother who was being very bad, I couldn't cope with him. My parents seemed to think he was our responsibility and would leave him with us from a very young age eg. me the eldest age 7, he a baby!
I'm sure British people will have worse dreams re. teeth dreams- the dentistry is so awful there its bound to affect the subconscious!
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Let's not super-spiritualise everything here.
There are many reasons why people grind their teeth in their sleep. I've got kids and learnt from a doctor years ago, when they were grinding away in their sleep that it can be a sign of a parasitic infection. In other words. WORMS! If you're grinding your teeth in your sleep you may have worms. Don' take offence and get all agro, it's true. A good dose of 'Combantrin' can save your teeth.
Or as the ad says, "Hit the herd with RALGRO."
Guest
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That's an interesting one, Write. My husband was left to look after the 'baby', too, when he was that age. His brother was only two years younger but had a number of physical and mental disabilities which made him less capable than his age might suggest. His brother died at the age of 7. Can you imagine the patience and kindness my H developed, the sense of responsibility, the submission to the needs of others, the resentment, etc...
And neither of his front teeth are his own.
R
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Can you imagine the patience and kindness my H developed, the sense of responsibility, the submission to the needs of others, the resentment, etc...
oh yes. It's a double-edged sword. You become very capable of taking care of people and situations. But not very good at taking care of yourself.
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oops that wa sme, write