Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: pennyplant on April 13, 2007, 12:31:55 PM
-
On Laura's Sharing Personal Story in Private Thread, CB suggested I start a new thread about some of the issues that came up for me in reading Laura's topic. I answered some questions that GS asked me right after that suggestion and have decided to move my response to GS over here and delete that answer from Laura's thread.
I especially want to pursue the idea of what did I wish the N person in my life was like and what need in me did I hope he would meet. I wonder if this might help anyone else to focus on their own wishes for what the N would be like and what need did that indicate in their own heart. So, this is a start:
I was talking about what it will be like when I transfer to another office in the next few months--
This will seem very strange to decide what I want and then actually do something about it to take better care of myself. Sadly, I doubt that I will be missed very much when I leave there. Barely a ripple in the pond of dysfunction. And once again, I will be the little pioneer making my way in a new world.
GS's response--
I see this as really taking control over your life rather than setting it on the tracks to run its course. I really believe that this will give you great pleasure and a wonderful sense of pride. Though I do understand your desire to have made a ripple I am certain that that ripple will be more valuable in a beautiful pond rather than in the cesspool you have fallen into. Pick a beautiful lily pond and your sense of loss over the cesspool will just disappear.
Oh, GS, this is really good thinking here. I like this image very much. It will help to have this picture in mind when I leave because, as bad as things get where I am now, I know I will still feel some grief. There are individuals there who I like very much and get along with. I will miss them. Well, and it will be a big change. That in itself is something that will feel like a loss to me or will trigger feelings of loss from my past. But I'm still going to leave there anyway. I know it is for the best.
I was talking here about an N former co-worker:
Those feelings I once had for him, even though I know now they were based on what I wished he were like, still live quietly in me.
GS's response--
Pennyplant, do you know what it is that you wish he were like? What is it that you thouoght he could address or give you that you need? I encourage you to explore this fully and get it out on paper because I believe that you should see if there is anyway you can get some fulfillment over for those things you need. They haven't gone away just because the person who might fulfill them evaporated. I know what I am saying seems crazy - without a man, a person to provide them for you but call my crazy, I think there may be some sort of way to at least get closer to them than you are now. I'm not asking you to post them here but to explore them in your heart and get them out on paper. Who knows you may find a part of you that really needs nurturing and developing and you may find a way to do that that really gives you joy. - GS
Now this is an important question for me to be able to answer for myself. I never thought of it that way. This N that I'm talking about here is actually a former co-worker who I allowed to draw me into some foolishness. Not my husband. My husband is the person I will be spending the rest of my life with. The N was going to be my "adventure". So, there is actually a lot there for me to question myself about and try to answer for myself. I think I'm getting there. I know what I wanted this person to be like. I don't know yet what need I thought he would meet. Perhaps I thought this person could "prove" that I was attractive, special, worthy. I had/have this idea stuck in my head that because only my husband has ever been in love with me and happy to give me that kind of attention that it must be some kind of fluke or mistake. I'm not really any good if only one person ever cared for me in that way. Well, I think there is more to it than that. I will work on this question.
I am going to put some thought into this topic and then share what I come up with. It would be great if anyone else wants to work on something related and post it here as well.
Pennyplant
-
I hope it's ok for me to share about what I wish Xes (from the story) were like, instead of how they really were/are
I would have liked for X's Mother to really admit that X had issues and to have tried to get her help when she was going through things as a child.
I would have liked X to really UNDERSTAND just how much pain she put me through, and, instead of when I talked to her about N'ism, getting defensive and denying it, that she would have said "gee, maybe that is why people look at me as a snob and don't really feel they can get close to me...maybe I need to go get some cognitive therapy or some sort of help with this."
I would have liked for husband of X to have been more patient with me, to have truly validated and valued me as a person.
I would have liked and still would like X to someday come back and say to me "I know I can not undo what I did to you, but I want you to know that I DO see that my behavior was dysfunctional, came from being raised in a strict environment with a lot of problems, being made to feel like I had to have all the answers and be the caretaker for people...and that it caused me to want to escape through delusions of grandeur, money, possessions, control and I also used my connection to God to control others and please forgive me and let me have another chance at being the true best friend you needed.
That is MY idealistic thinking though...
kids want to go to the store now...blessya'll
-
The N was going to be my "adventure".
and it truly is an adventure to be aroudn someone with a personality disorder especially a full-blown N.
You'd never have to focus on yourself for a moment again!
I'm sure there are some people who would be happy 'serving' an N who wasn't too cruel also, if by happy it's defined 'meeting current expectations' or something.
The problem with hooking up with an N is unlike them- we do change and grow over the years. And they aren't going to respond well to that.
-
WRITE,
I have to agree with you about how most people might really want to live with and serve an N that's not too cruel. They are very interesting and unbelievable to have relationships with.
They are the only ones I know that can call you FAT AND UGLY to your face, and then go back to whatever they were doing. They also are the only ones who can step into your dance recital and tell you, "you should not have let those photographers take pictures of you with those zits on your face...now, what will everyone think of ME?"
What I have found with people living with N's by choice, is usually those people don't have very high self-worth. Who would really PURPOSELY subject themselves to having their IDENTITY Stripped off them, just to bolster the N's ego and false image.
-
They are very interesting and unbelievable to have relationships with.
there's usually a 'pay-off' emotionally for every relationship however difficult.
"Don't want to address own problems" -get involved with someone who has more problems than me etc....
But quite often for an NPD relationship the payoffs are things which are valued in our society- intelligence or giftedness, wealth, social status, and emotional intensity!
-
I've thought about this question but in a very different way. Now that you throw it back I am going to think about it in a very different way. My biggest N was (is) my father. My mother is N in the way that she has absolutely no ability to have empathy and my late husband had N qualities are wrapped around his very BPD actions. So I want to think about what I need from each and every one of them if wishes were horses. Thanks for the question Pennyplant.
-
Oh yes, Laura, please post here about what you hoped for from your N and her family. I think this is an important area to consider, what our hopes were and why we would hope for those things.
WRITE--I didn't know he had a personality disorder when I started up with him!!! I just thought he liked me and was attracted to me. I had been attracted to him from the start but thought I was hiding it. Looking back, the whole thing was pretty stupid but I didn't want to listen to the doubts because I was so set on having my "adventure". Having only the experience of my husband who is crazy about me, that was my frame of reference for what any man who liked me would be like. I was completely unprepared for the headgames which started right away.
There's a lot of parts to the whole thing. I will start with one thing that hooked me in and see if I can understand it. Or if someone else has an idea.
He told me some personal stories about his youth that kind of floored me and hooked me in by kind of breaking my heart. He told me once that he had watched both his parents die. I was shocked as I didn't know anyone who had seen something like, or at least had ever told me something like that. At the time my own father was dying and so I was kind of ripe for that topic. He told me he saw his father die when he was only ten and they had been in the living room watching TV. He watched his mother die when he was only 24 and just three months from getting married. I asked him if he had been scared and he said, "I wouldn't have missed it for the world." I guess I'm sheltered or something. But that story really moved me a lot. Then when my father died a couple weeks later, I had those words in my head and it got me through that last day when I watched my own father die.
So, that was a very personal thing he shared and it meant a lot to me. It also completely fooled me as to the kind of person he is. I thought he was a sensitive, feeling kind of person. I thought he understood "the meaning of life". Especially after I witnessed a death myself I assumed he had experienced it the same way I had. It was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life and the most meaningful next to having my children. So, I assumed some things about him based on my own experience of a similar event.
Now I see that as an N, he certainly would have feelings about the loss of his parents so tragically young and was certainly traumatized. But his trauma was probably very different from my own.
I suspect he is a true N, N from childhood on. But before I knew that, I thought I had found someone who had experienced deep pain as I have. That made me feel less alone. I felt like he was a real comrade or deep kind of friend. You know, the rare kind of friend who really understands you and cares. I thought there was a bond. Since I needed to talk about these personal kinds of things I thought we would talk about his parents and his feelings about those losses. I wanted to be needed by him for that.
I would say there is a real lack of that kind of intimacy in my life. I can talk about things like that with my husband and he will listen. But he will not be similarly vulnerable with even me. He just hates to reveal that kind of thing about himself. So, that kind of intimacy is not reciprocal for me, even in my marriage, which I would say is a good one. Better than most anyway.
That kind of intimacy for me is the kind of thing that makes me feel alive. And it's not like I want that kind of conversation or revelation all the time. Just once in a while. But I really never have it. I often thought growing up that my mother was listening to me and we were sharing when we had certain conversations. Eventually I learned that she wasn't really paying any attention at all. And my father just was a very, very held in person.
Boy, just this one thing is pretty big for me. I could go on more, but I think the basic idea is here already.
There's lots more than just that. No wonder I feel like I need to say it out loud sometimes.
Pennyplant
-
Pennyplant,
After reading what you posted, I am wondering if you might want to hear my story. I need to email it to you if ithat's ok and if you are interested. I feel like you could really relate to what I went through too. Please let me know in private with an email address if it's ok to share with you, as the V board does not allow for a lot of long posts in private.
~RM
-
Well, I have read all your previous posts about your situation, Laura, so I guess that's enough for now. It does speak to what I have also gone through and I have learned a lot from reading your posts.
I think I will be able to make a lot of progress by approaching myself and my "tendencies" in the way that GS has suggested. Probably won't do a lot of it on the board but rather in my head or in my journal.
Today a friend of mine let me know that her boyfriend was diagnosed as N by her counselor (who did see him and was able to see the signs). She made him move out and I am so happy for her. That news was kind of a light in my otherwise stressful day at work. Man, I'm getting to hate that place. But I will be able to work on myself intensively because of the kinds of things that go on there. The schoolyard all over again. A while back GS pointed out what a gift that really is. To re-do my childhood. You're right, too. And I'm going to make the most of it during the time I'm there before I transfer out. Think, think, think. Change, change, change. Grow, grow, grow.
Pennyplant
-
I just expected that N was who he appeared to be and that the computer business we planned on together would take off really well for him (his idea)/us, as I also could help.
I began very soon to see he was a slacker and I wished I could make him see how much he knew about computers and what a business we could build.
He would often start to build, say 7 computers required by the Senior's Centre, then all of a sudden I find that I am building them and he is out drinking!
What a mess!
Izzy
-
I wish X would have listened to, considered, looked at, and believed what I told her I was concerned about, rather than "throw the messenger out while ignoring the message"
-
Izzy, I find I am almost always seeing talents in others that are unfulfilled. Everyplace I have worked has been dysfunctional on some level but I am always thinking, "Wow, this place could be great, there is so much talent here, if only....."
This also reminds me of a quote I read from Sophia Loren that boils down to--often enough the talented people don't go as far in life as the confident people. Belief you can do something matters more than talent.
I am seeing that happening before my very eyes at work these days. The junior-to-me-slacker-co-worker simply believes she deserves a certain career or a certain amount of power or deference. She is actually the laziest and most incompetent worker there, bar none. But she has a certain aura or something--belief in self regardless of the "facts"--that is serving her very well. The people senior to me have seen this same dynamic over and over again in their 30-year careers. Either they have no self-confidence and didn't progress themselves because of it. Or they have a great deal of integrity and aren't into the fake it till you make model of career building.
Hope this isn't too far off what you were talking about with Xn. I guess I'm saying you are the one with talent and integrity. He is fake. Well, we all know Ns are fake. Do we all know we are the ones with integrity? To me that is very important, to have integrity.
Pennyplant
-
Laura, this idea of being believed is important to me also. It might be for a little different reason though.
If I am not believed or listened to--I begin to seriously doubt myself! It throws me into confusion. I worry about getting in trouble, that I got things wrong (OH NO!!!! I was WRONG!!). Well, I basically freak out, at least inside. I have to go over in my mind how I came to the conclusions I came to. I worry about possible disaster resulting from my opinions and words.
So much of what I see is undercurrent. A feeling that things are not right. It can be difficult to explain what I mean properly. Maybe that is part of the source of my self-doubting. The complexity of what I see going on sometimes. And when I say my ideas outloud, sometimes people get very defensive. Now why would they do that? Probably because I'm onto something. But I usually react to their defensiveness as if I have gotten something wrong.
It gets back to integrity and belief in self again. It is beyond getting THEM to listen to me and believe me. I have to listen to me and believe me.
I know you actually are a strong person inside, Laura. I'm still way too wobbly. But I'm getting there.
Yesterday at work I got into something with one of the supervisors. It was exactly this kind of thing. I'm explaining what I am seeing and, therefore, why I am doing things a certain way. I did say something stupid--I said the big boss lied to me about something. Well, I still think she did. But I'm sure that one will come back to bite me, if something else doesn't distract the managers first.
But anyway, for everything I said, she had some kind of spin to put on it. In fact, she is the one who brought up the topic of my career in the first place. The other supervisor has also brought it up at least twice recently. Each seems to want to find a way to blame me for how badly things are going. But they brought it up first. And they were defensive in response to what I said. I don't think I'm seeing things that aren't happening!
I am having trouble with my wobbly insides, though! That's what I'm going to work on. Strong inner foundation first. Then see what kind of career and friends I want to have.
Pennyplant
-
CB - I get your point 100%. I have seen this to be very valid. I am by no means speaking about your situation Pennyplant. I am speaking in a very generalized way about my lifelong observations. I have seen people in the very same situations as I was , early in my career, go on to great heights while I got completely leveled. Much of it had to do specifically with not getting caught up in the "guilty" debate.
I am thinking of one situation in particular where I was completely caught up in resolving a situation and getting it right while another employee just smoothed things over and went on his merry way. He was not honest but maybe he wasnt perfectionistic. He went on to great heights in his career. he once almost got stalled out by a significant charge of corruption but he managed to sidestep that as well. Though i dont admire him, I do admire his success. I used to think, "at what price" but it seems that i am the one who paid the price. I see how I was caught up in the strange perfectionism and judgement of Nism which never touched him, though he has some N tendencies. Nonetheless I would much rather have followed his career path than mine.
Perfectionism has been a hideous devil in every aspect of my life. It is part of that wretched criticism that I experienced so overwhelmingly early on and took in so completely. It reminds me that I need to really work on building myself up. All Ns need building up but true Ns seem to have closed off that door.
-
Did you feel that your only salvation was making your N understand?
Okay, bear with me on this as it is related.
I believe that I operate from this basis: I was born to parents who didn't want me. They didn't want any children, though they had two. Emotionally I was abandoned just about from the start. But physically they were pretty much right there in front of me all the time. So I only knew, from day one practically, that what I was seeing what not what I should be believing. Huge abandonment hidden under this facade of a normal family of four. I do not trust what I see, I do not trust what people say or do, I do not trust myself. That is the basis, I believe, for just about every interaction I have in life.
Basically, in every interaction I have, mostly the negative ones but possibly also some of the positive ones, I jump right past the beginning and into the digging part, the figuring out part, as part of the defense of my fragile hold on the relationship.
I don't even consider that the other person might just be pretty screwed up or have a completely opposing agenda to mine from the get-go. I don't even stop for a moment to take in what I just heard. That is the behavior I have to unlearn.
Big Boss has big issues in my opinion. Possibly a personality disorder. So, there will be no good conversation with her. There will be strategizing only. I found that out early on by the way she handled my "career development" back in January by actually cutting short my temporary management assignment--in effect demoting me--only three weeks after rushing me into the position to begin with. I probably blew it way back when by letting myself be carried along in the current of her river. Or the winds of her tornado. But, boy, did I learn a lot as a result of that experience. I will be able to mine it for lessons for a long time to come. And that is what I am after right now.
So I have had four conversations about my "career". One person listened and understood. One person (two conversations) heard and will probably back off. The third person might run into the office on Monday and tell big boss I said she lied to me. Or she might forget the whole thing. Pretty amazing stuff in my opinion. I'm learning so much.
Fortunately, Big Boss is leaving in two weeks to go wreak havoc on another unsuspecting office. We will be getting a new temporary idiot. I happen to think they, whoever they is, are setting aside this office for someone who might actually be more appropriate but needed more of the right kind of experience in order to be qualified for an office this size. Someone gave me some information while I was on my assignment that leads me to believe this is what is happening and I will be very interested to see if I'm right about that.
Did I answer the question I highlighted at the beginning of this post?!? It's not a simple yes or no I would say. In the moment when I have to come up with a response to these disordered types, I do tend to think that is the only thing, making them believe me, convincing them through my superior reasoning abilities. Hee hee. Sounded a little N there!
It turns out my approach is completely flawed through and through. It is based on my childish perception of my validity as taught me by the confusing situation in my FOO. Emotional abandonment hidden behind the everyday going-through-the-motions scenario created by my parents. Nothing in my life was what it seemed on the surface. And I sensed it, but didn't have the words to understand it. Or the ability to do anything about it.
CB, there is a lot in your post and I only touched on one thought! I too am having lots of things happening all at once it seems, but I think it's going to come together eventually.
The relationship addiction thing--I have it for sure. Though on the outside I might seem like something of a nun for all the intimacy I have had in my life. But there is definitely an addictive aspect to my personality and it does have to do with relationships. I never even realized that about myself. But I guess that is because I wasn't really tested up until the last few years.
Oh yes, the handing over of the keys. I do that all the time. I read that Stalin once said, about the U.S., that we would sell them the rope to hang ourselves with. I do that all the time! I did it with the N co-worker. All in one conversation I told him every single weakness I have, without realizing it at the time of course, and he eventually pushed every one of those buttons. It was amazing. He must have felt like a kid in a candy store (or a pervert in a triple X video store). I just gave him exactly the information he needed to toy with me endlessly. Well, it did have to end eventually. But he went to town with it for many, many months.
I am way too open about myself. Not sure why. Maybe it's related to boundaries? Or my values? I believe in the truth almost above everything else. Yet, I have huge trust issues and I do hold back a lot in many situations.
I think the answer for me to much of this is to shore up my inner workings. Build a firm foundation of a real self.
Pennyplant
-
I used to think, "at what price" but it seems that i am the one who paid the price.
Boy oh boy, GS, your whole post describes exactly what I have been caught up in all my life. The things that matter so much to us seem not to matter to others, seem not to even matter in the grand scheme of things. I don't want to turn into some kind of amoral, selfish, greedy, aggressive person. But what am I doing obsessing over what was said, what did it mean, oh no! I made a mistake (a big one sometimes). Why do I do this when very few others do? It's the FOO thing operating in us of course. Thinking we have to be good all the time and then they will love us. Then we will exist.
I don't want to be "bad". But I am sick of the perfectionism that I always fall back on. I am sick of the self-judgment that always results from it. I really don't see others judging themselves so harshly. If they are, they certainly hide it well. They certainly go on their merry way without much looking back. They don't change, in other words. I change myself constantly. I shouldn't have to change all the time. Not unless it is in the manner of growth. I shouldn't be giving away parts of who I am all the time.
Who I am has value.
Pennyplant
-
What an amazing thread. PP, you are steaming with insights and I know they're going to pay off hugely for you. Because you sound as though you're genuinely testing and stretching not only your analytical thoughts about the work situation, but your accompanying reactions. That's big!
And re: The things that matter so much to us seem not to matter to others
I think, for me, part of the perfectionism, is a MORAL perfectionism. That is literally impossible to uphold in the real world without being perfect, or without being a perfect pill.
IOW, sometimes I think of Ns, they just don't care. But I realize there are layers to it:
Perhaps Ns are not really saying to themselves, I will choose to live like a dishonest, amoral person, because I don't CARE that I'm flaunting codes of kindness and fairness.
I wonder if maybe the codes of kindness and fairness that so many N-victims vibrate to so profoundly actually are not even understood, except as you might understand the meaning of a story in English class only once the teacher has walked you through the explanation in detail...by Ns.
Maybe we FEEL an empathetic reflex about kindness and fairness, and Ns simply don't FEEL it. Or even imagine it, in the way that a basically kind or fair person would have it rear up in front of them internally, when faced with a decision about how to treat another person.
Hops
-
Well I needed new blouses and bought 3 on Saturday.
I wished they had fit but they didn't so I took them back today and
bought 4 other blouses. I hope they will fit me.
Izzy
-
Hopsy, I also don't think the Ns are necessarily deciding, well, I'll be immoral today. I think they perhaps understand morality and right and wrong. But the actions they take, I think they feel that they need to do what they do, regardless of our feelings, and they do some kind of justification to themselves.
I always think of my x N-boss as a "junkyard dog". I always have this picture of her in my mind, barking and snarling in such a menacing way in order to protect her little pile of whatever. Barking and snarling and jumping up on the chain link fence of her junky little domain. (Well, in reality, she was quite OCD and has a very perfect and beautiful home and possessions). But here I'm focusing on the ferocious dog aspect of my mental picture of her. It is that need to constantly defend. I think that is a need in them that ranks right up there with breathing and eating and sleeping. They are starved emotionally and spiritually. They are afraid all the time somewhere in their childlike brainstem. And whatever their childlike brainstems have determined will feed that starvation and keep them going, surviving, that is what they must have, no matter what. Even if we seem to be getting in the way. Sometimes especially if we seem to be getting in the way.
Our feelings rank very low compared to their very survival. Surely we can understand that and not take it personally......
Pennyplant
-
Yoicks, good description, PP...
Ironically, I think you're right.
Once we LEARN (sheer luck for a lot of us) about Nism, then we CAN not take it personally.
Who takes a pit bull personally? They are pit bulls.
But with people...we have such different expectations.
I don't take it personally now with Ns, but god, I first learned about Nism at age 52, then still had several N relationships more before I really got it (nearly at the cost of my psyche)...and only after that, could I stop taking it personally.
What do we expect of children, or of people who don't know?
Great description of the defensiveness, pure attention hunger, etc. It is animalistic, and sometimes it's glossed over by humann attributes that get them by so well.
Pit bulls are not adoptable. But we can't do that with human beings.
Hops
-
When I could detach I did not take it personally. I recall saying to XN "I don't believe it is me you hate, you just hate" When XN would tell me he loved me he would then proceed to do something particularily nasty. His rage is in himself and projected at the world. Sometimes it is difficult not to take it personaly but I learned to do this. I came to realise that the only way he could relate to others was by punishing and then love bombing. It reminded me of some sort of cult process.
The turning point for me was when I realised that by being with him I was colluding in the abuse. I may as well have said to him... keep doing it, its what I want and that was the big Ah moment for me.
axa
-
Hops, axa, yes to both of your posts. Yes, yes, yes.
I think I'm finally starting to make "sense" of some of N co-workers weirdnesses. I suspect he was feeling a lot of shame and guilt for having "feelings" for me. Like he had been a very, very bad boy. While I have also felt guilt for having feelings for others that a married woman "shouldn't" have, I have taken out my guilt or shame on myself. Ns take it out on us. It makes sense in some ways. He must think I am the one who "made" him have those naughty feelings for me. He can put all his bad on me.
Now my husband, when I told him how I was feeling, was very very hurt. But he believes that it is not reasonable that a person will love only one other person in the entire world in their entire life. What I was doing or feeling was very hurtful to him. But it seemed like a real part of a real life to him. So, he has been able to forgive me and recognize the humanity in me and in himself should he also have a similar situation in his life someday.
The Ns are little boys and girls. How could they possibly understand something so deep and complex? They will just strike out and hope to make their difficult feelings go away.
Pennyplant
-
I have taken out my guilt or shame on myself. Ns take it out on us.
Penny,
I think that's what makes us the "perfect" partners!
You know how we wonder if we are N magnets? I think an N can sniff out that tendency in us and it makes us the perfect scapegoat. We can take all their garbage on, and then they can shine!
CB