Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on April 02, 2007, 08:56:34 AM
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Hi all,
TT invited me to share more about my awkward feelings around money..
It's old stuff, resentments about class, equating money with cruelty (not that this is always fair, but it was my childhood in a private school as the scholarship kid..) and finding old insecurities come up that might interfere.
In specific, I attended the retreat this w/e on a partial scholarship, and after a lovely talk with one friend I've considered very close, I mentioned it, and then we drifted apart. That evening I was seized with insecurity and decided she must have thought I mentioned that because I was hinting that I needed her help with my new side business, so I wrote her that and said never occurred to me to ask, and she wrote back a kind of stiff email that she hadn't been thinking that at all.
So I felt humiliated and I felt shame, and it's old stuff, and it does get set off by money at times. So many of my female peers are at comfortable stages of their lives economically and I'm not, but I am trying to change that with my business dream. I am angry with myself that my confidence dipped after I talked to her about it, and she is quite wealthy and suddenly that intruded into my easy security with her. Then I found myself feeling left out, and feeling needy.
So that made me clutchy I think and that's why I starting projecting what I thought she was thinking, which was of course wrong, and now I'm fearful of having lost a friend.
I am trying to deal honestly with the fact that I'm lonely and do constructive things about it. I think I will be able to. But that's what's coming up right now, and for some reason, money issues make me feel more isolated than I have to be.
I am often sensitive to feeling I am not included in many social things, because so many folks are couples. And this friend, in particular, doesn't seem to have much time for me. And I think that hit me this weekend.
Sigh, I'm not being very grownup right now.
Hops
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(((((( Hops ))))))
~ ditto ~
Leah xx
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Hi Hops,
Sorry to hear that you are having some difficulties at the moment. I have been thinking about lonliness a lot lately. There are times when I get twinges of it, lucky its only twinges, but when I do I think of the past few years with XN and the incredible cut off lonely feelings I felt when I was with him. I have developed a strategy, firstly when I do feel lonely I realise it WILL pass as does everything else. Secondly I realise(now that I am in adult mode) that it is up to me to do something about it. Sometimes I choose to stay with it which I find difficult but I also acknowledge the lonliness is in me it has not got to do with the external world. When I have this feeling I always seem to revert to the four year old who feels abandoned in the world. My learning is that the only one who can resuce the four yr old is the adult me, everything else is a distraction.
I look at a lot of the couples I know and I rarely see any intimacy. I think it was you suggested I read the book Fear of Intimacy. This I have found so useful. I spend a lot of time alone and I am beginning to see that I like this. My tolerance for psedo intimacy has all but disappeared. I think many of us here have been thrown into a place where we have to face our lonliness and aloneness, it is painful but I am left with the feeling I would not have it any other way. This is the only way for me.
With regard to your friend. My guess is that this is just a blip in the landscape and an opportunity to create real intimacy.
Thinking of you and hope you are feeling less alone today.
axa
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Hiya Hops:
I'm fearful of having lost a friend
You humbled yourself by being vunerable and sharing your thoughts/fears with someone you consider a friend and she responded stiffly. Any friend who drops you for such a thing is no friend at all and never was.
Shamed? Humiliated? For saying what was bothering you? Wouldn't a friend try to reassure you and encourage you by at least noting your honesty and desire to speak openly?
Think about what you might have said if the tables were turned and it were you with money and she the one who said what you did. Do you think you would have given a similar stiff reply? Is it really the money that determines the response?
Re loneliness: Are there any single groups in your area Hops? I was a member of a couple of single parent groups (years ago) and met some wonderful people, had a blast too! Maybe something like that would be a way to help stem some of your lonliness a little? You might meet others in similar financial circumstances there too? Mabye there will even be others who are trying to do constructive things to improve their lives and find ways out of their social isolation?
Sela
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Hi Hops, kind gentle soul warrior and support to the broken hearted champion of the disenfranchized:
If you are feeling lonely there really is something wrong with the world.
You dd nothing wrong with the wealthy lady. I think you were a friendly puppy who barked up the wrong tree. This interchange says a lot more about her, than about you. Her stiff and starchy rebuff was so typical of a parent who doesn't see and doesn't hear. Unfortuneately, these characters are out there and one can get a cool wind of indifference just when you don't need it. It does make one feel small.
Are you starting a business? That is so brave of you and I am happy to hear it.
Older single women are marginalized. There is no doubt about it. Feeling this is quite differenct from logically understanding it. You have so much heart and are such a beautiful and wise speaker. You have a voice and it resounds.
I am really baffled that someone would refuff you. Pleeeeeeeze don't take it personally. I guess she is some kind of case of arrested development.
Lots and lots of love to you, I think you are wonderful.
You have a place in the old trouts club anytime.
Sea storm
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Hops,
Have to run off and take my mom to the eye doctor. In the meantime, I'm sending sincere hugs((((((((((((((Hops+teartracks))))))))))))))))) to you, a very special friend.
tt
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Hops - you bring up an issue that is very significant to me. Having grown up in a wealthy family and having lived that life until my early thirties. I learned the hard way that people with money do not want to know that you don't have money. They may be friends with you on a level but when it comes to doing things that cost money suddenly you are persona non grata. Of course this is not universal but then again, pretty close.
I wish you great luck with your business venture. That is definitely the way out. I am on the verge of doing the same thing. I am tired of being left out but I am also clearly changing my attitude about myself - I am learning to "be myself" for the first time - not worrying about what others think about my interactions and it is actually working. It is sort of miraculous to me. - GS
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Leah, I'm sorry you're in the same boat, though I wasn't sure whether it was loneliness or not feeling very grown up. Either way, thanks for the hugs and here's one back. ((((Leah))))
Axa,
Thank you. "The only adult who can rescue the 4 y/o me is the adult me." And doing something about it. You are so right. Thanks for your starch and maturity. I need to re-read Escape from Intimacy myself. I think I've chosen several friends who in fact have trouble being close, so it makes sense that I would feel bereft of intimacy if I only focus on them. I was reminding myself today that there are surely other women in my church who would welcome a friend who does want to spend time. So I need to reach out and be that friend, not chase the less available.
Sela,
You helped me see that her response was part of the situation, not just my mistaken projection. It wasn't loving and reassurance, more like "you're incorrect"...ow. She and I have had heartfelt talks at times, and I had thought we were quite close. But I think she prefers things always light, so I can stop expecting something deeper. And sure, I could check out some other groups and organizations. No reason to put ALL my eggs in the church basket.
Sea Storm,
Thank you for seeing it, seeing something on both sides. She in fact is the friend who also has a very very N mother, and that's what we bonded over. But a single-issue friendship could falter. She didn't mean to be hurtful, I'm sure. (I like being a friendly puppy, and there are plenty of trees!)
Big hugs back, (((((((((TT))))))))) Feeling much better. Hope you're doing better too.
GS, it's true, the adage about people with money not wanting to know about the realities of those who don't. I swear, if I ever accumulate any, I wouldn't want to be that way. I'm thrilled to hear you're feeling so much more self-respect. Bravo. And for your business, too. Mine's just a dream for a side income, for now, but who knows? It is a catchy idea and could grow. Slowwwwly.
Thanks, all. I am always so comforted to be here.
love,
Hops
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thanks Hops,
It's the loneliness and all.
What GS said is so true, when you are in a position in society, then it is removed, due to divorce.
Where do you fit in??
Friends have husbands.
50 years of age, gave my whole life for others, FOO, husband and son, now alone.
Not feeling sorry for myself.
But have had an awful day today. Slapped in the face by my next door neighbour, who phoned me from her workplace, to give me verbals demands and abuse. I was trembling and in shock afterwards.
I do hope heaven is better than life on earth :)
Hope I get there :)
Night all.
Leah xx
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Leah - are you talking about a literal slap in the face as in assault or are you talking about a figurative slap as in abuse? What in the world happened? No wonder you are upset! How horrible to have such a contretemps with someone you must live next to. My heart goes out to you. - GS
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Hi Hops,
You have had so many good responses here. I tend to agree with Sela. It sounds like she is not a very dear friend if she can turn cold like that over something so small (or frankly turn cold like that period). I really can't imagine doing that to someone, can you?
Lately I have not felt as lonely. Part of it is that I have been taking Henry out (as you suggested) and walking to the neighbors. He got to have a playdate and I got to chat, in addition to meeting a new person with a cute pug on the way. I'm not very good myself at dealing with lonliness, so I don't know what to suggest besides getting out and about.
(((((((((((hops)))))))))))
Love, Beth
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I think I'll be getting a wee dog I can actually walk, at some point.
And walk that little can't-pull-too-hard pooch I will!
Thanks for the reminder, Beth.
Just thinking of you and your Henry makes me smile.
With a face like THAT (his) :D, how could he not be a friend-magnet?
Hops
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Hops,
not worrying about what others think about my interactions and it is actually working. It is sort of miraculous to me.
I think what GS says is key to walking our authentic path among the masses.
I rarely get lonely so I'll beg off giving advice about that.
I hope your side business goes swimmingly.
tt
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((((((((((((((((((Leah))))))))))))))))))
tt
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Hops - they're not friends if you cannot be who you truly are in their presence.
There is no shame in having less money than someone else, but great shame in having no compassion for those less fortunate than oneself.
What shame there is, here, belongs to your 'friend'; what poverty there was, was also hers; you have nothing at all to be ashamed of, but she has revealed a terrible miserliness of the soul.
You can even feel compassion for her - you are rich indeed.
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Thank you, Stormy, for your spirited protection.
Bless yer heart.
Hops
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Amen storm. That is a brilliant response.
Love, Beth
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I think too ...loneliness, like happiness, or any strong feeling really....is a state of mind. I mean, you can't feel lonely if you don't think you're lonely.
An old man once told me: "You'll never be lonely as long as you have a good book!"
I think there is great wisdom in his words. They helped me anyhow.
Take good care of you Hops.
:D Sela
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(((((((((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Ditto
Hops - they're not friends if you cannot be who you truly are in their presence.
love to you and the kind compassionate heart of yours
m
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Thanks, (((((((Sela))))))))) and (((((((((((Moon))))))))))).
Ja, I know. I think the wealthy friend's distance was a trigger for a lot of childhood feelings when I was rejected by girls at school. Simple as that.
Anyway, in her reply she also said, I wonder if you worry too much.
I'm sure I do. I just wrote back, keeping it light, and said it had been a visit from the insecurity debbil, and I was booting his hairy keister to the curb. No further response, so I assume we're not going to talk about it any more. I think I'll leave the ball in her court now.
Sigh. Dang. Well anyway, I have taken to heart all the love and kindness here, and I know there's plenty more Out There, so I just need to get off my hairless keister and go mingle! I'll find ways.
thanks, all. More than I can say.
love,
Hops
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Hey Hops,
that business about 'you worry too much' is right out of the same chapter as 'you think too much',
'you care too much', 'you're too conscientious', 'you're too sensitive'.
Basically, whenever someone responds to a genuine problem with any sentence structured as "You ___ too much", their real message is "I'm going to blame you for your situation and leave you completely on your own with it, but I don't have the decency to come right out and admit that."
Major, major red flag.
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Hops
"chasing the less available" WOW that really hit a note for me. I think it may be common to most of us here. It seems that I have a pattern of the less available they are the more energy I put into the relationship..... past tense now methinks! Is it not what we play out with Ns. I have noticed it in other areas of my life also which has been like a bolt from the blue. Always chasing after the rainbow only to find it is behind the next hill. Well, I am not sure how to identify the "emotionally unavailable" but from that wonderful book some things have enlightened me in some ways. The initial contact seems to give some flags if we are open. I noted that your friend has an N parent also........... while this gives you common ground, part of me wants to have relationships/friendships which are not contaminated by N speak. In the book the author talks about the pseudo intimacy, the way people tell all on first meeting, its as if to set up some connection which is not necessarily linked with the authentic self........... not sure if that makes any sense. Example, first date with XN he told me we could go and live in Africia and I could have an orphanage and take care of babies with Aids. This I did tell him I thought was weird considering he hardly knew me but he protested he did. Well he knew the picture of me he wanted. Intimacy takes time. It builds slowly, I do not have much experience of it I must admit and it is about the real seperate people meeting each other. Probably rambling here not sure where I am going but hope it makes some sense.
axa
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Thanks, Storm and CB.
I have a feeling it may all have been more along the lines of what CB suggests, that she really felt awkward and I misinterpreted her look. But her emailed reply was too cursory for comfort, so I'll take that as warning not to be emotionally needy around her.
It doesn't mean I don't value her friendship, but that I want to hold onto it very loosely now.
That's all to the good anyway.
CB, thanks for the thoughtful questions. It's aligned with childhood social rejection from wealthy LITTLE girls at the private school where my mother taught. Much as I can and do form close bonds with women when we talk about real and deep things (as we do here), I find it harder in the aspect of church that's just social. Interesting that I have no fear of being in the pulpit, but women's casual gatherings are more difficult.
Class and money stuff is ooooooold. This is a town I found very hurtful as a child...very full of aristocrats, country clubs, people with estates, etc. And racist and snobbish. When I encounter anything resembling snobbery as an adult, the same string gets plucked.
Very good idea to heal that within myself. I think maybe my little side earnings idea will help. I'll be selling to the well-to-do, and anticipate myself very happy in that position. (Maybe liberating some of their excess cash is part of the cure!)
hugs, and I hope to think more constructively on this...
Hops
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Hops,
I went to a college chock full of mega-wealthy, celebrity or once-removed types. And I was a nobody. And sometimes people figured it out. And not only was I not rich, I lived in the filthy hell-hole my parents created. Only once did someone throw it in my face, but it was enough to just about kill me. I also didn't have the lithe body that the girls had (or the liposuction tales to go with...).
I'm mostly OK nowadays, but sometimes that fear resurfaces... that I just don't "belong" and people will figure it out.
I think, having established my own identity and created the life we have now... I am confident no matter where I am now. I do, sometimes, realize that I am not part of the "in crowd" with the military wives, and that is OK, because they annoy me. Still, sometimes I feel left out.
I agree with storm about the red flag...and I would go even further back in the thread to where people talked about if you are not comfortable with someone, they can't be a good friend. I have some friends that say off-the-wall stuff and get into ideas I don't believe in, but I just nod my head and let it go at that. I wouldn't make them feel bad about their ideas.
OK, I am rambling and not sure if any of this helps.
Love, Beth
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Thanks, Beth (and you too Axa, sorry I overlooked you).
Beth I think you get it. Same time, I think my commenting about my concern over the money gap between us touched a sore place in her. She's a good person, gives her all at church, etc. But she's also pretty materialistic without saying so...just in her house, etc. So perhaps I unintentionally made her feel guilty.
I don't want to and can't monsterize her for whatever her mistake might've been. After all, she's the friend I was so scared of losing this summer when she had cancer. It was just an unexpected awkwardness and I felt solely responsible.
You all made me feel a lot better just by pointing out that there are two people in a relationship, and as I became aware of my projection/blunder, I learned from you that she could've responded more reassuringly.
That's okay now, though. With your help, I'm reassuring myself! 'm trying to just let it go now, so we'll be more at ease when we are together again. We will be, at church at least.
hugs all,
Hops
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Hops - I think you found her limit. I encourage you to keep her as a friend who has a limit in this area. But aren't we all limited to some degree? We just have to pick and choose our friends according to what we share with them and what we need in each individual friendship. I am sorry she could not share that concern of yours. I know it hurts.
I love the way you process things. I admire your strength, your willingness to be vulnerable even though there are costs to that, and your ever-present determination to forge forward and continue healing. I admire those parts of you Hops. - GS
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I think a lot of people ( more so here than I remember in England too ) are worried to have anything asked of them frankly, this great Christian culture and sense of community is a bit of a myth. In England where there is much less religion and community I never was at a loss for help in times of difficulty. In fact people who never bothered with me would step up and be spontaneously kind. Here it's a taboo to need anything unfortunately.
People are worried in case others who need something become a nuisance or a burden but also it's insecurity- not wanting to see another side to life where things go wrong and people aren't perfect.
I'm waffling Hops but the gist is- it's not you.
It's perfectly legitimate to ask for help, and of course there's a chance people will say no or back off. They could say it with more grace and love of course...
The reaction to that is what triggers old feelings of insecurity or shame.
If she had said yes, i'll help you would have felt strong and empowered to have had the courage to ask.
Keep the courage to ask- for everyone who has nothing spare to give there is someone else who will gladly advise or sympathise.
As for single life, mine looks a lot brighter this week despite having checked my disastrous last month finances and they're low: one of my friends told me her sex partner pays to stay overnight, another went back to a severely abusive husband because she was worried about money...
How can women feel so disempowered to suffer so someone will take care of them- so lacking in a sense of what being taken care of means too, to think that financial security is so important. I'd rather muddle through with my independence and true security. It'll be okay even if I'm not well off, money is so little in the face of real stuff.
My ex offered me half of a windfall he just got, i graciously declined- it'll only be a source of irritation or pain later. I did say can I have a few hundred extra dollars over the summer to entertain our son, and he seemed pleased I'd asked for that. So there was a balance.
Frankly I'd rather take my precarious chances and wobble a bit from time to time than accept dependence in a wrong situation.
And don't worry about losing a friend- friends don't have to be perfect. I sometimes take a break if my projecting is getting in the way, or their issues are, and most of my friendships soldier on. The ones that don't were just for a passing season I guess! Or sometimes they come back way later.
Don't worry. You are loved.
Good luck with your business- you can do it!
***
For some feminist comedic relief I just got this in my inbox:
The World's Shortest Fairy Tale...
Once upon a time, a guy asked a girl "Will you marry me?" The girl said,
"NO!" And the girl lived happily ever after and went shopping, dancing,
camping, drank martinis, always had a clean house, never had to cook, did
whatever the hell she wanted, never argued, didn't get fat, travelled more,
had many fantastic lovers and only cooked the things she liked to eat, and
always had money. She went to the theatre, never watched sports, never wore
fricken lacy lingerie that went up her ass, had high self esteem, never
cried or yelled, felt and looked fabulous in sweat pants, and burped, swore,
and farted all the time.
THE END
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Thankyou thank you, Write.
Very encouraging and reality-based, balanced wisdom.
I do appreciate you!
I love your attitude about independence too.
Bravo.
Hops
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Write,
LOVED YOUR STORY........trying to live it myself, oops excuse me (guess what that was!)
About money. I have worked hard all my life and own my own house. I choose to work on contracts so I do not have a regular income. Somehow I prefer it this way. XN was very wealthy but interestingly enough when we were together I gave up contracts to be with him so that HE could make more more. He got richer I got poorer........ in monetary terms that is. For some strange reason I never worry about money. I have had hard times financially but have managed and have faith in my resourcefulness. Xn used to tell me have faith in him regarding money...........well that was a dumb move on my part. Gone are the holidays........ well I can pay for myself. Gone is the big fancy house, which I never liked. Gone is his money, which he was generous with as long as it was what he wanted and i got a stressfree life.
XN's xwife is back with him, playing happy families and being a source of supply. She told me once that her psychiatrist told her that she was married to a man who could not bear to see her happy.......... and she went back. She has choosen not to make a life for herself or work. She was waiting in the wings for the cracks to appear in our relationship and as soon as they started to show she was back in there like a shot. I am very grateful to her because I see her as my insurance policy. As long as she is supply he will leave me alone. She has had psychotic episodes and seemed to me very "strange" to say the least. I think living with xn for such a long time must have contributed to her mental health problems. He has not changed and she is back for more. How sad is that but long may it last.
About muddling along on my own I sometimes get a longing for a partner and then I check the reality and that longing disappears very very quickly. Yesterday I realised that the past year of my life has been like a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show. I have thought about writing about it but the more I ponder the experience the more nuts it seems. Nothing like a bit of distance to give one perspective.
axa