Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: hope on May 19, 2007, 08:45:38 PM
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I am not sure if my husband has something wrong with him, or if I do, or if I am the horrible person he discribes me to be. I feel like ONE of us is crazy. People who have spent substantial time around us in our home make comments about how he treats one of my sons and how insensitive or rude he is to me. However, they don't see the worst of it. He says the most horrible things about me behind my back to people. He doesn't seem to have much positive to say about my oldest son either (age 6). Even when I inform him of something great that our son accomplished, he seems to struggle just to get the words..."good". or "really, hmmm". He repeats how he wants our marriage to be "fixed" but "has no idea how to do that. He claims he has "tried every" but, he hasn't even done the simpliest things (like saying goodbye when leaving in the morning, saying hello when arriving home, etc. I could give many examples of what I feel is emotional cruelity, but that probably isn't neccessary.
I was just wondering if there is something that will give me an idea of whether or not he has a problem. Whether that problem is "treatable", whether I should "stick it out" and support him in his treatment if he does find out that he needs it or what? I am confused. I can say, when he is not around for while, it feels like I have "walked out of the darkness" and my children begin to behave much better (to the point that friends, family and teachers and church members start complimenting me on the "drastic" behavior change.
I would appreciate any comments.
Thanks
Hope
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Thank you Ami. Tears of relief just uncontrollably ran down my face. To think that someone understands, feels like I have been given some validation. My husband is very intelligent. He has most people (our friends...or I should say...his friends, my former friends) believing that I am a nut. One person even went as far as to tell him that I was probably boardline personality disorder or a closet alcholic. None of which is even remotely true. I am not a drinker, I have an ocassional glass of wine or two every other month or so. And I have had a pchsycologist (whom I went to because my husband had me thinking "I" was mentally unstable. I have been told that I am not, that I have the typical symptoms of a victum of domestic violence) verify that I do not have any tye of personality disorder certainly not BPD.
I still struggle about what to do. But, will take your advice, thank you.
Hope
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Hiya Hope
Welcome
Read all the post and everything you can on Narcissist. Have you seen a therapist together with your husband? That may be a great start for you. If your H does not want to go then go for yourself.
Your not crazy Hope. Your feelings are real and not unlike many of ours here on this board. One of the things that happened to us all is we became confused to what was really going on until we questioned and felt just like you are feeling now.
You will find lots of support on here. Talk away,ask, suggest, Rant anything you want to say feel comfortable to say it.
We are listening and supporting.
Love
Deb
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Welcome, Hope...
I am so sorry that your marriage has been so awful for you.
I am hoping, truly, that you willl find the strength to take your life back.
It does not belong to him. It is not his to ruin.
Glad you're here.
Hops
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Deb,
I have been going to a pychologist for months. My husband would not go. I start taking my son because of behavior problems. I wanted to take him a year earlier but my husband was against it. I finally started taking him anyway. That was feb a year ago.
My husband has been ordered to go to "counseling", however, it is at some free clinic thing and I would think a dr. with a great reputation would be more helpful. My husband IS emotionally abusive. i am not sure why, but I would like to know whether it is deliberate or not; whether it is "fixable" or not. Or whether in order to "save" my self and my kids, I need to plan my own life and forget about him. I feel sorry for him a lot, yet he is horribly cruel to me. There are reasons people act the way they do. If his is that he is a mean spirited person, then I need to run. Intuitively, I believe that there is something wrong and that he is torn up inside. I think he doesn't want anyone to know. So, he says those horrible things about me so that he looks "pale in comparison". On the other hand, while I may be willing to put up with a lot as far as his actions towards me. I can not deal with the way he treats my son. It is so sad to watch his little face when his father says some mean hateful thing to him.
Anyway, thank you.
Thanks to Hops also
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hi hope ..a newbie...
here is some stuff about narcissists that i think might be helpful
first some new theory that i have started a thread of post on here.....
proposed new theory on understanding narcissists
« on: May 16, 2007, 06:51:24 AM »
We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus
I AM NOT ONE OF THE WE in the WE PROPOSE:)
some other stuff is at this url link
http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/3420/3420lect04.htm
here is some of what is said there on narcissism
Narcissism is a less severe form of psychopathic disorder. It manifests aggressive, paranoid, and borderline characteristics, but more commonly appears in the form of envy, greed, power lust, an extensively rationalized sense of entitlement, and a pathological grandiose self. Unlike psychopaths, narcissists can experience loyalty and guilt; but like psychopaths, narcissists lack empathy or caring for others, viewing people as "playthings" to be used. Female narcissists tend to be the kind that "sleep" their way to the top; male narcissists tend to get ahead by becoming involved in massive power struggles. Psychologists suspect that the cause of narcissism is severe mental or physical pain in childhood at the hands of a powerful, idealized mother-father figure. Inconsistent parental attitudes on aggression and self-assertion as well as childhood experiences of being valued for specific, precocious talents seem to be the prime determinants. They never learned who to identify with -- the aggressor or victim, and they developed a pragmatic philosophy of siding with winners, regardless of who was in the right or wrong. In fact, they believe that the "good" is usually changeable and fickle while "bad" is stable and predictable. They live life by idealizing those who satisfy their narcissistic needs and systematically devaluing and denigrating those who do not. Underneath their superficial charm, they feel they have a right to control, manipulate, exploit, and be cruel to others.
Narcissism is a relative newcomer to the list of mental disorders. It was not fully defined until the late 80s. There's not much research proving narcissists are more prone to violence than any other group, and no one has a clue as to how widespread this particular personality disorder is - estimates range between 3 and 15% of the population, with 5-7% being a fair estimate. Being a narcissist is close to being an alcoholic but MUCH more so. Alcoholism is impulsive behavior. Narcissists have this plus hundreds of other problems. Narcissists frequently have uncontrollable behaviors, like rage which is an outcome of their grandiosity. Narcissists can rarely be cured, but side effects, associated disorders (such as OCD), pathological lying, and the paranoiac dimensions CAN be modified.
A full-blown narcissistic disorder would be inconsistent with sustainable leadership, so effective leaders can only be expected to have a touch or hint of it. Some of the more "minor" psychological characteristics associated with a touch of narcissism include the mechanisms of externalization and splitting. Externalization is reliance on finding an outside enemy to blame; e.g., "It's not us; it's them....They are the cause of our problems." Splitting is the process that a damaged self-concept engages in when they are particularly ashamed of something in their background; e.g., coming from a broken home, having had a good deal go wrong in their lives. A personality who engages in splitting tends to see other people as all good or as all bad. Such individuals will have a hard time exiting the groups they join, and likewise, in ever forgiving their enemies.
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>>A personality who engages in splitting tends to see other people as all good or as all bad. <<<<
So does a person with N disorder view all things all the time through this good or bad view? or is it only sometimes they see it like that, I guess what I am wondering is if it is episodic or constantly seeing it like that ?
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Hope,
Welcome here, glad you are seeing someone. Keep posting and reading...... there is a wealth of knowledge here.
axa
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>>A personality who engages in splitting tends to see other people as all good or as all bad. <<<<
So does a person with N disorder view all things all the time through this good or bad view? or is it only sometimes they see it like that, I guess what I am wondering is if it is episodic or constantly seeing it like that ?
the splitting of good or bad that a borderline does i think could be one of the prime distinctions from the way a narcissist does it...
the narcissist has a better organized agenda for doing the splitting
the borderline is more impulsive and volatile
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Hope,
I'm so sorry you and your children are going through this. It's hard and very very confusing. It's good you and your son are going for therapy.
As far as your husband maybe having traits or being a Narcissist? I don't know? Have you spoken to your therapist or has he said anything about it? To me it sounds very much so like he could possibly be.
Are they fixable? Personally I would say no. My T tended to think they can get better (but) think about how many years they have been this way is about how many years it would take for them to get better (if they could or would even want to). I would not invest anymore time then I already had (I was drained and starved of emotion) I ran. One thing I can tell you is (you) cannot fix them. You will get broken in the long run so will your children. Save yourself and your kids and yes if you are not ready to leave him still have a plan if and when you decide to do so, if you do. There is nothing wrong with that or thinking that way. Your a protector of your children. Thank God for you.
I had found this list on another web site and posted it before. It is done very simply.
Does anything on here sound like what your H does?
20 Traits of Malignant Narcissism
1. THE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR is skillfully deceptive and very convincing. Avoids accountability by diverting topics, dodging questions, and making up new lies, bluffs or threats when questioned. His memory is self serving as he denies past statements. Constant chaos and diverting from reality is their chosen environment.
Defense Strategy: Verify his words. Do not reveal anything about yourself - he'll use it against you. Head for the door when things don't add up. Don't ask him questions - you'll only be inviting more lies.
2. THE CONTRACT BREAKER agrees to anything then turns around and does the opposite. Marriage, Legal, Custody agreements, normal social/personal protocol are meaningless. This con artist will accuse you of being the contract breaker. Enjoys orchestrating legal action and playing the role of the 'poor me' victim.
Defense Strategy: Expect him to disregard any agreement. Have Plan B in place. Protect yourself financially and emotionally.
3. THE HIGH ROLLER Successfully plows and backstabs his way to the top. His family a disposable prop in his success facade. Is charismatic, eloquent and intelligent in his field, but often fakes abilities and credentials. Needs to have iron-fisted control, relying on his manipulation skills. Will ruthlessly support, exploit or target others in pursuit of his ever-changing agenda. Mercilessly abuses the power of his position. Uses treachery or terrorism to rule or govern. Potential problem or failure situations are delegated to others. A vindictive bully in the office with no social or personal conscience. Often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further their own Mephistophelian objectives, but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the bag. Disappears quickly when consequences loom.
Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date. Don't get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of retaliation. Be on the lookout and spot them running for office and vote them out. Educate yourself about corporate bullies
4. THE SEXUAL NARCISSIST is often hypersexual (male or female). Pornography, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets. Anything, anyone, young, old, male/female, are there for his gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a preference for 'sado-maso' sexuality. Often easily bored, he demands increasingly deviant stimulation. However, another behaviour exists, the one who withholds sex or emotional support.
Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you. Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to evade exposure of his own.
5. THE BLAME-GAME NARCISSIST never accepts responsibility. Blames others for his failures and circumstances. A master at projection.
Defense Strategy: Learn about projection. Don't take the bait when he blames you. He made the mess let him clean it up.
6. THE VIOLENT NARCISSIST is a wife-Beater, Murderer, Serial Killer, Stalker, Terrorist. Has a 'chip-on-his-shoulder' attitude. He lashes out and destroys or uses others (particularly women and children) as scapegoats for his aggression or revenge. He has poor impulse control. Fearless and guiltless, he shows bad judgement. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or punishment, imagines rejection and will reject first to 'get it over with'. He will harass and push to make you pay attention to him and get a reaction. He will try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. Has no remorse or regard for the rights of others.
Defense Strategy: Don't antagonize or tip your hand you're leaving. Ask for help from the police and shelters.
7. THE CONTROLLER/MANIPULATOR pits people against each other. Keeps his allies and targets separated. Is verbally skillful at twisting words and actions. Is charismatic and usually gets his way. Often undermines our support network and discourages us from seeing our family and friends. Money is often his objective. Other people's money is even better. He is ruthless, demanding and cruel. This control-freak bully wants you pregnant, isolated and financially dependent on him. Appears pitiful, confused and in need of help. We rush in to help him with our finances, assets, and talents. We may be used as his proxy interacting with others on his behalf as he sets us up to take the fall or enjoys the performance he is directing.
Defense Strategy: Know the 'nature of the beast'. Facing his failure and consequences will be his best lesson. Be suspicious of his motives, and avoid involvement. Don't bail him out.
8. THE SUBSTANCE ABUSER Alcohol, drugs, you name it, this N does it. We see his over-indulgence in food, exercise or sex and his need for instant gratification. Will want you to do likewise.
Defense Strategy: Don't sink to his level. Say No.
9. OUR "SOUL MATE" is cunning and knows who to select and who to avoid. He will come on strong, sweep us off our feet. He seems to have the same values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes, habits. He admires our intellect, ambition, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. He fakes integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts. Eventually Jekyll turns into Hyde. His discarded victims suffer emotional and financial devastation. He will very much enjoy the double-dipping attention he gets by cheating. We end the relationship and salvage what we can, or we are discarded quickly as he attaches to a "new perfect soul mate". He is an opportunistic parasite. Our "Knight in Shining Armor" has become our nightmare. Our healing is lengthy.
Defense Strategy: Seek therapy. Learn about this disorder. Know the red flags of their behaviour, and "If he seems too good to be true..." Hide the hurt you feel. Never let him see it. Be watchful for the internet predator.
10. THE QUIET NARCISSIST is socially withdrawn, often dirty, unkempt. Odd thinking is observed. Used as a disguise to appear pitiful to obtain whatever he can,
11. THE SADIST is now the fully-unmasked malignant narcissist. His objective is watching us dangle as he inflicts emotional, financial, physical and verbal cruelty. His enjoyment is all too obvious. He'll be back for more. His pleasure is in getting away with taking other people's assets. His target: women, children, the elderly, anyone vulnerabie.
Defense Strategy: Accept the Jekyll/Hyde reality. Make a "No Contact' rule. Avoid him altogether. End any avenue of vulnerability. Don't allow thoughts of his past 'good guy' image to lessen the reality of his disorder.
12. THE RAGER flies off the handle for little or no provocation. Has a severely disproportionate overreaction. Childish tantrums. His rage can be intimidating. He wants control, attention and compliance. In our hurt and confusion we struggle to make things right. Any reaction is his payoff. He seeks both good or bad attention. Even our fear, crying, yelling, screaming, name calling, hatred are his objectives. If he can get attention by cruelty he will do so.
Defense Strategy: Manage your responses. Be fully independent. Don't take the bait of his verbal abuse. Expect emotional hurt. Volence is possible.
13. THE BRAINWASHER is very charismatic. He is able to manipulate others to obtain status, control, compliance, money, attention. Often found in religion and politics. He masterfully targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak.
Defense Strategy. Learn about brainwashing techniques. Listen to your gut instinct. Avoid them.
14. THE RISK-TAKING THRILL-SEEKER never learns from his past follies and bad judgment. Poor impulse control is a hallmark.
Defense Strategy: Don't get involved. Use your own good judgement. Say No.
15. THE PARANOID NARCISSIST is suspicious of everything usually for no reason. Terrified of exposure and may be dangerous if threatened. Suddenly ends relationships if he anticipates exposure or abandonment.
Defense Strategy: Give him no reason to be suspicious of you. Let some things slide. Protect yourself if you anticipate violence.
16. THE IMAGE MAKER will flaunt his 'toys', his children, his wife, his credentials and accomplishments. Admiration, attention, even glances from others, our envy or our fear are his objective. He is never satisfied. We see his arrogance and haughty strut as he demands center stage. He will alter his mask at will to appear pitiful, inept, solicitous, concerned, or haughty and superior. Appears the the perfect father, husband, friend - to those outside his home.
Defense Strategy: Ignore his childlike behaviours. Know his payoff is getting attention, deceiving or abusing others. Provide him with 'supply' to avert problems.
17. THE EMOTIONAL VACUUM is the cruellest blow of all. We learn his lack of empathy. He has deceived us by his cunning ability to mimic human emotions. We are left numbed by the realization. It is incomprehensible and painful. We now remember times we saw his cold vacant eyes and when he showed odd reactions. Those closest to him become objectified and expendable.
Defense Strategy: Face the reality. They can deceive trained professionals.
18. THE SAINTLY NARCISSIST proclaims high moral standing. Accuses others of immorality. "Hang 'em high" he says about the murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite lies, cheats, schemes, corrupts, abuses, deceives, controls, manipulates and torments while portraying himself of high morals.
Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour. Be suspicious of people claiming high morals. Can be spotted at a church near you.
19. THE CALLING-CARD NARCISSIST forewarns his targets. Early in the relationship he may 'slip up' revealing his nature saying "You need to protect yourself around me" or "Watch out, you never know what I'm up to." We laugh along with him and misinterpret his words. Years later, coping with the devastation left behind, his victims recall the chilling warning.
Defense Strategy: Know the red flags and be suspicious of the intentions of others.
20. THE PENITENT NARCISSIST says "I've behaved horribly, I'll change, I love you, I'll go for therapy." Appears to 'come clean' admitting past abuse and asking forgiveness. Claims we are at fault and need to change too. The sincerity of his words and actions appear convincing. We learn his words are verbal hooks. He knows our vulnerabilities and what buttons to push. We question our judgement about his disorder. We can disregard "Fool me once..." We hope for change and minimize past abuse. With a successful retargeting attempt, this N will enjoy his second reign of terror even more if we allow him back in our lives.
Defense Strategy: Expect this. Self-impose a "No Contact" rule. Focus on the reality of his disorder. Journal past abusive behavior to remind yourself. Join a support group
Love
Deb
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Hope,
I'm so sorry you and your children are going through this. It's hard and very very confusing. It's good you and your son are going for therapy.
As far as your husband maybe having traits or being a Narcissist? I don't know? Have you spoken to your therapist or has he said anything about it? To me it sounds very much so like he could possibly be.
Are they fixable? Personally I would say no. My T tended to think they can get better (but) think about how many years they have been this way is about how many years it would take for them to get better (if they could or would even want to). I would not invest anymore time then I already had (I was drained and starved of emotion) I ran. One thing I can tell you is (you) cannot fix them. You will get broken in the long run so will your children. Save yourself and your kids and yes if you are not ready to leave him still have a plan if and when you decide to do so, if you do. There is nothing wrong with that or thinking that way. Your a protector of your children. Thank God for you.
I had found this list on another web site and posted it before. It is done very simply.
Does anything on here sound like what your H does?
20 Traits of Malignant Narcissism
1. THE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR is skillfully deceptive and very convincing. Avoids accountability by diverting topics, dodging questions, and making up new lies, bluffs or threats when questioned. His memory is self serving as he denies past statements. Constant chaos and diverting from reality is their chosen environment.
Defense Strategy: Verify his words. Do not reveal anything about yourself - he'll use it against you. Head for the door when things don't add up. Don't ask him questions - you'll only be inviting more lies.
2. THE CONTRACT BREAKER agrees to anything then turns around and does the opposite. Marriage, Legal, Custody agreements, normal social/personal protocol are meaningless. This con artist will accuse you of being the contract breaker. Enjoys orchestrating legal action and playing the role of the 'poor me' victim.
Defense Strategy: Expect him to disregard any agreement. Have Plan B in place. Protect yourself financially and emotionally.
3. THE HIGH ROLLER Successfully plows and backstabs his way to the top. His family a disposable prop in his success facade. Is charismatic, eloquent and intelligent in his field, but often fakes abilities and credentials. Needs to have iron-fisted control, relying on his manipulation skills. Will ruthlessly support, exploit or target others in pursuit of his ever-changing agenda. Mercilessly abuses the power of his position. Uses treachery or terrorism to rule or govern. Potential problem or failure situations are delegated to others. A vindictive bully in the office with no social or personal conscience. Often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further their own Mephistophelian objectives, but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the bag. Disappears quickly when consequences loom.
Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date. Don't get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of retaliation. Be on the lookout and spot them running for office and vote them out. Educate yourself about corporate bullies
4. THE SEXUAL NARCISSIST is often hypersexual (male or female). Pornography, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets. Anything, anyone, young, old, male/female, are there for his gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a preference for 'sado-maso' sexuality. Often easily bored, he demands increasingly deviant stimulation. However, another behaviour exists, the one who withholds sex or emotional support.
Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you. Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to evade exposure of his own.
5. THE BLAME-GAME NARCISSIST never accepts responsibility. Blames others for his failures and circumstances. A master at projection.
Defense Strategy: Learn about projection. Don't take the bait when he blames you. He made the mess let him clean it up.
6. THE VIOLENT NARCISSIST is a wife-Beater, Murderer, Serial Killer, Stalker, Terrorist. Has a 'chip-on-his-shoulder' attitude. He lashes out and destroys or uses others (particularly women and children) as scapegoats for his aggression or revenge. He has poor impulse control. Fearless and guiltless, he shows bad judgement. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or punishment, imagines rejection and will reject first to 'get it over with'. He will harass and push to make you pay attention to him and get a reaction. He will try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. Has no remorse or regard for the rights of others.
Defense Strategy: Don't antagonize or tip your hand you're leaving. Ask for help from the police and shelters.
7. THE CONTROLLER/MANIPULATOR pits people against each other. Keeps his allies and targets separated. Is verbally skillful at twisting words and actions. Is charismatic and usually gets his way. Often undermines our support network and discourages us from seeing our family and friends. Money is often his objective. Other people's money is even better. He is ruthless, demanding and cruel. This control-freak bully wants you pregnant, isolated and financially dependent on him. Appears pitiful, confused and in need of help. We rush in to help him with our finances, assets, and talents. We may be used as his proxy interacting with others on his behalf as he sets us up to take the fall or enjoys the performance he is directing.
Defense Strategy: Know the 'nature of the beast'. Facing his failure and consequences will be his best lesson. Be suspicious of his motives, and avoid involvement. Don't bail him out.
8. THE SUBSTANCE ABUSER Alcohol, drugs, you name it, this N does it. We see his over-indulgence in food, exercise or sex and his need for instant gratification. Will want you to do likewise.
Defense Strategy: Don't sink to his level. Say No.
9. OUR "SOUL MATE" is cunning and knows who to select and who to avoid. He will come on strong, sweep us off our feet. He seems to have the same values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes, habits. He admires our intellect, ambition, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. He fakes integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts. Eventually Jekyll turns into Hyde. His discarded victims suffer emotional and financial devastation. He will very much enjoy the double-dipping attention he gets by cheating. We end the relationship and salvage what we can, or we are discarded quickly as he attaches to a "new perfect soul mate". He is an opportunistic parasite. Our "Knight in Shining Armor" has become our nightmare. Our healing is lengthy.
Defense Strategy: Seek therapy. Learn about this disorder. Know the red flags of their behaviour, and "If he seems too good to be true..." Hide the hurt you feel. Never let him see it. Be watchful for the internet predator.
10. THE QUIET NARCISSIST is socially withdrawn, often dirty, unkempt. Odd thinking is observed. Used as a disguise to appear pitiful to obtain whatever he can,
11. THE SADIST is now the fully-unmasked malignant narcissist. His objective is watching us dangle as he inflicts emotional, financial, physical and verbal cruelty. His enjoyment is all too obvious. He'll be back for more. His pleasure is in getting away with taking other people's assets. His target: women, children, the elderly, anyone vulnerabie.
Defense Strategy: Accept the Jekyll/Hyde reality. Make a "No Contact' rule. Avoid him altogether. End any avenue of vulnerability. Don't allow thoughts of his past 'good guy' image to lessen the reality of his disorder.
12. THE RAGER flies off the handle for little or no provocation. Has a severely disproportionate overreaction. Childish tantrums. His rage can be intimidating. He wants control, attention and compliance. In our hurt and confusion we struggle to make things right. Any reaction is his payoff. He seeks both good or bad attention. Even our fear, crying, yelling, screaming, name calling, hatred are his objectives. If he can get attention by cruelty he will do so.
Defense Strategy: Manage your responses. Be fully independent. Don't take the bait of his verbal abuse. Expect emotional hurt. Volence is possible.
13. THE BRAINWASHER is very charismatic. He is able to manipulate others to obtain status, control, compliance, money, attention. Often found in religion and politics. He masterfully targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak.
Defense Strategy. Learn about brainwashing techniques. Listen to your gut instinct. Avoid them.
14. THE RISK-TAKING THRILL-SEEKER never learns from his past follies and bad judgment. Poor impulse control is a hallmark.
Defense Strategy: Don't get involved. Use your own good judgement. Say No.
15. THE PARANOID NARCISSIST is suspicious of everything usually for no reason. Terrified of exposure and may be dangerous if threatened. Suddenly ends relationships if he anticipates exposure or abandonment.
Defense Strategy: Give him no reason to be suspicious of you. Let some things slide. Protect yourself if you anticipate violence.
16. THE IMAGE MAKER will flaunt his 'toys', his children, his wife, his credentials and accomplishments. Admiration, attention, even glances from others, our envy or our fear are his objective. He is never satisfied. We see his arrogance and haughty strut as he demands center stage. He will alter his mask at will to appear pitiful, inept, solicitous, concerned, or haughty and superior. Appears the the perfect father, husband, friend - to those outside his home.
Defense Strategy: Ignore his childlike behaviours. Know his payoff is getting attention, deceiving or abusing others. Provide him with 'supply' to avert problems.
17. THE EMOTIONAL VACUUM is the cruellest blow of all. We learn his lack of empathy. He has deceived us by his cunning ability to mimic human emotions. We are left numbed by the realization. It is incomprehensible and painful. We now remember times we saw his cold vacant eyes and when he showed odd reactions. Those closest to him become objectified and expendable.
Defense Strategy: Face the reality. They can deceive trained professionals.
18. THE SAINTLY NARCISSIST proclaims high moral standing. Accuses others of immorality. "Hang 'em high" he says about the murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite lies, cheats, schemes, corrupts, abuses, deceives, controls, manipulates and torments while portraying himself of high morals.
Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour. Be suspicious of people claiming high morals. Can be spotted at a church near you.
19. THE CALLING-CARD NARCISSIST forewarns his targets. Early in the relationship he may 'slip up' revealing his nature saying "You need to protect yourself around me" or "Watch out, you never know what I'm up to." We laugh along with him and misinterpret his words. Years later, coping with the devastation left behind, his victims recall the chilling warning.
Defense Strategy: Know the red flags and be suspicious of the intentions of others.
20. THE PENITENT NARCISSIST says "I've behaved horribly, I'll change, I love you, I'll go for therapy." Appears to 'come clean' admitting past abuse and asking forgiveness. Claims we are at fault and need to change too. The sincerity of his words and actions appear convincing. We learn his words are verbal hooks. He knows our vulnerabilities and what buttons to push. We question our judgement about his disorder. We can disregard "Fool me once..." We hope for change and minimize past abuse. With a successful retargeting attempt, this N will enjoy his second reign of terror even more if we allow him back in our lives.
Defense Strategy: Expect this. Self-impose a "No Contact" rule. Focus on the reality of his disorder. Journal past abusive behavior to remind yourself. Join a support group
Love
Deb
INTERESTING TYPES OF PERSONALITY DISORDERS AND WARNINGS AND ADVICE
BUT I AM NOT SO SURE TECHNICALLY THEY ARE ALL NARCISSISTS OR PSYCHOPATHS
BUT WITH SOME TRAITS THEREOF AND PROBABLY MANY FIT BETTER UNDER OTHER TYPES OF DISORDERS
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Hope,
I'm so sorry you and your children are going through this. It's hard and very very confusing. It's good you and your son are going for therapy.
As far as your husband maybe having traits or being a Narcissist? I don't know? Have you spoken to your therapist or has he said anything about it? To me it sounds very much so like he could possibly be.
Are they fixable? Personally I would say no. My T tended to think they can get better (but) think about how many years they have been this way is about how many years it would take for them to get better (if they could or would even want to). I would not invest anymore time then I already had (I was drained and starved of emotion) I ran. One thing I can tell you is (you) cannot fix them. You will get broken in the long run so will your children. Save yourself and your kids and yes if you are not ready to leave him still have a plan if and when you decide to do so, if you do. There is nothing wrong with that or thinking that way. Your a protector of your children. Thank God for you.
I had found this list on another web site and posted it before. It is done very simply.
Does anything on here sound like what your H does?
20 Traits of Malignant Narcissism
1. THE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR is skillfully deceptive and very convincing. Avoids accountability by diverting topics, dodging questions, and making up new lies, bluffs or threats when questioned. His memory is self serving as he denies past statements. Constant chaos and diverting from reality is their chosen environment.
Defense Strategy: Verify his words. Do not reveal anything about yourself - he'll use it against you. Head for the door when things don't add up. Don't ask him questions - you'll only be inviting more lies.
2. THE CONTRACT BREAKER agrees to anything then turns around and does the opposite. Marriage, Legal, Custody agreements, normal social/personal protocol are meaningless. This con artist will accuse you of being the contract breaker. Enjoys orchestrating legal action and playing the role of the 'poor me' victim.
Defense Strategy: Expect him to disregard any agreement. Have Plan B in place. Protect yourself financially and emotionally.
3. THE HIGH ROLLER Successfully plows and backstabs his way to the top. His family a disposable prop in his success facade. Is charismatic, eloquent and intelligent in his field, but often fakes abilities and credentials. Needs to have iron-fisted control, relying on his manipulation skills. Will ruthlessly support, exploit or target others in pursuit of his ever-changing agenda. Mercilessly abuses the power of his position. Uses treachery or terrorism to rule or govern. Potential problem or failure situations are delegated to others. A vindictive bully in the office with no social or personal conscience. Often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further their own Mephistophelian objectives, but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the bag. Disappears quickly when consequences loom.
Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date. Don't get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of retaliation. Be on the lookout and spot them running for office and vote them out. Educate yourself about corporate bullies
4. THE SEXUAL NARCISSIST is often hypersexual (male or female). Pornography, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets. Anything, anyone, young, old, male/female, are there for his gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a preference for 'sado-maso' sexuality. Often easily bored, he demands increasingly deviant stimulation. However, another behaviour exists, the one who withholds sex or emotional support.
Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you. Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to evade exposure of his own.
5. THE BLAME-GAME NARCISSIST never accepts responsibility. Blames others for his failures and circumstances. A master at projection.
Defense Strategy: Learn about projection. Don't take the bait when he blames you. He made the mess let him clean it up.
6. THE VIOLENT NARCISSIST is a wife-Beater, Murderer, Serial Killer, Stalker, Terrorist. Has a 'chip-on-his-shoulder' attitude. He lashes out and destroys or uses others (particularly women and children) as scapegoats for his aggression or revenge. He has poor impulse control. Fearless and guiltless, he shows bad judgement. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or punishment, imagines rejection and will reject first to 'get it over with'. He will harass and push to make you pay attention to him and get a reaction. He will try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. Has no remorse or regard for the rights of others.
Defense Strategy: Don't antagonize or tip your hand you're leaving. Ask for help from the police and shelters.
7. THE CONTROLLER/MANIPULATOR pits people against each other. Keeps his allies and targets separated. Is verbally skillful at twisting words and actions. Is charismatic and usually gets his way. Often undermines our support network and discourages us from seeing our family and friends. Money is often his objective. Other people's money is even better. He is ruthless, demanding and cruel. This control-freak bully wants you pregnant, isolated and financially dependent on him. Appears pitiful, confused and in need of help. We rush in to help him with our finances, assets, and talents. We may be used as his proxy interacting with others on his behalf as he sets us up to take the fall or enjoys the performance he is directing.
Defense Strategy: Know the 'nature of the beast'. Facing his failure and consequences will be his best lesson. Be suspicious of his motives, and avoid involvement. Don't bail him out.
8. THE SUBSTANCE ABUSER Alcohol, drugs, you name it, this N does it. We see his over-indulgence in food, exercise or sex and his need for instant gratification. Will want you to do likewise.
Defense Strategy: Don't sink to his level. Say No.
9. OUR "SOUL MATE" is cunning and knows who to select and who to avoid. He will come on strong, sweep us off our feet. He seems to have the same values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes, habits. He admires our intellect, ambition, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. He fakes integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts. Eventually Jekyll turns into Hyde. His discarded victims suffer emotional and financial devastation. He will very much enjoy the double-dipping attention he gets by cheating. We end the relationship and salvage what we can, or we are discarded quickly as he attaches to a "new perfect soul mate". He is an opportunistic parasite. Our "Knight in Shining Armor" has become our nightmare. Our healing is lengthy.
Defense Strategy: Seek therapy. Learn about this disorder. Know the red flags of their behaviour, and "If he seems too good to be true..." Hide the hurt you feel. Never let him see it. Be watchful for the internet predator.
10. THE QUIET NARCISSIST is socially withdrawn, often dirty, unkempt. Odd thinking is observed. Used as a disguise to appear pitiful to obtain whatever he can,
11. THE SADIST is now the fully-unmasked malignant narcissist. His objective is watching us dangle as he inflicts emotional, financial, physical and verbal cruelty. His enjoyment is all too obvious. He'll be back for more. His pleasure is in getting away with taking other people's assets. His target: women, children, the elderly, anyone vulnerabie.
Defense Strategy: Accept the Jekyll/Hyde reality. Make a "No Contact' rule. Avoid him altogether. End any avenue of vulnerability. Don't allow thoughts of his past 'good guy' image to lessen the reality of his disorder.
12. THE RAGER flies off the handle for little or no provocation. Has a severely disproportionate overreaction. Childish tantrums. His rage can be intimidating. He wants control, attention and compliance. In our hurt and confusion we struggle to make things right. Any reaction is his payoff. He seeks both good or bad attention. Even our fear, crying, yelling, screaming, name calling, hatred are his objectives. If he can get attention by cruelty he will do so.
Defense Strategy: Manage your responses. Be fully independent. Don't take the bait of his verbal abuse. Expect emotional hurt. Volence is possible.
13. THE BRAINWASHER is very charismatic. He is able to manipulate others to obtain status, control, compliance, money, attention. Often found in religion and politics. He masterfully targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak.
Defense Strategy. Learn about brainwashing techniques. Listen to your gut instinct. Avoid them.
14. THE RISK-TAKING THRILL-SEEKER never learns from his past follies and bad judgment. Poor impulse control is a hallmark.
Defense Strategy: Don't get involved. Use your own good judgement. Say No.
15. THE PARANOID NARCISSIST is suspicious of everything usually for no reason. Terrified of exposure and may be dangerous if threatened. Suddenly ends relationships if he anticipates exposure or abandonment.
Defense Strategy: Give him no reason to be suspicious of you. Let some things slide. Protect yourself if you anticipate violence.
16. THE IMAGE MAKER will flaunt his 'toys', his children, his wife, his credentials and accomplishments. Admiration, attention, even glances from others, our envy or our fear are his objective. He is never satisfied. We see his arrogance and haughty strut as he demands center stage. He will alter his mask at will to appear pitiful, inept, solicitous, concerned, or haughty and superior. Appears the the perfect father, husband, friend - to those outside his home.
Defense Strategy: Ignore his childlike behaviours. Know his payoff is getting attention, deceiving or abusing others. Provide him with 'supply' to avert problems.
17. THE EMOTIONAL VACUUM is the cruellest blow of all. We learn his lack of empathy. He has deceived us by his cunning ability to mimic human emotions. We are left numbed by the realization. It is incomprehensible and painful. We now remember times we saw his cold vacant eyes and when he showed odd reactions. Those closest to him become objectified and expendable.
Defense Strategy: Face the reality. They can deceive trained professionals.
18. THE SAINTLY NARCISSIST proclaims high moral standing. Accuses others of immorality. "Hang 'em high" he says about the murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite lies, cheats, schemes, corrupts, abuses, deceives, controls, manipulates and torments while portraying himself of high morals.
Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour. Be suspicious of people claiming high morals. Can be spotted at a church near you.
19. THE CALLING-CARD NARCISSIST forewarns his targets. Early in the relationship he may 'slip up' revealing his nature saying "You need to protect yourself around me" or "Watch out, you never know what I'm up to." We laugh along with him and misinterpret his words. Years later, coping with the devastation left behind, his victims recall the chilling warning.
Defense Strategy: Know the red flags and be suspicious of the intentions of others.
20. THE PENITENT NARCISSIST says "I've behaved horribly, I'll change, I love you, I'll go for therapy." Appears to 'come clean' admitting past abuse and asking forgiveness. Claims we are at fault and need to change too. The sincerity of his words and actions appear convincing. We learn his words are verbal hooks. He knows our vulnerabilities and what buttons to push. We question our judgement about his disorder. We can disregard "Fool me once..." We hope for change and minimize past abuse. With a successful retargeting attempt, this N will enjoy his second reign of terror even more if we allow him back in our lives.
Defense Strategy: Expect this. Self-impose a "No Contact" rule. Focus on the reality of his disorder. Journal past abusive behavior to remind yourself. Join a support group
Love
Deb
WHAT MIGHT BE SAID IS THAT THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE AND ITS FALLEN NATURE HAS A CONNECTION WITH NARCISSISM
WHERE THE FAULTS OF SELF ARE DENIED OR EXCUSED OR NOT DEALT WITH AS FULLY AS THEY SHOULD BE...
for some it does not reach the degree of being a personality disorder...
but still there remains a self ambivalence about success and self doubt...
what makes the narcissist or psychopath is some aspects of their method of avoiding self doubt
and playing others self doubt that determines whether it is of that type of disorder
or better considered under another type of disorder
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Hope, hello.
You said
My husband IS emotionally abusive. i am not sure why, but I would like to know whether it is deliberate or not; whether it is "fixable" or not.
Whether it is fixable or not, only he can decide to address it. You can't do it for him, or to him. Like alcoholics - it has to come from them. It's not your job or responsibility to fix him Hope, it's your responsibility to look at that statement - he is emotionally abusive - and keep that in your mind. What would you advise a close friend to do, if they said that to you?
I can not deal with the way he treats my son. It is so sad to watch his little face when his father says some mean hateful thing to him.
Again, if a close friend said this, how would you feel?
Glad you posted Hope.
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Hi Hope! Welcome!! I also went to a T because I thought I needed to get fixed as I was making my H miserable with my dysfunction. I was also told it wasn't me. As it turns out, my H is an "N". He projects his dysfunction onto me. Everything is my fault. His dad never affirmed him. He needs affirmation from me...like you would do with a child. No matter how much I give him, it would never be enough. His need becomes my failure and dysfunction. His entitlements become my being rebelliousnous.
Hope, you are doing the right thing by trying to protect your son. He needs your love and protection. The people on this forum are wonderful friends! You will learn so much from them. So glad to have you here! :D
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How do know if someone is narsistic?
This ones pretty easy. Go down to your local psychiatric hospital supply store and go to the men's clothing section. They have these white suits with extra long sleeves that wrap around back and buckle in the front. Have it gift wrapped and give it to him after a nice romantic dinner.
Now if he's the typical man he'll put it on with great pleasure thinking you've got some weird bedroom game in mind.
If he's an N he'll jump up on the chandelier and start screaming that not only are you crazy the whole world is and he's the only sane person left.
mud
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Hey Mud, you got a picture of that?
:lol:
Hops
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you're right Portia,
I have this problem with feeling bad for people too easily. I just keep thinking that he must be tormented inside. However, I do not feel sorry enough for him to subject my children. He is not living with us right now. When he is here for a long period of time or visits daily for weeks, the stress in the air is overwhelming. The kids start to act up much more. Everything seems out of control, they no longer listen to me. He did not visit for 2 months and when he did, he noticed the difference in their behavoir and actually complimented me on their progress. However, after he visited daily for weeks, the behavior was back to where we started. Then once again, it was all my fault. Ican not control the kids. He even said that at the rate I was going with them, they be in and out of crack houses by the time they are teenagers AND that I will be driving all over knocking on every crack house door to find them! WHAT is wrong with a father that says that? Is THAT deliberate??? Or is he sick????
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Is THAT deliberate??? Or is he sick????
Both. They are not mutually exclusive.
mud
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One suggestion I have is to read the book "Trapped in the Miirror" Adult Children of Narcisticts. It is by a therapist who also suffered from this. I wish I could remember the name. My mom is a N, but she does not know it.
They are people that have to be pumped up by others ...expressed in different ways...because they have no self esteem themselves. It's a coverup.....but, yet it is a very frightening experience on the receiving end. They really are very fragile. It's like being held together by scotch tape. I know my mom is like that.....I worked through A LOT of anger...to be able to see things for what they are. I love my mom, but I know she is who she is and she is not going to change. Yet, on the other hand, I have seen her learn many remarkable things. Been able to come out on top to see things clearer. I am not 100%. I have trouble being in her company for too long as she constantly talks about herself, tries to be modest about some things on the pump up end, but I see right through it....I still love her though it spite of it.
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he hasn't even done the simplest things (like saying goodbye when leaving in the morning
OMG, Hope, you and I are having some of the same experiences, exactly.
I had to tell my H a couple of days ago that it's problematic for me if he goes to bed without saying goodnight (I have no idea what's going on and I assume he's still awake when he's not), and this morning I had to tell him that leaving without saying goodbye to the kids and me is also a problem. I tried to explain that saying goodnight or goodbye serve his own interests because they provide others with a chance to check with him or remind him of things (alarm clock times, things he needs to take with him in the car, etc.). He raged, insisting that he brings me the glass of water that I will later take to bed, while I am still at my desk, it's obvious he's going to bed. He can't ever be wrong. But later he will change the behavior. Sometimes. Grudgingly. This is what passes for progress here, and don't ever think that he will get to a point where he might say, "I didn't realize that wasn't obvious. Sorry. I'll just say "Goodnight." from now on. Admit that he might have been less than 100% sensitive. That is not going to happen. We used to argue about that stuff. No more. I don't bother.
I noted others here saying that their experience with N's was that they never say "please, thank you, or I'm sorry" Ditto here. Also true for you?
You mentioned that when he's gone out of town, you and your kids feel much better. Us too. I empathize completely.
he says those horrible things about me
Hope, I want to tell you that since these two men behave so similarly, I think that it is highly likely that the harsh things he says to you, about you, etc., are things that he doesn't even believe. That's one of the weird things about this kind of mind. They will say things that know are false, using them as red herrings, so that they can direct the discussion away from their own weird behavior.
You seem to be looking for clarity about the N aspect of this. When my H stopped going to our second counselor (we're now on our third), I went in without him and asked flat out, "What is this? This inability to ever admit that he might be wrong. What IS it?" The answer was short. "_____ has narcissistic tendencies." The T went on to tell me that his own father had NT, that many doctors have it, that he had no idea why H's first wife (deceased) put up with him, unless she needed a meal ticket, that N rage is very dangerous, and that N's can never change. I asked if he was telling me that I should leave. He advised me that he could not decide that for me. Then, at the end of the session, he told me we were finished, that I didn't need him any more. I objected, and said that I thought I might need help dealing with this. He said I could call him if I needed him. But that I should not tell H about the NT. Right then I knew it would come out, in an argument,. which it did. I get so frustrated at times, I act crazy, break things, call him 30 times at work to yell at him. I have been thinking about becoming either an alcoholic (like you, I hardly drink, but self-medication with alcohol holds promise - this is meant a tongue in cheek joke), or a shopaholic, or possibly a desperate housewife (I'm against cheating but I think just maybe I could be stolen away, if the right man tried it).
I relate most strongly to the following from the list. What resonated with you?
5. THE BLAME-GAME NARCISSIST never accepts responsibility. Blames others for his failures...
6. THE VIOLENT NARCISSIST is a wife-Beater... uses others as scapegoats for his aggression or revenge. He has poor impulse control. Fearless and guiltless, he shows bad judgement. He will harass and push to make you pay attention to him and get a reaction. He will try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. Has no remorse or regard for the rights of others.
9. OUR "SOUL MATE"... will come on strong, sweep us off our feet. He seems to have the same values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes, habits. He admires our intellect, ambition, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. He fakes integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts. Eventually Jekyll turns into Hyde. "Our Knight in Shining Armor" has become our nightmare.
10. THE QUIET NARCISSIST is socially withdrawn. Odd thinking is observed.
11. THE SADIST is now the fully-unmasked malignant narcissist. His objective is watching us dangle as he inflicts emotional, financial, physical and verbal cruelty.
12. THE RAGER flies off the handle for little or no provocation. Has a severely disproportionate overreaction. Childish tantrums. His rage can be intimidating. He wants control, attention and compliance. In our hurt and confusion we struggle to make things right. Any reaction is his payoff. He seeks both good or bad attention. Even our fear, crying, yelling, screaming, name calling, hatred are his objectives. If he can get attention by cruelty he will do so.
Hope, in spite of all the Hell, do you often have times that are quite wonderful? If so, have they become tainted with anticipation of the next blowup? Does it seem like the slate is never going to be clean? Like it will never end? Is it getting better, worse, staying the same?
My husband has been ordered to go to "counseling"
My husband was ordered to attend 18 weeks of Anger Management. You know what he got out of it? He learned that he's supposed to leave if he gets too angry, which happens when I behave badly. That's right.
But I keep thinking that things are getting better. He doesn't dare lay a hand on me. That's a very positive development. But only after I had the authorities intervene, twice. I had been really scared. It started out with him jumping on top of me and spanking me to make me shut up when we were arguing. Eventually, I became terrified that sooner or later I would hit my head when he jumped on me. Then he did this fake strangling thing. Twice. When somebody has their hands around your neck, you don't know if you're going to die or not. The fact that you can still breath seems like it may be temporary. Thus, uniformed officers were summoned by yours truly. Twice. A judge told him, "You do it again, Mr. ____, and you're going to the penitentiary." So there is no more physical component. What great progress!
After the first arrest, while talking with him on the phone, I explained that I had made audio tapes of his rants, in which he admitted to the strangling incident, just in case I died, because I wanted to leave evidence behind. I didn't want him to get away with manslaughter. It would be bad enough to be dead and all, but to have him collect on my life insurance and have nobody ever know that he kept jumping little me until I foreseeably hit my head and died? No way! You know what he said? "Those tapes are just going to get me screwed by the legal system." I said, "You understand that in this scenario I am dead at your hands? Doesn't it seem like since I'm dead, I'm the one that got screwed? Doesn't it seem like since you would be guilty of at least manslaughter, you should go to prison?" He was sure, "No... It would be your own fault because you wouldn't shut up."
So, you're going through something similar to what I'm going through. My husband was described by a T as having NT. I swear, I think that T had some kind of weird thing going where he wanted things to get worse for my H, having something to do with the T's feeling about his own father. As far as I'm concerned that's just the T's own weirdness. It doesn't change the validity of his diagnosis, which seems to fit the NT profile perfectly. It just reinforces my opinion that everybody is weird as Hell. So I guess I should be having a glass of wine, while I shop online for some hot shoes, to wear out on a date with that handsone man that works in my office. Just kidding.
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Confounded....
I see so much better what you are dealing with. I am starting to grasp why everything sounds so brittle and desperate. Hon, why are you there?
Why do you want to be with a man who would choke you, jump on you, rage at you? Really. Can there be a good reason?
How can you ever "logic" him into changing? It's like being mad at a wart hog for not being a giraffe.
Meanwhile, this doesnt sound safe.
Sending you strength,
Hops
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Hiya Hope:
Welcome! Glad you're here but sorry for what brought you. :( No fun, nor for your kids either).
my husband had me thinking "I" was mentally unstable. I have been told that I am not, that I have the typical symptoms of a victum of domestic violence...
The above sentence is of major importance. You......are not wacko. You.......have symptoms of something nasty and wacko! You have symptoms!!! :shock:
Let's substitute something specific in that sentence, just for kicks, to see if it sheds more light:
"my husband had me thinking I was the plague. I have been told I am not the plague, that I have the typical symptoms of a victim of the plague..."
What to do? Where did the symptoms come from? If you stick around, will you eventually catch the plague? Will your kids get it? If you knew for sure it was the plague......that deadly sickness that kills without mercy......that you are exposing yourself and your children to......would you allow it in your house?
You can't "catch" Nism, like the plaque, but it does seem to wear on those who are exposed to it ....regularly. It does seem to produce certain "symptoms" and it will eventually drive you nuts or drive you out (just about most certainly ...more than likely....probably).
I have this problem with feeling bad for people too easily. I just keep thinking that he must be tormented inside. However, I do not feel sorry enough for him to subject my children. He is not living with us right now.
Glad to hear it! :D You get to see first hand how good it can be when he's not there. Wonderful! Soak that in!!
It's very kind and loving of you to to feel for him and to try to understand him and empathize with him. How about yourself? Who is feeling sorry for you (and your kids) and who is trying to understand the torment you (and your kids) are experiencing inside? Will you have the same compassion for yourself/your kids? The same empathy? Treat yourself and your kids with as much kindness and love?
The symptoms of domestic violence. :( It's like the plague, in a way eh?
((((((((((((((((big hug for Hope and her children))))))))))))))))))
There comes a time when we all have to face the consequences of our behaviour. His time will come.
What you decide from now on will determine your future regrets or a lack of them, I bet.
Sela
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HOPE,
me too...
i mean narcissistic is one bear of a word to spell
..was it a plot by narcissists to mess with our minds..
i suspect as much....
IN REFERENCE THAT THE SUBJECT FOR THIS THREAD IS:
How do know if someone is narsistic?
u might have well already been corrected or commented ot caught it
but i couldnt resist ..sorry...
maybe some narsisist had u bent out of shape at the moment too..
or maybe you were seeing what kind of reaction the misspelling would get :)
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Hops, I just can't believe that I may have to give up on my second marriage, having been forced to give up on my first. Since things with H are better now, as in I am in no physical danger, I feel that giving up now would not make sense. Every time we have considered spiltting in the past, neither of us could actually go through with it. I often wonder what would happen if I won the Lotto. Would the removal of all need to apply effort in life suddenly make our problems seem trivial? Would it make the difference? On the other hand, would it make it easier to just walk away. No need to reinvent my career in another place. Just get up and go, and first class all the way. Of course, that would be pretty tacky. Win the Lotto and dump my H. "I can do better now... So you're history, Dude."
When our prior T told me about H's NT diagnosis, I eventually got around to asking him what percentage of people have something going on with them that is worthy of a diagnosis. He said 50%. I was pretty surprised. Given the issues that he presented about himself (making it about himself is a big No-No in his field), I wonder if he counts himself in that 50%. I'll just call it the "50% of People Are Weird as Hell" group. I think that since my first and second husbands are in that group, I would probably just turn my life upside down again, and end up with a third H who is also in that group. Better the devil you know... I know it's lame.
I'm actually quite worried about H. He will be changing jobs at some point, and I have grave reservations about his ability to handle a new organization's learning curve, take constructive criticism, remember what he has been told, and just deal with people and reality in general. He has had the same job for decades. I worry that he might crash and burn in a new job. I hope not. He can seem so smart and normal. But if someone crosses him, and that is easily done, his reactions are so extreme that I often ask him if he's serious or kidding. He's serious, or so he says.
Sometimes I feel so angry with him, but less so recently. The more I learn about N's, and my H with NT (to the extent that what I am seeing is just a watered down version of NPD), the more I just try to find out what he is thinking and deal with it. I don't get very mad or argue with his as much. It's impossible to take him very seriously anymore. I mean, he may be serious, but his thinking is so bizare and the information about the whole N thing that I have gained is so well matched to his behavior, that I often think of him now as a very interesting specimen. But it feels kind of sad, because the knowledge of how defective his thinking is has become unavoidable. I know that even when he seems to be fine, he isn't. He just isn't saying anything crazy at the moment. But he's carrying his anger around with him. Simmering, waiting to boi, and then eventually steaming mad. I am sort of fascinated by it all.
But it's starting to make me dread him. I assume that at some point in the future we will get back to a good place. But I do wonder. I am starting to feel completely separate from him. I used to look forward to his touch. But has recently become repugnant to me. This is a very different situation, all of a sudden. I am not sure what changed. I guess that having him out of town and liking it so well, plus reading stories here that sound like the same trying behavior, and now having him back in town after his trip and having to deal with all his issues... I just don't want him around me very much.
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I understand, Confounded, and I hear the sadness underneath your anger.
I grieved terribly over my second divorce. At the time of my first, I found it much easier to think about statistics and forgive myself. It seemed to me that almost anyone could be divorced once and not be a terrirble person. But twice? That was the biggest battle for me. I felt a great deal of shame.
Now, of course, I'm more ashamed that I didn't have the intuitive self-respect to take a hike.
But overall, I'm more at peace than I was for decades (it's been about 12 years since my 2nd divorce). But at first, it was an enormous obstacle for me emotionally. He was N, pathological liar, not good to my child...so I stayed 7 years wringing my hands.
Noone else can write your life but you, though. Just be careful. Living with an explosive rager is a real health hazard, in addition to making one unhappy.
hugs
Hops
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I understand your problem with the thought of dealing with a second divorce. Thankfully I was not married to XN but I know that sense of another failed relationship kept me in there longer than I needed to be. I just did not want to give up. Eventually the penny dropped for me that while XN IS an N there is something about me that I was with one AGAIN. I can tell you that every relationship I have had has been with the same man in a different body. So there had to be something about me. This is what my life is about now. Looking at my part. My lack of self love, my willingness to accept the crumbs from the table, my justification of others disgusting behaviour, my ability to take responsibility for what is not mine, my desire to fix, my desire to rescue, my need to be the victim, my inability to walk when I SEE the red flags, my ignoring my gut, my desire to be rescued......... and boy could I go on about this.
I left to heal myself, to live my life for the first time in 50 years, to learn to love myself and value me. To find my voice.
axa
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Living with an explosive rager is a real health hazard, in addition to making one unhappy.
Yes, even though I feel protected by the legal system now, the stress is a big worry. The racing heart, the jittery nerves, the sadness, the distraction, the anger (mine), the disappointment, all seem so unhealthy. It makes me want to cry. But I am over feeling depressed about this. He had me going for a looong time, crying endlessly because I thought that he loved his late wife more than he loved me.
But now I know, anything he says when he's mad may later be recanted, with the seemingly reasonable (not!) explanation that he knew it wasn't true when he said it, and he just said it because he was mad. Read, he was mad and he had nothing logical to say so he just threw out any BS that he thought might work. Wound your wife, by throwing your late wife in her face. That will take the focus off of the fact that you can't win this argument based on anything factual. "She always did this. She always did that. She never gave me any shit. We never argued. She was the perfect wife and we had the perfect marriage." That was a load of crap. He just tried to leverage her to get me to comply with his endless demands.
The worst part is that when we have been happy, it has been really good. But something seems to be happening. I seem to be drifting further and further away from him. The other night, for the first time ever, we were in bed and I found that I could not stand his touch. Instead of turning me on he was making me feel revultion. I just couldn't stand it. This has never happened before. I have always adored his touch. I think that he has grossed me out. He just seems like an inappropriate partner suddenly.
I don't know why this is happening exactly, But I think it's partly related to his statement about how he had been given lots of reasons to get mad over the days prior to one of his blowups. Upon reflection, it seemed pretty clear that the reason he blows up is because he gets a little mad about so many things, and eventually the pressure is too much, and he has a raging fit. So I see that my perception that his angry raging is unavoidable is CORRECT. It also means that on any given day his little anger gauge would read 10%, or 40%, or 90%, or whatever. Things are almost never realty right between us. It's just a matter of how much pressure has built up so far, and how long it will take him to blow up again. It is unavoidable,
The other part seems related to his horrible aversion to working on our home and yard. He criticizes and complains endlessly, to the point where I have lost respect for him. He seems to be not a man, but an angry pre-teenager. Eeeeeewwww...
I hate his rage. I hate what goes on in his mind. It's so toxic. I keep trying to solve this puzzle. Trying to think of something to say that will get through to him. My latest is, "Would you agree that if someone thinks that 100% of the problems in that his or her relationship are caused by his or her partner, then it is probably true that a huge persentage of the problems are actually caused by that person?"
Maybe I'll try this on him in therapy tomorrow. I have been wondering what I can discuss in therapy that might help. I am so lost. I don't want to give up. I guess that I have to just hang in there and see if study, you who have faced this as well, and our T might be able to help me learn some coping strategies that can save this marriage. I know it's a long shot. But as I said, we have come close to splitting several times and not done it. So I don't expect to split with him. I just hope that doesn't mean that we will both be holding on, waiting for the "death do us part" sigh of relief.
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(((((((((((((((Confounded)))))))))))))))
It's so hard.
I'm really glad you're here.
Hops
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Take the kid away from him. Divorce. Or just leave, or give him to relatives.
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Confounded,
Your story has always seemed so familiar to me! I think I can give you a clue about the revulsion that's developing--and it's contained in what you have said about your overall relationship.
It's starting to dawn on you that you are married to a child. He shouts things he doesnt mean when he's angry, he has poor impulse control, he has a tantrum when asked to take on normal responsibilities for a home, you can't have a conversation with him as you would with another adult--you have to try to figure out how to say things so he can understand you. You have, in effect, been handed the role of the mother in your relationship.
How in the heck do you have an intimate relationship with someone who is acting like a child????? Of course, it's a turn off! For me, our physical relationship began being one more thing I had to do for "the child". It wasnt a loving interchange between two adults. I was confused, as you are. I went to counseling to try to figure out what was wrong with me. My counselor didnt come up with this answer--we tried to figure out what childhood issues triggered my revulsion. Oh, for heaven's sakes!
I have finally decided that spending the majority of my life cajoling, arguing, mothering this "baby" was going to be a permanent turn off. I quit blaming myself for it. We arent geared to be attracted to that type of person--from a strictly survival of the species point of view, someone this childish and irresponsible is a poor choice.
CB
And then there is the "child" who "promises" to take care of some adult responsibility, then conveniently "ignores/forgets" to follow through. I HATE THAT!!!!!
Bones
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I've become convinced that my soon-to-be ex boyfriend has N tendencies, if not NPD because he has consistently demonstrated NO comprehension of how his actions impact others....NO empathy, NO compassion.....just a blank look when it it brought to his attention. I'm SICK and TIRED of CONSTANTLY explaining the OBVIOUS only to have him continue as if I NEVER said a word!
Bones
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Dear Bones,
Keep watching.The main thing is to face 'what is". This is one of the hardest things to do,also.IMO, we so much want to be loved that we do not always chose wisely. Also, we have our own"sick" ways that attract us to other "sick" people(. I am speaking for myself here.)
Keep sharing and writing Love Ami
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Dear Bones,
Keep watching.The main thing is to face 'what is". This is one of the hardest things to do,also.IMO, we so much want to be loved that we do not always chose wisely. Also, we have our own"sick" ways that attract us to other "sick" people(. I am speaking for myself here.)
Keep sharing and writing Love Ami
Thanks, Ami!
Bones
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And then there is the "child" who "promises" to take care of some adult responsibility, then conveniently "ignores/forgets" to follow through. I HATE THAT!!!!!
Bones
Gosh how I can relate to THIS ONE! Not paying bills on time, broken promises, so-called suprise gifts that rarely materialize. ALmost 20 years of it!!!
My husband is that CHILD you speak of. I can't tell you how often my phone has been shut off, lost electric, water, etc...because of his irresponsibility. Like you say, too, he has no clue how painful it's been for the girls and me...nor does he care.
Here is an example of some childish behavior: My dog got off his collar yesterday and ran the neighborhood (not good when it comes to lurking dog wardens who constantly try to take our dogs away). I told him "I put the dog out, with his collar on, hooked up his collar, he got a running start, snapped the collar and jumped over the fence and ran." Husband: "oh, you didn't put the collar on him." GRRRRRRRRRR
He acts so darn STUPID and IGNORANT and I just want to shake him, but if I did, he'd just look at me with a blank look on his face and then start talking to himself again or go back to doing whatever he was doing. It's so annoying.
He is more than Narcissistic. He has borderline, avoidant, anti-social tendencies as well. NONE OF THIS WAS SEEN BEFORE I MARRIED HIM! You sometimes just don't know.
He cheated on me once, denied it of course, and I had to decide whether to stay with him and risk my life and health again, or to leave. I opted to stay, out of my own need for staying in the "comfort zone" and "Familiar" and out of not wanting to go through a divorce and have him turn the girls against me. I do not regret sticking it out, cause God is really blessing me in other ways, through friends and jobs and just life.
It's been hard and sometimes it still is. I'm seeing a psychologist to deal with my anger issues and before that, I was on meds. I'm off all meds and doing well.
~Laura
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Awww, Laura.
Hon.
I am so sorry.
Your life is not easy, friend.
And you have made lemonade maybe a thousand times out of all those lemons.
I'm also (other thread) very sorry to hear about the money struggle.
Sorry also that your husband was hurt, though it's a little harder to sympathize!
I know you and your children have a right to a peaceful life. That's what I know.
love and peace and hope to you,
Hops
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And then there is the "child" who "promises" to take care of some adult responsibility, then conveniently "ignores/forgets" to follow through. I HATE THAT!!!!!
Bones
Gosh how I can relate to THIS ONE! Not paying bills on time, broken promises, so-called suprise gifts that rarely materialize. ALmost 20 years of it!!!
My husband is that CHILD you speak of. I can't tell you how often my phone has been shut off, lost electric, water, etc...because of his irresponsibility. Like you say, too, he has no clue how painful it's been for the girls and me...nor does he care.
Here is an example of some childish behavior: My dog got off his collar yesterday and ran the neighborhood (not good when it comes to lurking dog wardens who constantly try to take our dogs away). I told him "I put the dog out, with his collar on, hooked up his collar, he got a running start, snapped the collar and jumped over the fence and ran." Husband: "oh, you didn't put the collar on him." GRRRRRRRRRR
He acts so darn STUPID and IGNORANT and I just want to shake him, but if I did, he'd just look at me with a blank look on his face and then start talking to himself again or go back to doing whatever he was doing. It's so annoying.
He is more than Narcissistic. He has borderline, avoidant, anti-social tendencies as well. NONE OF THIS WAS SEEN BEFORE I MARRIED HIM! You sometimes just don't know.
He cheated on me once, denied it of course, and I had to decide whether to stay with him and risk my life and health again, or to leave. I opted to stay, out of my own need for staying in the "comfort zone" and "Familiar" and out of not wanting to go through a divorce and have him turn the girls against me. I do not regret sticking it out, cause God is really blessing me in other ways, through friends and jobs and just life.
It's been hard and sometimes it still is. I'm seeing a psychologist to deal with my anger issues and before that, I was on meds. I'm off all meds and doing well.
~Laura
Sounds like your husband and my irresponsible adult "Child" could be twins separated at birth!
Bones
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Laura,
Ohhhh,, my God!!! I feel the same way you do and had the same husband only mine was more nuts then yours. Mine went all the way to jail but the personality you describe in your post was mine to the T.
Are they really just stupid and ignorant or do they just act that way. That I still wonder.
The crap they do and think we believe makes me think they are just to STUPID to know they are even STUPID.
I had mine one time get a speeding ticket, hide it and when I found it and read what it was for the INK that the COP wrote and the DATE AND TIME AND WHAT FOR tried to tell me it was not. He even said let me see then read it and tried to tell me the DATE was different and it did not say speeding. NOW THAT IS STUPID!! I can see what it said. Then he said oh I was trying to throw you off so you would say F**k it and throw it on the side. How the hell can you throw me off of this. I HAVE EYES and know what I see.
Which bring me back to are they really STUPID or just play STUPID OR THINK I'M STUPID and everyone else in this world all except them.
I would be way to embarrassed to try to pull off some of the things they think they can. That's another thing I noticed they don't get embarrassed.
Ay yi yi yi,
Deb
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Laura,
Ohhhh,, my God!!! I feel the same way you do and had the same husband only mine was more nuts then yours. Mine went all the way to jail but the personality you describe in your post was mine to the T.
Are they really just stupid and ignorant or do they just act that way. That I still wonder.
The crap they do and think we believe makes me think they are just to STUPID to know they are even STUPID.
I had mine one time get a speeding ticket, hide it and when I found it and read what it was for the INK that the COP wrote and the DATE AND TIME AND WHAT FOR tried to tell me it was not. He even said let me see then read it and tried to tell me the DATE was different and it did not say speeding. NOW THAT IS STUPID!! I can see what it said. Then he said oh I was trying to throw you off so you would say F**k it and throw it on the side. How the hell can you throw me off of this. I HAVE EYES and know what I see.
Which bring me back to are they really STUPID or just play STUPID OR THINK I'M STUPID and everyone else in this world all except them.
I would be way to embarrassed to try to pull off some of the things they think they can. That's another thing I noticed they don't get embarrassed.
Ay yi yi yi,
Deb
Maybe we're dealing with identical triplets separated at birth! Good Grief!!!
Bones
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BTW, how do the other two males react when cornered?
Bones
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Bones,
When mine was cornered. He ran. If he was not physically running he was running in his head through contradictions, lies, manipulation. If it was not working on me he recruited other people by proxy to do his dirty work and they didn't even know it. Or he would ignore that I was even talking. Or he would blow me off. Or he would project, or he would make me think I was crazy because I could not keep up with all the contradictions and forget what I was talking about in the first place and hope that I would say oh to hell with this and shut up.
Laura is right when she said they always have a way of telling on themselves. Mine had a habit of talking in examples and statistics.
Something like this;
Do you know that 99percent of the men have cheated either once or twice while married and the other 1 percent will lie and say they didn't.
So you are telling me you cheated once and are planning on twice?
NO! Not me I'm saying the statistics are what I just said.
Ok so you are saying that you are the 1 percent that lies about it?
NO, that's the other guy, NOT ME, I'm just saying that I'm very smart and learn a lot. I don't think that is right. I would not do that. I'm just saying those other people.
What other people, you just said 100 percent do it. 99 per cent do it and 1 percent lies about it but do it. So that means you fall into one of those categories.
I do not, ok I was wrong I meant that 99 percent cheat and I'm in the one percent that don't. What I meant is that 1 percent really don't cheat they just make believe they do so the other guys will look at them like WOW!! Like boys talk, you know guys do that to make themselves feel big.
OMG! WHAT AN ASS*H**E, just told on himself and I loved watching him go from corner to corner running like a little trapped rat.
They really are not bright! At least mine wasn't.
You know come to think of it my friends ex also talked like that. With examples but NOT HIM, other people.
Deb
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Deb,
your post was BRILLIANT! It was short, to the point and very picturesque too!
My husband does the same thing you said yours does, and you handle it the same way I do. This helps to know that someone else "calls them" on their crud :)
The main thing with N's is they always seem to notice the flaws in others but NOOOOOOOOO NEVER themselves! They cannot allow that image of who they THINK they are, be tarnished, or their cover will be BLOWN! can't have THAT...no no no.
My husband grew up being told he was the GOOD BOY, cause he was a caretaker of his mother and sister. His brothers got into alcohol and drugs, but NOOOOOOOO not him...he was the MORAL one, the GOOD one, the RESPONSIBLE one.
As a result, he grew up with a VERY INFLATED image of himself and of anyone else who ADORED HIM or even people he doesn't know. When I did the online test for him, he turned out to be Narcissistic and Schizoid. He does have some WEIRD notions about life for sure.
To him, EVERYONE ADORES HIM. He finds it really hard to grasp that someone would NOT like him, but if they don't "oh well, that's THEIR problem." He sees pretty much everyone as if "oh, they aren't MEAN, they were just expressing an opinion!" A person could spit in his face, tell him to shove something up his $*&$&^* and go AWAY! and he would still totally say the behavior was NOT cruel and did NOT affect him and how SILLY OF ME to let it "get to me."
I usually feel very INVALIDATED when someone verbally attacks me and I go to my husband for help. He will NOT defend or protect me. He just tells me to leave the situation, ignore it, shake it off, etc. He was taught that if you ACT LIKE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, then IT DIDN'T.
These kind of things really P me off! i've always been the "whistle-blower" on dysfunction. I was the one who told people my step father was abusive. I told people my husband's aunt was abusive. I told people my husband's father was abusive and a child molester, so for him to sit there and defend the cruelty of people in this world...well, I'm LIVID at times about it! He is SO deluded!
ok, I guess I've said enough here. Just my feelings coming out and I know I have a voice to express them here, so I did.
~Laura
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Gosh! I have soooooooo much to share on this topic!
I will wait till I locate my journal, but for now, another way you can know if someone is an N, is that they will say things that tactful, kind people would NEVER say. It's not that they say things that are NOT true; it's that they blurt out the most hurtful things, that most people have the decency NOT to say to a person's face.
Here are some examples:
Human: "I'm really upset. That dress I had put aside for my son's wedding day just doesn't zip anymore."
Narcissist: "Ya know, you really are fat. Ever consider that show on tv? The one where they do makeovers?"
Human: "I'm so concerned about my grandmother."
Narcissist: "why? Is she still sick from the cancer?"
Human: "Yeah, they don't give her long to live."
Narcissist: "well, at least she paid on that boat before she kicks off. That would have left such a burden on your mom!"
Human: "I can't believe I just went out there and made a complete fool of myself ON STAGE!"
Narcissist: "Well, after all, I told you I'd make a better Cleopatra than you did in that play."
Human: "I am in soooooooo much pain from that board hitting my foot the other day."
Narcissist: "I have this huge lump on my head. My daughter told me that these things sometimes form as you get older, ya know? I think it feels like it's going away though. I really hope so, cause I have that big dinner date on Sunday with my boyfriend and it would totally not be good for me to walk in there as head of the club, with a huge, unsightly knot on my face!" (totally ignored MY pain, notice)
Human: "I'm concerned that you rarely seem to listen to me, or, even if you do, the topic goes right back onto you and your issues. I feel invalidated."
Narcissist: "My dear...your problem is that you expect way too much of me. I'm only human. If you expect me never to make a mistake, you are really setting yourself up for some disappointment. What do you WANT FROM ME?"
Human: " Oh my gosh! did you see that? The little girl around the block was raped and they think it was her uncle who did it!"
Narcissist: "oh"
Human: "didn't you HEAR what I said? Mindy, that little girl around the block was RAPED!"
Narcissist: "I heard ya."
Human: "That's it? That's all you are going to say? You heard me? Dear God, Francis! This little girl is about 4 years old! Her UNCLE RAPED HER!"
Narcissist: "What are you SHOUTING AT ME FOR?"
Human: "oh my GOD! Don't you have a heart? Don't you even give a rip? A little girl was raped...A little girl your neice is friends with!"
Narcissist: "My gosh! I heard you already. Why do you keep repeating it like a broken record?"
Human: "Cause maybe I want you to give a dam*!"
Narcissist: "What do you WANT ME TO SAY? There aint' nothing I can do about it, so just LET IT GO ALREADY!"
THESE ARE THE KINDS OF COLD, HEARTLESS THINGS THAT YOU WILL HEAR FROM A NARCISSIST. They act like idiots! Only GOD can change most of em!
~Laura
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I agree Laura!
An example of idiocy from my late Nmother, when she brought up the topic of her ex-boyfriend molesting and raping the children in the neighborhood (and she KNEW about it all along):
"Well, ALL children are NATURALLY whores so they deserve to be raped!"
BOY, did I go BALLISTIC on THAT one and tore her a new a$$H***! I REFUSED to let THAT go unchallenged!!!!!
Bones
P.S. She was in a nursing home at the time and I was SO LIVID that I didn't care who heard me!
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One of the things I have become painfully aware of, with my soon-to-be-ex boyfriend, is that he is doing a LOT of gaslighting lately and has been caught at it time and time again. Even my other friends and acquaintences have encountered it and ask me: "What's up with him?!?!?"
Bones
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I am sorry.Bones. You have had so many betrayals. My heart goes out to you Love Ami
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I am sorry.Bones. You have had so many betrayals. My heart goes out to you Love Ami
Thanks, Ami.
I've been looking back at all the little incidents that seemed strange at the time and they all appear to fit into an N pattern.
Bones
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Bones,isn't it horrible to face it? Ami
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Bones,isn't it horrible to face it? Ami
Yes, it is.
Bones
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Yes it is
sea storm
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You okay, Sea?
Hops
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I encountered an incident yesterday that brought up more questions for me.
I was vending at a yard sale most of the day. At the end of the day, given that my friend (girl from high school) and I had sold some stuff, it initially appeared that she would have enough room in her station wagon to cart off what she didn't sell to the Salvation Army and I could head straight home to work on my own errands. That's when she springs on me that, without my knowledge, she had dropped off additional stuff in another friend's garage, the night before, and she ASSUMED that I was going to put her stuff in MY car for her convenience as she didn't have room! I didn't care that her other friends, plus her sister were standing there. I told her that I did NOT appreciate having this kind of surprise sprung on me, without any warning or prior discussion, at the very LAST second! (She has a bad habit of ASSUMING that I have nothing to do, nowhere to go, and be automatically available for whatever SHE wants at her convenience. She doesn't throw tantrums. She plays "pseudo-stupid" and forces you to explain the OBVIOUS repeatedly.) Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bones
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... umm...
her stuff is NOT in your car, is it? That's the bottom line.
Ugh. This stuff is everywhere!
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Bones
What are you asking,Bones? Ami
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Dear Hope-
For so long I couldnt figure out what was wrong with my X. We have been broken up for 4 years now, and just recently I began to research personality disorders. When I read the criteria for Narcissism, I swore my ex WAS the case study. Every one of the 9 criteria to diagnose him was right on! And then somewhere in my research, I found this message board. I am currently going through a custody battle with him over our 5 year old son. To make a long story short, you are in the right place. Everone in here has been so instrumental in my battle, and I encourage you to keep posting because it helps!!! I was so skeptical when I first posted under Custody battle with a N... And I recently went through an evaluation, and EVERYTHING was in his favor. Thank GOD the Judge saw through him and the evaluator, and did not go with the evaluators reccomendations!!! I couldnt have done it w/o posting here and getting the great advise I got RIGHT HERE!!! I wish you all the best, Hope.
KM
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... umm...
her stuff is NOT in your car, is it? That's the bottom line.
Ugh. This stuff is everywhere!
Her church members went ahead and placed some of it in my car. I told her she had to come to my place to reclaim it as I was NOT going to the Salvation Army and I am NOT going to be a delivery service! I let her know that I do NOT appreciate being imposed upon like this and I voiced this in front of witnesses!
Bones
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Bones
What are you asking,Bones? Ami
I guess I'm asking if her assuming and imposing on me, like she did, is N-behavior?
Bones
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It does not matter what the 'label' is . She is imposing on you and that it enough to know(IMO).I,personally, could not tell if she is an N or it is N behavior from that small amount of information Love Ami
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It does not matter what the 'label' is . She is imposing on you and that it enough to know(IMO).I,personally, could not tell if she is an N or it is N behavior from that small amount of information Love Ami
Thanks, Ami.
Bones
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To me, it feels like N-ish behavior because she appears to "give herself permission" to impose on others and she "assumes it's OK" because she assumes that everyone else thinks the same way she does. One of the times she wanted to do something that was inconvenient at the time, and I told her "No, not now", she complained that I was "being difficult". She got an earful, from me, about how she needs to stop and think about how what she wants to do impacts other people around her. Then she started to act "pseudo-stupid", which annoys the hell out of me!
Bones
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The information here is fascinating- I never connected my NH's somatic complaints with his N condition. He has suffered since his late teens from a choking sensation, the origin of which has evaded extensive medical investigation. He also uses another name, which the article mentions is a device for "self-parenting". I suppose his N behavior was a coping mechanism of sorts- it seems that others posting are able to deal with the N behavior in spouses better than I have. This is he first full day that he is gone, and I am thinking about my contributions to the chaos of our marriage.
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The information here is fascinating- I never connected my NH's somatic complaints with his N condition. He has suffered since his late teens from a choking sensation, the origin of which has evaded extensive medical investigation. He also uses another name, which the article mentions is a device for "self-parenting". I suppose his N behavior was a coping mechanism of sorts- it seems that others posting are able to deal with the N behavior in spouses better than I have. This is he first full day that he is gone, and I am thinking about my contributions to the chaos of our marriage.
Hey, Changing.
How about considering the possibility of taking a breath and focus on (1) the peace and quiet within your house (no screaming, cursing and porn going on), (2) the beginning of the healing within yourself now that King Baby is no longer dumping on you? Just a few thoughts for now!
Bones
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Bones-
Yes! Good idea!
Thank you,
Changing
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Bones-
Yes! Good idea!
Thank you,
Changing
You're welcome!
Bones
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To me, it feels like N-ish behavior because she appears to "give herself permission" to impose on others and she "assumes it's OK" because she assumes that everyone else thinks the same way she does. One of the times she wanted to do something that was inconvenient at the time, and I told her "No, not now", she complained that I was "being difficult". She got an earful, from me, about how she needs to stop and think about how what she wants to do impacts other people around her. Then she started to act "pseudo-stupid", which annoys the hell out of me!
Bones
So......would this be classified as "N-ish behavior" or "Narcissism"?
Bones
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Hope-what your H is doing is called gaslighting. This is where someone manipulates you and makes you feel uneasy and unsure of yourself. It is because of their manipulations but then they suggest you are unstable and need to get counseling. For years I was convinced that I was the one with the problem and when I finally did all the research and realized she was projecting all her stuff on me and accusing me of being the one with the problem, it was freeing!
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I can relate to the last post. My husband, I beleive has NPD and I have a 13 year old son that he has treated horribly since we got married and has always used the excuse that he was causing trouble or that he isn't his biological son. When my husband does things to us and I confront him about it, he never acknowledges or says he's sorry, he just tries to come up with ways to fix our relationship, like ME working on his emotional needs and then he won't be so upset all the time. Even after becoming physically violent in front of my son and he still only talks about our relationship in ways like, "when OUR relationship made a turn for the worse" etc. He won't acknowledge he's the problem. I also wondered if I was crzy and I called his ex-wife once and got my feelings verified. The first thing she said to me was that he was very emotionally abusive and I can't tell you how much better I felt. Of course he reacted like I had cheated on him over it. Thing is my husband wasn't so much like this before we married, but his father killed himself 4 months before we got married and I belive that exsaberated the problem.
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tx,
I'd like to tell you a bit about my situation.
My husband, like yours, seems to want to put all blame on me for the trouble in our marriage of 20 years. I finally gave him an ultimatum that he will seek counseling or else. We had gone to other counselors in the past, but nothing seemed to stick.
Because my husband is slack on paying bills, I had to appeal to the church to help us keep our electric/gas on in our home. After they paid $500 of our bills, they told us we needed to have debt counseling through church or they could not and would not help us further. So, last sunday we met with the debt counselor, who told us "you both would really benefit from marriage counseling." I think that WOKE HIM UP, HEARING IT FROM ANOTHER MALE AUTHORITY. He agreed to go for counseling, but said "I guess it wouldn't hurt to go one time." I told him, "ohhhhhhhhh no. I'm not playin that game. We are going to counseling regularly as we need it." He said "ok whatever."
Well, today during church, I showed him an announcement about marriage encounter. He asked me "did you see THIS one?" It was a 2 hour marriage thingy. I said "maybe we could do both?" He said "I dunno. maybe."
So, we are on our way to a healthier marriage, thank GOD!
As far as the physical violence you mentioned...my husband's idol, his father, was raised in an orphanage. His father was brutal with the children, molested both my husband's sisters, and never asked forgiveness to my knowledge for any of it. My husband's mother stayed with the man WHILE HE WAS MOLESTING HER DAUGHTERS...to this day, my sister in law is angry about her mother not apologizing and admitting to what happened. My husband is the most like his father of all the sons. He has always painted his father as "giving the shirt off his back to anyone in need." I can tell you, I met the man...that much WAS true. ANy time we visited his father, he gave us things. He seemed to have a good heart, buried under the hurt and loneliness from not having had parents raise him and love him. The man was sexually explicit in conversations, as well as quite violent in them.
My husband grew up with a tyrant for a father. Even when his dad came to visit us, my husband showed him crafts he was working on...shelves...and his father always told him how they'd never sell, weren't built right, would be a disgrace to his talents, etc. I can recall my husband's face just dropping due to his father's disapproval. My husband doesn't remember any of it. Go figure...sigh.
There were several instances, when my husband was physically abusive to my oldest daughter, his stepchld. Finally, my bioogical mom told me if she ever heard that I stood back and allowed the abuse, she would report BOTH OF US and we'd lose our children. From that point on, I refused to let my husband use corporal punishment on my children. To this day, he still insists when we have issues with them, "if you would have let me "discipline" them, when they were young..." The problem was not lack of discipline. The problem was my children's father was raised in a home that was practical, farm-centered, and very non-emotional other than anger. All my husband has known all his life, was that, to be approved, you WORKED LIKE A HORSE! He tried to raise our girls as boys. He tried to make them TOUGH. It was very hard on me for sure, but one thing was, no matter what he did, I did NOT ALLOW HIM TO RAISE A HAND TO THEM!
I will tell you, whether you choose to stay with your husband or not, you must DISALLOW any physical abuse. Whatever it takes, do not allow it. If the man is verbally abusive, remove the children from his presence and learn to not internalize it. If you are not in personal counseling, I will let you know, it has really helped me to have someone outside the situation to talk to about it, even when my husband refused to go. Another thing is, read read read listen to tapes, watch videos, research the internet for information on bettering relationships, handling controllers, letting go of abusive partners...whatever...just DO IT for yourself, hon. Seriously. LIfe is SHORT in the grand scheme of things. YOu owe it to yourself to do what's best for you and to take care of your children's mother.
PLease let me/us know how things go. You'll be in my prayers.
~Laura