Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on May 31, 2007, 09:36:11 PM
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I was reading Kelly's post and I realized this has been a big topic for me... and part of the reason I get so confused with this disorder. It does seem Ns do nice things at times and that they are almost not on an agenda.
When my mother started on anti depressants, for a while she would talk to me and say she loved me and she was proud of me. And it sounded like she meant it.
Once in a while she writes a nice letter or says a kind thing.
I almost wish she wouldn't do these things, because it just makes me more upset. I start to feel like I make it up... and then we get back to normal behavior. And, the truth is, I don't want her to be nice because I really just want to flat-out dislike her.
What is your take on this?????? Why do they do this sometimes?????
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*****CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** READ WITH CAUTION
it's part of gaslighting and fostering dependence. it keeps you off balance and gets you to doubt your own judgment. it creates false hope.
yes, i do think it's possible for an N to change. but: the indicator of true change in an N is that they realize they've been N, and they're absolutely appalled, horrified, mortified by what they have been and done, and THEY ARE WILLING TO FACE THAT AND BEAR IT. If they've reached this point, then their niceness can be regarded as the making of amends, because there is less likely to be an ulterior motive behind it.
Nicey-nice from an N, without that moment of truth and the willingness to face themselves for what they are, is nothing more than bait.
*****CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** READ WITH CAUTION
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I wish I understood what gas lighting means-can you explain it? You are right about being off balance-I do not know what to think. She has been known to throw me a crumb-but this is a big crumb-it could be a way for her to get me to stop looking for jobs-that would make sense.
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OMG KELLY THAT'S IT THAT'S IT!
She's trying to get you to quit looking for another job! That's it!!!!!!!!!!
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Kelly, here is a link to a super post by Dazed1. When you get this post on screen, do a search for the word 'gaslighting' on the page. Excellent description of exactly what it is...
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=3876.msg62027#msg62027
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CB, you are a drink of cool water for the fevered brain.
God gets the credit and he also gets to figure out the other person's character. All I do is say "thanks".
You have SO much grace and maturity, for a person who is so recently out of the NNNNNuclear crucible.
My admiration deepens and I'm piling it on with a shovel for REAL.
Hops
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This is an interesting topic. Why are they nice? I find myself thinking about HOW they are nice. In my experience, they tend to perform acts of service. They DO things. I think that they do this in order to try to keep things on an even keel, and feel good about themselves. I realize that each person is different, and even each N is different.
Some people are not N'ish unless they are backed into a particular corner that triggers them--and then they go for the throat. The fact that they only do it occasionally doesn't make them less dangerous.
My H is diagnosed with N tendencies, not full-blown NPD. He does all sorts of things for me. Brings me OJ and coffee often in the mornings. Makes meals lots of the time. Cleans up. Does lots of things around the house and yard. So his actions are very kind, much of the time.
But his words... Horrible. He will actually DO all these things for me, or us (the house and yard items), and then COMPLAIN about it and try to make me feel bad. I have told him this makes no sense. I say that if he does all these things, and then complains endlessly, it's as if he did nothing. The pleasure of having his help is negated by the unpleasantness of his griping. It's a wash. Just as if he had done nothing. I don't think that he is able to stop himself from complaining.
You all are really helping me. I don't mix it up with him anymore. In an argument, he becomes irrational to the point where I have ask him if he's being serious or joking. I have lived most of my life around lawyers, and arguments are not a reason to get all worked up, IMO. You just present your best case, and in the end somebody stands corrected, or else you have to agree to disagree. But if you get all furious and stupid, make absurd generalizations, etc., you forfeit. Loser. Say that to my H, and you can make him super-angry. It's like pushing a button and watching him dance. But I have stopped doing that. I have stopped arguing with him. Thank you.
It's very weird because, as noted elsewhere, they really want respect. But their tactics are so bizare that over a period of time they lose the respect that they had. They inadvertently work against their own objectives. I think they're nice to try to do something to gain back some ground, having lost so much in ways that they really can't figure out. It must be so strange, living in a total of such total denial. I watched our T listen to H talk the other day. The T's mouth was hanging open in astonishment, and he's one of those super-T's that are hard to get in to see. He has that kind of background where they understand really odd motivations, like the pros on TV crime dramas that can tell you all about the criminal who would do a certain crime. H was astounding our super-T. But H would say it didn't happen that way. He'd say that's just the way I'm spinning it. Funny about denial. It is the ultimate defense, because nothing else matters.
I do feel sorry for H. Anyway, I'm trying to just appreciate the things he does that are nice, not argue with him, treat him as well as I can, and work on my own personal growth.
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CB, I grabbed a shovel too! I agree 100% with Hops!!!!!!!!!
Confounded,
You brought up SO MANY good points here, but I am too beat and scatterbrained to address them all. Yes... they do seem to work against themselves... and they are puzzled when they do something wrong. They just DON'T GET IT and they never will, I fear. If they do something nice, they tell everyone about it for ages (I can assure you an N didn't come up with Random Acts of Kindness)... And, like you pointed out... they complain so much about anything they do that it is not worth asking them to do anything. I am not sure when I realized I did this (long ago, maybe at 20), but I used to do things and then bitch about it. (Green, this goes back to N traits...). Someone pointed out to me (and I am so grateful they did and I HEARD what they said) that if you do something for someone, that's it. You do it, you did it, it's done. I never complain anymore. If I offered, that's that.
Thanks again for the posts (((((((((((((((((my good friends)))))))))))))))))
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Hi all,
I've had a different experience with N Niceness. Like almost martyrdom. Doing it as a victim, and not complaining per se,but getting grumpy and making everybody wish they hadn't asked for you to help. Almost as if to say, "see I never complain. I'm so above it all", but meanwhile you will never ask for their help again because you felt a palpable bad air in the room.
McGirl
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Well, I know what I experienced and what I experienced was that when XN was "nice" to me it was part of the grooming to set me up for another fall. Everything about them is in their own interest. The "niceness" causes confusion and they one starts doubting oneself...maybe they are not so bad.... maybe I misread something.... maybe I am too demanding. BULL, there is always a motive and it is always about themselves. THEY WANT SOMETHING FROM YOU.
BEWARE THE N'S NICENESS.
Axa
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I agree. It's easier to have the truth than to be gaslighted into doubting your feelings and reality.
I'd much rather be in full blown war, and know it, than be stabbed in the back by the one hand and soothed by the other hand of my N.
But that's the genius of gaslighting. Keeping nice people nice while they wage an underhanded war designed to tear us apart from the inside out.
And they don't give it a second thought. I don't know whether to truly pity them or be more horrified, if it's possible to be.
As long as they feel good and are getting what they like. As long as they feel they're not at risk for losing any small control.
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This thread is so interesting. It seems to me there is a big (but subtle) difference between:
1) a real N who is resentful and makes you wish you had never asked the N for help; they try to make it seem like they are doing you a huge favor with strings attached, martyrdom, creating bad air, etc.
and
2) someone with Nspots or some learned dysfunctional behavior (including yours truly here) who also stomp around resentful just because they were too weak/scared/voiceless to say, "you know what, I really just don't want to wash the dishes right now. I'm tired and need to take care of me right now."
#1 will likely never change, while #2 can learn if the light bulb of understanding goes off. It can be very hard to tell #1 and #2 apart without a lot of work.
Just my 2cents
Green
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I was reading Kelly's post and I realized this has been a big topic for me... and part of the reason I get so confused with this disorder. It does seem Ns do nice things at times and that they are almost not on an agenda.
This reminds me of saying I heard somewhere: Even Hitler reached down and petted a dog once in awhile. :)
I'm glad you brought this up because it's definitely been an issue for me. I have come to realize my dealings with my father consist of 100's of minor negative interactions, with an occasional positive gesture, such as a material gift. It's as if he's trying to make up for being an a-hole most of the time. My place in the game (along with the other members of the FOO) is to focus on the positive gestures and forget about the daily round of insults and abuses. It has been hard to see through the game, because most of the incidents with my father are minor. The problem is the sheer volume of small negative interactions and subtle abuses.
It may happen because all but the most dysfunctional people have some consciousness of what is going on. I suspect my father understands that the outcomes of his way of relating do not work, but he just doesn't quite see why, and for whatever reason can't control his day to day behavior.
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(I can assure you an N didn't come up with Random Acts of Kindness)
:lol: :lol:
Beth. You are a stitch!
thanks,
Hops
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This is such a relevant topic and I think it goes to the heart of having a relationship with an N (whether the N is your parent/love/spouse).
When they are nice, we get really confused and start wondering "what's going on?" "what's the N's motivation?". This is so sad: We can't just accept someone being nice or kind to us without feeling suspicious. Perhaps this suspicion is why I have such difficulties in my personal relationships: Why can't I just say "thank you" and not feel guilty or suspect that payback is due? My suspicion and guilt feelings are huge distractions and detriments to having a "normal" relationship.
But, maybe I'm being naieve? Isn't there always a payback? Am I asking for something for nothing?
Love,
Sally
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[CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** READ WITH CAUTION
it's part of gaslighting and fostering dependence. it keeps you off balance and gets you to doubt your own judgment. it creates false hope.
yes, i do think it's possible for an N to change. but: the indicator of true change in an N is that they realize they've been N, and they're absolutely appalled, horrified, mortified by what they have been and done, and THEY ARE WILLING TO FACE THAT AND BEAR IT. If they've reached this point, then their niceness can be regarded as the making of amends, because there is less likely to be an ulterior motive behind it.
Nicey-nice from an N, without that moment of truth and the willingness to face themselves for what they are, is nothing more than bait.
*****CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** *****CYNICISM***** READ WITH CAUTIO]
Dear Storm,
I just had to highlight this and say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU--- I needed that!!! Love
Ami
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This topic of gaslighting is monumental for me . I read that link by "dazed" and it was genius. I always wondered,'How did I lose myself? Why don't I trust my gut,my core,my emotions and my very being?" Well, this is the answer. My mother stole my core, either consciously or subconsciously. She sucked it out like an insect would suck out the insides of some prey.My mother tried to steal anything good, beautiful, kind, sweet,joyful,life giving and life esteeming in me.
.I have to think about what the Bible says about the devil(evil). He comes ONLY to steal,kill and destroy.
When I think about how my N mother has a radar on anything beautiful- what am I to conclude?There is something in her that just yearns to destroy all the beauty in your soul and all the beauty in your life. After they are done with you,you are a shell filled with poison.
I am starting to see myself-in my mind;s eye- before she stole my insides. It is a beautiful picture.
Love Ami
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Why are they nice? I find myself thinking about HOW they are nice. In my experience, they tend to perform acts of service. They DO things.
Today at work, the "junior to me co-worker who gets on my nerves" (though less and less as I am learning to disengage in a serious way, yeehoo) mentioned to one of the guys that she is cooking dinner for a friend tonight as part of some kind of service group. And my first thought was, wow, you don't do anything at all for anyone around here and, in fact, always expect each of us to finish all your tasks for you. How out of character for you to cook this dinner for someone else!
Then I remembered how the other day she made a point of asking what someone wanted in the coffee she was getting for whoever wanted it. And a few months ago at a restaurant get-together, she offered a round of drinks for the table first thing. Hmmmm. Methinks it's all about the show. All about making people believe she is a nice person and perhaps even making herself think she is a nice person. Making people believe she at least tries her best.
But when the majority of the time, 95% of the time, it's all about what we can do for her, well, I think that is the truth of the matter. A few coffees or a round of drinks doesn't buy it for me. Material generosity seems quite easy for these types. Real sweaty sacrifice for others is not even on their menu.
I'm very grateful that I'm learning to disengage from it as that seems to be the only recourse. They won't change or be controlled or be educated. Being able to really see it helps. It is a predictable pattern. "How are they nice?" is an excellent test.
Pennyplant
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((((Ami)))) yer welcome!
Pennyplant... yes. It's all about the show. Ns will expeNd huge amouNts of eNergy on image maiNteNance, but woN't lift a fiNger, as you poiNt out, to give real help wheN thiNgs get gritty.
Reminds me of a post surgical church experience. [Now there's a phrase!]. I had a partial hysterectomy, because I was so full of fibroids and they were growing so fast that I was headed for fatal renal failure due to crowding of the organs in my pelvic area. Yeah, that happens. "Benign" can kill you. After the surgery, I hemorrhaged and nearly bled to death. Then I got peritonitis because they wouldn't give me antibiotics [I requested them and was laughed at, literally. No surprise, they laughed at me when I told them I was hemorrhaging, too.]
So when I finally got home, after all this, I was weak as a kitten and white as a sheet, and god help me, the church ladies started calling.
And I had this conversation more than once, almost exactly the same one word for word:
'Hi Stormy, do you need anything?'
"Hi X, no, I"m doing OK."
"No groceries or anything?"
"No, I'm OK, I laid in stores before I went in for surgery, I've got everything I need."
"Anything from the drugstore? Anything I can do?"
"Well...." [long timid pause] "... you know, I had complications, and I'm pretty weak, so the place hasn't been vacuumed in about three weeks now... "
[Definite "sniff" sound.] "Oh. Well. I'll send the maid over."
"Uh... no, please don't do that. I don't know your maid, and I don't want a stranger coming in here when I'm this weak and helpless."
[Louder sniff.] "Well, I was just trying to help!" [followed by further expressions of annoyance and criticism, followed by me ending the conversation asap.]
All. About. The. Show. Not one of them had any real interest in helping me, and it came out clear as clear the minute I asked them to do something I actually needed, rather than something that would make a good photo op.
Not much bragging rights in vacuuming somebody's place, I guess.
Do I 'harbor resentment' about this? Not really. I haven't thought about it in ages. When I do think about it, I have no desire to 'get even' about it. Nothing to 'get even' about. I'm grateful for the lesson, because it taught me more about this type of phony than years of observation would have done.
Plus, there was Strange Mercy in it. I told my petsitter about the incident, and they were so appalled that they insisted on coming over on a weekend and 'doing' my whole place. I was so touched that I cried. And you better believe, they got a BIG whacking bonus... plus I insisted on replacing their truck tires at my expense... and it turns out that working for me, plus the bonus and the help with the vehicle expenses, kept them in business that year. My little mishap gave them just enough income that they made it through a tough spot, and got their business established.
Good can come from amazing places. And it's neat, when it's mutual, too.
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My mom is always giving me "advise" on what to do with my autistic child! So I told her why did not she do some of there things since she has more time. There was only one thing she liked and that was donating money to the school to start a program-I told her maybe they could name the wing after her and that was all it took for her to say that was a good idea!