Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: cats paw on April 11, 2007, 08:12:45 AM
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I'm interested in knowing how those of you have reconciled your faith - whatever that faith might be- including the ideas of "honoring your mother and father", "loving one another", "the middle way" , etc. with the actions you have chosen to take in your relationships.
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Hi Cat and Welcome,
I don't think I have quite reconciled it... I still feel like I should respect them... but at the same time I avoid them. This is a very good question.
Let me chew on it for a while.
How are you doing?
Love, Beth
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Here's how I've reasoned it out:
The requirement to honor and cherish goes in both directions. A child who fails to properly honor a parent can be forgiven and taught, since they are immature and not fully formed. A parent who mistreats and abuses a child may also be immature and not fully formed, but they are also responsible for deliberately and seriously damaging a growing human being.
Parenthood has two components: physical and emotional. Physical parenthood involved conceiving, giving birth, changing diapers, feeding, bathing, providing clothing, medical care, shelter. Emotional parenthood involves loving, caring, teaching, nurturing, correcting, protecting, encouraging, admonishing, supporting, releasing.
I have learned to accept that someone can be a parent in the physical sense but not in the emotional sense, some parents can parent well in the emotional sense but not, attimes, in the physical sense [job loss, catastrophe - 'you have to stay with Grandma for awhile, mommy has to work in another state, there are no jobs here and I want you to finish school where you are']. Others parent well in neither sense, and some parent well in both senses.
They are all parents, but by no stretch of the imagination are they all equal.
Again, I consider the admonition to honor a parent is matched and balanced by the admonition to properly care for and raise one's children. If my parent sees no reason to care for me or treat me lovingly, they have told me where I stand. Accepting that, and reacting appropriately to it, DOES honor them, because it respects their choice.
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This is very hard for me because on one hand, my parents give and give and give....................but on the other hand they take....well, I should say my mom takes - my dad gives. My mom gives clothes, money, stuff................but she takes away self esteem, she makes you feel like your decisions are stupid, she uses sarcasm, she manipulates, she sulks, she steals the spotlight, etc. etc. So how do you honor someone who as stolen your self worth from you by undermining everything you do.......you never feel like a decision you make is a good one. You never feel like a letter you write or a memo you type is right. I remember my dad telling me when they were first married and he was out of the country for the military and he wrote her a really nice letter. She corrected the spelling and grammar and sent it back to him. I write a memo at work, and she corrects it and I have to retype it.
How do you "honor" that? I "honor" her by stay away from her. I cannot be in the same room with her for long before I can't stand her. And it says right in the Bible that to hate is like murder. That is what I am dealing with now!! I feel like a murderer.
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Respect and honor and compassion can be given even if another cannot receive these things or possibly is not able to understand they are not giving these in return.
(or may know good darn well whats up)
I am concerned with what is in my heart each individual can only work on these within.
The requirement to honor and cherish goes in both directions. If my parent sees no reason to care for me or treat me lovingly, they have told me where I stand.
Because about a year ago I was in a desperate search to be released from pain and suffering....
I went in search of myself in depth : my childhood was filled with great wonder at times and also filled with physical abuse.
Then the trauma of my twin and his all too early passing.
All the years of my life I have thought and given honor and respect to my father I was taught to care for my parents emotions first.And I did so...................
I do not think they realized it but I did have one conversation with my dear mom when she did speak about her and my father not being as good parents as she wished.....
I never spoke of the physical violence done to me to her......But I did with twin brother as early as eight when we were hiding some where saying to each other when we grow up we will never do this to our children.
My Doctor said the kind of physical repeated violence my twin and I endured was the major factor in triggering bipolar.....
I believe in Creator and that light is within all beings.I respect that light within my father I believe he does not and has not ever respected my light It does seem to be that way.
Does that mean I want to hold bad feelings in my heart no and I do not......
It is just very sad.
Know where you stand but do not take sides.
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Freedom and bondage are two concepts and beyond is inner peace and good will toward others.
love to you
moonlight
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CatsPaw - for years I simply turned away from the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother." I could not make sense of it. But in recent years I have struggled with it because I believe there is some meaning in it and that it is broad enough to include wretched parents. If that is true then what in the world could it mean "to honor thy wretched father and wretched mother, that it may go well with you."
The sense I have gotten out of it is much of what Moonlight writes. The key seems to be avoiding a hardened heart because I suffer from a hardened heart. But "honor" and "forgiveness" do not mean that I must stand in front of the murderous criminal ever again nor does it mean that I must honor my parents definition of "honor". I think Moonlight has it. I think honor means to have compassion, forgiveness and perhaps, if possible, mercy. - Just one person's struggle over the issue - Gaining Strength
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Honor is a hard one. I think about "honoring" my mom at her funeral. Standing up and eulogizing her. I am totally afraid I would get on a rant and they would have to run up to the podium and drag me out. Have you ever seen that movie with Gwenyth Paltrow where she does just that...................she says something like "where were all you people the last two years while my father was deteriorating? I'm glad he's dead!!!"
I don't know. That relief thread has something to do with it. Can you be sad someone died and yet relieved?? I don't want to say "happy" because that would make me as bad as she. So how can you honor someone and be relieved they are dead? Can you lie? Tell everyone what the N would want you to say at the funeral? Or could you say it so sarcastically that everyone could tell by the tone of your voice that you were not sincere? So if you pretend to honor your parents, can people tell you are lying??? But do you have to honor them to live a long life???
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I think the Honor your father and mother verse can be balanced with the verse that says whoever hurts a child should have a millstone put around his neck.. Can't remember it exactly but its goes something like that.
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The only way I have found forgiveness is to forgive others.....
The problem is I have done the unforgivable by searching for a way out of my pain and through this process I have "spilled the beans" As it were.....
(although my sister and brother spoke about the abuse to their spouse's over 30 years ago and I had nothing to do with that)
But I have passed through that fire and released emotions that were attached to them.......
G-d sees all we are all forgiven so living on the path that includes these ideas has brought peace and G-d is judge not me....
I am so grateful to have found dearly sought after peace.....
No one is to blame ..
I hold myself responsible for my own emotions and as always in life if we make mistakes there is learning an opportunity to try again.....
Intention what is in your heart ..
well it is a struggle and then............................
So much love to you
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Thanks to all of you for giving me so much to ponder! I was getting ready to turn in for the night, and tried to skim all the new posts, and left this one for last to skim.
Next time I'll know better, to peek before turning in! But the good thing is that the board, and you all, will still be here!
I did not clarify it in my original post, but I also wanted to open this up not just about parents or FOO, but also any actions anyone has chosen to take in any relationships, if anyone wants to offer any other thoughts.
I'll be looking forward to really being able to ponder and not just skim!!
Cat
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For me it is and was a matter of learning to love the sick.....
alot had to be worked/ into me and/ out of me to be able to do this .........
it is easy to love someone who is easy to love.......... awh but loving someone who is hard to love is harder
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I'm interested in knowing how those of you have reconciled your faith - whatever that faith might be- including the ideas of "honoring your mother and father", "loving one another", "the middle way" , etc. with the actions you have chosen to take in your relationships.
It's a complicated issue, I think. On the one hand we have the apparently straightforward commandment "honor thy father and mother". But things get more complicated if we look at other scripture. There is, for example, Luke 18:20 which states: There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or wife, or children for the kingdom of gods sake who shall not receive manifold more in this present time and in the world to come". There are many other statements by JC which also suggest the issue is not simple.
I think there is a presumption in the basic commandment that the father and mother are actually on the right path. Then it is reasonable to "honor" them fully. But if they are lost, the offspring have to make other choices.
In practice I "honor" my parents by knowing they probably did the best they could, given their own upbringing and circumstances. I don't mistreat them, and I try to be reasonably decent. But at the same time I know I have to draw a line. My father's belief system and behaviors are not something I can fully honor, because I suspect he has undiagnosed mental disorders. It isn't up to me to judge, but I do have to make my own choices and protect myself from abuse.
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Hello to All,
I just wanted to say thank you- Gratitude, Stormchild, Overcomer, Moonlight, Gaining Strength, Poetprose, and tjr for responding in such a considered way.
I see value in all your responses, and I see my questioning mind, my self-doubting mind, start chattering away. ( I think I remember a reference to the "monkey mind" in something I read about meditation. I'm surprised I'm not always craving bananas.)
The statement Moonlight made- "Freedom and bondage are two concepts" (the illusion of duality?)"and beyond is inner peace and goodwill toward others" was something that both caught my attention and freed it. I guess experientially it was akin to one of those "zen" moments I've read about.
tjr- I like how you wrote "JC'. To me, it speaks familiarity and friendship, and not sacrilege.
Overcomer- I can relate to what you said about your parents providing well physically. Mine did provide for us while we were growing up (a little too well for my brother- he was overindulged both physically and emotionally, and is in prison- again) but what I always wanted was to just have the sense that what I did was ok, or enough. I still struggle with giving myself that, even though I do not have to do it ex nihilo as Gaining Strength mentioned in another post.
If I remember correctly, Stormchild posted in another thread about about feeling sad and relieved when someone dies. I plan to go back and post on it at another time. I recently saw the movie with the funeral scene you described. What I thought was just how TIRED she was of the caretaking that had come to and abrupt end, and how she was glad that the misery, both hers and his was over, and that was what she was glad about, not his actual death. I'll have to watch it again, because it was late and I fell asleep during part of it, and I thought it was interesting how her thoughts of if it was her work or his work got so mixed up in her mind.
Poetprose- yes, so much harder, especially when struggling to find the way to do it not just in word but in deed. ( and I suppose in deed could have two meanings!)
OK- these non-typing fingers have been pecking away long enough for now- gonna take a short break.
cats paw
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cats paw,
I'd like to share too. Since my situation with X, I have gone back to my beliefs about charismaticism and especially deriving my strength from confession of the Bible scriptures and prayer.
X was one who set out right away by preventing me from ministering in certain ways that I was strong in, so that, to this day, I still struggle, hearing her voice scolding me.
I believe that strength of belief and faith, comes first from the Creator of that strength, and then next, from within oneself. God has given me a strong inner-core, so when all is said and done, I can stand pretty firmly for what I believe, in spite of past pains of rejection and abandonment.
~Laura
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Hi, ReallyME-
I have noticed in some of your other posts your being able to stand firmly for what you believe. Do you attend services? I remember Hopalong saying how she felt so uplifted by attending.
cats paw
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Cats Paw,
Yes I sure do attend services. We have a contemporary Christian band and a really down-to-earth pastor. I'm more into the charismatic style of church, but hubby likes this one, so I'm going with him.
~Laura
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I am jumping in here a bit late, but here goes...
I have a hard time reconciling beliefs with my H. H comes across as very spiritual. He is such a hypocrite though. He has so much knowledge in his head. He sits in front of his bible all the time, at the kitchen table so we can all see. He does this when I watch TV. I get the feeling he only does it because he wants to show me what I should be doing. Then, in the middle of a good show he will decide he wants to do a devotion. Of course, I and the boys will complain because we want to watch how the show ends. He gets extremely upset and shows us how TV is interfering with things of the Lord (keep in mind my H grew up with no TV and despises it...unless sports are on). How manipulating is this??? Here is a case where he used our faith to jab it to us to get his way. I won't pray with my H because he will use it against me somehow as in Why can't you pray for me or with me that way. Or he will walk away and tell me that was a great prayer...you were so passionate for her daughter...why can't you be that passionate for me... I have learned to not pray in a group when H is present. He assumes I never pray and so be it. As always, let him think what he wants. Whenever we go anywhere with unbelievers, he will let his bible lay around in plain view so everyone can see that he reads it and is Godly. He says he wants to convict others. He reads certain books in front of them so they will question him about it and it will lead to a spiritual conversation thus leading to share the gospel. He did this on a cruise we went on with my family. No one ever asked him about his book. He was always carrying his bible for the show effect. Needless to say he was pretty disappointed at the end of the trip. His whole goal was to share the bible with my Brother-in-law. It didn't happen. I have no problem with him sharing the message but I do have a problem in how he tries to go about it. He uses manipulation tactics and I hate watching him do that.
I am still trying to reconcile the respecting your husband scripture(husbands are commanded to love their wife and wives are commanded to repect their husband.). How do i respect someone who acts so poorly, accusing me of all kinds of things, being nasty and manipulative. The only time he shows me love is in the bedroom. He puts on his adoring face...like I am the best thing that has happened to him. BUT..if I tell him I am too tired...watch out. He can't accept that. How dare I say no. How do I respect him in light of that crap!
I have learned to feel sorry for him. the more time I spend around his father, the more I understand why H is like he is. My H has no clue that he does this stuff. He can reason it all to be right. I find it very sad. I do get angry for all the years i didn't know about this personality disorder. For 10 good years he steam rolled over me. It was hell. I can look at that and know that it was a character building thing. I can think the Lord put me with him to correct the error in his ways....through God all things are possible! If God is in control of all things, I must know that he has good things planned for me. First we have to rid my H of the sins of his fathers...in the meantime build character in me.
This is a good thread.
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I would tell him that I would be glad to do devotions at a set time each day. Also I think a lot of guys make lame attempts at romance in order to get laid. My h comes into the room and says "wanna do it?" Thats it for romance. I even tell him I need him to be more romantic.
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Hi Cat's Paw - I understand your question and am glad you asked it. Here's the way I think about it: I used to be so angry with both my Nparents - I took everything they said and did personally and retaliated. I was constantly hurt by their attitudes, actions, words, lack of action, - everything. Then I decided the anger was hurting me more than them. I certainly wasn't respectful or honoring of them. I just didn't see anything to respect or honor them for. I was right, given the ugliness of my childhood, but it wasn't getting me anywhere to continue the hostilities. So, after a hard 18 mos. in therapy, I let go of the anger, the hostility, and began to relate to them as just regular people, not parents who were supposed to be such-and-such a way towards me. The other part of it was more shameful and self-serving: I simply refused to take the chance on them writing me out of their will by alienating them. I had put up with SO much from them for years, I was damned if I'd lose that one benefit. So, I began to treat them as I would any person who treated me with disdain and tried to humiliate me: Without any anger, I would walk out of the room or hang up the phone when they became insulting or abusive, even if I had to make up an acceptable excuse to do it (someone's at the door, omg, the dog just threw up on my couch, etc.). With my dad, I even threw back some comments of my own when he got started. Then my dad died, thankfully. I don't apologize for saying "thankfully" b/c he was a sadist as well as an N. Mother still does some of the same old things, but without me, she'd be in hot water, so I can count on her being nice b/c she needs me. The result has been that I feel I am, have been respecting and honoring them by being myself, being truthful without confrontation, and deflecting their hurtfulness without anger. For me it was excising the anger, leaving only what I considered respect and honor, even if it wasn't the way others would do it.
I feel for you as you struggle with this question for yourself.
Towrite
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camper,
Thanks for posting about a different relationship other than parental. I thought of a book I read a long time ago called "When God Becomes A Drug" by Leo Booth. He was a keynote speaker at a seminar I went to a long time ago. There are lots of books that could be informational- put the title in Amazon's search if you're interested. That book came to my mind when I read your post.
Towrite,
I appreciate your candor. Different people told me I was nuts when I had a frank discussion with my mother that any possible inheritance one way or the other would not be something that I would be manipulated with. As much as it was about boundaries, it was also about my own integrity.
CB,
I enjoy all your posts. There is so much that is not only specifically applicable but multi-applicable.
cats paw
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catspaw, thanks for the book referral. I had no idea that our faith is used in that way. I ordered that book and another about pharisees. Something else new that will enlighten me.
CB, thanks for enlightening me on the "dance". I do dance. I am learning some new moves...stepping on his toes :twisted:. That is one of the things I was going to work on with my therapist.
All these divorces are so discouraging. I really don't want a divorce. It would be my second. I can't do that...I just can't. I know my H will never be normal. I can learn how to deal with it................can't I????????????????
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I know my H will never be normal. I can learn how to deal with it................can't I????????????????
Hi camper
I'm going to answer your question in the general sense, first, and in the specific sense - to the extent that I can - after that.
In general, it is always possible to learn how to deal with a full-blown narcissistic husband. Absolutely, as long as we understand - completely - and agree - completely - that we will do all of the emotional work in the relationship, that we will do all of the giving in the relationship, that we will never be allowed to be fragile, or needy, or weak, or old, or ill; that only he is allowed to need, and take, and that this will be done always without thanks, or gratitude, or even acknowledgement. That it is now, and ever shall be, about him, world without end, amen, and never, not once, not for even the briefest, faintest glimmer of time, ever, about us. That for all we give, and all we give up, we can never expect more than complaint, indifference, or outright abuse; and that in an instant, in the blink of an eye, like snow melting on the hearth, as soon as someone else promises more - more attention, more youth, more beauty, more sex, more adulation, more money, more endurance, more 'connections' to more of 'the right people', he'll be gone as if he never were, leaving us exhausted, defeated, and alone.
As long as we understand and accept these terms, then yes, we can deal with it. The only question remaining is why anyone would think that we deserve to...
Now; specifically; only you know how deep the narcissism runs in the person you love. Only you will be able to decide how much is too much, how much is too little, and where you will have to draw your lines and take your stands. One piece of very specific advice: Draw the lines. Take the stands. How he reacts - both in the instant and after he has had time to reflect - will give you your answers. Everything else is theory.
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general, it is always possible to learn how to deal with a full-blown narcissistic husband. Absolutely, as long as we understand - completely - and agree - completely - that we will do all of the emotional work in the relationship, that we will do all of the giving in the relationship, that we will never be allowed to be fragile, or needy, or weak, or old, or ill; that only he is allowed to need, and take, and that this will be done always without thanks, or gratitude, or even acknowledgement. That it is now, and ever shall be, about him, world without end, amen, and never, not once, not for even the briefest, faintest glimmer of time, ever, about us. That for all we give, and all we give up, we can never expect more than complaint, indifference, or outright abuse; and that in an instant, in the blink of an eye, like snow melting on the hearth, as soon as someone else promises more - more attention, more youth, more beauty, more sex, more adulation, more money, more endurance, more 'connections' to more of 'the right people', he'll be gone as if he never were, leaving us exhausted, defeated, and alone.
Stormchild: This is coming from someone who is still trying to come to grips with an N. I don't see that my H is a full-blown narcissistic husband. There are many traits he doesn't have. Like, we will do all of the emotional work in the relationship isn't a problem. In fact, my H is sooo emotional I have to be the opposite to balance him. He wears his emotions on his sleeve. It is very clear when he is disgusted or angry. If I point out to him these emotions, he will deny them. So now I say, "you seem____". He still denies it but he will erase that look off his face and go about his way. He's funny. The look that bothers me the most is the smug look. I hate that look. It gets to my core.
as soon as someone else promises more - more attention, more youth, more beauty, more sex, more adulation, more money, more endurance, more 'connections' to more of 'the right people', he'll be gone as if he never were, leaving us exhausted, defeated, and alone.
My H is very caught up with always doing the right thing. It is not even about his faith. He would never have an affair, never leave me. Something about his dad never giving him praise, he always does the right thing to get praise. If someone asks him to do something, he will do it in the exact way(even if it doesn't make sense). He will do it now. If he has some friend who he looks up to and who does a certain thing, he will emulate that person and implement this thing into our family...even if it doesn't work for our family. He will do it just because his friend does it and it must be the right thing. Then he proceeds to tell everyone he is doing this good thing. He digs for pats on the back.
My H is extremely needy. I call him " high maintenance" I can tell when I do too many things (ei. at church) he starts acting out and I know I need to cut back. Last summer, I went camping with a friend often, during the weekday. My H has to work so he couldn't always be there. It drove him crazy and he tended to make our life miserable. I love camping without him but it's not worth it. We got a permanent site only 20 minutes from our house. It'll be easier to deal with him.
My H doesn't have anger issues. In fact, he doesn't allow anger. Sometimes I get really angry with him and he will point out that I am the one angry, not him. Therefore, it must be all my problem. When I am ready to calm down, he will talk. He doesn't physically abuse me. I don't deal with that stuff.
We went on a road trip once and H read everyone's bumper sticker and went on to bah whoever was in the car. I thought about it for quite a while before I finally asked him to please stop bashing everyone who has a bumper sticker you don't agree with. That is not right and what are you teaching our boys in doing this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if you don't agree. He has quit and doesn't do that anymore. I have since read how he is defining people from the outside in. Almost like he is in their head and can know their thoughts. He is definitely a Mr. Know-it-all. So now when he goes on and on defining someone, I will point out that he doesn't know that and he'll say, "that's just what I think". Even my 12 yo will point out he doesn't know. I love it that my son picked that up and see that!
My H likes it that I have friends. He likes it that I do things with them. I am not isolated.
One major problem is that my H defines me often. And I let him! We were thinking of leaving our church at one point and he decided we were going to stick it out at our church. He told everyone that "we" really like our church and see great things happeing. There is another church that I had really wanted to go to. I love this other church. I still want to go to that other church so badly. He tells everyone "we" don't agree with their doctrine...when in fact I do agree. I have swept that under the carpet. Moving forward, I will speak my mind! I realized I need to stop letting him do that to me.
I sure didnt mean to imply that I'm encouraging divorce as a solution
CB, I didn't think that at all!!! I am referring to all the other threads. Seems like everyone is going through a divorce or they have been there, done that. I appreciate your bird's eye view. I think you have a lot to offer me(so therefore I will be your friend?....I sound like an N). Who knows, in standing up to my H and setting boundaries, maybe he won't be able to take it. He can't handle rejection at all! It's his way or the highway. If I back down and tell him to just do it his way, he will reverse and do it my way but in the end he points out my error because of course he will make my way fail. then I find myself apologizing(no more though).
If I at anytime seem ignorant, tell me. I am about as open minded as a person can be. I love you all and am so glad I found this site!
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Yoicks. Painful memories.
I am, for me personally and my own life history and my own mind, very grateful that I finally said to myself: If God is love and only love, then I believe in God. Otherwise, I don't worry about a deity. Might be one, might not be one. I use the language when I pray, but normally just to express gratitude.
What that led to isn't right for everyone but very right for me. I stopped believing that scripture is holy. For me, now, I've realized it's...writing. Ancient, passed-down writing, from remarkable men. (And Jesus was a real person, to me.) The scriptures, to me, are often deep, hugely meaningful in their impact on the world. But now, I see that for me, The Book, is a book. That dawning sense of what is true (for me) came with struggle, because it scared me. But after years of wrestling, I'm there. And it has released me from more pain and fear and misery...particularly the kind that said, abnegate yourself to be good, to be what you were taught is what a woman should be...
I am even unsure any more whether or not I believe marriage is an ideal situation (this is one part of me...the other would love to meet the right kind, honest, funny middle-aged man and share my life). During my ordinary non-fantasizing days, though, I'm getting happier. And a lot of it is the feeling that I don't have to explain myself to anyone else, negotiate around an oblivious or uncaring partner, etc..
As a devout little girl, I never imagined I'd be here, but I am.
I think beliefs can be prisons, especially when it comes to beliefs about what your gender dictates about how you should think, feel, behave.... "Belief" itself is a word, and human language evolved along with canopeners. I don't ever again want to be imprisoned by books or traditions or beliefs that harm my essentially joyful soul. Not gonna do it. Can't.
Hope the faithful here will forgive me for sharing this. I know it's discomfiting but it's a pretty deep part of me, that I seldom get to express. Thank you for tolerating it.
(Soul. There you go. Language is embedded so deeply.)
Hops