Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Flo on March 14, 2004, 02:44:42 AM
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:cry: My tears are flowing, friends, because I just had another run-in with my sister.
The final conclusion of THIS one is: We agreed that our definitions of the word "love" are different.
To me, "love" means action, not just a feeling.
To her, my definition is a laying guilt trip on her. To her, love is a feeling, and that is what love is.
Also, she says, "I have spent MY WHOLE LIFE taking care of you!! And now, I have to spend some time taking care of myself!"
I said, "That is completely untrue!! You know that I completely agree that you were so supportive when we were kids! You were the only support I had [from Daddy's abuse], and you know I know that, and I am extremely grateful for that, and always have been. But when we both married our second husbands, we supported EACH OTHER!"
She said, "Okay, then, I spend MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD SUPPORTING YOU!!!"
I said, "That's a lot different. Not only that, it was the parents' fault, and not mine."
Geez, so there's all this festering resentment in her against me.
I had tried to get her to come with me to see my therapist, since she did something so hurtful to me AND Jim two weekends ago, which I think I have gone into elsewhere. But yesterday was the first day we've spoken on the phone since then, although we left each other cooling off messages a couple of times. I said I wanted her to come with me to my therapist b/c the issue was HUGE and she could bring her therp, too, or have her therp on the speaker phone, OR we could all 4 be on the phone in nobody's office. But she rejects ALL OF THIS, and plays down any need for what she calls a "third party."
So now, I YET AGAIN, want to give up my entire family of origin. There are only 3 left: my sister, my mother, and my brother. My mother has never loved me; my sister used to love me, but now has become hardened over the past decade or so; my brother used to love me, but in his adulthood he forgets about our childhood closeness; and my Daddy, although he was brutal to me, really loved me -- through his ACTIONS as well as his feelings. He helped me with a lot of stuff, like we painted my house together, laid a carpet, installed a brick hearth and a wood stove, scraped off the rust off my car and painted it with rustoleum -- all sorts of cool projects like that. And I gave him flowers and planted them in his garden for him, and stuff.
Now that he is gone, there is no love at all in my family. It's all Normal Rockwell show-stuff. Image. Fake.
I told my sister that I could not hold it against her that her definition of love is different from mine, b/c THE ENTIRE FAMILY is like that! And that I was just born into the wrong family.
The problem is that Daddy left me 1/3 of his money, but Mother has control of it.
I wonder if I divorced all 3 of them, if I would somehow still be able to receive my share of Daddy's inheritance, which is fairly large?
Does anyone know?
I am going to see a lawyer asap. :evil:
Flo
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Hi, Flo
I feel so bad that you are having to deal with all of this - is sounds so upsetting and if I were in your shoes, I'd feel as though someone had chopped me off at the knees after what your sister said to you.
Flo, I'm not sure if I have a solution for you or not but it seems to me that your sister is going to feel what she wants to feel about your childhoods. It's her choice if she wants to blame you for what your parents did. You can't do anything about that, nor can you re-create history for her. I fear that trying to vindicate yourself in this regard is nothing short of a trap for you - N's seem to do a great job of teaching us that we have to keep trying to prove ourselves, even after they're no longer with us. I'm sure it's immensely hard to do but I'd venture to say that you should work on not internalizing what she said to you. She's also a victim here and seems to be looking for a place dump her hurt. The question is, are you going to be the dumping ground?
Something that struck me about your post, Flo is this:
"and my Daddy, although he was brutal to me, really loved me -- through his ACTIONS as well as his feelings. He helped me with a lot of stuff, like we painted my house together, laid a carpet, installed a brick hearth and a wood stove, scraped off the rust off my car and painted it with rustoleum -- all sorts of cool projects like that. And I gave him flowers and planted them in his garden for him, and stuff."
The way I read that, I see you processing brutality and aid in doing chores/projects as love. Let me get this straight, in other words, if I terrorize my dog everyday but still remember to feed him and take him for a walk, I'm showing love to him? I don't think so, Flo. Love, like brutality IS an action word but love and brutality are not synonymous. In my book, love is an emotional action word that creates a sense of security and wellbeing for both parties.
As for the inheritance, only you and your lawyer can decide what's best for you. Keep in mind that you didn't arrange for that money to be given to you. Your dad made that decision, so don't let anyone use the inheritance factor as a weapon against you.
I wish you luck with this, Flo, truly.
God bless,
Rojo
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Hi Flo,
Do you think your sister might be feeling jealous and insecure because of your new relationship? The fact that you're happy and are embracing life with your new guy. The fact that his family loves you and you are now in a whole new world, that doesn't involve her as much.
It happens. When I went from renting to buying my first home, a huge, in-your-face 3 story joint on a hill, my relationship with one of my best friends soured, coincidentally. This took the gloss of my happiness. I was so caught up in decorating and so excited I unintentionally alienated her and she reacted with lots of nastiness. But at the time I couldn't understand what was happening. In her mind I was supposed to be the poor one in the relationship. When my circumstances changed for the better she couldn't handle it. It was a very sad.
Are you supposed to be the dependant one? You must need her to help you get through. Maybe she's feeling displaced and in upsetting you, creating a need for herself in your mind and life again.
I'm just taking a pot-shot here Flo. But it sort of look slike that too me. Just when you've found a nice relationship and you're happy, she's upseting the apple-cart. Maybe she's jealous of Jim? Who knows.
Can you use your 'indifference' formula here. That is a brilliant input you shared. Can you step back and look at history with your sister and see when you have been closest. Is she happier with you when you're in need. What's she like with you when you're not in need? Does this seem to threaten her? Anyway Flo, I may be way off base and I'm in no way criticising your sister. It's just human nature I'm talking about. Take care
Guest
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Dearest Rojo and Guest,
Hi, Rojo, as I have not communicated with you nor met you before. And Guest -- are you the same Guest who I've corresponded with before (if you want to say -- okay not to answer this). And any rate, Guest, thank you for your response.
Both of your responses are so well thought out. I have been looking for responses all day.
Guest, I honestly don't know. This HAS happened to me with my 2nd husband, that is for sure. Exactly as you say -- namely, when I folowed his advice and grew very strong, he lost interest.
And Rojo, one point I was making about love regarding my dad was that love was action on his part, and that love with the other three members of my family is not action -- at least not anymore. When Daddy was alive, we used to do things together -- picnics in the park and go for a short hike; play board games; do silly and fun things; sing together; play Charades; once in a while have a treasure hunt.
Now, if I suggest something like this, NONE of the other three are interested. They say "that was for kids; we haven't done that since bacme adults." Which is FALSE. The truth is, we haven't done it since Daddy died.
Rojo, I cannot 100% condemn my dad. I give him credit where credit is due. I know my dad loved me, and that he had some areas where he lost control. As a person myself who lives with bipolar disorder and now takes medication for it, I have had the theory for years that my [former] rages were like a seizure. I could feel one coming on for a few moments. A rage could be set off - triggered. And I knew when it was about to blow. I tried EVERY SKILL I KNEW I HAD, had been trained to do, but I absolutely COULD NOT STOP the rage. Not until I started taking the medication called Tegretol which, by the way, is a medication given to people with seizure disorders.
For years, I spoke of hypomania like mine being like a form of a seizure, but was scoffed at by those with "real" seizure disorders, as well as by mental health professionals. But not by some of the other people I knew with bipolar disorder.
Now, I notice, this possibility is being discussed seriously, and bipolar disorder has begun to be thought of -- at least hypothetically -- as a neurological disorder. Since my dx at age 54, the family thinks it likely that Daddy may have had bipolar, or at least something similar. Like I said, I think he had several forms of mental illness. Narcissism was only a small part of his problems, and his narcissm was not full blown NPD.
That said, I know my dad loved me. And for him, love was an action. My feelings toward my dad were extremely strong love-hate. My dad was a very confusesd and confusing person.
The comparison between him and my sister and mother was that as the two women have grown more mature, their interest in life in general has waned. They have faded away from their earlier playfulness, faded from their own passions and interests.
Also, Rojo, I am not internalizing or taking personally my sister's accusations. It is only that I am so BLOWN AWAY by her complette change of personality and attitude. THIS is what has me feeling so hurt. We used to be close; she used to be supportive and a friend to me. Now, she has said essentially that she is not. She will never admit that she is not my friend. But to me, "To have a friend, one needs to be a friend." And to be a friend means you need to be there for the other person; spend time with them; do things together; have fun together; not un-invite them to something you have invited them too! Especially when it is a family affair; and encourage them (if you are a family member like a sister) to have a relationship with their grand-neice, which my sister never does. My grand-neice is like my sister's property! I have only seen her once or twice, for a very few minutes, and she is two years old now. My sister says, "That's because you never come over!" well, I have to take two buses, and she has a car. She lives 15 miles away. I could easily meet her at the end of one bus line, right at the end of the fwy for her. IOW, half way! A 20 ride for me, 20 for her and Em, the neice.
Also, we used to trade massages when we shared a bedroom when we were growing up. About 4 years ago, I was closer to suicide than I have ever been. I called her and asked her to come over. She said she could not because her best friend was driving down from upstate! So I said, Okay.
But a few minutes later, she called me back, and said her best friend told her she HAD to come see me! So her best friend went home, and Sis drove the 25 minutes to my aprartment and visited. I said what I really needed was to lie in her lap, and for her to just pet my hair. She said OK.
When I put my head in her lap, I felt as though I had put my head on top of a man-hole cover -- cast iron!
A few days later, she told me she had discussed the experience with our mother, and Mother told her "If the experience was that unpleasant for you, you should never do it again!"
Well, I know my sister would easily be able to give our mother a head massage; or her son's girlfriend. Why not me?
These are the things I do not understand. And I do not understand why she will not take the time to share our therapists' times to try to get our relationship back! SHE says that there is no serious problem between us. And SHE has even considered becoming a professional therapist, and went to grad school for a year in that field, before deciding to do something else! She studied women's crisis counseling, too,and did that as a volunteer for a whole summer! She also has had years and years of personal therapy herself!
Now, wouldn't you think she would know that in any relationship, if ONE of the two parties thinks there is a major communication problem, there IS a major communication problem?
Flo
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Interesting how the same situation can be seen from so many different points of view
To me, "love" means action, not just a feeling. To her, my definition is a laying guilt trip on her. To her, love is a feeling, and that is what love is. Also, she says, "I have spent MY WHOLE LIFE taking care of you!! And now, I have to spend some time taking care of myself!"
From my perspective, the 'feeling' of love someone has for you is worth appreciating and nurturing - and reciprocating.
But you say you will only accept THAT she loves you IF she does some action that YOU want that is not a priority for HER.
We can always ask for what we want, but it's not God given that we should get it. Otherwise we end up in the realm of 'emotional blackmail'. Emotional blackmail only works if the person you are blackmailing feels guilty enough to give in and put our interests before theirs...???
Rojo expresses her insight into your predicament with a great deal of compassion. It's very difficult to get to grips with the contradictions of an inconsistent abuser. Reminds me of how the kidnapped end up with tremendous loyalty towards their captors, to the extent they choose not to escape when a chance arises.
But perhaps you felt (still feel?) that kind actions and nice things were/are your due as recompense/in exchange for the abuse??? 'Love' is very confusing when it's mixed up with abuse. We so absolutely want to believe that we are loved and loveable in spite of all the odds - which we are, but not necessarily by those who are incapable of it.
There is another long thread elsewhere on this board, posted not so long ago, which looked at inheritance difficulties which you might find useful.
R
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HI Flo;
relationships change over time and so do people. You may want a relationship with your sister that encompasses certain parameters as you are defining them but it is her right to deny you that if she chooses. You may have to accept her boundaries although it is painful and it is not what you want. If only life could be simpler. Surf
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bye
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--I said, "That is completely untrue!! She said, "Okay, then, I spend MY ENTIRE CHILDHOOD SUPPORTING YOU!!!"
--But when we both married ....
--I said, "That's a lot different. Not only that, it was the parents' fault, and not mine."
Hi Flo:
I'm very sorry for your pain. I don't know, but _maybe_ your sister was needing validation withouth any "buts"...
What happened when you were children was not your fault of course. You are 100% right, and both you & your sister suffered a lot of emotional pain it seems. :(
Sometimes people just need _their_ truth (which will be dif. from our own) heard and acknowledged, with just listening and acceptance, and no other view directed back at them.
Doing that (letting her get it all out without any counter from you) might help with some of the resentment she feels toward you. But I know that might be a difficult thing for you to do. After all, you are hurt in all of this as well.
It is a shame that she hasn't agreed the therapy you suggested.
I really hope it does not come down to not speaking anymore. Maybe you could both just say that you are taking a break for awhile if worse comes to worst. Words/language is powerful and it will make a huge difference if you end it saying you are cutting each other off completely, versus taking an extended break from one another to sort things out.
One closes the door completely and the other leaves it open. I truly hope you both can leave the door open, and one day work through this.
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:cry: My tears are flowing, friends, because I just had another run-in with my sister.
The final conclusion of THIS one is: We agreed that our definitions of the word "love" are different.
To me, "love" means action, not just a feeling.
To her, my definition is a laying guilt trip on her. To her, love is a feeling, and that is what love is.
Flo
Yes Flo, I'm that guest, the loo paper guest, and I thought your idea about fortune cookie comments was equally hilarious, "The task you are working on now will bring you great relief and much joy."
I cma back to your post because a couple of things you said have stayed in mind. Flo, I think it's fantastic the way you were able to get a definition of love out of your sister, and come to an agreement with her as to how you see it differently. To you love is both feeling and action. Here - here! I whole heartedly agree, otherwise what's the use of the love. I'm a great believer in love in action. The other type doesn't put bread on the table.
I don't think that's laying a guilt trip on her at all. If it makes her feel guilty, then I wonder why? Maybe because she's lost her zest for life and is trying to preserve her energy, whilst she is observing you brimming over with life. That must be hard.
I understand a certain amount, just a little bit about bi-polar disorder. My father-in-law suffers from this and he's told me some things about what he was like when his children were young. His rages were uncontrollable. He's not like that now, takes medication too. Some very famous people have suffered with bi-polar disorder I believe. It never stopped them, even before medication was available. A lot of writers actors musicians and artists. Samuel Johnson was one I think.
Anyway Flo I think anyone who is excluding you from family events is extremely hurtful, and denying you access to your great-neice is odd and not nice, to say the least. There are lot's of things hurting you here, and it sems almost intentional and is impacting on your freedom to relate to other members of your family. Does it feel like you are being kept out. That really must hurt. If you feel this is the case, can you address this in some way. Duscuss the issue in detail. Even take notes. Get an assurance and a commitment that this is not happening, so that if you have to at a future time you can reference back to this conversation you've had.
All the best Flo
Guest
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Surf and Rosencrantz, Yes, relationships do change. I think that is one of the things that is so hard for me to accept about my sister. When she moved within 15 miles of where I live, from over 2500 miles away, we were going to see each other a lot! That what what we expected, and talked about on the phone. When she lived so far away, we talked on the phone A LOT. Now that she is here, we seldom talk on the phone. I am allotted 10 minutes A WEEK. If we talk longer, I am criticized for taking too much of her valuable time.
At first I could accept that she had kids to raise; but the boys have been grown now for several years,and out of her home; but still, she has other priorities than me, her sister. I can't figure out why I am now so far down on her list of priorities. To me, if a person is far, far down on one's list of priorities, it means you don't really CARE about that person!
The people you care about, you spend time with. Even the Bible says: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. And the reverse is true: Where your heart is, that is what you invest your time and money in = that IS your treasure. Her treasure is HER HOUSE. And all the knick knacks in it, and the new floor and redecorating she has been doing on her credit card, so that she HAS to keep a job she hates, so that she HAS NO TIME for people anymore. HER CHOICES. She has been told this by Mother and me, at HER request a couple of years ago, on three occasions when she asked us to help her lower her stress!! And this was BEFORE she got breast cancer -- BEFORE her doctor told her to cut down on stress FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE, but she has NOT done that.
She is killing herself, I think. And she is in so much denial. She refuses to get information about breast cancer, since her doctor told her not to, but to trust him exclusively!!! As a result, she did not have the info she needed to prevent shoulder problems resulting from tendons missing (I think....) and so she can't dance anymore. And believe it or not, she is actually giving "the positive side of not dancing"!!!!! Give me a break!!! She loved dancing more than anything!!! Her S.O. is a dance fiend, and I think this may portend bad things for that relatonship. She is nortorious for finding good, fine, wonderful men -- men other women would just die for -- who do EVERYTHING for her, and then finding fault with them to where she throws them out after about 4 years. And then she is miserable b/c she threw them out, and she feels guilty. Sometimes they even come back, and she then throws them out again!
Anyway: what she did -- you asked!
Well, a couple of weeks ago, on a Friday, she left a message on my voice mail. I had an outgoing message that said I was extremely tired, and to please not leave any messages till Wednesday, and she knows I leave these, so she apologized and said she hesitated to leave me one, but that she knew I wanted to go hear my nephew (her son) play trombone.
My nephew is a professional jazz trombonist, and plays Latin music among other things. And Jim is Latino, as you know. Mostly I do not go, b/c he's either in a Big Band (which I don't dig), or it's really late in the evening, or it's too smoky. But this time, it started at 8:30 p.m. and he was in one of the small combos he plays with.
I only got the message at 1:30 p.m. Saturday b/c I had been asleep and hadn't noticed my light blinking.
On her message she said she wasn't even sure if her S.O. was going, but she thought that Jim and I might want to come.
She must have also said something about other plans....
Anyway, I called her from Jim's at 1:30 and got her voice mail.
Ten minutes later, she called me at Jim's and said: "I said on my message to call me back on Friday night or Saturday morning, and that if you didn't, we were going to make other plans. Now, we have invited this other couple that we have been wanting to get together with for a long time, so we won't be able to go with you after all."
So I said, "Well, we'll just sit someplace else in the restaurant." [She says I was screaming at her at that point....]
She says, "Well....that would look really WEIRD....." meaning, "Don't come at all!!!!!"
I was so HURT and ANGRY -- mostly HURT AND DEVASTATED that she would actually tell me not to come here my nephew play at all, that she was so ashamed of me and Jim that I was persona non grata with her other friends....etc, that I was just BLOWN AWAY.
When I got off the phone, I took the plastic automatic pencil I was holding, and with all my strength, I tried to break it in half; succeeded in bending it and twisting it double, and threw it across the room.
Then I wept.
She called back, and I asked told Jim I wasn't answering it. Jim offered to answer and I said Go ahead.
He was very nice and sweet, not a bit phoney. But my sister denied having told me not to come, and denied having said that we were not welcome to sit with the four of them -- at least according to what Jim told me, and I did hear him say to her, "Well, it certainly did come across that way." He had asked her point blank, too, "Did you or did you not tell Marian that she was not welcome to sit with you and your friends? And did you or did you not tell Marian not to sit elsewhere in the restaurant?" So it was quite obvious she was denying having said this.
She kept asking to speak to me, but Jim told her I was very upset right then, and would talk to her when I was feeling better and ready to talk.
A little later, I went home to cry, and there were three voice mails for me from her. I called Jim and gave him my password, and asked him to listen to them. I was plenty p.o'd that she called back so quickly, when Jim had conveyed to her, with me sitting right there, that I was not ready to talk! And that I would let her know when I was ready. It's par for the course in my family to badger somebody half to death if they are upset and are not able to talk to them.
Jim listened to them, and told me that all three of them were apologies, and he had erased them all. I wish he had not erased them, though. But as it turned out, her "apology" is pretty hollow, which is what I had expected.
Then, Jim told me that he was not going to allow my family to treat me the way it had been, any more!! That they must realize that they would have him to contend with from now on. I really appreciated his support, because I am unable to deal with my sister's irrationality when she is like this.
I know that at least in the past, I got very irrational, too, and was speaking something that sounded like English, but made ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. This is how SHE gets. Both of us are very articulate, normally. But when she gets upset, she starts talking almost gibberish -- she contradicts herself, says one thing, denies she said it, contradicts herself, blames, denies she blamed, just CRAAAAAA-ZZZZZEEEE STUFF. When I first heard her do this, I realized that when my husband told me I made NO SENSE he was actually RIGHT. But now I am on meds, and I sure hope I am not like this now. I do know I now know better than to argue with people when I am upset.
Then, Jim said that I MUST go to the concert. That I could not let myself be pushed around by my sister, etc etc. I said I totally agreed, BUT that I was incapable of going.
Then, Jim called the restaurant, and found out that the band leader was an old friend of HIS, that he had known for 15 years! So we agreed to go see the band due to THAT fact. So he called my sister and told her about his friend, the band leader, and that we were going to see HIM, and that we would be sitting elsewhere in the restaurant.
When we arrived at the restaurant, I headed for the restroom, which meant I had to walk in front of the stage. My sister ran up to me, sorta put her arm around me and sorta tried to kiss me and said cheerily, "Are you sitting with us?" And I looked her straight in the eye and said plainly, and simply, "No."
An hour later, the male of the couple that was sitting with my sister and her S.O. came over and re-introduced himself to me -- seems we'd met some years ago anyway!! I had forgotten, and did not recognize him. But he said he and his wife were about to leave, and my sister had "two chairs" (the place was PACKED) and that she "wants to talk to you." I told him to tell my sister that I was "just fine where I am, but thanks."
Then a few days later, I saw my therapist, and I told him Iwanted my sister to come to my session with me in order to straighten this out. He said that sounded like a good idea.
So I left a message for her that this is what I wanted to do; that her therp could come, too, or that her therp could be on speaker phone.
I did not hear from her for quite a while.
Then I called again and said maybe she didn't feel like coming to the therp and would she prefer to have us ALL on conference calls, with none of us in offices? Or would she maybe like to have our brother be the person we talk to, instead?
She left me a message that she didn't think we needed a third party at all, that it was "just a misunderstanding."
The rest of the story, you all know, I think.
Flo
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:cry: My tears are flowing, friends, because I just had another run-in with my sister.
The final conclusion of THIS one is: We agreed that our definitions of the word "love" are different.
To me, "love" means action, not just a feeling.
To her, my definition is a laying guilt trip on her. To her, love is a feeling, and that is what love is.
Flo
Yes Flo, I'm that guest, the loo paper guest, and I thought your idea about fortune cookie comments was equally hilarious, "The task you are working on now will bring you great relief and much joy."
I cma back to your post because a couple of things you said have stayed in mind. Flo, I think it's fantastic the way you were able to get a definition of love out of your sister, and come to an agreement with her as to how you see it differently. To you love is both feeling and action. Here - here! I whole heartedly agree, otherwise what's the use of the love. I'm a great believer in love in action. The other type doesn't put bread on the table.
I don't think that's laying a guilt trip on her at all. If it makes her feel guilty, then I wonder why? Maybe because she's lost her zest for life and is trying to preserve her energy, whilst she is observing you brimming over with life. That must be hard.
I understand a certain amount, just a little bit about bi-polar disorder. My father-in-law suffers from this and he's told me some things about what he was like when his children were young. His rages were uncontrollable. He's not like that now, takes medication too. Some very famous people have suffered with bi-polar disorder I believe. It never stopped them, even before medication was available. A lot of writers actors musicians and artists. Samuel Johnson was one I think.
Anyway Flo I think anyone who is excluding you from family events is extremely hurtful, and denying you access to your great-neice is odd and not nice, to say the least. There are lot's of things hurting you here, and it sems almost intentional and is impacting on your freedom to relate to other members of your family. Does it feel like you are being kept out. That really must hurt. If you feel this is the case, can you address this in some way. Duscuss the issue in detail. Even take notes. Get an assurance and a commitment that this is not happening, so that if you have to at a future time you can reference back to this conversation you've had.
All the best Flo
Guest
Flo, I had to jump of the computer before I finished my reply. Sorry. I share it with a few others in my family. But I just wanted to say I think you are doing incredibly well. I can understand how you can feel that your father loved you. The fact that you've tried to understand him, and an can now see that he had a disorder must make sense of a whole lot of stuff for you. My husband is in the process of going through this with his father. The whole story is too heartbreaking. But the result is my husband is has NPD. In therapy. Gotta go, kicked off again. Hugs to you Flo,
Guest.
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Dear Jac and GuestCookie,
Guest, to me you are GuestCookie. I'm sure you will still sign on as simply "Guest" but your heart shines through your posts, and I can feel and spot you immediately, I think. I'm naming you GuestCooking ONLY WITH YOUR PERMISSION of course!!!!!! It's because of the fortune cookie thing. It's better than LooGuest!!!!!! :P Even though that was your joke and the fortune cookie was mine..... :lol:
I stayed up till almost 2:00 a.m. last night reading the chapter on Healing oneself in **Trapped in the Mirror** last night. What a wonderful chapter, and what a BEAUTIFUL PERSON Elan Golomb, PhD must be!!!! After reading this chapter, I truly feel I love her, or certain I would likely do so if I could only meet her some day.
Here are two things she says which address exactly what you two have written in your most recent posts above. And btw, THANK YOU BOTH for your COMPLETE SUPPORT, and total understanding. And yes, lots of famous people are/were bipolar. Ted Turner, still living of course; and Joshua Logan, one of the most famous of Broadway and Hollywood's directors -- if you were a little older, you'd remember the things he did, b/c practially every famous musical of the 1950s was one he directed. He favored plays that had HOPEFUL ENDINGS. What a great man he was!! He said that any play that had a hopeful ending was going to be smash hit -- and was he ever right. Wouldn't it be nice to see more of those these days, too? We sure need hopeful endings.
Lincoln may have been bipolar, and seeing the PBS bio of him and his wife, I am sure she was. She, like many bipolars have tragic endings. She died in a psychiatric hospital. Some die of suicide. Esp. b4 medications, but still today. I know several personal friends who have. :cry:
Joshua Logan's autobiography is called **Josh** and I highly recommend it! He talks a bit about his bipolar, in the book.'
Anyway: here is what Golomb says (p. 178):
"I remember reading Buddha's response to Ananda, his slowest disciple. Ananda said, "Friendship seems very important to me. Is it?" Buddha answered, :!: "Friendship is the most important thing."
She also wrote of her experiences in Tibet. One in particular moved her. It was when she was visiting an outback family and saw the naturally loving way in which children were raised, and honored.
"Both of them [mother and baby] seemed content as I plunged into a deep depression that lasted days. I did not know what made me sad. Now I know it was seeing a child fully respected and loved. I had never felt that way with my narcissistic parents, who only gave me what they wished.
:arrow: "I was in mourning. Children of narcissists need to mourn the knowledge that such a childhood will never come to us. I saw how things can be and that my narcissistic parents [and sister: Flo] could not give me this...My wish and hope of receiving such love from them steals away my energy. I molder in waiting."
I know I am in mourning now.
In my case, such a loving adult relationship with my family can never be -- no matter what words they use! Words are cheap. No matter how many "I love you's" or beautiful greeting cards, their actions belie these words and show that the love we shared as children is gone for good.
And HERE IS THE REAL KEY:
Golomb writes (p. 179)
:idea: "Surrendering one's expectation of such a full love from the narcissistic parent or a narcissistic surrogate [or sister: Flo] is childhood's end.
"There wil be a vacuum in response to my need and not the kind that nature fills....I must rethink what I call love. [See, I have already done that! But my sister and mother have not. Flo] ...... Childhood leaves its scars......I will heal myself by finding love to share." :)
Love and gratitude to all on this thread and all who read it,
Flo
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Hi Flo, very moving. Sometimes we just have to move on understanding that people don't change at the same rates, or sometimes they don't change at all. Am looking foreward to reading the book as it is in the mail Surf
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Hi Flo, it's me Cookie Guest, I was wondering if you have any children of your own? I don't remember you mentioning any, though I may have missed it. And by the way, how are you going today? You certainly got a whole truckload of a mix of feedback and opinions to mull on, didn't you? I like the way you handled it all too. Explaining and sometimes re-explaining, clarifying, and so patiently, without taking exception. You were totally cool babe.
Love Guest
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Hi, Cookie Guest and Surf,
I guess I am feeling rather blue. Or blah, maybe.
Thanks for being here for me. It is quite difficult to lose my sister. I have not really had total trust for her, at any time in my life. But now, she has grown in a completely different direction and is in a totally different "place" from me. During the time we have live geographically close, which is the past 11 years or more, I have helped her with some stuff. Like once a long time ago, I helped her move her classroom stuff to another room at the end of the school year. But later on she told me I was just in the way! She has NO ability to delegate.
I have cleaned out her closet. But this, too, was a nuisance, it seems.
I was right there for her when she wrenched her back and could not walk. At least THAT was needed. I stayed with her for a few days, and was there for her to lean on when she first went to the doctor, too. I fixed her food, and did whatever she needed, pretty much, despite my own exhaustion which is part of my life at all times. I did what I could.
And I loved helping her out. I loved it because she was my sister.
In 1998 she and I took a swing dance class together, too. It was so fun. That was one of the most wonderful things, for me, that we have ever done together. Since we shared an apartment in San Francisco in the 1960s.
And Cookie Guest, no, I have no children. Not really. I am a birth mother to a daughter. She was adopted when I was 22. I knew due to my extreme mood swings, the craziness and brutality of my dad that I would be a bad parent. Just like him, even though I did not want to be. I did not know how to be a reasonable person. I had so much trouble taking care of MYSELF -- and I really could NOT take care of myself, nor support myself financially, either -- that I knew I could not bear to be with another person 24/7. I could not even stand to have a room mate in college, but had to have a single room. And only a few weeks before I got accidentally pregnant, despite using the only birth control available to me in 1963, when I was 21 physically, 13 emotionally, with a college degree and a teaching job, alone in a new small town over 2000 miles away from home by choice! and no friends, no support! that I could never raise a child. I had even tried to have a cat, and after less than a week, had given it back to it's previous owner.
Everyone who knows me well thinks I did the right and wise thing to release the daughter for adoption. Later she went through an illegal search to find me, lied about who she was to friends, etc etc, and disrupted my life. But what I did learn is that she has a lovely adoptive set of beautiful parents who have given her tons of love and a beautiful upbringing. Too bad they supported her by breaking into her county's archives to start the trace for me. NOT the way to meet a birthmother!! Very deceiptful. Deception and lies do not a relationship build!!! Only brews grief and trouble. She used me for information about the family gene pool, of which I knew nothing due to the secrecy in my own family.
So anyhoo, that's how things are and were with me. I wish I could come back to life. I'm just real blah and down. Not terribly depressed -- just down-ish and blah. I see others around me, and by comparison I am a complete dud.
Love,
Flo
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PS Only at the moment I am a dud.
I have not been full of life since December. That's bipolar disorder for ya. Up and down. Charisma followed by blahness. Plenty of energy, followed by sleep and dulling out big time.
We bring events, love, and people into our lives, only to let them down later.
Flo
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Hi Flo, feelin down, feelin blue, well I'll just come on over and chat to you. Ave ya bin' takin' ya happy pills girl? Can I run on down to tha drugstore and get ya a carton of Effox or whatever the hell they're called.
That's what one of my best friends calls her pills, her happy pills. She has BPD too. But she's got one of the weirdest cases of BPD her therapist has ever come across, she reckons. And she's (my friend) at Uni studying law. Her pills stop her shoplifting, stealing from her mother, hocking her mum's TV, flashin' her huge tits when we're out in the car, and from wearing out vibrators (if you know what I mean).
She's got no qualms sleeping with the professor for good marks. Not that she needs to, she's so damn smart. Doesn't ever seem to study and does brilliantly. It's like her brain is a sponge and a memory like an elephant, and beautiful to boot. Only she's got no bum, flat as pancake, I told her to get implants in the arse and she'd knock 'em dead. I was reading about Spike Milligan today. He suffered from shell-shock or PTSD as we say now (plum in the mouth) in polite society. Mustn't call it what it really is, "The thing that we get when we have the crap kicked out of us our whole frickin' childhood." What a comic genius he was. You know what his epitaph is, "I told you I was sick." I buckled up.
Anyhoo, Flu me girl, me love, me little puddin' pie, it was so frank and honest of you to talk about the child you had at 22. From the sounds of it you made the wisest choice, in light of the fact you had no family help, and could barely cope with yourself. My God woman, who would inflict that on anybody. (I'm pontificating Flo, taking off my arrogant SOB mother.)
Obviously it wasn't easy, but by the sounds of it, you done well! I'm just gettting kicked off this darn computer and I was just warming up. I'll get back to you love. The sun is gonna shine tomorrow, and so will you again soon. Keep talkin'.
Hugs and love, Cookie Guest
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Hi Flo, if you are going thru a down spell it might be good if you can try not to dwell too much on your sister's behavior; it sounds like you have given a lot but she's just not 'there' right now. Probably best to focus on yourself and what makes you feel better during these times. Do your blah's last for weeks or months usually and if so how long do the up times last? Is there something that happens to bump you out of the down spells or do they have a life of their own? Hang in there and look for the love and support from the places it is actually coming from at this point in time. Take care. Surf :)
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Hi, Cookie Guest and Surf,
Today I got to feeling a lot better. For one thing, my living room is neat. My volunteer came yesterday, and we worked on it. She stacked up the papers on my computer desk in a neat stack. She'd done the same to the eating table and the other desk last week. So I am now stacking any loose papers on top of these stacks neatly instead of just tossing them around. And today, my house cleaning sweet woman came and cleaned a bunch, and I got my laundry done, and she folded it. Would you b'lieve all this is mine since I am 60 y/o? My tax dollars at work!!! You, too, may be so privileged one day, if you get to be 60 and IF we can turn around the economy in the USA, which is where I live. If we dont' turn this economy around (remember, under President Clinton, we had a SURPLUS?????) we'll probably lose this, and Medicare and Social Security, too. And of course we continue to lose jobs by the thousands to out-sourcing and slave labor. But dont' get me started.
Anyway, Having a nice, clean, neat place helps a ton.
Plus, Jim finally is coming around about the argument we got into the day before yesterday. The way I put it to him is: "What do we do when there are two bossy people bossing each other?? **I** sure don't know!!! LOLOL!!!" He said he had no idea how to start the discussion, either, but start it we would, and take care of the problem once and for all. He had forgotten that he'd started yelling at me in the hall so loud that I had put my hand over his mouth to shut him up. I told him that was verbal abuse on his part, and physical abuse on my part, and I regretted both, and that we must never let things like this slide, or they would fester in our relationship, forever, and never go away. He completely agrees. We've made good progress already, so this all helps.'
Plus, our friend came home from the hospital. She had a heart attack yesterday, and came home against doctor's' orders today. Personally I think she was smart to come home, after she told me why. I know I would have done exactly as she has. She is Russian or Romanian or something, and her English is not good; and she hates regular American food -- she is a fantastic gourmet Russian cook -- she is always giving her cooking treats to us and others around the building, too. Anyway, when I went to see her early this evening, there she was in her robe STANDING BY THE SINK washing out her little cheese cloth thing, getting ready (or having finishied?) making cottage cheese. I hollered a little at her with lots of love and said, WHAT are you doing out here!!??? You are supposed to be in bed!
Her grown grandson was there with her, too, and I said, "Can't you make your grandmother stay in bed?" He said that would be utterly impossible!! Even if he tied her down, she would fight against the ropes and get worse than before!!!
So anyway, the reason she came home, she told me was that (1) she could not get any rest. Every two hours they came and took her for another test! All day and all night!!! (2) It was so noisy there she could not sleep! (3) She was very hungry! (4) and of course, she needed a lot of rest.
Plus, she said they were going to give her an "angel test." Probably some sort of angiogram??? Anyway, she said her sister had already had one, and she wants to talk to her sister before she elects to have, or not have, an "angel test." She says they put a tube or something into the lower right side of your torso, and it goes up a vein into your heart. She wanted to know how painful it is, or if it's painful. So she plans to ask her sister.
Plus, she has very strong religious beliefs, and is all worked up and worried about something to do with the Book of Revelation. She thinks the anti-christ is coming on September 6-8, 2004 and she wants to "go home" into the next world, before then anyway. She is not at all afraid of passing on. Since my beliefs are definitely of a continuation of life, too, and I am not afraid, either, and have a knowledge of how the treatment can definitely sometimes be worse than the disease, I told her I thought her decision was very wise.
So it is nice to see her home. She has good friends here in the building, and her grandson is living with her, and helps her, too.
All these things have cheered me. And I also did some work on my painting again today; and also decided to lose 10 pounds. So I gave away my huge package of Mounds bars. There were a bunch of litle ones, and I put them in choice places all over the building, and gave them to 4 friends including the two cleaning people and one of the maintenance men, too. They were delighted, and I was delighted to see them so happy, and glad to see my fat leaving. I can't hardly do my yoga due to 2 rolls of fat on my tummy.
Like both of you have advised, I have quit thinking so much about my sister,and have been thinking about creative endeavors, and doing some.
The cats are well, Jim and I are well, and I am also going to get to bed earlier from now on. Except I am later than I wanted to be.
I hope this is not too long, or that you have stopped reading by now.
Thank you both and all for your sweet posts, and great support. I guess my blahs didn't last forever like I thought they would.
Oh -- and as for h ow long the dullsville lasts -- it differs, and is impossible to tell. I take Effexor, which is what it sounds like the law student takes. It has taken away the pain in my back, too. Did I tell you I had a massage on Monday? A friend gives me massages very cheap! $7.00 or whatever I can afford. He's just a sweet guy. He's blind and on disability so does not really need the money, I guess. He is licensed LMT and is an amazing healer. He showed me how to make the metatarsals in my feet move!! (Those are the bones that run from the base of the toes to the ankles -- the basic long "foot bones.") Whee. What fun. (If you grab any two adjacent knuckles on one of your hands, you can move the metacarpals, which are the equivalent hand bones. You can do this with ALL the metacarpal sets of 2. Well, he showed me the exact same thing with the feet.) He realigned the big toe in my right foot, which gets "out" occasionally and showed me how to fix it myself from now on. It really makes my feet limber and feel so good.
Love,
Flo
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Hi Flo, Cookie Guest here.
I'm so glad you are starting to feel better. Doesn't having things neat and tidy help us feel better.
I tell you, any test called 'Angel Test' sounds pretty bad to be. A nice name to make something awful sound not so bad.
I don't know about 'End Times' teaching. I got sucked into Hal Lindsay's Late Great Planet Earth, back in the early 80's. I spent a huge amount of an inheritance I had, because of the cult I was in (they got most of it). And I'll be damned if when Jesus didn't come back in August 1984 (like they promised) I was up the proverbial creek without a paddle financially.
Anyway, each to there own, so long as your friend doesn't get sucked in like I did. I had zero common sense where that cult was concerned. I swallowed the whole line. Hook, line, sinker, fisherman, boat.
So you and Jim had a lover's tiff huh? I missed that one. But did you make up?
I lost 20 kgs in 3 months after 3 years of doctor's orders telling me I had to lose weight. I have diabetes and had a heart attack 3 years ago. I've tried every diet known to man. I had never been overweight, always skinny till 7 years ago. Stress and depression blah blah blah. I put on 25 kilo's over about a 2 year period. Went up to a size 14. I've lost it all over the past year and from say 6 months ago it's all stayed off.
I went on a high catabolic diet. It's a really easy diet. Food that burns more calories when you eat it than it provides. So each time you eat something catabolic, like an apple, you're in a negative calorie situation. Say an apple has 100 claories, it takes the body say (and I can't remember exactly) 150 calories to digest it. I only buy high catabolic foods I like when I buy the groceries. So I've got nothing fattening to snack on. Plus 1 or 2 glasses of red wine each night helps.
And I've been mainly vegetarian my whole adult life so bowls of steamed vegies are heaven to me and super high catabolic. I was hooked on frozen yoghurt so I don't buy that anymore either. So a good start is don't buy or cook anything you really like that's fattening. And 10 kilo's to lose isn't to bad. Go Flo, and 7 bucks for a massage, heaven! My cat says hi to your cats. I've got a, a, a, I can't damn well remember the breed, but he's gorgeous. I got him for my children, and I wasn't a cat person originally but he's won me over. I just love him.
Flo now down to this healing business, I can't remember if you've already said, but when did you first learn that you had Bi-Polar disorder?
It hasn't always been called that has it? It was manic-depression.
Was this purely stress induced in you, or as you say, you now think your father had it?
Is it genetic, hereditary do you think?
I was wondering if disorders like Bi-polar, if they are genetic sort of lay dormant in us, and then contact with say, a Narcissist coming in to our life becomes like just the perfect fertilizer it needs to set it (these disorders) off, to take on a life within us. This is the question in my mind recently. Love and best wishes to you Flo
Guest