Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on February 22, 2007, 11:59:35 PM
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CB wrote this in another thread and I pulled it out.
There is a true truth in the world. And I am sure it can be known, and probably this philosophical question is imbedded in it. But I havent seen much good come out of the belief that some people don't deserve love. So, I choose to operate as though they do--because of who I want to be
I thought about this all night last night, CB.
If you feel nurturing, that is a lovely feeling... And let's say you have a dead plant you are nurturing. While you may be OK with the feeling of keeping the soil nice... the plant is dead. So, while the good intention is there (love and nurturing), the point of it is rather wasted without something to be the receipient.
With the N, I think it is much the same. You are giving love to a creature who can't understand it. And, while the creature doesn't feel it as love, it knows it is power... which almost ruins the pureness of the feeling that was intended.
Love, Beth
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I'm going to try and keep this dead plant image in mind, Beth. I think it will help will in gaining some kind of detachment as well as understanding.
Pennyplant
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((( Beth )))
Wonderful allegory
Perfectly illustrates ......... likewise, I am going to 'save this'
Especially with regard to ' Balanced Thinking ' (to include the Positive and the Negatives)
no amount of positive thinking is going to resurrect that plant!!
Leah
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Terrific metaphor, Beth. Thanks so much.
This is one of those ideas that stays with you and helps for the rest of the journey.
:cool:
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(((Beth)))
Just wanted to pass on a word of heartfelt "thanks" to you from someone, who needed and appreciated your allegory.
Leah
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I may have gotten off easy in N-land compared to others.
I am sure I have.
But still, I can't deny them their humanity.
When I think that way it twists me into a direction that feels wrong.
It's not the same as condoning their behavior or making myself vulnerable to them.
Not at all.
Just philosophically, I refuse to separate myself from them as another human being.
They are broken in ways that make them dangerous for me to be around them, so I won't be.
And I know some should be locked up and have the key tossed into the moat.
Don't mean to belabor the point but somehow I feel if I reach the point where I declare that anyone, at all, is not a human being, then I am less human myself.
Hops
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Hops, we have to agree to disagree on this.
You know that business about coats being sold in this country having dog fur on them?
Apparently, some of the dogs were skinned without first being killed.
It was videotaped.
Can you even begin to imagine those poor animals' agony? Their terror?
Hops, to me, the people who did that are no longer members of the human race in any way. To consider such evil creatures as my brothers and sisters is what would make me less of a human being.
There's a lot more evil, just like that and worse, walking this earth on two legs, wearing human faces. It starts with innocent, defenseless animals. It rarely ever stops there.
Please consider what you defend.
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Sure, we can disagree, Storm. I'm startled anyone could interpret my post as me defending evil.
I don't use the word, mostly. Many people do and it's a very powerful word. For me personally, I'm sure because of the particular way I evolved in my particular life, it has a primitive feel to it that conjures up something I don't like to participate in. I find that my own thinking about evil, or about human indifference to suffering, locks up, gets frozen, when I label a person "evil". I don't progress. I did not like People of the Lie for this reason.
I just progress more when I set boundaries in my own mind, my own personal way of using language to guide my thoughts and my life. This is an example. It has been helpful for me. I can see that the word is important to you, and I see its utility. Nobody else's brain has to work like mine does. (Thank heaven.)
My resisting using that label personally might be misunderstood. But that's why I said it has nothing to do with condoning cruelty or wanting perpetrators to not be held accountable. I think the way I would be more likely to describe people who torture animals, or human beings, is insane, or morally broken. I wish they were all safely locked up, and permanently.
Hmmm. Another thought. I think the word "evil" increases fear in my world. I don't like to feed that part of myself, because I am working on becoming happier and more effective. One example is trying to follow GS' example of paying closer attention to what I place in my head. In terms of thoughts, and the words that make up my thoughts.
But...I "see" with words, and I do see broken and dangerous people as human beings. I am not in the slightest denial about how destructive and amoral humans can be.
We are a stunningly complicated species.
Hops
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Sure, we can disagree, Storm. I'm startled anyone could interpret my post as me defending evil.
I don't use the word, mostly. Many people do and it's a very powerful word. For me personally, I'm sure because of the particular way I evolved in my particular life, it has a primitive feel to it that conjures up something I don't like to participate in. I find that my own thinking about evil, or about human indifference to suffering, locks up, gets frozen, when I label a person "evil". I don't progress. I did not like People of the Lie for this reason.
I just progress more when I set boundaries in my own mind, my own personal way of using language to guide my thoughts and my life. This is an example. It has been helpful for me. I can see that the word is important to you, and I see its utility. Nobody else's brain has to work like mine does. (Thank heaven.)
My resisting using that label personally might be misunderstood. But that's why I said it has nothing to do with condoning cruelty or wanting perpetrators to not be held accountable. I think the way I would be more likely to describe people who torture animals, or human beings, is insane, or morally broken. I wish they were all safely locked up, and permanently.
Hmmm. Another thought. I think the word "evil" increases fear in my world. I don't like to feed that part of myself, because I am working on becoming happier and more effective. One example is trying to follow GS' example of paying closer attention to what I place in my head. In terms of thoughts, and the words that make up my thoughts.
But...I "see" with words, and I do see broken and dangerous people as human beings. I am not in the slightest denial about how destructive and amoral humans can be.
We are a stunningly complicated species.
Hops
Thanks, Hops. Indeed we are, but I think we also complicate things for ourselves quite often when there is no need. Now that they've discovered chimpanzees are spearing little sleeping bushbabies to death in their nests, I'm even more convicted with regard to the inhumanness of certain actions.
Here's a bushbaby. Fast asleep, defenseless against a spear? Talk about doomed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galago
Here are some raccoon dogs, unwilling contributor to those stylish coats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Dog
If you wish to extend love to people who skin these pretty little animals alive because you truly believe that they are just like you, really, deep down inside, and that you are capable of that yourself, that's your choice; I hope, though, that if you had to face the natural consequences of that decision in realspace, you would recoil in utter horror.
I prefer to avoid such people, keep those I love out of range of any such, and work diligently, insofar as is within my scope, to limit their opportunities to do harm in this world.
But then, I know absolutely that I will never, under any circumstances, deliberately choose to skin an animal alive. I am a coward in some major ways, a lot of them places where I haven't figured out a 'good' way to respond to something 'bad'. But there are things I am willing to die for, and that includes certain convictions. I would starve before I would do something like that to any creature. I've put my money where my mouth is on a number of other occasions, over several other convictions, to the point where I've endured significant personal privation as a direct consequence. So I know this with certainty.
I think the bottom line is just that I'm less afraid of certain things than you are, and more afraid of certain other things than you are. I don't see that as stunningly complex - it's just a fact of life.
In a few decades, give or take, we'll both have our answers, and then we will know how well we chose the things we fear. Meanwhile, we disagree, and I will try to respect your choices while continuing to respect mine.
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As the perpetrator of the original question on Toodles thread I would like to say that I agree with CBs bisection of the nature of the question and how we should live.
Whether people deserve love is largely an academic question or a moot point, as in it is merely debatable and of little practical value.
I happen to think people do not automatically deserve love. But like CB I believe it is important to treat them as though they do. They are not mutually exclusive.
I believe the most important and immediate beneficiary of us living that way is not those we aim our love at but ourselves. If we begin to pick and choose who will receive love and who won't we will have usurped God and nothing good ever comes of that. Where our discretion should be I think is in how we love those who are most unlovable and destructive not whether we love them.
I have to respectfully disagree with Stormchild on one point. I think the cruel and heartless are being all too human. If I discount the basest human behavior as not human I have denied what is in each one of us at some level; what each one of us, given a certain upbringing or influence or just enough stress and fear, is capable of.
I don't want to risk becoming the Pharisee standing on the corner praying "God I thank you I am not like these other men....." because I am like all other men.
I want to be the tax collector bowing his head and praying "God be merciful to me a sinner".
mud
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CB's post was regarding the issue of whether or not a person "Deserves to be loved"
Beth's thread / post is ........
If you feel nurturing, that is a lovely feeling... And let's say you have a dead plant you are nurturing. While you may be OK with the feeling of keeping the soil nice... the plant is dead. So, while the good intention is there (love and nurturing), the point of it is rather wasted without something to be the recipient.
With the N, I think it is much the same. You are giving love to a creature who can't understand it. And, while the creature doesn't feel it as love, it knows it is power... which almost ruins the pureness of the feeling that was intended.
So with regard to Beth's thread / post (this one) and her allegory of the dead plant ..... I interpreted it as such ......
The N's in my life did not want my love.
I was watering them with my love ........ and their heart was dead ....... unreceptive.
Leah
Regarding Sin and Sinners ...... God unconditionally loves the Sinner ........ but hates the Sin.
A truly Repentant Sinner is Forgiven by God ...... and his/her sins are remembered no more.
God's freewill saving Grace ...... we are unworthy - we don't deserve it .. nor .. can we earn it.
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So with regard to Beth's thread / post (this one) and her allegory of the dead plant ..... I interpreted it as such ......
The N's in my life did not want my love.
I was watering them with my love ........ and their heart was dead ....... unreceptive.
I agree Leah. That's why I say we must love people differently. Those who are destructive must be loved at a distance. Even if our love only amounts to hoping for the best for them and never contacting them again it is still a form of love.
mud
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In a few decades, give or take, we'll all have our answers, and then we will know how well we chose.
Meanwhile, we disagree. I will respect your choices while continuing to respect mine.
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So with regard to Beth's thread / post (this one) and her allegory of the dead plant ..... I interpreted it as such ......
The N's in my life did not want my love.
I was watering them with my love ........ and their heart was dead ....... unreceptive.
I agree Leah. That's why I say we must love people differently. Those who are destructive must be loved at a distance. Even if our love only amounts to hoping for the best for them and never contacting them again it is still a form of love.
mud
Yes, I understand what you are saying Mud - and I agree with you.
With my N's .. never felt any hate at all - not did I seek vengeance. The love in my heart for them is one of Agape compassion.
Believe it or not I have even been supportive to them on occasions, from a distance. Particularly, as my exnH is the father of my son.
Having said that, Truth, Reality, Wisdom and Discernment must always be my guide.
C.S. Lewis wrote a book on the Four Loves ..... from the greek origin meaning of love, of which there are four words ....
Storge - Affection .... is fondness through familiarity, especially between family members or people who have otherwise found themselves together by chance
Phillia - Friendship .... is a strong bond existing between people who share a common interest or activity.
Eros - Eros ............ is love in the sense of 'being in love'.
Agapē - Charity ......... is a love directed towards one's neighbor which does not depend on any lovable qualities that the object of love possesses. Lewis recognizes this as the greatest of loves, and sees it as a specifically Christian virtue.
Studied both CS Lewis writings on Love from the Greek origin and meaning, in addition to the works of Zodhiates Greek Bible and
in all, finally understood what Love actually is in real terms.
God Bless you.
Leah
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I will not expand on this post nor respond to anyone's comments about it and I do not direct it toward anyone in particular, but;
I find it very annoying when I post an innocent statement in good faith and one person who may be having a problem with another person uses that innocent statement to indirectly criticise the person they are in conflict with. I have seen it happen to others as well as myself. It is not particularly ethical and it often causes misunderstandings between people who have nothing to do with the conflict. It also leads to self censorship as people try to avoid being drawn into other's probems.
I would appreciate anyone who is having a conflict with someone else to please keep the problem confined to the other person directly and not use my or other people's words to make a point.
If anyone has no idea what I'm talking about then you can be sure you had nothing to do with it. :P
mud
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Hi Jac,
Well I only knew of Eros .... till someone preached in my church .... about 10 years ago now I think,
on the greek origin of Love, and the four greek words that make up love,
so I did some digging and also purchased a copy of the CS Lewis book.
It certainly helped me, with my question of "what the heck is love anyway?"
"Love and Truth" .... certainly in an ideal world .... should go together
Leah
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I don't know if everyone deserves love.
When I thought about that word (deserve) this is the only thing that came to mind. The only way I could apply the word. You know I was married to an N and my thoughts did not connect (deserve) toward him. Only connected when I thought of a child.
If I had a child that was an N I would not stop loving them or love them any less.
It would not be in my power. I would love them as I always have from the moment of conception to my/their dying day. This is my child, my flesh, my blood a part of me. I might have to change my behavior with them but not my love for them. Would they deserve love/ worthy of it? Yes of course,from me. It would go without question. I brought them into this world. Just because they don't work right does not mean I should not love them.
So no matter what they turned out to be I feel that they should be deserving of love if from me alone.
That's about all I can comment on. My feelings of other N's are mixed and I'm not quite sure how I feel when (deserve)comes up
With my exN friend and exnH. I don't feel love or hate for them.
Love Deb.
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Deb,
To deserve .... dictionary def = to be worthy of ...
With regards to N's ... which I think we are all referring to .......
Personally ..... Compassion - Charitable love from a distance is all I can give.
(in the past I have used the word 'pity' but many don't like that word)
and so my personal thoughts are ... that is all they do deserve, after what they have done to me.
All in all, difficult subject.
Leah
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(((((((((((((((((Everyone))))))))))))))))
Wow, this thread brought out a lot of different ideas.
For me, personally, I see my mother as being all too human... and a sad figure at that. I pity her and that pity almost borders on love... if that could make any sense to anyone. At the same time, when I see the picture of my life and the damage she has done to me to: keep herself from being bored/feeling better than others/use me as her presentation for attention... I find it hard to love her. I am sorry that she is not happy, but the destruction she continuously causes will not stop and I cannot give any more love to her. I know it must still be there as I can feel hate toward her at times, which seems to me to prove I am still fighting the love I thought I had. I am not sure this will make sense to anyone. Obviously, it is hard to sort out all of these feeling.
Thank you all for the opinions (I know they can be difficult to share) and for the positive response on my metaphor...
Love, Beth
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(((((((((((((((((Everyone))))))))))))))))
Wow, this thread brought out a lot of different ideas.
For me, personally, I see my mother as being all too human... and a sad figure at that. I pity her and that pity almost borders on love... if that could make any sense to anyone. At the same time, when I see the picture of my life and the damage she has done to me to: keep herself from being bored/feeling better than others/use me as her presentation for attention... I find it hard to love her. I am sorry that she is not happy, but the destruction she continuously causes will not stop and I cannot give any more love to her. I know it must still be there as I can feel hate toward her at times, which seems to me to prove I am still fighting the love I thought I had. I am not sure this will make sense to anyone. Obviously, it is hard to sort out all of these feeling.
Thank you all for the opinions (I know they can be difficult to share) and for the positive response on my metaphor...
Love, Beth
Dear ((( Beth)))
Certainly does make sense to me, as my mother has used me that way too. The feelings that you have now will change in time so that you find that feeling of hate creeping in, instead you feel genuine pity. Well that's how I progressed, the feeling I had was of anger .... angry that she had ruined so many good precious years of my life.
But now ... the years ahead are mine, truly mine ...... with peace and hope in my heart ...... my hopes and dreams are written down for the next 5 years ...... and during these next 5 years .... I will write down my hopes and dreams for the following 5 years.
Along our journey we each have a rainbow waiting for us.
Leah xx
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Beth - I don't know if this will help or not. It isn't original, I'm not sure who first wrote it, but in my experience it's true.
"The opposite of love is not hatred, but indifference."
Detachment is often mistaken for indifference, but it isn't. When you're detached from a situation you may be grieving intensely about it, but you have realized that you cannot make a constructive difference and therefore there is quite literally nothing positive that you can do - except to detach.
It's easy to tell the difference, because with detachment, a person moves through the process of grieving, and usually remains willing and prepared to give positive assistance if that ever becomes a realistic possibility. Indifference checks out and never looks back.
Most of the people here who have found no alternative to cutoff, in various situations, are far from indifferent about that. But to preserve their own sanity, they've realized, they had to detach.
[Edit in: I'm trying to decide if I think that hatred is 'thwarted controlling' or 'thwarted love'. The older I get and the more I see, including my own history, I have to admit that the desire to control outcomes seems to be a lot of the power source behind hating.
We're really never taught, anywhere, that love does not control - in fact, much of what is marketed in the guise of love is candy-coated controlling and little else - so it doesn't make much sense to blame people for this. But if you look at the very heart and core of the Christian faith, it is love without control. Free will. God made us, loved us, and gave us freedom. Our misuse of that - is the next chapter in the story, not the beginning. It began in absolute love with no external controlling. Somehow, for all the Christianity in this country, that part of the lesson so often seems to be lost.
Oh, I've given you a layman's Lenten homily. Well... it's that time of year.]
((((((((((Beth))))))))))
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You know what, jac, I think you are 100% right. I would NEVER tell my mother how I felt about her or even hint at it. It seems disrespectful. And knowing that she can't change, there seems no point to it anyways. I will have to think more about this.
Storm,
Thank you for your post. It is very deep and I need to think about it a bit more.
Love, Beth