Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: clj_writes on March 17, 2004, 04:19:46 PM
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Hi, everyone. My saga is less dramatic than many of the extreme N ones I read here but I am still stuck in certain ways and can't figure it out. I am wondering if perhaps someone here might "get" what I'm experiencing.
In my family, there was no hitting or yelling or overt negative feedback. However, there also wasn't any direct communication, any physical affection, or permission to express (or even have) emotions.
My maternal grandmother died of leukemia when my mother was 8 and my maternal grandfather began abusing my mother and her sisters after that. It has never been openly discussed but I suspect there was sexual abuse in addition to the physical. My father's mother was cold and distant and his father wasn't home much.
I grew up very controlled and very much a good girl (except they preferred boys so I adapted on that front as well). It wasn't until last year that I realized I had been brainwashed and then brainwashed into believing I hadn't been brainwashed (I think it was the psychologist R.D. Laing who first said something like this). I believed it was my job to keep my mother from feeling her pain.
I ended up with many difficulties: relationships (I was a chameleon for many years), disordered eating, perfectionism, anxiety, believing I did not have emotions, overly driven, socially isolating...
Although I've unraveled much of this over the past ten years, I seem to still have odd stuck places like thinking I will "kill" my parents if I become myself (I worked through this one). I'm wondering if someone might recognize this historical pattern (I don't think it is "N" although my mother did/does tend to turn things around so they end up about her) and know of any resources related to this.
Thanks for listening!
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Hi,
I'm new to this board so am just getting to grips with all this and testing the water I guess. I'm currently looking at this narcisism thing, and the possibility of being at the brunt of it myself for a long (*coughs*) time.
You say 'No overly negative' feedback?, but I'm sure you realise some of the damaging aspects to your upbringing in what you've mentioned? (not being allowed to express emotion, no physical contact, not good...).
I was interested in this idea that you would be 'killing'' your parents if you decide to be yourself. I haven't heard this before. The assumption would be that you feel a responsibility to be a life support, like you are PART of them, and if you leave you cut them off/they can't exist without you?? Your are one and the same, not your own seperate self? Guilt I guess.
I relate to a few things you mention btw, (re: the emotion thing, anxiety/social and otherwise/ocd tendancies, perfectionism, the list goes on...). Not really sure what else to say, but hope you hang around.
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clj,
Welcome! I am new also. Have you looked at the list of Narcissist Characteristics? Here are some below:
- inordinate self-pride
- self-concern
- an exaggeration of the importance of one's experiences and feelings
- ideas of perfection
- a reluctance to accept blame or criticism
- empathy deficit
- grandiosity
- entitlement
- shallowness
- preoccupation with fame, wealth, and achievement
- craving admiration, attention and praise
- placing excessive emphasis on displaying beauty and power
Maybe none of these fit, but thought I'd pass them along anyway. For years I didn't think my life was so bad either. Once I really dug in and discovered how my mother had treated me (and brainwashed me!), I saw how wrong it all was. I knew I had to do something. I have been "detached" from her for almost 20 years, but I still have some old tapes in my head from her.
I came from a "looking good" family. We all dressed, acted, performed "perfectly" for our mother. Everything was about appearance. I, too, have difficulty with perfectionism. I was always "driven". (Couldn't leave the house for a five minute errand without spending two hours getting ready! :roll: ) In the last five years (I'm 44) I have finally learned to relax and take care of myself instead of everyone else. I finally asked myself "Why? Why am I driving myself into an early grave?" I learned to take care of everyone else and make everything look perfect, but inside I was falling apart.
I hope you will take time for yourself. It really does help. I have been on this journey of self discovery for years, but only recently learned there was a name for my mother . . . NARCISSIST! Whether your mother fits this name or not, I think this message board will help you. There are a lot of people here who care and have great feedback. It's a place to get nurtured and find incredible information.
Good luck to you . . . thanks for your post.
Survivor
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I'd hazard a guess the 'superficial' element serves a function, i.e. not being in touch with yourself, (and in reflection not being in touch with others either). Getting in touch with yourself would be disasterous if the N was to see how he/she really is.
That said however, I'm sure the fuction (if it is a fuction!, I mean aren't some people just shallow by nature?) is used by lots of people with difficulties, for similar reasons, and not through ill will.
Sometimes people who are like this in my experience, seem to be so out of touch with themselves... its astounding. Terms like 'finding one self' are lost on them. As is any real soul searching. *Ponders* Does anyone agree with this? Because its guesswork atm.
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Survivor and cj,
Thanks for responding! I was having a bit of that "voicelessness" feeling for a bit there. :)
My mother does have some N tendencies. In her case it is how stupid she is (although she is a much-awarded teacher) and how fat (she's 5'6", 110 pounds) and how "she had a difficult childhood" rather than grandiosity. Looks are hugely important as are achievement, admiration, praise etc. Criticism???--YIKES!
I think she's a much better teacher than a mother although she openly says she doesn't like the girls. Before Christmas she kept insisting "All women are bitches" and trying to get me to agree. Before years of therapy and self-introspection and bodywork and individuation etc., I might not have disagreed with her! Egads. When I was born, they only had a boy name selected so my hospital bracelet says "Baby". No wonder I went on to get an engineering Ph.D. (overcompensation to say the least!).
Oh, the "killing" thing isn't enmeshment (although I had that in abundance--I've worked through most of it). I think it is the fact they needed me to be a certain way and that way was so rigidly and narrowly defined. To deviate seemed a killing blow. Now (I'm 41) they have no clue who I am and how "unacceptable" the true me is. Over Christmas it was humorous because I was so free from the old hooks and I could be amused at their foibles. I only felt like binging once over a four day period rather than every 15 minutes or so! Many major shifts are behind me.
My anxiety has been up lately because I've been connecting with people and saying taboo things like I think my grandmother "abandoned" my mother when she died (my grandmother was made into a saint...not supposed to say bad things about her). More to work through on the connection front...
Thanks again for listening. Sorry to babble on a bit....
Christy
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HI CJ and others;
I'd hazard a guess the 'superficial' element serves a function, i.e. not being in touch with yourself, (and in reflection not being in touch with others either). Getting in touch with yourself would be disasterous if the N was to see how he/she really is.
This is really the crux of it! The narcissist in usually very bright, I know my mother is but they are terrified of looking within because their ego's are sooo fragile. They really loathe themselves but have built a false-self to defend against that. Any remote reference to their self-centeredness, cruelty or tendancy to abuse can be met with extreme rage and denial; even a bland reference to " you hurt my feelings when you said that" can be met with rejection and ostracism. It is absolutely taboo for them to really look at who they are and how they affect others. Surf
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HI CJ and others;
.......even a bland reference to " you hurt my feelings when you said that" can be met with rejection and ostracism. It is absolutely taboo for them to really look at who they are and how they affect others. Surf
Well from my experience, i could never have said something like that, something so conscise. I mean this is alien to me, that openess and um...sort of ability to have those sort of exchange. Feelings werent 'allowed' to be put on the table for discussion, as if she couldn't be, or didn't allow herself to be critised, or seen as falliable. If they were ususally it came out scattered (in blind rage!), in my confusion, I think, and of course it was back to the old guilt tripping, on her part.
I think intelligence can be 'modified' by a persons attitude, the more people close themselves down, or don't want to learn, the stupider they become, and this of cpurse would be true for N's, and what they don't want to see.
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Sorry if that post seemed about me specifically as usual, just weird the way this feels like its unfolding before my eyes, thats all. Thanks surf.:)
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Actually what i meant to say was something like 'you hurt my feelings' would have been considered anything but a bland statement, in my experience (sorry, accusation rather :wink: )!
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"They really loathe themselves but have built a false-self to defend against that. Any remote reference to their self-centeredness, cruelty or tendancy to abuse can be met with extreme rage and denial".
Oh my goodness, yes! Any remote reference...what a truism that is! My mother immediately goes into hurt, offended, "I had a painful childhood" pitiful mode. Then I'm awash in the guilt yet again. I spent most of my life avoiding the land-mine of "remote references"!
BTW, please pardon my difficulty listening at the moment. I have almost a roaring in my ears from telling these truths so openly and it is making it difficult to "hear" much else.
Thanks for the insights!
Christy
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So why do they cry? They are crying for themselves? Or acting?
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My mother did not emote. Nor did my father or brother. I think my mother cried about once a decade (no exaggeration).
Maybe for some people crying is staging how they *think* they are supposed to react in a given situation? A socially acceptable response of some sort?
Just guessing....
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Geez I really need to register, would cut down on the post count a little.......
Common statements made by my mother.
'Its all my fault, I cant do anything right!' (in regard to my illness when brought up/discussed.)
'I'm wrong as usual!'
Crying and not letting ME ( god dont i feel stupid!)) console her after an argument. Drawing away, avoiding looking at me when im talking to her unless she wants to.
(in response to me saying im angry at the way she brought me up, later retracted through guilt of course!).....
'I know we didnt have much, but i did my best!' (making it about money/possessions, like I give a **** about what I did have matrialistically!)
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HiCJ and others,
In any minimally healthy relationship you need to be able to say, "that hurt my feelings". This is how one makes another more sensitive and how relationships are crafted to work. But yes, with an N, this would be considered CONFRONTATIONAL, which is ridiculous of course and leaves no room for negotiation or boundary setting. If you are not allowed to set boundaries how can you compromise or feel safe? It takes you to the no-man's land of relationship with an N: utterly frustrating, painful and totally self-subjugating. You become completely involved in a double-bind and that's pretty crazy-making. UUUGGGGHHH. Surf :x
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CJ--it is weird enough our initials are the same but our lives have a lot of parallels too!
'I'm wrong as usual!"
Oh, have I heard that one a million times. Sighs and pitiful sounds would accompany it, too.
Both my parents have low self-esteem, are workaholics, and are extremely bright and accomplished. They always told me how great I was but how was I supposed to believe them when they obviously thought they themselves had little value?? How could I trust *those* people? Plus anything "unacceptable" was ignored (hoping it would go away?).
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hi can u elabourate a bit on what u said on the last paragraph? Yes that was a common one. what about um....(on a similar theme)' I brought you into this world!!!!' (i.e. and you disappoint me like this, after all ive done etc etc...).
'I didnt bring you up to be like this, do that' etc etc).
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At least they told you you were great although it was discordant. All the kids in my family heard was how destructive they were, rotten and selfish! Pretty embarrassing when you're only 8-10 and she's on the phone to your friends mother saying things like that! Surf
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clj--I am confused by your post--could you please clarify?
This is getting weird with a cj, a clj, and a clj_writes (me). Perhaps I should change my name selection!
You are right, Surf. I am grateful my parents weren't tearing me down all the time. They did try to boost me although a lot of their other behaviors were counterproductive. For many years I thought I had the perfect parents and upbringing, and that all the other kids got gypped. I was shocked when I started discovering how controlled I was and how it was impacting me as an adult.
My mother wants to BE me. I think she wants to do her life over and get it right this time. Hence the nickname "Smother Mother". She is also called "Drama Mama" at times. ;)
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Sorry christy. um,,,i managed to type my name as clj for some reason lol. I just wondered if you could elabourate on the last paragraph, maybe examples? ..... When you say trust *those* people, do you mean your parents. Also what was considered 'unnaceptable'. (Or an example of....)
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Ha Ha; those are cute names! Your mother is a "binding" mother who could potentially smother you because of her attempts to bind you to her. At least you are aware of it so 'knowing the problem is 80% of the cure'. Does she get angry at you or guilt trip you when you attempt tp establish your own identity? or is she not the rageful type? if not you are very lucky. Surf
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cj,
By trust those people I guess I mean I knew at some level that things were very *off*. All the focus on my mother's pain and then my father's emotional disconnection from everything...the perfect family was much less than. Now I see clearly so much of what was wrong and cannot trust them with who I am.
Let's see, here's a list of unacceptable: anything but super short hair (I started growing mine out last year at age 40!), just being instead of doing, associating with others outside the family (okay as a child, NOT as an adult...my parents had no friends), putting anything into writing (no wonder my anxiety is sky-rocketing here!), underachieving, feelings, getting married (I did at age 35), having children (we are trying now...rather belatedly, eh?)...I obviously could go on and on.
Surf,
My mother doesn't "do" angry. She doesn't do any emotions whatsoever. Her only quasi-emotive states are pain and anxiety. She acts hurt when I establish my own identity. She is still upset I got married and she wants me all to herself when we visit. He is the perfect foil; definitely repellent to the smothering tendencies! :) I don't feel lucky, somehow. I feel I got a goodly dose of pain although I would never attempt to compare it to anyone else's. I want all my cells to deeply know what it is to be healthy and whole and fully myself. I can't seem to get there by saying "it wasn't that bad". I've tried that innumerable times but it just doesn't work. I think by stating my truths I will be able to transcend them and put them into better perspective. I want to believe it, anyway.
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You're on a roll Christy; you seem to know what it will take to find yourself. Good Luck! Surf :D
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Thanks, Surf!
Well, I started freaking out after all my posts and then began IM'ing with a fairly new friend of mine and told her what I had called my mother on a forum and how I thought it was freaking me out. Well, she said "Check out the definition of narcissism at voicelessness.com". I asked her how she knew about this forum and she said I had posted it in another forum weeks ago (major "duh" for me!). So I go to the narcissism article and am floored! The exceptionally vulnerable part, the using someone important--OMG!!!
Then I start remembering things like when I was in my late 20's and early 30's and she would come into the bathroom when I was taking a shower and tell me "wow, you do have fat thighs!". (I am 5'6" and weighed about 125 at the time--it was the height of my binge eating.) And various and sundry other negative comments (amazing how the brain has select memory sometimes) came back too made both by her AND my father.
Although it is disturbing to see them in a clearer light, on one hand, it is a vast relief on the other. I am not insane. (I just keep repeating this to myself in amazement!)
Thanks for helping to spur this insight!!
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Hi, everyone. I just figured out something and I could use some help. I have been in self-destruct mode the past day or so and now I realize it is because I am angry at my mother and her "painful childhood" that I was so protective of my whole life. Before I felt like "yeah, it wasn't so good but she needed me soooo much, it was worth it" but that has vaporized and I've got the most intense anger I can ever remember burning in me now.
Any suggestions? I'm at work so there aren't any pillows to punch! The good news is that I recognize feelings. The bad news is that they are overwhelming me and I'm binging and see no end to this....
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Hi Christy,
Can strongly identify with being used by parents to ease their pain. Short of actual therapy, I recommend just writing it all down in a journal (it can be on the computer if you type faster than you write). That is, what happened, the memories and how you feel about it. It really helps to get it out of your head and on paper, and to connect the feelings with what happened. Rage, cry, mourn.
I use spiral notebooks because they are cheap (no use feeling guilty ruining a pretty book with ugly thoughts) and I had a lot of them to fill!
Hope this suggestion helps. Best, Seeker
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Christy - I can only share my own experience. When the anger hit, I was so blindly 'enraged' I really think I would have killed my mother had she been asleep and had I been in the same house (lots of 'ifs'!!). I've never felt anything to intense or so absolute. Fortunately I was hundreds of miles away and it wasn't strong enough to get me into the car and onto the road!!!
The binging is squashing it down. Don't be frightened of it. It won't kill you and you won't kill her!!! If you squash it down, you'll just have to keep going through it as it will keep coming up and you'll keep squashing it down.
You know, I taught my son about hitting pillows for anger and what I've seen has made me realise that it's not the right solution. You need to sit and feel its intensity at the centre of your stomach or solar plexus (or wherever you feel it most) and let it rise up and overflow - like a well that fills from the bottom until it overflows. Really feel the intensity and just notice how it rises and then washes away on the momentum of the tide.
I think the anger is 'just' part of the process of what we're all going through as we become 'aware' and you need to go through it to go forward.
You can do it :wink:
R
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Dear Seeker and Rosencrantz,
Thank you both so much! I do a lot of writing and thought I'd written the anger out last week (ha--that's pretty funny--thinking I could write out a lifetime of suppressed anger in one session!). I'll definitely be at the page more with this one!
R, I know you are right about feeling the anger. I know it has to pass through me. At least now I see that it is anger and not something unknown. It is funny (ironic funny) but I was reading a book and was doing the exercises chapter by chapter until I came to the one on "Confronting Mother" where you experience your anger at the mother you've internalized. I got stalled there about 6 weeks ago. I just couldn't conjure up any any anger or come up with any specific examples I wanted to work through. OMG--blind, deaf and dumb (as in unable to speak), I'd say!
Thanks again. Time to see how much shaking my internal rafters can take! ;)
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Thank you again, dear Rosencrantz. Last night (while repeating the mantra of "it won't kill her and it won't kill me"), I did as you suggested. The response in my body was intense but not painful like trying to not feel it had been! I discovered it wasn't just anger but a combination of anger and grief--grief at how I had been duped for so many years apparently. Anyway, it was cathartic! I don't think I would have been able to do it without your encouragement and coaching--many thanks. :)