Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: quietkate on March 10, 2007, 06:54:05 PM
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When I was 17-years-old (1970), a virgin, and dating someone I thought I might marry, we wanted to have sex. I asked my family doctor if he would be willing to prescribe me birth control without telling my parents. He did so. And then he called and told them.
My n mother went into her Southern Belle mode yelling, screaming, crying (she was allowed to express emotions; I wasn't), "If you get pregnant you will go away to have that baby and give that baby up. You won't stay here to embarass your sister." (the point behind asking my doctor for birth control was that I did not want to become pregnant. . .)
She demanded that I give her the prescription, said that she would have it filled, and that I WOULD take it.(again, my original idea . . .)
I was beaten and kept home from school for a week.
The next morning, with my father there to guard me, mother went down to the library and checked out the six books that had to do with sex.
She walked in the door, placed them on the coffee table, and said, "You will stay home for a week. You will read every word in these books. I may have raised a whore, but I will raise the best educated whore in Litchfield."
Several years previously, when my paternal grandfather died, I added the dates up and learned that my paternal grandmother had had a child out of wedlock at the age of 16 in about 1912. I learned that my Aunt Beryl had been born out of wedlock.
I only thought of this today. How might my father have thought being a witness to this drama and knowing that the mother he loved and I loved had had a child out of wedlock?
I know that he grew up in a home with alcohol abuse and learned to make himself small and silent to avoid the abuse. My father -- who I love -- would go a mile out of his way to avoid any sort of conflict. When he committed suicide, it made perfect sense to me. That is the ultimate way of avoiding conflict.
I don't know why I never thought of this until today. Maybe my father was as voiceless as I was?
I want to thank you all for your posts. I have ordered two books that you have recommended to me.
It is much easier to not deal with this than it is to deal with it.
Thank you all again.
KATE
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Kate,
It is so important to keep our voice - and use it! This brings up a storm of memories for me, too. Telling my mom I was molested by a man I babysat for at 15 and she said Oh you must have asked for it - don't embarrass us by saying something. (He's now president of the state builders assoc. very respected, though I talked to another girl at my school who he did it to.) And then regressing back to age ? 4 or so when the doctor put his hand down my pants and I told my mom and she said he 'must have had a reason' for doing that - he was investigated, fired and sued by many after that happened. (!) I guess even when we use our voice it may not be heard. But keep voicing! That's our only shot, right?
Dandylife
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My goodness, quietkate and dandylife,
What a generational thiing. .. out of wedlock and molestation.
My daughter was born out of wedlock and I 'disgraced the family'. I was trying to keep this quiet but..... then the condemnation came from siblings as well, except my brother.
My siblings (4) each had 2 children within the confines of marriage and each child took longer than 9 months, from the date of marriage, to be born.
Then my little b****** marries and has her children within the confines of marriage and all my siblings' children lived common-law, had babies before marriage, had to get married, one had 4 children before marrying their father, and divorece is rampant, even my daughter. Seemed to me I needed an apology!
quietkate: Did the doctor call your mother because you were not 18? Nowadays some topics ought to be off limits in case we put out feet in our mouth! Some [older] women cannot talk about sex.
dandylife: How terrible to have your mother dismiss 'things' the way she did.
My mother was the same but I chose to be different. When my daughter came home for lunch one day, she asked, "Mom, What is a "blow-job?" I nearly croaked. I asked a couple of questions to make sure we were on the same page, as I made lunch and finally we were at the table eating tuna salad sandwiches when I came to the botton line
She goes "BLAH!" She spit out her bite of sandwich. "Did you have to tell me that when I was eating?"
I wonder if she remembers that?????
Izzy
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Yes, I think dysfunctional families are all about "looking" good. My mom never EVER came to my defense if I was wronged. If a teacher said something, well, THEY were the authority figure, the teacher so we have no right to ask them anything........well, when I felt my daughter was wronged I called right up and accused the teacher of rigging something. She didn't and I probably went overboard, but I would be damned if I was not going to stand up for my children!!!! My mom had a child very young and we always thought she was pregnant before marriage but we figured out she probably got pregnant right after she ran away with her boyfriend. That made my bro feel much better to know he wasn't illegitimate!!!
The thing I find funny is in my mind I would think back in the late 1800s and the early 1900s none of that stuff happened......but we all know it did.....we just looked at those old photos of the women with necklines up to their ears and dresses to the floor.....never smiled...........how could they run out back and get laid in the barn???
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How horrible, such an insensitive invasion on your private life like that.
No one ever has the right to treat someone like this, not in the name of love, or parenting, or morality or any other excuse someone tries to use to legitimise abusive acting out.
Whenever I hear about behaviour or arguments like this it makes me angry and sad- but some of the politicians and church-leaders and community figures will still say these things today.
Any attempt to humiliate or embarrass or shock another is abusive.
It was their issues they were really revealing of course, not yours but you couldn't know that for a long time and I am sure it scared and scarred you.
Suicide seems like the ultimate response to unvoiced agony, unfortunately it is so loud and so far-reaching that it hurts everyone around for a long time.
Good to have you here Kate.
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Thank you all.
I am very new here, but I feel like FINALLY I have found friends who understand what I went through.
My younger brother and sister worship Saint Mom, but their experience with her was not at all like mine.
KATE
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Keel posting kate,
This is a great place.
xxoo
Izzy
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Arrrrg,, It baffles me and angers me to hear this. Such creepy people out there and still out there. You little voices shh'd for appearance sake.
My daughter and her friend were taking knife point when they were 8yrs old in the woods by a 17 year old neighbor boy.
He did nothing to them Thank God. He was prosecuted and put in boot camp due to the age difference. My daughter and her friend were taken into the court room separately and told they didn't have to look at him just point. They both looked at him in his eyes and said with their finger out. That's him. I felt sorry for his mother she was crying and telling us she was sorry. He had been terribly abused by his real father.
Love Deb
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Testing . . .1 . . .2 . . .3
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Are you experiencing a technical problem on the board Kate??
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Yes, Leah, I did have a computer glitch. I think . . .
I have no formal computer training, and this particular website has mystified me a time or two.
I am glad to share experiences with you as it seems like we went through pretty much the same things.
My original post was the first time I shared this with anyone. I was so ashamed or forced to feel ashamed.
I have a brother and sister who worship our mother and don't understand why I don't. Well, they weren't raised the way I was.
Too much pain to post anymore, but I think that that is a good thing. For so many years I didn't feel anything . . .
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If you need any help re: computer just shout up.
Too much pain to post anymore, but I think that that is a good thing. For so many years I didn't feel anything . . .
Understand how you feel ((( Kate)))
Yes, it is a good thing, the numbness is wearing off, just as mine did, so now you are at the place of being able to slowly and gently work through your pain and angst, whilst on your journey of realization and healing.
So I encourage you to gently take a step at a time and gently toddle a long a bit.
Post as and when you feel able to.
My very best wishes,
Leah xx
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Rod McKuen wrote a poem once. It went something like this:
"It's nice to open up the heart and feel a little pain sometimes. It proves you're still alive."
I am amazed at the anger and pain inside of me.
You are all a blessing to me. Thank you.
I don't want to work through the anger and pain, but I won't be whole until I do.
KATE
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Wow all this has resonated with me massively... here are my contributions:
When I was about 9 or ten I was out playing with my friend and we were touched by a man... we went to tell our parents and I literally remember my mother brushing me away with a broom..
When I was bullied at 12 or 13 my mother sided with the bully....
when I was 19 or 20 I too was thinking of going on the pill. My mother found my diary and nearly had a breakdown tearing it to shreds....... I had to live in my bedroom for a week...
I got pregnant very young... My mum had me married within 6 weeks..in the dress she chose at the place she chose weith the rings she chose. Yes she paid for it all.. then again so did I!!!!! Oh by the way.. she insisted my brother was best man..
When it came to choosing Godparents she informed me that I could not possibly have the people we chose as they were not religious enough. It would have to be my parents or nothing... Then she proceeded to invite her drunken unreligious friends to be godparents also.. They read a prayer that they had taken off their toilet wall..
so I am with you all xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Spyralle x
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Yes, spiryalle, our experiences are similiar,
Everything you say resonates with me also.
Since I was my mother's target, I thought that there was something wrong with me since she seemed to get along with everyone else in the family but me. On the other hand, I got along with everyone but her.
Pain, pain, layers of pain.
Sinful, shameful.
I can't change them, so I have to walk away.
Please keep posting and helping me.
KATE
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I found this when I was reading something. Wonder if this would really help letting things go.
In her story, Kristin Armstrong writes on her symbolic "letting go:"
"I decided that as a visual person I needed to make a visible statement. I walked up the steps to the lookout point carrying a fistful of helium balloons, one balloon for each ugly thing that I needed to purge. I must have looked ridiculous, like a woman who missed a birthday party, but I walked all the way to the farthest edge and sat down. I said a prayer and named each thing (blame, guilt, regret, fear…) as I let it go, watching each colored balloon swirl away until it became a speck and disappeared into the horizon...Only by learning how to let go do we learn how to hold on to what matters. It's as though the shadows created by loss illuminate what remains; the contrast helps us see with great clarity and appreciation the things we were meant to do, the people who are still with us, and those we love deeply who also love us back."
Love Deb
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I just told the live-in boyfriend to leave.
He asked if he had done something wrong. I told him that he had not but that our relationship was a mistake and that I wanted to be single again.
He did not seem surprised or argue with me. Maybe he is just as miserable as I am.
I want him, but I also want to be without him.
Input?
KATE
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Kate,
Well thats OK to want him and not want him. I think it's a healthy step. You both need to figure out whats going on with both of you and separate it is probably the wise thing. You need to step outside the picture (both of you) and see whats going on (on the inside). He has some very (real issues) that he needs to deal with before he can be good to anyone Including himself. Right now it's a self destruct relationship (I believe). I think our feelings/thoughts become clouded. You have to step outside it as if you were an on looker and see it clearly. Sometimes you can't sort your feelings/thoughts when you are in the midst of it. This might be a very good thing Kate for both of you. Don't look at it as the ending. Look at it as a beginning. As hard as it may be to do. You might have a lot of resentment that he just moved in with you and once again you feel you are a caretaker. Take a step out and back.
I use to feel like I had a Parent/child relationship rather then an adult/adult one.
You are not responsible for him. He is a grown man/child. This may be the best thing and he will forced to grow up.
Love
Deb
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Thanks Deb.
Right now he says that he will leave when he finds a place to stay, but we do have homeless facilities. He hasn't had a paycheck since August, and supporting him is not my responsibility.
I don't want to be cruel, just want to box his stuff up and put it on the sidewalk.
My home. My life. My call.
It is time to stop being voiceless.
Everyone post. I need some words of wisdom and encouragement.
KATE
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((((((((((Kate))))))))))
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Thank you storm.
This really hasn't been a truthful relationship.
Two hurting people hooking up, for sure. But not truthful.
I want to end it with as little pain as possible.l
KATE
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Kate,
As I recall you did not invite him to 'move in' with you, he settled himself in after being been made homeless by his landlord? I think I have it right, if not, oops, please correct me.
How about placing on the table phone numbers / details of accommodation available to him??
Basically, he has outstayed his welcome, your hospitality has expired, you cannot meet the additional costs of giving him shelter and food, but, there is help out there for him to seek, find and place himself into.
Thee is work out there, temporary or permanent, there is always something available as a stop gap until one finds something better.
No feeling guilty, you have done enough. He is not your child, he is not your responsibility.
Time to concentrate on you now because you are worth it.
He does not seem worth the drain on your resources and personal well being that you are forfeiting.
Rather than Enabling ..... you will be Abling - him : to get up and go do something productive with his life. And that is the best thing for him. Which is a great kindness to him and for him. (though I doubt he will see it that way!)
And most certainly this is the best thing by far for you dear Kate.
Very best wishes,
Leah xx
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Thank you all.
Yes, Leah, John did sort of move himself in. He had been spending a lot of time with me when I learned that he had been illegally evicted from his apartment.
And then he quit his job.
So in a few months I woke up one day to find a homeless, jobless man living with me. Which had never been my intent.
Reviewing his history, I doubt if he has ever been self-supporting for any length of time. I love him in my way but, as you said, he is draining the life out of me. I look back to when I met him almost two years ago, and my life has clearly and drastically gone downhill.
Then there is the sex thing. My n mother more or less made it her job for several years when I was a teenager to see to it that I did not have sex. And I made it my job to see to it that I did.
My father liked to go to a local racetrack on Saturday nights. If I was not at a school or church function or babysitting, my mother insisted that I come alone so she could keep an eye on me.
I would meet a boyfriend there, and we would go and have sex in the fields surrounding the racetrack hearing the loudspeaker discuss the race. Sex was never so good as lying there knowing that my n mother thought that she was keeping me from having sex.
I think that sex might be disproportionatelly important to me, and the more forbidden the better.
Does that have anything to do with voicelessness?
KATE
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Kate,
I support you in not supporting him.
I support you in exploring why sex needs to be forbidden to be fun.
I heard someone, or read something, once, that made sense to me.
Boys are raised to be brave, and battle, and take physical risks, and test rules.
Girls are raised to be submissive and compliant and stay tidy and follow rules.
So girls' healthy rebellion needs a place to go...and the culture still doesn't provide enough creative innovative opportunities for girls to experience their own power. Instead, girls develop a lot of covert "anti" behavior. Anti Mom is a lot of it.
But it ends up being anti-themselves. Reckless sex, or giving up too much of yourself for sex, is an anti-thing, I think.
That ring any bells?
I am not happy with this period of celibacy lasting so long...but I am happier outside of a reciprocally respectful relationship than I was in bad ones. A man who takes financial advantage of you is not being respectful.
Hops
Hops
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Yes, Hopalong, I do have a lot of anti-Mom behavior. I call it knee jerk. My mother could make a perfectly good suggestion, and I would reject it as a knee jerk reaction.
As children, my sister would decide she wanted something of mine, generally a toy or a doll.
My mother would tell me to give it to her because, "She's a little girl, and you're a big girl." (age difference 18 months)
When I was 10-years-old I was going to boycott Christmas, just hand my gifts over unopened to my sister because I realized that she already had every one of my Christmas gifts from the year before.
I started an affair with my sister's husband just about three years ago.
And I would look across the bed at him and think something like, "OK Sister, now I have something of yours, and there is nothing you or mother can do about it."
Sick or healing?
I don't know, but the sex has been incredible. And it does make family get-togethers far more juicy.
I don't know if it has to do with voicelessness or just that we were never a very physical family. I was in my early 20's the only time I remember my mother hugging me, and I involuntarily stiffened and flinched. Now she kisses and hugs other family members at get-togethers, but she hasn't touched me since that day.
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I had a boyfriend that did not work and always had an excuse for everything but eventually things will get ugly. Better to break it off before the big stuff starts happening!
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Kate,
Are you still sleeping with your sister's husband?
Hon, you are accomplishing way more payback than you intended, I think.
Remember your sister was a child, and not responsible for the fact that your mother distorted your relationship with her. It's not your sister's fault that your Nmom doted on her. Your NMom set you up to hate your sister. It's not your sister's fault for existing. It's not her fault that you suffered.
Your NMom set it up that way.
When your sister finds out, you will hurt worse than you do now.
Is there some way you can talk to her husband and explain to him that you have to stop it?
Do you have a good therapist you can talk about these things with? You've got to find the pain underneath the anger and acting out, and release it in SAFE COMPANY. (Your BIL is not safe company. Neither are your sister or mother. A good T is.)
Once it's processed enough, it won't drive your actions any more, and you can have a more peaceful life.
Hops
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Kate,
With regard to your first post here on your thread topic, in effect your mother set you on the path of a 'No Win' situation.
"by assuming responsibiltiy for the child's or young person's thoughts and actions (in Nagging or Control) the adult is forcing the child to become either, more dependent or rebellious."
With regard to your last post and Hops reply ............I consider that at present you have your finger firmly placed on your own personal "Self Destruct" button, but, deep down you realize this and are seeking how to go about releasing your finger from the button.
Leah x
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Not always easy to find a therapist;
About a year ago, when the bf stole and forged one of my checks and left, I tried to get therapy.
I have no insurance and not a lot of money. I kept being told that I didn't qualify for various government programs as I was not suicidal.
Finally I talked with a neighbor who said, "I'm going to take you to Lifeways (our mental health program). Tell them you need services. When they say no, sit down and cry. Then you are in crisis and they have to take you."
They put me on a bus for the hospital for tests. Never have seen the results, but I keep getting the bills. Walked out of the hospital with no way home.
But it got me 6 weeks of counselling.
With a woman who meant well but was not a good fit. She kept talking about codependency and recommending to me books that I read 10 years ago . . .
She said that I could apply for another six weeks if I felt I needed it.
Much easier just to f--- my sister's husband.
I think that when you are voiceless passive-aggressiveness is a pretty natural result.
Haven't seen my sister in over a year (we share an occasional email). Have seen my mother twice in the last year, both by accident (we live in the same town).
Get all the family news from the brother-in-law. :D
The brother-in-law treats me better than anyone else in this family.
KATE
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Kate,
The first thing that strikes me is that you are soooooooooooooo hurting yourself. Absolutly nothing good can come from your affair with your BIL. I do not say this from a moral standpoint but from concern for you. I presume your sister does not know about the affiar so he is lying and cheating on her, as you are. So what are you doing sleeping with a man you KNOW to be a liar and a cheat. It is like you both are playing a very destructive game. You can only loose from this. It feels like you a form of self abuse.
For what it is worth I dont believe this has anything to do with your sister. I have a sense that it is you expressing your anger. There are many ways to let go of this anger which will not hurt you. Underneath the anger is so much hurt, that is what you need to look at.
As far as BF is concerned. Honey, you dont need to carry anyone, seems like whatever energy and money you have you need for yourself. Are there any programmes where you can get cheap therapy. Is there a university which has a counselling programme in your town. Often final year students, under supervision, work cheaply with clients.
I am concerned that you are continuing your mothers game of abuse by hurting yourself. I have no doubt you get a rush when with BIL but remember for each high there is a corresponding low.
Take care of yourself,
axa
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I can't let him go yet.
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(((((((((((Kate)))))))))))))))
Why can't you let him go. What does he give you???
Spyralle x
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We have a lot of history together. He was a boyfriend of mine in 1976, and I introduced him to my sister. Because I didn't think we were that good a fit, and I thought that they would hit it off.
She doesn't know that we used to sleep together before their marriage. We didn't hook back up for 27 years. From what I hear their sex life is virtually nonexistent, and they stay together for financial reasons having a home, acreage, vehicles in common.
As he puts it, "If your sister ever finds out, it's going to be pretty expensive." Wasn't is Elizabeth Taylor who said something like, "You can't make a happy man stray."?
In the beginning -- three years ago -- I was divorced, celibate, and too self conscious about a weight gain to put myself back on the market. But I felt comfortable and safe with him. Because we had been together before. He wanted me desperately which was/is very flattering.
Now, three years down the road, we have explored our sexual fantasies together. That's a very strong bond.
I have a mother and sister who do not return my phone calls. I get an occasional note or email. I wasn't invited to Thanksgiving, Christmas, or my niece's college graduation last year. I get all my family information from the bil. Including the times that family members come to visit but I am not included. Maybe that's a lot of it. There is a smug feeling of satisfaction knowing things they don't want me to know. Passive-aggressive.
But he is kind to me, and he does care about me. He is a good man in many ways.
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Hi Kate,
What about the other bf who moved himself into your home? Has he gone now?
Leah x
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OK Kate I am trying to work this one out.... It makes me very sad Why wouldn't a happy man stray if he could have two women for the price of one...
These are the things you say he gives you:
A sense of smug satisfaction
someone with whom to share your sexual fantasies
someone who wants you when you think you are not good enough for anyone else Or let me try and do a bit of a rephrase there.... someone who knows how vulnerable you are...
Now I'm gonna ask you again what does he give you
Please think about it,
Love
Spyralle x