Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lupita on May 25, 2007, 08:52:14 AM
-
Copied from Confounded.
In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component. Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience.
I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N. The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out. Just wanted to start a new thread that talks about thi inner soul, if they have one, thought porcess if they can really think, and inheritance compound.
It would be so much interesting to find out what is going on in the little mind of our beloved Ns? Please help if you know something I can read, or post articles, or anything that can help me understand, if it is possible to understand.
Thank you for your help.
-
Hi Lupita, hope you are doing ok.
I'm not a fan of Vaknin, interesting ideas not really a theory or treatment model.
There are piles of articles here, Richard's essays and a lot of qualitative personal experience of living with the condition.
As an answer to your question I don't think there's much different about the mind of someone with NPD to ourselves, they have adopted a set of behaviours which compensate for their low self-esteem, depression and self-loathing which we experience as uncomfortable or abusive and which serve to keep them 'stuck'.
They are also individuals so each person will be different.
People talk about lack of empathy in NPD, it's true, it's not just that though: if you can get the person to see or acknowledge the effect on others they experience exaggerated shame...which fuels more grandiosity etc.
There's no magic way to interact with a NPD ( or any abusive person ) I don't think, just do what you have to do to get through, disengage and not repeat the experience!
I wasted a lot of time trying to fix my ex, and though it has reaped some rewards in that he has been to therapy and his behaviours are less extreme and more manageable it's still an inconsistent broken person who can shift positions in an instant: just last week after all this work and therapy and talking he told me he does not have NPD and I am insulting him. Today he acknowledged it again and when I asked about what he said last week he shrugged and didn't seem to remember.
Strange.
-
Dear Write, Dear Ami, Dear CB, same here, with my mother. She really makes me crazy, desperate. But Hop says she is not doing it in purpose. She does not even know the effect of her actions on me. They do not know the damage they do. Would we punish a blind man for stepping on our toes? Would be punish a deaf person for not answering a question? Still. it makes us climb the walls. As write said we need to detach, get away from them, if we cannot physically leave them, we have to emotionally leave them, forever. I cannot abandone my mother, I still have to write her e mails, talk to her on the phone, she comes to visit, she is visiting now ofr my surgery, but still, I am not able to detach. I suffer for evere thing she does.
:(
-
Hopalong, what do you think? did you read us in this thread? We sound so similar, we all sound so similar!!!!!!!
-
http://www.nevergoodenough.com/
This website seems to be interesting. Please, check it.
Welcome To The Website For Daughters
Raised By Narcissistic Mothers
Here you will find information related to an upcoming book: NEVER GOOD ENOUGH, How Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers Can Heal from the Legacy of Distorted Love, written by Dr. Karyl McBride.
“But enough about me. Let’s talk about you. What do YOU think of me?”
Bette Midler as CC Bloom in Beaches.
When I was a little girl, I had a talking doll named “Chatty Cathy”. Whenever I pulled her string, she spoke the same phrases: “Tell me a story” or “Please brush my hair.” It may seem strange, but when I think about how to describe a “narcissistic mother,” I have visions of that talking doll. A narcissistic mother’s interactions with her daughter are as predictably self-centered as the Chatty Cathy doll. No matter how many times the daughter “pulls the string”- hoping that her mother will focus on her and her needs, the mother’s involvement with her is always about Mom. As small children we don’t understand these dynamics between ourselves and our mothers. Mom may look like the perfect mother, just like Chatty Cathy looked like the perfect friend, yet the child is constantly struggling with feelings of disappointment, sadness, emptiness and frustration. She is longing for the emotional support and nurturing that she never receives from her mother.
Never Good Enough, is for the daughters of narcissistic mothers who have spent much of their adult lives dealing with the fallout of never having received maternal support and love.
Being the adult daughter of a narcissistic mother means that you were raised by someone who cared more for herself than she did for you. She approved of you only when your behavior reflected well upon her or your family. Since her love for you was conditional, you inherited a distorted sense of love and lacked the experience of genuine maternal nurturing. As a result, you have likely developed particular coping mechanisms: you hide or deny your pain, you become involved in intimate relationships that tend to be unhealthy or unsatisfying, you are an overachiever or a self-sabotager. There is the feeling, which directly relates to never having been able to please your mother, of never being quite good enough in relationship, career and life in general. Daughters of narcissistic mothers seem to flounder in life, struggling with chronic feelings of inadequacy and emptiness, knowing there is something wrong but not understanding what that something might be. For them, life thus becomes an agony of self-doubt.
Never Good Enough, gives a voice to the feelings these daughters have buried, offers them insight into the origins of their pain, and provides a blueprint for healing that can be personally tailored to each reader. Never Good Enough, explains the narcissistic mother dynamics to adult daughters and provides them with strategies so that they can begin to overcome their legacy of distorted love and enjoy their lives more fully.
NEVER GOOD ENOUGH: How Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers Can Heal from the Legacy of Distorted Love, is a self-help book written for adult daughters of narcissistic mothers. In this book, Dr. Karyl McBride is sharing her years of clinical and personal research to help daughters heal.
Learn more here about the topic of maternal narcissism and sign the registry to be notified of the publication release of upcoming title: Never Good Enough.
We also invite you to join our message board and share your thoughts and stories as well as gain support from other daughters of narcissistic mothers. Dr. McBride will be joining our discussion board on an intermittent basis as she is completing this important book.
Would you like to be interviewed for the book? Click here.
-
Thanks Lupita. I wrote her to volunteer for an interview. :-)
-
When you are a new born, if you have to cry louder to be fed, you will learn that you have to cry louder forever whtever you need. If she waits too mcuh o feed you when you are three days born and she lets you cry too mch to give you your bottle or breast, you learn that you have to cry louder to get whatever you need, your mother has created a whiner, becauswe you know that if you do not exagerate your complein you will not sasitsfied your need, that means that you were made to wait too much to get fed with bottel or breast, that means she has created a whiner ofr the rest of your life.
-
That is just one of one thousand reasons that I think that is one thousand reasons more important to have an N mother thtan to have an N husband, probably you get an N husband when you have an N mother. I do not make any sense because I cant think clearly, I am numbed. I am totally psychilogylaly drunk.
-
A narcissist's emotional growth stops maturing at the age of 2 1/2 or 3 years of age. This may be due to a trauma, which was more than their young psyche could withstand. Emotional growth was shut down, while intellectual and physical growth continued into adulthood.
Those who live with a narcissist usually begin to dance to the whimsical tune of a toddler in an adult body. This can be overwhelming and sometimes cripples family members emotionally until they understand the narcissist's game plan.
Children of narcissists, often choose a narcissist for a mate. At first, it may feel cozy and homelike to be manipulated by a handsome, charming, tyrannical lover, along with making them feel crazy and hurt.
-
has all of the tribe of...
Thought process in an N?
...thread
met all of the tribe of...
What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind? « 1 2 » ..
...thread
i feel like there could be one of rev. sun jung moons mass marriage in the future between your tribes :)
here is something from the other tribe to consider
Re: What are the inner thoughts in the N state of mind?
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2007, 09:07:40 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONFOUNDED HAD BROUGHT UP IN ANOTHER THREAD....
Quote
Confounded
Newbie
Posts: 20
Re: proposed new theory on understanding narcissists
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2007, 01:38:12 AM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component. Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience.
After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions. She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way. She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."
I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N. The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out.
I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me. However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice. He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken. Why don't they feel embarrassed? It's like the Emperor's new clothes. He's naked for God's sake!"
I think it's pretty sad. Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it. I don't think that he talks to himself internally. Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?). Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay. I'm not wrong. She's wrong. I'm not wrong. She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong. I'm NOT wrong. I"M NOT WRONG! GRRRR!!!" But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong. Never. (smile)" It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.
In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity. Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes. We wants none of these mentioned. If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious.
What ends up happening feels very odd. I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault. But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss." I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N. But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me. Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it. So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome. I don't know what that horrible outcome could be. Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.
If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really
SOME THINGS IN THAT OTHER THREAD SUCH AS
GIVING THE SOURCE OF A NEW THEORY OF NARCISSISM
BELOW
To help clarify to some, the proposed theory comes from an abstract for something that is online
and to view the full text, i think one has to join some way.
It is not my theory 
Abstract
Psychological Inquiry
2001, Vol. 12, No. 4, Pages 177-196
(doi:10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_1)
Unraveling the Paradoxes of Narcissism: A Dynamic Self-Regulatory Processing Model
Carolyn C. Morf
Behavioral Science Research Branch, National Institute of Mental Health
Frederick Rhodewalt
Department of Psychology, University of Utah
here is the url
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_
AND AN ABSTRACT OF THE ARTICLE ..BELOW
We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
SO THAT BEING DONE NOW...
THE QUESTION HAVE ANY ACCESSED THE ARTICLE
AS TAKING FROM THE ABOVE ABSTRACT IT SAYS
Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
OF SPECIAL NOTE THAT IS SPEAKS OF UNDERSTANDING BETTER THE NARCSISSIST'S INTERNAL SUBJECTIVE LOGIC ....
THE BUGGER IS THAT TO ACCESS THE ARTICLE ... IT COSTS...
WITH THE ADDENDUM THAT THE URL WAS WRONG AND CORRECTED IS
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15327965PLI1204_1
-
I truely deeply apologize but I do not understand what Mike says. Maybe I am a little retarded but the sophisticated language is too elaborated for my understanding. Also, I do believe that there is a huge difference between a woman adult raised by an N mother and a woman adult married to an N husband. That is why I started a new thread. Hope that somebody can help me in this matter.
A woman adult married to an N husband does not understand why the husband is like he is, but a woman raised by an N mother grows up all confused, not understanding what is going on, N mother rewards when she feels well no matter if you did right or wrong, and punish you if she feels bad, no matter if you did right or wrong, and that happenes when youa re learning at an extremely early age. That is why I believe that being raised by an N mother is different.
The article that I posted seems to be interesting. I registered for an interview. If you think that they can damage me, please let me know. I do not know if they can use your real name or somebody will know who you are. I do not know if they will help you or just use you.
Please, your thoughts are very much appreciated.
God bless you all.
Love to you all,
Lupita
-
Also, you can always leave your husband, but how to leave your mother?
You were not born with your husband. you can live with out him. But leaving with out a mother is hell, and l with her is hell. Your mother gave you birth. Your mother fed you, provided roof for you, clothing. How can you leave her, she is your mother, your family, a husband is a stranger that you invite in to your home. Your mother is not a stranger. is your mother.
She is your mother!!!!! For Christ!!!!! She is your mother!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
[font=Verdana]How can you leave your mother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/font[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]]
-
by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.
This is what I am looking for, to understand, but this does not give any explanation on how the internal subjective logic works in this kind of human beings.
This does not help me. I need help.
-
Dear Lupita,
While I agree that there are differences between having an N husband and having an N mother, I think the 2 are connected in the following way: I believe that a woman (or man) who was raised by a N mother (or parent) will marry (or be attracted to) an N man (or spouse).
So, I believe that marrying (or being attracted to) an N spouse can be the consequence of being raised by an N parent (particularly an N mother). This is because the N parent has conditioned us from childhood to accept abuse, not stand up for ourselves, destroyed our sense of self, have no boundaries, plus all the other bad stuff an N parent does to their child. This conditining leaves the child very vulnerable to choosing an N spose (or partner/love interest).
Sally
-
But leaving with out a mother is hell, and l with her is hell. Your mother gave you birth. Your mother fed you, provided roof for you, clothing. How can you leave her, she is your mother, your family, a husband is a stranger that you invite in to your home. Your mother is not a stranger. is your mother.
Dear Lupita,
I have been working on the issue of having N parents for about 2 years. I have had to face the "truth", acknowledge my denial and change the way I think, change the way I was raised to see the world.
I quoted you because I would like you to look at your assumptions. Please excuse me if I sound mean, but YOU are putting YOURSELF in "hell", but you do not have to do so. It is YOUR CHOICE as to whether you want to view the situation as being in "hell".
You could CHOOSE to view the situation as your mother is an imperfect person (as we all are) and she will not change. Let go you YOUR DESIRE that your mother change.
I had to change my thinking and let go of a lot of my desires that people change and I worked a lot of this out in therapy. With a loving heart, I wouldlike to suggest that you find a good therapist to help you REALLY LOOK at yout thinking patterns and assumptions. It could make you feel a lot happier and no longer desire things which can never be.
love,
Sally
-
Also, you can always leave your husband, but how to leave your mother?
You were not born with your husband. you can live with out him. But leaving with out a mother is hell, and l with her is hell. Your mother gave you birth. Your mother fed you, provided roof for you, clothing. How can you leave her, she is your mother, your family, a husband is a stranger that you invite in to your home. Your mother is not a stranger. is your mother.
She is your mother!!!!! For Christ!!!!! She is your mother!!!!!!!!!!!!
PROBABLY A BETTER PERSON TO ASK
is your father in heaven...
and in a sense when your heart is cleansed you have discernment
how to emotionally detach from some things
.. best way to do that is pms
no not that pms :P
but prayer meditation and service...
sounds to me like your concern is that how do you get over the hurt
when it was your own mother
and how does one explain such spiritually..
in part my way involves reincarnation and that it is compatible with the bible
now tho consuliting the urim of thummim on the priest's breastplate..
oops now where did i put my breastplate..
guess coins and the i ching will have to do ..sigh
and the throw of coins suggest some insights about your concern along these lines..
line 1 of hexagram inner trust
Line 1:
Anticipation brings good fortune.
There is elsewhere no comfort.
Things will go well by anticipating things. One needs to be aware of what is going to happen, and prepare for it. Over-preparing or not preparing at all will not help to make one confident and comfortable.
FROM ANOTHER SOURCE ON THAT SAME LINE...
when the truth which lies within is working as it should, it might do more learning than teaching and have more questions than answers. what one believes often says more about what one feels one needs or wants than the real truth of the matter. sometimes to learn what you need what will help is to look with a simpler mind at the negative issue that is a concern to better discern its paritular workings in your particular situation. some knowledge that presumes more for it that it has to give has a down side , namely too much presumption and prejudice ... what might be key is unlearning some knowledge that is more presumption and prejudice than what one wants to face....
LINE ONE IN HEXAGRAMS IS OFTEN SEEN AS A KIND OF KARMIC BACKDROP TO THE CONCERN..
the i ching suggests that if the understanding it gives is applied a new situation that can develop
when line one changes polarities and forms a new hexagram..[a six line figure of lines being active or receptive.which gives a total of 64 hexagrams]
THE NEW HEXAGRAM IN THIS CASE IS 59 WHICH IN TRANSLATION IS CALLED SCATTERING...
..having come to a new understanding one can now move on faith that is more free of false presumption and prejudice
and by faith transcend the former limitations and negativity and one can begin one's return to the full light of understanding that all souls are capable of.
the same line of the new hexagram that was the changing line of the first hexagram also often adds some insights
so line 1 of the new hexagram speaks of
if one reaches this new faith there is yet a need of caution in this new found understanding
one might again become too presumptious with this new knowledge and tis best to be mindful
that one is yet might be a babe in this new faith
and presume a maturity beyiond where they have come...
so remain cautious of remaining hidden prejudices and presumptions that could come to taint the higher insights
-
Lupita, parents murder their children, literally, every day. It happens often enough that we have names for it, and laws about it, and requirements for teachers and physicians to report any signs that a child is in danger of it, along with standardized mandatory minimum punishments for it.
I'm talking physical murder. Shaking babies until they have concussions and die. Battering children until they die from their injuries. Neglecting and starving them until they die from infections and malnutrition.
To take the position that these children have to stay with their parents because 'they're the child's parents' is to advocate total insanity, not to mention evil.
What difference does it make, in the final analysis, whether the murder being committed is of the body or of the soul, of the heart, of the mind?
One difference only. Society doesn't recognize the second type of murder, doesn't really care about abuse at any level short of physical, and in fact is so deeply invested in denial about abuse at all levels that people will refuse to recognize when a child is in danger of being literally killed, until they're so badly harmed that the situation can no longer be ignored. Often this isn't the case until the child is finally dead.
Society won't do a thing to rescue the child. Society is only interested in taking vengeance upon the parent after the child has been destroyed, not in preventing the destruction in the first place, not at any level.
If you are that child, if you were that child, it's important to understand that societal expectations will be just as strong a set of cage bars as any entrapment your parent puts in your way by brainwashing you into thinking that they can do whatever they want to you, mistreat you as obscenely as they like, and you have to put up with it, and even offer yourself up for more of it, merely because they happen to have been your biological parent.
It's up to you to walk out of that cage. Society isn't going to do one blessed thing to help you.
Once you survive to adulthood, you can do it. It isn't easy, but it becomes possible.
-
lupita,
in another thread there is a link to a site that is specifically about
daughthers of narcissistic mothers that you might find helpful
if u havent come across it yet
http://www.nevergoodenough.com/
also have u looked on the recent thread here
BETRAYAL..
WHERE I SAID I THINK THE WORSE BETRAYAL IS BY THAT OF A MOTHER
-
Thanks Mike. I am the one that put that thread.
-
Hi Lupita,
I am going to jump in here – I hope that that is OK.
You asked
They do not know the damage they do. Would we punish a blind man for stepping on our toes? Would we punish a deaf person for not answering a question?
If he steps on your toes once or twice, I would have to say no you do not punish the man who cannot see. If, after advising him where your toes are, he continues to step on them, then I think you have every right to remove your toes from where he has access to them. Do you punish him, not necessarily – you just protect your toes.
I think Jeffery Dahmer had a mental illness, he was aware of the damage he did, but could not stop himself. I don’t think that his mental illness gave him the right to keep torturing and eating people and I would punish him for his action (not to mention that if I was aware of what he was, I would make sure I was never in his vicinity).
Are N parents as bad a Jeffery Dahmer? Not necessarily. Are their actions worse than someone who cannot see stepping on your toes? Most likely.
I sort of equate narcissists to knife wielding people who are eyesight and hearing impaired combined. Just because they cannot see or hear, are you required to stay in their presence and risk being stabbed? No. If you choose to stay in their presence because you cannot bring yourself to leave them in the face of their impairment, then you are well within your rights to get some body armor to protect yourself from the knife. In other words, it is ok to mentally divorce from them if it is important, right now, not to physically divorce them.
Does this make any sense?
I went NC last year. No matter how many times I asked her to stop stepping on my toes and to stop stabbing me with that knife – she couldn’t/wouldn’t do it. For whatever reason, she doesn’t have it in her. I could accept (not respect – thank you Hops) that, and continue to have her in my life if she would have stopped treating me badly. She couldn’t. It was at the point where I finally realized how much damage she was doing. My toes were permanently flat, and it was impairing my ability to walk through life, take care of myself, and take care of my family.
I still struggle with it sometimes, but ultimately I did not leave my mother. I never really had a mother. I had a needy incubator. Yes, I was provided with food, clothes, and a roof over my head, but I was never given necessary tools to be a whole and functioning adult. Instead of living a happy, fulfilling life, a struggle with a lot anxiety, PTSD, poor self-image. …..
You have a son. What would you tell him if instead of having you (a wonderful mother), he had your mother as a mother? Would you tell him he is obligated to stay with her?
The societal taboo of leaving a mother is a very difficult one to deal with. I sometimes wonder if we are the forerunners of a change in society. When I was a child, child abuse wasn’t a household word (and I am taking about physical/sexual abuse). It wasn’t until the late 70’s/early 80’s (I think), where the overt types of child abuse became common knowledge. I think this evolution is still occurring – and now it is moving towards the more silent types of abuse – emotional abuse and neglect (in my opinion - some of the worst types of abuse). Right now, it seems to me that general society is still in the dark ages regarding this type of abuse.
Do you remember when it was taboo to divorce? Women who divorced their husbands were shunned by society. Instead of having a name - they became "that divorced woman." Because of societal norms, they thought that they did not have a choice, and stayed in toxic relationships because society dictated this. Child emotional abuse and neglect is a recognized syndrome, but I think that society in general does not realize how pervasive it is – and how damaging. Right now, in this time and place, it is considered taboo to leave your mother. Sometimes I think of myself as that “divorced child.” Maybe 20 or 30 years down the road, as the ramifications of childhood emotional abuse and neglect become more well known, societal norms will catch up with us, and divorcing a parent will be accepted – just as divorcing a spouse is now accepted. I am hoping that through sites like these, awareness will increase, and instead of it being taboo to divorce a parent, it will be taboo to emotionally abuse and neglect a child. Maybe then the cycle of abuse will truly stop.
It is very hard. I was in your situation last year. I understand completely where you are – my mind circled for weeks wrestling with this decision - and there is no easy answer.
As an aside, I read in another post that you don’t think you are strong. Lupita - please don’t doubt your strength. I see such a tremendous amount of strength in you. It is so clear that you love your son. You have sacrificed a lot for him, and did it willingly and with his well being in your heart. You figured this out on your own, without a loving or nurturing mother to guide your steps. You walked away from an abusive husband, recreated your life, and made the world a good place for your son. This takes tremendous strength after having been raised by an N.
I am thinking of you as you undergo your upcoming surgery. Surgery is difficult by itself; to have it compounded by an N is frightening. Please know that, at the least in this difficult time, you have every right to think of yourself first and to put your mother on the back burner. Do whatever you have to do to take care of yourself – regardless of how it will affect your mother. Heal, regain your strength, and then tackle the N problem.
((((((Sending you hugs, energy, and prayers))))))))
Peace
-
probably you get an N husband when you have an N mother
For myself, I have to admit that I have patterned some of my own harsh behavior and my own anger after my N mother. She and I used to battle endlessly. She just seemed to do one irrational thing after another, and my own life seemed to be very unhappy as a result.
Eventually, N mother had me seen by a shrink at the age of about 14, because I became so upset with her tactics that one day in the middle of one of our screaming matches I took two knives out of a drawer, pointed one at myself and one at her, and told her that if she didn't leave me alone I was going to kill both of us.
The shrink saw me for a number of months and then concluded that I needed to go away to prep school to get AWAY from her. She said it exactly that way. I remember that she didn't say that she thought that my mother and I should not be together. She said that I needed to get AWAY from her. I only recently became aware that N mother had NO idea HOW I had come up with the prep school idea. She was surprised to learn that it had been the shrink's idea. Can you imagine? Your own youngster raising the topic of going away to school and you're so self -absorbed that you don't even inquire about where she got that idea? All along I thought the shrink must have talked to Mom first. Nope. She just took care of her patient (me), and said nothing to N mother. OMG.
Now, I see some of N mother's rage in myself. The genetic component perhaps, or the environment. I certainly can't say. All I know if that I don't seem to get angry for the same reasons as H with his N tendencies (NT). He cannot stand having anybody tell him he's wrong, whereas I can. BUT if somebody pushes me, and H often does as he insists on things that are pure BS, I eventually get angry in a very N way. I break things. I feel compelled to do it. He says something like, "I have a very good reason to be angry. You make too big a deal out of this." I explain that all I'm asking is that he tell me if he has to do something other than what we have agreed upon in a project, so that I will know that he was tracking with me, but had to make a change for some reason. Making the change is okay. Just tell me about it, because otherwise I get nervous that maybe we weren't tracking, and our not tracking can lead to arguments. He keeps raging. So he's raging about my ding something to avoid his rage. I send him off to sleep in the guest room, but not without a recap. I tell him he's raging about my doing something to avoid his rage. I tell him I'm very worried about him, because I expect him to crash and burn once he changes jobs. I tell him that I hope he dies in his sleep. He think s that everything he has ever done or said was fine. I feel bad for being such a bitch. Having been in the correct in the original argument gives me NO right to talk like that. But he just pushes me and pushes me. I sound like him. She pushes me and pushes me.
Ahhhhhh! Is my head going to explode or what? I wish it would! Better yet, his should explode. I would be happy to have him gone! I'm right back to being the little girl with two knives, one pointed at the N, and one pointed at herself. I feel so angry and frustrated. I have to break something. Where is something of his? There! A pair of pants that he wants me to sew a button on. Rip! Rip! Rip! Rip!!! They are shredded. I feel better. I won't be sewing that button on for him.
By morning I am aware that my N mother's rage, annoyance, and indifference rubbed off on me. I am indifferent to his priorities when they interfere with my workalholic tendencies. I am exhibiting numerous N-like behaviors, directed at my H with NT. The T that said he has NT said I had a little bit of N and a little bit of OCD. He said that is was nothing significant. Pretty "normal" whatever that is. I had only gone as far as the part about believing that I'm usually (NOT always) right, and I'm pretty great. I am usually right. I wait until I have enough info to form an opinion, and I am well aware of what I don't know. As for pretty great, well most people seem to think so, H's occasional anger-driven pronouncements to the contrary notwithstanding. The thing is, I may not reason like an N. But when attacked by an N, I counterattack like a Super N. I spew hatered, insults, condemnation, and most of all rage.
I have broken almost everything that H owned when we met. I always thought it was about his preference for his late wife (I broke things that spoke of her because it hurt so badly to be compaired unfavorably with another woman, and especially one whom others describe as weak and depressed. But now I see that the source of our problems had more to do with his being so adamant about everything, never yielding to logic, in other words having NT. Then to compound it even more, he appeared to be a sexist pig, the way he kept trying to squelch my ideas, and shut me up, and THAT was something that my N mother had taught me not to tolerate. She's a serious feminist. I could not believe the way my H used to talk to me "You should do this." "I'm was just giving you a correction" (of my way of being). He wanted "obey" in my wedding vows to him... NOT!
I think that he was being very N and trying to stop me from acting like my N mother. OMG.
I feel like I'm opening up one of those wooden dolls from Russia that has another doll inside, and another, and another. I will have to sleep on this in order to make any sense out of this, if that is possible at all.
So many of us with N mothers married men with N issues. Have you been down this road? Realizing that when logical discussions break down with your NH (as they often do), you're flaring your N mother's kind of rage on your NH?
-
probably you get an N husband when you have an N mother
For myself, I have to admit that I have patterned some of my own harsh behavior and my own anger after my N mother. She and I used to battle endlessly. She just seemed to do one irrational thing after another, and my own life seemed to be very unhappy as a result.
Eventually, N mother had me seen by a shrink at the age of about 14, because I became so upset with her tactics that one day in the middle of one of our screaming matches I took two knives out of a drawer, pointed one at myself and one at her, and told her that if she didn't leave me alone I was going to kill both of us.
The shrink saw me for a number of months and then concluded that I needed to go away to prep school to get AWAY from her. She said it exactly that way. I remember that she didn't say that she thought that my mother and I should not be together. She said that I needed to get AWAY from her. I only recently became aware that N mother had NO idea HOW I had come up with the prep school idea. She was surprised to learn that it had been the shrink's idea. Can you imagine? Your own youngster raising the topic of going away to school and you're so self -absorbed that you don't even inquire about where she got that idea? All along I thought the shrink must have talked to Mom first. Nope. She just took care of her patient (me), and said nothing to N mother. OMG.
Now, I see some of N mother's rage in myself. The genetic component perhaps, or the environment. I certainly can't say. All I know if that I don't seem to get angry for the same reasons as H with his N tendencies (NT). He cannot stand having anybody tell him he's wrong, whereas I can. BUT if somebody pushes me, and H often does as he insists on things that are pure BS, I eventually get angry in a very N way. I break things. I feel compelled to do it. He says something like, "I have a very good reason to be angry. You make too big a deal out of this." I explain that all I'm asking is that he tell me if he has to do something other than what we have agreed upon in a project, so that I will know that he was tracking with me, but had to make a change for some reason. Making the change is okay. Just tell me about it, because otherwise I get nervous that maybe we weren't tracking, and our not tracking can lead to arguments. He keeps raging. So he's raging about my ding something to avoid his rage. I send him off to sleep in the guest room, but not without a recap. I tell him he's raging about my doing something to avoid his rage. I tell him I'm very worried about him, because I expect him to crash and burn once he changes jobs. I tell him that I hope he dies in his sleep. He think s that everything he has ever done or said was fine. I feel bad for being such a bitch. Having been in the right in the original argument gives my right to talk like that. But he just pushes me and pushes me. I sound like him. She pushes me and pushes me.
Ahhhhhh! Is my head going to explode or what? I wish it would! Better yet, his should explode. I would be happy to have him gone! I'm right back to being the little girl with two knives, one pointed at the N, and one pointed at herself. I feel so angry and frustrated. I have to break something. Where is something of his? There! A pair of pants that he wants me to sew a button on. Rip! Rip! Rip! Rip!!! They are shredded. I feel better. I won't be sewing that button on for him.
By morning I am aware that my N mother's rage, annoyance, and indifference rubbed off on me. I am indifferent to his priorities when they interfere with my workalholic tendencies. I am exhibiting numerous N-like behaviors, directed at my H with NT. The T that said he has NT said I had a little bit of N and a little bit of OCD. He said that is was nothing significant. Pretty "normal" whatever that is. I had only gone as far as the part about believing that I'm usually (NOT always) right, and I'm pretty great. I am usually right. I wait until I have enough info to form an opinion, and I am well aware of what I don't know. As for pretty great, well most people seem to think so, H's occasional anger-driven pronouncements to the contrary notwithstanding. The thing is, I may not reason like an N. But when attacked by an N, I counterattack like a Super N. I spew hatered, insults, condemnation, and most of all rage.
I have broken almost everything that H owned when we met. I always thought it was about his preference for his late wife (I broke things that spoke of her because it hurt so badly to be compaired unfavorably with another woman, and especially one whom others describe as weak and depressed. But now I see that the source of our problems had more to do with his being so adamant about everything, never yielding to logic, in other words having NT. Then to compound it even more, he appeared to be a sexist pig, the way he kept trying to squelch my ideas, and shut me up, and THAT was something that my N mother had taught me not to tolerate. She's a serious feminist. I could not believe the way my H used to talk to me "You should do this." "I'm was just giving you a correction" (of my way of being). He wanted "obey" in my wedding vows to him... NOT!
I think that he was being very N and trying to stop me from acting like my N mother. OMG.
I feel like I'm opening up one of those wooden dolls from Russia that has another doll inside, and another, and another. I will have to sleep on this in order to make any sense out of this, if that is possible at all.
So many of us with N mothers married men with N issues. Have you been down this road? Realizing that when logical discussions break down with your NH (as they often do), you're flaring your N mother's kind of rage on your NH?
hi confounded...
some stuff here on rage that you might find insightful..
maybe u have come across it before ..it has been mentioned before in this forum
namely npa theory of types by benis...
here is the main site url... http://www.npatheory.com/
here is a paste of a section rage
Traits of narcissism (N), perfectionism (P) and aggression (A)
Karen Horney advanced the concept that at maturity there exist at least three expansive character types, namely the "narcissistic", the "perfectionistic" and the "arrogant-vindictive".[4] Extending these ideas, the NPA model posits that the human character rests primarily on the existence of three major traits: narcissism (N), perfectionism (P) and aggression (A). Each of these traits is assumed to exist as the expression of a single major pleiotropic gene. Horney considered that the traits have environmental origins, being the result of an individual's desperate search for dominance in the context of a stifling upbringing.[5] The NPA model -- in ascribing the traits to genetic origins -- emphasizes biological attributes associated with the traits.
Aggression
The behavioral trait of aggression is acknowledged to be the most labile of the three.[6] The stereotypic acts associated with this trait involve body posturing, gestures, and eye contact of intimidation and deference, with individuals having this trait continually competing with each other on a scale of dominance and submission. The trait of aggression corresponds to a striving for power over one's environment, hence it is one main component of competitiveness in social relations, or ambition. In a pejorative connotation the trait may reveal itself in the context of sadism or sadomasochism. The facial expression is non-sanguine, i.e., tending toward sallowness or pallor in individuals of light skin color. The hallmark of the trait of aggression is a mass discharge of the sympathetic nervous system: the "fight or flight" response or the aggressive-vindictive rage. During the expression of this rage, the facial complexion of pallor is accentuated.
Narcissism
The trait of narcissism is noted to be less labile than that of aggression (where individuals may be constantly altering their character states on a scale of dominance and submission).[6] The stereotypic acts associated with the trait include self-flaunting body posturing, expansive arm gestures, bowing, instinctive self-adornment, and a natural attraction to the limelight of personal recognition. Individuals having only this trait (of the three) are competitive but non-aggressive in their strivings for recognition. The trait corresponds to a striving for glory in one's environment, representing the second main component of human ambition. In a pejorative connotation, the unbridled trait of narcissism may reveal itself in the context of conceit, exhibitionism, vanity or messianism. An associated facial expression includes the radiant gingival smile (broadly exposing the gums and teeth). The facial complexion in individuals of light skin color tends toward blood-red or ruddy. Hallmarks of the trait include blushing, flushing, and a mass discharge of the parasympathetic nervous system: the narcissistic rage of defense and withdrawal. During expression of this rage the normally sanguine complexion becomes even more florid.
Perfectionism
The trait of perfectionism in the NPA model is not a basic drive of ambition and is not associated with a rage reaction.[6] Rather it is a mediator of the unbridled drives of aggression and/or narcissism. The stereotypic acts associated with the trait of perfectionism are obsessiveness, compulsiveness, repetition, and the maintenance of neatness, order and symmetry. A clue to the nature of the trait lies in the compulsive, repetitive mannerisms of autistic children and some adult schizophrenic individuals. The behavioral pattern is often ritualistic and the speech characterized by echolalia. It is posited that such autistic and schizophrenic individuals are those in whom the two components of ambition, i.e. aggression and narcissism, have been suppressed by genetic or environmental factors, either congenitally, in childhood, or after maturity, thus revealing in the individual a primitive state of perfectionism.
Character types
The notion that humans exhibit only a limited number of discrete character types can be traced back to the time of the ancient Greeks, in particular to the theory of humors (blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm). The NPA model attempts to relate genetic NPA types to these character types of antiquity, as well as to the classic personality disorders of modern psychiatry.
I FOUND A LOT OF INTERESTING INSIGHTS BUT ALSO FIND THINGS I THINK HE CONCEPTUALIZES INCORRECTLY
-
My ex is a N. My 17 y.o. son tonight took out clean laundry from the dryer and threw it on the dirty floor(basement), so he could put his clothes in the dryer.He just left it there, never even thought to fold it or put it in the table for me to fold later. He didn't even realize that he had done something wrong. These were clothes that I had washed and dryed and didn't get to fold yet. It terrifies me to think that he is this inconsiderate, as it resonates with the way his father acted. Total disregard for anyone else. I got mad and took his clean dry clothes out of he dryer and took them to his room and scattered them all over is floor. I wanted to make a point.He was really mad, but the scary thing was he didn't get the point when I explained that I felt disrespected by the way he had acted. Who did he think would have to pick up that laundry that he threw on the dirty basement floor? he looked at me blankly. He didn't think about it, he just had to dry his clothes. I was taking it "too personally" It is "just laundry". I fear that he is becoming a N as well. he doesn't ever consider somebody elses' feelings.He is spending more time around his dad because dad is giving his $$$.His dad badmouths me, I'm too emotional, too spiritual, he is the beautiful one, with the beautiful rich, fast lane life. I don't know where the boy I raised has gone. I fear I'll never see him again.My son won't see a therapist. I want him to learn feelings. My ex left when my son was 14, ready to start high school. he was devastated. he quit feeling after that. he only does happy and angry. Sad hurts too much, He was sad for 2 weeks and couldn't stand it so he started using drugs and just got mad. he has seen therapists but he won't open up. I just keep trying to teach him right and wrong, and how to be comsiderate. ANy suggestions?
-
Oh McGirl. Welcome.
I do not have useful advice,
but I too will be glad to read...
It may be that he must wait
for his own life blows to awaken him.
You'll find much wisdom here.
Hopalong
-
Today is Monday. My mom is going back home on Wednesday. My surgery is postpone till the middle of June, since it is an elective surgery. I feel guilty and sad. I was feeling wonderful before she came. Miss Universe was nothing compared to me. I felt skinny and powerful. I was happy. After ten days with my other I feel extremely depressed, I am not a good daughter, and I cannot compensate my mother ofr all the things she did for me.
The worst, she is sad too. My mother is not a bad person. I feel very bad that I have said bad things about her in here. I regret I did. Hope that God will not punish me for betraying my mother the way I have. i feel so guilty, so sad, I don't want her to go. I really wish that she did not make me sad in purpose.
Now I know why i feel so bad when my students disrespect me. Now I know why I feel so bad when a person gives me a look for any reason.
Now I know why I feel that nobody loves me, feel so lonely, it feels so lonely.
-
lup: MY LOVE TO YOU! There is nothing worse that regret. It is great that you felt so skinny-think on those positive thoughts and try to keep those feelings in your heart. You have done well to recognize your automatic responses to disrespect and dirty looks-now if you can gain some power by understanding those things you can use that to not take things as personally as you once did.
-
Dear Friends,
There is so much wonderful wisdom in this thread and on this web site. People share their insights and I have learned so much and have been helped so much.
I think one of the reasons (maybe the main reason) we are all here posting or reading this web site is because we are so baffled by N behavior and the N behavior has reduced our quality of life and has often ruined our happiness.
Based on what I've learned, the "experts" (psychologists and psychiatrists) disagree about the cause of Nism. The experts give us insights to Nism, but few solutions.
One solution I have found and want to share is this: We cannot change the behavior or thinking of other people (especially Ns). Only the person themself can decide that THEY want to change THEMSELF. Accepting these ideas has brought me great peace of mind and has helped me deal with Ns.
I think that people who had N parents believe that they CAN change the behavior & thinking of another person; ( I think that the idea that someone can change the behavior & thinking of another person is very Nish because it shows that someone wants to control the other person and this need to control others is very Nish).
So, once we accept that we cannot change the behavior & thinking of another person (such as an N), we have to accept the REALITY that they are the way they are and they will not change UNLESS THEY THEMSELF WANT TO CHANGE.
Once we accept that we cannot change the behavior & thinking of another person, we learn to protect ourselves from that person (the N) by putting up boundaries to protect ourselves.
The boundaries we put up vary according to the situation and the N: perhaps we see or speak to the N less frequently, or we go "no contact" or we divorce the N spouse.
The point is that WE do have power is the relationship. By accepting that we cannot change the N and using boundaries, we no longer have to be the victims of the N. We no longer have to give our power to the N so that the N can drive us crazy or make us miserable.
These ideas seem simple to undertsand, but can be difficult to put into action. But, I keep trying and it has helped me.
With love,
Sally
-
He says that he is acting 'good'. Well, he is acting like someone should act. However, he does not get that I do not feel any closeness to him.He is angry that I am not forgiving and want to 'make it work"
I feel like he is acting"good' because he has no choice. I still don't feel like I can trust him. I don't feel like he has my "back". He just "can't get away with it anymore".
He says that he is sorry. I think that he is. However, if I don't feel like I can rely that he "has my back."I guess that i feel, down deep, that he is still the enemy,but now with a smile. It still feels like he wants to destroy me like my mother does.. It is a visceral thing. I can't just be weal and real with him or he will see it as 'Now I can get her."..."The ball is in your court".In other words, he is being good now so it's my fault if we don't have a good relationship.
he went away over night . I feel so great when he is not here,like a trip to Hawaii. Now, he is coming home and a depression is coming over me
Ami,
I completely understand how you feel. It's a horrible to feel that the person you thought you "love" doesn't have your back and you dread being with them. Yes, I know this feeling.
The only advise I have is to do intensive therapy with a therapist who understands you. You must look at your feelings with a therapist and then you can understand how you really feel and what you want to do. I think you have got to ascertain the bare bone of your feelings.
Love,
Sally
-
Thank you dear nice people of the board. Thank you for so much wisdom. I will think about it and digest it slowly. Can't think clearly now. Too sad. Need some time. God bless you.
-
Thanks to CB123, Ami and Hopalong for your thoughts. I can see that this is a place where I will find wisdom and comfort.
I now feel that I should not have thrown my son's clothes on the floor. I liked your way better, CB123, and I will think of you if I have a similar experience soon......I did get pretty mad. I agree that sometimes I am so afraid that my son is becoming his father that I lose perspective and my emotions zing out of control. I guess it may not be my 17 acting like N, but N never stopped acting like a teenager(and teenagers are pretty naturally self centered).
You asked why N said I was too spiritual- this is because he is an atheist and he sees faith as a weakness. He wants his 3 sons to reflect him only, so he openly discourages belief in a God, and encourages only the activities and topics that he is interested in- weightlifting, skiing, being a republican and living an elite life. Anything else, he ridicules, so they act like they don't like it either. He constantly belittles anybody who is heavy or smokes or is religious or a democrat or environmentalist and on and on, like he is so superior. It tears me apart. After they spend a weekend with him(every other) they come home surly with a condescending attitude toward me. I breaks my heart. Their dad (N) has an air of excitement around him constantly(I felt chaos). He creates it, he was happiest when there was a new development on TV, even if it was tragedy, because he gets all revved up. That's how he keeps the kids, constantly revved.And demanding the best. They always have to have the best meals, like he is always asking them what I cook for them. He puts me down if I make sloppy joes or tacos- his kids should be eating steak and king crab!
He is a doctor. He ran off with a married chickie that he worked with, 15 years younger than him. We had been married for 16 years. I had just finished 6 months of chemo, and my hair was about 1-1/2 inches long when he left. I really had no idea of anything wrong, I thought we were happily married. I was counting on him for support. I thought he was my best friend. I was away for the weekend with the boys and when we came home he was gone. He actually told my boys that they would get over it in 2 weeks. He was so cold to me from that moment on. Like night and day. He just flipped off the switch in his brain with my name on it. It has been the single most devastating loss in my life. That was 3 years ago and we are still in the process of divorcing. That is really hard. He is so sneaky and calculating and manipulative that it has been really hard on me.I don't know if he changed or if he was always that way and I just didn't see it.
But anyway, now I am involved with another man. This man is kind, calm, loves to laugh and he is spiritual. He likes my sons and they like him. This has shown me how very much I was missing in my marriage. I can remember telling N how scared I was on a night before a CT scan,a nd he would say a very flat "everything will be OK" and then he would go right to sleep. I can call my current boyfriend at 2 am, and he would talk to me for hours if I was afraid. I would never have dreamt of waking N, he would have been so mean.
But my greatest fear is that my sons will emulate their dad. His life is glamorous. He has $$$$. My 17 yr old son had a job, and bought a used car, N told him to quit, that he didn't have to work, and bought him a brand new SUV, and since it was the same color as his hummer, he pulled it up alongside and took a photo, as if to say" see, you are like me!". It made me feel physically ill. I just keep trying to instill some values in them, and hoping something sticks. I have nightmarish thoughts sometimes that they will grow up and spend a lot of time with him because he will have a retirement home in Florida on a beach, and he will take them out west to ski and there will be no time left to hang out with me. I know they love me, but I'm not real glitzy. I can't compete with "the beautiful people".
-
(((((((((((((((((((((((awwwww McGirl)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
What a story. I am so embroiled now with my anger is at my daughter, but this is a place for all to say all and have support.
I wish you well. I'm SO happy you have a boy friend.!!
xx
Izzy
-
McG,
You've been their mother their whole lives.
And you can't be wiped out by his superficiality.
There may be times, even long stretches, when they seem lost to his vapid values.
But when real life kicks in, or they lose someone they love, or face real-world disappointment,
they'll remember where the real-world love is, where the kindness is.
Don't despair. Just keep loving them, stick up for yourself, and keep teaching your values.
You are not invisible and your mothering hasn't been wasted.
Courage,
Hops
-
Thanks Izzy and Hops,
I will fight the good fight for my sons.
N-exH's mother was an N. She was difficult, very difficult. With a glance she could wither N-exH. Only in illness did she seem to mellow. That is when we were able to connect, after years and years of her trying to make me uncomfortable constantly. I must say she became kind, and dropped her hard edge. She became "human" with vulnerability and pain. It is very sad that it took such extreme circumstances, but it did. For those posting with N mothers, I hope it doesn't take such extremes, but even though it did in my mother in law's case, it still was very healing to our relationship.
-
Hi guys,
Thanks again for the support and wisdom. I am grateful.
Tonight I had a discussion with 17 yr. old son. The way he talks it sounds as though he hates women. He was talking about how all the girls at school are so stupid and PMS is truly only present in 5% of women and how the girls are always so bitchy and they use that as an excuse and they don't know anything blah blah blah. I said , gee, it sounds like you don't like women. He said are you saying I'm gay, and i said "of course not, I just wonder why you often have negative experiences with women. Maybe you come off so hard lined"(they all talk politics and religion, in which he has adopted N-exH's views-No God, and democrats are mentally deficient)"that you get a defensive response. Try treating the girls you talk to with kindness and respect. Be open and don't put down their views" I tried to use examples of how I use kindness at my job to diffuse tension and anger and he said "that is because when you are kind to patients then they can feel like a victim, and they all want to be a victim. I said no, they feel considered and regarded and we all like to be regarded. He said he didn't need to feel regarded, he just won't put up with that attitude, he'll give it right back. I explained that something I just read talked about how chronic complainers are actually making themselves a victim of all of the people around them that aren't smart enough or thin enough or drive well enough etc. I told him to be careful that he isn't being a victim himsef.
Ughhh. I felt like my N-exH was in the room. I think he has been brainwashing the boys(duh). I know he has. My 17 said that his dad said "If a girl ever wants to get married, run the other way as fast as you can" That really angers me, because N-exH can take credit for ruining his own life. He had affairs, he left the marriage, he wanted what he got, now why won't he just shut up and be happy???What kind of a man tells his son that? The poor kid! He is trying to set 17 up for a life of what? No meaninful intimate relationship? NO family? I just don't get it. I was a good and kind wife and mother. It hurts me to see my son have his head loaded up with this garbage.
You asked, CB. about my health.So far, so good. My goal has been to live long enough for all 3 sons to graduate high school.I have 5 more years to reach that goal and then I'll want to add 4 more to see the youngest graduate from college. Then hopefully I'll have many other goals of my own to reach for. I had stage 3 ovarian cancer and my 4 year anniversary is coming up next week, June 6th! It has been so hard, and I would never have believed I would live to see 4 more birthdays!!! I never get sad about aging! To me each birthday is a gift from God!! Bring it on!
My boyfriend sat and rubbed my feet for an hour tonight. I had an 11 hour day at work and they hurt. I am so very blessed to now have a nurturing man. Did you ever hear that song"God blessed the broken road to you"? That is my life. I have been blessed to have Nex-H say "see ya", even though it was painful. I know that it has hurt the kids tremendously, and their lives are for ever altered, but now I have a glimmer of a hope that boyfriend and others can model better male behavior than N-exH and all of heavy drinking rich buddies. I have been disposed of by N-exH, but by that I have been truly freed.
I am so touched by this board and the caring that i feel and see here.
Hugs,
McGirl
-
Ami,
I wanted to send you this prayer because you were talking about fearing being alone. I felt so alone a lot in the last few years and I saw this at a shop and bought it to hang in my bedroom.It is by Colom-cille, who was a Celt, he may have even been a saint, I'm not sure:
"Alone with none but Thee my God, I journey on my way.
What need I fear when Thou art near, Oh King of night and day!
More safe am I within Thy hand than if a host did round me stand"
You are so right when you say we are never alone........
Peace to you,
McGirl
-
Dear Ami,
I am sorry to hear what you have gone through and continue to go through. It is difficult. It seems that an inordinate number of physicians are Ns. I am not sure if N's seek out that profession or if they may have a tendency because of N parents to be pushed toward that type of earning power, or prestige. Because a son or daughter who is in any high earning job brings a type of power to the parents as well. I always knew that my N-ex was cocky and a bit arrogant, but he was so very smart and good at what he did that I
accepted it. I was proud of him.But the power that he developed over his years in practice(20yrs) really seemed to corrupt his soul. Money, power, women throwing themselves at his feet, all of this was more than he could handle. Or maybe it was just what he wanted.
I did not have N parents. My Dad was wonderful, a welder in a steel mill, and my Mom is wonderful too. They were good and kind and wanted me to succeed and be happy. They were happily married for 47 years when Dad died. Mom is still supporting me in any way she can. (She brought dinner over tonight-she's 77!)
I ended up with my N-ex because he was handsome and charming and I was seduced by his intellect, as well as his ability to play and laugh and we really hit it off. The room ws alive when he was in it.We were happy ( I was happy the whole time) rather he was happy until the kids came and our lives changed. We used to go out a lot and party and we did alot of traveling. Life changed and by the 3rd kid, he wasn't having as much fun. I think that was it. He couldn't recenter his life to make the kids a part of a new whole. He still wanted the late nights at the bars and the same life, just with kids. I didn't like late nights or partying anymore because I had early mornings with little ones. I really expected that he would also change in that way,and he did not at all.He gets 14 weeks vacation a year and always wanted to travel, but the kids were in school. We basically cramped his style. I have no doubt that he loves his sons very much, as much as he knows how. He just doesn't understand anything about the sacrifices that parents make for their kids. For example, my son had a percussion solo in 8th grade.N-ex refused to go. He shamed my son into dropping out of the band because N-ex didn't approve. Not manly to be in the band. He told me in front of my son that he wasn't going because I pushed my son into band. While I did require him to take an instrument, I felt that N-ex did a terrible disservice to our son by refusing to go. N-ex looked at my son and said do you care if I go or not, and my son said NO, but I could see the hurt and confusion on his face. I almost cried when we got there, all the families were videotaping and so proud,and my jerk N is at home watching the news. I think N wanted to blame his bad behavior on me so he turned it into"you made him play in the band", therefore you are bad not me. Meanwhile my son was also in a rock band and was very talented.
My N was really always nice to me until he decided he was done, and he moved on with the ultrasound tech. I think he was with her for 2-3 years of our marriage, and that was when he started being cold and indifferent and downright mean to me. Prior to that he was not "in touch with his feminine side", but he was nice to me. Very generous and even considerate in some ways. Never emotional or expressive of feelings, but pleasant. His needs were always met so he was happy. When he was being so miserable I would ask him what was wrong and he would blame it on work.Meanwhile he was leading a double life.
I appreciate you saying what you said about being careful in marriage again. I doubt that I will ever marry again. I like having a boyfriend. I like having my own bathroom. I like sleeping alone a lot of nights. I stil have 3 sons at home. My boyfriend would like to marry as soon as I divorce, which is drawn out. But I told him I may never marry. I told him I like just having a boyfriend, albeit a very special boyfriend. He is a blacksmith and artist in steel. Very earthy. Likes to camp. N-ex wouldn't camp, too much "white trash" at the campgrounds.
How do you keep your boys from turning against you? I try very hard to never say anything bad about their dad as they get very defensive. They know the facts. When he first left and I then found out a week later about the girlfriend I told them. But I think he has told them all sorts of things about how I changed and he didn't feel the same and lots of people are unhappy but they don't have the courage to leave. (So now he is the courageous hero- the courageous hero that packed up and moved out while we were at the amusement park for the weekend[he doesn't do amusement parks either-"too much white trash"!]). I was so floored. He was at the house when we got home, and he said we needed to talk. I thought he was sick. I was so scared for him! And he tells me he moved out. He had been unhappy for 10 years! I was really in shock. We had sex 2 nights before, and had just came back from a trip to Arizona with the kids. It sure seemed like we had fun.
My N-ex was very mean also when anybody was sick. God forbid one of the kids got a sore throat! He would never yell or get loud. Just cold and dissapproving. Like you feel bad for having a sore throat because it makes him unhappy. When my kids stayed home sick from school, if we were playing a board game, as soon as they heard his car, they would jump on the couch and pull the blankets up to their chin and look very sick!And when I had chemo treatments he just ignored me. He went along and read the paper and went out to lunch and I sat there, and my wonderful girlfriends were always there for me to fill in the holes. Boyfriend would have held my hand, made me laugh, rubbed my back. My friends brought meals when I was sick. N -ex hated that. He only ate the best food, so how could he eat some "cassarole." One of the times that I stood up to him he said" call Mary and tell her to stop organizing these meals! I'm sick of it!" I said If you want her to stop, you call her. He never did. He had a way of trying to set me up as the bad guy. Some of his friends told me after he left that he would say that I was a bitch and never let hin do anything. That was so untrue, because I loved it when he left! It was my vacation when he was out of the house. The vibes were happy and light. He changed the air.
I've gone on for way to long, it just feels good to let it out. I may get a copy of Vaknin's book. I've not read it.
How old are your sons? Do they treat you in a condescending way? Does N?
Thanks for listening Ami,
Peace,
McGirl
-
ISITTO,
I'm going to make this brief as I have to go to bed so I can wake early in the morning to sell flowering onions at my concession stand.
First, I remember when you first came to V-board. Glad you stuck it out and found some help and a place to share.
Next, i want to say something in response to this general post.
A while ago, someone came on the board and mentioned something about "what if your husband or children knew that you were on here talking about them" well, now's my chance to let you all know that my counselor agreed with me that I married a person with definite N traits. He is not stuck at 2 yrs old as much as about maybe 4-6 and then sometimes in the teen years. He, too, when I ask him about behavior will look at me with a dumb look on his face and say "when was THIS? I don't remember." It makes me want to shake him.
I'm putting him and X and all dysfunctional people into the Lord's hands, cause honestly, I can't and don't want to deal with them anymore.
~L