Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: surf14 on March 17, 2004, 11:34:12 AM
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HI Sally, I postd this on the end of "Just learn to Cope" but was not sure you'd see it so have brought it foreward here. And please for anyone else who has gone through the process of disengaging from an N parent who cannot learn to be supportive and civil. (Thanks JacMac for your response, it helped alot)
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 29
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:12 pm Post subject:
HI Sally, thanks so much for your post. I have ordered the book and am waiting for it to arrive. I was wondering; after you decided to release your mother from your life did you have to struggle with the negative shaming voices that you must have heard in your head that you probably felt your mother was directing at you? How did you manage your guilt on "abandoning her" which is how she must have viewed your distancing? Or were you past feeling guilt because of the vile nature of your mothers actions? The mother-daughter relationship is so fraught with emotional entanglement its just hard to imagine getting to the point of letting her go but I am getting close. Thanks for your response . Surf
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Hi Surf - I had always been afraid of guilt rushing in when the time came for one or both of my parents to die.
When I realised that my father was dying, I had to 'think fast' about how I was going to handle it. And I came up (quite naturally!) with this :
"I have honoured my parents by 'getting out from under' and living the best life I can."
I truly believe that and, as it turned out, my father never recriminated with me - he was just glad to see me again and I had the feeling that (for him) there was nothing to 'forgive' anyway.
My mother, on the other hand, had a field day and continues to put as much pressure to bear as possible ie she constantly does everything she can to make me feel guilty about decisions I have made in the past and decisions I make now. (It was only in writing this that I finally cottoned on that when she 'goes on' about the past, she is trying to make me feel guilty - I can be so thick sometimes!!! I still find it difficult to find words for 'what she does'.)
So the risk is that, if you go, these N parents will bring much greater pressure on you and do everything they can to 'bring you to heel'. So you need to know that you are strong enough and ready for the onslaught before you try. Flo's idea about being 'scientific' and putting them under the microscope, watching their attempts to use emotional blackmail on you and provoke guilt is probably a good one here.
R
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Thanks so much Rosencrantz; you are very courageous and I think that is what it takes to brace against the onslought one knows is coming. In a sense though I think it is like finally GROWING UP. Its the last frontier to being an integrated adult. Mahalos
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Hi Surf: Interesting question about my mother's response because it made me look at what is going on with my feelings of walking away from my N ex-husband for good.
My mother didn't make any move to attack me, reject me, try and change my mind or appease me in any way. After my letter to her there was just silence. She continues to send gifts at Christmas and my birthday (but sends them to me with the wrong last name!! can you imagine...when I married I wrote a short note to let her know I'd marriedl My married name was Jones..she sent gifts to me in the name of Smith! Like 'Smith/Jones, what difference does it make??' My UPS driver thought it soooooooo weird.!)
And, by the way her way of displaying her love to my sister and I was always by giving us gifts. Like a gift would make up for all of the mental and physical abuse!!!)
The gifts now are usually clothes in size small..I am size 16 now at 60 years of age and 5'7"....a small never would have fit, even when I was a size 10. But, I was always fat in her mind and so was anyone who carried even as much as five extra pounds on their body. In fact, if you carried the five pounds you really weren't really a person who had any value in the world. It won't suprise you to learn that my mother and sister are both anorexic. So, even though there is no communication, she continues to send little digs at me.
One interesting aspect is that I felt nothing about walking away from her, except maybe relief. Her abuse of me throughout my life was so leathal, so sick that I felt like a bird who had finally received wings. I still feel nothing about her.
One therapist once asked what would I do if she died? Thought that was an interesting question, but I said I would not attend the funeral. She suggested it might be a better idea to go to let her know how I feel about her. As the therapist said, you could finally tell her without worrying about what her response would be. So, I have a working plan, since she is in her late 80's and can't go on forever. But I also know that I will not stay to listen to people tell me how sad they are about her death, or how sad it must be for me. Everyone knew how sick my mother was and knew what she was doing to my sister and I. As far as I am concerned those people who stood by and did nothing to try and help my sister and I are just as guilty as she was/is.
But back to the main topic. Sometimes I wonder if I simply transferred my sick need to be injured by a narcissist from my mother to my ex who has been in my life for over twenty years. What I think is so interesting is that the greatest pain I have experienced from him always happens when I have left him. When I leave, he does nothing. Nothing. No call, no letter, no attempt whatsoever to appease me, bring me back. Just nothing. It's as if I never existed, as if we never were a part of each other's lives.
That part has always been so painful for me, that I would usually be the one to make contact with him, telling him how sorry I was for walking away. He would gladly accept my apology, cause, of course it was all my fault anyway.
I am in that painful place of feeling as if I don't and never have existed again as far as he is concerned. And, for me that is the hard part. I can't help but wonder why it never hurt with my mother, but it hurts so much with him. All I know is this time I will not go back. This time I know it isn't my fault, it is actually his fault (if there is any fault, and I'm not so sure there is.) I just think we were both really sick people, continuing a dance that began somewhere in our child hood.
Having just learned about narcissism I have a much better understanding about what has been going on in my life. The knowing has taken away a great deal of pain.How will I hold on and stay strong? Not sure. Struggling. Eating seems to be my comfort (does that surprise anyone?). But, if that's what it takes to stay away, then bring on the food!!!!!!!
Hope I answered some of your questions surf. Please don't hesitate to ask others, if you need or want to. It sounds as if you are also in a battle for your life. Sending you good thoughts and strength!! Sally
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Surf - I can't remember exactly how or why I finally 'never went back'.
I left in increments - lived with my mother's sister for a while while I was working near her, then moved into a house with some other girls (that was when the pressure started big time), then moved to Uni much further away. Went home during vacations and found work but then started finding jobs near Uni instead. Found a job that required me to work over Christmas then got fully involved in my life away from home.
I didn't 'plan' it but I'm sure my subconscious knew more than I did!! I experienced so much verbal cruelty but I didn't know that's what it was - it was just 'me' being a terrible person all the time, never being able to get anything right, never getting approval, always trying harder. I felt so sick at home yet I continued to go back, doing what was expected, trying to be 'good'!!! That's so sad (in all senses!). I had no idea what my feelings were or what they were telling me.
My mother drove me round the bend. I remember I used to think she'd say black was white if it suited her. Compromise didn't exist in her vocabulary. And everything had to be kept secret. Oh, I was so loyal.
I tried to get help for her (for what I'd now describe as narcissistic rage or hysterical paddies or hissy fits but appeared to be nervous breakdowns - always afraid that she'd 'crack' if pushed too far by my attempts to establish truth or reality!!) - but it just led to further recriminations and the most astounding lies.
I didn't know they were lies - I'd think I'd forgotten what I said or what I'd written ie I'd think there was something wrong with my mind - what I recognised in the film Gaslight and now know to be called gaslighting). I was 19 for God's sake (cj, when you write, you take me back to how things were then. Younger than that - 14 perhaps 16 - I did once just 'not know' where I was, who I was, where I was going. I knocked on someone's door - they didn't know who I was either!! :wink: I have been so disciplined ever since - I NEVER let my guard down - I keep my mind in check ALL the time.)
One day (in my early 20s), in desperation, one time when I went home during a vacation and she was twisting and turning everything and driving me mad, I tried to phone the Samaritans. I managed to get through. I was sitting in a small room at the front of the house which wasn't used much. I only managed to make contact for an instant - my mother came in and broke the connection.
I put my head down on the stool in front of me. I cannot explain the noise I made - a very long aaaaaaaaagggghhhh of total anguish. I'll never forget.
And my mother twitched the net curtains and said 'What WILL the neighbours think'!
You gotta laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?
A few years later, when I lived abroad, she acquired a postal vote for me and voted in my name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I always siad I should've shopped her. I dearly wish I had now!!!
I think I was very 'adult' from a relatively young age, but my mother was not going to respect or nurture the adult part of me. She did everything she could to destroy it.
So I'd suggest it's not as 'simple' as being 'adult' or 'growing up' or 'becoming independent'.
Just wondering how it's different...you need to develop more mental stamina than the average person, stronger boundaries, knowledge, wisdom, competence, resilience - and very good FRIENDS! :wink:
R
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Sally - My turning point in relationships with men was once when I couldn't find anything to apologise for in order to get us back together again. Very disorientating!! I think you've cracked it!! :wink:
R
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HI Rozencrantz and Sally; thanks so much for your replies!
R- "I didn't 'plan' it but I'm sure my subconscious knew more than I did!! I experienced so much verbal cruelty but I didn't know that's what it was - it was just 'me' being a terrible person all the time, never being able to get anything right, never getting approval, always trying harder. I felt so sick at home yet I continued to go back, doing what was expected, trying to be 'good'!!! That's so sad (in all senses!). I had no idea what my feelings were or what they were telling me.
My mother drove me round the bend. I remember I used to think she'd say black was white if it suited her. Compromise didn't exist in her vocabulary. And everything had to be kept secret. Oh, I was so loyal. "
This is exactly how I felt stuck in the sick dynamic going on in my home growing up. You are writing my life and it was total futility. When I was 19 I had a chance to break away; I traveled to Hawaii with a boyfriend and that gave me some distance.
I have spent the remaining 30 years going thru an approach/avoidance dance based on my mother's behavior; mostly avoidance since the geographical distance has afforded me that and her behavior has caused nothing but misery since. I can relate so well to the description of feeling'sick' around her. The few times she has visited over the years were disasters (all my fault of course because ie I was unable to give her the total undivided time and attention she required when my daughter was 4 months old during one of the visits. Its always my fault!!) and caused me to feel like giving up. I always came away with an oodgy feeling like I had crossed the path of the devil or something. I always am left feeling like giving up because she leaves me no room at all to stand on; no respect at all. I'm sure you can relate.
I feel better these days about the fact that when she passes on I am not to blame for what never went right; I am finally stronger now about that because I know I have done everyhing I could to reconnect with her but I COULD NOT sanction her abuse, and this is what she requires. I feel very sad that I did not have a supportive and happy nurturing home with the support of a family of origin all these years but I was fortunate to have been 'adopted' as a teenager into my boyfriends home and am still close to that family despite geographical distance and despite not having married into the family. At least I was able to experience how an integrated family functions.
Sally; I'm so sorry for your struggle! Please, I hope you don't go back to to your XN. You deserve so much more. Its very hard tho to break the addiction and the enmeshment. I understand too well because that is what I have going thru with my Darth-Mom. Heck; I'd want to send those gifts laced with darts back to her. How unkind! :oops:
And yes Jacmac, sometimes one needs to know when to QUIT. I think that's where I am now since nothing has worked and I'm not going to suffer my mothers devaluation and abuse. Its been helpful getting other's perpectives who have been thru similar experiences; helps you not feel so responsible for the relationship failure. Thanks all!
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Rosencrantz and Surf: This discussion has helped a great deal today. Rosencrantz it was good to hear that I may have finally found the key...by not going back anymore to apologize...that part finally came clear to me learning about Narcissism. But ohhhhhhhh the pain. Recieved a notice about the car payment, forwarded by my xn today in the mail. No note, no goodby, no f....k you, nothing...just nothing. It is that nothingness that I can barely stand. Feel as if I can't breathe. So hard not to make a connection just to reasure myself that I exist. I know I have to make it past this point, but right now I feel like a deer in the headlights..immobile, unable to move, just breathing small breaths hoping this fear will end. It's just the worst.
And Surf, hope this is helping you some. Leaving the N takes tremendous courage and having the N be a parent throws in all sorts of other issues. I think you are going about this in just best way by taking your time and asking lots of questions. Hugs to both of you...Sally
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Sally - This is the toughest moment, I think, in understanding and dealing with the narcissist. The bit about 'not existing'.
You are right in one sense - That's exactly what it's all about. You DON'T exist - for a narcissist.
How can that possibly be to 'not exist' in someone else's eyes. It's truly beyond belief, beyond comprehension...
This is a time when you need to work really hard on getting and keeping your thoughts the right way round.
YOU exist. You exist for us here!! You exist for other people and you exist for YOU. It's your experience of his response to you that you are expressing.
Perhaps you feel you only exist if you exist in somebody else's eyes, if somebody else is 'seeing you'. Perhaps you feel that you need to be reflected in someone else's eyes to exist, that someone else has to reflect back to you who you are - ???
My H says - 'we differentiate by contrast' and I've found that useful. He had impenetrable boundaries which meant I didn't constantly 'lose' myself in him and I found out who I was by discovering in what ways I was different to him.
I'm sending you 'stay strong' vibes!!! :wink:
R
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Rosencrantz: Bless you for your help today. And just responding to my pain helps to verify that I do exist in someone's eyes...but I am writing back because something you said triggered something...I remeber hearing, reading ??? that an infant knows it exists when it sees itself reflected back in the eyes of it's mother...in her expressions of love, joy, etc. Have any thoughts on that?
Obviously I'm thinking lots about this today...is this the feeling I have been avoiding all along? This nothing feeling, the feeling I don't exist? When I look back on my family, I can be in touch with the feeling that I was "outside of the family dynamic"..an observer. My father doted on my older sister because my mother was so exceedinly brutal to her. Everyone thought I was my mother's favorite, but she was the total "sicky" in the family, so I got absolutely nothing from her. My sister was too busy surviving to pay any attention, and besides she hated me because she decided I was my mother's favorite. She still has a hard time understanding that what I got from our mother was just as cruel and painful as what she got...it just manifested in different ways.
What do you think? Sound like I'm on to something? Darn wish I could make that last piece fit. I know I've just got to hand on right now if I ever want to find that last piece. It has to be a product of staying right in this place of nothingness....Hugs. Sally
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One more thing, Rosencrantz...re-read the part where you said it is my experience of what he said that I am experiencing. ie...if he sends back nothing that acknowledges me; then I do not exist, because I do not exist if I cannot be what he wants and needs me to be? think I'm on the right track?
Now that would fit with my mother too. I did not exist in her eyes if I was not what she wanted me to be. I have thrown off everything, my ties to my social upbringing, the way that I look, the way that I act; my work against the status quo as a land-use activist which embarassed her, because she thought it would bring shame on her name?
It's the voicelessness, isn't it? Although I think its more than voicelessness; I think it's voicelessness as well as not being seen for what and who we are. A total denial of my voice and my being by my mother and also by my XN. I'm going to let that simmer for awhile. Thanks Rosencrantz, you may have just helped me up over the mountain! Hugs. Sally
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Sally, I was going to post exactly what you referenced...when we are infants we get a sense of being thru our mothers who reflect back to us lovingly that we are lovable and cared for. If this is not present that's when things get really convoluted. How can a baby get a sense of themselves when their primary caretaker does not mirror back to them that they are loved and adored and cared for for who they are?
As the child gets older and is taught that they only exist thru their mother, and for her purposes, this lack of self is reinforced. I'm wondering if at the beginning of your relationship with your X N if you had that sense of acheiving completeness of visibility thru him; something you hadn't been able to experience growing up. If so it must be very hard to let that go evne though this was an illusion.
Letting go of trying to get that need met thru him can be likened to an addiction, and that process is very hard at first. You understand addiction Sally, because you've been there; it will get easier as the days progress. Right now you're in the withdrawal phase. Remember that that sense of visibility you did not get from your primary caretaker, and that you thought you were getting from your ex, was an illusion. But you can get those needs met here and from friends who are nurturing and supportive. You're a neat person with alot to offer. You helped me quite a bit today. Hang tight! Surf
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Sally,
I loved your posts and can relate to a lot of what you said about your mother. I just wanted to let you know you're not alone in receiving the wrong size (TOO SMALL!) of clothing from her. I also have always received clothes that were WAY too small for me. It was my mother's way of telling me she wanted me to be thinner. My sister was also anorexic in high school, but I didn't follow suit. The ironic thing is, I am not overweight, but I am tall - five inches taller than my mom with a larger frame. I read somewhere that the N Mother wants her daughters to be exactly the same height, weight, etc. as they are :shock: . . . interesting. My bones were not as small as her - I could never win! :roll:
Hang in there and know that you're not alone. Those N Mothers were just brutal to us and I thank God we are aware of their schemes now.
I appreciate your posts!
Survivor
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Hi Sally - Something was niggling at the back of my mind as I wrote about 'existing only through the eyes of others' but I couldn't bring it to mind. Sorry!
As I read your new post, it seemed to me that there's a difference between not 'existing' for someone else and being invisible - ????? I could cope with being invisible cos then I just have to make myself visible, but if I don't exist, I can't!!!
Hmmm - I wonder if that 'existing in the eyes of others' thing reflects the Jungian (Myers/Briggs) definition of extraversion. Some of us need 'other people' to feel we exist. This isn't pathological or something to grow out of. It just 'is'. No people = a sense of annihilation. Dorothy Rowe is a good straightforward author on this.
Why Does He Do That by Bancroft has just arrived and i've been flicking through it. Highly recommended (in small doses only!!)
R
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Surf14: Surf your thinking just right on...wow...when you said you wondered if I had a sense of achieving viisibility through him, which I hadn't experienced growing up, is a really new idea...one that absolutely fits, maybe more than any concept about us in the last 20 years.
And, you know what? It feels right too. I think maybe that's exactly what held me to him with so much force. At times that draw to him felt primal in some way. Couldn't ever put my finger on what it was, or why it was so important. The pain, when I would leave always brought me to my knees, and then I would have to deal the fact that I had done it to myself, since I was the one who left. The leaving and the pain that followed it meant I was wrong and guilty, and, of course, that fit in perfectly with his narcissism.
When I would return, or we would meet again, I was always so sorry about what I had done, although in my heart it wasn't any action that I did to him I was apologizing for; it was the action I had done against myself. Pushing him away meant I no longer existed. It really fits.
And, of course, you are right, that the way to get that visibility from someone who won't harm me is through this board and my friends. I'm also reading "Trapped in the Mirror" like it is a textbook. I am now towards the end of the book where she talks about specific problems Adult Children of Narcissists have, and just like my ex was a textbook narcissist, I am a test book child of one. Heaven above, hope I can put this all together to have some peace in my life. Think I am going in the right direction.
So thankful for all of you on this board, for you wisdom and insight, and so appreciative of the way you have held my hand through these last couple of days. Many hugs. Sally
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Survivor: Gosh, I thought that trick of sending too small clothes was developed by my dear mother, guess not!! So sorry for you. It is such a mean thing to do, isn't it? Send a gift that you cannot possibly use! Oh, and we have one other strange custom in my family. Writing thank you notes. If one does not write a thank you note even to family members, then we also don't exist. It becomes a terrible trap. You don't exist if you are perceived as anything more than five pounds overweight, but if you are sent a size small that certainly won't fit; you are still expected to write a glowing thank you note about how much you loved it! That was just like harping on my weight/size all of the time and baking fresh batches of cookies each week that I shouldn't eat! AARRRGGHHH!!!!
So, my one stab at freedom with that whole issue was to not write a thank you note, so at least I wasn't lying, and then give the clothes to my best friend who really is a small. My friend loves it and can't wait for my birthday and Christmas !!
Like you Survivor, I also was the BIG GIRL in the family. I'm 5'7", my mother and sister are both just 5' probably 100lbs. wet! I also have large bones, and they have these little bitty bones...kind of like chicken wings. Oh well, I can never win. Sounds like you can't either!! So here's to us the big and beautiful members of those families!!! Hugs. Sally
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Rosencrantz: Interesting thought and especially interesting with Surf's comment's just above yours. I think that I actually felt both when he was not around and acting as if he couldn't care less. I think I felt both invisible and as if I didn't exist. But the feeling that came up yesterday was certainly non-existance.
And, I am definetly an introvert, not extrovert. Was made to act like an extrovert all my life which felt so false, and I would get so tired all of the time! It was so nice to know when I no longer had to play that game that I could get more sleep!!!
So, I think it is the non-existence, and if Surf's thought is right, which I think it probably is, I learned that, felt that as an infant with my mother. And, it would fit. The only reason I was born was so that my mother could try and keep my father from running off with the woman he was having an affair with (that affair went on for 30 years). My father divorced my mother and married his mistress five years before he died of brain cancer, I was in my mid 30's by then.
The thought of looking in to my mother's face, even as an adult, is a terrifying experience. She really looks evil. She has these blank eyes and fake smile, it sends chills down my back even today just to think about it. Imagine what it must have been like to look into her face as an infant and try to get some feeling of existing? She was definetly a woman who never should have had children.
Rosencrantz thanks for your posts and help these past couple of days. I'm feeling soooo much better today. Have hope. Just know I am going to get through this! Hugs. Sally
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Sally, Sayyy, I'm so glad you got back on the board tonight. I was kind of worried today and hoped you were OK. Am glad you are feeling better!
But I had to laugh at this: "So, my one stab at freedom with that whole issue was to not write a thank you note, so at least I wasn't lying, and then give the clothes to my best friend who really is a small. My friend loves it and can't wait for my birthday and Christmas !!
We have a thank you note issue in my family too; interesting how similar this is. You just simply have to write one everytime irregardless or you are just BAD. But your reference to rebelling by not writing to thank for the miss-sized clothes, and then giving them to your friend who can't wait for your birthday to arrive...ha ha :lol: :lol: . Good way to deal with this craziness!
Sounds like you're putting it all together now Sally with lightening speed. I'm very satisfied to hear this. Take care. Surf.
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Sally and Surf14,
:o WOW!!! I can't believe all of us have the same "Thank-You Note" history! I have a huge stack of assorted Thank-You cards in my house for having been brought up to do this. My daughters, who are now 21 and 18, also know this practice. It all came from my NMother . . . but do you think SHE ever sends one? Never! The crazy thing is, we never expected one from her for years, but knew we all had to send them! Not any more . . . we don't even speak to her now.
Sally . . . my sister and mother are both very small too (but I love my sister - we get along great). I always wondered why I was a "giant" and "big boned" girl. I'm 5'8" and shop at Layne "Giant" (Layne Bryant) as my mom would call it! The funny thing is, my daughters are 6'1" and 5'11" and my mom has never said anything to either of them. Ironically, they LOVE being so tall since they were not raised by her. I like being tall now too.
Thanks for the laughs : :lol: :lol: . . . I feel like I've finally found my "home" where I can relate . . . thanks so much!
Survivor
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Sally,
I have been reading a great book* that addressed my own sense of invisibility. It says people typically act either like their parents or opposite them or (and this is the one that I'd never considered) treat themselves like their parents treated them. Our mothers treated us as invisible in a sense so it is logical we treat ourselves the same way. The freeing thing is that we can repattern this!
On the size issue, my mother and I are the same size but she always wanted clothes from me. I'm 41 and she still wears my clothes I discarded decades ago. Super creepy based on the posts in reply to yours!
Take care. It sounds like you are making great progress!
Christy
* The book is Where Freedom Begins and is excellent for working out parental issues. It was recommended by a Sister of Mercy who used to do week long workshops with it.
Here's a link: http://www.bestwebbuys.com/books/compare/isbn/0914728792/isrc/b-home-search
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Boy survivor: How funny that your family has this issue too!!!! Maybe this might turn out to be univeral amongst N's and a way to spot them cold. :lol: :lol: :lol: Surf
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This has been such fun reading!! Sometimes when I'm thinking of ways to zing my mother (always just fantasy, but fun) I think of little notes I would like to write to her. Would be fun to write one telling her an interesting study about to begin that links narcissism with an obsession for thank you notes!!
You all, I am doing soooooooo well today!! Just can't believe how well I am doing. But I think it's because I kept looking all of these twenty years for the missing link. I couldn't understand why I kept accepting my exN into my life. Just finally figured the whole situation was hopeless, I was doomed to dance the rest of my life with him in horrible pain.
But learning about the narcissism has completely answered all of the questions that kept haunting me. I've worked so hard to get over this guy that by the time I got to the narcissism issue, there was nothing else left to consider. And, I knew so much about him by then that the minute I looked at the narcissistic characteristics I could see him in bold letters. Like a lightening bolt!!
So, I am doing well, but it has taken my sooooooo long and sooooooo much work to get here. And the support I got from this board during the difficult days was what helped the most. Thanks so much again!!
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Sounds really good Sally. I'm glad that getting more information has been so freeing. sounds liek there'sno going back now. Aloha Surf
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I can relate to that, Sally!
IF my father hadn't died, I wouldn't have had to come up against my mother so intimately again. Every day I'd hear how she was managing her life, how she reacted to people, what her priorities were - I'd both be incredulous about what she was doing AND find excuses for her (AND give MYSELF 'Fail' grades - yet what I was doing was 'merely' defining her personality accurately!!). And I nearly drowned in what she was doing to me.
But then when the articles on narcissism arrived in my inbox one day, and when I finally got round to reading them! - there it all was! Or rather, there SHE was!! I can still remember : it was (as the phrase goes) as if time stood still!!! I may even have stopped breathing. My eyes couldn't have got wider!!!!! (I think I remembered to shut my mouth!!) :wink:
Knowing someone as their daughter isn't always the same as knowing someone as an equal adult. And that's something my father's death gave me an opportunity to do.
I haven't always absolutely 100% of the time been glad about the discovery and how it came about - especially as it still meant losing out on a relationship (for me AND my son) with my father, but oh gosh, YES - the pain of not knowing would always have been much bigger than the pain of knowing!!!
The past now makes sense (and so do I!!) and the future must surely open out in a better way as a result. Even if all I can do is make sure my son understands what it's all about.
But I still don't feel 'fit for human scrutiny' yet. I feel very nervous about being amongst other people. I live somewhere where I hadn't made friends before this happened and I've moved into such a different place in my head that I wouldn't know where to begin with old friends I've left behind. And I'm too 'different' (wobbly?) right now to be the person they knew.
The world is suddenly a different place and I don't know where I fit in any more!!!! I found this Board (lifesaver) but where do I reconnect with the outside world??? :shock: And can I trust myself in the outside world anyway - not to get sucked in and spat out again as part of somebody else's dish of the day!! And if it's to be on MY terms only, can there ever be 'friendship' again???! :?
I have such intimacy here with people who are 'strangers'; and then I see familiar faces around me with whom I have nothing in common and no point of reference...
As the saying goes : 'I need to get out more'!!! :wink: But we definitely need an ACON movement here in the UK!!!!!
R
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Dear R,
I have only recently arrived here (both to the forum and acknowledgment of my ACON status) but I must say your posts are filled with wisdom and caring. Based on what I've read, I would gladly be your "real" friend although I guess the ocean precludes that at the moment. ;)
I know that feeling of not wanting to come out of the cave and take your show on the road but you are laying the groundwork for that eventual day. To worry about it now is getting ahead of yourself, I think. When you are "ready", you will know it and there will be as much excitement and anticipation as anxiety. Since most of us spent many years either hiding who we were or oblivious to it, it takes some time to excavate those tender inner selves. I myself feel a great sense of urgency to "get on with it"!
In the mean time, let's all practice the kindness and gentleness with ourselves that we wish to receive from others! :)
P.S. To all-please pardon my previous post on this thread--I didn't see there was a second page of posts (a newbie move!) and thus jumped in at a weird time.
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Rosencrantz: I felt so relieved to hear that your understanding of narcissism came to you with the same thunder bolt as it did me. I've been so relieved to have an answer, that I don't want to spend a whole lot of time worrying about why I didn't know before, but it has bothered me some.
I've had over twenty years of one on one therapy, group therapy, treatment center for three months, just about every twelve step program for 15 years, and no where did the subject of narcissism come up. Ever! And yet both my mother and the man who caused so much pain in my life obviously are narcissits and I have all of the characteristics of ACON.
I just don't understand how nobody even mentioned it to me. Do you have any ideas about that, since your discovery was your own as well?
Your comments about hesitation meeting new people, and feeling so different was really interesting. I am very much an introvert (someone who gathers strength from being alone) and find that the heathier I get (psychologically) the more comfortable I am with being alone. And, I really love to be alone. I like people and have a few friends I really enjoy being around, but other than that, I am really happy to be by myself. I've often wondered if that hasn't been the result of being around such insane people all of my life!!
It does feel all new, though, doesn't it? It's like night and day for me. How long ago did you learn the truth about your mother? Hugs. Sally
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YOU exist. You exist for us here!! You exist for other people and you exist for YOU. It's your experience of his response to you that you are expressing.
( R )
and its really important to get some affirming supportive people in your life, clear all the negative people out I've found, or it's impossible for me to maintain my fragmented self-worth.
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Hi Rosencrantz,
I’ve been thinking about you a lot today. There’s a woman in my belly dance class who reminds me of you: she’s confident (as you are in your writing), she’s bold (she has her own lavish belly dance outfit and wears it with pride), and she’s open (as you are with your experiences). She is, in a lot of ways, how I imagine you to be in real life, and she brings life and spirit to the class, as you do to this board. :)
The world is suddenly a different place and I don't know where I fit in any more!!!! I found this Board (lifesaver) but where do I reconnect with the outside world??? And can I trust myself in the outside world anyway - not to get sucked in and spat out again as part of somebody else's dish of the day!! And if it's to be on MY terms only, can there ever be 'friendship' again???!
This really struck me and reminded me of how I often feel as I nudge myself out into the world. I feel that my true identity was locked away in closet and forgotten about for years and is only now seeing the light of day again – little by little. It’s scary, but very rewarding. I was wondering if you also felt that the ‘real’ you is going out into the world, or if you feel that this is a ‘new’ you?
One of the things that N’s force us to do is live in extremes – either we’re giving ourselves wholly to them, or we’re fiercely defending ourselves – at all costs. I think that with most people, though, it’s possible to have a friendship that respects each person’s boundaries without having to be on either person’s terms.
And on a lighter note, I had to laugh (and groan) when I read this in one of your earlier postings on this thread:
One day (in my early 20s), in desperation, one time when I went home during a vacation and she was twisting and turning everything and driving me mad, I tried to phone the Samaritans. I managed to get through. I was sitting in a small room at the front of the house which wasn't used much. I only managed to make contact for an instant - my mother came in and broke the connection.
I put my head down on the stool in front of me. I cannot explain the noise I made - a very long aaaaaaaaagggghhhh of total anguish. I'll never forget.
And my mother twitched the net curtains and said 'What WILL the neighbours think'!
You gotta laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?
This reminded me of the first scene in "Harold and Maude" in which the incredibly N mom gets exasperated with her son as he stages a suicide in front of her (it’s a black comedy). He’s hanging from a rope while she makes arrangements with her hairdresser, and as she leaves the room, she asks him to 'try to be a little more vivacious’ for dinner. :roll: :lol:
Wildflower
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Hi Guys - it's been quite tough coming back into this thread after all that but - hey! thanks!!!
I find it very difficult to be 'seen' to get warm and up close with other people on an individual basis because there's always someone over my shoulder about to get jealous and paranoid and destructive so it's easier to treat everyone the same and at a distance. So replying is a bit of a struggle right now.
Wildflower - LOL - Thanks Wildflower - yes, that's how I USED to be!! I feel too fragile to even attempt to be that person right now!!!
clj_writes - Thank you!! And thank you for the thoughtful advice about taking time. I guess in many ways I'm practising here for real life later.
And yet there's nothing 'real life' about this experiencee - we each offer ourselves up for scrutiny to each other in a raw way that doesn't happen in real life and we get time to reflect and see each other intereact with others. Honestly, I'm a wreck in real life right now - I feel that you could 'knock me over with a feather'!! Maybe there is an issue that I need to get physically stronger first - go for walks. But so much energy is taken up in dealing with the day to day stuff, my mother's finances, the solicitors, and my own internetty business.
When I spoke to the Social Services and they said they were closing the case on my mother, I just fell over this precipice, scrabbling to hang on, babbling to keep them on the line while I tried to re-compose myself so I could say what was needed to be said (mature, wise, together) rather than sounding like I was the one who needed help. Even if I was!!!!! I haven't done that in decades.
Just one little push and I'm over the precipice!!! Abandoned. Lost forever, and unable to look after myself in the big, bad world. Cheesh!
All my experiences right now are of me backing away, losing my foothold. I've spent my life pushing myself to live a half way fulfilling life in spite of my fears - and now (in spite of the fact that now I have the knowledge of what it's all been about) I feel broken - I have lost my confidence even to try. Now I KNOW it's a mean, bad world out there. :wink: Anybody got any superglue, please???
On the other hand, as you said, our real selves...but I don't want to be this twitchy, nervous person. My father's sisters were all twitchy, nervous people, too. So had my father been, I discovered in his final days. I wouldn't be at all surprised if HE wasn't an ACON, too!!! He was a GOOD man and deserved better. (Just stamped my foot then!!)
Difficult not to be a twitchy, nervous person at heart, I suppose, with the twists and turns of an Nmother - however loving she intended to be. I can almost hear the words 'Why me?' creeping up on me.
Anyway, that's where I am and I can't change it right now - tho I can give the odd :wink:
R
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Hi Rozencrantz;
I've hesitated to respond on this thread to you because I've been at a loss as to how to say this; bit here goes. Basically the personage that you present here on the forum is one who is strong, capable, and highly intelliagent. You are the last person I would have suspected of having feelings of 'not feeling fit' or having difficulties with relationships! Maybe you are going through a down period now with too much stress but how you present is very discordant with how you describe yourself.
Acons do have relationship issues, but who doesn't? Its Ok to feel 'twitchy'; that's how it is right now but it won't be that way forever. Feeling like someone is waiting with jealosy on the sidelines waiting to chew you up and spit you out...that's the ghost of your mother and her behavior that she modeled while raising you. Its hard to trust but important to sort out how much is the ghost of the past from what is really going on now in the present moment.
You're fantastic R; very strong and compassionate. Hope you have a grat day! :D Surf
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Hi everyone,
Just reading and joining this whole thread. As for the thank you note thing, here is one I would like to write based on a true experience:
Dear N,
Thank you so much for the very personal birthday present. How did you know we needed a new toilet seat? I apologize for your hurt feelings that I have not acknowledged this sooner, but I want to assure you that all of us here remember your generosity and think of you every time we use it. Love, ACON
:shock:
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P.S. to Rosencrantz,
Sounds like a bit of rough going right now. I think I read that you are familiar with the Four Agreements book. Between your posts and everyone's (and my) reassurances that you are strong, remember that one part that says "Always do your best. Your best will change from moment to moment...under different circumstances, etc." Was thinking of this while reading your posts and replies. Take care.
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Thanks!! I'm really quite stunned by all this support.
Of course, surf14, what you don't know - and what I hadn't quite connected - is that I AM experiencing that kind of undermining here on the board via pm. Someone here has decided that I don't respond sufficiently personally or frequently to her posts and seeks to define what my 'problem' is.
When I say that I do not see my 'self' reflected in her definition, she tells me that I must have a motivation for 'ignoring' her which is unconscious to me. Unfortunately, I rose to the bait and gave her a rather fuller account of myself and then requested that we not continue with the pms. I received a vitriolic pm back informing me I should be in therapy. Cheesh!
Of course, now I'm avoiding her like the plague! I don't read her posts AT ALL! So she has successfully created the situation that she feared in the first place. In fact, I had, prior to that, chosen indifference to her, seeking to live and let live, as I had a pretty good idea that her response would be extremely hostile if I ever chose to give her the honest feedback that I share with others on the board. And so it was!!
She seems to think that she has a right to nurturing from others and, whilst anyone has a right to ask, she does not see that other adults have a choice. It is a particularly 'poor show' to demand nurturing (or was she seeking a patronising 'there, there') from other ACONs when we have been manipulated throughout our lives to sacrifice ourselves for others.
She had a right to nurturing from her mother - and she is right to rage against that. But I am not that mother and neither is any other woman - and I choose 'not' to take her place and be required to nurture. I have a right to choose 'not' without being vilified and undermined. Just as I have a right to choose not to be my mother's parent without being raged against and threatened and manipulated.
Your validation has been very helpful in that it reminded me that I am not the person I am being defined as 'behind the scenes'. I 'almost' hid myself away to keep it secret. But then I remembered just in time that's what I've done for years with the abuse I received at the hands of my mother. I will no longer hide in shame in order to protect others from knowing they have abused me and thus spare them THEIR shame (not that these people seem to feel shame, they just hop off into blaming instead).
Your validation was so unexpected and appropriate to the pain and confusion I was experiencing that for a while I thought it was a 'fix' LOL (although I couldn't imagine how!) It seems, on the contrary, that at long last, I'm not quite sure how, I have found a way to 'ask and receive'. After a lifetime of being 'strong' for others and never knowing how to find a response for myself in times of need, well, I'm (almost) struck dumb!!! :wink:
Thank you
R
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Hurrah, R!! Glad to hear your voice and confidence are back! These signs of health are very heartening. :)
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HI Rozencrantz;
You really have defined the issue well when you said: "She seems to think that she has a right to nurturing from others and, whilst anyone has a right to ask, she does not see that other adults have a choice. It is a particularly 'poor show' to demand nurturing (or was she seeking a patronising 'there, there') from other ACONs when we have been manipulated throughout our lives to sacrifice ourselves for others.
I wouldn't take too seriously an off-the-cuff negative interaction like you describe. Number one, you are strong and speak your truth and experience insightfully. At times I think people envy strength and want a piece of it for themselves. You are very right, nurturing should not be demanded and actually demanding it smacks of narcissism.
Number two: this truly is the other person's problem because it is her need for something from you that is resulting in inappropriate behavior; this is coming from the wounds this person has suffered but she has not learned how to handle her emotion, her need or her anger in healthy ways. She is not taking responsibilty and is actually projecting her need for therapy on to you.
Thirdly: this is a public forum board which many people access and some bizarre or crazy interactions or challanges are to be expected from time to time. Its unfortunate but pretty much the norm where participants aren't screened and everyone has access.
Again, you have given some of the most thoughtful and sensitive feedback here and your help is invaluable. I look foreward to reading your future posts. Aloha Surf
:D
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I see the gifting of clothing in small--when the receiver is, obviously, a large--as nothing more than covert hostility.
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I see the gifting of clothing in small--when the receiver is, obviously, a large--as nothing more than covert hostility.
What's covert about it?
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Rosencrantz: Just wanted to add my support to the other support you have received. Even though I have only been here a short time, it is obvious what a large and wonderful contribution you make to the group.
And, it is true, that there are some nut cases lurking around internet boards. The hostility they throw out at people is so unnecessary, especially when, if they don't like something someone is saying, they don't have to read it, or they can leave the web site!
Glad you let everyone know what was going on and for not silently being offended. Thanks for all of the help you have already given to me. Hugs. Sally
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Offended?
Offended!!!!!?
What a wonderful word. I look back at my post and - yes - I sound offended!!!
Part of that redefining myself in relation to my mother : she 'offends' me!! (Gosh, is that all!!?)
But it's not about 'taking too seriously' something someone else said. (A blanket to caress me which also smothers me and muffles my voice. :wink: )
It's about the energy it takes to keep on track, to know who 'I' am, to not be defined by someone else and retain my perspective. The energy to stay strong and not crumble - mentally, emotionally. The energy to know what's right and avoid getting sucked into the void of someone else's need or the maelstrom of titfertat rage. The energy to choose the right path to go down in responding (or not). The energy to cope with the shame of being attacked. And then the exhaustion...the not being sure...the uncertainty...the (self-)blame....the 'should I have', the 'could I have'...
Because I am ashamed that someone else felt shame because of me!!!!!
It doesn't matter that they brought it on themselves. No explanations or justifications matter. I failed simply by being 'me', by existing as 'who I am'.
And HERE is the eye of the storm, here is the source of all MY particular personal enduring pain.
R
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Hi Rosencrantz,
I’m sorry I haven’t been replying to your other posts, but I’ve been reading them and thinking about them, and I’m so glad you expressed what was going on behind the scenes. Really, as if we need more people attacking us in our lives. :shock: :x
But I had a strong reaction to your last post and I wanted to share my own struggles with this problem:
Rosencrantz: The energy to cope with the shame of being attacked. And then the exhaustion...the not being sure...the uncertainty...the (self-)blame....the 'should I have', the 'could I have'...
One of the most difficult hurdles for me to overcome was belief in what was real, in what really happened. I felt all these strange things, and I intuitively knew that so much was wrong, but reality slipped through my fingers every time I was challenged by either of my parents to defend myself (WHY was I being asked to defend myself all the time??).
In another posting I talked about having some fact to hold on to. I’d further qualify that by saying something undeniable, something in the present and less clouded by the confusion of childhood. With my dad, it was being told I was “a loveless child from the beginning.” This was such a ridiculous statement that was so obviously intended to hurt me, blame me, let me know how I’d let him down… When reality starts shifting in his presence, I remember this statement and reality snaps back into focus: my father is a sick, wounded animal. Ignore his barking and get yourself to safety.
As you’ve seen, my dealings with my mother have been much more difficult because I’m so much more emotionally attached to (embedded in?) her. Here’s where my shame has been eating me day by day for years. My therapist has been trying, little by little, to help me understand that I’m not a horrible monster who deserved (nay demanded) all the abuse I received. (Abuse???? I was abused???? :shock: ) But I didn’t believe it. I had a massive database of all the failures in my life, all my failed relationships, all the times I had wounded my parents. And I had all their explanations in my head for why it was my fault (lucky them that they don’t even need to remind me how it’s all my fault anymore, though they do).
But last week I discovered a fact about my mother. She doesn’t ‘get’ how hard people have worked to build their lives and pull themselves out of their pain and confusion (or even how much work it is just to live normally, without a history of abuse). And she didn’t ‘get’ how much work it takes to be a parent – and that the parent has to put his/her needs aside to address those of the child. Now I can finally hear myself think (which lately has been amazingly quiet without all the internal noise), because I’m confident that yes, my mother did not take care of me. Yes, I was a kid who did deserve a caring, supportive, nurturing environment – and no, I didn’t get it. All that really happened. :cry:
Yes, both of my parents brought this on themselves, but that doesn’t really help me think myself out of a bag. My friends bring stuff on themselves, too, and I want to be supportive in helping them out of their messes just as I hope they would do the same for me. I want to forgive and accept their flaws, just as they do mine. But my parents are different (are they really? Am I just being a spoiled child??). They really, truly are different. And now I have two pieces of earth to stand on when that truth is called into question.
Wildflower
P.S. - Thanks for being you in this community. :)
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Whoops. Forgot to add my point :oops: :wink: . Details :roll: .
What I was trying to get as is that now I can use these truths to mine out more truths - and more importantly, myself. This is my compass, and it will be harder (I hope) for my parents to derail and define me (whether or not they're speaking to me in person or in my mind). I can look back on my past without the filter of their excuses, and I can finally begin see the child I was, and the person I am.
Wildflower
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HI All;
Hopefully as we all work through these issues we can move away from shame, which is a needless waste of emotional energy. Surf