Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Portia on March 30, 2004, 10:41:58 AM
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I read about therapy based on existential basics: that you may treat someone’s fear of four basic truths:
1. Death: I’m going to die
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do
Now I have a BIG problem with just one of those. Which one(s) do you (everyone) have problems with, if any?
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Portia,
All of them actually. Meaninglessness in particular. But I guess freedom is the really tricky one for us N-survivors - is that the important one for you?
I've been reading and re-reading Irvin Yalom's writings. Existential issues are the bottom line as far as I'm concerned, but it's hard to struggle with that as well as the ongoing stuff. Bless my new therapist, who is determined to replace all the negative parental rubbish in my head with kind, nurturing messages. Then maybe I'll have the space to deal with the existential issues!
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I haven't come across this author before and that list doesn't really speak to me. What am I missing?! I seem to have a lot of opinions but this one has me stumped!!! ;-)
I've just checked Amazon and the author's website. Mostly I don't like reading therapy books anymore. I get too enraged about my last therapist with feelings of 'See! That's what you were supposed to do. I knew that and you didn't value me - you just felt threatened by me. And then you turned me into your MOTHER, FGS!' By which time I'm shouting in my head getting nowhere, overwhelmed by feelings of hopelessness and despair at how much damage it did to my life!!
Perhaps that's the 'I'm all alone in my head' truth?????
I feel more trapped by the 'I DON'T have the freedom to do what I want cos I'm not allowed to do it/can't actually do it' one. Parent myself. Become my own parent. Do parenting better than my own parent; therapy better than my own therapist. But somewhere down the line I end up feeling/thinking/believing nothing is real - so what's the point. Just get on with it, survive. Nothing matters. Nobody else seems to think that what I think is real so why should I. :shock:
Sorry, I've probably completely missed the point but that's where it took me.
R
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Rosencrantz,
I think I understand what you mean. Getting lost in psychobabble and methods of understanding and therapies can go in all sorts of directions and lead nowhere. Some use these as ways of manipulation or obfuscation. If you are feeling alone in your head or isolated, it is very likely a healthy reaction. I really believe that too much thinking about one's own thoughts is usually unhealthy. It sounds like your mind is maybe screaming for peace and relaxation. That is a healthy sign to me!
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Sorry - you don't understand what I mean at all. But I understand you all right.
R
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Hi portia,
Although I am not particularly well read, I find value in existential beliefs. I thought about your list for a while and here's what I concluded:
1. Death: I’m going to die.
I am really okay with this. Death is not a frightening concept for me.
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
I worry about isolation. Being married to an N has resulted in a high isolation level for many, many years. With my recent separation from N, I am hoping that I have within me qualities to make friends and decrease my isolation. I'm not confident in my ability to make a friend and be a friend. I am not confident in my ability to love or be loved (or even to be lovable) I have felt so separated for so long.... and N told me thing that were wrong with me many times. I suppose I feel as though I am cast aside and unworthy of real friends.
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
For me, this ties closely to #2. Meaning of life comes from the relationships we share in.
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do
Absolutely. I believe that we do have freedom to do whatever we are able. I believe in choice and my ability to choose. I take responsibility for choosing to stay in a N relationship. I live this one.
These are my votes... after reviewing what I just wrote, I suppose Isolation comes in first as biggest issue! (portia, I look forward to hearing your opinions on the list later on)
lynn
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Nightsong, you got it, freedom is the biggy for me. I know it – what it means, how to do it - but I don’t feel it. If only I could convince my heart that the world will not cave in if I follow what I wish for and that failure would be ok! Striving for perfection and procrastinating are too easy to carry on with. Idly thinking about the existential issues is just a diversion for me. Not sure I feel that the root of all problems lies in that list, but it’s interesting.
Rosencrantz, something silly. I don’t know if you’ve read ‘The Dice Man’ novel or if you haven’t that you’d even like it a little, but it’s a fine teenage book with more than a few laughs. Not serious at all and quite rude and vulgar, but just, well, fun in places (and boring in most). It might be about freedom. (I’m sure many who might read this will be rolling their eyes in horror at this childish suggestion! You have right of reply….) Click: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006513905/qid=1081177137/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/026-9351931-3409237
Lynn, your views about isolation are interesting and I can understand how years of being ‘separate’ (yes?) in a partnership might lead you to feel isolated. Hmm. Why did you say “unworthy of real friends”? Sounds a bit like original sin! – unworthy? I wish you all the best in finding ‘real’ people who you can connect with, talk with, listen to and feel that they are, genuinely, interested in you just for being you, as opposed to what you can feed in them, or what they can use you for. You are worth it, just like the L’oreal adverts say (don’t those advertisers know how to get to us?). Speaking of which, have you treated yourself lately? You really ‘deserve’ to! And FWIW, I’m not very well read either, I only read what interests me. Life’s too short for reading stuff that bores the pants off you (even if it is cultural or erudite, if it’s baloney to you, it’s baloney, right?).
For me, death doesn’t keep me awake; meaning doesn’t matter that much: I decided to live and to continue experiencing. That’s enough in a way, I don’t need meaning too. Why do we need meaning? Isn’t life enough? I do feel that, as opposed to think it. Nightsong, hope you find meaning, or lose the need for it, whichever suits. Maybe I’ll suddenly start looking for it too, who knows?
Isolation refers I think to not being able to ever know directly what someone else is thinking or experiencing: like I can never be sure that what you see and call ‘blue’ is the same as what I see and call blue. Philosophical chat, doesn’t do much to help with real life unless you use it to stop worrying about what other people think about you (i.e. you’ll never know for sure and it’s bound to be wild if they do think about you). But I do accept that I am utterly alone and can never get inside another’s head completely! Maybe future science will get us closer?! Yuk, do we want that…
Thank you (for indulging me?) for your replies. P
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Interesting thread with interesting responses.
I resonated most closely with Lynn in that of the four, Isolation seems to be my issue. Hell, I lurked here for two+ years before I could even bring myself to post ! I felt that I could watch, but not join.
Portia posed the question as being curious what other ACON's main issue was. Portia said it was Freedom and Nightsong seemed to agree that this was definitely and issue for ACONs. Since Lynn is the spouse of an N, as I am, I am wondering if Isolation would be the "typical" response of an N spouse, as Freedom might be for an ACON.
Lynn, I understand your feeling unsure of being able to make a friend and be a friend. I too feel that very keenly.
Before I was with my NH, I had friends, good friends and I was also a good friend to them. But my time with NH changed that and changed me. He isolated me from my friends and since I chose to stay with him, I ultimately betrayed them.
Now, on the other side of the N experience, I am less confident in myself, I feel guilt over the pain I inflicted on my friends. I think that I don't trust myself enough yet, that I might risk hurting people again. And also I don't trust anybody getting too close inside my head and heart because they might do what the N did.
The Isolation at the hands of an N is excruciating. I miss my friends. I miss closeness. I miss feeling like I know where I fit in to the world, in place, time and people. I am aware of these things and although I am working on it, it feels awkward now, separate, whereas before it was an integral part of me.
So, I wonder if Isolation is the choice of those that have acquired an N rather than being born to one. As the spouses of Ns at one time were N-less and have had the experience of non-Isolation, the Isolation is now very obvious and problematic.
Whereas ACONs have had the N experience inside them from the beginning of their lives and were never allowed the Freedom to be themselves. And now that they have that Freedom, they don't know what to do with it simply because they never had any experience with it. Does this make sense to anyone else? Or am I so Isolated inside my head that the Meaningless issue is kicking in?
It was your comment, Portia, on original sin that got me going. It was so revealing. I am thinking that that is what it might feel like for ACONs, "the sins of the fathers......" or mothers. Is that what it is like? I am sorry for your pain.....
But, keep thinking up these interesting topics, Portia. You really get me sweeping into those cobwebby corners !!
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With my recent separation from N, I am hoping that I have within me qualities to make friends and decrease my isolation. I'm not confident in my ability to make a friend and be a friend. I am not confident in my ability to love or be loved (or even to be lovable) I have felt so separated for so long
oh Lynn, I want to tell you: you ARE loveable.
You're very loveable.
From everything you've posted I can tell that.
But I remember feeling unloveable too, and no amount of love bridged the gap until I learned to love myself.
How to love yourself? If you put 'learn to love yourself' in a google search there's loads of ideas eg
There are many ways for us to love and to care for ourselves... The possibilities are infinite. One way to learn to love yourself is to act as if you already do (i.e., "Fake it till you make it"). An important way to love yourself is to nourish and care for your body: eat healthy foods and exercise regularly. You may want to "treat" yourself to things like a massage, a facial, a pedicure, or a gym membership. Taking breaks and having fun are important, as well. Whether alone, with a friend, or with a partner, you may want to have a night out on the town: go out for a nice dinner, go dancing, and/or attend the theater, a concert, the ballet, or a movie. If you tend to be a workaholic -- or if you are more a saver than a spender -- then perhaps it is time to take a well-deserved, long-overdue vacation. Of course, treating yourself does not need to involve great expense: you can take a bubble bath, eat dinner at home by candlelight, take a walk on the beach, swim in the ocean (those waters are very healing), or watch a sunset. Perhaps you enjoy taking time to paint or to write. These are just a few ideas... You can put your own imagination to work...
Another way to enhance self-love and self-esteem is to be aware of your self-talk (those things that you say to yourself inside your head). Speak to yourself in ways that are more kind, and less mean or abusive. Many of us have very harsh inner critics: When we make a mistake, this critical voice inside our head beats up on us, saying things like, "That was so stupid! ... I can't do anything right! ... What a loser!" We need to replace these negative messages with other, more positive ones. For example, "I made a mistake. That's okay: That is how I learn. I'll know better the next time." With awareness, over time, you can "catch yourself" when your self-talk is negative, and change the message to something more positive and "ego-enhancing."
Don't just "catch yourself being wrong." "Catch yourself being right." In other words, don't just catch the voice of your inner critic, and stop it from beating up on you. When you do something well, or when you find yourself saying the right things to yourself or to others, be sure to reward yourself: acknowledge yourself verbally, give yourself a pat on the back, or treat yourself to something special.
Yet another way you can learn to love yourself is by being in the practice of using positive affirmations. Take some time to come up with the qualities that you most want to embody. Choose about two or three to focus on for any one period of time. Then try this for at least a month: Repeat those qualities daily, telling yourself that you are those things, already. Whether or not you currently believe it, say it anyway... Again, "Fake it till you make it." For example, take time to tell yourself, each day, "I am happy and successful" or "I am beautiful and bright" or "I love my body: I feel healthy and in balance" or "I am loving, caring, and worthy of love" or "I am powerful and self-confident" ... whatever qualities you wish to be. You may want to write out these affirmations and post them someplace where you will see them regularly: on the bathroom mirror, on the refrigerator door, by the clock in your bedroom, atop your computer monitor, or somewhere in front of your desk at work. Even if, at first, you feel silly or uncomfortable repeating or reading these phrases, you may find that you grow into and become these qualities. You may even realize that you embodied them all along; you just had not realized it.
So, go ahead. Love yourself. Be good to yourself. Treat yourself well. Replenish yourself. You will discover that, the more you love yourself, the more you will be able to give love to others - and the more others will want to be around you and give back to you. This is a win-win situation. Loving yourself will ultimately benefit the lives of others you encounter, as well as your own life.
from Learning To Love Yourself
By Leslie Karen Lobell, M.A.
http://www.artofloving.com/love/loveyourself.htm
Take care of yourself.
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oops that was me, write
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The Dice Man - now that's something I do connect with (and I shall continue to think more about those things I don't yet connect with!).
I read the Dice Man years ago - I lent it to my then boyfriend and he took it a little too seriously. He left me on the roll of a die for another...man!! ;-)
Teenagers? Oh, no. A fine book. An upstanding book. Should be read by everyone.
But 'lighten up' 'take life as it comes'?? Not just now. I was born to be serious. The 'parentified' type. Fortunately, I met a man who is even more 'parentified' than I so he makes me comfortable 'in my skin' as the French say!
Take care
R
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On the topic of isolation and having aquired an N.
Before I met/married my H, I had lots of good friendships too.
Part of the reason I don't really have them any more is that we moved 17 hours away. Making new friends has been much more difficult than I expected it would be. Partly because people here are more transient. But also because I live a life that feels separate from the rest of the world. I am a wife... My H does not like being with other people. So we don't have many mutual friends. Most of my friends are not married, or they have really conservative beliefs about marriage. My old and new friends who are married seem to have healthy marriages, and I am ashamed to talk about what is really going on in my marriage. And I don't want to violate H's privacy or give him a bad reputation.
Only in the past month or so have I begun coming clean to some of my very good (old) friends. Some have been understanding, some have not. I have feelings of not wanting to burdon them repeatedly, because I just can't figure this out. So, am still alone, and afraid of letting others in.
I don't think much about physical death consciously... However, death anxiety is ultimately what makes me want to get out of my marriage, right? I am afraid of dying a spiritual death.
I will have to think more about freedom. I like the thought of being free to choose my own way. However, I am terrible at making decisions. I want to make everyone else happy; I want to do what's "right." I think making "mistakes" causes me to experience death anxiety. I see how this is a "voiceless" issue. We have learned to live for others... and then it is so difficult living/thinking/speaking for ourselves.
Finally on loving one's self. I think those (above) are good suggestions. It's an uphill battle. Lately I have found that while I would like my husband to love me for who I am, I don't need him too. I think that's progress for me. I have not yet gotten to the point of thinking, if he doesn't love me for who I am, then it is bad for me to be married to him, because I have still not found my voice, my freedom, my friends. Not being controled (having freedom) would still make me feel unbearable death anxiety. This idea of loving ones self seems like an appropriate addition, tieing the three together.
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1. Death: I’m going to die
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do
I’m fascinated to see if ACONs are similar! P
Death, no. I've been aware of death most of my life. How I die may have it's issues, like I hope it ain't too damn painful or drawn out. In my sleep in old age please, or at least very quick with clean knickers on. I'm sure like every other issue I've ever had to deal with I'll fudge my way through okay when the time comes. :D
Isolation, no. I'm kind of drawn to it. I've had to make myself un-isolate. Besides, I enjoy most of what goes on in my head most of the time. I feel like I don't get enough time with myself so the isolation thing isn't an issue with me. Or maybe it is! :? I may have read the question wrong.
Meaningless, no. Life never feels meaningless to me really. Not mine and not anyone elses either. I know I've made a positive difference in some people's lives and they in mine. Sometimes, I've had angry moments, I think some people should never have been born. :evil: My mother for example. But then I think something made them that way and maybe try to work out what. And then that's meaningful because I've learnt something and and maybe I make a conscious decision to never have that effect on anybody. So that person who I made that judgment about suddenly became meaningful to me.
Freedom, I guess is the one. At times I've felt I'd rather die than continue to be tormented and repressed by certain people in my life. Not being recognised as an equal human with equal rights is a real challenge to any human spirit. Having my freedom reduced or manipulated is extremely threatening for me. And I get mean. :evil:
I have a friend who likes me to go to the same coffee shop with her for about an 2 hours every Saturday morning. One day I invited another friend along without asking my coffee shop friend's permission or informing her I'd invited someone else. It was very strange and strained the whole time, and I felt like I'd done something terribly wrong. This is a very petty level of freedom issues I realise, but the anxiety and internal conflict it caused in me was ridiculous.
I felt afterwards like I didn't have any rights when I attended coffee sessions. And then I realised I felt obligated to go. I hadn't kept in touch with myself and realised how bored I was with the whole weeekly ritual. Had I subconsciously wanted to get out of it and didn't know how? Did I self destruct the thing by taking a friend along??? blah blah blah? What a waste of life feeling guilty and threatened, but I was. The bottom line was I felt I no longer owned my Friday mornings, this other person did, and I didn't like that. No sirree Bob. Not one little bit.
But it took me ages to realise it. So freedom is the biggee with this little poster. Probably because I had so much of it deprived from me as a child that I demand every little bit I'm entitled to now, and can be quite annoyingly precious about it. I hope this translates in me to being just as precious in respect to other people's freedoms and rights. If so then it's all good learning and growth.
Guest
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1. Death: I’m going to die
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do
I’m fascinated to see if ACONs are similar! P
The bottom line was I felt I no longer owned my Friday mornings, this other person did, and I didn't like that. No sirree Bob. Not one little bit.
Guest
It was my Saturday not Friday mornings, just to clear up a completely inconsistant and totally irrelevant point. (I'm a pain the arse for detail) And I learned something from that experience. Even well meaning, caring friends can appear to be sucking the marrow from your bones if you don't keep in touch with yourself.
She's still my friend and we still go for coffee, and I've had to learn to treat her with more respect and give her credit for being able to handle my being honest. I know I'm not there yet cause I still hate feeling like I've been mean.
When I realised I was mean to not let her know I wasn't enjoying it any more and that I was martyring, which doesn't give off a very pleasant aroma, and smells like week old socks, I realised once again, for the hundredth time (I'm a fast learner too hey) I owe it to my friends to be honest.
Plus I have to admit, I was actually the one responsible for that feeling I had of the marrow being sucked from my bones. She didn't force me to that coffee shop at gun point. I could have said no. Gee, talk about complicate a cheese sandwich.
Thanks Portia for providing these four points for discussion. It's been interesting reading the viewpoints from everyone.
Guest.
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The Isolation at the hands of an N is excruciating. I miss my friends. I miss closeness. I miss feeling like I know where I fit in to the world, in place, time and people. I am aware of these things and although I am working on it, it feels awkward now, separate, whereas before it was an integral part of me.
So, I wonder if Isolation is the choice of those that have acquired an N rather than being born to one.
Gingerpeach, thank you for your kind words. I couldn't agree with this statement more.
But also because I live a life that feels separate from the rest of the world. I am a wife... My H does not like being with other people
Separate, separate... not fitting in place, time and people....that's how it feels. Like there's something wrong with me that makes me not part of the group. Not part of the whole. And because I can't put my finger on it, it nags at me. Shakes my confidence. (my N did not like being with other people either. He was extremely judgemental.)
The first great step has to be leaving the relationship. Saying to Myself that I am okay. Giving the transition time.
Gingerpeach, maybe you're right about spouses of N feeling isolation most accutely.
with friendship,
lynn
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Whoops, I hit submit instead of preview...
write, I want to thank you for your helpful advice. At the core of things, it is likely a self-love issue that trips me up. Your suggestions are so pleasant and kind and nice, I will continue to try to incorporate them into my life.
You will discover that, the more you love yourself, the more you will be able to give love to others - and the more others will want to be around you and give back to you.
It's hard for me to have faith that this is true. But I'm sure gonna try.
lynn
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1. Death: I’m going to die
Big problem for me. I'm not into death at all!!
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
Not a prob. I keep myself entertained all the time.
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
Life is entertaining, even if meaningless, so no problem.
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do
Major problem, since I feel incredibly guilty and obligated all the time!!
bunny
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Post deleted by Richard Grossman--see next post.
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Guest user,
If you have something to say, say it. Otherwise I will delete your post.
Richard
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Portia, what a great topic. Thanks for sharing.
To answer your questions:
Death... No. I am not afraid that the grim reaper is going to pop out from under my bed and get take me to the fiery depths of the underworld. I have no doubts or regrets on any of the decisions that I have made up to this point in my life. Nonetheless, I feel that I have lived life to the best of my ability, and if I died tomorrow, I know that I have lived a full life. Death is a part of life, and when my time comes, it comes.
Isolation... No. Personally, I thrive on isolation. I can never get enough of it. When I am isolated, it is the time when I am most content. It is odd because I identify myself as an introvert, but if you ask anyone who "knows" me or meets me for the first time they would swear that I am an extrovert. At the core, I am an introvert...an introvert who has developed extroverted tendencies.
Meaningless... No. Life can be meaningful just as easily it can be meaningless, it is just a matter of how one approaches life. I am one who approaches life head-on. Whatever life hands me, I throw it right back into life’s face.
Freedom... Yes. My big issue is situated in having my freedom taken away from me. When it comes to me, I have to always be in control, no matter the situation, I always have to have the upper hand. Subsequently, it all boils down to me having to have control. In control of my mind, myself, my choices, my life... If my freedom was taken away from me, I honestly cannot decipher what I would do or how I would cope. My independence is such a prevailing component in my life, without my independence I would be nothing and be nowhere.
Nikole
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i think they all tie in together somehow - death is frightening because i am afraid of being alone at that time (isolation) and that my life will have been meaningless because i died alone. and freedom? ha - how can you experience freedom when you are so afraid and isolated. i am trying to be somewhat funny with that last bit - but does anyone agree?
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PORTIA and ALL
Death
I really am not afraid of death its the cycle of life I was with my sweet mom when she passed I am not afraid. 8)
Isolation There is a plus to my being bipolar the veil or membrane between my mind and the world is thin I seem to have little distintion between "out there" and" in here".
I do not feel isolated.I have no trouble being by myself..............I do not know if this is bad or good or neither???????
Meaning Here is where I love to go on my head trip tripping around but in the end logic is not the highest form of thinking and what I shoot for in meditation are those little blank spaces of no-thought.Thinking thru one's heart Heartsmarts :D
Freedom I did not know what it was before this summer I got it now along with freedom comes responsibility.
Also a freedom of being I am just now "seeing" the vastness :?
I need to move to the other computer my daughter is kicking me off ! :shock:
moon
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wow, this post is a dinosaur...
but a good find condeezi :)
Yes, I agree. I'm struggling the most with freedom, myself. So many people seem to have limited me throughout my life, my Ns in particular... I'd say that I am only now starting to experience real freedom. But it has come only through painful change and recognizing I do have limitations..even if self placed. weird how that works. Can you expound on why this strikes you as funny condee? Is there a particular event that came to mind as you read this? What feelings has it brought up for you (recognizing that all feelings are OK, of course)? If you care to share them.
hi moon - how much freedom can you have when your daughter kicks you off your own computer? :wink:
p bean
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Hey now pbean,
Its OK she had to get stuff for homework so it was for the greater good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
I really do feel good she "let" me finish my post .
I am still taller by an inch I wonder how long that will last?Tee Hee
She's funny and I am still just cool enough to crack her up sometimes.
Fourteen is such a cool age . 8)
Love to you
moon
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Death and Isolation make me just about hyperventilate. I am OK with death if I live day-to-day. Part of my drinking was "just to get it over with." I know that sounds crazy, but I was so scared of it I decided to head into it...
Again, that is from my childhood. My grandmother scared the crap out of me as a kid telling me about how I would die...
Isolation scares me every time I start to think about the fact that I am alone, really. I do realize that there is NO ONE who knows all my thoughts and feelings. This deployment has been hard for me because I realized that I want/need/like to have my husband in my life and I don't like being dependent upon anyone... I realize that I don't NEED him, but I do... to make me happy. Gosh, 14 years and his dumb statements about how we will be all saggy together sitting on a beach somewhere and I still don't trust him!!!!!
Thanks for a difficult subject, Portia. It is something I need to face...
Love, Beth
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wow, to think we were all posting a couple of years and more....how time passes. So much has happened to us all in that time.
Death Isolation Meaningless Freedom:
I was exposed to too much death as a child and it frightened me for a long time, especially as I don't believe in a physical 'heaven'. Then I internalised a lot of pantheist poems, and felt it would all be okay somehow I don't know yet.
I sometimes feel isolated, but I also don't like someone in my space all the time...now I'm getting used to it I like living alone.
It's been a good life creating meaningful work and relationships. And I see it as fluid, I can keep changing ( growing! ) forever....there's never a time I will have experienced everything....
Freedom, that's a mixed one. We all need 'grounding' somewhere. Responsibility is good for that. But I hate feeling trapped, I couldn't wait to grow up and make my own decisions, and I really enjoy my agency in the world.
I guess my biggest 'therapy' fears are irrational now: that I am unloveable/unacceptable and that I will die from painful experiences, they go back to my earliest days with my mother before I even have proper memories. My earliest memories I was frightened, and I've done lots of things over the years to ameliorate those fears, it was only therapy which put them in context but they still come out like tonight when I am feeling ill and a little afraid for the future.
They don't affect my decisions or behaviour though. I guess I may always have some residue of the anxiety, it's also a part of the bipolar, agitation.
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Yes this is an old thread! I think I sound different now.
Condeezi :D
I’ve thought about death a lot, from when I was very young, and rather intensively recently. I’ve read about what happens when you die from say, starvation, how the body slowly shuts down and what causes eventual death is the lack of energy to take a breath. The action of breathing requires too much effort. By that stage the body has gone through so many changes, shutting down vital organs one by one, that I wonder if the brain is aware at all of what is happening.
I fear suffering, but not the moment of dying. The alternative is to live forever and I would find that idea far more frightening than having a limited life-span.
With children and grandchildren, it’s unlikely that you’ll die alone? I think I might die alone and I suppose I’ve been mentally preparing for that, imagining how etc. I refuse to be afraid of these things now and thinking about certain things, thinking about the real practicalities, helps remove the fear. Fear generally is of the unknown, so I try and make it known, whatever it is.
We’re all isolated (inside our own heads) but we’re all the same in that respect. I think we create meaning by our relationships with each other, with animals, with the physical world. We have the freedom to choose who and what we make relationships with; we choose every moment what we do, how we relate, connect, and that is freedom!
Losing the fears is the key to losing the other negative thoughts and feelings. So what is frightening about being alone when you die? What are the real fears in there?
Moon
the veil or membrane between my mind and the world is thin I seem to have little distintion between "out there" and" in here".
Not sure if this is due to BP or due to an enhanced awareness of how things are interconnected. :D
I do not feel isolated.I have no trouble being by myself..............I do not know if this is bad or good or neither???????
It’s what you want it to be!
what I shoot for in meditation are those little blank spaces of no-thought
Are you aware of ‘time’ in those spaces? I feel most aware of ‘time’ (of being alive?) when I’m most still. Usually outside, usually at night. The world is and there’s a beating heart.
along with freedom comes responsibility.
Everything is balance! 8)
Beth
I’ve asked about your grandmother and death elsewhere but if you want to talk here…
Trust – huge issue! How do we ever get to trust other people and their intentions? By strengthening ourselves / selves and trusting ourselves more and more: when we intimately know and trust our own intentions, then we can trust our judgement of others. Strangely enough, as I come to trust myself more, I expect less from others and therefore find…I don’t need to trust them as such. I sort of accept them for whatever they do and align my own actions accordingly. 100% trust of another person is pretty impossible I think: what if they have a brain injury and change? What if they unknowingly take some psychoactive drug and behave totally differently, where is the trust in ‘them’ then? Everything shifts and changes all the time so trusting ourselves is paramount; even as we continue to shift and change…..what don’t you trust about your relationship with your H?
Or is because you feel that you need him, that you invest so much of your happiness in him, that this makes you vulnerable / exposed and you don’t like that lack of control? He is in control of your happiness?
Write
something strikes me: you have the gift of a healthy 10 year old child and yet you say you live alone! You have a child who will most probably be at your side when you die, isn’t that important, a comfort?
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More on death :D. Here’s a link to an article on death, how we view it, and an excerpt below. Click here http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/setup.htm and then from: left menu select Recent Articles, Information Exchange, What Death Means To Us.
Excerpt:
Throughout our childhood we are constantly being told that we are not good enough. We are punished for our wickedness and exhorted to be good. We enter adult life with the constant worry, "Am I good enough?"
By ‘good’ we can mean many things, not just the usual virtues of honesty, truthfulness, generosity and so on, but the qualities which earn other people’s attention and admiration, such as being successful or being attractive or loveable. We each plan our lives in terms of how we define ‘good’ and ‘death’. As adults we can be so busy living our lives that we never make conscious, much less critically review, the meanings we have given to ‘good’ and ‘death’. We tell ourselves that where death is concerned we are the exception. Then one day we discover there are no exceptions. Threatened with death, we review our life.
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The alternative is to live forever and I would find that idea far more frightening than having a limited life-span
I have never thought of this P - you're right. Terrifying!!
bean
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Yeah :D it's the thought of having to work forever..... :P :roll:
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Write
something strikes me: you have the gift of a healthy 10 year old child and yet you say you live alone! You have a child who will most probably be at your side when you die, isn’t that important, a comfort?
my child and I are close, yes, he's a gift and he will always be a light in my life. Is he my life companion- absolutely not!
This thread is about the existential causes of therapeutic breakdown. He does not feature in the dynamics of that except it is a meaningful thing to do, raise a healthy happy child.
But it's something I notice over and over with parents I know, even those who would not be consciously controlling or abusive: they are in on the dynamics of the child's psyche, already have strong notions about aspects of the person's life which to my way of parenting are nothing to do with me.
I provide the values and modelling, and a comfortable safe environment, it's up to my son to grow up to be who he needs to be.
My friend who just had the baby had tears when I pointed out that I was raising him to be independent and go off from me to fulfil himself- she cannot yet imagine a separation point from her beautiful tiny baby.
But separation is not only inevitable it is healthy.
And in terms of giving meaning to my own life- I would never lean on my son to do that. He does not need to be engulfed in my big personality for one thing, but I see it as abusive to interfere and try to control the person he will become just because I am lonely, and doubly abusive to lean on him whilst I have been going through trauma.
He needs his childhood now and his personhood later.
Isn't that the whole point of this Board- we're reclaiming ourselves after having been swamped and disrespected by people close to us? Didn't it do unbelievable damage to not be respected and heard and allowed to develop our own selves? Wy would I pass that on a generation?
My son is not my purpose for living, and I certainly would not want to be his now or when he's grown up.
His voice and mine may share echos of each other but we are already two distinctly different separate people. We enjoy each other and support each other but it's mostly me supporting him- I guess the balance will tip a little as he grows up...and maybe one day we'll have a friendship, but it is quite a unique relationship and most people fall into the roles with their parents/kids from time to time! It's not entirely reciprocal.
This way of parenting has its downside- he can be forceful and argumentative for example, there's not much 'just do as I say' and we're not strong authority figures. But he also is already strong and thoughtful and capable. I just step in where I need to as a parent ( his father too ) and he uses his own developing judgement and self-discipline where he can. Therefore he has a strong sense of who he is and is already unafraid of the world and his own power.
I did not have a child to give purpose to me, I had a child because I wanted to nurture a baby to become a grown up. There's a certain amount of reliving your own childhood goes into that of course....but I hope I have given my son the experience I never had- of being accepted and loved unconditionally, with the expectations I have for him being for him to live for himself and fulfil himself not me.
When he's a happy adult living a free life with his own agency- that will be my 'reward', and if he's at my deathbed I hope it's just to say an affectionate 'goodbye and thanks mum' - in a 'so long and thanks for all the fish!' inevitability way, not 'I can't go on without you....' and certainly not bucketloads of resentment or unresolved family and personal issues ( the Staffordshire Way....)
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Wow Write,
there's a lot in there, thank you for taking the time to say so much.
There are things you say that I don't understand, or feel confused about, but what I really did not understand was you saying about living 'alone' when you do indeed share a home with your son and he shares it with you. I mean, that seemed important to me. Am i projecting big time? I really can't tell. On the other hand, if you don't tell people, they don't know, and i didn't know. Now i know. I take things (words) very literally sometimes. I also don't have any children so in that respect I am going to be ignorant about aspects of living with and raising children.
Death
if he's at my deathbed I hope it's just to say an affectionate 'goodbye and thanks mum' - in a 'so long and thanks for all the fish!' inevitability way,
I'm glad! That's what I meant.
not 'I can't go on without you....'
Did you think that's what i meant? i can't imagine a child saying that. Really, I don't think like that. I was thinking that to have been loved in life and to know that when you're dying must be a comfort. But for a child to say that to a parent would be wrong...abnormal, weird and i didn't go anywhere there in my mind, no way.
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one of the big things which is happening to me right now with divorcing Portia is that I am having to let go my son in a way that doesn't feel entirely comfortable to me- moving away from managing his relationship with N-dad for one thing, but also his dad's insecurities mean he wants to be named parent, he wants our son 'more than me' in that way Ns have of I must be the number one or I'm nothing.....
And also, being fair- he does really want to be our son's father, and it has been his saving grace the way he will change for that child, and listen and adapt in a way he never has for anyone/anything else. He is extremely loving and devoted to him, it's extraordinary how he can be that way when it's so unlike him with anyon else.
But I have no illusions- my relationship with my son is not a priority for my ex. I am not a priority for my ex. He will switch off to me as time goes on.
It's really important to me to handle all this positively and not turn our little boy into a battle pawn or to try and lean on him for support in a situation he doesn't understand.
No one understands N unless they have been there, and my son does sometimes comment on his father's unfeeling responses, or the irony of some of his 'about faces' or his dad's negativity or bad temper.
But I can't explain to him 'daddy has a personality disorder' ( wouldn't that be children's book of the year! ) It would make him insecure, he's not capable of fully grasping that daddy can both love him and not love him.
He knows I love him 100%, that I can and will change aspects of myself if necessary, that I don't switch on and off to him.
His relationship with his dad is more fragile, they do it better if it's consistent. And so he is drifting into living with daddy more and more, naturally, as they get into the pattern of resolving this.
I was wrong when i thought he could move back and forth constantly, it made him insecure because daddy can't transition.
It's really important to me to be clear what I am doing right now, not to be hurt or jealous or react negatively to something which is positive for them: he is my son's bigger role model for one thing.
I have to back off Portia and just step in to help manage things, and be waiting to pick up the pieces if ex reverts and things fall apart as they often do for him.
I've always been clear in my mind that I would not repeat my parents' patterns, though ironically I did repeat their behaviour in making a bad marriage & having children anyway/ drinking/ letting things develop to the point of intolerable etc.
But it's not a problem for me to sacrifice anything to my son- so long as it is healthy and in his best interests.
That's probably why I wrote so much- I am projecting out more than my basic parenting philosophy here!
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Oh ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Write)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
so much I don't know. I'm glad you're posting and saying it. Better out than in? I'm going back to read again
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Write, I have to leave off the board for now but a few things…
'daddy has a personality disorder' ( wouldn't that be children's book of the year! )
Wouldn’t it just. Imagine the law suits!
I have to back off Portia and just step in to help manage things, and be waiting to pick up the pieces if ex reverts and things fall apart as they often do for him.
You’re a good mother Write, I think so.
That's probably why I wrote so much- I am projecting out more than my basic parenting philosophy here!
And I’m glad you did write, Write. I learned! Thank you for telling me, us, so I can understand better and think that’s one heck of a situation you’re dealing with and dealing with well too. You're a strong woman Write 8)
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Wonderful dialogue...I'm glad you asked your question, P.
And Write, I felt shame when I read your description of your parenting...I fell so short of that mark.
But you inspire me a lot.
As I go forward with my daughter, I will keep your maturity in mind.
Your son is a very lucky boy. He has the best of you and the best his Dad can do, and you have been, and are, an extraordinarily fine mother.
I am awed. And I thank you for the example.
Hops
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Hi
Meaning is it maybe the blending of matter and spirit and the evolution of humanity?
The warming of one's heart and expansion of consciousness in the face of chaos seems to have great meaning.
Also can we find a way to celebrate life and for each human being to simply feel worthwhile ?
These are good things to ponder ......................and hope to come true for all.
moon
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write,
I think there probably are children's books which deal with this topic, at least in a non-sopecific way. I am sorry I can't offer to research for you, but I bet they are out there.
Plucky