Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JanetLG on May 15, 2007, 12:12:03 PM
Title: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 15, 2007, 12:12:03 PM
I've recently (January 2007) started going to a Unitarian Church (never been to church before, regularly, only weddings, etc.).
I'd wanted to go for months, so it was a big deal to eventually get the courage to go through the door.
Very supportive people, very friendly place. No problems there, then.
But, although I had been looking forward to 'having a good sing', I have found that I CAN'T DO IT. I mouth the words, but haven't the confidence to actually make a noise! I can hear the people around me singing, but I'm petrified of doing it myself. It doesn't really help that, in a Unitarian Church, the hymns are mainly 'modern' ones, not 'traditional' ones that I would have known from singing as a child, so I don't always know the tune (although sometimes there are new words for an old tune, if you see what I mean).
When I was at school, I used to be in the choir, but I remember now that, when I got to about 12 (bad time in the family), that I got thrown out of the choir for 'miming', apparently (they thought) deliberately. I think, now, that my ability to literally 'speak up' for myself had been well and truly stolen from me. This was also the time when I developed anorexia - the last resort of women who have nothing left to control but their food intake.
Has this happened to anyone else? Any tips on getting over this, or do you think it will just subside with time?
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Hopalong on May 15, 2007, 01:18:39 PM
Hey Janet.
You take your time, hon. You are not under pressure to sing. (Or to fake it.)
Hang in, find your little community within the community, do a Covenant Group or ARE class...
Soon enough, one day you will sing.
It makes me happy to hear of a person who's felt voiceless going to a UU church. (I'm a UU too.)
One of my favorite hymns in the new Singing the Journey book, by Libby Roderick, goes:
How could anyone ever tell you You were anything less than beautiful? How could anyone ever tell you You were less than whole? How could anyone fail to notice That your loving is a miracle? How deeply you're connected to my soul.
Hops
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 15, 2007, 02:19:52 PM
Hops and Ami,
Thanks so much for your responses (made me cry again...)
I'm in the UK, Hops, where Unitarian, although similar to UU, is so much rarer as a denomination it's almost off the scale (only 65 Ministers for the whole of the UK). I chose it because they seem so understanding of difference. I'm so surprised by this inability to sing, I so much want to do it, as going to Church makes me feel so much better. Can I get a copy of the 'Singing the Journey' book from somewhere? Those words are so uplifting!
Even 'faking it' by miming seems better than not 'trying' at all. It's as if just 'reading through' the words will be better than not doing anything, somehow. Does that make sense?
Our church congregation is absolutely tiny - 10 of us, including the Minister and his wife, in a major UK city! Only 4 women altogether. Makes it a bit difficult to 'find a niche' in such a small group. I might try their online community, or even the American UU forums, for support from others with an understanding?
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Hopalong on May 15, 2007, 03:35:21 PM
Wow, I didn't realize we were so sparse in the UK...
Janet, here's more support...hope it helps! I understand CLF people do meet. And there are conferences, gatherings, too. If I'm ever in the UK I'll sure look them up!
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Overcomer on May 15, 2007, 05:08:58 PM
Funny.................my husband and I started going to one of the fastest growing churches in the state......they sing songs and when I know them, I belt them out.............he never sings because he knows he cannot carry a tune. But there is this one woman..........we have decided to not sit by her if we can avoid it. She was singing so loud and off key. When everyone else ended the note, it was like she kept singing it.........vibrato. I almost laughed out loud.....got tickled. So I predict, if you can sing and carry a tune, if you just sing lightly, you will be fine. And maybe it is the not knowing that is stopping you. Believe me, when you hear a song enough times, you start to at least hum it...........
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 16, 2007, 05:13:07 PM
Hops,
Thanks very much for the link to the UU clf sites, etc. I hadn't heard of them. I've subscribed to a couple of digests, etc, so perhaps I'll feel a bit less isolated, now. There's so much online UU contacts that are American-based, and so few English ones. The Unitarians in the US are far bigger than in the UK - you've got about 220,000, I think I read somewhere - in the UK, we've got about 5,500. Small, but select! Hopefully, as I get more used to going to Church at all, this inability to sing will subside.
Overcomer,
Yes, I'm hoping that when I become more familiar with the tunes, that I'll just join in without thinking, but at the moment it's all so different for me, that I find it hard to stay focussed. 'Mindful prayer' is almost impossible for me, as my mind just keeps wandering.
Ami,
That's the first time I have ever heard someone else describe anorexia/eating disorders (or whatever you label what you went through with your food issue - I'm not sure if you'd call it anorexia) in the same terms that I do. I think it's so much linked to creativity, and your life force being stifled by the N (in my case, my NMum, then Nbf, and more recently Nsister). The lasting effect is this awful inability to nurture yourself which is right at the core of it, I think.
I hope you don't think I'm 'cutting you off in mid-sentence', as it were, but I'm thinking that this subject of eating disorders and nurture deserves a thread of its own, as anyone looking for eating disorder info won't find it easily in a thread with this title, so I'm going to start one with the title ' Reasons for anorexia and eating disorders' - can we continue discussing this there?
Thanks for thinking like I do - it makes me feel I'm not crazy!! (Well, not much, anyway)
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 16, 2007, 06:14:15 PM
"I felt as if I am doing something wrong when I nurtured myself . . I still do. "
Ami, are you SURE you're not me? (Oh no, I'm turning into an N!! I'm telling you you're me! Didn't mean it like that!)
As an example of how difficult I find it to nurture myself, I *forced* myself to have a bubble bath tonight, and feel really guilty now. That's not normal, is it?
I have started the other thread, now, but I think I've rambled - have a look. I'll be interested in what you think. Have you started playing the piano again yet?
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: cat on May 18, 2007, 01:18:31 PM
I have also found it hard - sometimes in church - to sing praise and worship. It's like the voice is gone.
And yet. . . we are told to offer praise and worship. And you know what - sometimes it's the most difficult thing to do when you're in a really hard spot in your life. I mean - it's like making a sacrifice. Isn't that crazy? Who would ever call singing praise in church a sacrifice. But when your voice is gone - and you don't feel like singing - it is a sacrifice. Because it's the furthest thing from you that you want to do.
As your voice slowly rips out of you - you realize it's a sacrifice - and it's difficult - and then all of a sudden it gets a little easier. Then it gets even easier. If all you can do is open your mouth and mouth the words - that's a step. . . keep on going. Even mouthing the words sounds like it's a sacrifice of praise.
You are on your way. . . ! cat
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 18, 2007, 01:55:22 PM
Thanks for that, Cat. I do feel like it's a real sacrifice just to mouth the words, but I'll keep trying to make a noise (hopefully, a pleasant one!) as I really want to conquer this one!
It's another case of proving to myself that my NMum can't take it ALL away.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Overcomer on May 19, 2007, 10:22:45 AM
Sometimes when I am in church I just bow my head and listen or even look up and listen-I think this is a way to worship-I think it is between you and God. And on the topic of NEVER getting over this or having to deal with one thing after another? Read Joyce Meyer's story. She is my inspiration! Just yesterday my mom and I were driving and she talked about me manipulating HER! And I guess in a way I do. I try desperately to make her change or admit that she has problems-SHE WILL NOT-cannot.
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: WRITE on May 24, 2007, 10:55:23 AM
sometimes when I sing in church it's like the voice doesn't come from me, it's a really spiritual thing.
Even when my voice was muted I always sang a bit.
Now dance- I remember a wound from ex with this. I was at a party in my twenties, having a great time dancing when he came up close behind me , I thought he was going to be affectionate but he hissed 'have you seen yourself? You look ridiculous. You can't dance...!'
I was so stunned I stopped and though I left him the year after and began that dance....I never danced or even swayed for years until I started to unbend after therapy.
There is a Walt Whitman line of poetry:
Undrape! you are not guilty to me, nor stale nor discarded
it made me cry for years whenever I read it.
I am tearful today thinking of my dying friend, I wonder if they will ask me to sing for her funeral and if I will be able to do it if they do...
There's a hymn I've always loved:
My life flows on in endless song; Above earth’s lamentation I hear the sweet though far off hymn That hails a new creation: Through all the tumult and the strife I hear the music ringing; It finds an echo in my soul— How can I keep from singing?
The Unitarians made it into a champion of bravery song with
Through all the tumult and the strife I hear the music ringing. It sounds an echo in my soul. How can I keep from singing! What though the tempest 'round me roars, I know the truth, it liveth. What though the darkness 'round me close, Songs in the night it giveth. No storm can shake my inmost calm While to that rock I'm clinging. Since love prevails in heav'n and earth, How can I keep from singing!
but the Christians end it
I lift mine eyes; the cloud grows thin; I see the blue above it; And day by day this pathway smoothes Since first I learned to love it: The peace of Christ makes fresh my heart, A fountain ever springing: All things are mine since I am His— How can I keep from singing?
How indeed. Hope you find your voice, Janet.
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Hopalong on May 24, 2007, 11:45:12 AM
Write, I'm started my day singing! Or feeling sung to. I love that hymn very much. One of my favorites is the oooold one, Come Ye Disconsolate. Roberta Flack and Donny Hathaway recorded it as a duet and it's breathtaking.
CB, What joy your story brought. Thank you sos os osososososo much.
off to work (late)
Hops
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: WRITE on May 24, 2007, 12:06:34 PM
off to work (late)
I can't seem to get started today! Supposed to be exploring composition software and backing up my finance records...
he would be the man who danced.
wow, powerful stuff CB.
There's a modern Christian hymn they play on the radio here, Chris Rice Untitled Hymn beautiful. It ends:
O, and when the love spills over And music fills the night And when you can't contain your joy inside, then Dance for Jesus Dance for Jesus Dance for Jesus and live!
Jesus said his generation were like children in the marketplace,
We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
he means that in the expectations and controls we place on others we miss the miracles which occur everyday around us.
I must go and live my day, the last day of my son's elementary education, tomorrow begins 13 weeks of summer vacation. Many things have ended for me recently, and summer is always full of endings rather than beginnings, a sleepy time of year in the heat.
The Chris Rice song ends:
And with your final heartbeat Kiss the world goodbye Then go in peace, and laugh on Glory's side, and Fly to Jesus Fly to Jesus Fly to Jesus and live!
That's not quite my beliefs, but I am going to go and pray and get on with my day.
Thanks for my space here to let out my feelings today:
Give sorrow words; the grief that does not speak whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break. ~William Shakespeare
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 24, 2007, 01:53:53 PM
Write,
Those are beautiful words. We have had that as a hymn in our Unitarian Church once so far (I've only been going for a few months), and I *almost* could sing that one, as I knew it already, and I just love the words - Enya recorded it about 10 years ago, but I didn't know it was a hymn, then.
CB,
Wow, dancing is another issue altogether. I remember dancing to music on the radio when I was about 4, and when my Mum came into the room and saw me, she quickly backed out again, saying ' It's alright, you can carry on dancing - I WON'T LOOK'!
I hated dancing from then on, as I felt there was a reason for my dancing being so embarrassing (and therefore my *fault*) that even my mum didn't want to look at me. I hardly ever danced after that, if I could possibly avoid it. I only saw her dance once, and she reminded me of how I would expect Margaret Thatcher to dance.
When you describe the little children dancing in the asiles, CB, it sounds just so *joyful*, they are so lucky to feel like that. No-one should ever be able to spoil that feeling.
When I was about to get married, at 31, I was dreading the reception, when me and my husband would be expected to 'start the dancing'. However, I was so happy on the day that, in the event, it didn't bother me at all, and I ended up dancing all evening, while my mother sat, stony faced, in the corner.
After that, the spell was broken, and I enjoyed dancing again. About a year after I got married, I went on a 'girly night out' to a Seventies' Tribute Band concert (sad, but true). This was at Earl's Court, which holds about 10,000 people. My friend, Terri, wanted to dance in the aisle early on in the concert, but wanted me to get up with her. No-one else was dancing, and I was apprehensive, as I didn't want to attract attention, but I got up anyway. THEY PUT THE SPOTLIGHT ON US! OH, MY GOD! I managed to keep going, and we encouraged most of the audience to get up and dance,too, and it was great. When I think what my Mum tried to stop me doing when I was 4, I wonder what on earth was in her mind, other than her own inadequacy.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Hopalong on May 24, 2007, 03:20:40 PM
Yikes. My mother was raised in a very very strict fundamentalist denomination. They did not: drink, smoke, dance, go to movies, or wear makeup.
I think the dancing prohibition/inhibition came from the desire to repress children's natural sensuality/sexuality...their joy in their bodies.
We're descended from the Puritans here.
Those dancin' fools...
Hops
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 27, 2007, 08:59:54 PM
I've just got to post this now (at 2am) - I went to church today (well, yesterday, now) and one of the hymns was 'How can I keep from singing?' AND I COULD SING IT! And the other three hymns, too! It was so brilliant! I was buzzing, I was so pleased.
Thanks so much to everyone on this thread who helped me get over this one. It'll be easier still, next time, I'm sure.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Hopalong on May 27, 2007, 11:57:10 PM
:D :D
happy happy for you Janet!
Hops
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: finding peace on May 28, 2007, 11:54:04 AM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!YEAH - I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 28, 2007, 05:10:52 PM
Thank you, thank you for the lovely comments - I really feel as if I've got over a BIG block with this one!! (Still can't quite believe it, actually)
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: WRITE on May 29, 2007, 03:28:05 PM
went to church today (well, yesterday, now) and one of the hymns was 'How can I keep from singing?' AND I COULD SING IT!
isn't that wonderful!!!
Synchronicity too. Perfect.
I don't sing because I'm happy; I'm happy because I sing ~ William James
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 29, 2007, 03:52:18 PM
Write,
Yes, I couldn't quite believe the synchronicity at first, either. When I first got into the chapel, I looked at the hymn numbers up on the board, and I thought, 'They look familiar - in fact, they're the ones we had LAST time!' So, I went and had a word with the organist, and he went 'Oops!' and changed them. A tingle went down my spine when I realised what he was changing them to! It was just so weird.
I love that William James quotation. I can relate to it NOW!!!
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 30, 2007, 01:17:26 PM
Ami,
That's an interesting idea. When I lived with an Nboyfirend for 6 years in my twenties, I ended up feeling so flat and useless that I stopped doing my embroidery for almost all of the 6 years I was with him. now, I find it difficult to believe I did that.
When I started getting stronger (as I put on weight and got over my anorexia) I started doing embroidery again - but he sometimes deliberately damaged my 'work in progress' when I wasn't looking - like spilling paint on it, or cutting it, etc. He knew it was important to me, and had to try to stop it.
Isn't that awful?
Still, as with you, you know what enriches you inside, and *eventually* you get to have another go, free from the controlling N.
What have you been reading? Have you re-started playing the piano yet?
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: WRITE on May 30, 2007, 02:09:21 PM
I ended up feeling so flat and useless that I stopped doing my embroidery for almost all of the 6 years I was with him. now, I find it difficult to believe I did that.
When I started getting stronger (as I put on weight and got over my anorexia) I started doing embroidery again - but he sometimes deliberately damaged my 'work in progress' when I wasn't looking - like spilling paint on it, or cutting it, etc. He knew it was important to me, and had to try to stop it.
Isn't that awful?
yes, two awful things:
ending something we love to 'fit' with another; and sabotage.
I have to say as I am learning how to do healthy relationships it is interesting how often we subconsciously do all this stuff too- not all of it is overt malice.
I don't want to sing on the 10 th for something because I don't like the woman who is directing and I found myself thinking yesterday I nedn't go, it will be a rush etc, making excuses...and then realising that I was secretly delighted to spoil it for her. The difference is I suppose I will fulfill my commitment, I am even rather amused to find I am so much more human than I thought, didn't see that coming....and it is maybe a sign I am recovering to drop this 'good girl' stuff!
But I have found a secret vein of resentment in others which they do not see as such, which sabotages your best efforts sometimes.....
even sometimes disguised as 'helping'. And I know for myself sometimes my zeal isn't healthy, I have the courage of my convictions and I like that, but I also need to let other people be even if I don't agree with them or sometimes can see how they are even causing problems etc
I'm getting better at that.
And my singing voice gets better all the time too Janet, if you'd told me a few years ago in my forties I would again be singing, this time for a living, I would have been stunned.
I tell jokes and stories too, and never have a moment's stage fright!
I am reclaiming what my mother stole from me.
maybe she just borrowed it Ami, and now you are asking for it back?
I rememeber clearly praying one day to that effect, I would like my health and my life, love and peace. I distinctly asked G_d for it.
People recover from the most amazing things don't they? I worked yesterday witha lady whose only child was raped and murdered a year ago, when we started working together she was so in pain, yet she has helped me turn this place around musically, she totally 'gets' being an entertainer and motivator, and she told me it is helping her come to terms with living with a loss she just can't assimilate.
She heals others through her pain, it is amazing to see how much love flows around this woman.
I can't help but feel if G_d or good or whatever we want to call it gives strength to her in those circumstances, it will be okay for me and you too.
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 30, 2007, 04:33:56 PM
Write,
I think women are particularly good at 'fitting in' with others, especially in relationships. Their own sense of self is often (not always, I know) too weak to say 'this is what I like to do - get used to it' - even if said politely!
I had a friend who started going out with a new boyfriend, and within two weeks had ditched all her Glam Rock CD's to buy Country and Western! When I said to her 'but you HATE C & W' she said 'I'm getting used to it...' and looked a bit forlorn. Not only was she giving up what she loved, she was trying really hard to like something she felt nothing for. I know I've done the same, many, many times. I think, though, that I was able to see it in her easier than I can see it in myself.
More self-confidence needed, I suppose.
Great about your singing. I think I'd die if I had to sing on stage! I think you're very brave.
The woman whose daughter died such a horrible death has amazing strength - thanks for sharing that about her.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Hopalong on May 31, 2007, 12:07:43 AM
The word's anhedonia, Ami, and it brings me joy to hear you broke past it.
In fact, I'm awed.
I think the moment where you let forgiveness in, was the moment when joy had room to slip in beside it.
I am very happy for you.
Hops
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: WRITE on May 31, 2007, 02:40:11 PM
I think women are particularly good at 'fitting in' with others, especially in relationships.
absolutely, it's a strength if you want to nurture others!
'but you HATE C & W' she said 'I'm getting used to it...' and looked a bit forlorn.
we can take to pathetic extremes though!
You decided to do the right thing,no matter if someone else would not have
thanks for pointing that out Ami, it's tough sometimes when no one else notices something you do that is hard to swallow!
I tell myself 'G_d "sees" everything'....
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 31, 2007, 05:37:15 PM
Ami,
You wrote:
"This is my mother. She will kill me."
Oh no she won't, because you know what she's up to, and you can rise above her level now, even though it's really hard. No-one wants or chooses a mother like yours (or mine), but we've got to deal with what we were dealt, that's all. You can't change her, but you can change yourself, which you are doing.
I know what you mean about your mother's actual death in the future being just a formalisation of how you feel already - I expect to feel relief and closure when I hear of my Nmum's death. For me, she died 13 years ago, when I started NC.
You can work on reconstructing the value system that your grandmother started in you, and you can learn from books, experiences, and people on here - it could take ages, it might be quick, but any move forward is better than going back to what you had to put up with before.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on May 31, 2007, 07:00:23 PM
Ami,
RED ALERT!! RED ALERT!!!
If your NMum appears to be *agreeing* with you, you can be sure it's a trap - she wants to give you enough rope so that you can metaphorically hang yourself.
Please, be VERY careful. She's got a plan up her sleeve, you just don't know what it is yet.
If you agree with her that it was hard to have her for a mother, she'll have you going over the past when you're trying to move on from that. Any discussion, even an argument, will give her Nsupply - and she'll love that, but you will be made to feel dreadful by the turmoil it creates in you.
If you disagree with her and say that she wasn't *so* bad, you'll be lying to yourself, and screwing yourself up to please her, which she'll love as well, because it'll cast her in a good light.
Either way, she feels better, and you feel worse.
The only way to respond is NOT TO RESPOND AT ALL. Just ignore what she's said. Excruciatingly difficult to do (and I should know...how many times have I fallen for that one?), but it's the only way to win. And you need to win this one.
She might be trying to get you to say something in particular, so that she can quote you to others, to back up her version of events. I'm guessing here. Does she know that your stomach pains have been going away? She might have realised she's losing her power over you, and she'll be terrified of that happening.
Just be very careful, please. You're right, it's a ploy.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on June 01, 2007, 05:47:47 AM
Ami,
I'm sorry my post made you cry, but they're good tears, really. Lots of people on this board care about you - this is the most supportive forum I've ever come across. Wish I'd found it before I spent thousands on therapy!
You're right, she knows you are healing, and she won't like that one bit.
When I started recovering from 12 years of life-threateningly serious anorexia (my weight hovered around 75 lbs for all of that time), my Nmum, despite having *said* for years that she was 'worried sick' (but never actually *helped*), told me 'I used to like it better when you were thin - you'd do as you were told then'.
What an admission!
When my weight went up to only 85 lbs, her and my sister started to say I was 'fat', even though I never had the (apparently 'universal') anorexic tendency to have a distorted view of my body size myself. They knew I was slipping away from their clutches, and they got far more severe in their methods to try to get me back. My sister is still trying it, although my Mum doesn't try directly any more (she gets her latest boyfriend to do it instead).
Health is a very good indicator of how we feel inside - so if you are healing your stomach pains, then your psychological healing is obviously taking place, too. It's visible in your postings here - you've come such a long way already. I should think your mother can spot it a mile off, too, although, unlike us here, she hates it, while we love it!
What a good thing that she lives a long way from you. That will make it easier for you. My Mum lived 10 minutes' drive from me for years (now it's 350 miles - YES!!!).
Possibly, what she might try next, if you don't respond, is to get other people to contact you for the response, so be ready for that one - the answer should still be NOTHING. Not even an 'I don't want to discuss it.' They'll only say 'Why not?'...and you'd be staright back in, discussing reasons that will get shot down. NC is the only answer, I'm afraid, and that's really hard.
How does she contact you? By email? Blocking it might be easier, as then you wouldn't have to even read her stuff. Phone calls are harder, but Caller ID is wonderful! We call it the 'Anti-Mother Identification Unit'.
As to being lonely - you can know dozens of people, but with this subject, hardly anyone will talk about it, so, yes, it's lonely. On here, though, it's different, so keep talking!
I think your grandmother must have been a very special person - you were lucky to have her in your life. Was that your mother's or father's mother?
Try to have a good day, Ami.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on June 01, 2007, 07:51:17 AM
Ami,
What CB says is exactly right - it doesn't sound like a REAL apology, it sounds like what an android would think a human might say in a similar situation. But N's don't get it, with apologies. Have alook at this site, for Christian views on N's apologies:
The wording N's use is crucial. They have to say they are sorry for what they DID. Not say sorry that *you* got upset by something-or-other (probably your fault anyway, you've always been a bit screwy, blah, blah, blah...)'.
It's jusy not the same thing at all.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Ami on June 01, 2007, 09:24:49 AM
Dear Janet CB,Hops, WRITE,Peace, Cat and Kelly, I just looked at that website on apologies. WOW- another slap in the face. All her apologies have always been like this. I never saw it in writing before. it is powerful to see. I am lonely because I am separated from myself. This type of loneliness can't be cured by people. It is an inside loneliness. The board really helps more than anything because I am at the stage of trying to "excavate" myself from under all these N ideas that I "swallowed".I don't feel connected to other people ,usually, because I am not connected to myself. I feel like there are so many layers of distorted thinking.I feel like I am at the bottom of a lake and I can't get up to the top where my relationships would be. It seems like too much work to be with people. However, I see my best friend Maria twice a week. She has been going through a bad depression so she understands now what I have been going through Now, it seems easier to connect with her. She was trying to help me but she did not understand things like not experiencing joy etc. Now, she understands and so it is easier. I remember when I was younger. I used to read,"The Prophet" by Gibran. He said that there had to be "spaces in your togetherness"He was saying that you can only get so close to another person. The next logical step would be that your primary relationship is with yourself. This is where I have a disconnect. I am just hoping and praying for a total healing where I will want to be with people rather than have to force myself. I guess that I really feel a big loss in not having extended family. Family has a warmth that friends do not- unless I am off in this.I would like your opinion on this. The last time that I truly connected to another person was when I was 14 with my 2 best friends. I was connected because I had a self and I knew where I began and ended. Now, I am amorphous. I don;t know where I begin and end .so i am fearful and uncomfortable with relationships. Also, I am afraid of anger. As I said above, I hope and pray for a total healing I have so much love and thanks to you for helping me Love Ami
P.S. Also, I don't know what is better to do when you are going through this pain-just to let it wash over you or to do something else to get away from it. What do you think?
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: JanetLG on June 01, 2007, 10:56:49 AM
Ami,
Wow, there's a lot in there to reply to.
I think that website is great. It's huge, and always being updated, and sooooo relevant.
When I was having counselling once, the counsellor told me that I often looked 'blank', and I didn't know what she meant. I said I always look like this, and she said yes, I suppose you do, but you're blank. I think she meant my face showed little expression, because I didn't allow myself to *feel* much, inside. I'm working on that, now, but it's hard. The emotion I can feel most easily is anger - that one comes out so often! But any other emotion has to be worked on.
I think we need to know how to nurture ourselves before we can feel that we want to be with other people, as we don't understand how to 'give' to them properly. It gets a bit superficial, otherwise, if you see what I mean.
I feel that, like you, I have lost out with my extended family, as my NMum told all of the rest of them to stop talking to me, once I started NC with her ('It's either her or ME' - I lost). I only see my Dad, now, and I've recently started emailing an uncle, but other than that, no-one. There's a tendency to think that only family can fill the void of closeness, but I'm not so sure, now. Friends can be wonderful, because you can *choose* those, so the idea of 'having' to see someone just because they're a relative doesn't come into play, and people can be more themselves. Am I making sense here?
I think that, as to how to deal with the pain, the only thing I can suggest is be flexible - sometimes you need to focus on it more, sometimes you need to switch off from it completely and go to the park :-)
But now that your conscious mind is aware of what's going on, your unconscious mind can work on it even while you're doing something 'fun', so you're healing even while you think you're not. It will always be getting better, now, Ami, because of your awareness. Not always in a dead straight line (sometimes a bit wobbly, or apparently going backwards), but the destination's worth it.
Janet
Title: Re: When I'm in Church, I have no voice to sing with
Post by: Ami on June 01, 2007, 03:30:18 PM
Dear Janet, You are right. That sure was a lot to respond to. I needed to write it just to admit these things to myself. in large part. Today, i am so excited to tell you that my friend Maria came over and I felt much more in my body.I was able to be present and to really help her to release a lot of her pent up feelings.As I helped her to heal, God was healing me nore. It is really amazing that she is starting to realize that she had been abused,too. She had not faced it before. As i heal on the board, I am helping her to face her life. She is doing much better and she really appreciated that I let her be "real". I was able to do that because I got more "real. One thing that I am really seeing is that I could not help being"mentally ill." Honestly, people would say to me,"You should appreciate all your blessings,' and "Go help someone else and it will help you." but I was too far down for any of these things to help me. I was just too lost. What this is helping me to see is that the N is "too lost" also. I must go NC because my mother will kill me.. She almost did the job and if I see her, she will finish it off. So, She is dead to me. I have to do this for pure survival. However, I can see that she was so lost and so far gone that she probably could not help how she was. Maybe, she could help individual rages,but she could not help the whole "mental illness.\ I want to finish these thoughts later. I have to go now. Talk to you later and thanks for your posts..I really look forward to them Love Ami