Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: michael on May 16, 2007, 06:51:24 AM
-
We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
-
Good abstract, Michael. Do you have a pre-publication citation, or a URL?
-
their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain.
I have lost any desire to give my H the positive feedback he NEEDS because he demands it from me. This was an interesting theory! But like Ami, most if it I didn't understand. Someone please simplify it and pick it apart!
I am thinking that a self-regulatory efforts means trying to control the attention from others, more commonly known as entitlement, and acting like a child to get it (a tantrum).
-
The narcicisst needs someone to continually say they are "smart", "okay", "great", "RIGHT", "sexy", "worthwhile", all the positive things they don't have the ability to tell themselves and believe it. They have no ability to self-soothe, and so rely on others to do it for them by adulation.
Of course, this makes for very tough interpersonal relations because we assume they have the abilities everyone else does, but soon find out that's wrong. So whatever we do, we are stuck. We can never be just the right amount of adoring for them (the Goldilocks syndrome).
Dandylife
-
Ami, you don't have to ask me how I know that one, do you? :lol:
-
The narcicisst needs someone to continually say they are "smart", "okay", "great", "RIGHT", "sexy", "worthwhile", all the positive things they don't have the ability to tell themselves and believe it. They have no ability to self-soothe, and so rely on others to do it for them by adulation.
Of course, this makes for very tough interpersonal relations because we assume they have the abilities everyone else does, but soon find out that's wrong. So whatever we do, we are stuck. We can never be just the right amount of adoring for them (the Goldilocks syndrome).
Dandylife
This is so good! This is what sent me to counseling for "my" problems: We can never be just the right amount of adoring for them No matter how hard I tried, it was never enough. I thought I was the worst wife in the world and needed help. Eventually I discovered I can never give him all he needs and he discovered I can't measure up to his standards. He was looking to me for his happiness and I wasn't providing it.
-
Your comment was very good, Dandylife. Narcissism, is very hard for me to wrap my brain around. :?
Camper, I wanted to be what he needed, what we all need. Friendship,companionship, his lover.
what more can we all hope for, or want in a mate?? :? These kind of things are what confuses me
I want to be those things for him, yet when I am, he doesn't want it??? I gave him what he wanted??
confused2
-
Could you please explain this more simply?
They're nutters.
mud
-
Interesting idea micheal, you could express it more simply though to say the same thing: does the narcissistic's own behaviour make the narcissist?
continuous external self-affirmation.
this does not necessarily need to be something positive like praise. An NPD will garner attention negatively also, creating drama, posturing, arguing the opposite for the sake of it, refusing to cooperate.
It's almost like a small child having to have reassurance he exists, feeling alone is too scary. A tantrum or slap will suffice if positive strokes aren't happening. Self-destructive behaviours will serve in the absence of any other external reminder. In the small child these are seen as disturbed: scratching, head-banging for example. But later they will become more socialised and playful even if they are signs of disturbance. And later still they will be socially 'normalised' self-destruction and not attract much comment. That is the interesting thing for me about what you write- it's not just for NPD but for all of us.
After creating a life of all these emotional undercurrents and annoying people far and wide, despite very real talents and skills, the NPD isn't going to get the feedback to grow or change like the rest of us even if they want to. We grow because we respond differentially. We change because we look for different outcomes. We tire of suffering before we make efforts to adapt.
Many of us have had the experience of taking on NPD reality for a quiet life or at least trying to make a quiet life. It's not a happy place.
a self-regulatory processing system
none of us can raise ourselves though can we? We are communal. If the NPD is invulnerable to personal growth opportunities because they will not tolerate pain or anxiety ( some say cannot ) to get beyond it then it's a 'closed loop'.
Even if they will listen or read it's an intellectual knowledge rather than an intimate experience?
Personally I think Ns have high PTSD characteristics, their constant outcome is to escape the self-loathing and pain of the initial wound place. It's not a fully developed or even developing personality at all.
They're nutters.
mud
:lol: you could have expressed this in a more complex way so as not to offend those of us with mental illness who might well attract similar labels! :)
Isn't it about time you wrote another piece about living under the riverbank O comedic one? I've missed your writing this year, what have you been doing?
~W
-
you could have expressed this in a more complex way so as not to offend those of us with mental illness who might well attract similar labels!
Complexity is too, how should I put it, complex for my primitive amphibian brain, but you're correct, write. I should have said they're malevolent nutters as opposed to benevolent ones. :D No offense I hope.
I've missed your writing this year, what have you been doing?
A wife with cancer going through chemo for six months takes a bit of the comedic starch out of a guy.
A wife who is in remission and feeling great after chemo doesn't leave me much time to indulge my literary career. I only have time for the occasional insensitive wisecrack now and again. :?
I appreciate the compliment though.
mud
-
I am glad that some found the theory of possible interest.
To help clarify to some, the proposed theory comes from an abstract for something that is online
and to view the full text, i think one has to join some way.
It is not my theory :)
Abstract
Psychological Inquiry
2001, Vol. 12, No. 4, Pages 177-196
(doi:10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_1)
Unraveling the Paradoxes of Narcissism: A Dynamic Self-Regulatory Processing Model
Carolyn C. Morf
Behavioral Science Research Branch, National Institute of Mental Health
Frederick Rhodewalt
Department of Psychology, University of Utah
here is the url
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_1
We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
Cited by
Michael Riketta, René Ziegler. (2007) Self-ambivalence and reactions to success versus failure. European Journal of Social Psychology 37:3, 547
CrossRef
Robert F. Bornstein. (2007) From Surface to Depth: Diagnosis and Assessment in Personality Pathology. Clinical Psychology Science and Practice 14:2, 99
CrossRef
Timothy A. Judge, Jeffery A. LePine, Bruce L. Rich. (2006) Loving Yourself Abundantly: Relationship of the Narcissistic Personality to Self- and Other Perceptions of Workplace Deviance, Leadership, and Task and Contextual Performance.. Journal of Applied Psychology 91:4, 762
CrossRef
Virgil Zeigler-Hill. (2006) Discrepancies Between Implicit and Explicit Self-Esteem: Implications for Narcissism and Self-Esteem Instability. Journal of Personality 74:1, 119
CrossRef
Bernd Marcus, Franz Machilek, Astrid Schütz. (2006) Personality in Cyberspace: Personal Web Sites as Media for Personality Expressions and Impressions.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 90:6, 1014
CrossRef
Robert S. Horton, Geoff Bleau, Brian Drwecki. (2006) Parenting Narcissus: What Are the Links Between Parenting and Narcissism?. Journal of Personality 74:2, 345
CrossRef
Carolyn C. Morf. (2006) Personality Reflected in a Coherent Idiosyncratic Interplay of Intra- and Interpersonal Self-Regulatory Processes. Journal of Personality 74:6, 1527
CrossRef
Robert Bornstein. (2006) Self-schema priming and desire for test performance feedback: Further evaluation of a cognitive/interactionist model of interpersonal dependency. Self and Identity 5:2, 110
CrossRef
Robert F. Bornstein. (2006) A Freudian construct lost and reclaimed: The psychodynamics of personality pathology.. Psychoanalytic Psychology 23:2, 339
CrossRef
Riia K. Luhtanen, Jennifer Crocker. (2005) Alcohol Use in College Students: Effects of Level of Self-Esteem, Narcissism, and Contingencies of Self-Worth.. Psychology of Addictive Behaviors 19:1, 99
CrossRef
Angelina R. Sutin, Richard W. Robins. (2005) Continuity and Correlates of Emotions and Motives in Self-Defining Memories. Journal of Personality 73:3, 793
CrossRef
Kathleen D. Vohs, Roy F. Baumeister, Natalie J. Ciarocco. (2005) Self-Regulation and Self-Presentation: Regulatory Resource Depletion Impairs Impression Management and Effortful Self-Presentation Depletes Regulatory Resources.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 88:4, 632
CrossRef
Erez Banai, Mario Mikulincer, Phillip R. Shaver. (2005) "Selfobject" Needs in Kohut's Self Psychology: Links With Attachment, Self-Cohesion, Affect Regulation, and Adjustment.. Psychoanalytic Psychology 22:2, 224
CrossRef
Hessel Zondag. (2005) Between Imposing One’s Will and Protecting Oneself. Narcissism and the Meaning of Life among Dutch Pastors. Journal of Religion and Health 44:4, 413
CrossRef
Robert F. Bornstein, H. Mei Ng, Heather A. Gallagher, Deanna M. Kloss, Natalie G. Regier. (2005) Contrasting Effects of Self-Schema Priming on Lexical Decisions and Interpersonal Stroop Task Performance: Evidence for a Cognitive/Interactionist Model of Interpersonal Dependency. Journal of Personality 73:3, 731
CrossRef
Leo d'Anjou. (2005) Narcisme, Populisme en Politiek. Sociologie 1:3, 271
CrossRef
W. Keith Campbell, Angelica M. Bonacci, Jeremy Shelton, Julie J. Exline, Brad J. Bushman. (2004) Psychological Entitlement: Interpersonal Consequences and Validation of a Self-Report Measure. Journal of Personality Assessment 83:1, 29-45
Online publication date: 1-Aug-2004.
Abstract | Printable PDF (220 KB) | PDF with links (232 KB)
Jessica L. Tracy, Richard W. Robins. (2004) TARGET ARTICLE: "Putting the Self Into Self-Conscious Emotions: A Theoretical Model". Psychological Inquiry 15:2, 103-125
Online publication date: 1-Apr-2004.
Abstract | Printable PDF (158 KB) | PDF with links (196 KB)
Jessica L. Tracy, Richard W. Robins. (2004) AUTHORS' RESPONSE: "Keeping the Self in Self-Conscious Emotions: Further Arguments for a Theoretical Model". Psychological Inquiry 15:2, 171-177
Online publication date: 1-Apr-2004.
Citation | Printable PDF (60 KB) | PDF with links (62 KB)
(2004) COMMENTARIES on "Putting the Self Into Self-Conscious Emotions: A Theoretical Model". Psychological Inquiry 15:2, 126-170
Online publication date: 1-Apr-2004.
Citation | Printable PDF (266 KB) | PDF with links (315 KB)
W. Keith Campbell, Adam S. Goodie, Joshua D. Foster. (2004) Narcissism, confidence, and risk attitude. Journal of Behavioral Decision Making 17:4, 297
CrossRef
Jennifer Crocker, Lora E. Park. (2004) The Costly Pursuit of Self-Esteem.. Psychological Bulletin 130:3, 392
CrossRef
Julie Juola Exline, Roy F. Baumeister, Brad J. Bushman, W. Keith Campbell, Eli J. Finkel. (2004) Too Proud to Let Go: Narcissistic Entitlement as a Barrier to Forgiveness.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 87:6, 894
CrossRef
Constantine Sedikides, Eric A. Rudich, Aiden P. Gregg, Madoka Kumashiro, Caryl Rusbult. (2004) Are Normal Narcissists Psychologically Healthy?: Self-Esteem Matters.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 87:3, 400
CrossRef
Virginia S. Y. Kwan, Oliver P. John, David A. Kenny, Michael H. Bond, Richard W. Robins. (2004) Reconceptualizing Individual Differences in Self-Enhancement Bias: An Interpersonal Approach.. Psychological Review 111:1, 94
CrossRef
Michael H. Kernis. (2003) TARGET ARTICLE: Toward a Conceptualization of Optimal Self-Esteem. Psychological Inquiry 14:1, 1-26
Online publication date: 1-Jan-2003.
Abstract | Printable PDF (150 KB) | PDF with links (171 KB)
(2003) COMMENTARIES on "Toward a Conceptualization of Optimal Self-Esteem". Psychological Inquiry 14:1, 27-82
Online publication date: 1-Jan-2003.
Citation | Printable PDF (337 KB) | PDF with links (335 KB)
Brad J. Bushman, Angelicca M. Bonacci, Mirjam van Dijk, Roy F. Baumeister. (2003) Narcissism, sexual refusal, and aggression: Testing a narcissistic reactance model of sexual coercion.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 84:5, 1027
CrossRef
Delroy L. Paulhus, P. D. Harms, M. Nadine Bruce, Daria C. Lysy. (2003) The over-claiming technique: Measuring self-enhancement independent of ability.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 84:4, 890
CrossRef
Robert F. Bornstein. (2003) Behaviorally Referenced Experimentation And Symptom Validation: A Paradigm For 21st-Century Personality Disorder Research. Journal of Personality Disorders 17:1, 1
CrossRef
W. Keith Campbell, Craig A. Foster, Eli J. Finkel. (2002) Does self-love lead to love for others?: A story of narcissistic game playing.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 83:2, 340
CrossRef
Harry M. Wallace, Roy F. Baumeister. (2002) The performance of narcissists rises and falls with perceived opportunity for glory.. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 82:5, 819
CrossRef
-
i did a google search with
self-regulatory-processing narcissism morf model
and found some of the sites had some pretty interesting articles
that were fully available online....one thing that seems to be a tip off
if it is going to be a full article is when the second line says at the end
View as HTML
For example here is one such article that looked interesting
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/EBBCF04.pdf
entitles TOO PROUD TO LET GO: NARCISSISTIC ENTITLEMENT AS A BARRIER TO FORGIVENESS
-
Thanks, michael! :-)
I know this is a cliche, but I mean it - I hope you have a terrific day!
-
Basically, as I understand it, the cycle can never really provide what the N seeks, and therefore it is impossible to break. Is that in a nutshell?
-
From:
TOO PROUD TO LET GO: NARCISSISTIC ENTITLEMENT AS A BARRIER TO FORGIVENESS
Conclusion
Forgiveness, though widely admired as a virtue, sometimes
brings costs for self-interest. In the wake of deep hurt, those who
forgive must humbly set aside hateful thoughts and vengeful
fantasies that seem perfectly justified. To forgive means to cancel
a debt, a debt for which one may fully deserve repayment. This
debt metaphor suggests a profile of a person who should be
especially prone to unforgiveness. An unforgiving person should
be someone who is easily offended, highly invested in collecting
on debts owed to the self, and determined to assert his or her rights
in a principled effort to maintain self-respect. As suggested in the
six studies presented here, individuals high in narcissistic entitlement
fit this unforgiving profile in ways not fully captured by
situational factors (e.g., offense severity, apology, and relationship
closeness) or broad-based individual-difference constructs (e.g.,
agreeableness, neuroticism, religiosity, social desirability). These
findings suggest that narcissistic entitlement is a robust, conceptually
meaningful predictor of unforgiveness.
In my Christian faith, this forgiveness is big! This is what I mean (from a previous post of mine) when I accuse my H as being hypocritical. As highlighted, my H holds on to all my transgressions and will bring them up years later. That is how he always has one up on me. I let go of things and therefore, can't remember what the heck he is talking about. He uses it to stick it to me, the famous, "see, I told you".
Just recently, we were talking about how little my H actually knows about me. You all know how they are so self-centered, self seeking, and leave little room for you to be you. A doctor friend of ours suggested the game "the Ungame". My H went out and bought it. So, he brings this up recently that "eight" (yes eight) years ago, he bought that game for us to get to know each other and three times (yes, 3) I rejected him. I questioned him....how did he remember exactly 8 yrs ago, how did he remember 3 times. I asked him the situation each time he came to me to play this game. the boys would've been 1 & 4.(that he didn't know :?) I had my hands full...how could I just sit down a play a game. Then I asked why we needed a game to get to know each other. Was this craziness or what??? I kept on repeating how amazed I was that he remembered something 8 years ago and how I turned him down three times. I was milking it! and he was squirming but very sure of himself.
This was an interesting article and is right on. This entitlement is hard to deal with. It was a huge discovery for me recently as it shed light on why my H does what he does and thinks like he thinks not to mention what happens when he drives and someone cuts him off or does something wrong. An "N" invented the horn on cars :lol: (and "the look" to go with it)
Thanks Michael!
-
I'll take a stab at rewording it.
A model is proposed which does not address the origin of Nism but explains what keeps the N process going. The N is in a constant desperate process of creating and maintaining a "self". (Perhaps this is because they didn't have enough affirmation or support as children). So as adults they constantly need to get affirmation and support from others. At the same time these others have been defined by the narcissist as inferior, and the N lacks the sensitivity to constructively draw the needed affirmation from others. This creates an explosive paradoxical situation in which the N needs others, but operates in a way which insures that their needs don't get met. When others don't meet their needs, the N retreats further into the "grandiose" self conception as a defense. And so they get more and more crazy, obnoxious and hard to take until the system falls apart.
-
I'll take a stab at rewording it.
A model is proposed which does not address the origin of Nism but explains what keeps the N process going. The N is in a constant desperate process of creating and maintaining a "self". (Perhaps this is because they didn't have enough affirmation or support as children). So as adults they constantly need to get affirmation and support from others. At the same time these others have been defined by the narcissist as inferior, and the N lacks the sensitivity to constructively draw the needed affirmation from others. This creates an explosive paradoxical situation in which the N needs others, but operates in a way which insures that their needs don't get met. When others don't meet their needs, the N retreats further into the "grandiose" self conception as a defense. And so they get more and more crazy, obnoxious and hard to take until the system falls apart.
in terms from the above paste about ..the system falls apart...
as all that is not consistent and only what is consistent is that which is according to the creators will
to consider the needs of others before one's own
all not consistent falls apart...
but that may take many lifetimes
and in the meantime it can temporarily strengthen a person in the world apparently thruout their whole life sometimes
and it fall apart for them after death perhaps as perhaps in psalm 73
but in the meantime back on earth and the havoc they started is maintained by evil entities
that gained power by way of the havoc the narcissist helped in breaking down others hopes...
of course if one were truly centered in the spirit their hopes could not be broken down
-
We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
SO NOW..HMMM.... IT SAYS ..CHRONIC GOAL OF OBTAINING CONTINUOUS EXTERNAL SELF-AFFIRMATION...i kind of wonder ifn i were to buy the article :) it might say an issue to help the narcissist is to see that they dont recognize fully the nature of their need for external self-affirmation and quite often to the contrary that they feel rather what they seek is not self affirmation as they assume a false sureness about their worth but rather what they think is disturbing is when others dont appreciate them for their great worth..welll duh , i guess tho that tho the pasted abstract pretty much says that when it speaks of the narcissists...grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept...now why are narcissists so insenstive ot others' concerns and view them as inferior to their own concerns...I THINK THIS MIGHT VARY... IN SOME CASES CAUSE THE ASSUME THAT THERE CONCERN FOR OTHERS IS WONDERFUL OR EXCEPTIONAL BUT DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT ANY CHALLENGE TO IT TRIGGERS IN THEM A FEAR OF BEING OVERWHELMED BY THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT AND RATHER THAN FACE THAT THEY BECOME SKILLED IN CHOOSING THOSE WHO THEY CAN MANIPUTLATE THRU THE OTHERS SELF DOUBT SO AS NOT HAVE TO FACE THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT ....i spoke of a variaiton PERHAPS SUCH AS WHAT THE NARCISSIST CAN DO ON THE LARGER SCALE OF LIFE IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WHAT OTHERS THINK IS NOT IMPORTANT AND COMES FROM BEING INFERIOR AND NOT ONLY INFERIOR BUT WOULD IMPEDE THE GREATER SCHEME OF THINGS AS THE NARCISSIST SEES IT AND THUS A PLAN OF BEST WAY TO HANDLE DAMAGE CONTROL IS CHOSEN WHERE PERHAPS ONE MUST HIDE THAT IS THEIR INTENTIONS TILL THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DISPOSE OF THEM.....the first type is more the nature of a narcissist and the later more the nature of a malignant narcissist or psychopath.......
-
We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
SO NOW..HMMM.... IT SAYS ..CHRONIC GOAL OF OBTAINING CONTINUOUS EXTERNAL SELF-AFFIRMATION...i kind of wonder ifn i were to buy the article :) it might say an issue to help the narcissist is to see that they dont recognize fully the nature of their need for external self-affirmation and quite often to the contrary that they feel rather what they seek is not self affirmation as they assume a false sureness about their worth but rather what they think is disturbing is when others dont appreciate them for their great worth..welll duh , i guess tho that tho the pasted abstract pretty much says that when it speaks of the narcissists...grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept...now why are narcissists so insenstive ot others' concerns and view them as inferior to their own concerns...I THINK THIS MIGHT VARY... IN SOME CASES CAUSE THE ASSUME THAT THERE CONCERN FOR OTHERS IS WONDERFUL OR EXCEPTIONAL BUT DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT ANY CHALLENGE TO IT TRIGGERS IN THEM A FEAR OF BEING OVERWHELMED BY THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT AND RATHER THAN FACE THAT THEY BECOME SKILLED IN CHOOSING THOSE WHO THEY CAN MANIPUTLATE THRU THE OTHERS SELF DOUBT SO AS NOT HAVE TO FACE THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT ....i spoke of a variaiton PERHAPS SUCH AS WHAT THE NARCISSIST CAN DO ON THE LARGER SCALE OF LIFE IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WHAT OTHERS THINK IS NOT IMPORTANT AND COMES FROM BEING INFERIOR AND NOT ONLY INFERIOR BUT WOULD IMPEDE THE GREATER SCHEME OF THINGS AS THE NARCISSIST SEES IT AND THUS A PLAN OF BEST WAY TO HANDLE DAMAGE CONTROL IS CHOSEN WHERE PERHAPS ONE MUST HIDE THAT IS THEIR INTENTIONS TILL THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DISPOSE OF THEM.....the first type is more the nature of a narcissist and the later more the nature of a malignant narcissist or psychopath.......
HMMM THIS PUTS ME IN MIND OF WHAT I KIND OF RECALL AS 2 DIFFERENT CHILDHOOD EXPERINCES THAT BE ONES THAT CAN SPAWN NARCISSISTS..
THAT ARE KIND OF POLAR OPPOSITES..
one where they are expected to be the wonderful golden boy or girl and thus they fear losing their good standing by doubting that they
are not the golden boy or girl.. thus they evade issues of self doubt...
and then the polar opposite where the parents heap abuse and doubt of the goodness on the child
and as a means of survival and strength they bounce off the parents negative image they make of the child
by the child assuming that all efforts to cause them self doubt are efforts to destroy them
and that in fact they do have abiliities and powers that seem to gain recognition and success...
in both cases a kind of success drive by a kind of elimination self doubt is key here
i suspect the golden boy type tends more towards narcissism
and the latter towards malignant narcissism aka psychopathy
-
In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component. Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience.
After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions. She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way. She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."
I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N. The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out.
I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me. However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice. He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken. Why don't they feel embarrassed? It's like the Emperor's new clothes. He's naked for God's sake!"
I think it's pretty sad. Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it. I don't think that he talks to himself internally. Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?). Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay. I'm not wrong. She's wrong. I'm not wrong. She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong. I'm NOT wrong. I"M NOT WRONG! GRRRR!!!" But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong. Never. (smile)" It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.
In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity. Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes. We wants none of these mentioned. If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious.
What ends up happening feels very odd. I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault. But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss." I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N. But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me. Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it. So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome. I don't know what that horrible outcome could be. Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.
If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really appreciate more info on this.
-
In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component. Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience.
After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions. She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way. She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."
I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N. The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out.
I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me. However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice. He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken. Why don't they feel embarrassed? It's like the Emperor's new clothes. He's naked for God's sake!"
I think it's pretty sad. Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it. I don't think that he talks to himself internally. Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?). Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay. I'm not wrong. She's wrong. I'm not wrong. She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong. I'm NOT wrong. I"M NOT WRONG! GRRRR!!!" But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong. Never. (smile)" It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.
In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity. Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes. We wants none of these mentioned. If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious.
What ends up happening feels very odd. I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault. But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss." I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N. But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me. Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it. So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome. I don't know what that horrible outcome could be. Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.
If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really appreciate more info on this.
AN ASPECT THAT FOR ME CONNECTS THE THREADS OF ENVIRONMENT AND HEREDITY...IS REINCARNATION....THAT THUS ONE DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE OTHER ..U C?
-
I'll take a stab at rewording it.
A model is proposed which does not address the origin of Nism but explains what keeps the N process going. The N is in a constant desperate process of creating and maintaining a "self". (Perhaps this is because they didn't have enough affirmation or support as children). So as adults they constantly need to get affirmation and support from others. At the same time these others have been defined by the narcissist as inferior, and the N lacks the sensitivity to constructively draw the needed affirmation from others. This creates an explosive paradoxical situation in which the N needs others, but operates in a way which insures that their needs don't get met. When others don't meet their needs, the N retreats further into the "grandiose" self conception as a defense. And so they get more and more crazy, obnoxious and hard to take until the system falls apart.
DEAR JR MEMBER :),
A RATHER NICE REWORDING BUT A BETTER ONE IS MINE.... OOPS IS MY NARCISSISM SHOWING....JUST KIDDING :)
SINCERELY, A GUEST :)
-
IN TERMS OF HEREDITARY ASPECTS...
SOMEONE BY NAME OF BENIS PROPOSED 3 HERITARY TRAITS
TO EXPLAIN PERSONALITY TYPES..
NARCISSISTIC
PERFECTIONIST
AGGRESSIVE..
THUS THE NPA THEORY..
THEN A MISALOV GRUNDMANN SUGGESTED A FOURTH TRAIT..
WHICH HE CALLED T
This new trait may be linked to a non cooperative behavior and its strongest expression is present in 4,7 and 8 enneagram types. This trait is completely absent in 1,2 and 5 enneagram types.
WHAT HE IS REFFERING TO ENNEGRAM WISE IS A PERSONALITY TYPOLOGY SYSTEM
WHERE GENERALLY NARCISSISTS AND PSYCHOPATHS ARE TYPE 3 OF 9 TYPES...
THO BENIS THE ORIGINATOR OF NPA THEORY DOES NOT FEEL THAT GRUNDMANN THEORY
FITS IN WELL..
I THINK IT DOES AND IS WORTH CONSIDERING
THERE IS NOT MUCH ONLINE ON THE GRUNDMANN VERSION THAT I CAN FIND
BUT HERE IS A LINK TO IT
http://www.mip.ups-tlse.fr/~grundman/NPTA.html
ALL RIGHTY NOW FOR A SPECIFIC ASPECT THAT KIND OF INTRIGUES ME
IN TERMS OF SYMMETRY IN A SYSTEM AND WHAT DISTURBS SYMMETRY ..PART OF THE PATTERN THAT I WILL NOT GET INTO NOW BUT PART OF THE BREAK UP OF SYMMETRY INVOLVES I THINK HOW TYPE 3 ENDS UP AS THE ONLY ONE OF THE 9 TYPES HAVING ALL 4 TRAITS....
ANYWAYS MORE LATER ON THIS MAYBE
ONCE I COGITATE MORE ON HOW THIS MIGHT CONNECT TO THE SELF REGULATORY ISSUE
WHICH I KIND OF SUSPECT IT MIGHT
-
Confounded,
I almost lost your post in the middle of all the CAPS in Michael's extended posts. Can you repost in a new thread? I think your question is a good one and I suspect that others may have overlooked it as well.
CB