Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: DivineSunshine on February 26, 2007, 11:03:22 PM
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Hey all,
I have been taking time out to read some books I picked up last week, and I wanted to see if anyone out there has read Contolling People by Patricia Evans.
I really liked it. Wow. Couldn't put it down. It once again, like this board, it verified I wasn't alone. I wasn't being neurotic and crazy, too sensitive, or all those things people say when they want you to just shut up and take it.
She has an analogy of what she calls the "Teddy (bear)" treatment.
The controller sees their prey as a teddy bear who has no identity. Their dream person with no ideas value or opinion. Who they can just talk at and always get approval and company. And they are just finewith that until "Teddy" shows they have an identity. A belief, a feeling, a wish, a need. Etc.
THEN, "Teddy" must be dealt with. And fast. They throw everything in the arsenal at them to get them back under "control" (and mute again basically)
Amazing analogy.
Very good explanation of why they do this, not excusing the behavior, just a VERY good view into their minds from the outside in. She explains how a controller defines others from the outside in the way they want them to be without ever giving them the chance or freedom to be themself.
She may as well been writing about my Nh. I swear, I was mystified and relieved to see some hope for coping, seeing, and moving on with my sanity intact.
Anyone read this one yet? If not, I recommend it.
Namaste & Peace,
Sunny
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I have not read the book but will. My pastor, ex pastor, sounds like that. He cannot tolerate the most minimum disagreement. He feels attacked. He is such an N!!! Then he does everything to kick the person out of the church. He asks everybody not to talk to that person. He did it to two people before he did it to me. Then he did it to me. Those people who follow his orders, make me disgusted. Because I think that if a person has not done anything wrong, the other people have no reason to get mad a that person. And get mad at somebody just because somebody asked you to do it, means to be a bubble head. And those bubble heads that say yes to everything that N pastor says will pay consequenses someday for their depraved passivity, depraved indifference, lack of brain.
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Hi Sunny
Thanks for sharing this book.
Not read this one "Controlling People" ....... have read Patricia's books on Verbal Abuse and relationships.
She has an analogy of what she calls the "Teddy (bear)" treatment.
The controller sees their prey as a teddy bear who has no identity. Their dream person with no ideas value or opinion. Who they can just talk at and always get approval and company. And they are just finewith that until "Teddy" shows they have an identity. A belief, a feeling, a wish, a need. Etc.
THEN, "Teddy" must be dealt with. And fast. They throw everything in the arsenal at them to get them back under "control" (and mute again basically)
Amazing analogy.
Wow Sunny, That is a brilliant analogy ....... how am I going to look at dear ol' Teddy now ?? :)
Seriously, that is a brilliant illustration of what a controlling person would do to someone who is either enmeshed with an N or has just left an N ........ and is struggling to find herself ........... her identity.
This clearly demonstates just how vulnerable we are at this stage ......... easy prey and pickings for a Controller !!!
Wish I had had this info before that new friend (now ex friend) ..... but better late than never??!!
Thinking about it ........ we really do need to be alert and stay on guard (be discerning).
Looking forward to hearing some more from your book.
Validation truly is liberating.
Thanks again Sunny.
(( Leah ))
Patricia Evans certainly has her finger on the pulse regarding Controllers ......... Wow! Just looked at her website and she has this statement at the top ........
Controllers use verbal abuse to subtly undermine their victim's perceptions, to manipulate them into doing what they want, to foster dependency, to isolate them from truth, from outside contact and even from their own children. They may withhold information while lying to their victim.. Controllers create confusion, emotional pain and mental anguish, while periodically "rescuing" their victim by seeming to offer the balm of love that alleviates the victim's pain drawing the victim ever closer. Controllers gain and maintain power over people while often presenting a perfect persona to the world.
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I have not read the book but will. My pastor, ex pastor, sounds like that. He cannot tolerate the most minimum disagreement. He feels attacked. He is such an N!!! Then he does everything to kick the person out of the church. He asks everybody not to talk to that person. He did it to two people before he did it to me. Then he did it to me. Those people who follow his orders, make me disgusted. Because I think that if a person has not done anything wrong, the other people have no reason to get mad a that person. And get mad at somebody just because somebody asked you to do it, means to be a bubble head. And those bubble heads that say yes to everything that N pastor says will pay consequenses someday for their depraved passivity, depraved indifference, lack of brain.
Hi Lupita
Your ex pastor sounds as though he was trying to turn the church into a cult, with everyone worshipping him more than they did God. This happens a lot, unfortunately. There are good resources for recovering from this type of abuse - Jeff van Vonderen has written a lot about it. I have to get ready for work, and I don't know what time zone you are in, but when I get home tonight I'll do a search and put some links up on the board for you.
Somebody else has recently been talking about this, so you might be able to find their thread. In fact, I think they also mentioned Rev. van Vonderen on their thread.
I'll look for that thread and that's where I'll put any new links I find.
Is this private school you teach at a religious school, and is the church you were attending connected to the school in any way? I think you said something about your boss telling you where to go to church, but I may not be remembering correctly.
God be with you through this day, Lupita.
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Hi Lupita and Storm,
I did a thread posting on Spiritual Abuse
as that was my experience at my first church
The pastor was controlling and manipulative
worked on getting folk to follow and worship him - not God.
And heaven help those who spoke up - myself included.
Leah
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=4084.msg64528#msg64528 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=4084.msg64528#msg64528) Spiritual Abuse
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Wow .... Storm,
Do hope you don't mind my posting this, but you mentioned you had to go to work etc.
and as I had not heard of Rev Jeff van Vonderen ..... I did a 'google' search and found that
Jeff van Vonderan has a recovery site for spiritual abuse http://www.spiritualabuse.com/index.shtml (http://www.spiritualabuse.com/index.shtml)
"Spiritual abuse occurs when someone in a position of spiritual authority, the purpose of which is to 'come underneath' and serve, build, equip and make God's people MORE free, misuses that authority placing themselves over God's people to control, coerce or manipulate them for seemingly Godly purposes which are really their own."
You know, I have always maintained that Spiritual Abuse is a gross abuse of trust.
Looking back to that first church experience .... I most likely had post trauma stress after leaving.
My now xNh did not want to leave!! Still thinks it was kind of ok!! No surprise really.
Leah x
"In Romans 12:2 Paul says, 'Do not be conformed but be transformed. . .'. In a performance-based church or family, that verse might be applied like this: 'Our church or leader is right; we have a truer, purer 'word' from God than others. Therefore, we must adhere to our formula or brand of Christianity as hard and fast as possibleso we won't become like those out there who don't think as we do. If I do not live up to all I've been taught here, I will be letting God down.' This orientation squeezes people from the outside in. They are not transformed, they are conformed."
from the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
http://www.spiritualabuse.com/index.shtml (http://www.spiritualabuse.com/index.shtml)
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Thank you Storm and Lea. Dear Storm, I did not find the post you were talking about. Thank you.
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Hi Lupita
I didn't find it either - but Leah has found the thread I was thinking of, in fact she started it [thanks, Leah! :-) ].
I don't know why I thought Rev. Van V. was mentioned there - but now there's a link to his site here.
Leah, thanks so much. I was concerned about having to leave before I could find and post some links, and I forgot I'd be away after work and not get home until late. Thanks so much for stepping in!
Lupita, I found another spiritual recovery site, this one also Christian. They have a forum, and it is apparently moderated quite intensely. This link will take you to the page with the forum rules.
http://www.christiansurvivors.com/rules.html
I didn't spend a lot of time on the forum itself - I wanted to post here as soon as I could. But there are links to forums for people all over the world, there.
I hope this helps. Lupita, do tell us how your day went, when you can.
(((Lupita))) (((Leah)))
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I am glad to hear about the book Controlling People. I am ordering a copy and am anxious to read it. How interesting that the same author wrote a book on Verbal Abuse. They do go well together.
I will check out Patricia Evans' website. Thanks for letting me know.
I was once in a church where the pastor and pastor's wife couldn't handle even a sincere question. He delighted in calling himself Dr. Ryan, even offered free counciling to women in our domestic abuse shelter. Turned out his degree was in architecture . . .
He was counciling the women to do their hair, buy a new dress, fix their husband's favorite meal, and seduce him and all their problems would be over.
He also told us that we should all be on our knees thanking God that a man like Pat Robertson was running for president. And brought the winner of the Young Republican speaking contest in one morning to repeat his speech rather than do the usual sermon.
He also used to pass petitions around during church for us to sign. One was in protest of the movie, The Passion of the Christ. When I refused to sign it, having not seen the movie or read the book, I was ostracized.
Thanks again for your post.
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Upon reading where this thread is leading, I realize I forgot to mention that the book has a section in it which deals with the issue of control within religion. (and/or cults)
Quite a bit about it actually through-out. Interesting, as it is usually quite a taboo subject usually. The whole book just blew me away.
Peace to all,
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Hi Besee and Welcome :)
The Teddy Bear treatment analogy sure does hit the mark!
I could relate with the to someone quite recently - startling how they select you for friendship then try to mold you into their controlled form and ideal of what in essence, they want to be.
Glad you have joined us.
Warm thought and wishes,
Leah
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Besee & Leah,
I can't get my book out for references right now or my controller will see it and freak out, so I can't get exact quotes at the moment (I would like to just post the entire book) but I love the way she put the way THEY have made up you as a pretend person! Or their "dream girl" (for husband/wife situations). That really spelled it out for me in a way I could gain a really helpful outlook and perspective.
Don't you love her one-sided conversation example that takes place between the controller and their Teddy? Eerie how familiar that felt!
CB,
I am doing quite well---thanks so much for asking! I have missed you! Haven't been on the board too much myself, I have been reading and had server problems.
I am catching up a bit now, and haven't read your posts yet either, I am excited to hear about what's going on today!
Namaste & Love,
Sunny
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Sunny, Thanks for the topic! Leah, Thanks for your warm welcome! Some other thoughts from the book that really struck me are
Besee wrote:
Sunny, Thanks for the topic! Leah, Thanks for your warm welcome! Some other thoughts from the book that really struck me are
"The person who has defined your experience seems to have failed to grasp that you are a person with your own reality."
"People disconnect from us the moment they begin to define us. They begin to connect with us when they define themselves to us or ask us about ourselves."
"Even when you don't believe another person's definition of you, their disregard of your individuality can disturb your well-being."
"Countering prevents relationships. Countering is verbal opposition that negates the other's opinions, feelings and beliefs."
". . . but the ability and freedom to define oneself and to see the other as pretending protects one from negating his or her ture self."
Hi Besee,
"Countering prevents relationships. Countering is verbal opposition that negates the other's opinions, feelings and beliefs."
Countering is a most cruel crazymaking form of abuse ........ I think it robs you of your identity, then you fall prey to the other forms of abuse - open wounded for the attack.
Patricia Evans in Verbally Abusive Relationships (I have a copy) ......
"the countering of your ideas, feelings, and perceptions, even going so far as to refute what he misconstrues you to have said."
the experience is enough to have you climbing the wall and back down again!
Up until searching on the internet 3 years ago ..... never knew the abuse labels .... just the experience!
Verbal abuse occurs in all relationships, including family and friends .... wonderful !! I abhor each and every one of the categories having experienced them for a lifetime really.
According to Evans, a verbal abuser is an insecure person and immature person who is looking for power and control over another.
In order to help you recognize abuse, remember that all forms of verbal abuse are methods of manipulating you for the purpose of establishing power over you. The following are some of the forms of verbal abuse the author helps you recognize.
1. Withholding: a purposeful silent treatment.
2. Countering: a countering of your ideas, feelings, and perceptions, even going so far as to refute what he misconstrues you to have said.
3. Discounting--a putdown of you or something you hold dear.
4. Blocking and diverting--this is a sneaky, covert way of violating your dignity.
5. Accusation and blame: generally involves lies about the partner's intentions, attitudes, and motives. The author states that accusation and blame is present in all verbally abusive relationships.
6. Judging and criticizing: lies about your personal qualities and performance.
7. Trivializing and undermining: abusive behavior which makes light of your work, your efforts, your interests, or your concerns. The abuser attempts to dilute meaning and value in your life. Undermining might occur when your partner laughs at you, for example, when you burn yourself cooking. It is also jokes at your expense. Undermining is occurring when you feel a "so-called joke" is mean rather than funny.
8. Name calling: no one has a right to call you degrading names. Name calling is verbal abuse.
9. Ordering: Telling you to do something, rather than asking, or making decisions for you or for the two of you without your input.
10. Forgetting and denial: the trickiest form of denial is forgetting. Become aware that forgetting is a form of denial that shifts all responsibility from the abuser to some "weakness of mind."
11. Abusive anger: this seems to be closely linked to the need to "blow up," to dominate, to control, to go one up, and to put down. Any time you are snapped at or yelled at, you are being abused.
12. Threatening: Physical threats and sexual threats aside, verbal threats are an effort at manipulation. For example, a threat to leave, stay out all night, or take you home immediately is a manipulation for power. The threat of "pending disaster" is designed to shatter the partner's serenity as well as her boundaries.
If you counter the abuser or attempt to explain yourself, you will probably be met with such statements as, "You're going into one of your tirades again," or "You're much too sensitive," or "You're just trying to start a fight" or "You don't have a sense of humor."
Three years ago now, I purchased Patricia Evan's book " The Verbally Abusive Relationship " and could not believe the validation leaping out at me from each page. Labels at last.
Leah
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Well ((( Sunny ))) and ((( Besee )))
What with the Teddy bear analogy and your quotes from the book
I am going to obtain a copy.
Leah
"By Countering someone, the Verbal Abuser is saying ....... I can think for both of us.
What you think is wrong. What I think is right."
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An abusive person will ..... Railroad discussions
so that you don't have time to think about what's right and what's wrong in their behavior.
Haven't the foggiest where I sourced that from, but boy it sure did resonate!
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Thanks Leah, I don't currently have a copy of the Verbally Abusive Relationship. I read it a few years ago and the Reality I and Reality II concept she presented opened my eyes. I was so confused and didn't understand the other person's abusive behavior. When I was thinking the best of the her and trying to work things out, I was always caught off guard by her verbal attacks. I was using "I" statements, nonviolent communication,owning my own feelings, staying on my side of the street, etc. and to no avail. It's amazing now, but I was so naive and couldn't understand it , but it still hurt. I blamed myself. When I put the other Reality filter on that she was coming from a place of "power over" then her behavior made sense.
Oh Besee, me too. Looking back, the not knowing of 'why' the verbal abuser was engaging as such, was most confusing. The not knowing and not having a label ..... created immense difficulty in trying to explain to someone what was going on. So it was like a real circle ..... with no end in sight.
Her we are now, and at last we have some answers and as with any learning, it's lifelong along our path way in life.
Our sanctity now is being equipped and wanting to grow stronger with all that we have learned and will go on to learn.
Warm wishes and blessings.
Leah
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Hi Besee,
If it's not too much hassle, could you explain what the best responses are when you realize someone is very controlling?
IOW, if you are in relationship with them, and that sort of dialogue is happening a lot...what are the healthiest ways to respond?
(I should not be lazy and go get the book.)
thanks,
Hops
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Thank you, Besee.
That was very vivid.
And yikers.
I'd like to arm your heart chakra with the castoff ballgown of a Galapagos tortoise.
Err...probably didn't sound like it, but that's a good thing. :)
Thanks again,
Hops
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Sorry to keep this trivial thread alive as it seems obvious most here are embroiled in some controversy, of which I will steer clear....
BUT I did want to say thanks for all of your support!
I really care about each and every one of you guys---I hope things will work out!
((((((((Everyone)))))))))))
Namaste,
Sunny
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Sunny,
This isnt trivial. This is what we are here to do. Thanks for keeping it going.
CB
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Hi everyone,
Just reading through threads.......... when I met XN I was reading this book. On an intellectual level I related it to him but on an emotional level I went straight into denial........... need to read it again.
axa