Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on March 07, 2007, 09:35:04 PM
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Hi All,
Part of my program when I started AA was to start to be HONEST with myself. It's a hard thing to do. First you have to realize that you ARE lying to yourself and hiding things. Then you have to notice WHEN you are doing that and put a stop to it. It has been hard. When I get confronted, I often want to flee... however, I am learning, as I make through each face-to-face more easily, that dealing with things head-on is a lot better than hiding. It is harder initially... but so much cleaner at the end. I need to push myself often to get past the fear, but feel so much better for doing it.
At any rate, the point is, you need to be honest, and honest, too, about your intentions. I catch myself being sneaky at times. Instead of being upfront, as I should be, I want to find a way to "catch a person out" rather than saying, "I don't like this and here is why."
I think a lot of just missed the education on dealing with situations in a straightforward manner, since we were brought up, in essence, by children. They acted like children trhough adulthood, so we had no model for appropriate behavior.
The reason I am bringin this up here is that I have noticed that there are people who sign in under false names or as guests unless they have something to say in their own names. I would suggest that if you are doing this, you are still not ready to be honest with yourself and this is SUCH an important step in recovery. It's not a game! It is YOUR life! And you ahve to decide if you want to be well and happy.
Of course I don't mean this as in when you are on a different computer and sign in and put down "Beth as Guest...."
A point to ponder.
Love, Beth
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I have done it once and felt stupid. I changeg my name to protect my identity but I still am Kelly an overcomer or oc for short.
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I've thought about doing it to Kell... just decided that to be true to myself I would have to deal even if I dodn't want to.
I know you wanted to change your name to retain privacy from your family. That is different.
I know last year I pretended not to know some information that someone wanted to gossip to me about. I should have just said, "Yes, I know and I don't want to get involved," rather than being false.
XO,
Beth
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Hi Grat, you are so much correct. It makes me feel uncomfortable.
Love
Lupita
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I have done it once and felt stupid. I changeg my name to protect my identity but I still am Kelly an overcomer or oc for short.
oh oc I didn't know you were Overcomer.
Izzy
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Yep. I post on my phone a lot and it is hard to type. That is why there are Mistakes made all the time. I use T9 And he you dont watch it the wrong word is posted or weird capitalizations.
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See? I think I figured out how to sign in on my phone!
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Hi Gratitude,
Part of the reason I rarely post here is because I am concerned about backlash if who I needed to talk about found out. I'm not an anonymous person on the web. Because of my music and human rights activism, I am very easy to find. Got a ton of websites, etc. Creativity is such a part of my healing journey, and I love to share my music when I feel it can say more than my words. Also, what I learn comes from my work in various causes, etc. Much of my work has to do with overcoming and healing. I've been asked to speak as a survivor, and I do. It's no secret! This brings me comfort and a sense of resolution within myself to take something negative and offer it to the positive. It's a big part of my own healing. So I like to log in as who I am and share what I have to share.
However, I, also, have my own personal journey that I sometimes need help with, when I feel like I want to scream my head off and just vent or need to describe what happened for feedback. It's then that I feel constrained. I can't speak the pain, I can't share the details as DreamSinger - the consequences could be pretty nasty if found out. And I've thought about signing in as a guest or someone else, but that just feels so weird. I haven't been able to do it. I'm not afraid of others finding out. I'm afraid only of the N finding out. My fear goes beyond just pissing them off, but for my safety.
Right now, I can talk about N's generally, because I come from a long line of them, so what I say doesn't necessarily point to any one particular person. But it's gotten to the point where I have been more and more seriously thinking about deleting my account and starting over as someone else, so I can get the personal support I need for specific situations. Either way, a part of me will have to remain hidden. I don't know that I can post as two people, because the thought of that messes up my head.
But your post has really gotten me scared, because I want to know - how can you tell members are signing in as guests? Is it their IP info? Is that available to the general public or do you have administrative privileges?
Please let me know. This is, also, good information for me, since I was stalked at a forum I run. I've been asking different people involved in internet safety if you can find out who people are through IP address or other means, not only to be aware of who's stalking you, but for those who need to cover their tracks on-line from abusive partners and such. Haven't gotten a definitive answer yet.
And I think it's good to know just how private privacy really is on this or any forum. Thanks!
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It's then that I feel constrained. I can't speak the pain, I can't share the details as DreamSinger - the consequences could be pretty nasty if found out. And I've thought about signing in as a guest or someone else, but that just feels so weird. I haven't been able to do it. I'm not afraid of others finding out. I'm afraid only of the N finding out. My fear goes beyond just pissing them off, but for my safety.
Dear DreamSinger,
Yesterday, I tentively posted the beginnings of my personal life story, but fear, caused me to withdraw it shortly afterward, as my Nmother has stalked me previously on the internet and it was a hellish nightmare.
So my empathy and understanding reaches out to you.
Leah x
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I think when anybody wants to remove posts because they're feeling overexposed or unsafe, they should be fine with doing it.
DreamSinger, I think your questions are good ones for Doc G. He'll explain and it'll help us all.
And I think getting personal support here is more important than being your public self in one more place. So why not come back as a newbie and do just that? I think it's a fine idea.
hugs,
Hops
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Wow!!!! I wanted so much to get friends!!!! But I guess, I will never see them.
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Whilst searching on internet for some info and found a site
http://eaandfaith.blogspot.com/]http://eaandfaith.blogspot.com/]http://eaandfaith.blogspot.com/ (http://eaandfaith.blogspot.com/)
An item on the site's "Links that might help you" section is ......
Read Notify ................ tells you the IP address and location of the person who sent you the email etc.
So I clicked on the link and found myself on http://www.readnotify.com/readnotify/about.asp (http://www.readnotify.com/readnotify/about.asp)
readnotify.com
There are two ways you can send tracked emails:
Simply add: .readnotify.com to the end of your recipients email address (they won't see this)
or
Install our ActiveTracker plugin to add the tracking for you.
What will you tell me about the tracked emails I send?
ReadNotify will endeavour to provide the following in your tracking reports:
Date and time opened
Location of recipient (per their ISP city /town)
Map of location (available on paid subscriptions)
Recipients IP address
Apparent email address of opening (if available)
Referrer details (ie; if accessed via web mail etc)
URL clicks
How long the email was read for
How many times your email was opened
If your email was forwarded, or opened on a different computer
This IP Address Map lookup service is provided for FREE by Geobytes, inc to assist you in locating the geographical location of an IP Address.
http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation (http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation)
Not quite sure what to make of all this!! :shock:
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I agree with you Bean. There are so many crazy people outside.
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There are great points here. Obviously, my parents didn't name me gratitude :)
What I meant was, I don't post comments that I do not want to own that are not under the name Gratitude. For example, I don't write a post, then sign in under another name to track and see and comment on it. Does that make any sense?
I totally understand concerns and worry for safety. Especially in abusive realtionships. Those of you in that situation SHOULD be careful. But I think that is different from the idea I was bringing up.
I used to be afraid that things i posted might be seen... but in my case, I know that my mother would a) never think that she did any of this and 2) doesn't know how to use a search engine well even if she wanted to...
Do you see the idea I meant to bring up?
((((((everyone))))))))))
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Dream,
You asked how I can tell... I simply can see patterns in writing and the types of comments made.
Love, Beth
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The personality of the writer is transparent many times, in the aggressiveness, or the style in the approach, or the shyness, some are tactful, some are not, and that is felt even if they intend to be somebody different. hat we say can always identify us. Or so I think. Tell me if I am mistaken.
Love
Lupita
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Thanks for the links, Leah! I'll be looking at them soon. There's a lot to learn here.
And Hops, I appreciate your support to let myself "be taken care of"...to consider having my personal needs met, rather than doing my advocate thing in one more place. That apparently is an issue with me. Part of my self image and role from earliest beginnings. I feel a resistance...but thank you for this "permission". It means a lot to me.
And I did email Dr. G., like last year, I believe about this. He didn't have a definitive answer concerning the logistics of the software for me, but he was understanding of my predicament. As I said, I still couldn't bring myself to try to post as two different people anyway.
But I do understand the original meaning of your post, Gratitude. I just wondered how you were able to ascertain that individuals were posting as themselves, and then another. It brought up to the surface my original concerns about being traced or found out if I shared details of my situation, even anonymously. Thanks for letting me know you recognized people through their writing styles. That's something I keep a lookout for in my own situation.
I agree with you. Anonymity is used to protect our safety, not provide us cover for potshots or create an impression of support for our stand. Finding one's voice is important, and it is a right that was taken away for many of us, but every right comes with it the responsibility to speak with integrity and authenticity, and I believe that should be upheld.
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Dream,
As usual, you coalesced my spotty idea into useful words!!! I get ideas and just don't get them out as concisely as you all do!!!!!
Love,
Beth
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Yes Bean!!! That is exactly what I meant!!! I am trying to be honest and it is so hard at times, but I think it is vital.
No worries on bringing up the safety issue. I think it is important.
Also, I don't assume most of the time that a guest or infrequent poster is someone else. I have noticed it a bit here and there. For the most part, I think we are all distict and pretty cool human beings on the site. I wish there were some way to provde security so that all could post freely. Sometimes, too, when you are already used to being afraid, it takes a long time to get over that fear. You can't erase habits of self preservation easily.
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It does seem odd when you see 3 different Guests posting at the same time, each with the same email address?? Not labeling or condemning .... just wondering Why?
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Anyway folks, I am taking a break from here for a while, as presently, it is all a little bit too much for me to be honest.
So very best wishes to you all and hoping for you Peace, Love, Joy and Health along your journey of healing.
Love to all.
God Bless.
Leah xxx
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Best of luck to you, Leah.
I'm sorry you can't get comfortable.
I'm happy here and don't spend much time focusing on suspicious thoughts.
The board has been a healing and supportive place for me...and I don't
fuss about who's who. Instinct works pretty welll, I feel I can usually
tell who's being open. And that's almost everybody, I feel.
Taking posters at face value, as sincere, and responding in kind,
seems to help things average out as a good experience.
Hops
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leah: Maybe I didnt track with this whole post but I cannot believe you are leaving. you have posted more than anyone in a very short time and usually with lots of insight. Maybe you could just back off and not post so much. If the conflict had anything to do with it, that happens sometimes and my advise is to ride those out without getting so involved. It is too emotionally exhausting to get wrapped up the conflict. Of course it is up to you! Peace!
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As I said, only "taking a break" for a while, the same as CB and others, whilst things recover after recent events.
Did post yesterday that Mothering Sunday was a difficult time for me, and, I feel I need to rest a little and breathe.
Also, have to crack on with other stuff.
My heart has been and remains genuine here and in real life.
Please don't take offence at my words.
Blessings.
Leah xx
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Overcomer,
You are really kind. I don't get much kind lately. The last 2 days I have constantly cried and it's so silly I know, but it was the same last year, all to do with Mothering Sunday. It's ridiculous and juvenile I know. Just need to sit back awhile and take a breather.
The conflict I have overcome, i just happened to get caught up quite innocently in it. Just one of those unfortunate things that happen, same as in real life. Not a problem.
Thanks and talk soon.
Leah xx
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((((((Leah)))))))))))))
Wishing you happier days.
Love, Beth
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Ditto what Beth said and take care Leah.
Re: Signing In Under Different Names:
Who cares? I mean, what does it really matter to me? If the person needs to use 15 different names in order to survive emotionally and to try to break from their voicelessness, I don't think it's my business or worry. If someone posts under numerous names to help....themselves or others.....why would I have a problem with that? It's only when people use the board to say rude stuff, cruel stuff or derogatory, disrespectful stuff that gets my hair all fired up and a rumblin' in my tummy. And then it doesn't matter what name is being used...it's the words, attitude, etc that sends sparks flying in my head.
I assume all the names people use here are fictional.... so how many is just another part of that fiction. The reality is no one really knows who anyone is (unless they devulge that info personally) and everyone is free here. Free to use as many names as they need or want to or find helpful....seems fine with me. It doesn't effect me and if it helps anyone.....good thingy then! Not what I need but if others do, what's the harm?
My 2 cents.
Sela
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I don't have any problem with people signing up under different names unless they are doing so to control an argument, sway the opinion of the community by misrepresenting consensus or attack another person in as many different ways as they can.
For instance, if one person is rude to another, then that's one thing. They can write 10 posts and flame off on that person. But if they log in as ten different people, then that's a very different experience for the person getting flamed. Then instead of having one person yelling at you, which you can elect to ignore them and know it's the opinion of one person, you are suddenly ganged up upon by many people - when in truth, it's only one person taking many pot shots from many different angles.
That's the harm and emotionally can be a lot more devastating to the target.
Most people do use fictional names, but hopefully, that doesn't mean fictional stories or misrepresentation. Real time, real concern and caring is invested on the part of most members of any community. Of course, there is always the chance and probability that this will happen. And I understand this whenever I join an on-line community, but do I care if someone is playing with me in this way? Yeah, I do, but I'm not going to waste too much time wondering who is doing it and who's not, because I'm not a mind reader. :) I have to take what most people say on face value and walk away from others I don't get a good feeling about.
Finding one's voice to me means also taking responsibility for what I say.
As I think about this, I guess it kind of reminds me of the dynamics of relational aggression. In real life, people (most commonly believed to be women and girls) who can't be openly aggressive will use other people, other relationships to hurt an individual, to express negative feelings they, themselves, cannot openly own. They get other people to do it for them.
Perhaps, in cyber space, they can use other identities - it's still the same principle. Not owning your own negativity but expressing it through other personalities (instead of other people) - whether real or fictional. The bottom line is you get to hurt someone else while preserving your own image - fictional or otherwise - in your cyber community. It is the same basic inability to claim ownership of feelings and thoughts.
I don't think it's the taking of identities that's hurtful as much as their use when used in this way.
When one person creates fictional people 1, 2, 3, 4, etc, for the purpose of supporting their position or attacking someone they don't like, it seems less to me about breaking free from voicelessness than wanting to win an argument or beat someone over the head with many bats by cloning yourself. In that way, it's also an attempt to silence the voice of another...or punish them for using it.
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Hi all:
DreamSinger wrote: ...you are suddenly ganged up upon by many people - when in truth, it's only one person taking many pot shots from many different angles.
That's the harm and emotionally can be a lot more devastating to the target.
That's what I would classify as rude, cruel, derogatory and disrespectful. Not nice, I agree. I don't like the idea of that. I can't tell, however, who is who, for certain, which is frustrating. I see your point.
Most people do use fictional names, but hopefully, that doesn't mean fictional stories or misrepresentation.
I hope for the same thing but being a public bulletin board, it's probable and possible that that may not always be the case. I do hope that most are telling the truth here. I try to believe that, anyway. Sometimes I wonder though. I'm not PC literate enough to know if there is a technical way to prevent people from using different names?
The bottom line is you get to hurt someone else while preserving your own image - fictional or otherwise - in your cyber community. It is the same basic inability to claim ownership of feelings and thoughts.
It is unfortunate but yep.....that's what happens, sometimes, I think. Dr. G will step in sometimes. Not always. I think it's tough to let everyone have their say and define when it's .....enough.
....it's also an attempt to silence the voice of another...or punish them for using it.
I hope, that in such situations, others here will pipe up and support the target. However, things are not always as they appear. A person who is acting nasty might be doing so inappropriately but be in truly deep pain. You know how a cornered animal can become vicious? Not something that's easy to think about when you're the target though eh?
I dunno. I see what you mean, DreamSinger, but I also think I see why people are allowed the freedom to use as many names as they choose to. There is no perfect system, I guess. And if no one is hurting anyone, I see no problem with it. It's like you said, when a person misuses the privilege, and another suffers, that it's not right/fair and it gets my goat too. But that could happen no matter how many or few names a person uses. It has to do with the person, (their disfunction), not their name/s, don't you think? Won't such a person find ways to hurt others regardless? And can such people really be stopped?
Sela
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Hi Dreamsinger,
I do see what you mean...just had these thoughts while reading (2 cents' worth!)
I don't have any problem with people signing up under different names unless they are doing so to control an argument, [[b]but I couldn't control that] [/b] sway the opinion of the community by misrepresenting consensus [reminds me of talk radio or "politics as usual", can't control that either] or attack another person in as many different ways as they can. [if flaming got out of hand Dr. G. steps in, so I don't need to control that]
Just feels better to me to focus as closely as I can on how people are affecting me, learn from it, work on my own voice, etc...
Met with my minister this a.m. to co-plan a service on Darfur, and one of the things he said was that in order to assuage others' pain, people have to be willing to experience it and not hide from it first, only then can we help effectively. He said that's why more often 10 years after a disaster or genocide or war, there will be such affecting films (e.g., Hotel Rawanda) and then people coming out say, with full hearts, oh that was awful. But being present to the present anguish and suffering in the world is harder.
Rambling...
Hops
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Hey Hops and Sela,
I totally agree. There isn't much you can do to control the choices other people make, and I'm not saying that in an attempt to preclude abuse we should not allow multiple names. I've thought of signing in under another identity for previously stated reasons, and though I haven't been able to yet, there's nothing to say that there might not come a time when something so outrageous happens and I have no other avenue for venting, I won't create another identity to vent away, spewing forth details and screaming my little head off.
But I do think that it's good to occasionally, as a community, vocalize our expectations of what we may perceive as fair or appropriate interaction as Gratitude did by starting this thread. It leads one to, perhaps, assess our actions and the impact of it on others through another's perspective.
This thread has, also, lead me to consider a number of things, one of which I am delighted to have seen that a form relational aggression can take in cyber space, other than just the commonly known forms of cyber abuse. This is a topic that is of great interest to me and I'm pretty active in this field. So I'm really grateful for the discussions this thread has opened up and the new insights.
It's inspiring this board has such a beautiful commitment to allow and support one another in discovering and using our voice. One of the not too pleasant things I have come to learn on my own healing journey is the number of times I have hurt people with harsh and callous words, in the name of speaking my truth or being honest. This is understandable considering my background and all that I needed to learn about communicating effectively and with integrity.
Understandable, but not excusable - not at the expense of others. Just as my own abusers' behavior might be understandable considering where they came from and where they were at the period of their lives they abused me, but not excusable.
Having my own behavior brought to my attention has been a valuable, though not fun, part of my growth. It's a gift we can continue to give to one another. It's in that light that I read Gratitude's post, to make a statement about something that she felt was wrong, and it is in same light I share my own views.
Having said that, I feel no compulsion to try to control or assure, as if I could, that others don't use the different names opportunity abusively. It's not my place and I'm okay with that just as I'm okay with stating that I don't like it. But I do agree, it's better to invest energy in something you can have an effect upon than not.
When I was younger, I wanted to take on the world. Now, I'm happy to be at peace with it.
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Like I said earlier, I did it once so I could say something stupid......the problem is, I know that people "know" me here on the board. They support me in my job search. The problems with my nmom and aunt and bookkeeper at my work, etc. They kinda "know" me. So what if I get mad and go on a tirade? Suddenly they think to themselves, "that Kelly is a loose cannon......I don't like her anymore....." That is why Reality Check (whoever it was) signed under an anonymous name. They got to rant and rave and protect the person we all know and love from the wrath that they would have gotten if they would have signed under their real name!!!
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Using more than one alias on a board or chat room is called using a 'sockpuppet'. It creates the impression that there are multiple people involved in the discussion/advocating for a particular point of view, when there is actually only one.
The board has gone through major episodes of sockpuppetry in the past - and I do mean the past; 2003, 2004; VESMB has been around for a few years now. Usually the sockpuppet outbreaks happen at times of prolonged conflict, where people have reacted by feeding energy to the conflict rather than by removing energy from it to allow it to die down.
A conflict that is rooted in attention-seeking will die very quickly if it is not rewarded with attention. A conflict that is rooted in fundamental differences of opinion, values, or personal dislike will not die if onlookers refuse to 'feed' it, but it will usually avoid extreme escalation, and normally either reach some form of resolution or go dormant.
A dormant conflict tends to simmer along and flare up at intervals until one or both parties are reconciled to it [agree to disagree] or to each other [find genuine resolution].
The two types of conflict look, feel, and sound quite different, and it's not hard to tell them apart. Usually, the most constructive thing to do in either case is to let the parties involved have enough room to work it out between themselves unimpeded, and get the board moderator involved pronto if anything escalates to the point of frank abuse or either party begins to exhibit extreme aggression or other signs of instability.
This is not the 'bystander effect'; it's the difference between calling the cops when a fight gets ugly, vs. wading into the fray and joining it.
If people feel that they can't simply stand back, then the most constructive option is to attempt to clarify what the real source of the conflict is, from a stance of genuine neutrality, without taking sides, dropping hints, or baiting either party. Sometimes the real source of a conflict is not what's being held up as the source. This is especially true when conflict arises from something like inappropriate competitiveness or envy, that one party knows is inappropriate but still indulges. It can be very helpful to get that out into the light, and it's very difficult for the target, in that situation, to do it themselves. But this is very difficult, and anyone who tries it usually finds themselves becoming a secondary target pretty quickly.
Most often - everywhere in cyberspace, not just here - sockpuppets are used by people with an interest in keeping a conflict alive. This is not always the person who initiated the conflict [or the person targeted by it]. People sometimes will 'pile on'; using one person's attempt to start an argument as an opportunity to gang up on the other person involved. These folks use sockpuppets too, fairly often, to magnify their numbers.
And sometimes people are simply attracted by drama, find it stimulating, and don't even realize that's what's going on, because this attraction is so pervasive in our culture. If that's the case, just about anyone can end up drawn to and participating in conflicts, 'stuck' to them and unable to detach, while feeling both fascination and aversion at the same time.
Sometimes, though, people just use sockpuppets because they don't feel safe using their customary names. That's usually the first step towards deleting their old account and starting a new one. We've seen that here, too. It happens.
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Never done that. My life is so transparent that everybody would know it is me. My English is so particular, that anybody would recognize it. I am an open book. Trying to learn to hide my emotions. Very behind in the training. Sorry.
Love to all,
Lupita
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Stormchild,
So well said! I love the analogy of the word sockpuppet! I will think of that every time I see this happen. I am awed by your deep understanding of the problem of unresolved conflict. Thanks!
Dandylife
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Hi Lupita
Me too. I joke at work that anyone can tell if I'm annoyed because when I am, my writing will have the word 'therefore' in it. Sad but true.
Dandy
If I understand anything about conflict, I learned most of it from being here for two years, talking to people, hearing their stories, and occasionally butting heads with some of them. [It's just past my 'birthday': I joined March 8, 2005]. What I mostly understand, though, is how much I still need to learn, and how easily I've made mistakes that have prolonged or exacerbated conflicts myself.
Gotten involved when I shouldn't'a.
Spoken in the heat of emotion when I would have done better to wait and cool off and re-read.
Not allowed someone else the time they needed to wait and cool off and re-read.
Been 'baited' into responding when the best thing to do was nothing.
'Baited' others, sometimes unaware and sometimes, sadly, well aware that I was doing so.
Tried to defuse situations via indirect communication when no power on earth could defuse them at that time, and I could have realized that if I'd paid more attention to details.
Addressed situations directly when people seemed to be trying to hurt me deliberately - which was constructive; but when doing so, being unable to resist the compulsion to inflict pain in return, which was destructive.
Watched others become secondary targets, sometimes totally out of the blue, and had no idea what to do about it or how to help them.
And the list goes on...
One thing conflict does provide, whether you're involved or just a spectator, is an opportunity to take your own inventory. First. And there have been a lot of times when I haven't done that.
So - for what it's worth, these are things I know now.
May they help others, and may knowing them now bring me a measure of peace.
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wow!!!! Stormchild!!! That was impacting!!! :idea: :shock: :o
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Stormchild,
Your first post is both informative and instructive - thank you.
You second post, whereby you speak with openness, honesty and integrity, is to be admired and respected.
Most certainly, you have my respect.
Leah xx
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(((((Lupita)))))
(((((Leah)))))
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Stormy,
VERY comprehensive.
And I also fall into some bad patterns. And I want to be mean and dig up quotes sometimes or do something vindictive, but i really try to hold my tongue until my urges pass. It is hard to get attacked and not want to retaliate. But to me, I feel like attacking back is causing more of a problem, when we all are already defective :) I think making myself sit back and not do what I have felt would be justified has been a good lesson for me and something I struggle with in 3D with destructive people too.
Thank you. I am going to reread your entry.
Love, Beth
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(((((Beth)))))
Well, now, you started this... :-)
the thread, I mean. With honesty aforethought...
((((()))))