Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Wildflower on April 04, 2004, 01:20:44 PM
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Guest wrote: when the student is ready the teacher will appear."
You can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.
Everyone here has issues, otherwise we wouldn’t be here, right? Many, if not all of us, have issues we are unaware of – because our voicelessness has made us unaware of ourselves. And it’s OKAY to be unaware while in the process of healing. That’s what we’re here for: to discover our true selves and the issues that prevent us from becoming our true selves. To find our voices.
We cannot help anyone else see issues they may have until they are ready. We may not even be qualified to assess what issues another person has, and it’s certainly easy to see our own issues in others. And natural.
We can ask guiding questions, we can suggest books that may be helpful, and we can offer our experiences. That’s it. If anyone learns from what we have to offer, that’s great, but there are no guarantees – and accusing someone of having issues that they cannot see may only serve to slow the process of healing if that person develops defense mechanisms to protect them from having to face those issues too soon.
Christy wrote: "Every arrow you shoot has to pass through you first".
Paraphrase: I am not responsible for what happened to me as a child, but I am responsible for my own recovery (sorry, couldn’t find the post or remember who said this).
A couple of weeks ago, as I was trying to work through my feelings of guilt for having yelled at my mother, my therapist reminded me that my mother is ‘hard of hearing’, which is true in the metaphorical sense. Her physical hearing is just fine – but that doesn’t stop her from saying ‘huh?’ after everything I say and then interrupt my attempt to repeat myself by responding to what I said (meaning she heard me the first time). While I was dependent on my mother, I had to scream at the top of my lungs, or find other methods of ‘screaming’, in order to get what I needed from her. There was no other way.
A few months ago, I was doing an exercise from Children of the Self-Absorbed in an attempt to understand my feelings for my father when it dawned on me – through re-living a particularly painful scene – that what had upset me most about that scene was that I had lost control and screamed at him. It wasn’t until then that I realized that, quite the opposite of my parent’s labels of me, I hated yelling at them. In fact, yelling at them hurt me. And that’s when I began to understand that I had been pushed - I must have been pushed - to do something that hurt me.
Years ago, before I had the knowledge of NPD to help me sort through so many issues, I used the concept of habits to pull myself up out of the darkness. Whenever I was able to identify a ‘bad habit’, I immediately put all my energy into dropping that habit and replacing it with a good one. A clean home and a love of cooking are two very positive results of this effort. A struggle that ended with more mixed results was my struggle to stop being critical of others and to stop using my childhood pain to get special treatment from others (which is different from asking for the help we need). Mixed because:
A) I am now more able to appreciate others instead of seeing only their faults. I feel less isolated and I am more able to identify with others because I’m not special: the same rules apply to the adult me, regardless of any childhood abuse. In short, I feel more connection to people in the world, and I’m less likely to alienate or take for granted the very people who may be able to help me.
B) As I looked back with my new less-critical eyes, I saw a wake of destruction behind me, both of myself and others. How much time have I wasted with all these negative feelings? How many people have I hurt - people I cared about, people I may never be able to face again – because I was lashing out?
Every person I hurt has added that much more grief and remorse to my process of healing. So I ask you, please don’t do what I did and hurt those around you by lashing out at people here who want to help. We need to scream sometimes in order to find our true selves, but try to scream at the right people – the N’s in our lives and maybe even our therapists/healers who are trained to handle it. And if someone here has offended or hurt you, try to find a voice that won’t end up hurting you by alienating the very people who are here to help.
I realize that I may be out of place in saying these things (I’m no therapist and I’m certainly not trained to deal with helping people resolve their issues), but I felt I couldn’t remain silent on this subject.
All my best,
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower,
I really appreciated your post and I know from bumping into you around this forum that you practice what you preach.
I've manage to model some bad habits out of my life, but it only ever seemed to work for me at the 'right time'. Seems like the formwork had to be in place first.
I had Maslow's Ladder on my fridge for years till my cat shredded the bottom rungs off. My fridge is like, "The one who dies with the most fridge magnets wins" situations. Everybody keeps giving me these bloody fridge magnets. "Oh, saw this, thought of you." "Gee Ta" :)
Sorry, back on track. Yes, if the basics aren't there then what's to build on. Your post gave me the impression of different teachers I've had.
The helpful, recommending, jointly exploring, encouraging ones
versus
the talking at me, telling me what to do, assuming, imposing, lecturing ones who set too high goals and tasks for me at my level.
These were goals they could breeze through, having been there and done it. When people do this to me, my brain locks, I freeze up and all my creative juices and energy dry up. Sometimes I feel physically sick, or fall asleep, I have to go find a place to lie down.
"Excuse miss, I need to have a sleep. Listening to you for the past half hour has brought on a bout of chronic-fatigue-syndrome. Do you mind?"
Anyway, enough frivolity, once again Wildflower, you've set the cogs in my old grey matter a churnin'.
I've been lucky with the brain freeze thing, even though at times it's terribly debilitating, like I have tremendous difficulty sitting formal tests, but it's had some positive spin-offs too. When I am insulted or emotionally injured, I can't react immediately. My brain freezes and so I don't react often for 2 or 3 days. It can take me this long to recognise and process the situation. So by the time I do other things have happened usually, and often I don't feel the need to do anything, so I seldom say things to escalate the situation at the time.
The trade-off here for me is that I haven't been in a lot of situations like you mention of isolating myself from friends or have deep feelings of grief for causing them pain. This handicap I have has a positive side. I've only recognised it recently as a side issue from reading the Imposter Syndrome things. And I've asked different family members if they notice this about me. Unanimous "YES." So I think this handicap is good. Even though I haven't passed all the formal tests I'd have like to, and I've never mastered Corel Draw because the teacher sedated me mentally. Never mind.
How do I try to translate that here. If I feel uncomfortable or negative about a response to me or someone else, or I feel I have been attacked I try not to respond now. I don't suppress my feelings, I try to explore them. But do I try to suppress my actions or should I say my reactions. I try very hard to not reply immediately, I just don't send it. I've typed out some very degrading replies at times but then I don't send them. I disconnect from the net or go out, get back to work, whatever. And many times more often than not I'm glad I didn't press the 'SUBMIT' button.
I now try to wait till I'm calm and settled and have thought it through. Hey, let other people respond, see what they say. If this means I have to wait a day or a week, fine, I can. There are plenty of other threads and topics to go to and learn from and contribute to.
And for me personally, I think it's best if I don't respond immediately if I feel I'm under threat. Brother is that hard to do sometimes, especially when I get that fired-up urge to respond defensively. But not giving in to these impulses is both good developement of self-control in me and also good from the point of view of the quality of the response that's posted, (premature ejeculation of the verbal kind, not very satisfying for either party.) so it's better for everybody else too.
And if I'm real lucky, it'll bring the feeling of restoration or closure. Either way, it often prevents me getting caught up in a negative joust spiralling ever-downwards. I'll try to avoid that here, I've had enough of that in my life.
Anyway I don't want to be someone who easily has their buttons pushed by anybody out there having a bad hair day or going through PMT. I say, "I'll push my own buttons, when I'm ready, thanks very much."
And thankyou for once again Wildflower for sharing these thoughts, and allowing me the opportunity to explore mine as a result.
Guest.
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Hi Guest,
You are seriously hilarious! :lol:
I had Maslow's Ladder on my fridge for years till my cat shredded the bottom rungs off. My fridge is like, "The one who dies with the most fridge magnets wins" situations. Everybody keeps giving me these bloody fridge magnets. "Oh, saw this, thought of you." "Gee Ta"
You know that deep laugh that gives you hiccups and makes your sides hurt? Well that’s me right now reading that. :lol: The rest of your post was great, too (and bot we need a little frivolity here), but that really got me. :D
I've manage to model some bad habits out of my life, but it only ever seemed to work for me at the 'right time'. Seems like the formwork had to be in place first.
You’re so right. I know this, too, but I was just sooo frustrated with what I saw happening on the board and a part of me couldn’t sit silently by on the off chance that one person might hear me and stop feeding this weirdo infinite loop of attacking going on. I think it’s so important to learn to express ourselves, but there are consequences that come with speaking out (especially to N’s), and sometimes being silent is expression enough. But maybe that’s just me, or maybe I’m not as far along as those here doing their battles.
When I am insulted or emotionally injured, I can't react immediately. My brain freezes and so I don't react often for 2 or 3 days.
You’re way ahead of me! It honestly takes me months sometimes. We’re workin’ on that though. Be mad now, not when everyone’s like, “what the hell? Where’d that come from?” Get more outta the interaction when it’s in the same century. :roll:
But I hear you, and thanks so much for adding your own perspective and experience with responding to sticky situations. It’s nice hearing how others have found their ways in the world.
Glad you’re here, Guest.
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower, and then I remembered you did an interior design course. Clean surfaces, and I bet - no fridge magnets. Blaah. :oops:
By the way, I'm glad you're here too. Whatever anxiety you may feel about the recent days here, I can tell you that from where I sit you played a vital part in introducing and maintaining stability at certain key points, with your warm genuine encouragement and soothing words. So thankyou.
Guest
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Learned a lot from this thread. Thank you both, but especially Wildflower's thoughts:
"As I looked back with my new less-critical eyes, I saw a wake of destruction behind me, both of myself and others. How much time have I wasted with all these negative feelings? How many people have I hurt - people I cared about, people I may never be able to face again – because I was lashing out? "
Ishana
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Hi Wildflower, and then I remembered you did an interior design course. Clean surfaces, and I bet - no fridge magnets. Blaah.
I have to admit, my fridge is pretty low on magnets, and that’s partly by design. I actually used to have a few until my cat managed to hide all of them in various places where I’ll probably never see them again. :D He also used to go through all of my kitchen sponges, too. I’d come home and they’d be in shreds on the floor, so now I buy special cat-proof sponges. I’ve seen this guy eat enough cat toys to know he’s gotta have a tummy tough enough to manage a shred of sponge now and then, , but I worry about him getting sick on whatever chemicals are in the sponges. Talk about cat/child-proofing a house though. :D Which is why I got such a kick out of imagining a cat going after the rungs of Maslow’s ladder. :lol: And regarding being the first one out the door with the most magnets, I was the same with my first car and bumper stickers. And it was a very large old car. Lots of room for stickers. :D
The helpful, recommending, jointly exploring, encouraging ones
versus
the talking at me, telling me what to do, assuming, imposing, lecturing ones who set too high goals and tasks for me at my level.
It took another, closer reading to hear that you may be trying to tell me something here about the way I approached my first posting. If you are, I know I have a tendency to get on a podium sometimes. I try not to, but I may have slipped again here. I’m sorry if I gave anyone a frozen brain. If that wasn’t your intention, I’ll move on. :wink:
In any case, thanks for your very kind words, Guest.
Wildflower
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The helpful, recommending, jointly exploring, encouraging ones
versus
the talking at me, telling me what to do, assuming, imposing, lecturing ones who set too high goals and tasks for me at my level.
It took another, closer reading to hear that you may be trying to tell me something here about the way I approached my first posting. If you are, I know I have a tendency to get on a podium sometimes. I try not to, but I may have slipped again here. I’m sorry if I gave anyone a frozen brain. If that wasn’t your intention, I’ll move on. :wink:
In any case, thanks for your very kind words, Guest.
Wildflower
Gosh I positively absolutely wasn't referring to you at all Wildflower, I actually wasn't even thinking about anyone here at all when I wrote that.
I was thinking about Miss Freegard my maths teacher in high school, and how different she was from Mr Tainton my English teacher. I loved maths till I got Miss Freegard as a teacher. She ruined my love of school & maths and teachers for quite some time.
And those ridiculous short skirts she wore, made of what looked like felt, finished off with a huge thick black patent leather belt pulled as tight as possible around her waist. The belt was nearly as big as the skirt. And then the black knee high boots did it for me. She had such shapeless legs that didn't meet at the top, you could have driven a double decker bus through them and not touched the sides.
Add to that her shouting, telling, demanding and lecturing and teased hair and blue eye-shadow. How the hell could I think about maths, I was trying to work out why she wore brown mascara and black eyeliner and reddy brown eyebrown pencil.
And why hadn't anyone told her someone with such a flat bum shouldn't wear short tight skirts. If you have a flat bum you wear full pleated or swirly skirts. Anyone with a brain knows that. She lost my confidence. :D
Then there was Mr Tainton. He was gorgeous, old, soft, gentle, leading, encouraging, laughing, and even the boys loved him. He poked fun at himself and made us laugh. And taught us how interesting the dictionary was by playing a game he made up for his kids with us.
I play that game now with my kids. Pass the dictionary. I pick out a word, whoever guesses the correct meaning gets the dictionary to pick out a word and so on. I really loved his manner and I worked so hard in class and on the assignments and each and everything he asked me to do.
No no no, Wildflower, I don't see you like Miss Freegard at all, you're like Mr Tainton.
Love to you Guest.
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And all I feel is sick and ashamed and lost and alone. And if I post this I'm probably ruining the thread. It's a nice thread. I've lost 'me'. I don't know where I am any more. What the hell did my mother do to me. I'm trapped in circles - I'm got at from every side - and then criticised for going in circles.
I thought it was meant for me, too, Wildflower. (I'd try to wink but I haven't the strength). Other stuff, too. Maybe it was. Because I 'know' I'll be the bad person round here. I'm on the edge of believing that but what I do know for real is that the feeling/thought comes from childhood because it was precisely that feeling that stopped me 'fronting up' to that 'bad therapist' (inexperienced is perhaps a better word). I would be the 'bad' person and get into terrible trouble and probably be abandoned if I 'preferred' someone else (eg to talk to the more experienced therapist) so I had to stay in the bad relationship and just cope. :idea: ping! (I also knew at the same time that this represented my relationship with my mother and father - but how to even begin to explain!!?)
I did write down my experience, tho - what was 'real', what I thought was 'real'. I don't know exactly what I wrote - he threw it all away. He came back off holiday and I said, can we look at the letters now (he never mentioned them during our sessions, I must have sent him one every week trying to explain things better!) and he said, "oh I threw them away when I was clearing my desk before I went on holiday" :shock: (I know what that felt like, but I won't be so basic! Let's say he threw away some precious gifts I'd given him. It gave me a lot of pain; I'd trusted him by not keeping copies. I keep copies of everything now!!!)
I guess I was in a better 'space' after a break away from him, but I never did get a chance to sort of 'review' the madness. To see whether or not it was madness or whether it was real.
I used to think : He is a nice person (so how can I think he's doing terrible things), he is young, he is inexperienced; so was my mother. Who's who?? What terrible guilt for thinking 'bad' thoughts about him (I don't even know what the bad thoughts were - anger? dissatisfaction? competitive? wanting to take his place? I phoned up once and the receptionist thought I was his wife. :shock: That's all I needed. Quick, find me the funny farm - catatonia would make living so much easier!!!!!)
But you go into therapy to try to work things out. You're meant to use your brain so don't start picking on me again and tell me not to think. I'm sure he would have preferred me not to think - but it was easy, then, to stamp out the threat because I was very, very 'nice' and very, very accommodating - then. I discovered later that the only way to become 'me' was to stamp about a lot and make a racket to be heard!!! :idea: I have this idea you have to fight for your life if you want to be born/become independent/become strong (but I didn't realise there was absolutely no point in making a racket, that the earth would explode before her disorder would 'hear' me!!!)
I think it is true to say that I've been well and truly f@d up by some people in my life. I don't even know if I've ever been sane- perhaps I'm just all 'a great big front'. I can be who you want - who do you want me to be? I'm good at that. However you define me, I'll fall right into the mould. It's so hard to stay 'me' if I'm amongst people who want to define me according to their own 'demons', unless I'm really, really alert. And if someone wants to define me according to something nice, I risk alienating them if my identity is an issue for me. Mostly I go with the flow but then it sets up expectations and disappointments.
Oh, here's a good one. When I was two, I was taken to the social services to sort out why I was so clingy! They put me on one side of a door and my mother on the other, shut the door and then held me back while I screamed and screamed to reach her. Don't you understand you dumpkopfs that I have to be with my mother to look after her so that she can look after me????!!!!! No, people don't understand what's going on in the head of a two year old. They just play 'sadistic' games instead. It was totally ineffectual as I was 42 before I worked that one out and realised that not everybody else's needs come before mine!!!
I had to stop laughing that deeply, Wildflower - I'd get an asthma attack!! But I would if I could. :wink:
I post to say I'm OK then suddenly slip into some ravine again. I guess it's getting better - just up and down.
R
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my mother is ‘hard of hearing’, which is true in the metaphorical sense. Her physical hearing is just fine – but that doesn’t stop her from saying ‘huh?’ after everything I say
I'm glad I came back to this thread and found this again because I wanted to share an idea with you.
Her 'hard of hearing' may be psychological but there's also something called CAPD - it's like a hearing dyslexia.
We discovered my son has it and it's something to do with the left or right side being stronger than the other so that what goes in one ear has to travel a long way to get processed. I'm also sure my husband suffers, too. Ask him 'what did they just say' and he, without fail, tells me the last but one thing someone said. Weird - until you know.
They really do take longer to process what they hear and often it doesn't get processed at all with kids who have a busy mind (mine's got an imagination that never stops) as what you say just doesn't get time to be processed before the mind is whisked off elsewhere. I found that simply repeating what I wanted (eg put your coat on) several times without stopping provided enough input to reach him.
I've discovered that in the States they are passing this on to the audiologists but as it's not a 'hearing' issue per se, but a processing one, I think that confuses things.
Just a thought to play with.
R
PS Central Auditory Processing Disorder
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Hello R, can I tell you I'm having a visceral response to your post?
Like :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: but no tears as such from me, just the pain behind my eyes and in my head. I'll just say you're not alone, no more than me, or others....or anyone. I read the Shamed poem. I could feel myself kicking against the holding hands together...because I don't really trust all that well. And no daughters for me thank you! But I'm still here. Going to post on Myers Briggs now, that's occupied me all morning! :roll: Sending some rainbows your way. (((((R))))) P
and another post above! Look at you helping! Helping..trying to help..
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I thought it was meant for me, too, Wildflower. (I'd try to wink but I haven't the strength). Other stuff, too. Maybe it was.
R
Rosencrantz hi, and no no no, this most definitely wasn't meant for you. It really wasn't meant for anyone here. It's true what I wrote to Wildflower, that when I wrote this I had a picture in my head of teachers who impacted on me.
And anyway, in my mind I don't see you like that either. In you I see somebody fighting to gain control. Not of others lives and minds and feelings, but control of your own mind, life and feelings. I can relate to this. I don't find you invasive and demanding, I find you cautious but then once you've assessed it's safe, you're embracing and contributing, a very giving person. The lengths I've seen you go to to help people work through some issues here. What patience. I start trying to do that and half way through I catch my superficial side going "Yeah whatever." :roll:
I look at you and you inspire me. So hey, if you inspire me, and your so f*#*ed up what does that say about me? You better not answer that. You'd say it too well and quite frankly, I can't afford the therapy.
So anyway Rsencrantz, I haven't finished reading your post, I just wanted to say to you, NO. It's not about you. It was about that Bitch, Miss Freegard who ruined forever my chance of becoming an astronaut and being the first woman in space. I wonder if there are narcissists on Mars. If there aren't I'm goin'.
Love to you Rosencrantz and whoever else reads here.
Guest with the big mouth.
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Hi Rosencrantz,
I missed this post until just this afternoon because I’ve been a little embarrassed by this thread (what I've said, not others) and wanted to walk away. And I assumed that since Guest was the last person posting, no new posts where here. And, well, because this thread took me to a new place last night, and I’m still kinda reeling. In a good way, but reeling. Am I a nutbag, or what? Pushing myself like this. :roll: :D
Anyway, to you R. I want to respond more, but just a few thoughts for now.
I’ve been worried that my last post was pushing you just as hard by asking you to look at your past in a really painful way. I’ve been doing this same looking at my own past lately because it’s the only way I’ve been able to find myself in all the murkiness – and through all the definitions. Where is that kiddo who survived so much? Instead of, Where is that difficult child who made messes all over the place? But this is an extremely heart-wrenching and disorienting experience, and I’m sorry if by asking you to do this I’ve only added to your recent battles with confusion and definitions and all that. You're doing great, though. There's so much here in your post. :)
while I screamed and screamed to reach her. Don't you understand you dumpkopfs that I have to be with my mother to look after her so that she can look after me????!!!!!
This is a little question that’s been under the surface of my thoughts for a while now, because it’s just so hard to reconcile the fact that I would ever run home to a place that made me sick. :shock: I did, though, throughout most of junior high and high school. I say it's a question, but I can still hear the thought that drove me, “If my own mother doesn’t love me, how can I expect anyone else to? I have to fix things [myself] with her before I can be with others.”
I can be who you want - who do you want me to be? I'm good at that.
I used to be a chameleon. I used to pride myself on slipping into new places with new people and blending in almost immediately. Um, or… becoming invisible. :wink: Oddly enough, it was when I worked for a Japanese company that this tactic of mine was truly challenged. I couldn’t do it there. I hit some major walls being in that culture, and it was one of the first times I really felt like, Hey, I’m limited. There are some people I just can’t be. :idea:
(But wow were there so many people I wanted to be but couldn’t. I’m just hitting contradictions all over the place right now.)
These personality issues can be so overwhelming, though. And bottomless…shifty ground…hard to stand on. And you shoulda seen me when I was immersed in Continental philosophy! :wink: Oooo boy. Talk about thinking too much!!! And I do mean immersed. :roll: :roll: :roll:
So I tried on another extreme (I’m sorry I always resort to story telling. It’s the only way I know how to make my point without getting all abstract and meaningless). I decided, hey, you know what? I’m gonna be dumb for a while. D-U-M dumb. It was just a new role to try out at first (but then it stuck :roll: – no just kidding :wink: – well maybe I’m serious :roll: – no just kidding :wink: ). But what it helped me do was say to myself, I have NO IDEA what kind of music I like. I used to know, but I forgot. Poof. I used to know how to do x, y, z. But you know, I just forgot. Poof. And that gave me a clean slate. And empty shopping cart. Hmmm. What DO I feel like trying out today? :D
Music can be very concrete (I love Tom Petty) but it can also be very telling (I love how free and down to earth and unpretentious and raw and knowing and unassuming he is). So I’ve been amassing a silly little superficial list in my head of “who I am.” I like Brussels Sprouts (not as much peas, incidentally). Who likes Brussels Sprouts? :shock: Me. That’s who. I love purple with a passion, and spring colors tempt me spend insane amounts of money (I don’t, though). But…I used to wear black all the time?? Hunh. Guess I never knew. :shock: :D Maybe these things will change over time, but I know they're me now. They're not a reaction to anyone else, and they're not imposed by anyone else.
So when I asked you about a book of Rosencrantz, I guess in a way I was asking you to list the bits of you that have been cropping up when pressed. A little list to go back to for these times of vertigo. There’s a you in there – don’t doubt it. :) We’re physical beings and that, at the very least, means there’s something that makes us unique (MY body - not YOURS to wreak havoc with, stamp stamp stamp). Even if it’s about who eats broccoli with peanut butter (not me, I swear).
Well, I guess that's a little more than a few thoughts, but once I get going...
With love and compassion,
Wildflower
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I nearly missed these posts! That would have been a terrible waste as they are so ace!!! Particularly as I've been having a really bad time all day, struggling with feelings and words, decided not to risk exposure and then felt bad about giving up (but perhaps for this dumkopf that's a GOOD thing - my problem perhaps, probably, most likely being 'no discernment'.
I especially like "Yeah whatever. :roll: " :lol: I think that might be my new mantra.
I didn't intend to make you reassure me (but I suspect you recognise that).
Thank you for what you see in me - but it rather got lost in the laughter you provoked. :lol: And the rest of your post passed similarly in a haze of delighted laughter again. Thank you so much. (As long as you know it takes one to know one!) Did you mean I go straight for the jugular?! I mean how stoopid can you (ie me) get if you (I) think people won't say 'ouch'!!!!!
Tears of laughter - what a grownup you are! I'll never get that far in this lifetime.
You were darn right about that 'closure' business tho'. I did feel desperately humilliated. More - it was a terrible shock to wake up (literally!) to the fact that I was no longer in control. (I wasn't anyway, but still!). I think a warning by pm could have been a good idea. Indeed to have given us a choice (now there's a thought). I think the ensuing guilt unhinged me slightly. Maybe it was like having the door slammed shut between me (aged 2) and my mother!!! :shock: That'll teach me to behave myself. Challenge her and you lose big time!!! :twisted:
And I think two people got lumbered with anger of mine that should have been directed towards RG - cos they got in between him and you and inadvertently got in between me and him! And his 'I get control now' was a slap in the face - really. Whatever the intention. But I certainly don't think he is harmed one little bit by any opinions out here. He'd intend them to be expressed. (Just 'expressing' RG!) The point of the story was to get us to post appropriately again - from the heart - I can't imagine for a minute that his aim was for us to start looking after his feelings!!
Oh, and someone said to me that my experience of the inexperienced therapist put her off 'talking therapy'. Be careful out there but there are good guys around - my first was caring and careful and dealt with a completely voiceless person in a helpful way. He sowed seeds and helped me make the transition from my mother - without him the consequences would have been dire. And I see no reason not to trust RG.
Thanks again for all your posts. And CG - what a capacity for healing!
G'night
R
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Her 'hard of hearing' may be psychological but there's also something called CAPD - it's like a hearing dyslexia.
We discovered my son has it and it's something to do with the left or right side being stronger than the other so that what goes in one ear has to travel a long way to get processed. I'm also sure my husband suffers, too. Ask him 'what did they just say' and he, without fail, tells me the last but one thing someone said. Weird - until you know.
They really do take longer to process what they hear and often it doesn't get processed at all with kids who have a busy mind (mine's got an imagination that never stops) as what you say just doesn't get time to be processed before the mind is whisked off elsewhere. I found that simply repeating what I wanted (eg put your coat on) several times without stopping provided enough input to reach him.
PS Central Auditory Processing Disorder
That's interesting Rosencrantz, I'm going to do a net search on this when I get time. I often hear things 'much later' sometimes. It's weird.
Thanks and hope you're feeling okay
Guest
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Hi Rosencrantz,
Thanks for the CAPD tip. I've done a little reading and I'll probably do some more, but I suspect that what's actually happening is that she sometimes forgets there's someone on the other end of the phone attached to her ear. It's really more of a "I was in the middle of telling a story when I heard this noise coming from somewhere. Huh? What's that? Who's there?" :roll: :wink:
Wildflower
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You know...I was obsessed as a child with fixing things with my mother and that kept me from doing what I needed to do - which was to be out in the world, yes, recharging my batteries. So weird to think about it that way, but it makes sense now. And I see now how frustrated I was with failing so much with people and not having any support for figuring out how to be a better friend, a better person in society, a better me.
Now I'm obsessing about people I hurt in my past. And I'm paranoid about hurting people in the present and future. But I see people here being resilient in the face of what's been going on in the past few days. And I feel how self-important it might be to think I could have such a big impact on the great survivors on this board. Those people I hurt in the past are fine and doing well in life, I bet. They were some good solid folks - what drew me to them in the first place. And people forgive. And they really just aren't as delicate (as much of a victim) as my mother is/was.
I made mistakes. I was frustrated that I couldn't be a better person around my friends. And there's one person in particular who haunts me. I cherished him. I hurt him pretty badly once, and while we were able to remain friends for a few years after that, we were never that close again. I missed out on him like I missed out on my childhood. :cry: But it's time to let him go.
Thanks again to everyone on this board who by being there with all your many voices have helped me make so many leaps in such a short time.
Wildflower
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And, well, because this thread took me to a new place last night, and I’m still kinda reeling. In a good way, but reeling. Am I a nutbag, or what? Pushing myself like this. :roll: :D
These personality issues can be so overwhelming, though. And bottomless…shifty ground…hard to stand on. And you shoulda seen me when I was immersed in Continental philosophy! :wink: Oooo boy. Talk about thinking too much!!! And I do mean immersed. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Music can be very concrete (I love Tom Petty) but it can also be very telling (I love how free and down to earth and unpretentious and raw and knowing and unassuming he is). So I’ve been amassing a silly little superficial list in my head of “who I am.” I like Brussels Sprouts (not as much peas, incidentally). Who likes Brussels Sprouts? :shock: Me. That’s who. I love purple with a passion, and spring colors tempt me spend insane amounts of money (I don’t, though). But…I used to wear black all the time?? Hunh. Guess I never knew. :shock: :D Maybe these things will change over time, but I know they're me now. They're not a reaction to anyone else, and they're not imposed by anyone else.
So when I asked you about a book of Rosencrantz, I guess in a way I was asking you to list the bits of you that have been cropping up when pressed. A little list to go back to for these times of vertigo. There’s a you in there – don’t doubt it. :) We’re physical beings and that, at the very least, means there’s something that makes us unique (MY body - not YOURS to wreak havoc with, stamp stamp stamp). Even if it’s about who eats broccoli with peanut butter (not me, I swear).
Well, I guess that's a little more than a few thoughts, but once I get going...
With love and compassion,
Wildflower
No Wildflower, you're definitely not nuts, you're wonderful. I've come back to the dialogue between you and Rosencrantz. It has spirited me along to a place I've been trying to find. The quest for my signature and syle. Who I really am.
Am I game to be who I secretly suspect I am? I get glimpses of the real me at times. I hear my real voice sometimes, and then something or someone in the world frightens me and I hide the real me behind a shield and armour. It's a magnificent and intimidating suit and that's the me that the world sees. I'm invincible in battle!
But it's not the real me, it's my protective shell, my survival facade that I made as a kid and it's impenetrable and it's alive. I had to make it to hide behind or I'd have died from all the fighting, screaming, bashings and expectations. And now I've been wearing it for so long, it's become tight, uncomfortable, infact, it's beginning to constrict me. It's such a tough call because without it on I feel so naked and vulnerable.
I know in this suit I'm safe, that no-one can know me or touch me, and I can't know or touch anyone else. And that also makes me feel very lonely. I don't want to be seperated and hidden from the world forever. I think the time is coming soon when I'm going to have to take this suit off and pack it away. I'm so sad about this in some ways, because it's become so much a part of me and saved me so many times. But if I keep hiding in it I'm afraid I'll never be able to get it off.
Thank you so much Wildflower and Rosencrantz,
this has been so encouraging and revealing for me.
PS. Wildflower, now who's the nutbag? :wink:
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You were darn right about that 'closure' business tho'. I did feel desperately humilliated. More - it was a terrible shock to wake up (literally!) to the fact that I was no longer in control. (I wasn't anyway, but still!). I think the ensuing guilt unhinged me slightly. Maybe it was like having the door slammed shut between me (aged 2) and my mother!!! :shock: That'll teach me to behave myself. Challenge her and you lose big time!!! :twisted:
And I think two people got lumbered with anger of mine that should have been directed towards RG - cos they got in between him and you and inadvertently got in between me and him! The point of the story was to get us to post appropriately again - from the heart - I can't imagine for a minute that his aim was for us to start looking after his feelings!!
Oh, and someone said to me that my experience of the inexperienced therapist put her off 'talking therapy'. Be careful out there but there are good guys around - my first was caring and careful and dealt with a completely voiceless person in a helpful way. He sowed seeds and helped me make the transition from my mother - without him the consequences would have been dire. And I see no reason not to trust RG.
R
This is such good stuff, and the way you can knit things together. :idea: The analysis and associations here go deep, huh? That story about the door being closed between you and your mother is so heartbreaking, but also gets some anger happening? I don't understand at all. All I know is it affects me somewhere deep. And the way you have and are making sense of all the above is so amazing to me.
Gosh memories are painful sometimes. But boy, the most freeing times I've had, and where I've learned the most, is when I've put in the effort. When I've refused to let myself off the hook, or let myself be too afraid to look at the past, or in the mirror. When I admit to what I see and open it up to scrutiny, (at the right time and in the right environment) so often the picture or memory changes for the better. Sometimes even taking on whole new reality and meaning. And then I'm set free.
Thanks Rosencrantz for showing me how to do that.
Guest
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Thanks Rosencrantz for showing me how to do that.
Boy, are YOU welcome!!!!!
Quite often I start a sentence and have no idea where it's leading but it has its own ending. Subject, verb - kerpow! It leads somewhere amazing!!! But it must sound as tho I knew where I'm going when I started it.
WILDFLOWER - I've not been keeping up with you. But you keep on going - you're doing great processing, too!!!!! Thanks for explaining the R book - you're right. I'll start today!!
You made me laugh so much when you described your mother on the other end of the phone. I think your mother and Portia's mother should be put on the end of the same phone line. I think they'd be happy for days just talking away. :lol: (OK on that, Portia?!)
I did start writing to you last night as you'd posted while I was still writing to CG but I had to give in to the exhaustion of the day. So this relates to what you wrote earlier - tho I think you've moved on quite a bit since then!!!
But you know, I see you suffering a lot and it puts me back into context.
My stuff is about understanding what's 'out there'. And how people 'decide' who I am and how I can change what they decide. I lack words for it all - I have only my N/F to experience it with. I know deep down what I know and what I believe. I'm just not very resilient if someone disputes the nose on my face!!! (as in 'it's as plain as...'). Everything comes cascading down in a welter of shame. And I have some other stuff about 'whose feelings am I feeling' simply because I connect so strongly with people and it's not something that is valued or even recognised in our everyday conversations!!
But I see you struggling with your very identity. I don't know if it's different to what I'm doing but it feels different. In my book we really can only discern by contrast. Find some polar opposites in your life and rub up against them. You'll find out who you are soon enough. You sound like a little girl so lost. And so down on yourself. Go through it by all means, but sometimes you just have to chuck out the duff stuff and believe in yourself. I believe in you. You sound beautiful not ugly. :-) Resilient and strong. And caring. Not patronising.
Watch out for the rescuing, tho - my mother trained me to be a rescuer like her (I am her, she is me) but I think yours trained you to take responsibility because she is irresponsible :shock: So let go of the guilt. Really! You have nothing to make reparation for. Your existence does not damage others!!! Really!!! ESPECIALLY not your mother!!! (I'll just repeat all that to myself here! :wink: :) ) (In the context of everything that has happened recently I want to apologise to you in case I've 'got you' all wrong but somehow I feel that insults our previous discussions so, with fingers crossed, I won't :wink: )
[Just read your more recent post : ach - your mother isn't delicate. She is NOT delicate. She's irresponsible. (mea culpa - it's only my opinion) Oh bother humility. She's irresponsible FGS!!!!! And I don't believe I'm hurting you if I say that!! I'm hurting you far more if I don't!!! Irr-esp-ons-ible!]
I don't know how I managed to cause all that furore, all that damage, all that pain, recently, when I spend all my time pussyfooting around worrying about hurting other people's feelings. But then, I've got a suit, too. Once hauled up I go crashing around like T Rex and it takes a long time to come down again. (?) Meanwhile there's a small, guilty child crying with shame behind it. Definitely a spiral of shame begetting shame.
My H says we're like sweets/candy : I'm tough on the inside with a soft centre - he's soft on the outside but a really hard core. If you push him too hard, he'll make you into a white spot. Wow! You disappear! I wasn't allowed to do anything that 'mean' and self-respecting!!!!! There are lots of things he'll do that my upbringing is horrified about but he's got far more self-respect than I have so I know who I'll listen to!!! (Not everything, tho! We are each more grown up than the other in some ways and less well honed in others - so we keep learning from each other)
R
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Nooo - white spot means you don't exist. Nowhere on the horizon. Maybe somewhere about the height of a worm. But not in his line of vision. No way. Gone. Pouf! :D
R
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Wow! I could never do that to anyone! I'm not capable of that. Now that is self-belief. Respect to the H! :) P
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Yeah! He's a lot more Emotionally Intelligent than I am - but he's a T so he keeps his brain in gear!!!!! A willow that always bends to my oak that never bends. The oil vs the grit that keep the wheels turning. He's shown me a lot but I just can't bend and I just have to provide the grit for everyone to rub up against!!! Sigh! I'm really not going to change, am I!!! Yes I am! :idea: I'm going to respect what makes ME different! And ENJOY it!????!
R
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Hi Guest,
I'm so glad you found the conversations between R and me helpful. :D That really means a lot to me. :D
But it's not the real me, it's my protective shell, my survival facade that I made as a kid and it's impenetrable and it's alive. I had to make it to hide behind or I'd have died from all the fighting, screaming, bashings and expectations. And now I've been wearing it for so long, it's become tight, uncomfortable, infact, it's beginning to constrict me. It's such a tough call because without it on I feel so naked and vulnerable.
I know in this suit I'm safe, that no-one can know me or touch me, and I can't know or touch anyone else. And that also makes me feel very lonely. I don't want to be seperated and hidden from the world forever. I think the time is coming soon when I'm going to have to take this suit off and pack it away. I'm so sad about this in some ways, because it's become so much a part of me and saved me so many times. But if I keep hiding in it I'm afraid I'll never be able to get it off.
I can really relate to this on so many levels. Two things you said resonated really deeply with me, too. Your 'suit' was alive, and since it was such a part of you and stuck up for you for so many years, you're sad to put it away and move on. Is it possible that your suit is a person instead of cold armour? I know mine is. She worked so hard and sacrificed so much to get me here. I want to hug her until she stops hurting and can relax and become a part of me. Whole. Together. :D
Do I suffer from multiple personality disorder? Perhaps. :lol: But at least those personalities are finally working together :D .
Am I game to be who I secretly suspect I am? I get glimpses of the real me at times. I hear my real voice sometimes
Believe, trust, and follow that voice whenever you can. I have no doubt it will lead you to happiness. :D
Wildflower
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I think your mother and Portia's mother should be put on the end of the same phone line. I think they'd be happy for days just talking away. (OK on that, Portia?!)
Wildflower, you want to give your mother the phone number for mine? Any time. Though the calls will be expensive! Good idea R.
OMG that's such a good idea!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Maybe they could even set some kind of world record, too. :roll: :D
And to both of you, thanks for the bit about my mom being plain and simple IRRESPONSIBLE! She so is. And you know what? After all the defense mechanisms she's built up dealing with her mother and avoiding reality, how does it work that I'm able to get through to her and hurt her? Huh? That makes ZERO sense. :roll:
Ahhhh. You live and learn (soooooooooo much on this board). :D
Wildflower
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But I see you struggling with your very identity.
I just wanted to take a minute and say, yes, this is true. But it’s more like I’m struggling to allow my identity to form, because I remember who I was before the world as I knew it came to an end. I'm the little girl who lined people up on the playground to go through a 'tickle machine'. I'm the little girl who said it was time to play ‘girls chase boys’ instead of ‘boys chase girls’ because it wasn’t fair that boys got to do all the chasing. I'm the little girl who would have no problem whatsoever giving you a long lecture about treating people equally. I could go on, but the point is that there are so many things I love about this little girl. :D But for a long time, I just couldn’t hear her through the pain and the lies.
And she’s been growing up over the years – because I’ve been letting her be a child. I really don’t get how this works without involving people chasing me down the street with a straight jacket :lol: , but for her, I’ve been able to be the parent I couldn’t be for my mother. And that my mother couldn’t be for me. And watching this girl grow up has been so full of surprises. Would you believe there was actually a cheerleader phase?!? :shock: In spite of all the feminism and cultured upbringing and whatnot (shaking my head emoticon). Cheerleading!!! :lol: Of course, there weren’t many squads that wanted someone my age :D , so it was more of a fun exercise in making my friends wonder whether or not I was really being serious. But it was fun! :D
All my best,
Wildflower
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I really don’t get how this works without involving people chasing me down the street with a straight jacket :lol:
Would you believe there was actually a cheerleader phase?!? :shock: In spite of all the feminism and cultured upbringing and whatnot (shaking my head emoticon). Cheerleading!!! :lol: Of course, there weren’t many squads that wanted someone my age :D , so it was more of a fun exercise in making my friends wonder whether or not I was really being serious. But it was fun! :D
All my best,
Wildflower
That line about the straight jacket is so funny, but it's so true. I tend to fantasise a lot about the past. I think memory and imagination are very similar. So when I think about the past I'm never 100% if it all did actually happen the way I think it did. I try so very hard to stick with the facts when I'm writing them down, but sometimes I'm so unsure.
At the moment I'm working on a story about a psychic I met, and as a result a string of experiences that actually happened to me 2 years ago.
In doing that, I've realised how much memory can be affected and influenced by our values. And how values drive our imagination. When I read you sharing your stories, I also see you recognise that your imagination is a vital part of the healing process. I think this is such a brave thing to do. Especially in light of the straightjacket imagery. That is hilarious really. I've kept many thoughts and stories secret for fear of the same thing. I guess fiction could be could therapy for that.
And the cheerleading thing, priceless. I've done similar things with and to my family, gone through so many stages in my search for me. Once I went mad and renovated and decorated, with this theme, everything in the house had to be white. And I mean everything. It was all so, so white! And so bloody hard to find anything. When the morning sun blasted into the loungeroom and kitchen from about 6am till 9am , the glare bouncing off everything was unimaginabley cruel. It would cause permanent retina damage if you weren't prepared. We all had to get around in sunglasses first thing or with our hands up like someone shielding their face from a blast.
And I get such a laugh now when I think of that. Thanks Wildflower for opening up and showing me how it's done, and that really it's not as bad as my imagination would have me believe.
Guest.
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Hi Guest,
I should be sleeping now but I read your reply and you got me laughing so hard again. :lol: :lol: :lol: I LOVE this. :D
Once I went mad and renovated and decorated, with this theme, everything in the house had to be white. And I mean everything. It was all so, so white! And so bloody hard to find anything. When the morning sun blasted into the loungeroom and kitchen from about 6am till 9am , the glare bouncing off everything was unimaginabley cruel. It would cause permanent retina damage if you weren't prepared. We all had to get around in sunglasses first thing or with our hands up like someone shielding their face from a blast.
I can’t quite put my finger on what’s so wonderful about your style of humor, but it’s great. I had a friend in college who I adored for so many reasons but there are two that really stand out. He was a year older and I was living in the room he’d had the year before, and one day I pulled down one of the blinds we’d never used before and there was this fantastic stylized cat on the blind. It was such a treat to find. And his manner of speech was so wonderfully fresh – I really never knew what he was going to say next, but everything he said made me look at the world a little differently. I tried to tell him how much I adored these qualities in him by saying “you’re so RANDOM”. He wasn’t pleased. :oops: :roll: So, I don’t want to risk doing that to you here, but thank you thank you thank you for sharing that! :D
And thanks for understanding where I was coming from instead of calling the funny farm on me. :D
Wildflower
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Now I’m enjoying reading Wildflower and Guest. More please! I agree Wildflower, Guest’s sense of humour makes me laugh out loud (I love the chicken house story on the other what helps? Board, the image of chickens falling off their perches in shock, love it!).
You keep showing more of yourself Wildflower and I’m being amazed by your huge and varied personality. Blossoming on the board (that wasn’t meant as a pun). Really! Don’t mean to be patronising or flattering…(text deleted here about IQ, EQ and society’s view of crazy, sparked by your straightjacket comment but decided not to go there, ok?)
I think memory and imagination are very similar. So when I think about the past I'm never 100% if it all did actually happen the way I think it did. I try so very hard to stick with the facts when I'm writing them down, but sometimes I'm so unsure
Ah Guest, did it really happen or did it happen in a dream? Sometimes I have no idea. And the facts! I guess things like dates, legal stuff, births and deaths are facts but not much else.
As R was saying abut introverts elsewhere, I need external validation, I do not trust the values I have placed on memories any more. That’s why talking on this board is tricky in terms of drawing conclusions – it’s my take, my values, my memories.
how much memory can be affected and influenced by our values. And how values drive our imagination
Yes, like I remember that event, I did that. Why did I do that? Ahh, because I wanted to get away, I was unhappy (No, because you wanted to rebel and have fun). Not sure.
People used to listen to me talk (teens, early 20s), smile and say “you’re crazy!” I guess meaning ‘what odd thoughts’ but I can say now, it was both flattering to my mind and I also wanted to punch those people for making me wonder if it was true. Crowds, lynch mobs, lunch mobs in the workplace. Sorry, darkness, back to you quick! P
PS. Here’s weird one on facts/experience/immediate memory. Going to bed the other night, OH puts radio on and there’s some silly song being sung on some comedy prog. I hear him sing along a line. I go into the bedroom and after a pause he says “so you know that song too?”. “Eh?” I say. He says “Weren’t you just singing it?” Me: “No, that was you singing!” Both of us: “Yikes!” (I think he had a conversation with me in his mind and took it as real – bit like thinking you’ve woken up, got out of bed, brushed your teeth…and then you wake up.) Odd chap, the brain.
Was it here or elsewhere? “You’re just jealous because the voices aren’t talking to you!”
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But I see you struggling with your very identity.
I just wanted to take a minute and say, yes, this is true. But it’s more like I’m struggling to allow my identity to form, because I remember who I was before the world as I knew it came to an end
All my best,
Wildflower
Hi Wildflower, when the world as you knew it came to an end, was it a particular catastropic event, a ground zero experience. Or was it a major internal reality moment that hit after years of unrecognised degradation.
Guest
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As R was saying abut introverts elsewhere, I need external validation, I do not trust the values I have placed on memories any more. That’s why talking on this board is tricky in terms of drawing conclusions – it’s my take, my values, my memories. What I’d really like is couples therapy just to get the stories out. This is my story of that event: what’s yours mother/father/eye-witness? Tell the truth. I guess I might be in a law court here, so perhaps not such a good idea (but no-one is on trial: only the truth of events and then the subjective responses to those events).
People used to listen to me talk (teens, early 20s), smile and say “you’re crazy!” I guess meaning ‘what odd thoughts’ but I can say now, it was both flattering to my mind and I also wanted to punch those people for making me wonder if it was true. Crowds, lynch mobs, lunch mobs in the workplace. Sorry, darkness, back to you quick! P
PS. Here’s weird one on facts/experience/immediate memory. Going to bed the other night, OH puts radio on and there’s some silly song being sung on some comedy prog. I hear him sing along a line. I go into the bedroom and after a pause he says “so you know that song too?”. “Eh?” I say. He says “Weren’t you just singing it?” Me: “No, that was you singing!” Both of us: “Yikes!” (I think he had a conversation with me in his mind and took it as real – bit like thinking you’ve woken up, got out of bed, brushed your teeth…and then you wake up.) Odd chap, the brain.
Was it here or elsewhere? “You’re just jealous because the voices aren’t talking to you!”
Hi Portia, glad you enjoyed the henhouse story. Hi Farmer Grossman, how ya goin'? I'm talking to you again. Thanks for the affirmation the other day. Anonymous here appreciated it.
Portia, that idea about couples therapy with some of the people I've been entwined with is a scary thought. I wonder how I'd cope with hearing their versions in a cold structured environment. That's a hard one to comprehend. I think with some we wouldn't get past the greeting.
It'd be a total Monty Python kit.
Me, "Hi, nice to see you."
Other, "Why'd you say nice to see you. You haven't rung me for 75 years. Don't try and play the nice guy."
or
Me, "Hi, glad to see you."
Other, "No you're not, don't lie."
And these are supposed to be the most important people in my life. :shock:
I think with some, like my mother, I've worn myself out trying to get her viewpoint. She's rammed it down my throat. Her cronies have rammed it down my throat as well. And I really wanted get it too. It would have simplified everything, if I could see things her way. I would have been so happy so to be wrong about her, and a few others. But I had completely opposing values to her, to them, so it was not to be.
That is a funny story about your husband having a conversation with you in his head. I can relate to that. It's better than thinking you've woken up gone to the toilet then gone back to be. Then you wake up.....as the midnight surfer.
Nice talking to you.
Guest
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how much memory can be affected and influenced by our values. And how values drive our imagination
Thanks for making the remark as it helped me understand the difference better between a T and an F (and remembering the post you made about understanding the world from an F vs T perspective on another thread). The statement is true for an F but unlikely to be true for a T - so what you said here demonstrates your 'F'-ness. As far as I understand it, a T wouldn't say that. It's just a totally different take on the world. That's why we (all of us in the world) often have great difficulty in understanding each other.
I know that lots of people have gone 'huh?' at where I'm coming from - and seeing so very many people being 'I' on this board most probably has something to do with it.
'Can't you detach?' My response is 'No' with a kind of incredulous question mark (like, 'whoich planet are you from'!) :D When two opposites collide, it's often that kind of 'which planet' feeling (or whatever the equivalent of that reaction is for a T.)
I can relate to people or see people relating to each other and i'm totally 'in the zone' - then I might see the same people relating to each other and not know what connection is going on, what there is to 'understand'. What passed me by? Probably one of those 'polar opposites' at play. I tend to skip over the stuff that people write that I don't understand. Reckon it's none of my business to understand (otherwise I'd be asking questions til kingdom come and still wouldn't 'get it').
Memory and childhood.
Whooo! My 'classic' is having a memory come up from within my 'feelings' of being a toddler and someone pushing me over but then suddenly years later 'knowing' that never happened. I was a toddler learning to walk - nobody pushed me; I sat down on my bottom with a thump. That's terrible to realise I thought someone pushed me!!!
And being in hospital aged 6 - I had a doll and my mummy (!) sowed a special button on it - a magic button so that when it hurt I just had to rub the magic button and it would all get better. The child next to me screamed and cried when her mother left so the nurse asked me to give my doll to the other child. And I never got it back so I never did get my magic button. But for many years I believed it was my mother who had asked me to share the doll. Well, authority figures - they're all the same person really! :wink:
(:idea: Why is it that I'm always 'good' like I'm asked to be and then end up with the short straw!)
But some really strange things can happen, too.
After seeing that inexperienced therapist, and two years in group therapy getting my identity back in one piece, I was desperate for further therapy with someone, anyone, on the basis that there was some terrible secret lurking beneath the surface waiting to be told. I didn't know what it was but I feared it had something to do with sexual abuse (I didn't say that of course - too dreadful to say the words). I was sure they'd think that this was just me trying to get attention or five million other things I could think up and gave up in the finish. (Probably just as well as you will see...)
I didn't believe that any of those 'memories' ('feelings'? thoughts?) about child sex abuse could have been true - they didn't make any sense at all. I once tried to talk to my mother about it and she went crazy - I think I probably only got about two words out - I wasn't about to accuse anybody of anything but she went AWOL. So all that got shoved back into the cupboard - don't think, don't feel.
But a few years ago my cousin told me that HER mother (my mother's sister) had revealed just before she died that she had been abused (raped?) when she and my mother were little girls, away visiting somewhere in the country. I still don't know what the facts of it all were - whether my mother was there, involved, or just carrying the same 'unknown' burden of a terrible secret - but I had the most enormous sense of relief when my cousin told me - like the secret I was carrying (I?) was finally out in the open. I tell you - massive physical, mental and emotional relief. 'Oh thank God - you mean it really happened!'. (A highly inappropriate response but it just lurched out of me, goodness only knows where from)
So who knows what's real and what isn't. The 'memory' (or 'knowledge') was 'real' for me but it wasn't 'mine'. It wasn't 'me' who had the terrible secret - it was my mother - but somehow it had become 'mine'. (BUT who's going to believe me?) (Back in the old, well-worn, boring, tedious groove!!!)
R
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I believe you R. Maybe some of it is passed through genetic memory? Through the cells? Maybe it was just passed through body language when you were a wee babe. Maybe when you were the same age as your Mum was when that happened she told you to beware of strange things and in the story you picked up some truth? There’s so much we don’t know about how people communicate.
but she went AWOL. So all that got shoved back into the cupboard - don't think, don't feel.
Maybe she wasn’t saying don’t think or feel, maybe she was saying ‘don’t talk about that – too much feeling for me’? Abused children feel guilty and the one who saw and witnessed is just as abused as the actual victim etc etc. And maybe guilty that you ‘knew’? Guilty that she’d passed the memory on? Many, many questions! (I can easily ponder this type of stuff without getting upset because I’m after answers. Digging away, ouch that was a nail in the soil but never mind, where’s that sealed box of stuff
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Look forward to reading the story!!
Sure, I do see with today's mind and brain that I had touched that 'nerve' (yet again). But I was in my late 20s, still struggling with trying to make sense of life at the time, not realising that what I was really struggling with was my relationship with my mother (and my 'therapist'!). :roll:
'Everyone' still thinks even today that I am some recalcitrant teenager escaping from a suffocating mother and that I should have gotten over it by now and be repairing bridges. I can't be sure that's not the case. I may yet still discover that it's me who needs to 'grow up' - or that we are simply competing with each other in a grand folie a deux - each trying to outparent the other!! ? I'll look after you. No, I'll look after you. No, I'll...just open the door and leave. (It was me who broke the 'deal' and she really wasn't ready for it. She felt 'abandoned' and enraged - probably deep down just plain indignant - "after all I did for you"!!!).
What I should have said to my mother a long time ago is "It's not my job to provide you with someone who needs you" (rather than just turn my shoulder to the 'grinding' stone, put on my T Rex suit, to stop her invading me, and block her out). Of course there's a quivering wreck of a child hiding behind that suit. She shamed me again and again with her rages and tantrums and spiteful sarcastic words).
Things are 'fine' if I 'need' her. She recounts the one time I phoned up in need of a friend after I left home. Things were pleasant then. She acted 'normal'. But I don't trust her not to take advantage of my need - in order to tie me by her side and thus fulfil her need for someone to need her (still with me?!!). She's happy, in charge, confident. (If someone 'needs' me, so am I - maybe I've been hurt many times that she's refused my help? Maybe I'm just plain revolted that my 'need' feeds her. I can't bear her to touch me. I'm used, tainted.)
My H doesn't 'need' me - it's much safer, saner. I 'need' him (his sanity, his logic, his castle wall boundaries) but I think it's not the same. I 'need' those things to lead a healthy, independent life in 'connection' with somebody else. My son doesn't 'need' me either. I'm sad to say. I feel I've failed as a mother.
Take 2 : (frowns) Yikes! Is that success as a mother?????????????
"Whatever" :roll: :wink: (The answer is neither)
The fact is - what I've referred to is a folie a deux - that's me plus her - who's to blame and why is irrelevant. I can say it's both of us. But she doesn't want out and I do. If this was someone describing a marriage (like many on this board) I'd say - Brilliant - you got the message - so get out now!!!!! I can't bear to see people getting sucked back in.
But I bow very slightly to the concept of filial loyalty. I shall write back and 'demand' rationality I shall find a kind way of saying : "When we can get some rationality in our written communication THAT's when I'll have confidence to call you. Compare what I wrote with what you wrote back." Maybe she'll never manage it and I'll be free. :twisted: (Doubt it, Ns are far more conniving than that!!!)
I see I've found more words to make it easier to understand today : 'she felt indignant'. Except...the indignation has lasted 30 years! Maybe if she could have beaten the hell out of me, she could have gotten it out of her system (I've given her enough opportunities!?) - she's been doing it with twisted words instead - she's all twisted up wanting to be the 'good guy' in the pack (meanwhile I don't see why I should be the 'bad guy'!)
I wonder what I can do to make us 'both' the good guys when I'm so angry, too - partly because I've had to be the grownup for so long and 'take it' and 'take it' and 'take it'???!!!!! An impossible question.
R
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It's just a totally different take on the world. That's why we (all of us in the world) often have great difficulty in understanding each other.
I know that lots of people have gone 'huh?' at where I'm coming from - and seeing so very many people being 'I' on this board most probably has something to do with it.
'Can't you detach?' My response is 'No' with a kind of incredulous question mark (like, 'which planet are you from'!) :D When two opposites collide, it's often that kind of 'which planet' feeling (or whatever the equivalent of that reaction is for a T.)
So who knows what's real and what isn't. The 'memory' (or 'knowledge') was 'real' for me but it wasn't 'mine'. It wasn't 'me' who had the terrible secret - it was my mother - but somehow it had become 'mine'. (BUT who's going to believe me?) (Back in the old, well-worn, boring, tedious groove!!!)
R
Hi Rosencrantz, I think the equivalent to the 'which planet' thing for a T is, "This doesn't make any sense to me at all," or "Why don't you use your brains for a change!"
And the "Can't you detatch" thing. They may as well say, "Could you stop being, please?" Hell, we have been detatched from what's been going on (in some awful ways) all our bloody lives. And it's caused us to be cast adrift, isolated, Robinson Crusoe-ish for most of our frickin' lives. I feel like saying to them, these well-meaning, ignorant, thanks for f*@#*in' nothin' types, "You go detatch. OKAY!!!! And don't you DARE try to tell me what to do, EVER AGAIN, OR I'LL RIP YOUR DAMN HEAD OFF YOUR SHOULDERS AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ARSE!"
But I don't, you know what I do. I implode!
And then I meekly wander off, sometimes embarrassed, and try to detatch, like they suggested. And then guess what happens? I get even more confused by it, (what I got stuck on) the next time.
AND you know why? Because some dickhead gave me crappy advice that I took. And so I never got to go through, work out or analyse what the hell it was that bothered me so much or why!
So the twisted cycle goes on. Till I learn to say nicely, "No I won't, but thanks for your advice anyway. I'm learning to know what's good me. And I know detatching right now would not be good for me, because I need to learn something here, and I can feel I'm going to learn something really valuable in this exploration and experience. Now you can either help me here, or get out of my way. And please don't tell me what to do?"
Aaah, that felt good!
And about that last bit, memory and what's real, I had a thought.
Maybe F's later in life, remember the events through how it made them feel. Their acute detail is in everything they felt. And actual order and events memories are secondary.
Maybe the T's remember the events in perfect detail and perfect order, and focus on actuals. And how and what feelings were affected are secondary.
Some parts of the last bit, about it being your mother's memory, I don't quite get. That's okay, I'm not expecting you to explain. But it connects with me somehow???
Guest.
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I’ve really had to put some thought into all of your posts, guys (is it okay to call you guys? :) ). I guess I’ve kind of taken for granted how I use imagination as a tool (or that I even use it as a tool! :oops: :D ) and it took a while for me to start to break it down, but I'm glad I did. There's a lot of interesting stuff here with memories and imagination. Thanks for pointing that out Guest! :D
People used to listen to me talk (teens, early 20s), smile and say “you’re crazy!” I guess meaning ‘what odd thoughts’ but I can say now, it was both flattering to my mind and I also wanted to punch those people for making me wonder if it was true.
I want to start by saying that people use to tell me my ideas were crazy in the same way, Portia. I don’t think I would have had the courage to talk about the imagery I mentioned above if my therapist hadn’t validated my use of it. And I trust her because she’s straight with me and places a heavy emphasis on helping me get to the reality of situations I face – even if it means I’ve got something wrong.
So here's something we're all familiar with: Say there’s someone in our lives who, whenever we’re around them, we feel bad about ourselves (hard to get that perspective when you’re born into it, but I’m just trying to talk this through). We don’t know up from down, and we can’t tell who’s fault it is – or whether it’s even right to ask that question. Then we learn about Narcissism. It’s a framework, or a lens, that helps us to identify abusive behaviors and the characteristic traits of N’s. We take this lens and use it to look at the people in our lives – especially those who make us feel bad. Does the lens fit? Does the picture come into focus? Even if it’s not perfect, if it’s better and eases some of our confusion, it may be worthwhile to stay with this lens for a while. See if there are more patterns we notice. Test it out.
I guess this is what I’ve been doing with my imagery, my stories. I have an uncanny memory for conversations, but it’s true that I don’t have 100% confidence in my other memories. Images and stories give me a way to tie my memories together when all I have is just a loose collection of memories with lots of gaps and question marks. When I first began “reconstructing” my life, I used the image of a bunch of islands of memory. They were tiny and scattered, like Hawaii. The model worked for me and gave me motivation to “connect the dots” so to speak. To set a goal to be able to "walk" from one island to the next someday. I never actually believed that these islands were real, though. :D
So by using bits of facts gathered from talking to people who were around, comparing whatever perspectives are available to me - and making those islands bigger, my story has gone from:
I loved pre-school and kindergarten and I was happy. I did really well in first grade and my teacher really liked me (though I got some grief for being a teacher’s pet). But then all of a sudden I was being pulled out of class in third grade for being disruptive and I started failing in school and people stopped liking me. In fact, since third grade things have been pretty horrible. What happened?
To (and in answer to your question, Guest, about whether the event was internal or external):
When I was between the ages of 2 and 8, my mom was dating a man I adored and who I have no doubt loved me. He took care of me as if I were his daughter. He carried me to bed, picked me up after school every day, tickled me until I got the hiccups and couldn’t breathe…in short, he did everything that responsible, caring, nurturing parents do for their children. And then he left. Since my mom and her boyfriend weren’t married, no one thought to recognize the impact of their break-up on me. Including my mother. And the handful of times I saw him after their split, I was only able to see him for a few minutes before my mom sent me to bed. I wasn’t a child of divorce. He was just a boyfriend. It was terribly painful to lose him. But just recently, by looking at pictures of myself at that age, I understand that I would have been okay if I’d been given a chance and the support I needed to be able to heal. If someone had been there to play with me and hug me until the pain went away, I wouldn’t have suffered so long. Instead, my life became a struggle to survive in a household of emotional neglect and abuse and borderline physical neglect. Oh, and I wasn’t allowed to do most of the activities my friends were doing whether it was because they were too expensive, my mother didn’t feel like driving, or my mother deemed these activities to be below us. I went insane because I was a (shy?) extrovert stuck in a cave with little but imagination banging around in my head.
I don’t remember all of this in the sense that others have had to give me their memories for me to be able to connect the dots, by my memories, as hazy and foggy as they were, gave me a place to start. They were my voice. :)
And Guest, I just saw that you posted, and I completely agree that even when we can’t create timelines, we can still learn so much from what our memories have to tell us about how an experience made us feel. (I'm not sure I understand the T alternative, but maybe that's because I'm an F :D.)
Which is why I might dig a little deeper into this memory, R, unless you’re really comfortable that this memory is resolved.
my 'feelings' of being a toddler and someone pushing me over but then suddenly years later 'knowing' that never happened. I was a toddler learning to walk - nobody pushed me; I sat down on my bottom with a thump. That's terrible to realise I thought someone pushed me!!!
How did you find out that you were wrong? And maybe you felt pushed because your mother is always pushing your emotions around. I don’t know, of course. It's just a thought. :)
So back to the idea of being a parent for myself, or even imagining my shell to be a person. I don’t really believe these things, but they do really help me sort out my feelings – and even allow me to take steps that would be too overwhelming otherwise. They help me get beyond emotional paralysis.
And the "Can't you detatch" thing. They may as well say, "Could you stop being, please?" Hell, we have been detatched from what's been going on (in some awful ways) all our bloody lives. And it's caused us to be cast adrift, isolated, Robinson Crusoe-ish for most of our frickin' lives. I feel like saying to them, these well-meaning, ignorant, thanks for f*@#*in' nothin' types, "You go detatch. OKAY!!!! And don't you DARE try to tell me what to do, EVER AGAIN, OR I'LL RIP YOUR DAMN HEAD OFF YOUR SHOULDERS AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ARSE!"
Thanks for the vent! :D :D I’m so with you guys on that one! I’ve learned that sometimes I need to cut myself off and go for a run or something because I’m just thinking in circles and getting nowhere. But when I’m on hot on the trail of a new idea, there’s nothing that makes me feel more hostile or even worse about myself than any of the following:
Let it go.
Relax!
I just wish you could be happy!
You’re overreacting.
You’ve gotten all worked up over nothing.
Oooo, but I could go on…… :evil:
Anyway, I feel like there’s probably a lot I’m missing here, but this feels right :wink: :D and I wanted to share it with you guys. :D
Wildflower
P.S.- I’ve been zeroed in on this question of imagination as a tool so I hope you won’t mind if I haven’t commented on some of the other important observations you guys have been making. :D
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When I was between the ages of 2 and 8, my mom was dating a man I adored and who I have no doubt loved me. He took care of me as if I were his daughter. He carried me to bed, picked me up after school every day, tickled me until I got the hiccups and couldn’t breathe…in short, he did everything that responsible, caring, nurturing parents do for their children. And then he left. Since my mom and her boyfriend weren’t married, no one thought to recognize the impact of their break-up on me. Including my mother. And the handful of times I saw him after their split, I was only able to see him for a few minutes before my mom sent me to bed. I wasn’t a child of divorce. He was just a boyfriend. It was terribly painful to lose him. But just recently, by looking at pictures of myself at that age, I understand that I would have been okay if I’d been given a chance and the support I needed to be able to heal. If someone had been there to play with me and hug me until the pain went away, I wouldn’t have suffered so long. Instead, my life became a struggle to survive in a household of emotional neglect and abuse and borderline physical neglect.
But when I’m on hot on the trail of a new idea, there’s nothing that makes me feel more hostile or even worse about myself than any of the following:
Let it go.
Relax!
I just wish you could be happy!
You’re overreacting.
You’ve gotten all worked up over nothing.
Oooo, but I could go on…… :evil:
Anyway, I feel like there’s probably a lot I’m missing here, but this feels right :wink: :D and I wanted to share it with you guys. :D
Wildflower
P.S.- I’ve been zeroed in on this question of imagination as a tool so I hope you won’t mind if I haven’t commented on some of the other important observations you guys have been making. :D
Hey, this zeroing in was good stuff, and thanks for clarifying the question about when your world changed. I know what you mean. I had a similar experience. One of my mother's live-in's de-facto's sort of affected me like that. I guess she was with him from when I was 5 or 6 years old to 8 years old.
He was an interstate truck driver named John and he was wonderful. I remember one time she belted into me, or started to, and he intervened and took me for a shoulder ride to the corner shop, bought me an ice-cream, and gave me shoulder ride home. I felt so comforted. And other times too, he'd take me for walks to the corner store and buy me a treat. Or would bring me home little trinkets from his trips. It was so exciting when he'd bring his bag in and say something like, "Now what's in here." When friends came over to booze and play cards. I remember him arguing with my mother to let me stay up, so I was allowed to stay up late, he had me on his lap and I helped him play cards, and then he gave me the credit when he won. :)
He was completely above board and appropriate in his dealings with me too, no funny business.
He was so WONDERFUL. :) She asked me to call him dad, so I did and I really really fell in love with him. :) I have photo's of him and me. Him hugging me. And when he was home he used to read to me. Amazing, he had such warm personality. And he used to not mind if I slept in bed with them. He never yelled or fought with my mother, and often stood up for me to my mother. She had such a hair trigger. Then he just wasn't there one day. Poof, vanished. And I never saw 'dad', John, again. :shock:
She told me he'd been signed up and been sent Vietnam. :cry: A few weeks later she told me he had been killed, driving a truck which was blown up, it had run over a landmine. I was devastated. :cry: I mean, I was 8 and now I'd lost my second father. And within no time she had a new bloke moved. And I wasn't supposed to mention 'dad' at all.
This seemed an impossible ask, but I complied. I wasn't allowed to make any reference at all to one of the nicest people I'd ever known, and I wasn't allowed to ask any questions, or grieve. She just told me he was dead and that was it. End of story. So I never did. Till I was about 35 years old.
Now I pause here, pause.......,from when I was about 8 till 35 I'd thought about him a lot at different times, but in all that time I'd never bought him up, not to her or anyone else. Then, one day, I don't know why, but I confessed to her how much I missed him.
She made some curious comment about how 'they' never leave their wives, "they' just like their little bit on the side." I said, "But isn't he dead?You told me he died." And she laughed and said, "Yeah, well I had to tell you something. He went back to his wife and kids. And anyway, I had a new relationship with Jim, and I told John I didn't want to see him anymore. He wasn't going to ever leave his wife anyway, and I was just his interstate bit on the side."
She told me where he lived, and stories about how she had written to his wife, and how once when he was away, she'd gone interstate and went to his KIDS school, and introduced herself to his KIDS! And told them who she was. Oh my goodness. She'd completely freaked them all out. She told the kids the 'truth' about how he hated their mother, and how their mother didn't 'satisfy' their father, and how he was in love with her. Oh my goodness!
I can't imagine how awful it was for all of them. My mother invents ways to hurt people. He didn't know what he was letting himself for when he hooked up with my mother, but I'm glad he got away from her. And apparently his wife took him back, and he promised his wife he'd have nothing more to do with my mother or me. And my mother hated him by then anyway, and threatened to get one of her detective boyfriends onto him if "He showed his face anywhere near us." Oh my goodness, what a mess. So, my attachment was only a couple of years, but funny how it has a similarity to yours Wildflower, isn't it.
Wow, I'm a bit worked up after writing that. I had some other thoughts to add on the venting thing, but they've disappeared at the moment. I think I need a walk. I've given up the fags for nearly 3 weeks now, and after writing this, I really want one. Pathetic isn't it? No, I won't go and buy a pack, the urge will pass. Going for a stroll. I'll be back.
Guest
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Dear Guest, I feel worked up having read about your ‘Dad’ John and all the love he gave you and whoosh! You don’t matter, he just disappears and your mom takes no account of you. Did you ever see him again? You poor little girl, having had such a kind man in your life. If only you could have gone and joined his family!! Why do people have no bloody compassion?
Don’t go back to the fags please – 3 weeks is the hardest time isn’t it? I don’t know, I’m still in ‘beat myself up by smoking’ world. Good on you Guest, not doing this slow suicide job on your body! Let me know how you get on….you could well be my inspiration….P
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Yes, the venting thing.
I wonder about the 'real' motives of people who tell me, "Relax, don't get your knickers, etc, just let it go." The peace makers, who try to convince me that I analyse too much, and that it's bad for me, or dangerous.
I just don't get it. I bought a game years ago by Edward De Bono, with all the different coloured hats. And with a problem you had to put on a different coloured hat which represented a different thinking style. It was good stuff, even though it was directed mainly at corporate problem solving.
But the thing is that in corporate problem solving, when facing a corporate crisis or difficulties you don't hear people saying, "Your're over-reacting, let it go. Don't make such a big issue out of it."
No, quite the opposite. You're actually expected to investigate every damn step that led the troubled corporation to it's catastrophic point, so that you can hopefully correct the problems, and prevent repetitions in the future. A big part of this is talking to department managers and staff, and indepth questioning them.
What if a participant or observer said, "Oh, give it a rest" then. Huh? That would be recognised immediately as both ridiculous and suspicious.
I wonder if the anally retentive who tout these guilt trips aren't actually trying to justify their own weak way of dealing with life. Aaahh, another vent. That felt good.
That'll do for now, have a good Easter,
Guest
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Hi Portia, no I never saw him, and he's probably nearly 80 now, if he's still alive. Sigh, I don't know, but after I found out what she did to that family I was just so ashamed. It's hard to explain, but it's sort of connected/associated shame I've often found I have about things she's done. I'm so ashamed of her, and I'm her daughter, so I'm ashamed of me too. Blaaah, I haven't quite worked that out yet either.
And as for the fags, I just figured there'd never be a right time, or an easy time. The final straw was I read a story about a guy (smoker) with inoperable lung cancer. Yuuuk!!!! He was 42, only been smoking for 7 years, married, father of 3 young children, only diagnosed 8 months ago, died last month. His last 8 months were the worst thing I've ever read.
And the slow suicide thing. I know what you mean. It is, isn't it? But there are better and cheaper ways to go! :D :D :D Joke. No, I wish they'd make fags illegal. I wouldn't have bought them then. I'm not the type to buy things on the black market. I'm too paranoid.
Anyway, thanks for the post Portia.
PS, Aaah, mother dear mother, I really didn't want to be thinking about you today. I wonder what little drama you're creating or whose life you're wrecking today! I'm so glad I'm out of it.
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Wow, Guest. We really do have a lot in common. I think I understand your feelings of shame about John, too, but we can save that topic for a rainy day – or at least, a day when you want to hash out more mother stuff. :wink: :)
I completely understand about the smoking, too. I quit in October, 2000, but I couldn’t do it cold-turkey. I did the whole nicotine patch step-down system – and even that wasn’t enough so I had to use the gum for a month or so after that. :roll: :) Took me a little over two months to kick it, but once you make up your mind…. Stick with it!! It’s worth it! :D
Have a Happy Easter! :D
Wildflower
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What I should have said to my mother a long time ago is "It's not my job to provide you with someone who needs you" (rather than just turn my shoulder to the 'grinding' stone, put on my T Rex suit, to stop her invading me, and block her out). Of course there's a quivering wreck of a child hiding behind that suit. She shamed me again and again with her rages and tantrums and spiteful sarcastic words).
My H doesn't 'need' me - it's much safer, saner. I 'need' him (his sanity, his logic, his castle wall boundaries) but I think it's not the same. I 'need' those things to lead a healthy, independent life in 'connection' with somebody else. My son doesn't 'need' me either. I'm sad to say. I feel I've failed as a mother.
Take 2 : (frowns) Yikes! Is that success as a mother?????????????
"Whatever" :roll: :wink: (The answer is neither)
I shall write back and 'demand' rationality I shall find a kind way of saying : "When we can get some rationality in our written communication THAT's when I'll have confidence to call you. Compare what I wrote with what you wrote back." Maybe she'll I wonder what I can do to make us 'both' the good guys when I'm so angry, too - partly because I've had to be the grownup for so long and 'take it' and 'take it' and 'take it'???!!!!! An impossible question.
R
I've highlighted these parts up here because they've stuck in my head, and I wanted to comment, (even though after reading your Bubbles thread I can see you've integrated much of what you said here, so have moved on) on this Rosencrantz. I get an image of a parent, child, parent triangle. You know, like the persecutor victim triangle. And we move around the triangle, maybe we get stuck in one point, or like it in one point.
Like your mother Rosencrantz. Sounds like she's been stuck in the child point, or likes it there. And at some time, way, way, way back, you moved to the parent point and she liked it, (heck, maybe even you liked it for a moment,) so she's kept pushing you back there, every time you try to get out, and go back to the child point. Anyway, that's where this took me, and it's been gnawing away at me, so I thought I'd express it. Hope that's okay.
I do admire how I see you are working so hard on sorting through all this 'stuff'. You seem so determined to keep your son out of being drawn into this Child/Parent/ triangle. Just determined to let him be 'Child'. And that is right, and worth every bit of effort it takes.
And I love your analogy of the T-Rex suit. When you posted that here and somewhere else where I talked about my suit I wear. That picture I have of you in your T-Rex suit, crashing about is so priceless :D :D . Hilarious.
Thanks
Guest
And Hi to you Wildflower, I wanted to say thankyou for all your encouragement and support. After I posted yesterday, re John, I forgot why I posted. I got so caught up in those memories, trying to sort out reality from imagination again. Then I realised all I really had to look at is how it all makes me feel, NOW. That seems to be the only valid reality I need concern myself with at the moment.
I wanted to say thanks for sharing that detail of your life, and how much I could relate to your loss of that man in your life. I haven't spoken about John, ever, to anyone but my mother, and that was only that one time. She'd go too nuts if if I 'harped'. I've never known anyone with the same experience. Probably lots of us out there. Who knows? But I know how hard it must have been for you. The unrecognised position meant unrecognised loss and grief and is a very difficult pain thing to explain, I find anyway.
Once again Wildflower, thankyou for sharing that story. I didn't realise how much I'm still affected by my experience till I went for a walk after I posted it. I was burning with anger at the old witch once again. Not too far moved along in the healing process here but never mind, let's call it " A Work In Progress." And surprisingly enough, I'm enjoying the journey.
Thanks and have a Happy Easter
Guest
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Hi Guest,
I’m really glad that by sharing experiences I was able to be helpful in some way. It’s comforting to know that such negative stuff can be turned into something positive.
About John, I just want to say that I also felt awkward and ashamed when I first started seeing my “good dad” again. I was my mother’s daughter, and I probably learned a lot of things from her that would hurt him, or remind him of her. At first, that may have been a little true because I was only beginning to sort stuff out in my own life, but he has been like a beacon to me. He is Home, and he's where I’ve been heading in so many ways for so many years. I don’t know if that applies in your case given that you were with John for a smaller amount of time, but I bet this does: I learned that my good dad was able to separate his feelings for me from his feelings for my mother. And I can tell from reading about how he stood up for you that John probably realized/realizes that you were in a tough position and he probably cares and wonders about you – even though your mother did such a terrible thing by confronting his family. Maybe you could write a letter to him and tell him what you’ve told us here about how you missed him and what a positive part of your life he was. And tell him how your mom told you he’d died in Vietnam, and how truly sorry you are for what she did in confronting his family. I don’t really know. So much time has passed that you may not want to approach him, but I bet he doesn’t hold anything against you – maybe the opposite. Anyway, it’s just a thought I had.
Wildflower
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Thanks for the comments and thoughts Wildflower, and I hope you had a good Easter. I took off with some books, got lots of reading in, and stayed away from chocolate and fags. I think it's fantastic the way the way you were able to reconnect with your "good dad." I wonder if that happens much, or if your experience is fairly unique.
Your comment about writing John a letter. I've thought about that a trillion times. I could do that, but I have a huge reluctance. It's like a 'disrespect' thing for me. In my personal life I have this issue with keeping agreements, being at appointments on time etc. I'm never ever ever late. EVER. And if I make a promise, I always, always, ALWAYS keep it. Even if it kills me. Really. For some reason, promises to me are holy. Mine and other people's.
I'm very harsh on myself in this regard, and I guess because I've known about his promise to his family, :idea: (Mother knows what a stickler I am for keeping my promises, and insisting othr's keep theirs) maybe she made this up too? Hmmm, never thought of that before) I have to respect that. If John promised his wife that he'd have nothing to do with us again, then that makes me feel very awkward. That woman never hunted me down, and terrorised me, or emabrrassed me in front of my friends, like my mother did to her children.
But, I will say this. I think I can find some way to acknowledge John now, as a part of my life. Like I said, I've got photos of us together and I think I might go buy myself a little frame, and pick out a nice one of us together and put it up out where I can see it. It always gives me such a nice warm feeling to look at the photo and remember him, so why not? And I don't have to worry about the Witch of Endor over-reacting to it. She's gone years ago. And I fear finding out he's dead. In my heart he's young and handsome and kind and out there somewhere making the world a better place.
Then I think of the old crow, and that makes me think of all the memories I had to bury to keep her stable, and as a result my world stable. Things she didn't want to be reminded of, and things I didn't dare remind her of or she's go nutso. Talk about suck the life from my bones.
That woman would wear 3 or 4 different outfits in one day. If she bought a matching set, (hat glove shoes and handbag), she'd buy the same set in 4 or 5 different colours. And change as many times in one day.
And I had to compliment. Uggh, (groan) all the time complimenting. Giving the 'right' answer to her, "How does this look? Does it make my bum look too big? But then men like something to grab onto, don't they? Can you zip me? Do you think I've got too much eyeshadow on? Look at my stomach, does it look bloated? Wait till you start getting your period, you'll know what I mean. If you don't keep up your appearances, there's always a prettier one out there who will." My emotional fatigues sets it about now remebering it.
I hated this talk so much. Even now I am the worst to go girlie shopping with, and I'm totally hopeless to have girl talk with about fashion. My eyes glaze over and I go into a trance, and start chanting in a robotic monotone "You look lovely, yes I think the blue dress and blue eyeshadow highlights your blue hair beautifully. It's a very appealing combination. Now I've done my duty, can I go and be sick now please?"
No, don't ask me at all, I'm no bloody help. Don't take me shopping if you need to buy new clothes, or ask me how you look. I'll say "Great! Fantasic! Ten Years Younger," and you'll come home with just 2 things. Bags of the greatest pile of hideous outfits, and the thought that I did it on purpose.
I just read what I've written and I'm saying to myself "How did I get here???" :shock:
I started talking about John, and how you suggested that maybe I could drop him a line, then I thought about mother, then I thought about her effect on me, and then I went to how her effect on me has retarded my ability to relate normally in so many ways. The I thought about how I don't bother so much with changing my retardation behaviours because I think it would take too long. I just try to be aware of them and not let them cause damage. For example, I tell my friends I'm no good to go shopping, and warn them, "Don't ask me for advice. It's lousy." This is about as good as it's gonna get I think.
I think if I devoted the time it would take to repair the damage she's done I'd have no time or energy left to be mother or friend or wife.
In my mind I liken it to the world's biggest messiest bunch of different coloured string. My mother has put me over here in a corner with this huge messy bunch of string, and it's as big as a house. My job is I have to unravel it and sort all the colours into their groups, and join the different colours together, and it's gonna take forever. Am I going to spend the next 20 years doing, if it's going to be perfect? And in the end all I'm gonna have is a big ball of string to lug around, THAT'S NOT MINE! It's just her legacy to me. Yikes!!!! :shock:
How much of my kids lives or making friends or spending time with friends would I miss out on? How tired would I be all the time? Too tired to enjoy MY LIFE. I'd be be over there somewhere, tucked away in some corner of life, neglecting my own things, and spending my life STILL FOCUSSING ON HER CRAP & SORTING OUT HER CRAP!!!!! :x and that would just end making me mad and resentful. At her for manipulating me and me for being a sucker.
So I'm adjusting to this, "I'm not going to be able to put all the peices of my life back where I'd like them to be, but I can at least remember them, and know where they'd go." :D
Does that make sense? Anyway Wildflower, sorry for rambling on and on.
I had planned to only make it a short one.
Guest.
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Hi Guest,
I took off with some books, got lots of reading in, and stayed away from chocolate and fags.
That sounds like such a nice, pleasant weekend! :D Wish I'd done that. Instead, I went digging around for more land mines. An ACON Easter egg hunt, I guess you could say. :roll: Found a couple live ones, too. I pondered detonating them for a few hours before I finally came to my senses and decided to wait for the bomb squad – AKA my therapist – to arrive. I think I just might be getting smarter. :roll: :wink:
Wow do I relate to what you said about giving compliments! Giving my mom a compliment is like going out in a yard full of dogs wearing a steak suit. To this day I have to prod myself to give someone a compliment, because I want to be nice – but I do not want to open the doors to the bottomless pit of need for affirmation (BPNA). :roll:
I think I can find some way to acknowledge John now, as a part of my life.
Maybe that’s all you need. There’s something so great about being able to gather rays of sunshine from the past. :D
My relationship with my good dad is really limited in that I talk to him once every few months, and it’s half so, so familiar in ways I can hardly describe. But the other half is filled with longing for what could have been and a realization that our lives have simply moved on, so I can see why you might want to keep remembering John how he was - even if your mom hadn't forced him to make that promise (wish I could punch her for you :evil: ). In some ways, there’s no going home. But I think there are ways of bringing home to us – like knowing RG’s dog is inside him now. :D
But reconnecting with my good dad is kind of a weird story and really relates to the whole memory discussion we’ve had here. It's a bit long, but it's really positive, and I just wanted to share it with you guys – especially after all the negative stuff that’s been clogging up my brain lately. :D
When I was in junior high, a couple of friends and I decided to make logos for ourselves. Silly junior high thing kind of thing to do. Among the cute puppies and pretty flowers and mangled attempts at horses, I came up with two very strange looking dogs. One was sitting up and one was kind of lying down, but both had very angular heads. My mom said that the sitting-up one looked like a Steinberg drawing, and I always thought the lying-down one looked like a normal lying-down animal with a Star Trek symbol for a head (you know those things on their suits they use to call the ship?). Weird.
That’s part one. Part two is that my mom had a massive collection of classical music – all records, of course. I think there might have been five or six non-classical albums in the entire collection. Anyway, every now and then I’d get this itch to find an album that I was never sure existed. All I knew was that there was a record that opened up and had comics inside. That’s it. Was it The Monkees? Was it that Rolling Stones album? Donavan? Let’s just say there are a few albums I now love because I used to listen to them every time wondering, is this it? Am I just nuts?
And then (part 3) in high school, some of my friends used to listen to one of the stations that played older rock music, and I started having these weirdo deja-vu experiences where I was convinced I knew the song, but I couldn’t imagine where I’d heard it since my mom had nothing but classical music!! I seriously thought I was losing my mind (well, I guess I was at that time :wink: ).
I saw my good dad once during high school, but before I went to see him, my mom got all weird and said “you know, he’s not the man you remember, he’s changed. Just be careful.” What was that supposed to mean? That really freaked me out and I was really nervous around him for the couple of ours we had lunch.
Well, my first summer after college, I went on a road trip around the southwestern US, and my first stop was in the same city where my good dad lived. I stayed a couple of days with his family (he had since remarried and had two kids), and it was SOOOOO WONDERFULLY DISORIENTING. :D :D
He took me water skiing for the first time, and I was terrible at it :oops: :D , and just when I was starting to beat myself up and get really frustrated, he leaned over the side of the boat and said something to me (sure wish I remembered what it was, though I’m sure it wasn’t “Relax. You’re just overreacting.” :wink: ), and my whole body relaxed. Right then, in the water, skiis pointing in every direction, I blurted out, “Was I a bad kid?” He was taken aback by this, of course, but he said, “No way. You were a really good kid. You were kinda sensitive, but a good kid.” I choked down a couple of tears, went for one more failed attempt at standup UP on the skiis :roll: , and got back in the boat.
When it was time to head back in, he tried to start the motor and nothing. Dead. He started opening up the motor and tinkering around (he’s a bit of a mechanic), and he cursed at it a bit. And then I really don’t know what happened to snap me out of it, but I kind of “woke up” sitting on the very front tip of the boat – the farthest place I could find from where he was. I knew right then that if it had been my biological father swearing at the engine, I’d be next in line for the swearing or whatever other scary stuff came next. I thought, “Wow, how conditioned have I become?? How abusive IS my dad?” I came back down and he was already laughing at himself about how his wife was going to kill him for forgetting to charge the backup battery. She’d be pissed about having to drive out to the lake to get him a new one. She did though. And we got back to shore. Laughing. :D And in the truck on the way home, he put on some music – and it was all the music I’d been hearing on the radio with my friends in high school. All of a sudden I knew where I’d heard it before, and I blurted out again, “Did you use to play this music in your band?” He replied, “Oh yeah, you don’t remember this?!? You used to know all the words and sing along with us during rehearsals. It was really cute.” :shock: :D :shock: :D
So now I’m reeling. Everything’s starting to make sense again and I feel like I’m coming out of a long coma. When we get back to the house, I figure, hey, why not, and I ask him about this mysterious record I’d been looking for over the years. He laughed (by this time he was really getting a kick out of all the weird questions I was asking him) and said yes, he had that album. He pulled it out, and there it was. :shock: I started tearing up. He sat me down on the couch and opened it up (there were the comics!! I wasn’t crazy :shock: ), and he pointed to one frame and said, “We used to listen to this every day after you got home from school. You always made me play this song over again.” I could hardly contain myself. And when he turned the page, there was the Star Trek dog I’d drawn in junior high – right there in the middle of the page!!! :shock: :shock: :D :D
That night, after he and his wife had gone to bed, I sat out on their back porch and knew that of all the discoveries I’d made in my life up to that point, this one was the biggest one. And I’ll never forget how the wind was blowing wildly that night, and that’s exactly how I felt inside – all stirred up and blowing in all directions.
So now, whenever I get a weird fuzzy image or yearning or thought that makes me wonder if I’m crazy, I think about how those strange moments pulled me closer to the truth – and I start digging.
Anyway, I know this was long, but thanks for letting me share this. :D
Wildflower
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Hi Guest,
Wore myself out telling my story :shock: , but I was still thinking about your string and your letter to John.
Your comment about writing John a letter. I've thought about that a trillion times. I could do that, but I have a huge reluctance. It's like a 'disrespect' thing for me. In my personal life I have this issue with keeping agreements, being at appointments on time etc. I'm never ever ever late. EVER. And if I make a promise, I always, always, ALWAYS keep it. Even if it kills me. Really. For some reason, promises to me are holy. Mine and other people's.
I'm very harsh on myself in this regard, and I guess because I've known about his promise to his family, (Mother knows what a stickler I am for keeping my promises, and insisting othr's keep theirs) maybe she made this up too? Hmmm, never thought of that before) I have to respect that. If John promised his wife that he'd have nothing to do with us again, then that makes me feel very awkward. That woman never hunted me down, and terrorised me, or emabrrassed me in front of my friends, like my mother did to her children.
First, I just want to say that I sooooooooo respect your insistence on keeping promises. I’m not very good at this, but this has been on my ‘bad habits’ list for a while – because I feel better when I keep my commitments, and by trying to do this, I’m forced to think about what I’m capable of doing, what my boundaries really are. It’s so great that you can do that.
But back to the letter. As I said above, maybe you don’t need to make contact with him again, but I keep thinking of these loopholes, I guess. Partly because I’m thinking of the letter more as something that would might feel good for you, but maybe the promises things would overwhelm any good feelings, I don’t know (though if your mom DID lie to you :evil: :evil: …..hmmm). You could leave it one-sided. Tell him he doesn’t have to break his promise and respond. Just tell him he was great and you appreciate what he did for you. But now I feel like I’m badgering you, which is not my intention.
About that string (love that image, btw). I’ve been playing with new idea lately. If you’re in the corner untangling a ball of colorful string, I’m in another corner trying to figure out whether it’s “Opposite Day” or not. I keep running head on into these mantras I used to use to beat myself up about not being a better person (“Why can’t I be x? Why can’t I do Y? Oh, I’ll never be good at Z”). Then one day one of them hit me (POW) smack in the forehead. What if I CAN be x? What if I’ve actually always WANTED to be X, and the fact that I keep beating myself up about it is actually my weirdo way of telling myself to do something I WANT to do. :shock: I had to convince myself that I didn’t want to do so many things when I was growing up (“Going to the mall is stupid. Cheerleaders are stupid.”). I had to do this so that I wouldn’t feel so bad about the fact that I wasn’t allowed to do these things (okay, maybe it wasn’t SO bad that I wasn’t allowed to be a cheerleader, you hopefully you get my point :D ). What I’m saying is, every time I hear this voice that sounds kind of negative at first, I wonder if today is Opposite Day and it’s really my weird way of saying “Please, please, can we do that today?” And suddenly things are just … easy. I’m not forcing myself to learn something new. I’m doing what, deep down, I really wanted to do in the first place. :shock: :D
Calling the funny farm on me, eh? Well, if you can be a hippo, can you have them put me in with the Dolphins, please?
Wildflower
P.S. - RG, I'm stopping for the night. No need to put any word restrictions on my account. Cutting myself off. Bye. :D
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OMG. This is one of the best things I've ever read:
In my mind I liken it to the world's biggest messiest bunch of different coloured string. My mother has put me over here in a corner with this huge messy bunch of string, and it's as big as a house. My job is I have to unravel it and sort all the colours into their groups, and join the different colours together, and it's gonna take forever. Am I going to spend the next 20 years doing, if it's going to be perfect? And in the end all I'm gonna have is a big ball of string to lug around, THAT'S NOT MINE! It's just her legacy to me. Yikes!!!!
How much of my kids lives or making friends or spending time with friends would I miss out on? How tired would I be all the time? Too tired to enjoy MY LIFE. I'd be be over there somewhere, tucked away in some corner of life, neglecting my own things, and spending my life STILL FOCUSSING ON HER CRAP & SORTING OUT HER CRAP!!!!! and that would just end making me mad and resentful. At her for manipulating me and me for being a sucker.
So I'm adjusting to this, "I'm not going to be able to put all the peices of my life back where I'd like them to be, but I can at least remember them, and know where they'd go." [/size]
Wow, Guest!
PS. After reading this whole thread; (and 'wow' to Wildflower and Rosen, (the it's not your job to be the person that she needs to need her = Right on!), too = I SOOO get what you guys are talking about...), I was wondering, Guest, why is it that you don't register; it's odd somehow, after everything I've read just in this thread alone, that you would want to remain anonymous for even one more minute.
Regards to all, Peanut
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Wow Wildflower, that story about your visit to your good dad's clearing out the clutter was amazing. "What a load off" experience. Can you imagine if you hadn't talked about any of that stuff at all to him? I wonder what that would have meant for your future perception of your own imagination.
And your good dad, what a lovely man, playing records with you. Then when you go and stay later, taking you skiing. Wow. And the swearing scenatio comparison. It's sad how we get programmed to expect certain flow-on reactions, like your dad. Something goes wrong, he swears and kicks the cat (you). And then someone else comes along and swears and just stops there, doesn't kick the cat. It's like "Hey rewind that scene. You didn't finish. I feel weird now." Other people aren't supposd to act differently to the way we are programmed to expect them to. Otherwise, we don't know what to do, and it's a bit of a jolt really and totally confusing.
It's a bit like learning the lines in a play. I've learned my lines to follow yours. But if you don't deliver the right line, the one I'm expecting, I'm stuffed and lost and confused. What a fabulous thing he showed you on that boat. That just because he had a problem he didn't feel the need or wasn't going to give you one too. You didn't get the blame. Isn't that good?
I know my memories of John may be exagerrated by my vivid imagination. Add to that the treatment I got from my mother being so gross, that it's possible that indifference would have seemed kind to me.
But regardless of how much my mind may have increased his kindness, there was still a good amount of kindness there to be thankful for. And I do appreciate it. And the same goes for that mother of mine. Regardless of how my imagination may have magnified her cruelty, she was completely and totally over the top in her cruelty to me and others.
And I shout to my mother in my head, "You're wrong mother, all men aren't bastards!"
And as for "Opposites Day" I think the equivalent might be, "Whatever I automatically think about trying something new, I should go the other way." I saw something like this on Seinfeld once. George had this revelation he shares excitedly with Jerry, "I've always made the wrong choices, so whatever I think from now on, I'm goin' the other way Jerry, go the other way!" That's probably not a bad philosophy sometimes for someone like me.
And hey, that ACON easter egg hunt line and detonating a few was so funny. The bomb squad, the therapist, funny stuff too. Thanks for the laugh.
By the way, why did your mum finish with your good dad? I forget if you've already said. Sorry. Did you understand why? Or did he finish with her?
And the ball of string thing came to me when I was reading some of Rosencrantz's recent posts. She's doing some really good work isn't she? And I have to admit I've been getting a lot out of it. I've also been getting a lot out of sharing with you too Wildflower. Thankyou both.
Oh no, I just gave you and Rosencrantz a compliment! :shock: Was I being genuine :?: or was I just saying it :?: . I always ask myself that nowdays. Funny and weird, this mind of mine sometimes.
Yes, I was being completely sincere and genuine, but I know I have to watch myself. I'm not disingenuous, but I am so extremely well trained in this, and can give an incredibly highly polished performance in the art of the "phoney compliment." I wonder if there is a demand for that skill anywhere.
Thanks Wildflower so so so much for sharing and reading,
Guest
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Dear Wildflower - as soon as I search for the words, the feelings subside. How to express...
The post about the ACON Easter Egg Hunt. Thanks for sharing the fun. And the rest - submit it to a magazine - it's the most wonderful story - do you realise how wonderfully you expressed it and what wonderful things you expressed??? I always think that when we are at our most authentic, it comes out as poetry. It was a riveting read. I was spellbound!!!
Did you realise how centred you were, how much love was inside that story, how strong you were??? It just oozes strength, composure, 'womanhood', riches of the heart.
I just wonder (and yet I know) why you haven't been living in the same State/town as your 'other' family since that time??! :wink:
Take care
R
PS I meant it about the magazine!!!
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Here, Here, Rosencrantz. It was so warm, touching, and insightful, just like Wildflower herself. Whenever I watch my music DVD's and see Tom Petty perform I'll think of Wildflower and how much her sharing here has meant to me.
Thanks Wildflower
Guest
And Hi Peanuts, welcome aboard. I'm glad you got something out of the ball of string.
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Thank you so much CG and R. :D :D As you can probably imagine, there isn’t really a story that’s closer to my heart than this one. And I’ve never really told the whole story before – partly because I’m afraid people won’t really understand, but I feel like you and others here do. So thanks for that. :D
Can you imagine if you hadn't talked about any of that stuff at all to him? I wonder what that would have meant for your future perception of your own imagination.
You know, I really can’t imagine because I don't think I would have made it this far. I feel so lucky to have had him and this experience in my life. That’s a big part of why I wanted to share my own experiences with and faith in my own memory and imagination – especially given the way you and Portia reacted to my straightjacket comment. Don’t get me wrong, though. I definitely still feel insane sometimes. (raising one eyebrow emoticon) :D
I don’t really have a good story on their break-up. Mom told me for years that she broke up with him because he was too irresponsible and she wanted to make sure I wasn’t exposed to that :!: (wow, I’m really hearing that now, and that’s just absurd :shock: !). :idea: Actually, she blamed all her breakups on me, giving one reason or another why they weren’t good for me – usually after I’d finally let them in and started to depend on them. :evil: Ooof. Anyway, when I try to talk to Mom about my good dad now, she starts weeping and talking about how he was the love of her life – which effectively prevents me from getting any facts or being able to talk about how difficult it was for me to lose him, too.
My good dad told me two things. He said that he wanted to marry my mom but she refused. Twice. And then he told me something that I really don’t know what to do with. He told me that I walked into their room one day after they’d been fighting and told them, straight up, “You’re not happy.” He said that hearing that from me made him realize that, no, he wasn’t happy. But he also said that it was so hard to leave that he took off to Greenland for a year (I remember the pictures) and buried himself in music and drinking. Boy did I mess that up. :roll: I shoulda said, “You’re not happy. If you leave, take me with you.” How bad can Greenland be? :wink:
When I found him again, I didn't move close to him because I wanted to 'get better' before trying to get too much back in his life. I know that may sound reversed, but while being with him woke me up, it also made me aware of how much work I had in front of me - how much damage I needed to 'undo'. So in the meantime, I've been maintaining contact with him while learning to look for the things I love in him in the people who ARE in my everyday life. :D
Something goes wrong, he swears and kicks the cat (you). And then someone else comes along and swears and just stops there, doesn't kick the cat. It's like "Hey rewind that scene. You didn't finish. I feel weird now."
Exactly. It was so disorienting. And you know, when I “woke up”, I couldn’t remember how I got on the very front of the boat in the first place. It was so, so strange. And wonderful. And liberating. Hmmm. All of a sudden I’m thinking of all the other less subtle times I’ve learned to stop expecting people to follow the lines. I’m sure there are others I haven’t learned yet.
But regardless of how much my mind may have increased his kindness, there was still a good amount of kindness there to be thankful for. And I do appreciate it. And the same goes for that mother of mine. Regardless of how my imagination may have magnified her cruelty, she was completely and totally over the top in her cruelty to me and others.
And I shout to my mother in my head, "You're wrong mother, all men aren't bastards!"
So true, CG. On some level, it really doesn’t matter how long and accurate the itemized list on either your mother or John is. John was kind to you (he doesn’t sound indifferent at all by the way you describe him), and he’s probably kind to many people. Your mom, just based on the few stories you’ve told so far, is, as you say, over the top in her cruelty. I wonder how anything she said/believed could really have been right? At least, gotten to by honest, heartfelt means? Maybe it’s wrong for me to say that, though.
I’ve been wondering for a while now - but wasn't sure if I should ask -about that 35 years that keeps cropping up. What happened to finally break your silence?
And the ball of string thing came to me when I was reading some of Rosencrantz's recent posts. She's doing some really good work isn't she?
YES!!! Again and again and again. Great work, R. :D :D :D
Did you realise how centred you were, how much love was inside that story, how strong you were??? It just oozes strength, composure, 'womanhood', riches of the heart.
That was such a nice thing to say. :D Thank you. :D No, I didn’t realize. I think I’m a different person (the pre/post/anything-but-in-between me) when I think/talk about him.
Thank you both so much for reading and hearing and sharing and… and … :D :D
Wildflower
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I definitely still feel insane sometimes. (raising one eyebrow emoticon) :D
Mom told me for years that she broke up with him because he was too irresponsible and she wanted to make sure I wasn’t exposed to that :!: (wow, I’m really hearing that now, and that’s just absurd :shock: !). :idea:
Actually, she blamed all her breakups on me, giving one reason or another why they weren’t good for me – usually after I’d finally let them in and started to depend on them. :evil: Ooof.
I’ve been wondering for a while now - but wasn't sure if I should ask -about that 35 years that keeps cropping up. What happened to finally break your silence?
Wildflower
My mother did a good job of getting me to doubt everything and everyone (including myself) EXCEPT her actions, choices and opinions. I used to think I was crazy because my life was crazy. I don't anymore, not seriously anyway.
When she found a new boyfriend she would hammer away at me to think he was fantastic too. She wouldn't be satisfied if I too didn't think he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then when she'd bust with him she'd educate me about how evil and depraved he was, and play the victim with me nursing her poor wounded heart.
And she always was able to justify to herself her cruelty to him by his supposed cruelty to her. And I often swallowed it. She would even occasionally use me as the reason they split. And I knew that was crap.
I used to feel sick when sometimes in a rage she'd make me look at her stretch marks on her stomach shreiking, "You did this to me. Look at what you did to me." Aaahhh please, I hope I never remember that again.
Hey, thank goodness when she had me she never had to be snipped and have an episiotomy!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: or she may have made me look at that, AAARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
Some mother's??????? leave me speechless. That's why these stories you tell Wildflower about your mother's efffect on you!!!! I'm sometimes speechless for a while. I feel a bit like a pinball machine, ping 150, ping 250, ping 350, ping 500, ping 1000, TILT!
But why did I break the silence. I think I was shocked, hurt, confused, angry and scared about something she'd done and I was trying to express and connect with her. I was probably using John's death as an example, saying something confrontational like, "You always ignore my feelings. Like when John died." I think I was trying to express my unexpressed grief and have her understand that my feelings about him and lots of other things were different to hers, but still valid. I wanted to tell SOMEONE, ANYONE, HER that I hadn't stopped loving him like she had.
I used to try to explain to her, "Just because I don't feel the same way about someone that you do doesn't mean I'm your enemy." She always expected me to like who she liked, and to hate who she hated. Otherwise I was disloyal and deserving of cruel and wicked treatment. And I had to embrace and replicate her feelings immediately. When and where she decided, on the spot. No time to think. Quick, hate him or her now. More than once I heard groaning from the bedroom and looked in and there she was, shagging away, her butt going 50 to the dozen, pleasuring some guy who just the day before was (according to her) the greatest arsehole ever created, and she'd told me I wasn't to let him in if he came to the door. :shock: Baaarf! Where's the bucket? Hey, but I could handle it, I was maybe 8 years old. I still get emabarrassed about this.
And what a shock, total confusion and extreme anger I had when I learned John hadn't died in Vietnam. Probably pretty much in that order too. Every visit of hers always ended up causing the same series of emotions in me. Fortunately her visits only happened once every few years. And like an idiot witha short attention span, I'd forget it, get over it and come back for more. All this seems like a million years ago somedays. Blaaaah. Fingers down throat!!! to get rid of the taste of her in my mouth.
Definition of Insanity = Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Thanks
CG
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Hi, it's me again, peeping out from under the rubble. The world just collapsed again, temporarily of course. I'm made of pretty tuff stuff.
I just remembered something I forgot to add. It's that I never know what to believe with my mother. Some of the ways I've witnessed her screw with people's heads would make your blood shiver.
I can't even believe her 100% that John didn't die in Vietnam. She's just the type to tell me that, and go away laughing at how stupidly I would be combing the interstate phonebooks. Making hundreds of long distance calls looking for a guy who died decades before ( and with a really common name). She would love that, it's just the sort of thing she would do.
Once, for my birthday, I don't know, maybe I was 5 or 6, she gave me this huge wrapped gift. She had few of her goodtime card playing buddies over that night. The gift was wrapped in colourful paper and it was huge. I was so excited and happy, and I started unwrapping, and unwrapping and unwrapping. Never ending layer after layer after layer of newspaper. The gift was geting smaller and smaller. Get the picture. The outside wrapping was wrapping paper, the rest was newspaper. I kept unwrapping and unwrapping. I eventually revealed a bloody coin as my birthday present, to go and buy something the next day. Ha Ha. Very funny. They all thought it was a hoot. She'd forgotten my birthday (her excuse later) and did this as a party joke. I remember I cried kept a brave face, but later cried myself dry.
Hard to believe, isn't it, that any person could do this to any child. I guess I have reluctances on many fronts re John.
CG
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More than once I heard groaning from the bedroom and looked in and there she was, shagging away, her butt going 50 to the dozen, pleasuring some guy who just the day before was (according to her) the greatest arsehole ever created, and she'd told me I wasn't to let him in if he came to the door
it's so horrible for children to be dragged into their parent's sexuality, so abusive. I've known several non-n people too who've done this in these supposedly 'enlightened' times, thinking they are teaching their children to be unrepressed or something...totally unacceptable blurring of boundaries.
Definition of Insanity = Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Yup, but how often we all go round the same cycles over and over.
Every visit of hers always ended up causing the same series of emotions in me.
it's horrible isn't it, one moment you're this confident capable adult, the next a helpless frustrated child again.
*sigh*
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Ah CG.
Hey, thank goodness when she had me she never had to be snipped and have an episiotomy!!! or she may have made me look at that, AAARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
You made me spill coffee down myself!! *Snort*.
Don’t be embarrassed CG, get the crap out if you want to. She blamed everyone except herself didn’t she? Even blamed you directly, out loud, for the stretch-marks. If only our child’s mouths could have retaliated with adult words like: “it was your rabbit-shagging that got you pregnant - your fault, not mine!” Typical, seeing you as just an extension of her, making you agree with her feelings, opinions, for what they were worth. But no real emotion at all? Sounds N in my book.
Just read your birthday gift post. Damn it. Suppressing my anger for you, ok? BUT what the hell made her go to the trouble of actually doing all that wrapping up? That must have taken a while? Or was it really *funny* to her and the *joke* kept her going at it?? Or maybe she thought it could be the pass-the-parcel game? Ha – no, as if you’d have had your own friends around! I am really angry for you. How bloody humiliating and crushing – especially in front of other people. She was nuts! P
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And what a shock, total confusion and extreme anger I had when I learned John hadn't died in Vietnam.
When I read that all I could think was - I'd want to kill her. Total, overwhelming, over-the-top rage. But remembering other things you've described from your past, I wouldn't put it past her to be messing you around either.
R
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Portia wrote: BUT what the hell made her go to the trouble of actually doing all that wrapping up? That must have taken a while?
I have to say, CG, I’m with Portia on this one. This was one of (ONE of) the first things I thought when I read your birthday gift story. I’ll add, what made her go through the trouble to think it through?? :evil: In the time it would have taken her to drive anywhere to get you anything that would have been a million times nicer and more caring….she does this??? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
CG wrote: I just remembered something I forgot to add. It's that I never know what to believe with my mother. Some of the ways I've witnessed her screw with people's heads would make your blood shiver.
What to believe? Well, from here, the answer seems to be NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. I know that, in the context of John, it would be nice to think that one of the alternate endings is actually true. And maybe that applies to other big question marks you have in your life from the past. But you can never believe her if, as you said, she could be messing with you by suggesting that he’s alive. This reminds me, in a much, much, much milder context, of how crazy it makes me to try to reconcile my mom’s versions of reality – and I actually believe that she means well. It makes me sick to get inside her head.
You got away though. And I hear in your stories that, well, they really need to be told. Again, I completely agree with Portia. Get this poison out of you, and don’t worry about being embarrassed. But I can also imagine how poisonous it could be to re-live these experiences? Whatever works for you, I want to support that.
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower, Rosencrantz, Portia
Yep, yep, yep. I shake my head too in wonder at the time it must have taken her. It's unbelievable, I know. I have so many similar stories, I won't bother to share. It all gets too boring after a while. Same plot, different victims. Oh, hang it, I will tell you this one. I was about 10 and it's sort of funny.
She loves chinese food, considers herself an expert on anything chinese, amongst other things. She went with a new boyfriend she wanted to impress to a well reviewed chinese restaurant. The food stunk according
to her and so she complained to the owner in her own unique caustic, authoritative, psuedo chinese food expert manner. The owner apparently was uncooperative and wouldn't replace the meals or refund. She calmly and graciously left the restaurant, not wanting to disgrace herself in front of her knew beau.
She came home furious and plotted her revenge which she executed with the precision of a swiss watch 2 weeks later on a Saturday night, the restaurants busiest time. She rounded up a whole bunch of LIVE STRAY CATS by scouring freebies and the local pound. She put them all in hesian sack, and in the middle of dinner time she walked into the restaurant (her girlfriend went along for the laugh) and threw the bag of cats on the counter and asked for the owner. He came out an she accused him of not paying his bill. He didn't know what the hell she was talking about.
She got louder and accused him of trying to do her in. When he got loud she opened the sack and shook it and a bunch of mangey screeching cats flew all over the dining room, and she shouted at him as she and her friend turned and hurried out, "That's the last lot of cats you'll be getting from me."
She came home laughing till her head fell off ( now that's the only part I exagerrated, I swear!)
It's unbelievable isn't it. And I know it sounds like it's made up, but it's not.
The time it took her to co-ordinate this :shock: , and the cats were accumulating in the house for days. :shock: And add to that that I know it really happened.
I agree with Portia, she's nuts and then some some. NPD probably the least of her problems. But an enlightening thought came into my mind today, as a result of reading through the different responses here from you and Rosencrantz and Portia and Write to mother's wrapped present. I saw a movie some time ago, I forget everything except the scene where the guy's been shot and has a bullet lodged near his spine. The doctor says it's to dangerous and there are too many risks associated with attempting to remove it. It's safer to leave it where it is. You'll be fine
and can live a long and happy life with it in there. No problems. So they left the bullet in. You get the picture. I feel the same way. I've think I have usually adopted to leave these cruelties buried and alone and hopefully they won't affect me at all if they are undisturbed???? Only her presence seems to disturb them, so I don't have her around. If that's avoidance, hey, it works for me! :D :D :D
I wrote the story of the wrapping paper, why I don't know??? I think it's your fault Wildflower ((hug)) :D :D :D :D and thankfully in doing that I realised there are too many things like this that she has done to me. If I had to dig around and get them all out I'd never have a life, and I'd look funny cause I'd be full of holes. You know, I'd look like Jim Carrey in The Mask when the gangsters hoot him up and he's full of holes and has a drink and all the water spurts out of him like he's a fountain.
Portia you made a new cliche, you know that old one about being "knee-high to a grasshopper", how about saying "Why I remember back when I was only face-high to a pubis."
Thanks write, but I never thought mother did any of this stuff to help me be either repressed or unrepressed. I don't think she gave me or my presence or welfare a second thought at all. Unlike the peole who you know who shag in front of kids, that have some purpose and seem to have given it some deliberation. But I agree, it's harmful. I won't go back to the commune horror stories. I've done that here.
Thanks so much, you're much appreciated
CG
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Thanks for the Chinese restaurant story CG. I would’ve laughed but I was too shocked. I guess that’s the delayed Narcissistic Rage in full flow? I wonder how easy it is for ‘them’ to delay like that. Yikes, a warning to all of us. You’ve made me realise that my ex-step-mother was an N too. I had little to do with her but that story sounded like her style and ‘pop!’ into my head it came.
And it explains a lot. I wonder how my half-brother (product of that marriage) is – haven’t heard or seen in 20 years and he was/is an ok bloke. Now his mother would’ve done exactly as yours did in the restaurant. Thanks for the ‘pop!’ moment. Another one recognised, catalogued and labelled: only several million to go. I feel like we’re in Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
Thanks for the new cliché – I haven’t laughed about that before! P
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Hi CG - I've sat pondering whether to say what's in my head and I've not got a conclusin to what I'm about to say but here goes...
You've said a couple of times about avoidance and denial being useful. And it if works for you, that's fine. I'm not about to 'tell' you that you shouldn't carry on in that way.
But I'm thinking of my own experience here. There came a point where the pain of it all just wouldn't stay away any longer.
Although my father's death was the final catalyst, the 'knowledge of the pain' had been stealthily coming upon me for several years - just 'seeping' out and into my awareness.
Like you, I wrapped up the right hand side of my brain, my 'preferences' for understanding the world and I bound it with my thinking side, my logical side. And I shut out the feeling side. Feelings (etc) were rigidly bound in a leather belt, a straightjacket, totally rigid so I wouldn't 'know'.
I get a picture of your mother. She was needlessly cruel, stupidly and vengefully cruel. Not specifically directed at you, you were just 'conveniently' available. Mine did her spitefulness 'out of mind', out of anger that I skipped out on her. Whatever she did when I was a child she did because she wanted everything to be 'nice', she wanted to control things so I could be the child she had once been and so she could give me all the things she'd wanted. So I see that it's different so the solutions may be different, too.
But a couple of years ago, a straw broke the camel's back. I slipped again. Me, the rigidly 'in control' person, I completely lost it!!! I just kept on making this terrible noise. Aaaaaagh, aaaaaagh, aaaaaagh. My H got me inside the house and I just carried on. All the pain of all the years. (I suppose that once upon a time they'd lock you away for that!!!) And then a couple of years later another crisis - just sobbing - why am I sobbing in response to my mother??? Then realising more and more.
So, what I'm trying to say is that it's seeping out. I'd look funny cause I'd be full of holes
Perhaps you're already looking like a collander! So you might as well unbung the whole thing and be in control of it than have it seep out in all sorts of unwelcome places and moments like I did.
I'd have said the same as you once upon a time - sorted, done and dusted. I got on with my life, I was effective, I had my career. I had relationships. I suppose I held my mother in contempt. I shook my head in disbelief at how 'beyond belief' she was.
But what I NOW realise is that all the things I achieved in my life were affected and damaged time and again by all the things that have come up in the past couple of weeks and now been resolved. And at the time I had no idea.
So, it's just a thought to share.
I'm not trying to hide my own anger from myself when I say I think that what you'll be dealing with is the biggest rage this side of Mount Etna!!! And I haven't got the fainest idea how one copes with that!!! I do know that I went through a couple of days last year when I nearly 'lost it' as a full awareness gradually seeped into every pore. But it was worth it for what came next.
Not sure - perhaps you can keep it buckled up forever. But what else is getting buckled up with it?? I'm not suggesting answers, just sharing thoughts...
Take care
R
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Like R, I’m wondering if I should say what I’m thinking about all the stories you must have in you – and how to get them out. I guess I don’t really think it’s a matter of whether to get them out. More like when. I think you’ve been saying this in a different way with the string analogy, but I want to try to restate it in my own words a little. I think this is such an important question/problem in the process healing.
If you were to roll up your sleeves and say, okay all you bad memories, time to come out now! I’m going to deal with each and everyone one of you right now and I won’t stop until I’ve gotten to the heart of all of you. Oooof. Oh, boy. You’d be crushed. You might make it through 3. Maybe even 10. But by 20, I suspect we’d be hauling you off to the hospital. Even if you COULD handle more, you’re right that you’d be missing out on life if you spent the next year solely examining these memories.
But sometimes, these memories come at US. And sometimes in floods. Because, I believe, we’re supposed to be dealing with them now. Now is the right time. And they’re tugging on our sleeves saying, listen. Listen. I’ve got something big to say. Some of these memories may be complex and may need to have a few pow wows with us over the years to finally get their message across. Some of them are concise little ‘ah-ha’ moments.
And then there are the times when we feel stuck (I’m really just brainstorming here, so who knows if this makes any sense). We feel trapped, and the memories don’t come at us – so we DO have to go in. But we need a lifeline when we do. Kind of like in Poltergeist (did you ever see that? I know you don’t like violent movies). They had to wrap a line around the dad so he could go into the spirit world to find his little girl. He almost got lost in there with her, but he had a lifeline, and he was pulled to safety holding Carol Anne – and covered in red jello. :lol:
I was thinking last night of asking you a question, giving you a framework, giving you a lifeline? But then I talked myself out of it because I think maybe you know the answer already and have said it – but I’m not hearing it. But is there a question you have for your mother? Or are these memories just cropping up? Is there something they’re trying to tell you?
Wildflower
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I guess that’s the delayed Narcissistic Rage in full flow? I wonder how easy it is for ‘them’ to delay like that. Yikes, a warning to all of us. You’ve made me realise that my ex-step-mother was an N too. I had little to do with her but that story sounded like her style and ‘pop!’ into my head it came.
P
Your comment made me think and I realised something. I think for my mother it is so very easy to delay, because revenge IS, (I repeat) IS her life. She could be a used as the dictionary definition of the word. The thesaurus version could have so many names of other mothers here. But my mother, to me, is like the world's No 1 Cordon Bleu chef of revenge. She will not be rushed, and all the ingredients have to be just right, and her timing is impeccable. And she loves the horror and shock and damage her revenge causes which somehow she interprets and receives as recognition and accolades and applause at her craft.
Your ex-stepmother, so she was married to your dad. Well then, you were lucky if you didn't have much to do with her. I can't imagine having my mother as a step-mother. I saw what she did to a few step-kids and de-facto step-kids she's had at different times. (Shudder). The poor things. She's so heartless, she could and used to turn their own father's against them (consciously and deliberately) and then brag about her techniques to me later. She can't share anyone.
That was the common theme with nearly all her guys, they were all so pussy-whipped and so easily manipulated to believe whatever lies she'd make up about their kids. She had great success in turning quite a few fathers against their own children! Their own flesh and blood. Bloody idiots.
Bye
CG
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She certainly seems to have that revenge thing down, no argument here. :roll: Yikes.
What was worthy of revenge in her book? Disagreeing with her? Breathing? The horrible things she did to those step-children....was she getting revenge on them, too?
Just curious...
Sorry...instead of posting yet another, I'm just going to edit this in:
My mother did a good job of getting me to doubt everything and everyone (including myself) EXCEPT her actions, choices and opinions. I used to think I was crazy because my life was crazy. I don't anymore, not seriously anyway.
I used to try to explain to her, "Just because I don't feel the same way about someone that you do doesn't mean I'm your enemy." She always expected me to like who she liked, and to hate who she hated. Otherwise I was disloyal and deserving of cruel and wicked treatment.
This has been sticking to the roof of my mouth for a couple of days. Am I pushing you? I really, truly hope not (but just say the word). Did she get you to doubt yourself by terrorizing you with the thought of revenge? Brainwashing you through fear?
I reeeeeeallly don't want you to feel like you have to answer this if it's too much (if it is, tell me and I'll remove it so you don't feel the need to pick at a bad wound).
Wildflower
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P.S. When I first started posting on this board, there was a big debate going on about being Guest, and I remember thinking, hey, this Guest who's replying to my posts...he/she is really great and helpful. I can usually identify your sense of humor but I don't want to rope random Guest posts into you, CG. I'm so happy, though, that it was you who was there in the beginning. And you who wrote the commune postings :D.
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Hi Rosencrantz and Wildflower and Portia,
Thankyou so much for your warm and caring responses. Oh My Gosh. :D I feel so fortunate to have come across you.
I've got a confession to make. I'm lousy at recognising when I'm repeating mistakes. Lousy! Lousy! I haven't just got blind spots. I'm totally emotionally visually impaired when it comes to myself.
I can see it in others. Or if it's about other people, and can see when other people are making the same mistakes over and over. Doesn't that make me the clever one?
That's why I'm such a useless little shit in group therapy. I'm not useless regarding everyone else's progress, just regarding my own! :x
Maybe I will blow up and burst one day! :oops: Yeah, it would be very messy, wouldn't it. And what a wonderful mother I'd have been, leaving a huge mess for my kids to have to deal with, or for them to have to clean it up for me. :evil: I'd hate myself forever. So I'd better attend to it hey?
And I think I do seep! :shock: (Emoticon for YYUUKK!!!)
You know I'm lousy when the camera zooms in on me. I'm fine, very comfortable off in the corner telling one of my stories on my terms, or unconsciously being colourful jester, entertaining naturally and making a few people laugh. But put the spotlight on me so everyone's watching and can hear and I'm outta there.
Duh!! :shock: I think it's some form of avoidance. Or maybe it's a control thing. I feel so exposed when I become the focus of someone else's attention.
Maybe that's why I married a Narcissist. Now there's a thought.!!! :?
(Memo to self - File that thought for further analysis.)
Like now, with both of you directing your attention to me. Any zeroing in on me gets me squirming, BIG TIME. I'd have usually exited by now, cause I'm feeling under the spotlight and not the one in control and I get very uncomfortable.
So I'm resisitng that urge to hide. Why? First, because I wouldn't want either of you to think that you'd offended me. You haven't. And second, I think because I've come to trust you both over the past couple of weeks. :shock: :shock: There's a turn up for the books. Add also because I'm smart enough to know this is important to me, and really why I came here, to sort out some of this crap.
I know you are both (R & W) saying some really valuable stuff in your posts. On one level I feel pricked and prodded and there's a conviction in me to look deeper. And it's like I'm a total retard in this area, or I'm really hard of hearing or maybe even stone-deaf emotionally. Anyway, I'm getting some time on my own this weekend. I intend to re-read Rosencrantz's and Wildflower's posts and if you feel inclined to add anymore stuff that you think may assist please feel free. And please don't apologise for speaking your mind here and sharing your thoughts, I'm soooo open to you and pleased that you have, and pleased that I haven't run away.
I cheer you on, appreciate you greatly and shout, "Sock it to me me baby."
Thanks
CG
PS, You're right Wildflower, I've never watched that movie. I'd drop dead with a mouth full off popcorn in the first scary scene. Meanwhile, everyone else in the theatre would be screaming and jumping with fright and observing how rigid, still and unmoved I was. They'd probably even be thinking how totally cool I was, that I wasn't affected by the horror at all. :D
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Hi Guest,
I was doing some surfing (instead of sleeping :roll: ) when you posted and I just have to say a million times no. You are NOT retarded. You are amazing. That you survived your 'mother' so beautifully - and I mean, really, your voice is so beautiful. And kind. And comforting. Your humor is wonderful, and I can imagine it has carried you through many a tough situation.
You may be full of lead from getting fired at or even getting caught in the cross-fire, or maybe you look like a colander, but everything you did - including the avoidance - got you here, didn't it? And now, having had the peace of years away from your mother, you're ready to do some incredibly difficult work and face such yukky memories? No. You're not retarded. You're brave and strong. And really. Just a very short time ago, you were working through some tough stuff to get to the 'discrediting the witness' conclusion. It's okay to take your time through this. As you said, one mountain at at time.
Stay with us. You don't have to be CG if it's too difficult sometimes, but stay.
Wildflower
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PPS,
Wildflower, I forgot to add what I'd say to my mother if I thought I wasn't wasting my breath and she would hear.
Once I asked her why she hated me, and she said, "Because you remind me so much of your father. You even look like him." I believe she meant that, and it makes sense. She hated him in ways words can't describe.
Any questions I may have about her are generally answered by what she said. Even basic questions like, "Why didn't you feed me? Why did I have to scrounge for food? Why didn't you buy me clothes, or take me on holidays? Why did you kill my dog? Why did you......" Blaah Blah Bla!
The bitch even bought my friends new clothes and took them on holidays. Unbelievable. Ouch. And that one hurt.
Then she started doing the same with my children (and yes, they look like me), that was when I took my stand. She injured them badly a couple of times before I cut her off. I don't know if I have any question for her now. I don't think I do.
CG
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Stay with us. You don't have to be CG if it's too difficult sometimes, but stay.
Isn't that a wonderful thing to say. Is your heart bursting, CG? Mine is!!
And I want to say I think your heart is wonderful. You saved my life!!! Without you I wouldn't have got where I got in the past couple of weeks. And, if you've had a few other names and guises here, well, I take all of you - so don't think you're only acceptable as 'C'G!! :D
I just wondered who your mother REALLY wanted revenge on - who did the first evil deed that she's STILL trying to get even for??
jumping with fright and observing how rigid, still and unmoved I was
My thought was, knowing just a smidgeon of your past, that you were rigid with fear - that the fear had been so great (of things she did) (AND your own rage??) that you were rigidly keeping it out of sight. Like being 'in shock'.
Thanks for being so courageous as to stay. I'd miss you if you went! And you're brilliant. If I'm going to have to recognise my own 'power' and 'talent' and intelligence etc, (urgh) well there aren't many people I'd genuinely bow to - I bow to you! ;-)
Take care
R
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Thanks so much guys, and I'm a little embarrassed :oops: but I really want to tell you that I value you in my life.
CG
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LOL - You're embarrassed? I'm absolutely terrified :lol: I've now related in positive and specific terms with you, with Portia and with Wildflower IN PUBLIC. I'm waiting for my mother to come out of the closet with a machine gun, all barrels firing (mixed metaphor?) - rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...
"You can only relate to me," she'll cry. "How dare you relate to other people. How dare you get so close. How dare you not put me at the centre of your universe. I am so (frightened and) enraged I will destroy you all..." (Crikey, she really is only a few months old!!! Her brain never made any neural connections beyond the breast-feeding stage.)
[I'm about to go off at a total tangent so I'll stop there! :wink:)
R
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Dear CG, I read this and instinctively put my face in my hands (I’m not very instinctive with body language, always try to control the signals):
“Because you remind me so much of your father. You even look like him."
Me too, I look like my Dad I mean, we’d both be surprised if I looked like your Dad right?
She took out her rage and revenge on your father, on you, didn’t she? Even down to the having sex while you were around. Imagine you were your Dad instead. Now it makes sense....
Oh,….here I go again….connections sparking because I just told myself to imagine that! Ha ha, brain’s off again! It’s like being in a three-dimensional maze on a rollercoaster: up and down those dead-ends, or peeking into corners and finding a dead rabbit to hang onto and take up another route…who killed this rabbit? I demand to know! These rollercoaster mazes can make you as sick as hell but there ‘I’ am at the centre, shouting ‘please come and get me!’
(Don’t ask me who I was channelling then coz I don’t know! I look at the words in amazement. :o Do you want them? Quick, take them off me…)
A quick ‘Thank you’ all….for your replies.. including Dawning!! on my new thread…will be back on it soon. Need to let it simmer. Love and relating in public (emoticon: dirty raincoat flasher revealing red beating heart!) P
Hey R your mother is the baby in the example of good mothering in Secunda’s book? Who won’t let Mummy talk to her friend?! :roll:
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She took out her rage and revenge on your father, on you, didn’t she?
Now THAT is clever - wot a smart connection to make!! That's sooo outside my experience. I look and sound like my mother. Well, I did in my teens and 20s. The one thing about me that looks like my father are my eyes. His whole family have a distinctive look about the eyes. And my mother has always spitefully (oooh, first time I used that word in this context) criticized me for that.
"You've got the (last name) eyes," she'd say with disdain - like I'd shamed her for choosing them and not being the perfect specimen of HER version of womanhood!!! "You've chosen not to look exactly llike me, just to spite me!!" Just as well I'm not into plastic surgery!!!
Well, I love my dad for his (last name) eyes! And I love the 7 year old in the photo, too! Like I used to say to my son about the things he didn't like which are distinctive about him - "That's what makes you special - how else would I have known you amongst all those other babies after you were born!!! I'll ALWAYS know who you are, and find you again, no matter what!" :wink: :D
Anyway, off on a tangent of my own again. Portia - the connections you make always seem spot-on to me!! I love the way you wrote about 'channelling' - I know what you mean, what a great way to express it. Remember me telling you how you remind me I'm still in touch with reality when I think I may have gone way too 'deep' and 'lost it' - well that's what I meant!! :wink: :D
We're off on a bear hunt...We're going to catch a big one.
What a beautiful day! We're not scared.
Oh-oh! We can't go over it. We can't go under it.
Oh, no! We'll have to go through it!
TTFN
R
PS Can't find that section in Secunda - got a chapter or page number???
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Ah. I gave you the wrong book! It’s in ‘Why is it always about you?’ – Hotchkiss page 43, Emily: a calm place to grow. It’s a piece on how a great mother ‘separates’. I will scan and email if you don’t have it – let me know (breaking copyright? Well, it’s not searchable on Amazon.com…) P
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Check! I think I have every book on narcissism that was ever published!!!
(But I don't think I referred to a single one during my little 'crisis'!! All the information went out of my head. I let go the side of the swimming pool and struck out for the middle. I was 'drowning not waving' for a while but then it got to be quite fun!!! A bit like playing in the pool knowing you can swim like a dolphin and not being worried you'll drown or that you'll be all alone in the wide, wide sea - it's a swimming pool and it's open to the public - lots of other people swimming here, too!!! :wink:)
Oh, not page 43 - much younger than that. Pre-language.
When my father was...you know...I was staying in a hotel and visiting my father in hospital so I was being in touch with my mother just such a small amount of time, but I could feel myself descending into this chasm of masochistic servitude. I was terrified my confidence would zap out completely and I'd not have enough strength or 'nerve' to cope with the four hour drive home - and so I left, escaped, skipped out on my father, actually :cry:
Anyway, I remember talking to my H on the phone from the hotel explaining how I felt and had this strange image that somehow my mother saw me as a 'stone'. Then I realised it was one of those strange-looking succulents called 'stone' plants. http://www.hort.wisc.edu/mastergardener/Features/indoorplants/lithops/lithops.htm (good picture about half way down if you don't know what it is!)
As I tried to penetrate what this image was telling me, it became like a spineless hedgehog with a tiny snout peeking out. Peculiar, but how appropriate - spineless! Then suddenly one day the real meaning popped out. A breast! An empty breast - the snout was the nipple. (Can't get milk out of a stone!!) And the name Melanie Klein's 'good breast, bad breast' popped into my mind!
I realise this sounds pretty weird and I'd love it if someone popped onto the board and said 'oh, yes - I recognise what that all means. That's a perfectly acceptable, normal viewpoint to take. Actually that's quite insightful of you'!! (I'm not 'allowed' to understand you see!!)
But this is the 'new me' (panic and shame rising nevertheless) and, propelled to 'understand' what I seem to think I know, I'm having a search on the internet...
Melanie Klein : The first three months of life, she calls the paranoid-schizoidposition. Klein postulates that the baby goes through a range of good and bad feelings, identified with the full and empty breast. When thebaby is fed and satisfied, it feels good and its anxiety abates. Whenthe breast is empty, the baby too feels empty and bad. Klein postulates that the baby deals with its bad feelings by projecting them outside itself, hence the term paranoid, from whence the baby feels persecuted. At this stage the baby does not know what to do withthese persecutory feelings. But it experiences destructive rage.
In the following three months the baby experiences the breast and thus the mother as a whole and can tackle its bad feelings withreparation. The young child experiences repeatedly persecution, loss,guilt and reparation. I know many question the validity of Klein'stheories on the early months but we can see it in adult life with thepersistent projection of bad feelings in paranoid people and thecapacity in mature people to deal with anger and hurt by makingreparation.
Aha - and I now see that Melanie Klein seems to be where the concept of projective identification and splitting (black and white thinking) come from which are set out in the Nina Brown books!
So, under stress, experiencing loss, my mother goes into that schizoid position...everyone is totally good or totally bad so if you withold something she wants you're evil personified!!!
Blah, blah, blah. Not going to risk any more today. I didn't 'ask' to understand it from that point of view. I feel so guilty for doing so. I don't even claim to 'understand'! But that's how I 'see' her and how I see where she's coming from. I don't even know what to 'do' with it! It's just easier to say I'm a nutcase, don't know what I'm talking about!!!!! Going down the plughole again!!!!!
Coming up again! This means that any object which threatens the exclusive possession of the idealised breast/mother is felt as a persecutor and has projected into it all the hostile feelings
So there! :oops: :wink: :oops: :oops: :oops:
R
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B) As I looked back with my new less-critical eyes, I saw a wake of destruction behind me, both of myself and others. How much time have I wasted with all these negative feelings? How many people have I hurt - people I cared about, people I may never be able to face again – because I was lashing out?
I yearn for the day that I wake up with less cynical eyes, but I know that isn’t going to happen any day soon. I feel like I can’t just wake up one day and be transformed. The reality is that I can’t just see someone for who and what they are, I scrutinize them in every possible aspect, right down to the last minuscule detail. I can’t see someone for the great person they are or the gifts they have, I see them for their weaknesses, flaws, mistakes, and faults. I know I have to stop this destructive behavior... I am making progress slowly, it’s a day-to-day thing, but one day, I hope to achieve what you have achieved, and I am determined to do so.
Wildflower, I commend you on your strength and self perseverance. You have conquered all the negativity in your life and brought with it such a phenomenal radiance of positivity.
Thank you for sharing, it was truly inspiring! It sort of gave me a sense of hope, thank you again, it helped tremendously.
Take care of yourself,
- Nikole
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Nikole, what a lovely recognition of Wildflower, and you sound like you're well on the road to achieving your goal. All we need really are a few lights to mark the way, don't way.
( :D )
CG
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She took out her rage and revenge on your father, on you, didn’t she? Even down to the having sex while you were around. Imagine you were your Dad instead. Now it makes sense....
Oh,….here I go again….connections sparking because I just told myself to imagine that! Ha ha, brain’s off again! It’s like being in a three-dimensional maze on a rollercoaster: up and down those dead-ends, or peeking into corners and finding a dead rabbit to hang onto and take up another route…who killed this rabbit? I demand to know! These rollercoaster mazes can make you as sick as hell but there ‘I’ am at the centre, shouting ‘please come and get me!’
(Don’t ask me who I was channelling then coz I don’t know! I look at the words in amazement. :o Do you want them? Quick, take them off me…)
Hey R your mother is the baby in the example of good mothering in Secunda’s book? Who won’t let Mummy talk to her friend?! :roll:
Thanks Portia for the :idea: :idea: :idea: moment. Damn that was a mighty fine connection. I wouldn't have made that one in a million years. Yes, I can 'SEE' it :shock: .
Why did it make me laugh. :shock: That doesn't seem appropriate does it, because it's not funny. I tend to do that though, when I'm schocked or frightened or trying to deal with some crap or another. Find something funny in it. It relieves the presure somehow. I laugh and laugh till my head falls off, and then stop and go to work on the problem.
I think the concept of her shagging in front of me is so close to sexual abuse. I've always had trouble making the connection with certain of her behaviours and linking them to sexual abuse. Although, in one small dark crevice, high in the hills of left brain, the thought lurks that mothers who tell their 6 year old of the value of oral over other forms of sex does consitute some form of sexual abuse. Did you say your mum did the same type of thing to you?
And boy, am I so glad I don't look like her. I'd get rid of all the mirrors if I did. I gotta say Portia, you're channeling scenarios are hilarious, brilliant. Where do they come from??? Have you worked that out???
Thanks for your comments, one more page completed my mystery book.
CG
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I'm waiting for my mother to come out of the closet with a machine gun, all barrels firing (mixed metaphor?) - rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...
"You can only relate to me," she'll cry.
"How dare you relate to other people.
How dare you get so close.
How dare you not put me at the centre of your universe.
I am so (frightened and) enraged I will destroy you all..." R
This made me think. :idea: My mother would love that I'm here dealing with issues that she created and so often talking about her and her antics. Somehow I just 'know' she'd be tickled pink by being talked about. It wouldn't matter to her that she's a 'negative' centre and topic of conversation in this particular part of my universe. She'd still love it.
Sometimes I think I'll add a distorted type of Maunchausen (however it'd spelt) by proxy syndrome to her list of ailments.
And I went to the stoneplant site. I'm a bit of a cacti and succulent 'buff'. I love those plants. They look like seed pods just sitting there, lifeless on top of the soil. But like so many cacti and succulents, hang around for a while and the loveliest flowers appear.
Good thoughts about the full breast empty breast too. Wow :idea: :idea:
Back in my hippie days I read a book which said to have happy calm placid babies you were supposed to let your babies just hang off your tits all day. So I did. My mother was horrified. Embarrassed. Disgusted. She always bragged that why she had such a great bust was because she never breast fed. Thank goodness. I couldn't afford the therapy it would take to get that image out of my mind. YUUK.
Anyway, as I was saying, I used to have a baby latched on 24/7, just feeding whenever, and I loved it. She was right, all that sucking and gravity has had the effect of making my tits look like a pair of razor strops, but hey, who cares! So what if they're 18 inches long and 3 inches wide. They roll up quite nicely and fit neatly into my 34b bra.
CG
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She certainly seems to have that revenge thing down, no argument here. :roll: Yikes.
What was worthy of revenge in her book? Disagreeing with her? Breathing? The horrible things she did to those step-children....was she getting revenge on them, too?
Just curious...
Sorry...instead of posting yet another, I'm just going to edit this in:
My mother did a good job of getting me to doubt everything and everyone (including myself) EXCEPT her actions, choices and opinions. I used to think I was crazy because my life was crazy. I don't anymore, not seriously anyway.
I used to try to explain to her, "Just because I don't feel the same way about someone that you do doesn't mean I'm your enemy." She always expected me to like who she liked, and to hate who she hated. Otherwise I was disloyal and deserving of cruel and wicked treatment.
This has been sticking to the roof of my mouth for a couple of days. Am I pushing you? I really, truly hope not (but just say the word). Did she get you to doubt yourself by terrorizing you with the thought of revenge? Brainwashing you through fear?
I reeeeeeallly don't want you to feel like you have to answer this if it's too much (if it is, tell me and I'll remove it so you don't feel the need to pick at a bad wound).
Wildflower
I missed this question Wildflower, and no it doesn't worry me talking about it. She has to be the centre of attention. That's it. And it's not the centre of attention with others as accessories. It's total attention. She can't share anything. If I used a different brand hair dye or butter to one she "suggested' she'd think I was doing it on purpose. It sounds ridiculous, but I'm using the simplest examples of times she's gone totally nutso at me as an adult, in my own house.
I have a routine, I cook on Saturday afternoons. I love it, and I make a big mess, because I cook most of the weeks meals then and freeze them. Lasagne, quiche, vege pies, lentils etc. She came me to stay once and abused, and I mean abused me for messing up 'my' kitchen. She accused me of trying to 'play' the perfect mother. "Who did I think I kidding?"
She lived with a rich widower guy once who owned a large shopping centre. He had a young son (about 12 or 13) away at boarding school who only came home on holidays. She couldn't stand him coming home, so she made bookings for him at holiday camps. One time he refused to go and kicked up a stink so his dad let him come home instead. Meanwhile, she'd knitted him the boy a lovely jumper :?: :?: And she was so 'loving' to the boy in front of his dad. His dad was completely sucked in, and thrilled at how much she showed 'love' to his motherless son by knitting him a jumper. She never knitted me a bloody jumper. I didn't even know the silly cow could knit that well. Maybe she paid someone to knit it??
Anyway, she buried it (the jumper) in the back yard, and she set it up for the father to 'find' it when he was down the back. He beat the crap out of the boy, because of how 'hurt' my mother was by him 'burying' the jumper. The boy never came home for holidays again while my mother was on the scene. She told me about it later and thought she was fantastic. That poor kid.
So to answer your question. Anything was worthy of her revenge. I could never be sure. You know, she couldn't handle one single feeling of discomfort or not being worshipped. Her relationships only ever last to near the end of the honeymoon phase. Start putting one expectation on her and she turns homicidal. Like let's try a simple, "What's for dinner?" You'll only ask that question once. Cause you'll find out 3 months later that that beautiful dinner she prepared for you the night after, you know the one with that tangy white sauce that you complimented her on, had cat's piss in it. Bloody hell!! So I always had to think hard before saying something simple like, "Isn't it a nice day," if she didn't think it was, or vice versa.
Like she told me that she could never forgive me for making her a grandmother. She hates it! I guess becoming a grandmother made her feel old. It was also her attempting to spoil the moment when my first child was born and to make it all about her somehow.
As if I had a baby for one reason only, to ruin her life and make her feel old. Oh give me a break mother! And hey guess what mother, it wasn't about you at all.
CG
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I'm gonna shutup now, I just looked and that's 4 posts in a row on this thread. Who's voiceless? Not me obviously.
CG
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Go with the flow, CG :wink: go with the flow :lol: I was on a roll there and felt mightily cut off when you stopped!!! :wink:
My mother screwed up my mind because HERS was screwed up but she's a sad person really - not very effective in the wider world and no insight at all. I guess what she's been doing to me as an adult has been her version of revenge but totally self-defeating and hurts herself more than anybody else. And then going totally 'psychotic' when faced with loss. It's rather ironic that, as I get to grips with it all, the worst of her behaviour is probably fading. But at least this time I don't get to think I 'made it all up'. It really happened!!!
But your mother really knew what she was doing and 'intended' it, too. The word 'sick' is tip-toeing off my tongue. But it's still 'just' anger!!!???
My mother wanted to express her anger by wreaking havoc and so did yours. At least I 'did' something to deserve it (ie left home) but you didn't!!! There was no rhyme or reason. Did you make up reasons ('if I were different then...'; 'it's because I did x').
When I was little 'all' mine wanted to do was control me and 'pretended' she was controlling everything else. But your role was as a convenient scapegoat, the one she'd use as a target for creative vengefulness if no-one else was around - ??? Mind you, you were also her confidante. There's some 'sanity' in knowing what she did and how she did it - she gave herself away! She gave you clues so you could 'stop' her mess, stop her messing you up too much!!!???
That just reminded me of some people here on the board who tried to stir things up then said, like, oh thank you for making my mean things 'nice' - as if they had no responsibility over their own actions or for what was happening generally!!! Still don't get it but I see it.
What I see inside you, CG (then, not now) is the little girl transformed by all that horror you saw and experienced into that painting 'The Cry'. Frozen in time. That child needs the biggest and longest hug before she'll ever feel your warmth, let alone look at you. And there's only you who can do it, CG. You've got the capacity - has this already been done in your life - or is it yet to be done???
Take care
R
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Mind you, you were also her confidante. There's some 'sanity' in knowing what she did and how she did it - she gave herself away! She gave you clues so you could 'stop' her mess, stop her messing you up too much!!!???
R
Thanks Rosencrantz, I hadn't thought about this aspect of it clearly before.
I'm a great believer in "The sun is gonna shine tomorrow" attitude. I'm so upbeat 11 months every year. But when I do go down, I sink to depths where I think no man has gone before. (I'm sure I exaggerate on this point, but it's just how it seems at the time.)
But that was an incredibly thought provoking comment of yours, and it crystallised a recurring fleeting image I've tried to harpoon at different times. It was in being her confidante that she shot herself in the foot with me and my children. Hip hip hooray. She never got to harm my kids the way I think she was warming up to. And what she did get away with was so brief and fleeting. The little bit of harm she caused nearly a decade ago, we got over and dealt with in a very unified way as a family.
"There be scorpions." Of course, she couldn't help herself and she created a situation where my children had to be protected from her. Because I know her inside out I was able to recognised it pretty quickly!! And as a result I moved on her and was able to protect them. Thank goodness I never flinched or hesitated. I think I'd been in training for that moment all my life. And boy, did I take her to task, for first time ever.
It was a virgin moment. I was extremely anxious, clumsy and messy. But I was damned effective. My children may have witnessed her insanity and cruelty for abrief moment in their lives, but with me protecting them from her I don't think it has caused any lasting damage. I know they learned something about me then. And I gained some of my power back. There was a shift.
We relate on my terms now, and my terms are as you know "No contact."
Gosh that was insightful of you. I can see now in the light of that experience, how it was actually useful for me to have been her confidante. Otherwise, I may not have intervened so quickly and effectively on my kids behalf. Yes. I think you're spot on.
Your last part about the big hug for the inner child, I don't know. I'm not good in answering accurately in this area. Is it possible that I do that with my kids? I'm very affectionate and attentive with them, does that qualify? Is it possible I do it vicariously through them? Maybe I need to read a book about it.
My husband reckons my kids have a wow of a life because I'm making up to myself, (through them) all the things I missed out on, (food, family, friends, and fun). Since he said this I've tried to be vigilant, and make sure I don't try to live my life through them. Tricky tricky. I don't think I do, and I do try to make sure I'm not forcing them to do something they don't want to do, just because it's something I may have liked to do as a kid. I don't think I have so far, but I'm slightly paranoid about this, so I keep checking on myself in this department.
I've even given my husband and a couple of friends permission to tell me if they observe me doing this. And asked them to tell me if they ever even think they see signs of stress in my kids from me pushing them into something. Nothing has come back yet (touch wood).
Oh my, life does become quite complicated sometimes doesn't it? Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to play 4 pianos at once. But it's worth it when someone clever comes along and does some major untangling of my big ball of string, like you just did. And shows me how something bad got turned around to be something good.
(hug) and thanks
CG
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Is it okay if I bring this back over here? I don’t want clog Dawning’s thread with any of my yucky stuff.
Wow was it great to read your vent fest on that thread. GO CG!!!!!!!!!! It’s simply outrageous isn’t it? That it’s just so damn threatening to be yourself?!? :evil:
I love the differences in my children. I don't want them to be like me, eat like me, dress like me, think like me. I use your example of the joy of travel and going to interesting places with history, and meeting experiencing different cultures, tasting and enjoying local cuisine.
Why can't some parents embrace the differences in their children and learn and grow themselves from watching their children develop. All children, I believe, are gifted with their own unique personality from conception. What a tragic loss if it's not cultivated and encouraged!!!!!
I think you just answered your own question about whether or not you were being a good mother – and why no one’s called you on that request to poke you if your kids start showing signs of stress. You love them, and it shows! And as for hugging that inner child who was terrorized by your mother, if you need any help, just say the word!
Oh, and here's one just for free:
((((((((((((((( C inner child G ))))))))))))))))
It's my RIGHT Damn It! But what I really resent is the momentary loss of energy and enthusiasm that I find I'm robbed of when I get trapped in an 'I find you unacceptable' (Dan Akroyd in 'Coneheads') scenario.
For the past 36 or so hours I feel like I’ve been muttering "damn it" almost continuously while dancing to blasting music because I WANT TO (damn it), walking proudly and defiantly down the street (damn it), shrugging off this monkey who is my mother breathing down my neck telling me that I’m not fit to be with other humans (damn it), and just in a complete rage at how I didn’t deserve it. DAMN IT!! Just like there was no reason for her to pull the emotional blackmail bit on me a few weeks ago after I’d OFFERED to help, there was no reason to beat me down. What was so bad about me? NOTHING. I’m not saying I was perfect, but there was no reason to treat me that. Period.
And talk about channeling :shock: , I don’t know where that last post directed at my mother came from, but I’ve been reading it over and over, as someone else wrote it for me to understand. I think I’m gonna have to clutter my refrigerator with this one!
Now I've got to get tough with protecting whoever it is who wrote that post. :wink: :shock: :shock: :wink:
Oh, and Portia? I laugh every time I get to the dead rabbit line (who killed this rabbit? must find out) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Wildflower
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Is it okay if I bring this back over here? I don’t want clog Dawning’s thread with any of my yucky stuff.
Wow was it great to read your vent fest on that thread. GO CG!!!!!!!!!! It’s simply outrageous isn’t it? That it’s just so damn threatening to be yourself?!? :evil:
It's my RIGHT Damn It! But what I really resent is the momentary loss of energy and enthusiasm that I find I'm robbed of when I get trapped in an 'I find you unacceptable' (Dan Akroyd in 'Coneheads') scenario.
For the past 36 or so hours I feel like I’ve been muttering "damn it" almost continuously while dancing to blasting music because I WANT TO (damn it), walking proudly and defiantly down the street (damn it), shrugging off this monkey who is my mother breathing down my neck telling me that I’m not fit to be with other humans (damn it), and just in a complete rage at how I didn’t deserve it. DAMN IT!! Just like there was no reason for her to pull the emotional blackmail bit on me a few weeks ago after I’d OFFERED to help, there was no reason to beat me down. What was so bad about me? NOTHING. I’m not saying I was perfect, but there was no reason to treat me that. Period.
Wildflower
Whooaa!! Go Wildflower!! You are so right, she had no right to treat you like that. Isn't that a good reality to get into? I think that is a 'slow train coming' experience that is emerging for me on horizon. It's hard when
independant thinking was taboo. Not encouraged is too mild. It was taboo.
It reminds me a bit of my attitude to a lot of modern journalism. So often it's - no thinking required , just other people's crap, refried.
"Umm, yum, yes please. Can I have another bowl of your hot steaming crap please mother? Oh I can, goody, you are so good to me."
I guess I'm thinking it's also a bit like never having eaten snails or frogs legs or lizard. I couldn't come at any of that food, no matter which a la carte world famous chef prepared it. But I'm sure if I'd been born into a different culture, where these types of (repulsive to me) foods formed part of my staple diet in the household in which I grew up, then they would hold a tremendous appeal for me.
I read once somewhere, and noted it down in one of my journal's, "When punishment and abuse (in it's many forms) has formed the basis of our first and primary relationship - and that relationship has been vital to our survival - we seek and crave this in our future relationships."
"Gee thanks mum for this love you fostered in me that I have of eating other people's hot steaming crap. You're an angel sweetie, ta. And why aren't you just so proud of me, I'm just like you?"
Maybe that was me, way back on some far distant planet, but not any more, not this little space-traveller. I'm outta that whole freekin' galaxy , and I'm stayin' out!
And there are no shortcuts to mental and /or emotional health. Not for me anyway. I've learnt I had to be prepared to put in the hard yards. I've found it's been vital to invest the time to understand what the real issues are in my life. No point having some superficial grasp on what the issues are, (like so many modern journo's who annoy the crap out of me) and then demand answers!!! Aren't the instant society, full of bullshit solutions and answers, F*#*kin' hopeless.
I remember I read one book written by a lunatic woman years ago who told me codependancy was my problem and that I loved too much. I was an excellent student, and to my horror, much later I realised so much of it was all shit. The only person who got any benefit from that book was the jerk I was married to. I'd like to meet her, that author one day. :evil: :twisted:
Then there's the woman you meet anywhere, maybe your second cousin, maybe your hairdresser, with the perfect life and all the answers.
I'll call her Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff dressed up as Mrs Caring.
She says, "Oh dear CG, you say you and your mother don't get on, tut tut, what a shame. Daughters shouldn't fight with their mother's, it's not nice. Why don't you try sending her a Christmas card. Mother's mean well you know."
CG says, " Yeah sure, and while I'm at it, why don't I go buy myself a bucket of death adders to keep me warm in bed tonight, you useless peice of ...."
Replies Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff dressed up as Mrs Caring, "Oh, I'm sure you're exaggerating, she can't be that bad."
CG says, "Well, she used to have oral sex with her boyfriends in front of me when I was only 6 and 7, and she knocked me out once, and she killed my dog, and she fed her cat's balls to her boyfriend once, and she cleaned the dunny with peoples toothbrushes when she was angry with them, that's pretty bad isn't it?"
Says Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff dressed up as Mrs Caring, "Um, well, oh dear, is that the time, I've gotta go CG and it's beeen nice talking with you."
CG, "Yeah, bye, piss off."
When something has affected me deeply, and then I realise I have made a life of making wrong choices because it's stuffed up my thoughts and feelings, it becomes critical for me to get to the bottom of the real issues driving me. This was what happened when I learned about narcissism and NPD. I'm sure I've over-read and over-researched this and a whole range of issues in my life, but I find for me it's exactly what I need to do if I'm want to conquer or master any subject or problem in my life. There's no other way for me.
So if I'm labouring and going over the same ground with 'mother stories', please bear with me, or else piss off, I don't care! I'm sorting out some serious shit here.
But to you Wildflower I say,
You're great Wildflower,
Go buy those fish (pleeease I wanna be the blonde one),
Turn up that music,
Party with those friends,
Plan that trip,
Shake that touche'
Drink that milk :shock: ?
Thanks so much Wildflower for listening,
CG
PS, what's your cat's name, mine's Tom and he's half balinese.
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It's hard when independant thinking was taboo. Not encouraged is too mild. It was taboo.
This is a thought that has confused me for a long, long time. Mom was always encouraging me to be independent, to think independently. Or, that’s how the story went. That’s what she told me. But she was fighting desperately for her OWN independence by rebelling everything her mother said/did/required – and it was that ‘independence’ that I was allowed. Not my own. Not my own independence to clean the kitchen if I wanted to (who did it hurt??).
Not my own independence to watch the kind of TV shows I wanted. Now, I’m all for a parent guiding their child these days when it comes to watching TV. That’s not what I’m saying. It’s the parent’s job to be responsible and help their child not watch too much TV, and to make sure that they are mature enough to handle what they watch. And maybe that was my mom’s intention, but if she didn’t like what I was watching, she’d ask me in a tone of voice I understood all too well, “Why do you like watching that?” And that would be it. I’d never watch it again. One of those shows was a silly sitcom about a radio station and I really liked one of the characters. The show was stupid, and I knew that on some level. But I’ve seen the show since on cable, and I’m floored by how much that character looks like my good dad. :shock: Duh. THAT’s why I liked watching that show. But it was low-brow and dumb and a bit tacky, and mom didn't approve of such things. And I had lost connection with my good dad to the point where he was just a random collection of strange memories and impulses that didn’t make sense. :cry: So I never watched it again.
But … that’s it. I mean, so much of what my mom did could have made sense if there had been enough positive reinforcement to balance it out. And if I hadn’t continuously been set up for failure? I was never really guided, but boy did I hear about it if I was doing something – anything - wrong.
I believed that, to my core, there was something deeply wrong with me that made me do all these ‘bad’ things. Because that was her message. Given that she was abused herself, she probably didn’t understand how her message came across. How deeply her criticisms affected me. And because she had never been able to protect herself and was constantly fighting for her own survival, she couldn’t understand how my own needs were in no way a threat. She could have watched me and learned from me, but instead, she silenced me.
And she pushed me away because she couldn’t deal with the responsibility of really taking care of a child. This reinforced the monster message, because it said to me that I was so bad, even my own mother couldn’t bear to spend time with me. :cry: :cry: :cry:
And I see now that I probably never would have been able to challenge this deep down belief if I hadn’t pushed myself out into the world in spite of some almost paralyzing fears of what I might discover about myself. At first, I did get a lot of negative feedback, because I was so angry and hurt and defensive. Wounded. But I learned, over time, to change the way I interacted with people – first by watching how others interacted and trying to understand why I didn’t, and then by refining my interactions with the help of a therapist. I never would have guessed that, in doing all this, I would have found myself. Again. And knowing who I am – or at least, knowing more about who I am - has given me the courage and the strength to finally face this poisonous belief – and squash it. Going back into those memories on Friday night, I almost got lost. I almost buckled again (what if I really DID deserve it – poor mom having to put up with me :cry: ). But I had the accumulation of my stories, my islands, my interactions with people in the present, the knowledge of how good it makes me feel to be kind to people whenever I can – I had all these things to tie me to the earth and help me come back out knowing, finally, after all this time, that I DIDN’T DESERVE IT. I AM NOT A MONSTER.
Wildflower
P.S. - CG, I’m coming back to your post. I just had to get this out. :D
P.P.S – Oh, and my cat’s name is Astor, because when I got him, he used to sit funny because of his bad hips from the accident. He looked regal sitting like that. Then I found out that he’s really just a big dumb happy honest affectionate cat. Who stomps. I swear. And I love him to bits for that. :D :D :D
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But … that’s it. I mean, so much of what my mom did could have made sense if there had been enough positive reinforcement to balance it out.
Correction. The way my mom talked about her actions seemed reasonable, and that's what made it harder for me to see through them. And I do believe that she meant well, but so much of what she did came out all twisted - and sadly, abusive.
Wildflower
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Hi Miss Space-Traveller :D,
Old topic that I’m finally catching up to: clothing. I’ve also struggled for some time now with clothing, and shopping for clothes used to make me so deeply uncomfortable. At first, I think it was mostly to do with the fact that I couldn’t really find clothes that fit since I was so overweight. Even had to go to special stores. But as the weight came off, my reluctance to shop stayed. When I did buy clothes, they were almost always black – to hide the way I looked, and to keep from standing out. Of course, I kind of stood out for always wearing black, but I still felt safely invisible. I think those words about being ugly really sank in, and it has taken years of work with my therapist for me to be able to look in the mirror and see that I’m not fat, and I’m not ugly. And I should be proud to express myself – through clothing. It’s still really hard, though. I still feel like I’m not cool enough to pull off some of the clothing I kind of want to wear. I don’t know if this helps. I’m really just responding to your comment about not feeling like you’re worth spending that kind of money on.
It was a virgin moment. I was extremely anxious, clumsy and messy. But I was damned effective. My children may have witnessed her insanity and cruelty for abrief moment in their lives, but with me protecting them from her I don't think it has caused any lasting damage. I know they learned something about me then. And I gained some of my power back. There was a shift.
This must have been such a difficult, strange and exhilarating time for you. Were you married at that time, or did you have to do all the moving and detaching on your own?
This reminds me of a self-defense for women class I went to thinking it would be one of those classes where you learn how to fight off an attacker, but it turned out to be a small lecture instead (still planning on taking a class like that some day, though). Anyway, the woman giving the lecture asked us to do some exercise like scream out ‘NO’ as loud as we could, and the first couple of times we did it, we were all pretty wimpy. Then she asked us to imagine that we were protecting our children (or pets or some other dependent) and the difference was eye-opening. We were all desperate, loud, FIERCE. She said that most women have trouble defending themselves, but they can hurl large vehicles when asked to defend someone else – especially their children.
Yeah sure, and while I'm at it, why don't I go buy myself a bucket of death adders to keep me warm in bed tonight, you useless peice of ...."
:lol: :lol: :lol: Tell me you said that at some point because it’s hilarious. I got similar reactions if the subject of my dad came up after he told me he’d spent all his money (on a third story to his second home among other things) so he couldn’t continue to pay for my college tuition. I was working as a summer intern at a bank when this typically aggressive banker type guy overheard me talking to one of the other secretaries about visiting my dad that weekend. I think I said something like “I’d rather burn in H***.” (These were my difficult years, mind you :roll: :wink: ). Well, he comes over and starts giving me a lecture about the importance of family and how his father and his sister stopped talking for years and years over some tiny little insignificant thing, so I should be careful not to do that and blah blah blah. I was so angry my eyes started tearing up and I came really close to punching him. Reeeally close. Some nerve, giving me that bit about “some tiny little insignificant thing” when he clearly had no idea what was going on – because he’d never even bothered to ask before telling me not to go and do something foolish. Rrrg.
Hunh. Hadn’t intended to go on that tirade. :oops: :D Anyway, the conversation between you and Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff is talked about quite a bit in the book R recommended that I’m reading right now: When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends. The third chapter, “The Bad Mommy Taboo”, is all about how abusive mothers are protected by so many mechanisms in society – to the point where the needs/protection of the abused child are ignored in order to protect the sanctity of motherhood.
From where I sit, reading your stories, I think your mother belongs in jail or in a mental ward for the criminally insane. :evil: I’m not kidding. The fact that she hasn’t been arrested for assault (setting someone on fire??) is astounding to me. Although I guess it’d be too embarrassing for a guy to go into a police station and explain how he got burned like that? I don’t know.
Anyway, back to the book. I read a passage that made me think about your last post and some of the anger you’ve shown towards the other men your mother was involved with:
Other daughters hold their passive fathers accountable. Gloria’s mother was a tyrant whose hair-trigger temper and scathing admonitions kept everyone in line, including Gloria’s father. Today Gloria’s anger at her mother has devolved to an apparent indifference, a kind of numbness. But her anger toward her father is as fresh as when she was a child. Why? Because her father would not protect her from her mother – instead, he protected his wife. Gloria says,
“I just wish he weren’t so damned meek. And that he had gone to bat for me. As a child, I think that was the biggest hurt, not her constantly berating me so much as his allowing her to treat me the way she did. He knew what she was like. Yet he would say, “You have to show respect for your mother,” whenever I’d complain to him.”
Was John the only one who ever stood up for you? Where were you when her other boyfriends were around (when she wasn’t having sex with them – I know where you were then, and yes, that has to be a form of sexual abuse :evil: )?
When something has affected me deeply, and then I realise I have made a life of making wrong choices because it's stuffed up my thoughts and feelings, it becomes critical for me to get to the bottom of the real issues driving me. This was what happened when I learned about narcissism and NPD. I'm sure I've over-read and over-researched this and a whole range of issues in my life, but I find for me it's exactly what I need to do if I'm want to conquer or master any subject or problem in my life. There's no other way for me.
So if I'm labouring and going over the same ground with 'mother stories', please bear with me, or else piss off, I don't care! I'm sorting out some serious shit here.
Even if you ARE hashing out some of the same issues that everyone else has faced, you may come out of your struggles with completely different results. Look at R and me. Some of what we’ve been discovering has been similar probably, but I sense that the answers we found belonged to different questions, don’t you R? And some of the answers are different, too? Or at least, different details? But important details?
Thanks for the poem :D :D. And of course you can be the blonde fish :D :D :D
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower, meow Astor,
That was an interesting journey and series of thoughts you just posted (The washing up story :shock: . I think, "What is her problem!) and it leads me to want to share an enlightenment I was/am sorting through. It may all be re-fried beans to a you, but I'm used to being a decade late in my thinking. :D Anyway, I love re-fried beans.
I was re-reading only yesterday through some notes I made some time ago about guilt, stress, a possibly shrunken hippocampus due to prolonged periods of stress and abuse, and then back to GUILT again. Yep, GUILT being the biggee.
At first when I was reading through, I had the thought to post it as a new thread, but then I concluded it's all too full of holes and half conclusions, :D :D , a bit like me :D :D . I'm so glad self-deprecation is one of my strong points! :D :D
My title page says the following,
'WHY? WHY? WHY?'
"WHY Do We Strive With Abusive Parents?"
"WHY Do WE Strive With Abusive Spouses?"
"WHY Do We Strive With Abusive Friends?"
ANSWER. WHY we strive = we are conditioned to feel guilty.
(explanatory note - That's the title, "WHY?" ANSWER - being the conclusion of the author. My notes are a mish-mash, but you've got good insight and so I thought you might get something out of it. I know I did, but inside me it's still a work in progress, not a unified cohesive script yet. So here goes. Part 1 are the written notes. Part 2 is my written response to myself at the reaction or revelation I had at the time, and I wrote it and read it out loud to myself and cried at the time. Self-pity or self-awareness, who knows?? I jes' no's it felt rite!).
Part 1.
'The Psyche Of The Abused' by Ken Levin
The abused child who is abused and/or neglected by
an alcoholic mother, or beaten by a brute of a father,
or sexually abused, takes on guilt and shame.
Somewhere in the damaged psyche develops the
Galut or Dhimmi mentality (Moslem or Arab terminology I think???)
The 'if's' come in.
With the 'if's' comes the need in later life to appease guilt.
We marry people like our parents.
We try to make it work.
We keep reaching out to our parents - relating!
Doing things for them - WHY? - GUILT!
FALSE - EXTRERNALLY IMPOSED GUILT
(note - big significance to me here)
Not for anything we have done,
but for (here's another big one) 'WHAT WE HAVE RECEIVED'
Punishment - we have been punished for
being alive and being a burden -
And WE ARE GUILTY!!!
Part 2.
Now comes the SCREAMING response I wrote down after I came out of the shock reality impact.
Question to self, "Why do I feel guilty about having been a child?"
Well, I'm still alive, and being still alive has meant that I've cost someone time and money. So, GUILTY!
I've created washing and would get sick sometimes and someone has had to look after me. So GUILTY!
I cried when I'm hurt and made a noise and a fuss. So GUILTY!
I made a mess sometimes and someone had to clean it up. So, GUILTY!
I had a vagina, which may have turned men (step-dad) on. So GUILTY!
I grew breasts breasts and became another woman in the house, a threat. So GUILTY!
I was young, when mum was getting older. So GUILTY!
I was loud and laughing and energetic mixed with innocence. So GUILTY!
Everything that I was punished for :idea: HAD A REALITY AND A CONTEXT!!! SO YES!! :idea: I WAS GUILTY!!
AND I'VE CARRIED THIS GUILT 'WITH' MY ABUSIVE PARENT!!
The end of my notes.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share this Wildflower.
(((Wildflower)))
CG
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Hi CG,
First off, I feel like this is a cozy thread, a CG thread, so it completely makes sense for you to keep posting here. :D (((CG)))
I had a vagina, which may have turned men (step-dad) on. So GUILTY!
I grew breasts breasts and became another woman in the house, a threat. So GUILTY!
I was young, when mum was getting older. So GUILTY!
I was loud and laughing and energetic mixed with innocence. So GUILTY!
This is just a first impression because these really hit me hard. They add a whole new layer to your story.
Not only were you
1) the scapegoat (and thankfully confidant) as R so insightfully pointed out,
2) a reminder of your father, as Portia channelled (I'd say 'insightfully pointed out' but you know how you're not supposed to repeat words, and well, I love the way you make connections Portia),
but now we have
3) a very real (physical) threat to her as you grew up into the person that the very laws of nature required you to become.
I wonder what would have happened if you had been a boy?
Wildflower
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You're a million miles ahead of me here. I'm stills stuck on the part about your mother not wanting you to watch trashy sit-coms on TV. In my best Scottish or Irish accent I say, "Oi cannay be-leeeve it!" And that look :cry: she would give you. I think I know that look, it produces such guilt and anxiety in the 'looked' :shock: . Looked, oh well, I coouldn't think of the right word. Oi! :D
What was the show, go on, tell me??? You don't have to tell which character looked like your good dad, but tell me the show, pleease???
I've got one question for you. How did you manage to keep your studies up??? How did you manage to keep your mind on the job???
Darn it, I've got all these questoins in my head from your posts and now I gotta go for a little while, something just came up, but I'll be back!!!
CG
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Hi Wildflower I'm back and have got time to talk and I fear I'm gonna ask you some real dumb annoying questions as I go.
But she was fighting desperately for her OWN independence by rebelling everything her mother said/did/required – and it was that ‘independence’ that I was allowed. Not my own.
Gosh that's insightful of you! But also damn bloody annoying mix for you to have had to deal with! I'm trying to think of any other reasons!! Control? Fear? Jealousy? Resentment at being hogtied? Simplicity? (Because it would have been simpler if you were just like her) Just checking :) I'll leave it there.
No, hang on. Who said to you the other day, what was it? Someone, (had to be Rosencrantz or Portia) said for you to say something like, "And mom, while you're in your next crisis I'll time my breakdown to coincide."
Then it was asked whether she lays this crap on everyone, or is special treatment just for you, to get you focussing on her. Like when you were a kid you learned quickly every single detail of her likes and dislikes. You must have known her every mood just as well. One look for watching a TV show she disapproved of could speak a thousand words to you.
And I just have such hard time seeing your mom fighting for her independance!! I'm sure you're right, maybe she wore herself out in that area.
But … that’s it. I mean, so much of what my mom did could have made sense if there had been enough positive reinforcement to balance it out. And if I hadn’t continuously been set up for failure? I was never really guided, but boy did I hear about it if I was doing something – anything - wrong.
I wonder what or why she was criticising really you? I wonder who or what you represented to her?
She could have watched me and learned from me, but instead, she silenced me.
Maybe she's afraid of the truth! You represent the truth about her to her.
You represent the truth about her personality, her life, her choices she's made, and in the end her inadequacies. If she could only see how proud she should be that inspite of her best efforts to suppress and silence and control you, you've blossomed into a beautiful, loving, giving, friendly, helpful, caring soul. And that the way you are going, you're going to have a very happy life.
Why? Because you know something that she doesn't know. You know that you cannot find peace by avoiding life. And another difference is that you make an effort to enable everyday life, and fill it with a sense of your soul. Thanks for that Wildlfower, and if you can't see that, that's okay, it's still true.
And she pushed me away because she couldn’t deal with the responsibility of really taking care of a child. This reinforced the monster message, because it said to me that I was so bad, even my own mother couldn’t bear to spend time with me. :cry: :cry: :cry:
How she managed to project her own image into and onto you has got me beat!!!! I don't know how the hell she did, but I KNOW, DAMN IT, that that's what she did to you. DAMN IT!! Can anyone explain this to me?????
And I see now that I probably never would have been able to challenge this deep down belief if I hadn’t pushed myself out into the world in spite of some almost paralyzing fears of what I might discover about myself. At first, I did get a lot of negative feedback, because I was so angry and hurt and defensive. Wounded. But I learned, over time, to change the way I interacted with people – first by watching how others interacted and trying to understand why I didn’t, and then by refining my interactions with the help of a therapist. I never would have guessed that, in doing all this, I would have found myself. Again. And knowing who I am – or at least, knowing more about who I am - has given me the courage and the strength to finally face this poisonous belief – and squash it.
Back to the image I have of you. You embraced life, and made changes to enable and enrich your everyday life. You didn't try to avoid this personal responsibility we all have. To make the world, our corner of the world a better place for you and for me...
Let's all sing together, We are the world, we are the children.......dah de dah du dum, so let's start livin', Hey, come on, I can't see your lips moving. :D :D Ah, I can never remember the words.
knowing, finally, after all this time, that I DIDN’T DESERVE IT. I AM NOT A MONSTER.
You most certainly are not, and never ever was. I hope the word monster recedes in your mind, and that you find new beautiful words replace it. Like warm, kindhearted, loyal, funny, catlover, goodlistener, generous, clutter/fridgemagnetfree, clean benchtoppped, Tom Petty fan kinda person, with a stomping cat named Astro who loves travel.
(((((HUG HUG))))) and love
CG
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Back again Wildflower, I loved reading this post.
And I should be proud to express myself – through clothing
. Gee I laughed when I read this. I'm really into attitude T-Shirts.
Friends give them to me sometimes. And I've got a poor old David Bowie t-shirt that I've had for about 25 years. It's been washed 10 million times and has holes and is paper thin, but I can't part with it. When it finally dies I'm gong to have wake for it.
But I love those attitude T-Shirts. You know the ones that if you haven't got the guts to say it, you wear it. Friends have tuned into this outrageously and buy them for me cause they know I'll wear it. I've got some beauties!!!
A black one with huge white lettering "Warning, this body contains, adult themes, nudity an strong language," :D
or then there's brown one in large letters" I'm a virgin" then underneath in small letters "this is a very old T-shirt." :wink:
Or the white one with the Nike tick turned upside down and the black words "Just did it". Ha ha ha ha, :D oops, nearly choked on my apple then. :oops:
Then there's my lovely feminine Barbie one with Barbie at mini-skirt best that reads, "Barbie is a slut." That one didn't go down well at the P&C meeting, I can tell you. :shock: Aaah, I love them.
Oh yes, and my all time favourite, the blue one, (blue's my favourite colour, then yellow, purple, green, more blue, turquoise, yellow again, then blue.) The blue one says, "Here, hold my beer while I snog your boyfriend." Loveit. Loveit Loveit.
It’s still really hard, though. I still feel like I’m not cool enough to pull off some of the clothing I kind of want to wear. I don’t know if this helps. I’m really just responding to your comment about not feeling like you’re worth spending that kind of money on.
I guess I've given up on that one at the moment. But hey, I'm saving heaps of money!!
It was a virgin moment. I was extremely anxious, clumsy and messy. But I was damned effective. My children may have witnessed her insanity and cruelty for abrief moment in their lives, but with me protecting them from her I don't think it has caused any lasting damage. I know they learned something about me then. And I gained some of my power back. There was a shift.
This must have been such a difficult, strange and exhilarating time for you. Were you married at that time, or did you have to do all the moving and detaching on your own?
No, I wasn't on my own, but I may as well have been. It was scarey, and over time I've realised it was instinctive, rather than calculated. Funny how had her evil been directed towards me, I don't think I would have noticed for weeks. The way my thoughts, feeling and emotions suffer jet lag and and an enormous time difference. But when evil or harm is directed towards others close me to I'm right onto it, and I don't panic or lose my cool. I'm a totally Cool Hand Luke in a crisis. It's something I've got a bit of a reputation for. At work also, when everyone else is in a flying panic, I'm completely able to think and stay totally cool.
I think it's because of a form of disassociation and depersonalisation. :D :D :D My emotions switch off when I'm threatened or scared, and something else takes over, "How we gonna get out of this huh" and I'm operating in an out of body way. I'm in the third person. It's not me, It's just a part of me. A therapist I had once said it was connected to PTSD. You know how in the movies, you'll see a scene of abattle situation. The new recruits are all ducking and hiding, but the seasoned soldiers and CO are wandering around, making plans, talking, ducking occasionally and lighting a fag. That's me. But hell, it's only useful if you're always in combat, and then you can still get your head blown off, and I don't want to always be in combat. I'd probably make a good ambulance driver except I can't stand the sight of blood.
Story. 20 years ago when my neice was only about 8 months old, I was visiting her house for a family get-together. Her mother came running out with her from the bedroom holding her. The poor baby was purple-faced, not breathing, choking. It took everyone by surprise and everyone froze, and don't ask how or why but I casually, I mean casually took her off her screaming mother and put my mouth over her nouth and nose and sucked for all I was worth. Something dislodged and flew into my mouth, which I just swallowed. I've got a really weak stomach and I didn't want to know what it was, but then she started breathing. We think it was a button off her jacket.
Then another time I just ran out in front of a car to grab another friends little boy, and held my arm up for the car to stop, while I scooped him up and off the road just in the nick of time before we both got run over. He just ran out onto the road for no reason when we were shopping. He was only about 2 then. I could go on, I've got quite a few of these rescue stories where I just go into some instinctive rescue mode when everyone else panic.
Yeah sure, and while I'm at it, why don't I go buy myself a bucket of death adders to keep me warm in bed tonight, you useless peice of ...."
:lol: :lol: :lol: Tell me you said that at some point because it’s hilarious.
I think I proabably would have, maybe worse. Fastest mouth in the west I have at times, but only when pushed.
I got similar reactions if the subject of my dad came up after he told me he’d spent all his money (on a third story to his second home among other things) so he couldn’t continue to pay for my college tuition. I was working as a summer intern at a bank when this typically aggressive banker type guy overheard me talking to one of the other secretaries about visiting my dad that weekend. I think I said something like “I’d rather burn in H***.” (These were my difficult years, mind you :roll: :wink: ). Well, he comes over and starts giving me a lecture about the importance of family and how his father and his sister stopped talking for years and years over some tiny little insignificant thing, so I should be careful not to do that and blah blah blah. I was so angry my eyes started tearing up and I came really close to punching him. Reeeally close.
What a supercilious, arrogant, loves the sound of his own voice, show-off disguised as well meaning, useless peice of dog-turd. Oh, I sincerely apologise to all dog-turds everywhere, as dog-turd is definitely not useless, my peach trees love it.
Hunh. Hadn’t intended to go on that tirade. :oops: :D Anyway, the conversation between you and Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff is talked about quite a bit in the book R recommended that I’m reading right now: When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends. The third chapter, “The Bad Mommy Taboo”, is all about how abusive mothers are protected by so many mechanisms in society – to the point where the needs/protection of the abused child are ignored in order to protect the sanctity of motherhood
. I'm gonna buy that book. You've got me interested.
From where I sit, reading your stories, I think your mother belongs in jail or in a mental ward for the criminally insane. :evil: I’m not kidding. The fact that she hasn’t been arrested for assault (setting someone on fire??) is astounding to me. Although I guess it’d be too embarrassing for a guy to go into a police station and explain how he got burned like that?
Poor guy lost I don't know how many layers of skin. She made a potion of stuff that they used on farms to burn warts off. Gosh it was awful. I sometimes wonder if the hair ever grew back or if he ever told anybody.
Was John the only one who ever stood up for you? Where were you when her other boyfriends were around (when she wasn’t having sex with them – I know where you were then, and yes, that has to be a form of sexual abuse :evil: )?
There were other occasional people, one brief boyfriend she had made me a jewellery box and gave me my first and only push-bike at about 10 years of age. But no intervention and most others didn't bother or were ineffective against her charm and cunning. She was absent so much, a wild party girl running with so many groups, crooks, gamblers, casino's etc. My mother loved having connections. She was very loose and a very vivacious attractive one. Never without a date, ever. And would dance till dawn every night of the week.
She looked so much like Elizabeth Taylor, and people would tell her that all the time. And so she dresed like her and wore her hair like her and changed her first name legally to Elizabth. And she's had more men than her, way more. And at home living with her was like living with Taylor in 'Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf' I spent so much time alone as a child and then finally I left after I found out my father had died. Gee that's alot of stuff I've said, isn't it. You probably need to stretch your legs now, I know I do. That'll learn teach you for asking me questions, won't it?
Thanks for reading Wildflower, and I will get that book when I do my next order from amazon. I'm amazed at the used book prices there. Have you ever bought any of there used ones? If so, what was the quality like?
Wow, I really have to go, I'm realising I've still got so much more work to do, and I've really enjoyed talking with you again.
((hug))
CG
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Hi Wildflower,
OMG, this is my 4th post in a row so I'm a bit embarrased. :oops: Nah, not really, what the hell!! :D :D
I've told you so much about my poor old mother and how she treated me and other people in her life, haven't I. And mostly I'm getting there in terms of putting her to rest in my head. R.I.P mother. But I was thinking you may be interested to know a bit about her background. What it was that went into making her the monster that she became.
As I said in a previous post, I can't afford to feel sympathy for her anymore, because somehow my resolve weakens and I let her back in. But I don't fear that happening here, so I'll tell you some of what I know.
I've had a lot to do with one of her sisters so it all pretty much gels from everyones version.
My mother was born somewhere in the middle of 6 or 7 brothers and sisters and as I've said was very pretty, even as a child. And somehow she had a ruthless creative prankster streak even then. Her sister and even she (mother brags about them herself) have told me some pretty cruel and mean things she did to her brothers and sisters even at ages 5 & 6. Her father was an alcoholic and one time to get money for beer he sold his kids pet dog. Her mother had all these kids and not much money, so the kids did without a lot of things, like shop bought items, but because they had a farm they were self-sufficient during the depression.
One day when she was about 9 or 10 walking the 2 or 3 mile journey home from school with her 2 older sisters an old guy invited them into his cabin for some lollies. He lived alone in a worker's cottage by the side of the road in the farming community they lived in. They'd been warned to stay away from him, and also had been warned and were told he was a dirty old man. Her mother used to drag them all off to Sunday School and Church every Sunday, rain, hail or snow.
Her sister's refused to go in and told her not to, but she argued with them, told them basically to bugger off, she didn't care if she did get into trouble, and in she went, into the old guys cabin. They ran home and told their mother what she'd done. Her mother didn't go and get her, she had babies and work and animals and had to wait till my mother finally got home. When she got home much much later she was interrogated and inspected against her will. Her mother believed she had done something 'dirty' with the old man for some lollies. She denied she had, but her mother, and her by then home and furious drunken father didn't believe her.
They packed her up and sent her to live in a Methodist home for pregnant and 'naughty girls' where she had to stay till she was old enough to be signed out by a family member, who happened to be one of her older sisters. One of the one's who'd told their mother on her all those years before. She was 18 by then and completely full of hate and never had forgiven her sisters for telling on her. She always said they told on her because they were jealous because she was prettier than them.
She can and could never grasp that they were only kids themselves and scared. After she got out of the home she went to live with that older sister who was now married to an accountant, and living a very conventional happy life. In exchange for free rent and food she was supposed to look after her older sister's young baby daughter while her sisiter and brother-in-law worked. Mother said her sister only signed her out to get a free babysitter. She wasn't living there long before she set about being extremely cruel to their baby when they were at work. So they kicked her out. The rest of her family wanted nothing to do with her at all by this stage so she became a dancer and card dealer in casino, and a wild girl about town. I was born 2 years later, when she was 20. And the rest, as they say, is history.
I grew up on a heavy diet her 'poor me' stories. Her sister, my aunty is a really good mother and a very loving understanding aunty to me. I didn't meet her till after I'd left home. But one thing I promised myself, I'd never fill my kids heads with my horror stories, and I haven't. And I'd never excuse my behaviour towards my children with anything from my childhood experience and I haven't. So I think that's good. :D Tricky stuff this parenting business!
I thought you might find the background interesting because I've talked about her with you so much. But you know, it always broke my heart when she told me stories about missing her brothers and her life in the home, and having xmas, and birthdays in the home with no presents. I think I used to spoil her for a while when I got older, till I had a family. I bet her wrapping paper trick, she learned that in the home. See, I can understand her, and start to feel sorry for her so quickly. That's why I don't go there anymore. It's like, "Hmmm, who shall I blame next, her mother and father?"
No, I think I'll stop looking for someone to blame, and put it all in the context of the theatre of the absurd, and just take responsibility for and work on my shit. Then maybe I can do everything I need to make sure the rot stops here with me. :wink: What do you reckon??
((hug))
CG
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Hi Wildflower,
OMG, this is my 4th post in a row so I'm a bit embarrased. :oops: Nah, not really, what the hell!! :D :D
I've told you so much about my poor old mother and how she treated me and other people in her life, haven't I. And mostly I'm getting there in terms of putting her to rest in my head. R.I.P mother. But I was thinking you may be interested to know a bit about her background. What it was that went into making her the monster that she became.
As I said in a previous post, I can't afford to feel sympathy for her anymore, because somehow my resolve weakens and I let her back in. But I don't fear that happening here, so I'll tell you some of what I know.
I've had a lot to do with one of her sisters so it all pretty much gels from everyones version.
My mother was born somewhere in the middle of 6 or 7 brothers and sisters and as I've said was very pretty, even as a child. And somehow she had a ruthless creative prankster streak even then. Her sister and even she (mother brags about them herself) have told me some pretty cruel and mean things she did to her brothers and sisters even at ages 5 & 6. Her father was an alcoholic and one time to get money for beer he sold his kids pet dog. Her mother had all these kids and not much money, so the kids did without a lot of things, like shop bought items, but because they had a farm they were self-sufficient during the depression.
One day when she was about 9 or 10 walking the 2 or 3 mile journey home from school with her 2 older sisters an old guy invited them into his cabin for some lollies. He lived alone in a worker's cottage by the side of the road in the farming community they lived in. They'd been warned to stay away from him, and also had been warned and were told he was a dirty old man. Her mother used to drag them all off to Sunday School and Church every Sunday, rain, hail or snow.
Her sister's refused to go in and told her not to, but she argued with them, told them basically to bugger off, she didn't care if she did get into trouble, and in she went, into the old guys cabin. They ran home and told their mother what she'd done. Her mother didn't go and get her, she had babies and work and animals and had to wait till my mother finally got home. When she got home much much later she was interrogated and inspected against her will. Her mother believed she had done something 'dirty' with the old man for some lollies. She denied she had, but her mother, and her by then home and furious drunken father didn't believe her.
They packed her up and sent her to live in a Methodist home for pregnant and 'naughty girls' where she had to stay till she was old enough to be signed out by a family member, who happened to be one of her older sisters. One of the one's who'd told their mother on her all those years before. She was 18 by then and completely full of hate and never had forgiven her sisters for telling on her. She always said they told on her because they were jealous because she was prettier than them.
She can and could never grasp that they were only kids themselves and scared. After she got out of the home she went to live with that older sister who was now married to an accountant, and living a very conventional happy life. In exchange for free rent and food she was supposed to look after her older sister's young baby daughter while her sisiter and brother-in-law worked. Mother said her sister only signed her out to get a free babysitter. She wasn't living there long before she set about being extremely cruel to their baby when they were at work. So they kicked her out. The rest of her family wanted nothing to do with her at all by this stage so she became a dancer and card dealer in casino, and a wild girl about town. I was born 2 years later, when she was 20. And the rest, as they say, is history.
I grew up on a heavy diet her 'poor me' stories. Her sister, my aunty is a really good mother and a very loving understanding aunty to me. I didn't meet her till after I'd left home. But one thing I promised myself, I'd never fill my kids heads with my horror stories, and I haven't. And I'd never excuse my behaviour towards my children with anything from my childhood experience and I haven't. So I think that's good. :D Tricky stuff this parenting business!
I thought you might find the background interesting because I've talked about her with you so much. But you know, it always broke my heart when she told me stories about missing her brothers and her life in the home, and having xmas, and birthdays in the home with no presents. I think I used to spoil her for a while when I got older, till I had a family. I bet her wrapping paper trick, she learned that in the home. See, I can understand her, and start to feel sorry for her so quickly. That's why I don't go there anymore. It's like, "Hmmm, who shall I blame next, her mother and father?"
No, I think I'll stop looking for someone to blame, and put it all in the context of the theatre of the absurd, and just take responsibility for and work on my shit. Then maybe I can do everything I need to make sure the rot stops here with me. :wink: What do you reckon??
((hug))
CG
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Hi CG,
And I just have such hard time seeing your mom fighting for her independance!!
If you haven’t seen this movie you probably shouldn’t, but if you want to get a sense of who my mother was rebelling, think Joan Crawford in "Mommy Dearest". Complete with tantrums – though I don’t think she ever beat my mom with wire hangers. She was that controlling and invasive – and that much of a clean freak.
For me to clean up or go anywhere near my mother’s ‘territory’ was an invasion. And somewhere along the line, she made the connection between her mom and my dad – and at various points in my life, I reminded her of Dad, Grandmom, or herself depending on the situation. While she fought against Dad and Grandmom (against me) for independence, she was identifying with me (receiving support from me) as I struggle through life - but she didn't have any answers for me so she let me drift.
So by controlling me, by silencing me, she was able to keep her own life under control. And by leaving me to my own devices, she was "ending the cycle". What a strange and confusing mix of signals, hunh? :shock: I'm gonna leave you all alone when I can't deal with it, and if you remind me of my mother or your father, I'm gonna beat you down so I don't get hurt. That’s my current understanding in any case. Probably need to do some more tinkering with these theories, though. :?
Combine this with this very interesting paragraph from When You Can’t Be Friends:
But even if the mother is altogether “bad” and the child can’t avoid that conclusion, she explains it to herself by believing she is a bad girl and deserves her mother’s anger and rejection. At the same time, the child, in her normal, egocentric way, believes that her anger has the power to annihilate. And so the child guards against her own bad feelings, because she doesn’t want to hurt Mommy. Either way, the child has “caused” her mommy to be “bad.”
and I think we have the missing piece to how I ‘lost’ myself around her. I'm not saying she was altogether "bad", but Secunda goes on to explain how, without enough positive reinforcement to help the child learn to resolve the "good" and "bad" mommies, she internalizes the Bad Mommy. I think. :?
Anyway....
They packed her up and sent her to live in a Methodist home for pregnant and 'naughty girls' where she had to stay till she was old enough to be signed out by a family member, who happened to be one of her older sisters. One of the one's who'd told their mother on her all those years before. She was 18 by then and completely full of hate and never had forgiven her sisters for telling on her. She always said they told on her because they were jealous because she was prettier than them.
Wow, CG, this seems to go a long way to explaining the Why’s, don’t you think? So she parked you in front of the orphanage just like she had been? :idea: Only she was really left there. I’m not suggesting you should empathize with her, but it does begin to explain her need for revenge. And it explains something else that you hinted at with the wrapping – :idea: she wasn’t really that creative. :shock: Heck, she even modeled her life and hair and everything after a movie star. Even changed her name. She may have been cold and cruel enough to play those awful tricks, but as R so wisely pointed out, she was stupidly cruel. And she didn't have the guts to be herself instead of stealing the identity of a movie star. Maybe even the cat story could be traced down to some story she read (but acted on!! :shock: :shock: :shock: ).
So they kicked her out. The rest of her family wanted nothing to do with her at all by this stage so she became a dancer and card dealer in casino, and a wild girl about town. I was born 2 years later, when she was 20. And the rest, as they say, is history.
Again, this really paints so much more of a clear picture in terms of why she was so sexually active – especially in front of you. Not that it was excusable, no way. But I’m wondering what it must have been like to be there through all of that – a child living with a woman like that. A child trying to negotiate the world she created for herself.
On my way to work this morning, it occurred to me that it must have been so shocking to hear those stories – coming from your mother. When it’s a movie, we suspend disbelief, and when it's over we shake it off or say wow wasn't that a scary story. :idea: But here you were listening to the woman who was supposed to take care of you, and she was telling you horror stories. Real horror stories. Did you want to run but had to stay there and listen? Seems to me a fantastic reason to learn to disassociate – if fight or flight aren’t options, switch off the emotions. :shock:
I guess what I’m getting at is that you’re right. You can’t feel sorry for her, but maybe you can look at what happened in your story from the outside. Imagine another little girl in your place struggling to cope with all the hard things you had to cope with. The bit about being a child of the Depression – maybe even that’s a good, safe, objective place to start. My grandmother was also a child of the Depression – and I think her father was an alcoholic, too. Maybe NPD is a historical/cultural phenomenon. A cycle that’s been going on since a very traumatic time in history – one we’re only beginning to heal from.
Maybe I’m babbling at this point, but if you can, I think it might really help to be able to reconstruct your story – YOUR story. Not stories about the awful things she did (though those are important to understanding what happened), but the story of your survival – what you had to do to get here, today, with your children, your husband, and us. :D
You are an amazing survival story, CG. :D How you managed to come out so strong and caring and kind in the face of all tha tyucky stuff is a mystery to me. But I'm so glad you did. :D
Well, it’s time for me to go recharge my batteries out in the world for a little while. See how it feels to wander without the monster monkey. :D I’ll be here, though. Just probably won’t be able to respond as often.
((((BIG HUG THAT SQUISHES OUT ALL THE BAD STUFF)))) :D :D :D
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower,
I can't believe you responded after all those posts of mine.
And how that last one got postd twice :oops: :oops: don't know how I managed that??
I feel so :oops: like I've become another monkey on your back.
Go out there into the big wide world. Be FREEEEEEEEE. :D
Like your motto says. there are a million ways to be FREEEEEEEE!!! :D
Be free here to post wherever you want. You're FREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
And I want you to be free of me too, cause I luv ya' :oops: :oops:
Hey, maybe we should run an ad here
Positions vacant.
Wanted. Some really cool listener, carer and sharer who will give Wildflower a break from this 'healing' thread, and take over listening to CG's crap. Feeble minded need not apply! HAHA HA HA HA HA. :D :D :D
I hope you get the joke and don't feel insulted, but, my gosh woman, you are so DAMNED DAMNED DAMNED WONDERFUL :!: :!: :!: :!:
Nah, anyway, in the fist place, no-one would want the job, :shock: I sure know I bloody wouldn't!
And in the second place, you're so unique, I'd be firing everybody who followed you cause now you've spoilt me and my standards would be too high and unrealistic, and I'd always be making unfavourable comparisons. Nobody would be able to live up to you or fill your shoes.
So I guess we'll have to delete the position. :oops: Oh well!! :cry: looks like I'm gonna have to be responsible for myself, Damn :D :D :D Aaah, I love a challenge!
You should be out there mixing it and sharing it the big wide world, and on this board, you've got so much life and love to enjoy and live and share.
And can I tell you something else, I've had a strange realisation creeping over me the past couple of weeks. I've been looking at people out there with different eyes. I've been thinking when I'm out there, in the big wide world, "hey there are nice people out here, people who once I get to know them, I find I like them!"
There are people who do care and who have warm hearts even, and they've had crap to deal with too. People just like me, who, given the opportunity, would be really nice to get to know. People like you Wildflower. And Rosencrantz, Portia, bunny, Write, Lynn, Dawning, Nikole, Lizbeth, and Nic and whoever else posts here."
I'm on the lookout now for these types of people. It's a bit like pickin' fly shit out of pepper, may take a while, but oh well :wink:
So I get what you say about getting out in the world, and trying the new experience of experiencing life and the world with NOTHIN' on your back. Go Baby!!!
Thanks for walking this part of the way with me Wildflower, and I so look forward to future chats with you here. But don't you dare allow me to drain you, or ever feel 'obligated' that you 'have to' reply to me. YUK! :D I'd hate that!! :D :D You've had enough of that in your life, and so have I. Please Be FREEEEEEE!!!!
Get those fish, party, mix with who you want to, mingle, ignore who you want to, express through dress, yeah!!!
And I'm definitely buying that book. That part you quoted about internalizing the bad mummy was a bit freaky and definitely not something I think I want to ignore or overlook.
Yep, your not the first one who's mentioned me focussing on 'My Story'. GUILTY. :oops:
And I was going to ask you what style of clothes would express you, but I feel it might just be hooking you in to another round. So I'll say this, having come to appreciate your style the way I have, I bet you would look FANTASTIC and it would be beautiful. So go on, do it!
Love ((hug)) and meow to Astor
CG
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Thanks so much for the cheering, CG :D . And I’m so, so happy for you that you’re seeing people with new eyes :D :D :D :D.
But please don’t put up a help wanted sign, okay? I gotta go look for some more flowers amidst all this concrete, but I’m here, okay? I just wanted you to know that so that you wouldn’t feel it was anything you’d said if you didn’t hear from me during my usual night-owl hours. So keep writing! Keep telling your stories and asking questions! Keep up the amazing work you've been doing! :D :D :D
Definitely get the book though. It’s really good. And I’ll be reading it, too :D .
Love and hugs,
Wildflower
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You know, I just had a thought. Put up a help wanted sign - because you DESERVE all the kindness and support you need. You've had it rough, CG, but as you said in an earlier post, you're made of tough stuff. Nice to have people here to find the not-so-tough stuff, isn't it? :D :D :D
Just don't take my position down, cos I'm still here. :D
((((CG))))
Wildflower
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I'm really sorry I haven't been reading for a while, guys. I just haven't got the emotional energy just now. I know you'll understand. Just as long as you don't think I can't be bothered!! I'll be back!!!
S/R
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Hi CG,
This just popped into my head so I thought I’d share it with you :D :
What if you wrote your story for your children? I know you don’t want to shock them with your stories the way your mother did, but what if you could find a way to tell them who you were, who you became, how you loved them, and why you loved them the way you did. Something to help them understand – something to give them when they’re older. When they’re all grown up. A way to understand how strong you’ve been, and why they don’t know their grandmother. It could be a gift, instead of a burden. :D
Wildflower
(aka, the Wanderer)
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Hi Wildflower,
Aren't you just the most clever little cookie. You know, I am actually doing that very thing. Some in poetry form, some short stories. I've done some gore, not much. I still wanna ask you, so go on, tell me, how would you express through dress??
((hugs)) and thanks for the big squishy hug yesterday,
CG
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Hi CG,
You know, I really don't know how I'd like to dress. I'm just annoyed with my conservative/safe clothes. Ah, but my poor friends can only handle so much change at a time - and they've just settled in to the new colors in my wardrobe. :roll: :D
Oh, and the tv show? WKRP in Cincinatti. :lol: :oops: :lol: :oops:
:D
((CG))
Wildflower
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And she pushed me away because she couldn’t deal with the responsibility of really taking care of a child. This reinforced the monster message, because it said to me that I was so bad, even my own mother couldn’t bear to spend time with me. :cry: :cry: :cry:
How she managed to project her own image into and onto you has got me beat!!!! I don't know how the hell she did, but I KNOW, DAMN IT, that that's what she did to you. DAMN IT!! Can anyone explain this to me?????
CG
Hi Wildflower, this part still really really really trips me up, and it's so bloody infuriating, makes me feel like such thickky. (crossed-eyed emoticon)
I guess and really hope this will be answered when I get the book, right on!!
Nah, don't know that TV show, damn. But I soooo love Niles in 'Frasier'.
And colourful clothes, how totally alive and full of feeling.
But hey, black is so stunning and slimming.
Hey, truth or dare, what were you at your heaviest? :D
((Higs)) what's a hig? :shock:
CG
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Hi CG,
Hey, truth or dare, what were you at your heaviest?
Hmmm. Dare?? :oops: No, just kidding. I’d give you my weight but I think the sizes give a more dramatic picture. At my heaviest, I was around an 18 or 20 in US sizing. In college, I managed to get down to an average 14 (a little up, a little down :wink: ). And now I’m at a size 10 (and pretty much at my ideal weight) and have been for years. Wahoo. :D
And she pushed me away because she couldn’t deal with the responsibility of really taking care of a child. This reinforced the monster message, because it said to me that I was so bad, even my own mother couldn’t bear to spend time with me. :cry: :cry: :cry:
How she managed to project her own image into and onto you has got me beat!!!! I don't know how the hell she did, but I KNOW, DAMN IT, that that's what she did to you. DAMN IT!! Can anyone explain this to me?????
CG
Hi Wildflower, this part still really really really trips me up, and it's so bloody infuriating, makes me feel like such thickky. (crossed-eyed emoticon)
I didn’t explain it well, probably because it’s still new to me, but here goes take 2. :wink:
When my mom was interacting with me, it was mostly criticism. Not always, but mostly. And honestly, I didn’t really trust her compliments because they usually ended up being either back-handed or something I didn’t feel good about. But that’s just when she was interacting with me, which was pretty rare. If I asked her to do anything with me, she’d put me off. She never said no, she just put me off (later, in a little while, maybe in a minute). And if she was in the middle of something, which was often because she had a ton of hobbies, she’d say “not now.” And when she got home from work, she took long naps (2-4 hours), so that I really never saw much of her. So, I got the message that she didn’t want to be with me. And I made the connection that, because she was always criticizing me, she didn’t want to be with me because I was bad. Because I was deeply flawed. But even that was intensified by the fact that when I was 8 and upset over the loss of my good dad – and the loss of so many other things that went with him including friends – she accused me of being like my real (N) dad. The message I got then was that my dad was evil, and since I was like him (people always told us we were practically identical twins – and she reminded me of it all the time) I was evil, too.
So, the reality is/was that she pushed me away because she was irresponsible and couldn’t handle taking care of a child. But what I heard, the message I received, was that I was so bad, my own mother didn't want to be with me. Bad because I was my father’s daughter. I had it in me to be evil like him, and every time she criticized me, she was ‘saving’ me from myself. But more often than that, she just didn’t want to be with me – I was just too bad for her to manage. Or, I was so bad, she had to sleep because I was such a burden on her. Wore her out. :cry: :cry: :cry:
So for years, I've been carrying this around and it has affected everything I do, I know that. I think it's even the root cause of my chronic insomnia since I was, gee, oh, 9. For the past couple of weeks, I've actually fallen asleep easily. It's so weird. Fantastic, but weird.
Does that make more sense? :?
I’m still learning the ropes of how to say what I’m feeling when it comes to the present. I’m so much better at hashing out things I’ve been over a hundred times from the past. And that’s why I want to take another shot at trying to express what I wanted to say last night (but boy did I fumble :oops: ), because it’s important to me You’re important to me.
I see you here, and you’ve done so much in such a short amount of time. You’ve even got a name now :D . You trust people here. :D And I want you to keep trusting people here. I want to be here for you when I can - and you’re NOT a monkey/burden. Talking with you helps me sort stuff out, too, and your questions make me search a little harder – and even make me feel like someone cares. :D But I also need to make sure that I go out into the world and see how what I’ve learned has changed the way I see things. So I’m trying to learn to take care of myself and do what I need to do, but I also want to make sure that you know that if you don’t hear from me for a little while, it’s not AT ALL because of anything you said or how much you have to say.
Gosh I have a lot to learn… :roll:
Anyway, miss space traveler. That’s all for me tonight. Gonna try to actually get to bed at a reasonable hour for once. :shock: :D
Wildflower
P.S. - A hig is a hippo-pig. :D
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Hi there Wildflower,
And now I’m at a size 10 (and pretty much at my ideal weight) and have been for years. Wahoo. :D
That must feel sooooo good, and you can wear so much more of what you like and it's so much easier to buy for, hey, and so much les cloth to iron :D :D Man, that was unhealthy before, huh. I wahoo with you :D Thank goodness you lost it. That is a huge weight loss, absolutely fantastic!! :D
If I asked her to do anything with me, she’d put me off. She never said no, she just put me off (later, in a little while, maybe in a minute). And if she was in the middle of something, which was often because she had a ton of hobbies, she’d say “not now.” And when she got home from work, she took long naps (2-4 hours), so that I really never saw much of her. So, I got the message that she didn’t want to be with me. And I made the connection that, because she was always criticizing me, she didn’t want to be with me because I was bad. Because I was deeply flawed.
Oh my gosh, that is so awful, and so easy to do, to say "wait" to kids, or "not now, later". And easy, even with the best intentions. I just memo'd myself. Do a self-inventory, and make sure I'm not doing this. And she had tons of hobbies, I wonder why??? Distraction maybe. Easily bored??? I suppose a lot of the self-improvement stuff wasn't as easily available back then. It's such a shame she never took up the hobby to get help to learn how to parent.
But even that was intensified by the fact that when I was 8 and upset over the loss of my good dad – and the loss of so many other things that went with him including friends – she accused me of being like my real (N) dad. The message I got then was that my dad was evil, and since I was like him (people always told us we were practically identical twins – and she reminded me of it all the time) I was evil, too.
Blaaaah, blaaaah, fingers down throat, blaaaaah blaaaah, gotta spew!!!! Gotta work to get the taste of that one out of my mouth. Know it toooooo well :x
So, the reality is/was that she pushed me away because she was irresponsible and couldn’t handle taking care of a child. But what I heard, the message I received, was that I was so bad, my own mother didn't want to be with me. Bad because I was my father’s daughter. I had it in me to be evil like him, and every time she criticized me, she was ‘saving’ me from myself. But more often than that, she just didn’t want to be with me – I was just too bad for her to manage. Or, I was so bad, she had to sleep because I was such a burden on her.
Wore her out. :cry: :cry: :cry:
Oh my gosh, that gives me an ache for you. I hope I never make my kids feel like that, even for a moment. It's really quite sickening isn't it, to have that type of influence and power over a small innocent child's psyche and life and misuse it so.
I can see that poor little girl you were, struggling for your mother's affection and approval. Gosh, I just want to give her a really big big hug, and tell her she's just perfect the way she is, and that she and her needs are not the problem at all. And that she's not to think she, or anything she is or does, is to, or try to take the blame. And maybe she'd do that, take the blame I mean, just because she loves her mommy so much and sees her mommy as beautiful and perfect.
So for years, I've been carrying this around and it has affected everything I do, I know that. I think it's even the root cause of my chronic insomnia since I was, gee, oh, 9. For the past couple of weeks, I've actually fallen asleep easily. It's so weird. Fantastic, but weird.
Does that make more sense? :?
Isn't that so good, the sleeping bit, oh boy I'm glad. :D :D
:D And I want you to keep trusting people here. I want to be here for you when I can -
I get what you're saying Wildflower, thankyou so much.
. Gonna try to actually get to bed at a reasonable hour for once.
Oh, I know, it's so true, we human's need our sleep. fuuny how sleep is one of the first things to go when things start getting tough. It's a real sign isn't it.
P.S. - A hig is a hippo-pig.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Well another big ((HIG)) to you and talk to you later. I'm rounding up my book order to amazon, oh soooo exciting, the list is growing, it'll be like xmas when it comes. :D :D
CG
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Gosh I’ve been all over the place in the past few days. Just when you think you’ve got it all figgered out, WHAP, CRASH, WAAAAAAAAAHHHH.
So, I was wondering. When are you gonna setup shop and teach a class in comedy for the emotionally constipated? :D Oh, boy.
Thanks for taking the time to parse through my icky mom stuff, CG.
(((((((CG))))))))
Wildflower
P.S. - Super big thanks for the HIGS. :D :D They're making my cat kinda nervous, but I think he'll be okay. He's super friendly. :D
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Hi Wildflower,
How ya goin'. I read on Rosencrantz's thread that you were feeling a bit blue. I get the best ideas when I'm blue. I write the best letters and reach out to people I've loved and forgotten about then too. So for me, good things come out of being blue, and it ain't so bad.
I was going to tell you something the other day about when or how or why I think I had a bit of unexpected healing take place in me about 3 or 4 years ago. I had a near dear experience. Well, sort of a near death experience. Well, nearly a near death experience. I 'm sort of used to them because I think I have one every time I go out in the car. :D No, No, I tell a lie, it's not me that has them at all when I go out driving, I think it's me who gives them to the other drivers. HAHAHAHHAHAHA :D :
Anyway, before I rudely interrupted myself, I was going to tell you what happened. I had a cancer. A nasty scarey little bugger. And it was found purely coincidentally and by-the-way. That time between finding it and the scan and tests was the greatest reality shift I'd ever had. I really learned what and who was important to me then. I'd had mini reality checks before but nothing like that. They got it (the cancer) all out and I'm fine.
Then I had 2 more life-scares with the following 12 months. Both with my child, once with a serious electrocution which shot out of his hands and feet, and fortunately there was no organ damage. But I had plenty of time to think about what was important when I was sleeping in hospital with him for nearly a week. He had deep holes in hands and feet, and later daily trips to the burns unit and for dressing changes and then skin grafts.
Then within 6 month I nearly lost him from Meningococcal. I slept in isolation with him for just on 5 days while they pumped him full of so much anti-biotics. It took 4 or 5 days alone for his 42 fever to break. I thought he wasn't going to make it. He was 23 Kilo's when that virus hit him, (from playing in one of those bloody indoor playground ballrooms we think) and when he came out of it he was 14 kilo's. He was so emaciated I couldn't eat either.
I bargained with the devil, with God, with the earth spirits, the spirits of my ancestors, you name it. It felt like I was living under a curse at the time, but then I realise I wasn't. And when everything settled down, I realised I didn't give a shit about a whole lot of stuff anymore.
Now it was, "Hey son, are they your toys all over the my nice clean floor, cool baby, can I come and play with you?"
Since then I've thought a fair bit about what's important in my life, in the context of death, dying or losing someone special.
And I think the horrible things that have happened with people in the past (like mother), or people in my present who may keep hurting or trying to manipulate me, seem less and less important and just plain not worthy of my time.
I'm constantly reminded that my real life is only here and now, and spending my life with and on the people I love and care about is the only real game in town. The past is now just a bunch of memories. Even my cat who I bought for my son, gives me so much pleasure. I get more love from that cat in one day, than I got out of my dumb mother in 35 years. Where am I gonna invest my love and energy?
So I've made a lot of changes, slowly. I think before, my memories were driving me to make decisions and go in a direction that, suddenly, I realised I didn't really want to go, or to a place I didn't really want to be.
Now it's my real life, the present and the important, that I try to ensure is responsible for my decisions.
I hope the blues turn out to be a beautiful blue, it's my favourite colour.
((((HIG))))
CG
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PS, :D forgot to add, I was re-reading through your "I don't think I want to dance with you with you anymore thread." That's a good read with a cup of coffee. :D I got a lot out of it, there's a lot of good stuff in there. But I'm mainly thinking about the four agreements Rosencrantz talked about in there and what a good compass they are. That's not what I wanted to tell you but that keeps popping into my mind too???? Curious???? And I can't get the idea back that I had!!! Damn it!!!
I saw a book the other day by the same name (The four agreements) in a book shop. It must be the same?? Anyway, thought I'd throw that in. But that re-reading that thread, in the light of this one, it gave me an idea I wanted to share with you about you and your mum, but now I've lost it again temporarily. Oh well, I'll go back and re-read, loosen the line a bit till it nibbles again then I'll give it a hard yank and reel it in and let you know what it was.
(((HIG)))
CG
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Hi CG,
Anyway, before I rudely interrupted myself, I was going to tell you what happened. I had a cancer. A nasty scarey little bugger. And it was found purely coincidentally and by-the-way. That time between finding it and the scan and tests was the greatest reality shift I'd ever had. I really learned what and who was important to me then. I'd had mini reality checks before but nothing like that. They got it (the cancer) all out and I'm fine.
Was this the tumor in your leg or something else? That must have been so scary that the doctor’s just stumbled upon it. :( Was your husband supportive through it all? Did you have to have all those tough chemo treatments?
Both with my child, once with a serious electrocution which shot out of his hands and feet, and fortunately there was no organ damage. But I had plenty of time to think about what was important when I was sleeping in hospital with him for nearly a week. He had deep holes in hands and feet, and later daily trips to the burns unit and for dressing changes and then skin grafts.
Then within 6 month I nearly lost him from Meningococcal. I slept in isolation with him for just on 5 days while they pumped him full of so much anti-biotics. It took 4 or 5 days alone for his 42 fever to break. I thought he wasn't going to make it. He was 23 Kilo's when that virus hit him, (from playing in one of those bloody indoor playground ballrooms we think) and when he came out of it he was 14 kilo's. He was so emaciated I couldn't eat either.
OMG CG, you must have felt so helpless. :cry: :cry: Two major random events like that (not to mention the skaky bit about your cancer), threatening to take your child. How is he now? Are his burns healed? Is he okay and feeling safe again?
Now it was, "Hey son, are they your toys all over the my nice clean floor, cool baby, can I come and play with you?"
That’s such a beautiful image. Once again, that says it all to me and I have no worries about your mothering skills. I feel it here and I see it in what you write about them. Lucky babies. :D How many are there and how old are they? I'm so sorry if I missed that in an earlier posting.
Thank you so much for sharing your own experiences with a bit of unexpected healing. Is okay to say I feel like I’m going through this same process, but on a tiny scale, right now? Can I do that without minimizing your very real fight with illness and death and the loss of your child? My life was building up and I was feeling more and more human, and then pow – bad news from the mom front, and now I feel as though my life is being threatened, and I’m not sure whether I’m going to pull through or not. Will I get sucked back in (and die) or will I find the strength to pull out of this?
The thing is, this isn’t just a spiritual battle. This is making me physically ill, too. And not just the panic attack I had a month ago. In October, a month after an earlier really bad phone call with mom (just a 7 on the Richter scale in contrast to last month’s 9), I ended up going to the ER at 4AM because I was in so much pain and could barely lift my head off my pillow to roll over or sit up. And I had a numb spot on my thigh that I’d noticed a few days before. The ER doc sent me home with some pain killers and a referral to a neurologist. The neurologist checked out okay, but of course, I was spooked. Then I had some bleeding that I won’t go into here, but that was pretty damn scary, too. Again, everything seemed to be normal at the doctor’s office. So now, duh, I realize it was the stress. And looking back, I see that the stress and pain and feelings I shove down seep out in physical ways. Funny how, as a child, I was always getting sick. :roll:
Still, I can’t help thinking that all this trouble with mom has been given to me as a gift (is that too self-centered?). A gift meant to help me understand what happened when I was little and helpless so that I can finally cut myself loose and kick out the demons. And that’s why I’m trying so hard to take full advantage of this gift while it’s here. Learn from it while I still can.
Last night wasn’t so great at first (thanks for asking), but I think I just really needed to grieve. So many bad memories have been surfacing and I want to put them to rest. So I was washing the dishes (a piece of me thinking of Portia) and reeling from the bit I posted on R’s ‘letter to mom’ thread in an attempt to provide contrast so that R wouldn’t be too hard on herself. Writing it out brought all those feelings to the surface, and tears were streaming down my face because all I could think was “She knew. She knew. And she did nothing.” I feel betrayed. :cry: I was gripping the sink as my thoughts gravitated back to mom. “I’m sorry mom (sobbing now), I’m really so sorry. I wish I could tell you that you broke the chain, but you didn’t, and I’m so sorry for you because of that. You softened the blow, but you didn’t break the chain. I wish I could take all that pain away from you (really sobbing now). If I could take all that pain inside me and squash it for you I would, but I can’t. I really, truly would, but I can’t.”
Suddenly I stopped crying. Tears dried up, pain gone. What? What did I just say?? “If I could take all that pain inside me and squash it for you I would.” If only I could take it all on my shoulders, then it would be my problem, and I could fix this whole mess. It would be my problem, and I’d be able to squash it – because I’m stronger than you and I’ve found a way out. Then we could love each other without all this pain. But I can’t do it. That’s what I’ve been trying to do for so long, but I can’t do it anymore. :cry: :cry:
It’s like Mom’s been bitten by this really poisonous snake, and I’ve been trying so hard to suck the poison out of the wound so she won’t die. Trouble is, there’s too much poison and it’s making me sick, and the poison has already gone into her bloodstream. She needs a doctor, but she’s gotten used to the poison in her system and she won’t go to the hospital. She doesn’t think it’s that big of a deal. So what do I do? Sit here and watch her die? It’s all I can do, and it sucks. :cry: :cry:
And when everything settled down, I realised I didn't give a shit about a whole lot of stuff anymore.
Today I sat outside in the sun during lunch and watched the people go by. There was a young man sitting nearby and I was struck by the fact that if I’d been sitting there like that a couple of weeks ago, I’d be thinking about how annoyed this guy must be to sit near me. Surely there must be something about me that would annoy him if he happened to notice me. Please don't notice me. That's so sad and yukky. But today, I sat, and he bobbed in and out of my landscape as I thought, ahhhh. I haven’t a single bad intention, a single bad thought, a single bad anything in me right now. There’s nothing to worry about. And there’s no reason for anyone here to want me to go away. And if they do, it’s not because of me. It’s because of something going on with them. And that’s okay. People have problems. Good days and bad days. Nothing to do with me. So I’m just going to sit here for another five minutes and be nothing but relaxed while I enjoy this spring sun.
I think I’m gonna pull through this. :)
Oh well, I'll go back and re-read, loosen the line a bit till it nibbles again then I'll give it a hard yank and reel it in and let you know what it was.
Maybe I’ll join you and drop in a line and we can chat while waiting for bites and looking for R’s double-rainbows. :D R, Portia, do you guys have fishing poles?
(((((((HIG)))))))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower :D I'm doin' your trick and poppin' in while I'm supposed o be workin'. Gosh, I've got so much paperwork, I can't jump over it, so I'm takin' a quick break, haven't got too long, but bugger it, I'm spendin' it with you. Just made myself a half a cuppa too. Still no fags. Yippee. :D
My life was building up and I was feeling more and more human, and then pow – bad news from the mom front, and now I feel as though my life is being threatened, and I’m not sure whether I’m going to pull through or not. Will I get sucked back in (and die) or will I find the strength to pull out of this?
You'll find the strength, I'm sure of it, but so often it's 3 steps forward 2 steps back, isn't it. But in the end it still is solid progress :D :D
The thing is, this isn’t just a spiritual battle. This is making me physically ill, too. And not just the panic attack I had a month ago. In October, a month after an earlier really bad phone call with mom (just a 7 on the Richter scale in contrast to last month’s 9), I ended up going to the ER at 4AM because I was in so much pain and could barely lift my head off my pillow to roll over or sit up. And I had a numb spot on my thigh that I’d noticed a few days before. The ER doc sent me home with some pain killers and a referral to a neurologist. The neurologist checked out okay, but of course, I was spooked. Then I had some bleeding that I won’t go into here, but that was pretty damn scary, too. Again, everything seemed to be normal at the doctor’s office. So now, duh, I realize it was the stress. And looking back, I see that the stress and pain and feelings I shove down seep out in physical ways. Funny how, as a child, I was always getting sick. :roll:
The more you learn about worry and stress the more you learn about the adverse effects on our health. That's why in the end it's often not an option anymore to detach emotionally from certain people! It becomes essential if we are to survive. I remember way back when you first posted we talked about the effects on your health then. You've got to get yourself strong and watch the foods you eat, and yeah, get your sleep. Sleep and eating properly are usually the first to suffer when we're stressed. Funny how stress is signalled to us first by our vitals, huh.
Woops, can't finish at the moment, just got interrupted. Damn.
oops yes I can, they've gone away now :D
Still, I can’t help thinking that all this trouble with mom has been given to me as a gift (is that too self-centered?). A gift meant to help me understand what happened when I was little and helpless so that I can finally cut myself loose and kick out the demons. And that’s why I’m trying so hard to take full advantage of this gift while it’s here. Learn from it while I still can.
Don't ya hate common old cliche's, but the reason they become cliche's is that they are huge truths or paradigms packaged in very neat short sentences. But now on reading this I think of "pressure makes diamonds".
I don't think it's too self-centred, what you said. Because this place here seems to be the appropriate place to be self-centred. Otherwise we're just here being bums on seats, not getting anywhere or dealing with the issues that bought us here, so that we can solve our problems, and hopefully go back out into the big wide real world a bit healthier and more balanced each time. I sure know I didn't come here not to focus on my messed up self, and I have to be self-centred here to do that. :wink: So come on everybody, let's sit here and talk about me for a while. hahahahahahahahahaha.
It’s like Mom’s been bitten by this really poisonous snake, and I’ve been trying so hard to suck the poison out of the wound so she won’t die. Trouble is, there’s too much poison and it’s making me sick, and the poison has already gone into her bloodstream. She needs a doctor, but she’s gotten used to the poison in her system and she won’t go to the hospital. She doesn’t think it’s that big of a deal. So what do I do? Sit here and watch her die? It’s all I can do, and it sucks. :cry: :cry:
Damn, another interruption and I was just warming up, and I'm still back in, 'I don't think I want to dance anymore' thread, trying to get that little fish back on the line. But briefly, I see how this can make you sick if you let it inside you. I've read about the effect of stress and abuse on the brain of children. Abused children. It's really quite scary. I know I have some of the effects, particularly in the memory and learning region. Also I've had to rectify some stomach problems. Gotta go, I'll be back asap.
((((HIG))))
CG
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CG is busy so I might get a word in….
she’s gotten used to the poison in her system and she won’t go to the hospital. She doesn’t think it’s that big of a deal. So what do I do? Sit here and watch her die? It’s all I can do, and it sucks.
And look there’s Wildflower watching her mother die. Wildflower is so sad, feels so much pain, what can I do? Can I help WF? Or do I have to watch her from a distance and feel upset for her but cannot go and say “stop it, look, you’re dying too if you sit and watch your mother die”?
Hey Wildflower! There’s more to life! Come over here and join my picnic! Maybe if your mother sees you having fun with me, maybe we’ll get her curious about the life that’s out here? Maybe not, but I can’t just sit and watch you sitting and watching…and if you can’t join me WF? Oh that would make me sad…but I guess someone has to break the chain, and it may as well be me. I won't watch you watching your mother. I'll look away, towards life, I guess.
{Edit: CG you just bought the 4 agreements to the top again and I tell you every time I see them I go into panic: what have I done? Ha ha - I can't get the hang of 'nothing anyone does is because of you': I have the original sin, it's gotta be me that's been the bad girl! Sounds very N too. I'm getting a huge deja vu about all this....anyway, er, hope you didn't mind me butt-ski-ing in here? I got this picture of a big green field with WF sitting in it, watching her mom, then there's me watching her and then a long line of women all sitting but not looking at each other, one looking to another, to another, get the image? And thinking about my ending above, I guess an alternative is to go up to her and stare her in the eyes? Put myself in her line of vision? What would you do in the picture?}
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Hi Portia,
Just a quickie for now. In looking over my last post on this thread, I realized how many sad faces there were, and it’s true…sad stuff. But I felt/feel calm and quiet. Sad about mom. Sad that I’m gonna have to throw in the towel. But you know what?
Hey Wildflower! There’s more to life! Come over here and join my picnic!
I’m coming – and I’d love to join your picnic!! :D :D Just kinda letting out a few last sighs I guess, but I’m breaking this chain! :!: That was an amazing image of a line of women all looking at each other from a distance but not really looking at each other. So dead-on when you think about generations of women trying to break free.
Maybe if your mother sees you having fun with me, maybe we’ll get her curious about the life that’s out here?
I so hadn’t thought of it that way, so thanks a million!! :D :D Maybe I can slip invitations under her door every now and then. No hopes of reply, but if she feels like coming out, the more power to her. And maybe a few pictures from the big world outside. Have you ever seen Amelie? I’m thinking of the gnome pictures she sent to her dad. :D :D
I’m gonna answer your question from the other thread and then it’s back to the grindstone for me. :roll:
Be back later to talk to you and CG. :D
(((((big hugs)))))
Wildflower
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Just thought I'd stretch my limbs a little, take a little wander around. Hey - aren't you guys doing great things here!!! I should think RG is feeling like a hig in clover seeing all this great work being done and new pastures being found, new perspectives. Some beautiful things up there.
The gift, yes - maybe from a higher power, but maybe from the parent - even if they didn't realise what they were doing, what the gift was, even if they weren't capable of wrapping it up and actually handing it over. Doesn't matter. It's their gift to you. All that sobbing, too - it's so healthy!!! Getting rid of all the stuff that's been lying in wait to create health havoc. Exhausting tho.
And isn't that brilliant, where you got to feeling OK to 'be', OK to just exist.. :idea: as a wildflower in/on the grass!! :D
That’s what I’ve been trying to do for so long, but I can’t do it anymore.
Amen to that!
Makes note to self : R can't do it any more either!! And that seems OK. I'll leave her to live as much or as little life as she wants and put MY values up on a board somewhere and every time HER values pop up into my field of vision, I'll just remember my own (eg I wouldn't expect to drag anyone else into my messes and I most definitely wouldn't want my child in there with me, no sirree!! Also, the helping hand is not there to be bitten. And a few others on similar lines.)
WF : Watching her??
I'm not going to watch mine die - that makes me her prisoner and a victim and it stops me living my life (Ha! I finally got that one under my belt then!). I'm not sure if completely ignoring her is an option tho I'm sure in healthy families it must be (but healthy families probably wouldn't have to deal with that issue!)...
Portia : Not watching her? What's the alternative?
OK - what about if we all look at (turn and smile at) each other instead of our mothers!!! Each from our own corners ('work to do, lives to live'). I dunno - I'm getting an image of some kind of circle dance, clasping hands, turning, crossing, turning again. Hi again! Perhaps that's what we're doing already...
Portia :!: (emoticon for 'the spotlight just zeroed in on you'! :lol:) Did you see what you wrote :shock: :D (Just expressing a great wow of delight here!)
I guess an alternative is to go up to her and stare her in the eyes? Put myself in her line of vision?
Did you 'get it' when you wrote it???
Did you wonder why you would want to do that - or did you know why???
CG : I've received so much from you - support, ideas, humour. And every time I try to reach you, I seem to miss, just minutely, but I miss. :?: Maybe it's just me thinking I missed or feeling my thoughts just aren't good enough. You make the worst moments seem so light-hearted, a great yarn. If I didn't know (you) better, I'd say it was a gift, too. But it's a gift that keeps so much hidden away. You save other people from experiencing your pain, don't you. Why is that? Did you protect your mom from your pain??? :lol: I could listen to you all day. But I'm not sure I should otherwise I'll just be a passenger. Mind you, if you're the driver, I'm not quite sure what's left!! :wink: :lol: Yeah, well. I probably just 'missed' again - by a mile! <Rueful smile>
R
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PS Hi Wildflower - I just noticed you posted while I was thinking and writing. Perhaps my post has become irrelevant and inconsequential. I 'hate it' when that happens. 'Feelings' pah - they make life sooo difficult. But I won't be sad, mad or bad (or embarrassed). I'll just try to 'let it be'.
Oh, botherate - it's my 'lot' to watch everyone else from a distance...more 'work'.
R
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Hi Rosencrantz,
Glad you wandered over. :D Me, I’m just sitting here in the fields Portia made, looking up at the sky. Wanna have a sit? Regain our strengths - facing each other? I think I’m just as wiped out as you are!
And isn't that brilliant, where you got to feeling OK to 'be', OK to just exist.. as a wildflower in/on the grass!!
That was such a great observation! I didn’t see it when I wrote, but how funny is that? I’m living up to my online name, huh?
Makes note to self : R can't do it any more either!! And that seems OK. I'll leave her to live as much or as little life as she wants and put MY values up on a board somewhere and every time HER values pop up into my field of vision, I'll just remember my own.
Great!!! Wahooooooo!!! Wanna start a ‘can’t do it anymore’ club? :D :D :D
Hi Portia,
I can't get the hang of 'nothing anyone does is because of you': I have the original sin, it's gotta be me that's been the bad girl!
Me, too. Leaving that agreement for last. I have moments of remembering it’s not about me, but it’s so much easier to ask questions (don’t make assumptions) and get my words right (be impeccable). Do you think maybe that’s because we were taught that it was our fault? It was all about us when things were bad (not when things were good, of course….no, no :roll: )?
Hi CG,
The more you learn about worry and stress the more you learn about the adverse effects on our health. That's why in the end it's often not an option anymore to detach emotionally from certain people! It becomes essential if we are to survive.
That’s it, isn’t it? This is about detaching emotionally, and no, it’s not an option anymore when health becomes an issue. It’s not about saying, “See ya, hope it all works out, ma” – unless I can’t be around her and stay detached. Boy is this detaching hard, though, and I want to thank RG for putting up this board and everyone else here for allowing me to do that here - out loud.
Don't ya hate common old cliche's, but the reason they become cliche's is that they are huge truths or paradigms packaged in very neat short sentences.
Honest? I love clichés because of that. To me, they reinforce the idea that there are some things we all share as humans. When you don't understand a cliche and it's used to answer (silence) questions, that’s when clichés are annoying. You simply can’t ‘get’ a cliché until you ‘get’ all those truths or paradigms packed into them. Reminds me of your teacher stories (do you think she’s still wearing those outfits?).
Because this place here seems to be the appropriate place to be self-centred. Otherwise we're just here being bums on seats, not getting anywhere or dealing with the issues that bought us here, so that we can solve our problems, and hopefully go back out into the big wide real world a bit healthier and more balanced each time. I sure know I didn't come here not to focus on my messed up self, and I have to be self-centred here to do that. So come on everybody, let's sit here and talk about me for a while. hahahahahahahahahaha.
I’m sittiin’….go ahead :D :D :D.
(((((three big HIGS for three big voices)))))
Wildflower
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Sure, I'm 'in' for the picnic - please! Are we still going fishin? I've got my fishing net here for catching sticklebacks and a jamjar to put them in. Shall I bring the wine? I've got an amazing white Zinfandel that's actually pink! And it's already plenty cold enough to drink right now. And look, I've been stocking up - a bottle EACH!!! It's just sooo drinkable!
Ratty and Mole and Badger and Otter just messing along the river.
Up tails all!
R
PS Does Wind in the Willows cross cultures???
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HI guys, I've got my pole out and nearly ready to join ya'.
Peekin' in gettin' a break from too much work I've let pile up. Nearly finished thank goodness, only a few more days to go. Promised myself I would finish the backlog before I went back to indulging myself here. My self-control is being challeneged though. I find myself dying to peek in.
Had friends over for a huge dinner a ouple of nights ago, 'cause I felt like cookin' up a storm. It was magnifico'. But halfway through the cat ran away, when one of the guests left the door open. Had to keep a brave face throughout the dinner, and my poor kids were so distressed. After everyone left I printed off 20 huge posters offering a reward and printed a whole bunch of handouts. Next morning, early, we door knocked every house for 3 blocks, with these handouts. I didn't have a photo. Finished all that, went home, burnt a candle for Tom, knowing he would have had the scariest night of his life, and prayed to the cat spirits to protect him, dog spirits to leave him alone, car spirits to miss him (images of roadkill loomed large in my brain cause he's never been outside before). Then 2o hours later we hear meow outside the bathroom window. We all flew to the back door and opened it and he flew inside.
I think he was off shaggin' cause he's been howling at the back door ever since he got home. He doesn't realise we had his 'currency' removed, although he's still got the purse they came in.
So I'm back!!!! Sorry I've missed a bit, and will catch up. I had to post though because I know if it were one of you guys, Wildflower, Rosencrantz or Portia, I'd probably be racked with anxiety and guilt, immediately going to "Oh, I hope it wasn't something I said". So this post is really to say if anyone has gone there, the answer is "No, absolutely not". And if you haven't gone there, good, it's just my inflated N ego assuming a level of importance I really don't have. DAMN and double damn. !!!!!!!!!! :D HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D
It's just been a really hectic time, alone doing yukky isolated boolwork, and to top it off I've found a couple of funny transcations on an Amex statement, and I've discoverd I've got a couple of big important receipts missing, blaah blaah blaah blaaah blaah!!!! That's what happens when you let it go, and don't keep on top of it though.
So, anyway, I'm nearly there, and I'll be back :D .
CG
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And if you haven't gone there, good, it's just my inflated N ego assuming a level of importance I really don't have. DAMN and double damn. !!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Love it! And guess how I felt, when I slunk over here to say 'sorry not contributing but I'll be back' and then LATER discovered I'd written right after you've put out your ad!! Groan - I felt soooo stoopid. What if they thought....oh, I sound so self-important...etc.
But I learnt summat!
Intention is all!!!!!
I may often feel frightened about something I've written, or teeter on the brink of shame, but it's how you guys respond that makes me feel OK.
Now, that's not right (in my mind) to depend so much on how others perceive me as to whether or not I feel OK about myself.
So the word integrity pops into my mind. If I INTEND something then that's what matters most. And it doesn't matter how someone else takes it or the context I end up in.
The context changes all the time here on this forum - posts get added here, there, everywhere - but my intention and the context in which I INTENDED my post to arrive is 'here' inside me at the time I 'intended' it. And that doesn't change.
I guess it's linked to that 'I define me and not somebody else's distorted lens'. Somebody else's lens may be distorted (like my mother) and that's a mental health issue!! But other people's lenses may have been 'distorted' (ie changed, not really 'distorted' like my mother) by circumstances, different priorities, different VALUES!, different information that I don't have access to, and thus they may misunderstand my intention.
But I don't have to be paranoid about it!!!!!!!
If they tell me what they think then I get a chance to 'put them right', let them know what my intention was. Healthy, mature people will accept the different perspective, different CONTEXT. Others may not be able to. But I can still be strong in my INTENTION!!! (Mother, this is where youre mental health issue had damaged me!)
If they don't tell me what they think but start to act funny about it or towards me, then I can still be strong in my INTENTION and I can find some way of finding out what they are thinking or knowing that has led them to 'act funny'.
You know, I think I did used to do that but people would act even more funny towards me and I'd end up so distressed inside I just couldn't 'cope'. But now I know about the distorted lens, I won't (?) get that kind of distress and I'll be able to understand that they are feeling 'under the microscope' and trying to get me away from them.
I have been so stoopid to think that the rest of the world understands themselves and WANTS to talk to me about what's really 'going on' underneath. Really, really stoopid.
Thanks to you guys for talking to me!!!!!
R
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Good day to you Lady Muskateers! R, just picked up your ref to:
Portia (emoticon for 'the spotlight just zeroed in on you'! ) Did you see what you wrote (Just expressing a great wow of delight here!)
Quote: I guess an alternative is to go up to her and stare her in the eyes? Put myself in her line of vision?
Did you 'get it' when you wrote it???
Did you wonder why you would want to do that - or did you know why???
Ummmm! I was going to get in Wildflower's line of vision and stare in her eyes...is that what you thought I meant?
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Hi CG,
Poor Tom!! :shock: I’m so glad he found his way back home (after his oat sowing adventures). Hmmm. Maybe not poor Tom. :lol: Poor kids!! In any case, whew! :D
Good luck getting through those mounds o’ paperwork. :D
Hi R,
I may often feel frightened about something I've written, or teeter on the brink of shame, but it's how you guys respond that makes me feel OK.
Now, that's not right (in my mind) to depend so much on how others perceive me as to whether or not I feel OK about myself.
So the word integrity pops into my mind. If I INTEND something then that's what matters most. And it doesn't matter how someone else takes it or the context I end up in.
This reminds me of an issue I’ve been struggling to get under my belt for a little while. Maybe it’s related to what you’re saying? Not sure.
It’s so true that you can’t control how others will interpret your writings, so yes, yes, yes, it’s important to be able feel OK about your actions. Sometimes it’s a matter of having a chance to explain yourself if someone misunderstands you, but sometimes it’s a matter of doing things that make you feel comfortable.
I used to do many things that made me feel uncomfortable (bad habits I’d gotten into, ways of interacting with my parent extending out into the rest of the world), but I’ve learned/am learning to identify those actions so that I can have a little more control over how a situation will make me feel. This allows me to say, “Well, I did that because that’s who I am and I was being the best person I could be in that situation. If I goofed, I know that I’ll be able to honestly say that I did the best I could – and then apologize. And learn.” Whap. Anxiety gone. I can make mistakes, but it helps if I don’t walk into things that immediately make me uncomfortable. Like losing my patience at the office, or being late, or….
Part being impeccable, part being your best. :D :D
And yes, we read Wind and the Willows over here in the US. It happens that I didn’t (I was busy reading everything I could get my hands on by Madeleine L’Engle), but I intend to read it some day. :D :D
Hi Portia,
In terms of rescuing this mother-watcher, I probably would have snapped out of it eventually, but you reminded me that in watching her, I was risking getting sick again instead of healing. I was planning to allow myself to grieve a little bit over ‘losing’ her, but I can do that elsewhere - in life. So thanks for pointing that out. I heard and saw you. :D :D
Off to work….
Wildflower
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Ah, Wildflower, I should clear up my bad communication immediately and say when I said a “Wildflower job” I didn’t mean you in reality, I meant you in your/my story, you as ..er...indicative of all those women. Ack, I didn’t mean you as such and I didn’t mean to point it out…mind you, if it did help in any way, that’s okay, so, good. Tricky, this language thing.
As for grieving, well, your post elsewhere about talking to yourself as child, it reminded me of the ‘Healing the child within’ book which I found enormously helpful – and illuminating, about how good a childhood can be! (I know that babies and kids need touch and hugs etc but when you go down his list of what you missed…it can be excruciating . But he does instruct on how to heal yourself. Still trying to here! And grieving, grieving for what you didn’t have, couldn’t have….it’s all in there. Great book (though a sick-making cover picture). You’ve probably read it and done it to death! Just gabbling on before I go out into that big bad world where other people reside…P
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Hi Portia - I was thinking back to the 'little ladybird jumping up to be seen/heard, trying to get into the line of vision' and then hearing you offering the alternative of 'looking her straight in the eye'. That was the 'wow'. You were right in her line of vision - the ladybird had GONE! :shock: :lol:
I had some other thoughts then thought...turn the spotlight off, willya!!! :wink:
So CG is finding good-hearted people, and you are finding people who are worth looking straight in the eye...
So who am I finding??? Me, inside. Like you said! And I guess I'll find people who can tolerate 'me'!!! Not the intellectual, intelligent, organised, honest, strong, certain, questioning me. But the easily confused, uncertain, fragile, shy, wondering me. Or both! It must be 'confusing' for other people to see both exist side by side!!! I don't feel quite so 'humiliated' at the thought of 'this' me existing, being seen, any more. "Come on dear, it's safe to come out now!!!" (Are you sure??!)
Dear Wildflower - Do you mind me bringing something over from the other thread??? Dear Wildflower. If I say there's nothing you could say that could hurt me, does it mean to you that I'm not listening? I'm listening.
Caught red handed. Talk about reading me like a book. But I’ve got to work on that, don’t I? That and worrying all the time about hurting people. So it’s my issue and it’s been duly noted to self. No worries. But thanks so much for posting that.
But (uncomfortable feeling/admission here) I wasn't really listening, was I?! I was 'simply' being aware that I wasn't!! But I AM now and I finally (I think) figured out what it is you do for me not to listen/hear!!
You get me (anyone?) concentrating on whether I feel hurt/damaged instead of concentrating on WHAT YOU SAID! And as my attention flickers over your words, I register that I don't feel hurt and so I respond to THAT question - but in the process of doing that, i'm ignoring all the words of wisdom and support you offer!!! Can you see how that works?? Can you see how to make it different so you DO get heard better?? Do you mind me writing this to you????!!!!? I'm not sure I should...but then I'm not sure about a lot of things these days...
I think I need to find better ways of integrating the 'shy, uncertain' me before I drive everyone crazy!!! :idea: Aaagh - I've just had a :idea: and I can't stop. See you guys later...
Time to cook 'supper'...
TTFN
R
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Hey R,
You get me (anyone?) concentrating on whether I feel hurt/damaged instead of concentrating on WHAT YOU SAID! And as my attention flickers over your words, I register that I don't feel hurt and so I respond to THAT question - but in the process of doing that, i'm ignoring all the words of wisdom and support you offer!!! Can you see how that works?? Can you see how to make it different so you DO get heard better??
Honest? I don't know what I'm doing to make myself hard to hear. I wasn't aware that I was making myself hard to hear. Is that what you're telling me? Something I'm doing wrong?
Wildflower
{EDIT: P.S. - I couldn't stop worrying about hurting people until I understood why I felt that way in the first place, right? No matter how people tried to tell me I wasn't, I still kept hearing this voice that told me I was a monster and hurt people - no matter how hard I tried not to. Well, I've gotten to the bottom of that, and I think it'll be easier for me going forward, but it wasn't something I could just stop doing, you know what I mean?}
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Hi Portia,
Tricky, this language thing.
No kidding! Especially when we're talking in metaphors and stories and stuff. That's how I read your comments, though - as an extension of the imagery we were using. And it was helpful to me. Continuing the imagery, that is. Going with the image of mom being poisoned and me watching her, and people watching me watch her...symbolic of all the other people who've gotten hooked in merely by watching. So, I mean it. It was helpful, and no offense taken. :D
I haven't read Healing the Child Within but I will now. Next to a box of tissues, of course. I've actually been looking for some readable texts on child development so that I can have a better understanding of what was normal at various ages. As in, was it normal to think x, y, z at that age? Or was that a sign of something bad going on? Or was that a healthy sign of me rejecting something bad? Not that I buy that everyone has the same experiences growing up - but boy would it be useful to have a yardstick. :wink:
Wildflower
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No, not 'wrong'! But hey -I'm probably getting too complicated as usual. If what I say has no meaning, isn't 'speaking' to you - then it's me that's 'wrong' - no probs!!! :-)
R
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No, not 'wrong'! But hey -I'm probably getting too complicated as usual. If what I say has no meaning, isn't 'speaking' to you - then it's me that's 'wrong' - no probs!!!
Hmmm. Well, I have to admit I was a bit miffed, R, so I guess I got defensive for a minute there, because this is how your comments came across to me: You weren't listening to me after all, but it was really my fault. If I were better at communicating, you would have listened to me, but I'm not, so you didn't. That's what I heard, and my prickly defenses came up online. Does that make sense? :?
So no, you're not being too complicated. I'm just not sure I'm hearing you correctly.
Thing is, if there's something I'm doing that gets in the way of people understanding/listening to me, I want to know about it. And if there's something I can do to change it, I'll do my best, as always. I may not be able to change immediately, though. Even if I can intellectually understand what's going on, you know what I mean?
Wildflower
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Hello Dear Wildflower. I know you'll know I meant no harm. And it really isn't anything to feel badly about at all. Quite the opposite. I think I mean you shield your MEANING behind words that protect other people from the HARM of your meaning. So people hear you are protecting them but don't necessarily pay attention to the meaning/content of your message as a result.
Here I'll try another way to say it :
"If I say that nothing you could say can harm me, does it mean to you that I'm not listening" seemed to be an accurate statement.
It occurred to me that, if i'm concentrating on you saying to me "I hope this doesn't hurt you" then I'm not listening to the main CONTENT of what you're saying, only the 'last thing you said' which is about 'not hurting'. So I hear you are 'not hurting me' but I'm not sure I've really been listening to the rest of what you are saying AS A RESULT.
Just as I (me, R) often hide my meaning by adding a post to/about someone else after I've written something very meaningful about myself!!! :lol: (yes, I 'see' me do this, too!! Too clearly sometimes!!!) so it just occurred to me that you hide your 'meaningful content' behind a spoken wish to prioritise 'not hurting'.
In my case, I suspect i'm hiding in order not to experience that terror : rejection!!! :lol: I see myself doing these things and get very exasperated with myself. I seem to see more than I can actually control. The only option is to laugh at myself in order to 'be on my own side' in growing.
But I'm really, really sorry if I'm still hitting a raw nerve. I think that the way you heard me was not the meaning I had intended. But is it time for me to put that spade to rest again, and stop digging???! I must be half way to Australia by now!!! :wink:
Hugs
R
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When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!
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I haven't read Healing the Child Within but I will now. Next to a box of tissues, of course. I've actually been looking for some readable texts on child development so that I can have a better understanding of what was normal at various ages. As in, was it normal to think x, y, z at that age? Or was that a sign of something bad going on? Or was that a healthy sign of me rejecting something bad? Not that I buy that everyone has the same experiences growing up - but boy would it be useful to have a yardstick. :wink:
Wildflower
or was that a healthy sign of me rejecting something bad????????????????
What an interesting thought?????????????
(((HIG)))
CG
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Hi Wildflower, Rosenrantz, Portia.
Well aren't I naughty posting. Someone spank me pleeease!!!!
oh, harder, harder!!
Gosh you guys are going into some deep stuff here. How ya' feein' Wildflower?? ((HIG)) How ya feelin' Rosencrantz?? ((HIG)) How ya feelin' Portia?? ((HIG)) You were so cool being so honest about your first thought, emotions, reactions and feelings.
That was such an interesting self-observation Rosencrantz about your tension/attention relieving posts that you use to draw-fire or as a distraction. It's very interesting, because I often use humour sort of the same way, sort of :?: I make some comment, I expose something very deep and personal about myself, and then out of the blue it's followed by a totally hilarious joke and that's how I get myself "off the hook" or out of further analysis. :D
And Wildflower, if you hadn't said you were miffed (is that Latin for Pissed-Off) over Rosencrantz's comment I probably would have missed it all on first read. I'm so glad you communicated you were, that is so fair and just of you. :D :D and it gives the other a chance to clear up any misunderstanding, or explain, or reframe or even apologise if necessary. :D :D Very adult stuff happenin' here.
I wish I was like that a lot more in the world, instead of imploding all over the show. Then, at other times I feel like that big fat guy in the dining room scene who overeats in Monthy Python's 'Meaning of Life". I get so full of other people's, mine, and life's stuff, then I explode. :roll: :roll: :roll:
(sigh)
Gotta go, I'll be back
(((HIG)))
CG
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Hi R,
Ah. I think I get it. Hmmm. I suppose I could leave it at that, but I really want to be heard this time, okay? :D Otherwise, I’m afraid this will either simmer down below or crop up again and again, and I don’t want either of those because I really value you, R.
I know you'll know I meant no harm.
Absolutely. No question in my mind about that. Still need to say this, okay?
Dear Wildflower. If I say there's nothing you could say that could hurt me, does it mean to you that I'm not listening? I'm listening.
Caught red handed. Talk about reading me like a book. But I’ve got to work on that, don’t I? That and worrying all the time about hurting people. So it’s my issue and it’s been duly noted to self. No worries. But thanks so much for posting that.
What I was trying to say to you here was don’t worry about my issues (because you had enough of your own to deal with). I’m on it. Thanks for acknowledging that I probably felt ignored (I did, but I’m okay with it), but that’s my deal (I felt ignored as a child and I’m sensitive to it now but I’m learning not to be). Don’t worry about it (please). Too subtle, hunh? :roll: Okay, add that to my list of issues. :lol: Oh, and that's what I look like when I'm deflecting :wink: .
But I think I see now why you’d want to bring this back up (big open issue left unanswered :?: ).
Actually, though, I think (emphasis on ‘think’) I’ve already conquered the bit about obsessing over whether I hurt people, because I finally understand WHY I felt that way (that’s what all that fuss was about a week ago Friday :roll: :wink: ). So I doubt I’ll be saying that again – at least, not with those intentions. :D
Can I tell you a story? My boss has been trying to get me to delegate more work over the past couple of years. It’s been a bit of a learning experience (understatement :roll: ), and even something as simple as this has forced me to address why it may be so difficult for me to let others help out (answer: because I couldn’t trust anyone else to be there for me growing up, and when I did, it was a big mistake). But I’ve addressed those fears, and I’ve learned to delegate – and I’ve learned a lot of other things along the way. So here I am, feeling good about myself and about how much effort I’ve put into learning to trust others when my boss comes up and says, "You need to learn to delegate." :shock: :roll:
The truth is, I have been doing a really good job. He just reacted to the fact that I was still holding on to one area of the project. I was holding onto it because it was my creation - and it was extremely complicated. I was waiting for the other team members to catch up by delegating out other pieces - and they even admitted to being intimidated by this piece. I had every intention of delegating this piece out when it was time, but when my boss said that to me, I forgot all my plans and intentions and I felt like all the hard work I’d done had either gone unnoticed – or I hadn’t done a good job after all. All this effort I’d put in? Nada. No good. Worthless. :(
I bet most people wouldn’t have reacted the way I did (by immediately doubting myself), but I think that’s a normal reaction for ACONs who have been taught their reality, well, isn’t real. :wink:
Just as I (me, R) often hide my meaning by adding a post to/about someone else after I've written something very meaningful about myself!!! (yes, I 'see' me do this, too!! Too clearly sometimes!!!) so it just occurred to me that you hide your 'meaningful content' behind a spoken wish to prioritise 'not hurting'.
I have noticed that you often deflect analysis of your own issues by addressing the issues of others, and that’s okay. :) I haven’t said anything before because I figured you either knew and were working on it, or when you were more comfortable with being vulnerable, it would go away on its own. In short, I didn’t see any point in … pointing it out to you. :wink: Besides, I still listened to what you said when the spotlight came back to me because often these moments have been filled with some dead-on observations. :D Just as CG's deflections result in some hilarious stories (that cause hiccups, btw :lol: ). But this time, R, you kinda hit a big raw nerve, and I felt much the way I did after my boss told me I needed to learn to delegate.
I finally (I think) figured out what it is you do for me not to listen/hear!!
You get me (anyone?) concentrating on whether I feel hurt/damaged instead of concentrating on WHAT YOU SAID! And as my attention flickers over your words, I register that I don't feel hurt and so I respond to THAT question - but in the process of doing that, i'm ignoring all the words of wisdom and support you offer!!! Can you see how that works?? Can you see how to make it different so you DO get heard better??
I couldn’t hear ‘words of wisdom and support you offer’ (but thank you for that). All I could hear was :
“what you do for me not to listen … “
“You get me (anyone?) concentrating on whether I feel hurt/damaged”
“Can you see how that works??”
“Can you see how to make it different so you DO get heard better??”
And all I could think was, gosh, is everyone ignoring me? :shock: I thought it was just a communication thing between me and R, but now I want to go back and read all my posts to find out if I’ve been ignored. Have I been doing this to my parents and that’s why they ignore me? After all this time, it’s really all my fault??? :shock: :shock: :shock: And I thought I had a handle on this “hurting people” thing, but if R’s bringing it up again and asking me whether or not I understand how to change the way I communicate – maybe I still don’t get it??? :shock:
But I do get it. And while I know I may backslide from time to time, I hope it won’t be much of an issue in the future.
I think I mean you shield your MEANING behind words that protect other people from the HARM of your meaning.
Quite aside from my own issues about worrying how I hurt people, I feel very strongly that I should be careful with people here on this board. They’ve been shoved into boxes and beaten up by the needs of others. I don’t want my needs to be added to their lists, and I don’t want to push anyone any farther into their boxes. Or even into new boxes.
Besides, for those I haven’t had a chance to get to know (and even those I have), I don’t know where they are in their process of healing. I don’t know what their triggers are. I don’t know how long they’ve been working on an issue (and are frustrated by it). I don’t know if what I have to say was something they figured out a million years ago. And I don’t even know if I understand enough to be able to understand them - because I’ve got my very own set of blinders 8) . So I’m careful. And - I hope - respectful.
So I’m not trying to hide something harmful behind words of comfort. I really, truly, simply want to be supportive in any way I can – whenever I can. Even if that means stepping away sometimes. That’s just who I am (even took a while to recover that bit), and I’m proud of it. I over-tip at restaurants and in cabs for similar reasons (and thankfully, this tipping habit has rubbed off on my friends :D – when they’re with me at any rate :wink: ). Sometimes I can’t be supportive, though, because I’m struggling with my own stuff or because I need to go back out into the real world and take care of my, er, life :wink: . Which is yet another reason why this board rocks: so many other really supportive people on this board. :D
So, I’m crossing my fingers (big time) and hoping that you understand that I’m telling you all this so that we can be on the same page. And that being on the same page with you is important to me.
(((hugs)))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower.
“You need to learn to delegate” – oh yeah, was a true biggie for me at work. But if your boss isn’t seeing you progressing (or doesn’t bother to ask you or look at the facts) then it’s obviously his problem. Projection happens so much at work, especially in the annual appraisal where you get criticised for doing something you know you don’t do, but you know your boss does (and his boss criticizes him for doing it). Sick. Turn it back if you can, provide the proof and then tell him you’ll manage your own work, if that’s okay.
And all I could think was, gosh, is everyone ignoring me? I thought it was just a communication thing between me and R, but now I want to go back and read all my posts to find out if I’ve been ignored. Have I been doing this to my parents and that’s why they ignore me? After all this time, it’s really all my fault??? And I thought I had a handle on this “hurting people” thing, but if R’s bringing it up again and asking me whether or not I understand how to change the way I communicate – maybe I still don’t get it???
Okay my heart’s lurching at this point (empathy?) and even though you say you’re okay with it now, I’d like to validate from my perspective: How do I hear you communicating? Clearly, warmly, far less provocatively than me, with a human kindness that I lack (too interested in the ‘truth’, I will trample on raw nerves). And you are very aware of not upsetting other people! But hey, you look like you can stick up for yourself too. I admire that.
Yep, maybe it’s an ACON thing, maybe it’s down to style of writing, but that’s what I see.
I read you as intending good. That’s what I see so far – you could surprise me, but I will trust what I see and feel until I see and feel otherwise. Hope that’s reasonable. P
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Hi R.
Hi Portia - I was thinking back to the 'little ladybird jumping up to be seen/heard, trying to get into the line of vision' and then hearing you offering the alternative of 'looking her straight in the eye'. That was the 'wow'. You were right in her line of vision - the ladybird had GONE!
I had some other thoughts then thought...turn the spotlight off, willya!!!
You’re right, Ladybird has gone. But shine your light on me any time, I don’t mind. And I’m not deflecting from Wildflower above! I just cannot stand a secret, or hinted at thoughts, so go on, tell me, for goodness sake, don’t keep me in suspenders. What were your thoughts? Train your beam this way if you want to – it ain’t often someone offers me unasked for thoughts and I crave feedback, especially the helpful, critical kind (ego-soothing/pumping feed not required). Whenever, and if you still want to. Curiously, P
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I just cannot stand a secret, or hinted at thoughts, so go on, tell me, for goodness sake, don’t keep me in suspenders. What were your thoughts? Train your beam this way if you want to – it ain’t often someone offers me unasked for thoughts and I crave feedback, especially the helpful, critical kind (ego-soothing/pumping feed not required). Whenever, and if you still want to. Curiously, P
Yeah, go Rosencrantz, go on. She's beggin' for it, you little masochist you, Portia, oh darling, and suspenders too. :) How did you know, I'm soooo embarrassed, you naughty girl. I always wondered why I liked you so much.
No, me first, get out of here, I was first, I'm next for the thumb-screws.
Portia's said she's up for it, R, so I'll bring the popcorn and cheer on from the sidelines, like a roman cheering for the lion against the christian. I always felt for the poor old lion actually. Working under all that pressure. Guffaw Guffaw, snort snort, hee-haw, Oh my gosh, I went inter-species there for a mo!! What does that say, I'm a dumb jackasss. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.HIC-UP.
No seriously now girls, can I watch, pleeeeeeeeeeease. I won't butt in or make comment, I promise 8) (lying emoticon)
((((HIG x 2))))
CG
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PS
How the hell can I get any work done while you girls keep finding really cool things to get into. Hey Wildflower, whatchadoin' ? :D
CG
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All I can say is 'I didn't mean any of that'!! And I'm feeling sick with fear right now. I'm thinking to myself 'I said one little thing' and I've been here before and I'm struggling not to cry. Back, zap, to childhood again. And I feel people are having to protect you against me and I don't understand why. And then I'm feeling everyone is going to believe I've been horrible to you, if they see other people needing to protect you (against me).
I'm not seeking for anyone to change anything or rescue me or point out the reality. I'm just saying how I 'feel'.
So I'll come back to adulthood and say as simply as I can : I didn't say anything that was intended to hit a nerve or make you angry or defensive. Sometimes I say this kind of thing and people are happy and feel I've been helpful. Sometimes they aren't! Sometimes they can't see what I meant. And sometimes I'm just plain wrong!!! But you know I go straight for the heart of things and I can't know it is about to hit a nerve until it happens!!!
What I said somehow unblocked a whole load of feelings but I'm beginning to learn this is not a good time to try to explore it without a parachute and they're out of stock at the parachute shop at the moment. :wink:
But let me try to shake off my fears and upset and quivering back (yes, my back is quivering and I don't know why) and return here as close to 'strong, insightful R' as I can. She's useful and truthful and honest.
And if we've begun to be friends, then I won't leave you without a darned good try to help you see my perspective. I've been where you are, and (I think) I'm sharing from slightly higher up the mountain. Want a hand up??
But I'm talking in general, not applying every last jot to your experience and your reality. I'm relating my experience to yours.
What I 'hear' in your story about work, which is the same as what I 'hear' in response to my post is that you heard a criticism when there wasn't one in the 'intention'. And, because it coincidentally didn't happen to mention all the growth and progress and good things you'd done, you felt that it denied them. But it didn't. It just didn't happen to mention them. Wherever you are on the stepping stones to professional or personal growth, there'll always be another one ahead and everyday people in everyday life will expect you to have the resilience to move on without considering childhood needs.
It is the most painful thing to have to get to grips with. And it's part of the reason why I'll never, ever work for anyone else again!!!!!!!!! Because, so far, I haven't developed that resilience. Crushed again, so easily crushed, wiped out completely, devastated, finished, gone, lost and probably forgotten. And humiliated by my own reaction and feelings. But it's the 'being crushed' that I need to work on - my boss isn't a bad lot cos he wasn't psychic enough to protect my tender feelings, much as I might like him to!!! (Now my therapist was another kettle of fish altogether and I SHOULD have expected better from him!!)
Anyway, I'm too proud! I could have stayed in 'tendersville' becoming a teacher or counsellor or some other form of nanny. I escaped into the big bad world precisely in order to 'get the rough edges knocked off me'. And, although I care, I also believe it would be arrogant of me to hold back on the truth as I see it. I'm just not quite resilient enough to carry it off without pain and guilt and shame - because I'm still the child thinking that the truth just destroyed my mother.
But Wildflower, look, I'm on a sunny ledge here, half way up the mountain. Come and join me do.
Work is like family. I spent two years studying a higher degree about all this and was astounded at what I discovered. Look - managers are parents. Except they're not!!! We want from them the care we never got from our parents. The people who work for us are our parents, too. Except they think WE are THEIR parents. It's a wonder any work ever gets done. And colleagues are siblings. As an 'only one' I could never understand the relationships people had, the backbiting and in-fighting. I was such a pushover, so bewildered but then relieved when I finally started to realise what 'politics' was all about!!!
True growth is when it doesn't matter a fig if the other person is an N or not! Because we are who we are and nobody else can take that away from us. And our feelings are OURS, contained, not theirs to mess with!
But just as you are learning to let you mother stand on her own two feet (so you can become your own woman and live your own life), so you ARE already learning to delegate to your staff. But you may not need to protect either your staff, or the people here, or your mother to the extent that you think you do - even when they say they are intimidated or scared by what might be coming their way.
Delegation doesn't mean 'dumping stuff on people', it means holding their hand along the way, constant monitoring (ie enabling staff to talk to you and feel free to express what they are worried about, then ask them questions so they can find their own solution in their own way). So you can let go and not fear what will happen 'to' them or 'for' them. Yes??? Otherwise you're telling them that they are not strong enough and they'll remain dependent on you. (That's an example of good parenting, too.)
Well, I don't know how much of that applies to you, how much is old news, but it ALL applies to me and was ALL amazing NEW news once. Perhaps there's stuff in there that makes sense to you.
Perhaps I see me in contrast to what you describe and wonder why I'm not being more 'careful' about other people's tender feelings. Well, partly because I worked out a long time ago that if I do that I'm being their therapist/parent. And that's not right or healthy for anybody. I'd be making decisions on their behalf. I'd be holding the power in my own hands in some way. Partly because I know that feelings are the responsibility of their owner. And what I have more recently realised is that I can't possibly know everybody's sensitivies as I go through life at a normal pace - and I can't know any individual's particular sensitivities unless we are in a particularly close and intimate relationship. So I'd be setting myself up for failure and an impossible task or voicelessness (!) if I did otherwise. And if I fudge it, well, I'm just hiding what I really mean to save myself from rejection.
:wink: As far as I know, we're both on the same page (unless we've just filled this one up - that would be ironic! :lol: ). And I'm not going anywhere 'without you' (not off in a huff or round the bend or down in a heap) unless or until you tell me go away because you can't stand another moment of hearing me go on about myself, my thoughts, my needs, my hopes, my news, my ideas, my 'aha' moments, and hoping you'll get something out of it and discovering that, on every occasion, I'm learning too.
That's all I am. That's all I've got. That's all I mean.. We're all just as 'lost' as each other. And I haven't got the faintest idea whether there's anything 'real' about anything I say except when somebody else says 'YES'. I live for that moment of connection. It's OK if I 'miss' but I cry inside every time I do, even while keeping my distance like adults 'should'.
But there, I'm also learning that when things go wrong, I respond by opening myself up more and more and more. And that isn't always the solution, either. I'm still learning. Now I'm just going off to have an anxiety attack while you decide what to do with all this. :wink:
In sincerity,
R
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Hi R,
I'm really not trying to upset you, and I'm really sorry if you're shaking because of what I said (I'm shaking a little bit, too, okay?) If I knew of a way to express how I feel right now without bringing your world crashing down, I would. You know that, right? And if you read Portia's and Guest's responses, you'll see that they're supporting you, not protecting me, so don't worry that everyone thinks I've made you look bad. I'm the bad guy here.
But I really feel the need to express my side, okay? And I really feel as though I'm not being heard right now, but that's okay, isn't it? I'm not so childish that I think everyone has to know exactly what's going on inside my head. But I want to give it one more shot. Maybe ask you questions instead of just explaining how I feel?
So, tough question:
But Wildflower, look, I'm on a sunny ledge here, half way up the mountain. Come and join me do.
Has it occurred to you that we're all sitting here on this field - on the same level - with different 'keys'? With different areas of expertise? You're good at A, Portia's good at B, CG's good at C, I'm good at D? As of this morning, I now feel as though you think I'm just a child who doesn't get it, and the real reason you didn't listen to me is that you didn't think I had anything of value to add to our discussions (though I hear you saying that's changed - not trying to take that away from you).
And I also feel a bit frustrated because I'm telling you that I 'get' the bit about "I'm not trying to hurt you", but you're telling me I don't quite, but I will when I'm higher up the mountain?
Well, I really think that I 'get' it, R, and I'm defensive and protective about it right now. And insecure. I'm not saying "You should have known and I'm crying because you didn't." No. I'm saying, "Here. This is a big nerve. Please don't touch it until I've been allowed to grow some skin around it. Please let me have the success I've had so far. Please don't read this very paragraph and then tell me how it's symptomatic of how far I have to go. Even if that's how you feel, please keep that to yourself until I've got some skin around this issue, okay?" That's what I need right now, and I think that in this case, I really do know what's best for me.
As I've said to you before, I've never had a problem with what you say and having the spotlight on me. I'm not saying change. I'm not saying don't turn the spotlight on me. I'm saying, "Please hear me out on this one issue." And I'm saying, I like to be supportive, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, is there? I mean, by wanting to be supportive and caring, does that mean to you that I'm weak and lower down the mountain? Do you think that's necessarily the result of being damaged, instead of something I've worked very hard to 'reclaim'?
Regarding the delegation issue, yes, it's been tough, but again. I told that story because it's something I feel I've got under my belt. When my boss said that to me, my feelings of insecurity occurred within a small amount of time, but I got over myself. I asked him to explain what he meant and where I needed to do more work. And I asked him if I'd been doing what he wanted me to do. And by doing that, I was able to hear WHY he was saying that, and I was able to explain my reasoning. He still does that on occasion about other issues (yesterday in fact), but I've learned that he's probably reacting to something I did/said, so I try to get to the bottom of it before letting my feelings go spinning out of control. Or maybe after my feelings have spun out of control and I've got them settled again. :wink:
So please hear me, R. I'm trying to tell you 1) I get it, 2) being supportive is important to me, 3) I'm feeling a bit talked down to at the moment, and 4) the delegation issue isn't really something I need help with right now. I'm open to talk about it and share it, though, as long as we're sitting together on this field, on the same level, as friends.
What I'm not saying is that you're wrong and change and you're doing terrible things. No. You really are great. You have great insight at times. You really, truly are helpful. And I've learned a lot by talking with you and reading your postings. And I'll continue to do so no matter how this issue resolves (as long as you don't want me to go away, that is).
Does this make any more sense?
Wildflower
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I'm removing the content of this post because I think this was coming more from hurt feelings than from a desire to be helpful. And I'm not entirely sure I was seeing things clearly as opposed to through my own issues.
So I realize this may have been read, and I apologize to those who read it. I'm not taking it down to hide, but in an apology and in hopes that we can move on.
Wildflower
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I thought I would take some time to do what I said in an earlier post about 'integrity'. I thought I'd try to look at what happened here for me, before I came back in again so I'm writing this offline and posting before I read and get too frightened to think!! Sorry to be such a wet!!
I saw myself reply in the agony of the moment. Yes, it was 'agonising'. I replied with my heart open. As open as could be (not necessarily a mistake right here and now - but definitely a mistake generally in the world at large, and especially with my mother - Nina Evans applies) but it shows a pattern, a repeated pattern.
Now what was the point of having my heart open? So you could see what I 'intended'. Well, that should be OK but I'm not so sure that it helped you or me, truthfully, when perhaps both of us had experienced the pain of something clashing, some firework lit somewhere in our hearts, before one or both of us had touched down to our usual 'place in the sun' rather than 'place in the heat (of the moment)'.
But you see, I get an internal conflict here. I'd feel I was letting you down if I wasn't completely honest with you. It would be 'easy' to walk away. Shut down the computer. Literally walk away. Stay away for a couple of days. I didn't intend to 'forge relationships' here but, well, it happened and it doesn't seem right to just stay away when I feel like it any more.
I wanted to walk away a few days ago - not for any 'bad' reason but just because I'd had enough. I didn't know for how long. An hour, a day, a week, a month. But loyalty and obligation bring me back at least to explain - and once I'm here to 'explain' then I'm hooked back in again.
It's loyalty and obligation which also bring me back to my mother - but that's not a bad thing. Just for once, I'll not think there's something wrong with me! It's when the person I'm loyal to is (probably) bad for me that the problems start. But I don't think it's a bad thing to allow loyalty and 'obligation' bring me back in here when the apple cart has got upset. That's also why I will stay with my husband.
But perhaps there are better ways of 'staying in'. Of being more 'detached' as Portia says, stepping much further back than I did. Not right back. Just 'further' back. As I am already doing with my husband.
It's difficult to know what else I could have said differently. Let go, find 'humility' and play the empathy card perhaps. But I don't know what empathy to feel across the miles. I can only make assumptions. So then, why not 'just' share the feelings and thoughts I have as honestly as possible. The alternative is to say just nothing at all.
I think I've said before that I've no discrimination. It wasn't 'allowed' when I was a child. And so it's hard for me to do. Treat everybody the same, all or not at all. 'Context' is all. One is allowed to discern and discriminate and choose. I'm not sure I chose - I reacted. I'll try to remember that next time I'm riding down that bumpy track at 50mph. Perhaps I could just ask. 'If this is hurting, what do you want me to do that's different/to make it better?' :idea:
The other thing is about my use of the spotlight, zooming in on someone else to deflect from myself. I won't say that I don't. But what I will say is that I do it in order to say - "OK, enough of me, I've taken up a lot of time and attention. And now I must make reparation. Here is a gift.". But at that time and in that state (at the end of something that's 'all about me') I've noticed that I do it very poorly indeed, very inadequately, very clumsily. The last time I 'almost' did that, I chose not to after all. So I must be moving forward a little in this stormy sea of pain and change and confusion - no rudder, no map and a lifetime of bewildering relationships.
R
Wildflower - I did see the first sentence of your post above as I came in. And you're not the bad guy. I can't imagine CG or Portia wishing to suggest that for a minute. There are no bad guys here at all. And I guess in reassuring you, then I am reassuring me cos I then have to include me as well. We're all just struggling. All of us just the same. I just feel so agonisingly dreadful when someone is hurting - just as I think you do. We express it differently, live it differently. But I'll know next time that that is 'all' I am feeling and I'll look more closely next time and try to find a better way than 'agony'!!! :)
I'll come back later or tomorrow to read some more but I won't post straight away just because I was posting until 1.30am last night :roll: and I have two working days ahead of me, a day of preparation and a day doing something I've not done before. I'm sure I'll survive but I'm now stoking up some energy. Take care. I'm taking a deep breath now - woosh, off you go message - land the right way up and make everything better please. :lol:
R
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Now what was the point of having my heart open? So you could see what I 'intended'. Well, that should be OK but I'm not so sure that it helped you or me, truthfully, when perhaps both of us had experienced the pain of something clashing, some firework lit somewhere in our hearts, before one or both of us had touched down to our usual 'place in the sun' rather than 'place in the heat (of the moment)'.
I think I've said before that I've no discrimination. It wasn't 'allowed' when I was a child. And so it's hard for me to do. Treat everybody the same, all or not at all.
The other thing is about my use of the spotlight, zooming in on someone else to deflect from myself. I won't say that I don't. But what I will say is that I do it in order to say - "OK, enough of me, I've taken up a lot of time and attention. And now I must make reparation. Here is a gift.".
Okay, R, I hear you. I’m sorry I got so upset, and I’m sorry that I upset you in the process. In the future, if you ever hit a nerve again (if you’re not too mad or upset to talk to me again, that is), I’ll try to do a better job of sending up flares before getting too upset.
Take care,
Wildflower
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Hi R,
I'm really not trying to upset you, and I'm really sorry if you're shaking because of what I said (I'm shaking a little bit, too, okay?) If I knew of a way to express how I feel right now without bringing your world crashing down, I would. You know that, right? And if you read Portia's and Guest's responses, you'll see that they're supporting you, not protecting me, so don't worry that everyone thinks I've made you look bad. I'm the bad guy here.
Hey baby, you're not speakin' for me are ya'. You're never the bad guy. :D No bad guys here. :D I admire you the way you've stood your ground, and :D maintained communication. No, you are in no way, ever a bad guys. The bad guys are out there in the big wide world somewhere, unfortunately, but none here, and particularly not on this thread. What do you reckon. :wink: I'm sorry my silence on this topic has made you feel that's what I think, cause I don't.
I just wanted to give you and Rosencrantz room without my interruption, I didn't feel I could add anything, and I'd probably just make light dumb jokes when you're trying to resolve something important. Like a saggy tit joke or something about testosterone and balls. Or Gosh!! Forbid!! Maybe bore everybody to death, go right off topic with a mother story.
So ((((HIG))), and sorry :) pleease
I'm open to talk about it and share it, though, as long as we're sitting together on this field, on the same level, as friends.
What I'm not saying is that you're wrong and change and you're doing terrible things. No. You really are great. You have great insight at times. You really, truly are helpful. And I've learned a lot by talking with you and reading your postings. And I'll continue to do so no matter how this issue resolves (as long as you don't want me to go away, that is).
Does this make any more sense?
Wildflower
I think the last thing Rosencrantz would want is for you to go away. shock horror :shock:
OH MY GOSH. And I would absolutely positively desperately hate it.
No Wildflower toread or talk to. :shock: :shock: :shock:
Don't you dare.
I'm being assertive. hahhahahahaahahahaha
You get back here right now young miss. hahahahahahahahahah
No I'll stop now cause I'm serious now. I saw your last post and hope it's not hurting anymore, and it's all better now.
CG
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Hi Wildflower - Hi!!!
I just came back in and started reading. I didn't realise that CG and Portia had posted whilst I'd been thinking and writing.
And I started re-reading the post I posted back there and I'm happy to say...
I'm a twit! I'm a twit! I'm a twit!!!!!!!
I'm reading that long post and I'm thinking shut up you silly woman - just shut UP!!! I can't even bear to read it again. I know I posted some stuff that (could have been) relevant. I know I posted what was there truthfully in my mind. But, really!!! REALLY! Never again!!!!!
I'm a twit! I'm a twit! I'm a twit!!!!!!!
And I'm happy to so declare it!!!
Sorry for being a twit!!!
Need another T shirt, CG!!! Twit in residence (occasionally!)
And the integrity bit - yes, it's important not to rely on others to make me feel better (or not!) but I can't do it on my own (not yet anyway). And it's more likely to be one of those things I need to reverse. Allow myself to 'need' and rely on others.
And on the back of the T shirt - Tortured soul seeks hairshirt for love and companionship. :roll:
And I'm not giving anybody any more searing insight for at least, oh, I guess I could hold myself back for maybe a day, maybe two! I'm not sure I'd be able to keep myself under control for much longer!!! :wink:
Oh and Wildflower, I'm not 'mad', well not 'mad' mad anyway!!! JPN, maybe. :wink: :lol: Worn myself out again!!!
TTFN
R
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Rosencrantz, Portia, CG? I'd like you to meet my tough outer shell. Outer Shell? Meet Rosencrantz, Portia, and CG. :lol:
She's going back to sleep now. :wink:
I'll be back in a little while...gotta, um, catch up on a little work here :oops: :roll: :D .
(((((((HIGS))))))))
Wildflower
Ahem, Outer Shell? Do you have anything you to want to say (nudge nudge)?
((higs))
Well, it's a start, anyway... :roll: :wink:
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Hiya :D Wildflower's Outa shell, you're cool too!
(((BIG HIG)))
CG
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Higs everybody, may I splatter some thoughts/feels down? Then I want to leave for the day and go shopping…ha ha ha ha (I don’t shop). Why am I laughing like CG? It’s infectious. Is there a vaccine?
R: the mountain freaks me out. What was in your head when you wrote it please? You can get a hair-shirt and be a twit if you want to (does it help?) but heck, tell me about that. Right of reply/reverse questioning as always (i.e. have I done the same and you want an explanation?). Ha ha. Just got an image of a torch with a light at both ends.
WF: outer shell is outta shell? Like a Russian Doll, peel peel. I missed the post you deleted. You apologised to those who might have read it, but what about us nosy-parkers who missed it and have our curiosity raked up? I’m joking, I’m joking, I don’t want to. Unless you want me to! <-See that? Immediate worry ha ha what a circle/cycle.
CG: just been reading you the 11/12 year old. Bit of a bad day huh? In-*******-credible (but I do believe you, credible). How did you ever get to trust anyone? ….pause…..Plus, by gum, you on R’s men thread right now, I’m gonna give you my heart soon and you can take me apart with your laughing fingers. And stop that thought right now.
You know my latest Bore-to-Death subject: ‘Healing the child within’ and all that other jazz? (I’m saying this in the voice of Frank Sinatra, just for the heck of it): well, this is the very last reference: you all read it/read something similar? CG – you say no, I won’t believe you. I ask because I think you’ve all done the therapy jive and I ain’t. Might be wrong there, which wouldn’t be anything new. Out to those shops! P :arrow:
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Hi CG,
Hey baby, you're not speakin' for me are ya'. You're never the bad guy.
I'm sorry my silence on this topic has made you feel that's what I think, cause I don't.
No, no, CG. Nothing you did made me feel like a bad guy. Not at all. That was me talking. I felt bad for kicking up dust instead of letting it go – the bad guy in the sense of upsetting the apple cart. :wink: I kinda fumbled the last part of the first paragraph, too. I just wanted to point out to R that she still had support (nobody taking sides).
I just wanted to give you and Rosencrantz room without my interruption
Thanks for the room. :D As R put it, it was fireworks between us, so I was relieved that you and Portia weren’t getting caught in the mix.
Like a saggy tit joke or something about testosterone and balls.
:lol: :lol: :lol: You kill me, CG. In the best way possible. :D
Hi Portia,
Thanks for the reality-validation back there :D . Sorry I didn’t reply earlier but I was kinda, ahem, focused. :roll: And I just want to say, this chiquita doesn’t think your communication lacks anything. Some people need Portias, not Wildflowers. :D {EDIT: Does that translate? I like your style Portia. I like it when you ask a bunch of direct questions and express exactly what you're thinking. What I meant was that some people need to be asked tough questions or hear direct comments, otherwise they'll stay stuck. That's not really my strength, I don't think. At least, when I try, I feel like it comes out all wrong.}
Yeah, my outer shell imagery is all outta whack lately. Somehow, at some point, my inner child started looking after my outer shell. Strange. (shaking-crazy-thought-outta-my-head emoticon).
‘Healing the child within’ a bore-to-death subject? No way. Nope. I’ve already ordered the book. And I haven’t read anything similar (I don’t think). I’m following a scent my therapist gave me a while back, which is that I need to forgive the child who acted out when I was in third grade, and the mess of a teenager years later. Forgiving that teenager has been, by far, the hardest job – but I think we’re almost there ('we' being all these people I tow around with me :roll: :D ).
Time for me to wander out of my own wanderings for a bit :arrow: (can i borrow that?)
Wildflower
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HI Portia,
WF: outer shell is outta shell? Like a Russian Doll, peel peel. I missed the post you deleted. You apologised to those who might have read it, but what about us nosy-parkers who missed it and have our curiosity raked up? I’m joking, I’m joking, I don’t want to. Unless you want me to! <-See that? Immediate worry ha ha what a circle/cycle.
Shit I missed it too. F**K work. Why do we have to work?? Did you miss it too Rosencrantz??
CG: just been reading you the 11/12 year old. Bit of a bad day huh? In-*******-credible (but I do believe you, credible). How did you ever get to trust anyone? ….pause…..Plus, by gum, you on R’s men thread right now, I’m gonna give you my heart soon and you can take me apart with your laughing fingers. And stop that thought right now.
Yeah, went out to the shed and dug out an old motorbike helmet to wear for when you get back Rosencrantz. :? I got the feelin' you're gonna whoop my ass good honey!! :D Oh I'm so excited!! :D :D Remember, be gentle the first time :wink: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
[quote]You know my latest Bore-to-Death subject: ‘Healing the child within’ and all that other jazz? (I’m saying this in the voice of Frank Sinatra, just for the heck of it): well, this is the very last reference: you all read it/read something similar? CG – you say no, I won’t believe you. I ask because I think you’ve all done the therapy jive and I ain’t. Might be wrong there, which wouldn’t be anything new. Out to those shops!
P :arrow:[/quote][/quote]
Don't think I've read it Portia, but I read so many damn books I may have. When was it written? If it's a newy, I haven't. Who's the author?
Did ya' buy me anythin', huh, huh, did ya?
(((HIG)))
CG
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Thanks for the comments and thoughts Wildflower, and I hope you had a good Easter. I took off with some books, got lots of reading in, and stayed away from chocolate and fags. I think it's fantastic the way the way you were able to reconnect with your "good dad." I wonder if that happens much, or if your experience is fairly unique.
Your comment about writing John a letter. I've thought about that a trillion times. I could do that, but I have a huge reluctance. It's like a 'disrespect' thing for me. In my personal life I have this issue with keeping agreements, being at appointments on time etc. I'm never ever ever late. EVER. And if I make a promise, I always, always, ALWAYS keep it. Even if it kills me. Really. For some reason, promises to me are holy. Mine and other people's.
I'm very harsh on myself in this regard, and I guess because I've known about his promise to his family, :idea: (Mother knows what a stickler I am for keeping my promises, and insisting othr's keep theirs) maybe she made this up too? Hmmm, never thought of that before) I have to respect that. If John promised his wife that he'd have nothing to do with us again, then that makes me feel very awkward. That woman never hunted me down, and terrorised me, or emabrrassed me in front of my friends, like my mother did to her children.
But, I will say this. I think I can find some way to acknowledge John now, as a part of my life. Like I said, I've got photos of us together and I think I might go buy myself a little frame, and pick out a nice one of us together and put it up out where I can see it. It always gives me such a nice warm feeling to look at the photo and remember him, so why not? And I don't have to worry about the Witch of Endor over-reacting to it. She's gone years ago. And I fear finding out he's dead. In my heart he's young and handsome and kind and out there somewhere making the world a better place.
Then I think of the old crow, and that makes me think of all the memories I had to bury to keep her stable, and as a result my world stable. Things she didn't want to be reminded of, and things I didn't dare remind her of or she's go nutso. Talk about suck the life from my bones.
That woman would wear 3 or 4 different outfits in one day. If she bought a matching set, (hat glove shoes and handbag), she'd buy the same set in 4 or 5 different colours. And change as many times in one day.
And I had to compliment. Uggh, (groan) all the time complimenting. Giving the 'right' answer to her, "How does this look? Does it make my bum look too big? But then men like something to grab onto, don't they? Can you zip me? Do you think I've got too much eyeshadow on? Look at my stomach, does it look bloated? Wait till you start getting your period, you'll know what I mean. If you don't keep up your appearances, there's always a prettier one out there who will." My emotional fatigues sets it about now remebering it.
I hated this talk so much. Even now I am the worst to go girlie shopping with, and I'm totally hopeless to have girl talk with about fashion. My eyes glaze over and I go into a trance, and start chanting in a robotic monotone "You look lovely, yes I think the blue dress and blue eyeshadow highlights your blue hair beautifully. It's a very appealing combination. Now I've done my duty, can I go and be sick now please?"
No, don't ask me at all, I'm no bloody help. Don't take me shopping if you need to buy new clothes, or ask me how you look. I'll say "Great! Fantasic! Ten Years Younger," and you'll come home with just 2 things. Bags of the greatest pile of hideous outfits, and the thought that I did it on purpose.
I just read what I've written and I'm saying to myself "How did I get here???" :shock:
I started talking about John, and how you suggested that maybe I could drop him a line, then I thought about mother, then I thought about her effect on me, and then I went to how her effect on me has retarded my ability to relate normally in so many ways. The I thought about how I don't bother so much with changing my retardation behaviours because I think it would take too long. I just try to be aware of them and not let them cause damage. For example, I tell my friends I'm no good to go shopping, and warn them, "Don't ask me for advice. It's lousy." This is about as good as it's gonna get I think.
I think if I devoted the time it would take to repair the damage she's done I'd have no time or energy left to be mother or friend or wife.
In my mind I liken it to the world's biggest messiest bunch of different coloured string. My mother has put me over here in a corner with this huge messy bunch of string, and it's as big as a house. My job is I have to unravel it and sort all the colours into their groups, and join the different colours together, and it's gonna take forever. Am I going to spend the next 20 years doing, if it's going to be perfect? And in the end all I'm gonna have is a big ball of string to lug around, THAT'S NOT MINE! It's just her legacy to me. Yikes!!!! :shock:
How much of my kids lives or making friends or spending time with friends would I miss out on? How tired would I be all the time? Too tired to enjoy MY LIFE. I'd be be over there somewhere, tucked away in some corner of life, neglecting my own things, and spending my life STILL FOCUSSING ON HER CRAP & SORTING OUT HER CRAP!!!!! :x and that would just end making me mad and resentful. At her for manipulating me and me for being a sucker.
So I'm adjusting to this, "I'm not going to be able to put all the peices of my life back where I'd like them to be, but I can at least remember them, and know where they'd go." :D
Does that make sense? Anyway Wildflower, sorry for rambling on and on.
I had planned to only make it a short one.
Guest.
Hi Dawning, I don't know how to take this over to your thread. My ball of string is all I ever got from my mother. She added no value to my life whatsoever. A complete liability with no redeming features. Every time she flew in on her broomstick it would take 6 months to clean up the psyhological emotional and sometimes physical damage she caused. And I'd be lucky if she didn't cause me to lose a few relationships with others temporarily as well. Not worth it, I finally decided nearly 10 years ago. Best thing I ever did, for my family and me.
CG
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Hiya WF. Whoah!
What I meant was that some people need to be asked tough questions or hear direct comments, otherwise they'll stay stuck. That's not really my strength, I don't think. At least, when I try, I feel like it comes out all wrong.
Ah, gosh, well, (thank you for the kind words) – yes, perhaps some people do….but then again, we’ve all got to be in that place where we want to hear haven’t we? And if we’re not, no amount of talking will get to us. But please don’t say that’s not your strength. You’ve seen how I’ve got so angry and impatient on this board before? I’m not proud of some of it, no. It doesn’t come out wrong with you! WF, I meant what I said before – (did I say it or just think it?) – you’re warm, compassionate, kind – just what people need when they’re feeling low, not an inquisitioner like I can be at times. Different strokes…etc. Hey, how are you doing? You okay?
CG, you’re going to tell me next you used to be a biker and get me all steamed up aren’t you? Brrm brrrm. Oh yes! Did you wear leathers? Black ones...? more on the funny kinky thread tomorrow maybe..(no I’m not trying to tease but you made me LOL literally again).
Hey, and just in case, I meant that in all good terms (about the men thread and heart stuff), you see the obvious and I want you to see my heart and tell me – coz I want to see too. You’re great at it. What’s your rate then? And ya don’t need that book – you know that stuff (recovery, healing, observing: thinking/feeling/observing/loving child) but it’s the Charles Whitfield book. I say you don’t need it coz you talk as though you’ve done it (if you haven’t, how come you’re not a major therapist?)
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Ah, gosh, well, (thank you for the kind words) – yes, perhaps some people do….but then again, we’ve all got to be in that place where we want to hear haven’t we? And if we’re not, no amount of talking will get to us. But please don’t say that’s not your strength. You’ve seen how I’ve got so angry and impatient on this board before? I’m not proud of some of it, no. It doesn’t come out wrong with you! WF, I meant what I said before – (did I say it or just think it?) – you’re warm, compassionate, kind – just what people need when they’re feeling low, not an inquisitioner like I can be at times. Different strokes…etc. Hey, how are you doing? You okay?
Thanks again, Portia. :D I think I’ve been plummeting down a self-doubt hole for the past day or so, so that means a lot to me. I think I’m getting my feet back on the ground now, though.
R, are you okay?
CG, you’re going to tell me next you used to be a biker and get me all steamed up aren’t you? Brrm brrrm. Oh yes! Did you wear leathers? Black ones...?
CG, please tell me this is true! Did you know (are you psychic? ha ha ha :wink: ) that my good dad has always had motorcycles…and he used to pick me up from school on one every day?? The other kids used to line up at the fence when he arrived (this is so cute) and ask him to take them for a ride. :D I even had a little baby helmet (though he never had one…still doesn’t…need to talk to him about that (one-eyebrow-raised emoticon).)
(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
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Hi guys - can I come back in??? Room for a little one??
Well, hi! I've been really busy working on my feelings in between all the other things I've needed to do.
Hi Wildflower. I'm still not quite sure 'what happened'. I'm really not. I have a feeling of being on shifting sand and.... Mind you, I've just realised the irony. You certainly made me hear you, WF, and it certainly created a painful impact :lol: (Now what was I saying about you never hurt me??? Me and my big mouth!!! :wink:)
Because I'm kinda getting lost in all this, I won't try to struggle on with explanations.
But I should clarify this bit : I don't understand why you think I think you're like a child. The thought never entered my head!
But I see you've asked me questions. So here's my 'working through' to find some answers.
I mean, by wanting to be supportive and caring, does that mean to you that I'm weak and lower down the mountain? Do you think that's necessarily the result of being damaged, instead of something I've worked very hard to 'reclaim'?
The answer to the first sentence is (puzzled frown) 'no, not at all'.
The answer to the second is 'I'm not sure if you mean what I mean. I don't think being 'supportive and caring is 'wrong' or a bad thing. I wouldn't have used the word 'damaged'. I think that sometimes we may work hard to reclaim things that aren't good for us.'
But I wasn't talking about being 'supportive and caring'. I was talking about being afraid of hurting people. I think these are two different things. Being supportive and caring takes you 'out' to people; being afraid of hurting people holds you back and away from people.
But I can't know where you're coming from, so here's where I'm coming from :
I've had issues with being too 'gentle' in my life (as a result of guilt and shame) - it's been bad for me and stopped me looking after myself, and it's been worth 'fighting off' and sending it back to childhood where it belongs. But that's nothing to do with being a child. More likely it's about being too grown up, too soon. Having a 'delicate' parent who is too easily damaged and taking responsibility for it (as a child) comes out in the R-adult as 'fearing to tread' and feeling terribly guilty and/or ashamed for the harm I perceive I have caused. But actually whatever is going on is all 'out there' and there is no causal link at all - or a very circuitous, tenuous link. I 'naturally' take responsibility for everything that goes wrong and have to be quite 'sharp' in being aware that I'm not!!!
The ledge, Portia - thanks for asking. It's a recurring symbol for me. When I was having that very difficult time with a therapist, I 'saw' myself on a massive sheer rock face on a tiny ledge. No other ledges anywhere up or down. Very alone.
When I wrote about the 'green and sunny' mountain ledge, I didn't regard myself as coming from any 'superior position' - I certainly wasn't in that field any more tho! I'd forgotten all about it. I was in a terrible panic. Desperation to get things 'right'. Put things the 'right way up'. Like everything had got tipped over and thrown around. I'm still not quite sure what happened in my feelings. Come on everybody, quick, we've got to climb the mountain to get to where it's green again. Quick, quick, give me your hand.
I'm sorry if you thought I was looking down on you from a superior height, WF. It didn't feel like that inside me. Nor did it when I made my initial observation : I was reaching out as one to one - hands across the sea. There was a 'differential height' image involved I acknowledge and I'm trying to understand how that might feel and what I intended. Well here's another image which resonates with the mountain ledge for me : if I believed I was in a lifeboat, reaching out into the sea to give you a hand out of the water - would that feel that I was looking down on you, too???
I suppose it assumes that you wanted a helping hand, and you probably didn't. It was me who needed the helping hand but, in my 'lifescript', my only choice is to give a helping hand to someone else. Or 'here ve haf ze projection, zis girl vants ze help, knows she won't get any so projects her need into someone else and then helps herself by helping the other person - boy can I get tortuous!!!
I thought the information about management was an interesting fact to share but it was shared in total panic!!! I was being a headless chicken again!!! Panic - don't think, anyone, don't feel - terrible things are happening. Close the hatches. Distract everyone, quick!!! Just keep talking!! Gabble, gabble, gabble. And if I keep writing, keep my thoughts working furiously, maybe I won't have to feel the guilt and the panic and the pain, and then the 'knowledge' that I'm a terrible person won't overwhelm me before my feelings have a chance to subside and my rational mind can take over again.
These feelings aren't the fault of anyone else. They are mine and I own them (let's make sure everyone understands that) but when these feelings take over, I'm likely to want to throw myself off the nearest cliff so I have good reason to want to keep them in check until 'I' get back in charge.
Does that make me really peculiar, really sick? I don't think so really - just experiencing a LOT of pain and being 'too' empassioned about everything. There's too much I can't detach from, Portia!!! But I think these feelings come from childhood again. I don't see where else they could have come from. Childhood reactions, childhood decisions. When buttons get pressed, that's where we drop back to. As if the earth just opened up and dropped us - plummet, crash!
I now feel as though you think I'm just a child who doesn't get it, and the real reason you didn't listen to me is that you didn't think I had anything of value to add to our discussions
Gosh, what painful honestly. You said that you heard me say that this had 'changed'. But I never said that or implied that at all, in the first place or ever. So it couldn't have changed. That just wasn't what I was trying to say. It's so completely 'not' what I was saying. I can't emphasise enough that it's not what I was saying.
But I just felt so AWFUL that you were thinking that's what I intended to say. And it felt like every time I tried to tell you that's not what I was saying, somehow you heard something EVEN WORSE! :shock: I felt absolute DESPAIR!!! :cry: As well as panic and all the rest.
I can relate these feelings of mine back to childhood and my mother. I don't think you're like my mother, by the way!!!! :wink: I know you are mishearing me because something I said tripped a wire, pressed an unexpected button. And now I wonder if you'll ever 'hear' me, who I am, because I got the impression somewhere somehow that you'd actually felt these things for some time and it had all suddenly burst forth.
If I say to you "I was taught to ask 'who, in your life, do I remind you of' in circumstances such as these", will you once again feel that I'm offering you something from up the mountain rather than in the long grass???
I’m sorry I got so upset, and I’m sorry that I upset you in the process
.
I'm really struggling to say this right : It's OK for you to get upset. And my upset is my own. It's not your 'fault'. And it's not something you 'did'. And I don't want you to feel you should act different 'because' I got upset. OK, you said, felt, thought whatever it was that set me off, but my upset is my own. And here's proof that it's OK - cos something good came out of what I experienced. Another bubble seems to have 'popped'. A hugely positive step. I'll tell you later as I think I've taken up more than enough board space for now.
TTFN
R
PS And WHAT, CG have you been up to over on that other thread? I'll have to wait until tomorrow now to find out. What horrors await me? Just wait til I get that hairbrush!!! :wink:
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Hi R,
I’m glad you came back and posted this. I was a bit worried about you. I’m sorry that I’ve been the cause of pain for you, but I’m so relieved that there’s a silver lining for you (bubble popping).
But I just felt so AWFUL that you were thinking that's what I intended to say. And it felt like every time I tried to tell you that's not what I was saying, somehow you heard something EVEN WORSE! I felt absolute DESPAIR!!! As well as panic and all the rest.
Me, too, R. I felt awfult that I was causing you so much distress. And every attempt I made to clarify myself just backfired. I'm hoping this time will be different?
I now feel as though you think I'm just a child who doesn't get it, and the real reason you didn't listen to me is that you didn't think I had anything of value to add to our discussions
Gosh, what painful honestly. You said that you heard me say that this had 'changed'. But I never said that or implied that at all, in the first place or ever. So it couldn't have changed. That just wasn't what I was trying to say. It's so completely 'not' what I was saying. I can't emphasise enough that it's not what I was saying.
I believe you, R. Maybe sometime when things have cooled down I can explain how I got here (if it even matters by then). But for now, I believe you.
But I can't know where you're coming from
On my way home tonight, a bit bewildered by how you can’t see why I might have gotten so upset after all my attempts to explain myself, it dawned on me that perhaps it’s because we come from two very different flavors of N households. Your mother smothered you and didn’t give you a minute to have your own emotions or anything. I wondered if feeling ignored might be a welcome relief for you – not your worst fear and most powerful demon. But in my house, I was ignored. I watched Amelie again on Monday night and in the beginning, Amelie is a child being given a check-up by her father who’s a doctor of some sort. Amelie is so deprived of attention from her father and longs so much for any human contact with him, that whenever he listens to her heart, it’s racing with excitement. So her father thinks she has a heart condition!!
Well, that’s just about how desperate for attention I was growing up. Mom picked me up when she needed me, and then threw me back in the corner with the rest of her toys when she didn’t. Whenever she was giving me attention, I tried so hard to be my best, but she couldn’t see me. Not at all. She saw many people (many she hated), but not me. She misunderstood me completely – and not just in that misunderstood teenager way. She completely misunderstood me from the time I was born. She recently told me that I had always been strong and determined - even when I was a baby. (I am, but it’s because I’ve had to be in order to survive – and this “strength” has even led to panic attacks and other stress-related problems.) She told me that she used to watch me in my crib getting so frustrated when I couldn’t lift my head but she could “tell” that I was determined to find a way to do it. Did it occur to her that maybe that look on my face was frustration as a result of having no help? That I needed help because I hadn’t yet developed the muscles I needed to be able to lift my head? Uh, no.
Actually, mom has all kinds of ‘definitions’ of me that are based on who I was forced to be in order to survive. I’ve been shedding them like crazy lately, but every now and then, I slip back. But I digress...
something I said tripped a wire, pressed an unexpected button. And now I wonder if you'll ever 'hear' me, who I am, because I got the impression somewhere somehow that you'd actually felt these things for some time and it had all suddenly burst forth.
Maybe if I explain what happened from where I sit? Maybe it’ll make sense? Maybe we can compare notes? Before I set out on this path, though, please know that I have every hope that once we can find some common understanding here. So…
Back when you were upset after RG shut down the threads, I reached out to you because I sensed that you were used to being the helper, but not used to being helped. I sensed it because I identify with it. Or rather, that used to be a big problem for me. I really don’t think I have a problem with people helping me anymore (you may see differently, but let me hint that I have a problem with being talked down to, not being helped. But I’ll get to that later if you're interested).
Anyway, when I reached out to you at that time, I got no reply, and you started new threads. I considered the idea that what I was saying might be upsetting you, but what made me finally back off was the idea that I was preventing you from reaching your own answers by blocking off paths for you (putting up barriers at the end of your threads). Now, I realized that this might be way off, so I sent you a pm saying I felt I was chasing you around and not being very helpful, so I was going to back off – so you would understand why I wasn’t responding anymore.
Then I noticed that you were responding (well) to CG and Portia. So I thought, hey. Cool. She’s got support. Doesn’t happen to be me, but that’s not why I’m here, is it? So I went on my way, responding occasionally but all the while knowing that CG and Portia made more sense to you. I felt a bit excluded when you listed the members of your elite support group, but again, this isn’t a place for cliques – or getting feathers ruffled over them. Nevertheless, I was relieved and happy to find out you did consider me to be among those who gave you support – in whatever way I had.
So, I kept all this in mind when you were upset on the anniversary of your father’s death. I offered what support I had knowing that you would take it or leave it (most likely leave it), and some of what I said was even picked up and rephrased by CG and Portia. Cool. I did feel a bit ignored, to be sure, but I’ve learned to explain away that feeling because I know I’m sensitive to it and can't really expect anyone to reassure me all the time. So when you said,
Dear Wildflower. If I say there's nothing you could say that could hurt me, does it mean to you that I'm not listening? I'm listening.
I thought, wow, am I sending out those signals and she’s picking up on them? Well, I hope not, but in any case, it’s nice of her to think of me – and reassure me – without me having to ask. :D I even felt good about NOT letting my weakness about feeling ignored get the best of me.
So when you said to me on Monday that you HAD been ignoring me (OUCH) :shock: , and not only that but it was because of something I was doing (as opposed to how you were perceiving me) (YIKES) :shock: , and not only that but hinted at the idea that EVERYONE might feel this way :shock: :shock: :shock: , it hurt big time. As you, yourself put it:
I 'naturally' take responsibility for everything that goes wrong and have to be quite 'sharp' in being aware that I'm not!!!
This is exactly what I was trying to relate in my delegation story – in an effort to explain how easily (as an ACON, my responsibility, but still) I was thrown into self-doubt when it was suggested that being ignored was my fault.
And of course I was forced into a new (and painful – I was being ignored after all!!) understanding of why you hadn’t been responding to my posts. :cry: :cry: :cry:
There’s no way you could have known all this about me R, because I’m the only one sitting in my skin. And I’m not angry with you anymore because I know you never meant to upset me. But on a voicelessness forum, can you see why being told that you're being ignored might be very painful?
So, may I?
something I said tripped a wire, pressed an unexpected button.
But I can't know where you're coming from
This is why I am careful with people I don’t know - because I don’t know what their worst fears are. I don’t know whether what I have to say is helpful or actually very hurtful. That’s why I feel I can say that I have gotten to the bottom of my irrational fear of hurting people, all while continuing to be very careful with people. Yes, I reach out. But speaking my mind isn’t always a top priority to me. Making sure I’m not saying something that, from someone else’s point of view, is destructive – often is. This is different from protecting people from reality, which I try not to do - carefully.
Furthermore, this is all part of my desire to understand people – in a way I never was. And it's something I’ve had to reclaim, because for so long I was lashing out and too defensive (and in too much pain) to ‘see’ or ‘hear’ people. Now, there may be problems with this desire to understand people, but right now, it’s not hurting me. It actually helps me in many ways, but I'll save that for another time, if the subject happens to come up. Can you take my word for it though?
And now I wonder if you'll ever 'hear' me, who I am
So, in answer to this, I want to hear/understand you. I may not now, but I want to. We're very different, R. I feel like we certainly share some questions and answers and experiences, but we're coming from different places. And I hope by telling you all this here, you can hear me a little more clearly, even if you don't agree with me.
All my best,
Wildflower
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Hi guys,
Not wantin' to cut across/into/out any of these workin's between Wildflower and Rosencrantz, but it's had me thinkin' about how I've related to people and read, interpreted and reacted to things people have said to me over the decades. When I was younger I used to be so LOUD. A real 'in your face' type.
Hard to believe, isn't it. hahahahahahaahahahaahahaah
It kept people 'at bay' though. That's how I protected myself. Then I became more considered, cause I had to, and I read lot's of books about conflict resolution, communication skills, blaah blaaah blaah. I can still react 'LOUD' (believe it or not) hahahaahahahahaha when threatened or embarrassed or feeling challenged. But it's usually mixed up now with thoughts like " What I think I'm hearing this person saying may only be my wonky antennae again."
It's not so much self- doubt, or maybe it is. :shock: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha.
Reminds me of the joke, " I never doubt myself, hmmm, at least I don't think I do." :?
But back in my gung-ho days, in public for example. I often have a razor quick wit, and tongue when strangers attempt to embarrass me. One day a couple of years ago, I was tired, had my period, just wanted to go to bed for the day. But I remember I had to go to the bank.
I parked the car, got out, kids in tow, and had to walk past some coucil guys doin' road works. The guys wolf-whistled at me and carried on like 2 bob watches. One guy yelled out, "Hey love, come over here and sit on my face?" I shouted back, didn't even think about what I was goin' to say, but loud-for-loud, out came "Okay, I'll be back in a min, and it's just the right time of the month too." The guy who shouted went bright red-faced and the others guys laughed and laughed so much at him. I just stuck my head up high and kept walkin'.
Then I had to walk back past them. I eyeballed them and laughed at them and said something even cruder about how he'd be even more red-faced when I got through with him. Yuuuuuk!!
That's sort of not relevant here because I didn't know those men, but that's what I used to be like. I had a smart-arsed answer for everybody. Now, I still think them, they pop into my head all the time, but more often than not, I don't say them as much.
I used to be so rough on people. Way too rough. But now I've gone the other way. It's not that I'm afraid to hurt people. Maybe that's a small part of it. I don't know yet clearly, but I do know it 's got a lot to do with this. That I want to be able to control what I say and to be the one in control of my responses to others.
I don't have a problem with the situation I quoted above, with the council workers and would probably still do the same today, cause he was bloody rude, that bloke. But I used to be like that most of the time, and inappropriately. Some here may say I still am. And I'd probably reply , "Can it Jacko, at least there's a cure for my problem. What the F**k are you gonna do???" :wink:
It was my technique for keeping people in line if they were getting too personal when I don't want them to, or I think they are hurting me. Cutting and embarrassing them the hell out of them.
Like one time in a pub I was working in, a regular (alcho) customer who was a retired cop and a real smart arse, was sitting at his usual table with all of his old mates called me back to the table. He said he had something he wanted to show me. I said "What?" He started makin' out like he was undoin' his pants. I casually said as I turned and walked away, "Oh you men, you're always kiddin' yourselves thinkin' you've got a big one. I've never met a woman who couldn't always take just that little bit more!" and laughed at him and walked away. His mates went into hysterics and he was sooooo embarrassed. They talked about it for ages and he never smart-arsed me again.
So I guess some of us have found our ways to communicate and protect ourselves in many ways. I've come from the point of being too brutal with humour, and try now to be more considerate and respectful. Rosencrantz, you seem to have come from the opposite world of being 'too considerate'.
Anyway, there's a real brief summary on my communication history with strangers. That's one reason why I've never suffered never bein' invited to parties and stuff. My friends wouldn't dream of having a party without me cause they see me as good entertainment value.
But with my friends and family I'm different. I get brain-freeze and then can spend hours and days tryin' to work out the under-lyin' meanin's to what ever was said that disturbed me. I often can't think of quick or even slow come back or response. I get so caught up in tryin' to make sure I'm on the right ground first, that I often don't get to have my say at all.
And then for days and weeks I'm sayin' to myself, "Why didn't I say this, or that" and I think of the appropriate sometimes even brilliant repsonse way too late :( damn!!!
I have laways used humour to deflect attention, stop people from getting to close. The class clown, popular as hell, even with the teachers. I think nobody ever dreamed to check on me to see if I was alright, cause I was always crackin' jokes and happy and makin' people laugh.
But I can see how a big part of my psyche self-defense is humour. It keeps people at a safe distance. I'm sort of the poor man's Billy Connelly. I love that guy. Hmmm, that'll do for now, I'm combing the recipe books to see what I'm gonna make for dinner on Satdy nite. Tossin' up on attemptin' the Chateaubriand that reads really easy to do in a totally cool 70's recipe book I got at an op-shop last week. I've cooked a couple of fantastic dishes out of it that surprised me how easy they were. The person who put this book together "Good Housekeeping Big Winter Cook-Book"" has made it all so fool-proof, so I'm game. But I think I'll buy the mustard hollandaise, I couldn't be bothered makin' that.
Thanks for letting me rave, oh yeah, ps, you know I can't be funny if I have to be. My husband had this gross habit of always telling people how funny I was, so they'd meet me and he'd say "Go on tell them about the time you did such and such." BALAAAAAAAH.
I couldn't make a funny if my life depended on it. I can't do it if I have to. A friend/business associate I had once asked to help out on some radio jingles. The guy wanted some humour in his radio ads. He thought I was the funniest person he'd ever met. (Probably 'cause he was always chasin' me round his office- building with a hard-on. Crackin' jokes was how I used to deflect him, it's pretty hard to keep a hard-on when you're laughin' your head off.) But I couldn't come up with one funny line in the meetings. Yet back in the car or at lunch with him they were flying out of my mouth like I was blowin' raspberries. I ended up sayin' to him, you'll just have to follw me around with a cassette player, and keep sexually harrassin' me, then we'll get these f**kin' ads done, and then I'm outta here. Aaaaaargh. :wink:
(((HIG)))
CG
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Heh. And as a PS. I'm so frickin' earnest when I'm tryin to make a point. Sheesh. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Ahhhhh, but you haven't seen the mischievous side of me. Bwahahahaha.....
Can I say, CG, that you remind me so much of a friend I had in high school? She was always so much cooler than me, but she still kept me in tow anyhows... :D We used to get kicked outta class all the time, and boy did she have a blast pestering the uptight boys. :D
(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
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Hey, Wildflower, Portia and Rosencrantz, not wanting to deviate from your new post Wildflower, but did you see the 'statistics' post. hahahahahahahaha. Gee I laughed. I found myself wasting my time initially wondering what the poster's point was. :?
You know, of course I immediately went all suspicious and defensive thinkin' stuff like "What is she or he trying to say here. :x ?" "Is this a cheap guilt trip?"
But then I knew what it was for :idea: and so I printed it out, and YES, I found it really useful. :D Not to heavy, not to light, just right. Firm and not too harsh. Perfect, it was just what I needed, cause I'd run out of loo paper and had been holdin' off on havin' that big crap I just had :D :D
(((HIG)))
PS, thank goodness I didn't have the thick glossy KODAK photo quality paper in my printer, or it would have slid halfway up my back and cost me 2 bucks a wipe. hahahahahahahaahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahahaha.
CG
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But then I knew what it was for and so I printed it out, and YES, I found it really useful. Not to heavy, not to light, just right. Firm and not too harsh. Perfect, it was just what I needed, cause I'd run out of loo paper and had been holdin' off on havin' that big crap I just had
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahaha
Wildflower
P.S. - That's ANOTHER post, CG. Better keep up. :lol:
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Hey R,
Gosh, maybe I didn't need to put up my earlier post at the top of this page, but it seems like there's some useful explanation in there in case this still makes zero sense.
Simple, simple answer to why I got so upset in the first place:
If you had said, "I was ignoring you, but I'm sorry. I see now why I was ignoring you, but in the future I'll probably listen to you more." I could have handled it. Maybe you could have shared with me what prevented you from hearing me at that point, too, and I'd have been able to deal with it - maybe even adjust when posting to you.
I simply couldn't deal with the idea that it was my fault that you ignored me - and that everyone else might be, too. THAT'S why I got so upset, because I'm sorry R. It's not true. People don't ignore me. And even if they do, how can you know why? And I can't help how you read my posts anymore than you can know where another person's coming from.
Wildflower
-
Hi guys,
Not wantin' to cut across/into/out any of these workin's between Wildflower and Rosencrantz, but it's had me thinkin' about how I've related to people and read, interpreted and reacted to things people have said to me over the decades. When I was younger I used to be so LOUD. A real 'in your face' type.
Hard to believe, isn't it. hahahahahahaahahahaahahaah
It kept people 'at bay' though. That's how I protected myself. Then I became more considered, cause I had to, and I read lot's of books about conflict resolution, communication skills, blaah blaaah blaah. I can still react 'LOUD' (believe it or not) hahahaahahahahaha when threatened or embarrassed or feeling challenged. But it's usually mixed up now with thoughts like " What I think I'm hearing this person saying may only be my wonky antennae again."
It's not so much self- doubt, or maybe it is. :shock: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha.
Reminds me of the joke, " I never doubt myself, hmmm, at least I don't think I do." :?
But back in my gung-ho days, in public for example. I often have a razor quick wit, and tongue when strangers attempt to embarrass me. One day a couple of years ago, I was tired, had my period, just wanted to go to bed for the day. But I remember I had to go to the bank.
I parked the car, got out, kids in tow, and had to walk past some coucil guys doin' road works. The guys wolf-whistled at me and carried on like 2 bob watches. One guy yelled out, "Hey love, come over here and sit on my face?" I shouted back, didn't even think about what I was goin' to say, but loud-for-loud, out came "Okay, I'll be back in a min, and it's just the right time of the month too." The guy who shouted went bright red-faced and the others guys laughed and laughed so much at him. I just stuck my head up high and kept walkin'.
Then I had to walk back past them. I eyeballed them and laughed at them and said something even cruder about how he'd be even more red-faced when I got through with him. Yuuuuuk!!
That's sort of not relevant here because I didn't know those men, but that's what I used to be like. I had a smart-arsed answer for everybody. Now, I still think them, they pop into my head all the time, but more often than not, I don't say them as much.
I used to be so rough on people. Way too rough. But now I've gone the other way. It's not that I'm afraid to hurt people. Maybe that's a small part of it. I don't know yet clearly, but I do know it 's got a lot to do with this. That I want to be able to control what I say and to be the one in control of my responses to others.
I don't have a problem with the situation I quoted above, with the council workers and would probably still do the same today, cause he was bloody rude, that bloke. But I used to be like that most of the time, and inappropriately. Some here may say I still am. And I'd probably reply , "Can it Jacko, at least there's a cure for my problem. What the F**k are you gonna do???" :wink:
It was my technique for keeping people in line if they were getting too personal when I don't want them to, or I think they are hurting me. Cutting and embarrassing them the hell out of them.
Like one time in a pub I was working in, a regular (alcho) customer who was a retired cop and a real smart arse, was sitting at his usual table with all of his old mates called me back to the table. He said he had something he wanted to show me. I said "What?" He started makin' out like he was undoin' his pants. I casually said as I turned and walked away, "Oh you men, you're always kiddin' yourselves thinkin' you've got a big one. I've never met a woman who couldn't always take just that little bit more!" and laughed at him and walked away. His mates went into hysterics and he was sooooo embarrassed. They talked about it for ages and he never smart-arsed me again.
So I guess some of us have found our ways to communicate and protect ourselves in many ways. I've come from the point of being too brutal with humour, and try now to be more considerate and respectful. Rosencrantz, you seem to have come from the opposite world of being 'too considerate'.
Anyway, there's a real brief summary on my communication history with strangers. That's one reason why I've never suffered never bein' invited to parties and stuff. My friends wouldn't dream of having a party without me cause they see me as good entertainment value.
But with my friends and family I'm different. I get brain-freeze and then can spend hours and days tryin' to work out the under-lyin' meanin's to what ever was said that disturbed me. I often can't think of quick or even slow come back or response. I get so caught up in tryin' to make sure I'm on the right ground first, that I often don't get to have my say at all.
And then for days and weeks I'm sayin' to myself, "Why didn't I say this, or that" and I think of the appropriate sometimes even brilliant repsonse way too late :( damn!!!
I have laways used humour to deflect attention, stop people from getting to close. The class clown, popular as hell, even with the teachers. I think nobody ever dreamed to check on me to see if I was alright, cause I was always crackin' jokes and happy and makin' people laugh.
But I can see how a big part of my psyche self-defense is humour. It keeps people at a safe distance. I'm sort of the poor man's Billy Connelly. I love that guy. Hmmm, that'll do for now, I'm combing the recipe books to see what I'm gonna make for dinner on Satdy nite. Tossin' up on attemptin' the Chateaubriand that reads really easy to do in a totally cool 70's recipe book I got at an op-shop last week. I've cooked a couple of fantastic dishes out of it that surprised me how easy they were. The person who put this book together "Good Housekeeping Big Winter Cook-Book"" has made it all so fool-proof, so I'm game. But I think I'll buy the mustard hollandaise, I couldn't be bothered makin' that.
Thanks for letting me rave, oh yeah, ps, you know I can't be funny if I have to be. My husband had this gross habit of always telling people how funny I was, so they'd meet me and he'd say "Go on tell them about the time you did such and such." BALAAAAAAAH.
I couldn't make a funny if my life depended on it. I can't do it if I have to. A friend/business associate I had once asked to help out on some radio jingles. The guy wanted some humour in his radio ads. He thought I was the funniest person he'd ever met. (Probably 'cause he was always chasin' me round his office- building with a hard-on. Crackin' jokes was how I used to deflect him, it's pretty hard to keep a hard-on when you're laughin' your head off.) But I couldn't come up with one funny line in the meetings. Yet back in the car or at lunch with him they were flying out of my mouth like I was blowin' raspberries. I ended up sayin' to him, you'll just have to follw me around with a cassette player, and keep sexually harrassin' me, then we'll get these f**kin' ads done, and then I'm outta here. Aaaaaargh. :wink:
(((HIG)))
CG
Hey Portia, what syndrome do you reckon I have??? Has it got a name???
I thought maybe 'Jester Syndrome' sounds good.
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hang on....I've got loads to catch up on here...got a bit way-laid :wink: ...by the Stats thread...back soon..P
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Hi again Wildflower - I'm really sorry you are hurting!
bewildered by how you can’t see why I might have gotten so upset after all my attempts to explain myself,
Thanks for that - I hadn't seen that's what had been going on for you. The answer is...convoluted! The answer is because I believed I didn't say what you heard and so I was preoccupied with the fact you weren't able to hear what I really said rather than trying to deal with the hurt which had arisen in response to what you thought I'd said. If I could have just made you hear what I really said, I believed you wouldn't be feeling hurt so 'obviously' (to me) the 'hurt' was an irrelevance! (Panic! I've got to make her hear me so she won't hurt and won't blame me for hurting her and my father won't blame me and I won't get into trouble! And, anyway, I'm only 2 years old!!!)
If you had said, "I was ignoring you...
I couldn't have said that cos that's not what I meant, it's not what I was talking about.
I simply couldn't deal with the idea that it was my fault
That's not what I was saying either.
People don't ignore me. And even if they do, how can you know why?
Again, that's not where I was 'coming from' or what I was saying. But I hear a lot of hurt in that sentence and wonder where the hurt is coming from. And then my brain goes : But your mother did. Your mother ignored you and that's where all this hurt comes from.
Your mother smothered you and didn’t give you a minute to have your own emotions or anything. I wondered if feeling ignored might be a welcome relief for you – not your worst fear and most powerful demon.
Yes, that's right. I want to get on and do my work here and not be brought to the attention of the world by some idiot statistician!!! :wink: I see you and Portia having suffered in a similar way to each other - different yet similar but the opposite of my experience.
But what's the same for all of us is that whatever we 'got' in our childhood, we set up to 'get' in our lives here and now. Even tho we hated our experience as a child and we didn't have an experience that was good for us, we INTERPRET things in the way we interpreted them back then. And these are the bubbles worth bursting.
I didn't 'ignore' you in those old posts after RG shut things down. I was protecting my supporters from getting in the cross-fire between me and some other shitface. (:shock: language! perlease!). I intended to come back but felt I'd be bringing up negative stuff after it was, to all intents and purposes, all done and dusted. I'd have been pedantic and a pain in the bum if I'd have done that. I also hadn't realised what your pm meant but I was in far too bad a place to even begin to look after other people's feelings at that time.
But perhaps also there are conflicting values at play here in terms of being softly softly and being upfront. Not sure.
Try Eric Berne's Games People Play - it's a wonderful book. It's decades old but still wonderful. It isn't about 'bad' games, about manipulation or anything like that - it's about life 'scripts', how we set ourselves up. In my initial reactions to how you experienced what I said, a page or so back, I, too, was still, as ever, acting out my own life script. I couldn't 'hear' YOU because I was making too much noise myself :shock: When I started to re-read it, I noticed something, I realised something. I wasn't sure what exactly - just that I was a 'twit'!!! :wink: And the bubble burst. I'm free of creating some terrible scenario in my head and my heart that stops me from calmly 'righting' my world and handling whatever comes up.
And yesterday - totally different circumstances, but same 'me'! - I calmly told someone (work-related) what they had just 'done' to me and what they had been doing to me for years, and I told them I wanted it to stop. And I was only able to do that because of what happened here.
And it was probably the most powerful statement I have ever made in my life.
Because I'm not 2 years old any more.
R
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Wow R, what did you say? (Sorry to butt in here) Can you say, or dress it up/down, change it if it’s personal?
And it was probably the most powerful statement I have ever made in my life.
:!: Wow! P
PS. If we can get this thread to run to 13 pages....it'll be the longest thread on the whole board! Bwah ha ha ha ha ! And yes, dipso here paged through 10 pages to see that...I could've been working on loo roll, I know.... :roll:
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Hi Portia - I'm not sure if it will 'translate' out of context. And the whole situation is far too convoluted to try to explain. I received an email which made a statement that wasn't true but was taken for granted as true. You know, like my mother and the 'you look depressed but you're making it up and anyway you're copying me' scenario. Convoluted obfuscation which I find almost impossible to pull apart. But I did!!! I wrote a letter that cut through all the crap of the previous two years (like a hot knife through butter! Take it easy, CG!) and ends...
[Edited to protect the not so innocent!]
I realised just how abusive his attitude was towards me, how much he put me on the other side of the fence AND (more importantly) that I didn't belong there!!!!! :shock: I also realised just how abusive some other people's behaviour was to me and that he had the power to do something about it and indeed SHOULD do something about it. (My activity brings a LOT of money into his business.)
Just a short while ago, I'd be portraying this as a scenario from my childhood, not paying proper attention to it because it's just 'in my mind'. Well, it isn't 'just in my mind', it's real, it's 'out there' and it's happening. And 'just like my father', this guy should be doing something about it. He has the power to change things, and I don't!
So I may be speaking to my father but I'm also speaking to this guy. Or vice versa. This is the message I should have given my father when I was two years old (and 12 and 20!!!). Made it, at last. Before, I only felt shame that I was being abused! :shock: (I can't believe I'm saying this!)
Throughout my life, God, fate or some part of me kept arranging for me to meet people like my mother so I could finally deal with 'her' and I just wasn't listening. So finally I got my mother back again to deal with 'in the flesh'. And still it took one more person here on this board some time ago before I could work it all out. And now I've been sent my father to deal with through this work thing. I've been marginally quicker this time round.
Pop! The bubble burst.
And yes, you can tell me that mean thing about my father on whichever thread seems appropriate. I'm sure it won't be a surprise!!!!! :)
R
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But I can see how a big part of my psyche self-defense is humour. It keeps people at a safe distance.
Hi CG - I woke up thinking about you this morning. I was thinking that you won't get your work done until you share with us that other side of you, the frightened you, the one your mother ran rings round. We met her once, I think, that side of you.
These thoughts I had this morning seemed to fit in with what I read in your post here today so I thought I'd share them.
Forget the killer quips. It'll never happen and it doesn't need to. Why waster your precious energy? You need to be freer of them than that. And you deserve better. (Like me!)
One day, can we have CG 'in the round'??? Your strength is tremendous, amazing, wonderful. Your humour - well, if you can't perform by numbers, what about becoming a sit com writer??!!!! :wink: You do great warm cosy stuff, too. How many other sides of you are there? :-) Big, bold, sassy. But where's the fragile, the nervous CG??? Does she want to come out to play, too????? Or are you getting pulled in too many directions???
How you described your H putting you on display - felt just like my mother! Were you a 'trophy wife' or something, there for the pumping up of ego-by-proxy??? :wink: And you said : I get so caught up in tryin' to make sure I'm on the right ground first! but one never can because the ground keeps shifting - they're faster than we are cos they set the ground rules so they can keep shifting the goal posts before we've even realised it - n'est-ce pas????
R
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Greetings :) I will not be online for several days starting now but I noticed that post ,CG. Thanks. :)
<<Higs>> (meaning hugs??)
~Dawning
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Hi R,
If I could have just made you hear what I really said, I believed you wouldn't be feeling hurt so 'obviously' (to me) the 'hurt' was an irrelevance!
Thanks for being honest about that, R. In fact, until you put it that way, I hadn’t realized that that’s probably what I was reacting to (mom ignored me, invalidated my feelings by telling me they were not important or silly or wrong). I musta picked up on that big time and reacted - big time. :roll: My own script, I guess. Hmmm. :idea: Just discovered a new nerve. Ah, you live and learn…. {EDIT: But I also see where you're coming from. This is just my way of saying I popped a few bubbles during all this, too}
I also hadn't realised what your pm meant but I was in far too bad a place to even begin to look after other people's feelings at that time.
No problem at all. :D I sensed you were in a tough place, and that’s why I wanted to remove any doubt in case you didn’t hear from me. So no, I never expected you to be looking after me. I was looking after you :D.
It looks like you’ve been doing quite a bit of work yourself over the week, too.
And yesterday - totally different circumstances, but same 'me'! - I calmly told someone (work-related) what they had just 'done' to me and what they had been doing to me for years, and I told them I wanted it to stop. And I was only able to do that because of what happened here.
That must have felt so rewarding, R. And positive. To be able to feel a change like that. :D :D
Anyway, I’m off for the weekend, so have a great one.
Take care,
Wildflower
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But I can see how a big part of my psyche self-defense is humour. It keeps people at a safe distance.
I dunno, CG. You may need a new set o' deflectors cos your humor (and kindness) kinda drew this puppy in. :D :D (Nah, I know what you mean.)
Hey Dawning,
The official-ish (Voicelessness) definition (for the moment) of a HIG is a hippo-pig. Part warm, safe, floating CG, part...well...it seemed to make sense at the time :D. But I'm sure you've already heard of 'em, cos they're all over Japan. And the east. Not so many in NYC, though. There's a pet store a few blocks away from me and when I asked them if that had any or would be getting any soon the guy was so rude to me and started denying that they existed. Sheesh. What an N. :roll:
But yeah, HIGs make for great HUGS. And on that note...
(((((HIGS)))))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower - I woke up thinking about YOU this morning. :-) And hoping you were popping a few bubbles of your own. It's hard work, isn't it. Very painful. I'm beginning to wonder why we were made this way!!! The road to consciousness is a long and very precarious one. Why! (Existential question for the day) I used to be quite 'happy' to think that we come on this earth to 'sort some things out' and then come back to sort out some more. But I'm not so sure now. Is it worth it?!? (Existential question number two!!).
I think I'd better go before it starts getting too heavy!!!
Have a good weekend
BFN
R
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I'm not sure if this is where this should go, but I figured "healing" was the closest thing it relates to. Have you guys ever heard "Bring on the rain" a country song by Jodee Messina? I heard it this morning and could really relate to it right now. Here are the lyrics:
Another day has almost come and gone
Can't imagine what else could go wrong
Sometimes I'd like to hide away somewhere and lock the door
A single battle lost, but not the war
Cuz tomorrow's another day
And I'm thristy anyway
So bring on the rain
It's almost like the hard times circle round
A couple drops
And they all start coming down
Yeah, I might feel defeated
And I might hang my head
I might be barely breathing
But I'm not dead, no
Cuz tomorrow's another day
And I'm thristy anyway
So bring on the rain
No I'm not gonna let it get me down
I'm not gonna cry
and I'm not gonna lose any sleep tonight
Cuz tomorrow's another day
And I am not afraid
So bring on the rain
Tomorrow's another day
And I'm thristy anyway
So bring on the rain
If you haven't heard this song, it's worth a listen. I love music and the way that certain songs make me feel. Hope this helps someone..... :wink:
Love, Michelle
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I don't know, but after this, I'll just keep bein' a free radical, free floatin', bumpin' round the board. I've learned a lot here today.
Gosh, I hope this doesn’t mean the end of CG here. :cry: Just having a selfish moment I guess, because I’ve had such a nice time talking with you and hearing your stories. I’ve learned a lot from you, too. I know I get dreadfully serious sometimes, but I hope that someday I can be a little more like you in dealing with conflict (did any of those books help…would you recommend any? No need to answer, guess I can do that on my own…). Laughter really is the best medicine, hunh? :oops: :D
I don’t want to ask you to stay CG if that’s not comfortable to you, but I want you to know that (even as Guest when I first got here) your warmth, strength and humor have given me a little light that led the way through some shaky times dealing with coming to terms with my mom, and I hope I’ve been able to return that favor. But in any case, thank you.
Love and hugs and higs,
Wildflower
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(Note added later: warning, long one! :D )
Hi Wildlfower, how ya' doin'? I guess ya' feel pretty rotten huh? Us ACON's or, in my case ACOP's, go to guilt and takin' on blame pretty quickly. I'm one of those people who hear a police siren when I'm drivin' down the road and think it's for me, and I haven't even done anything wrong! :D Or they ask to check my shoppin' bag at the checkouts and I feel guilty, like they're gonna find somethin' in there. hahahahahaha. And I don't even shoplift. :D hahahahahahahah
But with this latest thing I feel/felt guilty too. Then I did a quick inventory and realised it was misplaced. I hope you can do the same.
There are lot's of things being worked out here. Sometimes I think way too many. I'm here to find my voice. And I can hear it loud and clear now, I think??? I'm expressing myself more and more and even H is recognising it, or so he says. Gettin' lots of affirmation :shock: and even 'recognition' :shock: from that department. And just as importantly, I'm picking him up very early, when he dumps a bucket, or should I say, tryies to dump a bucket of his crap (problems) on me. Now that is invaluable. I spend a whole lot less time back in showers trying to get rid of the smell. hahahahahahahahahaha
I don't know how far up or down the mountain I am in that dept compared to others here, but I do know I'm way more advanced than I ever have been in my life.
I saw voicelessness in the making yesterday. I cringed as I witnessed one of my friends relate to her 5 year old daughter. Yes I intervened, by offering to take the child for a walk, but she wouldn't come. So this scene went on for about 15 minutes, and minier versions repeated thoughout the day. Eventually the dad returned and everything settled down, but I couldn't stop thinking about that poor kid, and the poor inept mother. They've got a rocky road ahead!! I offer her books, internet sites. She's just so closed minded in this dept. Heaps of fun and open in other ways. :x It's so frustrating, because after reading here all this time I can see what she's doing :shock: and it's so obvious.
It went like this. The little girl wanted a drink. We went outise to sit for a while outside, because we'd walked for ages , had been inside at a model railroad exhibit.
Little girl starts whing, "I want a drink"
Mother, "Stop whining, you can have one when daddy gets back"
Little girl,"I want a ride on the train"
Mother, I said wait till daddy gets back"
Litle girl, "I'm tired"
Mother, "yeah, well that's cause you never stop whining"
Little Girl, "I want a drink"
(i"m butting in and offering to go buy drinks, take her for a ride etc, blaah blaah, but the litle girl won't take it from me. She only wants it from her mum.
The mother. "This could have been a really nice day if it weren't for you. Why do you always have to ruin everything everytime we got out? Whine whine whine, that's all you ever do. If you don't be quiet, we're going straight home and you're going straight to bed. You've ruined this day with your whining and now you've made me tired and all I want to do is go home to bed myself. So be quiet, stop you whining or we're going home. I was enjoying myself till you wouldn't shut-up."
I couldn't believe it. The kids only five. I had a picture in my head of the mother eventually finding a way to blame the kid for the conflict in IRAQ!!
It was bloody awful.
The kid, sort of quited somewhat, but then she got naughy. By pulling faces at other kids, and picking up rubbish bits of paper and dropping it on seats, or kicking things in her clean shoes. She was quiet from then on to her mother though. I haven't been out with them together for quite a while, but I remembered later that she's always related like this to her daughter ever since I've known them.
In their relationship the girl is supposed to wait till the mother is ready/ happy to offer her something. She's not supposed to ask for anything, it's interpreted and reflected back as putting pressure on her mother. Even for something as basic as a drink!!!! And I guess she wouldn't take one off me, cause it has to be approved by mother, who said no anyway. Oh groooaaan. It was awful to witness. And I felt completely knowing, yet totally useless.
We didn't leave right away, we stayed and saw the whole exhibit. Dhe did eventually buy the girl a drink, when she wantd one!!!!! When we went for coffee. But gee the little girl became really quite annoying and even embarrassing, opening all the sugar sachets. Then, another scene ensued!!!! Mother "Why are you always such a pain to take anywhere? I'm never taking you anywhere again!" The girl was even kicking dirt at the back of heels a couple of times. Little darling!
Anyway, long story, I know, I've lost my point now. What was it? Oh yeah. This woman is by a lot of standards a very good mother. But it doesn't help in this regard (voicelesness), and the child is only in first year of school.
It's a long one, (told ya :D )hope you had a coffee in hand :D , but I wantd to tell you what I witnessed, and how sad it was, and how sad for the little girl. They aren't going to have a good relationship when the girl is older if it doesn't change dramatically. And I can see my friend in 10 or 20 years time saying " I was a good mother!!! Why is he so difficult and selfish???"
Did I make my friend sound awfull. She's a really nice person to me, and to everyone else in our circle. And like I said, in some ways she's a very responsible, even fun mum. But when I observed this all happen I was witnessing in real time the creation of 'voicelessness'. And I was really quite tragic.
I haven't given up on getting through to her, the mother I mean. I don't give up that easy. I have managed to get through to her once or twice before on other issues. And man, it wasn't easy, but it is possible, and she did eventually appreciate it, and it was worth it because it's given us a deeper level of communication. She's not as superficial with me anymore. Scary though at the times!! :D :D My friend is a physical giant of a woman :?. Size 11 or 12 shoes, 6'3 or therabouts, works out with weights 5 early mornings a week. Over 140 IQ. Yeah, ya gotta be pretty gutsy to take her on. :D And also, she can remove your appendics at 10 paces with her tongue, it's so razor sharp.
Anyway, I thought I'd share this with you, to get back to discussing the reason why we're here, and then to ask how your 'voice' is going? :D and to say, "it's sounding good to me." :D
(((HIG x 2)))
CG
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Hi CG,
I'm one of those people who hear a police siren when I'm drivin' down the road and think it's for me, and I haven't even done anything wrong! Or they ask to check my shoppin' bag at the checkouts and I feel guilty, like they're gonna find somethin' in there. hahahahahaha. And I don't even shoplift. hahahahahahahah
So true. So true. I get anxious every time I have to exit a store that has those detectors. And for a while there, my bank card was randomly setting them off – and I’d get all flushed every time. :oops: And no, I don’t shoplift either. Can you see me? Just looking at something and thinking about it would have me punishing myself and sending myself to the corner. :roll: :D
So yeah, feeling pretty rotten about now but trying to sort it out. Good idea to get back to why we’re here.
About those detectors, though…I’m convinced they’re actually used to wipe out whatever lists you have in your head so you’ll forget why you came in the store and just randomly buy stuff you don’t need. It’s just a working theory, though. Haven’t gathered all the data. Yet.
I'm here to find my voice. And I can hear it loud and clear now, I think??? I'm expressing myself more and more and even H is recognising it, or so he says. Gettin' lots of affirmation and even 'recognition' from that department. And just as importantly, I'm picking him up very early, when he dumps a bucket, or should I say, tryies to dump a bucket of his crap (problems) on me. Now that is invaluable. I spend a whole lot less time back in showers trying to get rid of the smell. Hahahahahahahahahaha
Wow, CG!!! That’s great! So your H is actually responding positively to you and your newly strong voice? :D :D :D Yippy!!!! Hahahaha glad you’re less stinky and using less water, too. :lol:
Me, too, on the louder/clearer voice front - in weird unexpected ways. I’ve actually shocked myself a few times this past month at work when I immediately found the words I needed to say at the right time – instead of stewing or being confused and missing the moment. :shock:
I’ve always been pretty soft-spoken, but I think my real voice is actually getting louder. My poor step-grandfather used to have to hike up his hearing aid when I was over so he could hear me (though there was another theory that he often turned it off while Grandmom went blabbing on and on to no one in particular :roll: :lol: ). One day I asked him one of those little kid questions: why are you deaf? He told me it was because he ate too much pepper. Well, I believed him. And for years (until I was a teenager), I would say to myself, well, I really like pepper…so…well…I’ll just have to risk it (shake shake shake). Duh. I do NOT have an IQ of 140. I told him about it and he laughed and laughed. And he’s usually so serious. :D :D
Anyway…where was I? Right. Voice lessons. Not sure if this is voice related, but I think talking here has released a bunch of tension for me. I treated myself to a massage today, and I was told I was “soft”. I thought she was making a dig at my lack of gym time (snicker snicker), but she was commenting on how relaxed my muscles were. :shock: For years I’ve been going in looking like the hunchback of Notre Dame and coming out in pain but standing straight up at least. Maybe these toxins are finally getting expelled?? :D
But most importantly, my cat is noticeably happier and more well adjusted hahahaha. He likes my new voice, too. :D :D
"This could have been a really nice day if it weren't for you. Why do you always have to ruin everything everytime we got out? Whine whine whine, that's all you ever do. If you don't be quiet, we're going straight home and you're going straight to bed. You've ruined this day with your whining and now you've made me tired and all I want to do is go home to bed myself. So be quiet, stop you whining or we're going home. I was enjoying myself till you wouldn't shut-up."
:cry: :cry: That must be heart-breaking to watch. Just sitting here I wish I could jump in...to do what? Your idea for taking her to get a drink was a good one...have to remember that.
5 is my favorite age, too. They’re finally starting to get a handle on language and putting ideas together and being really challenging and fresh. Why was it so hard to get a drink for her? Sorry, I know you see your friend being a good mom, too, and we all have bad days, but I’m with you. To blame a child for your rotten mood? That’s gonna be a problem if their relationship doesn’t change.
That’s so interesting that she wouldn’t go with you to get a drink. Sometimes I feel so stupid for being such a homebody during all that stuff with mom, but I guess there’s a lot to say for a child needing a drink from mom, and no one else. Very symbolic. So telling, too, the way she got quiet and then started acting out. That’s gonna be a problem for the little girl in school and in her social life, too.
I’m glad you’ve been able to get through to her and that you guys are closer as a result. I wonder if she was told similar things as a kiddo. Maybe she works out 5 times a week to get the strength to get back at her parent(s)? :D She does sound a bit intimidating, though. Boy would I hate to be her shopping for shoes though. :shock: I’m fairly tall but not that tall, and I hate shopping for shoes. They all hurt anyway… :roll: :wink: {EDIT: the sexy shoes hurt, that is. not my comfy clogs, no way :d}
I’ve been thinking about the intervention thing when I notice parents being abusive with their kids, and before I wasn’t confident enough to intervene, but now…now I think about what’s been said here about having another adult invalidate bad behavior by a parent – even if it’s a brief comment from a stranger. I’ve also been thinking about becoming a Big Sister – giving a kiddo some positive feedback and playtime to add to what they’re getting at home. Do you guys have a Big Sister program over in the UK?
Thanks for your stories, (((CG))) :D
((((((((((HIGS))))))))))
Wildflower
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Oh, and forgot to ask. What's an ACOP? It's not a british comedian, is it?
WF
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ACOP. It's my own new group I've started. Adult Children of Psychopaths.
I'm the only member so far.
Bit like I'm the only member of my church that I founded a few years ago. "the Latitudinarians." Latitudinal means tolerates a lot of variety of opinions and beliefs. But even though we're only small, (I won't let my husband join 'cause he hates moslems and sikhs, and hindu's. He's learnt to become okay with the jews, buddhists and taoists though. He's getting there, nearly ready.
But hey, even though I'm the only member, and the preacher too, it's HUGE. I've got churches all over the world. True. I've claimed every church in existence actually :wink: and now they all belongs to us Latitudinarians. Anywhere we go, we've a house of worship. hahahahahahahah
I think the big brother and sister program is excellent. The buddy system. You'd get a lot out of it too, I'm sure. And you've got so much to give. Way more than Astor can use. hahahah If more women got involved then people would be gamer. ( a lot of fear out there about peadophilia and rightfully so, got some new stats throught the other night and I still haven't recovered) :x I'm so shocked and angry at how it's on the increase even more. Bloody politicians sittin' on there arses, half of them. I'm not waiting for them, I'm agitating in my own way. Sending off heaps of E-mails and letters. Why do I have to do these bloody books?????? Oh well, I've made good progress and will be finished soon. :D How do you eat an elephant? A bite at a time. :D
(((HIG)))
CG
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Hi CG,
Okay, icky stuff first...
If more women got involved then people would be gamer. ( a lot of fear out there about peadophilia and rightfully so, got some new stats throught the other night and I still haven't recovered)
:shock: That thought hadn’t even crossed my mind. The way it works here is that Big Sisters can only work with young girls and Big Brothers can only work with young boys. Geez, it never occurred to me to worry about the safety (at least, to that extreme) of these poor kids who need support. I don’t really have words – at all – to describe how angry it makes me to think of people taking advantage of kids who are already suffering – if only in the sense that they need more time with a mentor figure because of working parents. Seeing red right now. :evil: :evil: :evil: What kind of research are you finding? Any of it on the web?
ACOP. It's my own new group I've started. Adult Children of Psychopaths.
I'm the only member so far.
I think there might be a few others on this board who’d like to sign up. Do BIL’s count? I guess then it’d be ABILOP. Or ABILOS for the sociopath.
Bit like I'm the only member of my church that I founded a few years ago. "the Latitudinarians." Latitudinal means tolerates a lot of variety of opinions and beliefs.
But hey, even though I'm the only member, and the preacher too, it's HUGE. I've got churches all over the world. True. I've claimed every church in existence actually and now they all belongs to us Latitudinarians. Anywhere we go, we've a house of worship. hahahahahahahah
I bet the preacher has great sermons :D. Do you have any kind of baptism thingy that washes away all the closed-mindedness? I think I could use a little o’ that, but I’m getting there. I just keep watching Harold and Maude… Have you seen that? I keep wondering if it falls in the too violent category – because the kid kinda torments his raging Nmom (good revenge movie, though).
I was thinking about how you can’t watch violent movies, and I finally realized that I have similar reactions to movies like Dangerous Liasons. A couple of my friends LOVE it, and one day I asked one of them why, and she said she liked the honesty – about how people aren’t always nice to each other. I think I can’t watch movies like that. Where people are manipulative and horribly mean. My movie Achilles heal, I guess.
Good luck with the elephant platter. Is that work stuff or here stuff?
(((HIG)))
Wildflower
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What kind of research are you finding? Any of it on the web?
Wildflower
Hi Wildflower,
The World Health Organisation commissioned a study and a whole bunch of hospitals participated, including one near where I live.
The result of the study is available at
www.who.int/health.topics/en/
In the alphabetical index go to 'C' and locate 'Child Abuse'. You can download the complete report.
The 2002 World Report on Violence and Health concluded:-
"at least 8% of males and 25% of females up to 18 years of age experience sexual abuse of some kind."
At our participating hospital, the female numbers were 27% but the numbers averaged out to across the board to 25%. The numbers not varying much from the participating countries. :shock:
Staggering isn't it?
If this isn't an epidemic, then I don't know what is!!!!
CG
PS, I might post this as a new topic too.
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Okay, so that one didn't work.
Try, www.who.int/health_topics/child_abuse/en/
Fingers crossed
CG
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Hey CG,
Just a short one for now because I'm having trouble processing this. :evil:
Have you thought at all about working with abused kids? I bet you could provide a lot of hope, experience, and warmth to these kids.
(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower,
I see you're on the board, so I antd to say :D :D :D . and how ya' doin'?
Didn't get to read through your post over there on Portia's thread, but I'll get to it. So anyway, as I was saying, how ya' doin'?
I don't think I could work with abused kids, 'cause I get way too hostile and emotional. Ive got friends who do, and it very demanding, and you need to be able to shut-off, when you come home to your own family. I think I would find that too hard to do. I do try to do my bit at times, like creating awareness in places where I think the more influential and level-headed should and can have an impact. That's why I send E-mails and that sort of thing. And donate. I'm pretty big on donating where I can.
And in my own circles, I try my best. Like with my friend, you know the tall one. I had a chat with her yesterday. That was good. I told her about a book I read about not shouting or spanking, and she asked a few meaningful questions. Slowly slowly though. :D I bought it for my H to read, but he hasn't read it yet, just parts. he got most of the info from me anyway. He's on-side now though on the issue, so that's good.
(((HIGS))) and take care,
CG
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Howdy CG :D :D :D
I'm doin' good. Went to a party tonight hosted by one of my friends and I actually had a blast talking with a bunch of people I'd never met. :shock: :shock: :shock: What's going on??? :D :D
How are you? How's all that work goin? How many bites of the elephant have you taken? Have you ever been to Neptune? Want me to keep asking questions? :D :D :D
I can see what you mean about getting too involved and taking it home if you worked with abused kids. A friend of mine used to work for a crisis hotline and yeah, it was pretty wearing for her. She loved it, but I could also tell how tired it made her. She'd get droopy when she talked about it - which she couldn't do much of, of course. Privacy and all that.
Maybe I'll sniff around to figure out if there are some ways I can help out around here. I'm really big on putting stuff back into the community - and there are lots of needs in mine. Hmmm.
That's great that you had a chat with your tall friend. Very promising that she asked questions and you were able to recommend a book. Wow, you and your H really are talking. :D That's great. One piece at a time, hunh?
(((HIGASAURUS)))
Wildflower
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(((HIGASAURUS)))
Wildflower
hahahahahahahahahah love it hahahahahahahaha
I actually think you should think about the sisters programme some more. Imagine if you had of had that. One person can make such a difference to one child'd life.
(((Higapigasaurausus))) imagine what that woul look like :shock:
CG
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Hi CG,
Imagine if you had of had that. One person can make such a difference to one child'd life.
Yeah. I've been thinking about this for a long, long time. Getting emotionally ready, I think. I said before that it hadn't occurred to me to worry about a kid's safety in terms of sexual abuse, but it has occurred to me to worry about being abusive instead of helpful to a kid I want to support. Another way of saying I wanted to make sure I could end my own cycle and not pass it on to kids in need.
But I trust myself more now, thanks to this board. And from hearing people talk, and from getting to the bottom of what stunk about growing up without a voice, I think I really could offer another kid the kind of support they need - to just be a kid. And yeah, I think I'd get a lot out of it, too (give me a good excuse to do all the kid stuff I'm technically too old to do hahahaha :D).
Higapigasaurausus
(now that's some quote!)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
This is your brain...
dum de dum de do da bob ta boom ba la
This is your brain trying to imagine what a Higapigasaurausus looks like...
POP. PFFFFT. BOING.
Love and hugs and a Higapigasaurausus farm. And another hug.
Wildflower
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And yeah, I think I'd get a lot out of it, too (give me a good excuse to do all the kid stuff I'm technically too old to do hahahaha :D).
Hey, maybe you could big sister a wee little tiny up-and coming cheerleader. Hey, hahahahahaha, maybe you could big sister her whole frickin' team. Wwhhoooaaaa!!!! :D :D Now wouldn't that be wild.
Higapigasaurausus
Okay, let's give her a life. How about a little flower on top of her head, and a hawain (spell check please) skirt.
Or a business suit and briefcase and rolex. 'Cause she's one empowered little higapigasaurausus.
No, well then how about leathers and a motorbike.
Still no, okay, one more try, then what about a nose and brow and tail ring. hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah.
Remember, there's only one of her. She's unique and she knows it.
((((HIGS))))
CG
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Hey, maybe you could big sister a wee little tiny up-and coming cheerleader. Hey, hahahahahaha, maybe you could big sister her whole frickin' team. Wwhhoooaaaa!!!! Now wouldn't that be wild.
Don't go thinkin I haven't already been thinkin about that thought...
BWAHAHahahaha.....
( :shock: who said that?)
Okay, let's give her a life.
That's a darn good idea. She could be our healing mascot. Though that would kinda be using her wouldn't it? Hmmm. Our healing role model?
How about a little flower on top of her head, and a hawain (spell check please) skirt.
You know who this reminds me of?? Have you ever heard of George and Martha? The two friendly hippos?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0395851580/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-0314915-5473560#reader-page
(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
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I love George and Martha. Even George's yellow front tooth.
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Me, too. They're such cool stories. :D
Are you okay, CG?
((((CG))))
WF
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Hi Wildflower,
Yeah, I'm fine, really. I'm still trying to get these books done, and my focus button isn't behaving. I'm blaming your compliments thread. hahahahahahahh. No. Just kidding. :D
But I know I'm more a giver, but not a good accepter in that department. I think it's to do with the feeling of being set up that I auto-react to. And I've been mulling :? :? where that comes from?????
Childhood issues of course. Yes I've adjustd and trained myslf to just say thankyou. But that's because I've learned it draws attention to a deficiency in me if I do otherwise.
I have a very clear picture of cgilhood issues re mother on this topic.
Here's a small simple example.
Mother wants me to make her a cup of tea. She was a terribly the lazy bitch. Instead of saying, "Would you mind making me a cup of tea?" Giving me a choice, it would go more like this, "You're such a good girl, go and make me a cup tea, would you. Show mummy you love her, and that you're a such good daughter." or "You know what a good daughter would do, make their mummy a cup of tea. You want me to think you're a good daughter don't you?"
If I dared say "no" or "wait", she'd fly into some ungodly rage and tell me what a selfish little bitch I was, and then I'd hear afinancial report on how much I cost in food and shelter, and now, how could I be so cruel, I'd even caused her to get a headache, and she'd have to stay in bed all day.
If I still refused (not likely to happen very often) , but say I was running late, on my way out the door to school, she'd be screaming from the bedroom, "Don't bother coming home if a cup of tea isn't in here by the count of 10."
Pathetic isn't it.
Anyway, I'm not getting hung up on it too much. But then there's the other side. "How do I look today, tell me how nice I look? What's wrong with you, why won't you tell me? Are you jealous? You're jealous aren't you. You can't stand having an attractive mother. Why you little cow. blaaah blaah blaah." Compliments and the need she had for them caused so much conflict, that I have a negative reaction to compliments. Quite understandable really.
My auto-thought goes, "Why, are you complimenting me? What do you want 'REALLY' want from me?" It seems to spring into view pretty quickly.
Kids are pretty honest. They rarely compliment. What does this say?
Okay that's enough from me, and I'm not even in the right thread I guess. I'm roaming and raving, but I thought about it a lot, in light of the Imposter Syndrome thing. I still haven't reconciled that part of me. But I've read a lot recently about talented and gifted children, the transcending child etc. And I've been trying to get it all sorted out in my head, particulary in the way I compliment and relate re this with my kids.
It's a very important aspect of healthy development. Genuine and consistant praise. Otherwise they can begin to feel phoney, which is tragic. It can stay, as a monkey on their backs their whole lives. And make them resentful, and even blind to the necessary constructive criticisms that will invariably appear throughout life.
I've been practising new techniques with a little success. I'm reading and learning hahahahahahahah when I'm supposed to be working on these damn books. Have you done anet search or read on the "Transcending Child"? It's me. I escaped the poverty cycle and in some ways, and by my childhood family's standards I've become quite successful.
All these problems from mother drove me, and I was determined not to be financially or emotioanlly dependant on anybody, ever again, I think????? The emotional one took longer, but I'm feeling pretty good in that department nowadays. :D :D :D I almost can't believe I can say that, and know it's true. :D :D :D
(((((HIGS))))) from a very happy higapigasaurauras
CG
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Hi CG,
Hope you've got the coffee, the comfy spot, and the time 'cos this is a long one. :D (Take your time, though. :D I’m getting behind in work and home stuff, too. :oops: :roll: Gotta start showing a little more restraint here, too. This board is just too good sometimes - so hard to be disciplined :roll: :D.)
It's a very important aspect of healthy development. Genuine and consistant praise. Otherwise they can begin to feel phoney, which is tragic. It can stay, as a monkey on their backs their whole lives. And make them resentful, and even blind to the necessary constructive criticisms that will invariably appear throughout life.
I've been practising new techniques with a little success. I'm reading and learning hahahahahahahah when I'm supposed to be working on these damn books.
Lately, I keep coming back to this one thought when it comes to parenting – especially when I think about you and the other mothers on the board. How much did we want our parents to finally understand, to finally love us unconditionally, to finally apologize? I mean, here we are as adults, some of us still wishing things could be better. Wishing we were wrong about our parents. I can imagine that you may not feel that way about your mother because she was so extreme. I dunno. But I hear how much you want to give to your children, and I hear you wanting to adjust and learn new parenting skills, and that makes me think your kids really are in loving, safe hands.
Children, and adults, are resilient. I feel that my life has been restored recently - that I really have found myself again. That just sounds like such a cheesy cliché, but it’s how I feel. I’m still a little messed up in some ways, but who isn’t?
But what I’m thinking now is that I’ve always been here, I was just hiding under layers and layers of protection. I’ve had to remove those layers myself, but how cool and wonderful would it have been to have my own parents ‘figure it out’ along the way and remove those layers for me while I was still dependent on them. What if they had worked to earn my trust again? Worked to build up my own faith in myself? Not in who they wanted me to be, but who I already was? What if they had decided to put their efforts into loving me – all of me – unconditionally? I would have healed, that's what. And think how much faster I could have healed if it had been my parents instead of therapists and books and patient but confused friends.
I guess what I’m thinking is that this damage doesn’t have to be permanent.
My therapist said things are easier/simpler for me now because I’m not protecting myself. In a way, I’m protecting myself by taking care of myself and getting out of bad situations. But I think what she was saying is that I’m no longer protecting my SELF by twisting into some sort of creature designed to survive a bad environment.
I’ve thought a bunch about consistency, too. I’ve tended to think that consistency is the basis of stability, and therefore safety. I guess if you’re consistently abusive, though, that’s still – abusive. Still, it's important to know that you can count on your parents to not go around putting reality in the blender every five minutes. :roll:
Mother wants me to make her a cup of tea. She was a terribly the lazy bitch. Instead of saying, "Would you mind making me a cup of tea?" Giving me a choice, it would go more like this, "You're such a good girl, go and make me a cup tea, would you. Show mummy you love her, and that you're a such good daughter." or "You know what a good daughter would do, make their mummy a cup of tea. You want me to think you're a good daughter don't you?"
If I dared say "no" or "wait", she'd fly into some ungodly rage and tell me what a selfish little bitch I was, and then I'd hear afinancial report on how much I cost in food and shelter, and now, how could I be so cruel, I'd even caused her to get a headache, and she'd have to stay in bed all day.
I know you said you weren’t hung up on this, but I read this and got stuck on the “giving me a choice” part. My mother used to ask me questions that made me think she was giving me a choice, but she never was. It was always just a power game.
Mom: “I don’t feel like going out to get food tonight. Want to get a pizza? If you order, I’ll pay.”
Me: “Sure. What’s the number?” [If no, see "scrounge" option below]
Mom: “It’s in the phone book.”
Me: “Where’s the phone book?”
Mom: “Oh, it’s around. I’ll look for it in a minute."
At which point she’d just sit on the couch watching TV indefinitely. If I asked her about the phone book again, she’d accuse me of nagging and she’d lose interest in the pizza, and I’d have to “scrounge up something to eat.” So inevitably, I’d have to go on a phone book hunt, careful not to trip any of her “you’re interfering with my space” wires. :roll: It sounds like your mom was playing power games with you, too - on top of mixing in the compliments BS.
But then there's the other side. "How do I look today, tell me how nice I look? What's wrong with you, why won't you tell me? Are you jealous? You're jealous aren't you. You can't stand having an attractive mother. Why you little cow. blaaah blaah blaah." Compliments and the need she had for them caused so much conflict, that I have a negative reaction to compliments. Quite understandable really.
I wondered about this the first time you mentioned that your mom was always fishing for compliments about her appearance. There’s just so much in there in terms of messed up messages. She needed your endless approval. She told you that you were jealous and thought all these bad things about your mom.
:idea: Geez. Again. I really think that by telling your child they hate you/don’t love you (blah blah blah), you’re really just protecting yourself from hearing it straight from them on the one hand, and on the other, you’re stuffing a big sock in their mouths when it comes to getting at their REAL feelings. The kid is forced to think, no, I don’t hate you because I’m a good kid. Or, I hate you and that makes me bad but I’d rather be bad than love you. Instead of, I hate you because you treat me really badly and I know it deep down inside.
Whew. Where’d that come from? :shock:
Have you done anet search or read on the "Transcending Child"? It's me. I escaped the poverty cycle and in some ways, and by my childhood family's standards I've become quite successful.
I did a search but I didn’t come up with much. Is there an author who talks about this? I’ve just started reading Jung this week, by the way. :D And what are these books you’re reading about parenting? Anything you’d recommend?
Good luck with your book work miss higapigasaurauras. :D So glad to hear you’re happy and feeling good :D :D :D.
(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower,
I just did a net check to make sure it works. hahahah
Search for a Lillian Rubin
You'll find articles on "The Man With The Beautiful Voice." That's her.
She's written a few books. But her most recent one being "The Transcendant Child."
www.salon.com/weekly/shrink also has articles on her which are an interesting read. One is titled "The Transcendant Shrink." It's well worth a read too.
(((HIGS))) and I'll be back later. I wanted to say something re- your post sparked a thought.
CG
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PS
Right, I just tried it and it looks like the page has been moved. Click on that option that'll take you to the salon, then in the search box, plug in Lillian Rubin. You'll see all the articles by/about her.
Fingers crossed that it works for you. :D
CG
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Hi Wildflower,
I'm following your lead and getting out more. All this discussion and feedback. Takin' it for a test drive, so to speak, with some interesting results.
My therapist said things are easier/simpler for me now because I’m not protecting myself. In a way, I’m protecting myself by taking care of myself and getting out of bad situations. But I think what she was saying is that I’m no longer protecting my SELF by twisting into some sort of creature designed to survive a bad environment.
Long story about an unpleasant conversation I had yesterday with a friend. I came home and stewed, vented even to my husband and then to a mutual friend. This actaully is new for me cause I've had this 'thing' my whole life about NOT talkin' about people behind their back's. I could never do it. And if I did I would be so guilty I would go and tell them and apologise. It's been a real biggee for me to get over. It made me a very reliable friend, people know I don't gossip generally, I just say nothing or absent myself. Sometimes it's not healthy, well it wasn't in me anyway, it was too strong a principle rooted in fear and ignorance. They're always scarey and dangerous, those types of principles. And a legacy of guess who? Remember the orphanage story, cause I talked about her once to someone blaah blaaah.
So I don't do it, talk about people to others at all usually, which I've recently learned, has often been to my own detriment at times. Sometimes we have to. Especially if someone has hurt us, and we don't know why. This friend hurt me, in front of 2 other friends. I couldn't work out if she realised she had, had done it on purpose, or why? I fumed some more. Was getting nowhere. Then in bed I tossed and turned it over and around and upside down and came to some really spoooooky different conclusions than I first had. I tested some theories, by speaking about it with one of our mutual friend's who was there, and freedom came. No more torment or pain or second-guessing myself. And I got out of a bad situation by dealing with it, clumsily no doubt, but straight away. That was the key. I did it pretty much straight away. I got someone elses garbage dumped on me, and it took me only about 24 hous to get rid of it all. That may seem slow for some, but for me it was an excellent result.
Still, it's important to know that you can count on your parents to not go around putting reality in the blender every five minutes. :roll:
I like this comment. I'm gonna keep it, guess where?? Come on, you know you know??? On the FRIDGE!!!!
I know you said you weren’t hung up on this, but I read this and got stuck on the “giving me a choice” part. My mother used to ask me questions that made me think she was giving me a choice, but she never was. It was always just a power game.
Mom: “I don’t feel like going out to get food tonight. Want to get a pizza? If you order, I’ll pay.”
Me: “Sure. What’s the number?” [If no, see "scrounge" option below]
Mom: “It’s in the phone book.”
Me: “Where’s the phone book?”
Mom: “Oh, it’s around. I’ll look for it in a minute."
At which point she’d just sit on the couch watching TV indefinitely. If I asked her about the phone book again, she’d accuse me of nagging and she’d lose interest in the pizza, and I’d have to “scrounge up something to eat.” So inevitably, I’d have to go on a phone book hunt, careful not to trip any of her “you’re interfering with my space” wires. :roll:
This sounds so, so, so ,so, so, I don't know??????? :( :( :( :( :(
I do, I get the picture so clearly, but my words aren't there yet. I know though, eactly what she was doing. It's like a commitment-phobic almost :? :? :? but almost, but I know the type. And it is a type. It'll come to me. I just need a bit more time, and it's annoying the crap outta me cause I've had friends just like this with their kids. :x :x :x :x :x
:idea: Geez. Again. I really think that by telling your child they hate you/don’t love you (blah blah blah), you’re really just protecting yourself from hearing it straight from them on the one hand, and on the other, you’re stuffing a big sock in their mouths when it comes to getting at their REAL feelings. The kid is forced to think, no, I don’t hate you because I’m a good kid. Or, I hate you and that makes me bad but I’d rather be bad than love you. Instead of, I hate you because you treat me really badly and I know it deep down inside.
Thinking back now, I don't think I consciously 'THOUGHT" things like love or hate words in my head about her. Maybe momentarily, occassionally. But I tend to think now that I wouldn't have been game. I remember she had me convinced she had eye's in the back of her head, she could see around corners, and that she could read minds. I felt a whole lot of fear if I thought negative things about her.
And I 'THINK' all those words which I was never game to think, just connected to my 'feelings' side. So I was very emotional and feeling and happy and smiling and funny, which meant also that I didn't draw attention to her foul parenting and I was safer behind this facade. I was safe, when she couldn't read my hatred, resentment, contempt and disgest at/with her. I really think my 'voice' didn't even make it to the thinking stage of my brain as a child. I don't know if I was ever game to think about her, and besides I was completely tuned in to survival.
I'll come back to you on the image of your mother if you don't mind. I'm gonna give it some more thought. I've found speaking to you here very helpful. I realised a few new things as I was writing. Thankyou.
from a genuinely happy higapigasauraurus
(((HIGS)))
CG
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Hi miss genuinely happy higapigasauraurus :D
Have you ever heard of Nick Drake, a musician from the 60's? I just saw a documentary of his life last night. Very interesting stuff about depression and therapy in the UK.
I'm on my way out to dance class, but I'll be back to talk more about Nick and your post...
(((HIGS))) from a pondering wildflower,
Wildflower
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Hi CG,
Once again, I admire your stance on not talking about friends behind their backs. I think that's a good quality - another one I've been working on over the years. I know what you mean, though, when it goes to far. Becomes a voice stifler, doesn't it? If you can't talk about how people are hurting you because it means talking about someone else, how can you get to the bottom of what's really going on? Of how you feel?
So that's great that you were able to talk to the mutual friend. :D :D I know that musta been hard (yes, I immediately saw the orphanage connection), but I'm glad you could do it and that you immediately felt better. Ahhhhh. Validation. Sanity restored.
For the record, it's okay to talk about friends here. I'll never tell :D. How could I? I don't know your friends. Besides...it's about thinking stuff out, right? Sounding it out?
It's so great that you were able to figure all that out so quickly, too. A day is fast, in my book. Gonna have to try to catch up to you! :D :D I've still got a week/two-week time lag going before I figure out what happened. :wink:
I do, I get the picture so clearly, but my words aren't there yet. I know though, eactly what she was doing. It's like a commitment-phobic almost
I think it's called passive-aggressive behavior. My mom was passive as hell when she wanted to be - but she still managed to keep all the control. Maddening. Made me out to be the bad guy 100% of the time. Actually, I recently read that children of abuse or people in general who grow up unable to express themselves often find release in these passive-aggressive ways. They can't express their feelings openly, so that lash out in these subtle but destructive ways. That's my mom, I think. And it was me for a while, too. But the cycle ends here.
Thinking back now, I don't think I consciously 'THOUGHT" things like love or hate words in my head about her. Maybe momentarily, occassionally. But I tend to think now that I wouldn't have been game. I remember she had me convinced she had eye's in the back of her head, she could see around corners, and that she could read minds. I felt a whole lot of fear if I thought negative things about her.
And I 'THINK' all those words which I was never game to think, just connected to my 'feelings' side. So I was very emotional and feeling and happy and smiling and funny, which meant also that I didn't draw attention to her foul parenting and I was safer behind this facade. I was safe, when she couldn't read my hatred, resentment, contempt and disgest at/with her. I really think my 'voice' didn't even make it to the thinking stage of my brain as a child. I don't know if I was ever game to think about her, and besides I was completely tuned in to survival.
This is so sad, CG. :cry: :cry: :cry: I'm sad for that little girl who wasn't allowed to even think. Who wasn't allowed to feel anything but bubbly feelings. If it makes you feel any better, I know what you mean. When my good dad left, I could still think, but ten years later, my brain was mush. No solid thoughts to be found, really - except in academics. Math. Mom was terrible in math, so I was allowed to go far in that subject. Still...it can be pretty abstract stuff. Not a lot of being down-to-earth involved.
But look at us now...talking to husbands and co-workers. Putting our thoughts down into words. How are you feeling in all this? How's your boy doing? What happened with that friend? Did you say anything to her?
Anyway...hope you're doin well floatin' around in your nice, safe higapigasauraurus pond.
(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower,
, I admire your stance on not talking about friends behind their backs. I think that's a good quality - another one I've been working on over the years.
Yes, and I think it is probably interpreted by my friends as some mature, noble, or even considerate act. But it was coming from my own fears and denial. It was/is a way of protecting myself from any self-conceived paranoid reactions of an unpleasant fall-out that maybe I wouldn't be able to control. So in the end it becomes a control issue I have, doesn't it????
Very interesting. :D :D And not very mature, is it?? hahahahha :D
Add to that, it's a case of even a fool can appear or seem intelligent if he keeps his mouth shut. So often fear of not being in control retards my advancement and growth. If I only ever do things I know we can control the outcome of, I'll end up living in a very little world, I think. And I'll end up dreaming a lot, but never achieving anything I want to.
"Thankyou folks. That sermon was bought to you today from 'The Church Of The Latitudinarians.' Tune in tomorrow to hear more on the topic of 'When you try to control others, the only person you really end up controlling is you."
hahahahahahahahahaaaaahahahahahhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaheeeeee
I know what you mean, though, when it goes to far. Becomes a voice stifler, doesn't it? If you can't talk about how people are hurting you because it means talking about someone else, how can you get to the bottom of what's really going on? Of how you feel?
Precisely!! :D :D
So that's great that you were able to talk to the mutual friend. :D :D I know that musta been hard
Yeah, it was, I was shaking and stammering, and red-faced in a way that almost I couldn't even believe!! :shock: :shock:
A funny contradiction here. I talked about it later with my husband and opened myself up for his observations. I asked him to be frank with me, (OOOHH, Frank, :D who's Frank hahahahah) and so we discussed how I'm not insecure at all addressing such issues in the workplace. I am quite bold and confident in the workplace. :D I guess that's because there are defined parameters and a certain amount of protection and whole bunch of rules that both sides have to abide by. So, I find I have no fear in that context, and over the years have had to deal with some pretty heavy issues. A for instance, a sexual harrassment issue a few years ago which led to the guy getting the sack. Anonymous threats were fed back to me, and strangely enough, they didn't frighten or silence me or keep from speaking up or make me stay at home. :D
My fear and anxiety only seems to apply in personal situations. :?
And you can see I don't seem to be suffering any particular anxiety here on this forum either. hahahahahaahahahah :D :D Take my last couple of posts to 'others'. hahahahahahahahahah. Just speakin' my mind quite comfortably, expressin' ma' suspicions. Nobody else has to agree with me so it really doesn't worry me what responses come back. I'ts taken on a kinda ???? context in my brain, this place. :D :D :D
I just mainly keep comin' back to talk to you, :D :D :D and Portia of course. Is that selfish of me??????? Gee, totallllly coooool, I'm learning to be selfish. :D :D :D :D :D hahahahahaha
(For the record, it's okay to talk about friends here. I'll never tell :D.
hahahahahahahahaahahah. Thanks :D :D
Besides...it's about thinking stuff out, right? Sounding it out?
It really is, other people can bring out things I could never have thought of. My friend didn't poo-poo me at all. Actually, she affirmed me, and mentioned a couple of other times she'd noticed our mutual friend say very hurtful things that she thought I hadn't noticed at the time. I had though. :cry: :cry: :cry: I'd just never said anything.
It's so great that you were able to figure all that out so quickly, too. A day is fast, in my book. Gonna have to try to catch up to you! :D :D I've still got a week/two-week time lag going before I figure out what happened. :wink:
I'm sure I'll still have slow starts in the future too. hahahahah This is new to me.
I do, I get the picture so clearly, but my words aren't there yet. I know though, eactly what she was doing. It's like a commitment-phobic almost
I think it's called passive-aggressive behavior. My mom was passive as hell when she wanted to be - but she still managed to keep all the control. Maddening. Made me out to be the bad guy 100% of the time. Actually, I recently read that children of abuse or people in general who grow up unable to express themselves often find release in these passive-aggressive ways. They can't express their feelings openly, so that lash out in these subtle but destructive ways. That's my mom, I think. And it was me for a while, too. But the cycle ends here.
Yeah, good on you. :D That's called 'taking responsibility' or 'rejecting the denial & blame mentality'. I love it. It's so so so so so, ooooooh, liberating. You know, your mum reminds me so much of a distracted person. Someone with a whole house full of half finished projects and hobbies. Someone lacking focus. Yes, I agree with the passive-aggressive, definitely. They are a strange creature, aren't they? They seem so, so, so, so, what
s the word???? They seem so lazy. It's really confusing. I was married to one of those for a while. It was bloody awful. So draining and dare I say, EMBARRASSING. :oops: He had such a failure mentality. WHoooa. Now, do you know what effect that had. It was expensive, exhausting, draining and infuriating. Frustrating, is just way too much of an understatement. And the put-downs he could create which would have me believing I was the problem were so well crafted. it's taken me years to dispel some of those myths. Yet, and I hesitiate to say this, because it's seems so contradictory, he is a really nice guy. But, the energy he would invest in his pet-projects and hobbies. And what a "Don't Touch" mentality. When I think back, I laugh. How can you live in the same house and not touch the record-player, or the records. Maddening!!!! :D :D I'd want to clear the table to set it for dinner, and couldn't cause his last 'hobby would be spread out all over it. I wasn't game to touch anything.
thinking stage of my brain as a child. I don't know if I was ever game to think about her, and besides I was completely tuned in to survival.
When my good dad left, I could still think, but ten years later, my brain was mush. No solid thoughts to be found, really - except in academics. Math. Mom was terrible in math, so I was allowed to go far in that subject. Still...it can be pretty abstract stuff. Not a lot of being down-to-earth involved.
But look at us now...talking to husbands and co-workers. Putting our thoughts down into words. How are you feeling in all this? How's your boy doing? What happened with that friend? Did you say anything to her?
Can you tell me what you meant when you said "Not a lot of being down-to-earth involved." Is this related to the protective layers or ambitions or something else?
My son (the one who was electrocuted you mean) is really really well. He just got his driver's license and bought a new car. Scarey stuff. Now he's got big re-paymnets hanging over his head each month. I don't agree with going into debt for depreciating assets, but oh well, what can I say. I remember how I was at his age. He wouldn't listen to his old mummy and buy a bomb first time round. :D :D :D No, a top of the line bright red ute with black interior.
I really don't care, so long as he drives carefully. ("Please drive carefully son" prayer going up and out now. That's what I really worry about. But I've found he's pretty responsible for his age, and usually listens to me. He's surprised me many times with sensitive, listening responses to my comments. So hopefully he's listened to me about not speeding
Anyway...hope you're doin well floatin' around in your nice, safe higapigasauraurus pond.
Yeees :D Thankyou.
Hey, you said you were off to dance classes. How fantastic :D :D . I lack feet-beat. It's so bad. I love to dance, but I'm shocking and dreadfully uncoordinated. It's a comedy to watch :shock: I find I'm the same with aerobics to music. They have to put me at the back of the class, 'cause I throw everybody else off. I'm always about 3 beats behind everyone else. very confusing for the class. I've even managed to throw the instructor off acouple of times. She's avoided looking at me since then
since then. hahahahahahaahah
Take care outta der' amonk dem' english
((((3 BIG HIGS from a happy HIGAPIGASAUAURUS))))
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Hi Wildflower, me again, 2 posts in one day. Whoooah, haven't done that in a while on this thread. I've been behaving myself and staying out of people's hair. But can I say to you I was reading a thread today, and truly, the skin crawled on the back of my neck and I got goose-bumps. It freaked me out. Must be my paranoia. hahahahahah I won't say which one cause and I certainly wouldn't want to upset any princesses, but oh my gosh!!! It was freeeaakky. Personally, I don't think they're just out there :shock:. Scarey.
But anyway, that's gossip an it's not why I posted. I posted to try to give you a good web-site. This is one that Rosencrantz posted here ages ago about passsive-agressives. Fingers crossed and here goes.
http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html
Now I'll post this to you and try it to see if I got it right this time. hahahahahah, Not bloody likely, first time.
Just call me the 'Failed Web Page' poster.
CG
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PPS
Post, take 3.
and yes, Bingo, the web-page worked. :D Hip Hip Hooray.
(((((HIGS and double HIGS))))
Funny, I just knew I knew your mother. I think we were even married once, for a short time. :shock: :shock:
That must make me your ex-step-mother. hahahahahahahahahah.
CG
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Hiya CG and Wildflower. Love the image of floating in the pond. If it’s muddy and dirty, so much the better. Maybe I could come and wallow in it (no funny business though, well, alright, if you insist)? Thanks for your reply on the funny thread CG….I’m wondering how to tell you that I’m the testosterone-fuelled one in our house! Too much yin I’ve been told. So, oh yes, I got an email today (sent on 2 may but only just arrived with me in hotmail???) from a friend who’s been gone a while and I quote: “If you can, would you leave a message for CG sometime - ask her to check her alterego's private message box sometime. I'd appreciate that.” Now I’m not asking any questions or making any points or anything…..I’m just passing on something I got in email okay! (emoticon: hands palms upwards, beseeching, don’t shoot the messenger). And to the one who sent me the email….thank you….I passed the message on, good luck and you sound good! Excellent! I’m going now to go and try and buy myself some clothes – ha ha ha ha! Fanciful ideas of floaty summer dresses…will no doubt return with baggy size 20 cargo pants. V-e-r-y s-e-x-y.(not) P
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I’m going now to go and try and buy myself some clothes –
Good luck with that, P. You inspire me. I am still wearing the same two skirts and one pair of pants since last October. Yikes!!
Btw, I am just getting into this thread (the last page anyway)....alot going on here. :)
~D.
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Hiya D! yep, still here...going now, but:
I am still wearing the same two skirts and one pair of pants since last October. Yikes!!
You last bought clothes in October? I last bought a year ago (3 hours in one shop = 5 items). It's a major job. I just don't buy clothes. I saw your para about not buying clothes and food elsewhere. Do you mind if I put it here?:
while I am fine working, vacationing, sleeping and using my computer for various reasons ....I have found it difficult to do other important things like go shopping for food and clothes. I am paying my bills, filing taxes, stuff like that. Only been like this since the end of March so been thinking it is a necessary phase and one I'm getting over as we now speak. But I have felt in a rut for a bit longer (as in can't decide how to go about getting what I want, questioning what I want so what I want changes all the time.........blech.)
I just saw that you fulfil all your responsibilities to the outside world, but presumably the food and clothes are just for you? So maybe you don't feel worthy of the effort? (This is me.) I bet you make sure you buy cat food though? I have a very hard time just buying standard stuff just for me - like special olives which other half won't eat. I have a hard time justifying any expense if it's just for me. You? (I am going now.... :wink: ) P
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Hi Wildflower,
Bought this up top just in case you missed it. Or maybe you already have this site. Probably, I'm always behind the times. hahahahahah.
But anyway, just on the off-chance that it was too far behind for you to catch. Especially after my posting marathon here yesterday. :D
No worries if you already saw it, it's just me doing 'follow-up'. hahaha
Hi Wildflower, me again, 2 posts in one day. Whoooah, haven't done that in a while on this thread (d)
I posted to try to give you a good web-site. This is one that Rosencrantz posted here ages ago about passsive-agressives. Fingers crossed and here goes.
http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html
Now I'll post this to you and try it to see if I got it right this time. hahahahahah, Not bloody likely, first time.
Just call me the 'Failed Web Page' poster.
CG
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Hi CG,
I got it. I looked at it. And my eyes went :shock: :shock: :shock: .
That's my mom. And your ex? That's my mom, too. Hobbies all over the place. The kitchen was a lab. The bathroom was a smaller lab. The closets were crammed with hobby stuff. The garage was crammed with hobby stuff. Unfinished projects everywhere. People offering to buy things. Mom not wanting to go through the trouble of selling all her stuff. Happier to talk about it and do nothing. :shock:
She made me late for school every day because she needed to finish putting on her make-up. I got used to it. Even defended it. Believed I wanted to be late. Carried that over into my adult life. :shock:
I'm angry right now. Very angry. Feeling very betrayed. Every time I picture that poor girl getting beat up ... because she was already hurting ... I can hardly breathe I'm so angry. Correction. Every time I allow myself to realize - that was ME she was beating up. That was ME who was already hurting. That was ME she abandoned to my father. I GASP FOR AIR. I'm sooooooo angry.
I love her because she's my mother. But I hate her right now, too.
Wildflower
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Hey CG,
Feeling a bit better now. Really need to get a punching bag in my apartment I think :wink: .
I just came back to say, just in case, that it wasn't the article that upset me. It was shocking how much applies to her, and that's definitely given me a new path to follow, so thanks.
But, it's what mom said that upset me. It was small in a way, but it was the last straw. I kept backing away from that anger at her...heal...back away...heal...back away. Well, it dawned on me how maddening it must have felt to be there, being shoved down. How maddening it was to be dealling with all these things that were so beyond my control - and then be shoved down. To have my feelings denied, to be ridiculed for who I was, for struggling, for being confused, for being a kid. For sneezing??? :roll: And there it was...a whole big pocket o' anger.
Can you tell me what you meant when you said "Not a lot of being down-to-earth involved." Is this related to the protective layers or ambitions or something else?
Yeah, I think this was related to the protective layers. Math (and some science) was abstract. True/False. The function resolved or it didn't. There was some funky cool stuff in higher math - even got as far as Chaos Theory! (Ironic? Never thought about it that way). But...no messy human stuff. No messy life stuff. Just functions. And answers. No passive-aggressive functions. No hostile variables. No shifting answers. It was an escape.
Yeah, there was some ambition there at times, but not too much. I was told I was good (and not living up to my potential of course), and there were times when I thought I might be a great mathematician some day. But then I got to college and with the help of a german professor, I discovered architecture and history and sociology. But you know what? I couldn't handle the open-endedness of those subjects for a long long time. And you know what else? I had MAJOR writer's block for years. I couldn't write. Now I look back and think, wow. That was some major voicelessness.
And while I'm rambling, would you believe that when I was in my first year of college, I told my mom as if it was the weirdest thing in the world,"People listen to me here." I wasn't being mean or hostile. I was really sharing it with her like, wow, isn't that bizarre? What's with people here? They listen...as if I actually have something to say. I so didn't get it, did I?
Anyway...I'm off. Time to clean up the cooking (distraction) mess I made in the kitchen tonight.
(((BIG HIGS))) on a lily pad
Wildflower
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Hi Dawning,
Good luck with that, P. You inspire me. I am still wearing the same two skirts and one pair of pants since last October. Yikes!!
Btw, I am just getting into this thread (the last page anyway)....alot going on here.
Welcome to the healing pond :D. It's a bit muddy and messy at times, but it's a nice hangout. :D
Clothes are tough, aren't they?? It's about finding our voice in clothing, hunh? (Good thing voicelessness here doesn't translate into...no clothes! :shock: :D )
I think Portia's right, too, that it's about spening money on US. Getting something I like - just because I like it. No other reason. No justification. No guilt. Getting something that makes ME happy. Even if it's not about money - doing something that's only for US.
Are you on lunch break yet? :D
((HIGS))
Wildflower
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CG, you’ve rubbed off on me. My fourth post in a row. :shock:
You know…it wasn’t just what mom said that upset me. It wasn’t just a last straw. I got into an argument with one of my closest friends today because his response to my reaction to my talk with mom yesterday was “That’s just the way she is.” I got more from him along the lines of telling me to let it go and move on. I want to, that’s my goal. I don’t want to be stuck here. But I’m afraid I have to go through this.
Then, after a while of talking it out with him, I realized that he was really balking at the idea of blaming my mom for anything because, in his eyes, she’s sick. It’s troubling to him to blame someone who’s sick. Well, I feel the same way. I get defensive about my uncle with schizophrenia. It upsets me when my mom says bad things about him. So I asked my friend if that’s how he felt and he said it was (look at me…I’m so used to being silenced that I assumed he was doing that to me, instead of having his own reactions to this yucky situation).
So then, trying to understand his point of view, I thought about my uncle and his daughter. I thought about how I'd respond to her if she came to me blaming my uncle and upset with him and talking about how hard it was to grow up with him. (We were very close when she was young, before he was diagnosed. She's eight years younger than me and I used to carry her around with me everywhere.) I know it must have been so incredibly hard for her, and even though I wouldn’t blame my uncle for his sickness, I’d understand, empathize, hear her side of the story. It would be okay for her to rage and blame and hate.
And then … I’m not so far removed from my cousin. Her uncle, my mother. My cousin and I…growing up with mentally ill parents. Her dad diagnosed and on medication (when he takes it). My mom on the brink, undiagnosed, on medication (self-prescribed). Somehow, mentally giving my cousin permission to rage against her father – even though he was sick and couldn’t help it – opened a valve for me. It finally gave me permission to rage. And to finally rage in the right direction. Not at friends, not at the world, not at myself – but at the situation I grew up in.
It sucked. It really happened. It happened to me. I survived. Survival cost me my voice. Rejoining life and my voice will cost me my false survival strategies.
Somebody send me to bed!!!
Wildflower
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Can you tell me what you meant when you said "Not a lot of being down-to-earth involved." Is this related to the protective layers or ambitions or something else?
Yeah, I think this was related to the protective layers. Math (and some science) was abstract. True/False. The function resolved or it didn't. There was some funky cool stuff in higher math - even got as far as Chaos Theory! (Ironic? Never thought about it that way). But...no messy human stuff. No messy life stuff. Just functions. And answers. No passive-aggressive functions. No hostile variables. No shifting answers. It was an escape.
Yeah, there was some ambition there at times, but not too much. I was told I was good (and not living up to my potential of course), and there were times when I thought I might be a great mathematician some day. But then I got to college and with the help of a german professor, I discovered architecture and history and sociology. But you know what? I couldn't handle the open-endedness of those subjects for a long long time. And you know what else? I had MAJOR writer's block for years. I couldn't write. Now I look back and think, wow. That was some major voicelessness.
And while I'm rambling, would you believe that when I was in my first year of college, I told my mom as if it was the weirdest thing in the world,"People listen to me here." I wasn't being mean or hostile. I was really sharing it with her like, wow, isn't that bizarre? What's with people here? They listen...as if I actually have something to say. I so didn't get it, did I?
Hi Wildflower,
I want to talk, but I didn't want it to seem like I'd overlooked these things here that you said. You know you've got a good mind, don't you? Are you happy with the choices you've made so far? I've never asked how old you are because I guess from something you said once I assumed you're about 28 or 30. Is that right?
Has the Imposter Syndrome affected you? Caused you to reject certain paths that you would have flourished in? Just wondering, that's all? Or have you gone the way you dreamed of?
You don't have to answer any of these ???? of course. You know the rules. Take what you want/need and leave the rest. :D :D :D
Here's another one from me to you if and when you're up to it. It's so weird, I just knew that an image has been forming in my mind re your mum, and that she just so reminded me of someone. I'm so glad the web-page was helpful. Let's all say a big thanks to Rosencrantz. :D :D She's been bloody brilliant in contributing really helpful resources here.
So here's my thought. You know that list they had on P/A traits on that site. I was gonna say, why don't you single one or a couple, or hey, even the whole damn lot out. And then I was gonna ask you if you wanted to do a really specific vent on EACH ONE! :D Are you with me? You know, really let it RIP, and let it all out. :x And hey, you could even go into how you think that specific trait she directed towards you, has impacted on you.
Anyay, that was my wild and crazy idea for the day. I think it could be useful, or therapeutic. Especially seeing as it seems impossible that you can direct any of it at her in the flesh. Absolutely, ONLY if, and ONLY when you wanted to of course. And if you wanted to do it here, in this thread, hey, :D I'd love to hear it. :D Kinda like a victim impact statement, but with a cheer squad, and maybe even some good feedback. Come back to me on it if you want to do it, okay. But, no pressure.
((((HIGS from a happy floating HIGAPIGASAURAURUS))))
CG
1).
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Hi CG,
No one’s ever asked me to vent before. I kinda feel like crying, you know? I’m always afraid things will blow up if I vent. Buildings’ll fall down. People will get hurt.
I know some of these feelings are ugly. Bear with me. In a strange way, this thing I’m going through – whatever it is – is allowing me to accept some of the good things that happened with mom. Like going over to the bayou during a flood to see if the water rose up over the edges. :)
But a strange thing, can I share this with you? One of the things I loved most about moving to NYC was that people didn’t care if you were pissed off in the streets. Who noticed? As if you were the only one… :roll: So I vented my first year or so. I walked around pissed.
Funny story about that actually. A guy on the street actually ‘got me’ one day. He had about 5 stock questions he asked me every day on my way to work (me running late, hot summer, uncomfortable clothes, working with bankers…BAD MOOD CITY). He’d stop me and ask “Are you gonna smile for me today?” There were other variations of that, but that’s the one I remember most. Because he asked me one time too many. :lol: I growled back at him one day in response, “NnnnoooOOO!” - and immediately I realized what a b*tch I was being started laughing. He laughed with me, too. Or maybe at me. :wink: :lol:
Anyway, so, this morning….I’m still pissed off. But I’m letting it happen. I’m listening to my music on my way to work: Garbage. Blasting. I’m angry. I can’t remember the last time I was this angry. I don’t care what people think. But get this…on my way into my office building, I say my happy good mornings to everyone like every other day – and I mean it. I’m angry, but I’m not taking it out on anybody. :shock: I can be angry without my world coming to an end. Does that sound pathetic? That I didn’t understand that until now? That I can be angry and still be nice to people around me who don’t have anything to do with why I’m angry?
Should I stop? Is this too personal? Am I making people uncomfortable or do you wish I’d just keep all this to myself instead of filling up board space with my brain farts?
Has the Imposter Syndrome affected you? Caused you to reject certain paths that you would have flourished in? Just wondering, that's all? Or have you gone the way you dreamed of?
The answer to that is complicated, I think. I’ve been thinking about the Imposter Syndrome a lot lately, but I think there are some weird twisted ideas I have about being … smart. My parents hid behind it. And being intelligent never did anything to make my dad a nice person, did it? So I really don’t value my intelligence, and people who talk about being smart and privileged make me really uncomfortable. It’s over-rated, in my book. I’d much rather hang out with people who are kind and real and wise. Who cares what books you’ve read or what theorems you know? So is this part of the Imposter Syndrome? Devaluing something I have? Devaluing something because it doesn’t get me where I want to go? I’m losing ground here…babbling, I think.
So here's my thought. You know that list they had on P/A traits on that site. I was gonna say, why don't you single one or a couple, or hey, even the whole damn lot out. And then I was gonna ask you if you wanted to do a really specific vent on EACH ONE!
That’s such a great idea, CG. Thanks. I started a little this morning. It’s about getting the details down isn’t it? I need to do that. The more I do that, the more real all this seems.
And if you’re out there reading, R, thanks for everything you’ve given this board and all the people you’ve helped during your healing process. It’s a lot. I hope you know that. :D
((((((((heartfelt HIGS))))))))) from a venting Wildflower
P.S. – Good guess on my age, CG. Yeah, I’m 31, though I forget all the time. Good thing I remember what year I was born :roll: :wink:
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Hi CG,
I want to talk, but I didn't want it to seem like I'd overlooked these things here that you said.
Do re meeeeeee....
Me me me me meeeeeeeee...
Me me me me meeeeeeeee...
I've been having a bit a bit of a me fest here, hunh? :oops: Sorry about that. I think my ears are working if you wanna talk about...not me :D. I have some comments/questions about your Sunday post, so I'm comin' back. Just wanted to say talk away...don't worry about adressing all my blabbering. Blubbering. Bloobering. :D
(((MUDDY HIGS)))
Wildflower
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Hi CG,
My friend didn't poo-poo me at all. Actually, she affirmed me, and mentioned a couple of other times she'd noticed our mutual friend say very hurtful things that she thought I hadn't noticed at the time. I had though. I'd just never said anything.
So do you trust this friend more now? I think it’s so great that not only did she validate your experience, she even volunteered more examples to validate you. Do you see yourself confiding in her in the future if things get sticky? And about that friend who hurts you, how are you going to deal with her? Do you have any ideas?
A funny contradiction here. I talked about it later with my husband and opened myself up for his observations. I asked him to be frank with me, (OOOHH, Frank, who's Frank hahahahah) and so we discussed how I'm not insecure at all addressing such issues in the workplace. I am quite bold and confident in the workplace. I guess that's because there are defined parameters and a certain amount of protection and whole bunch of rules that both sides have to abide by. So, I find I have no fear in that context, and over the years have had to deal with some pretty heavy issues. A for instance, a sexual harrassment issue a few years ago which led to the guy getting the sack. Anonymous threats were fed back to me, and strangely enough, they didn't frighten or silence me or keep from speaking up or make me stay at home.
This makes complete sense to me. For the longest time I’ve kept very, VERY distinct boundaries between work and home. I rarely socialize with people from the office (my last job was an exception), and I’m very professional (when I’m not a wreck from dealing with family stuff, that is). I’ve started loosening up those boundaries lately, but yeah. I can see how you might be a different person in the workplace. I’m sorry about the sexual harassment issue stuff. That musta been such a pain. I think there are times when I could have raised sexual harassment issues but didn’t because I wasn’t confident enough in myself. I really do appreciate men, and I love the ways in which they’re different from women, but the brutish stuff…I could leave it, ya know?
And you can see I don't seem to be suffering any particular anxiety here on this forum either. hahahahahaahahahah Take my last couple of posts to 'others'.
You know, it took me a while to figure out why you were so upset with visitor, but then I remembered you yelling out to your mom (here) that not all men are bad. I take it she told you they were a lot? Did she say it all the time, or was it more like the way she treated them? Or both?
He had such a failure mentality. WHoooa. Now, do you know what effect that had. It was expensive, exhausting, draining and infuriating. Frustrating, is just way too much of an understatement. And the put-downs he could create which would have me believing I was the problem were so well crafted. it's taken me years to dispel some of those myths. Yet, and I hesitiate to say this, because it's seems so contradictory, he is a really nice guy. But, the energy he would invest in his pet-projects and hobbies. And what a "Don't Touch" mentality. When I think back, I laugh. How can you live in the same house and not touch the record-player, or the records. Maddening!!!!
Now that I’ve got my head screwed on straight and I’m not milking this anger thing (like getting puss out of a wound…gross, but do you get the idea?), I can finally say, wow. Your ex sounds soooooo much like my mom. The record player bit is so funny, but I know it’s true. I wasn’t allowed to finish any drinks in the fridge. I couldn’t have the last of the milk or soda or tea or anything. It was only recently that I realized how weird that is. She had to have the last of everything?? I’m also assuming that another post a while back was yours – one that goes into more detail about his passive-aggressive side regarding your children and how you had to get your kids to safety. That’s such a sad story, CG. I’m so sorry you had to go through all that alone.
And yeah, I can see you appreciating his good qualities – especially now that he’s gotten better and gotten help. That’s great. Do your kids still keep in touch with him?
My son (the one who was electrocuted you mean) is really really well. He just got his driver's license and bought a new car. Scarey stuff. Now he's got big re-paymnets hanging over his head each month. I don't agree with going into debt for depreciating assets, but oh well, what can I say. I remember how I was at his age. He wouldn't listen to his old mummy and buy a bomb first time round. No, a top of the line bright red ute with black interior.
I really don't care, so long as he drives carefully.
New red car :roll: :D. Boys :D. Is he a good (i.e. confident) driver? I’ll put up a few prayers for him as well. So glad he’s doing really well after the electrocution. And hey, I guess it could be a good story for the girls though ;) :D.
They have to put me at the back of the class, 'cause I throw everybody else off. I'm always about 3 beats behind everyone else. very confusing for the class. I've even managed to throw the instructor off acouple of times. She's avoided looking at me since then
since then. Hahahahahahaahah
That’s hilarious, CG. :D I don’t know how anyone learns those aerobic moves. They’re so fast and complicated! At least in dance class they break it down for you – and teach you over and over. And besides (mischievous grin emoticon), bellydance ain’t about the feets :D. To me, it’s about being a woman in a sensual, beautiful way. Okay, and in a funny how-the-hell-do-you-expect-my-body-to-do-that way :lol:.
Float float float….splash splash….
(((((((BIG HIGS))))))) (from a free wildflower….tonight anyway :D :D :D)
P.S. - I hope my angry posts never came across as angry with you or anyone here. I'm sorry if they did. I was just speaking from an angry - and strangely clear - place. Anyway...just want you to know...
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Hi Wildflower,
Belly dancing, how totally cool. :D I'd never be able to master that! My head would fall off.
I'm so glad you started a vent list re the P/A stuff, a victim impact statement of sorts. That's really what I wanted to talk to you about. To see if you wanted to do it. And to see if I could help in anyway, having lived with someone like that in adult-to-adult relationship. (hahaha, adult-to-adult, a bit of a joke there). But also how I observed it impacted on my kids. That would be interesting.
Yes, that visitor did annoy me, more so than make me mad. And a couple of those responses I found ignorant and annoying too. Oh how totally arrogant of me to say that. Coooool. :D hahahahahahaha
I get so frustrated though with people who want to tell me how to think. And how to translate an "I love you". Come on!!!!! Funny, I thought I said some pretty nice things in that post, about men in particular. That didn't get recognised, noticed or go down too well, did it? Apparently it was hate-filled. hahahahahaha.
Anyway, enough of that, sorry I've been slow in posting back to you, I didn't have time to do 2 earlier, and I felt I just had to shoot one off to Portia after I read her post. She's so sweet and I think missing R. Shit, I hope she doesn't read that, or she'll hunt me down and beat the shit out of me (hahahahaah) me for saying that. I meant to get back to you earlier but other things got lumped on me in the meantime. Sam old jazz, books books books. End of financial year fiasco!!
I meant to tell you, the most amazing thing happened the other day. I went down the back and saw a bright coloured bird under the clothes line. I walked over towards it and it didn't fly away. So I went closer and closer, got down on the ground and just sat near it and guess what? It walked over to me, so I put my arm out and it climbed on my hand and up my arm. It was a perfectly tame parakeet. The prettiest bird, and Indian ring-neck.
My friend (the tall one) found a picture of one on the web for me. I put up a sign at the local shop but no-one's rung yet. It is so so so friendly and tame and beautiful, so I got a little cage and keep him/her in there when I'm out, but when I'm home I take him/her out and let him wander and crap all over the house. Tom (the cat) doesn't bother it, I just say, "No Tom" and he walks away and leaves the bird alone. Surprise and delight. Anyway, I've decided to keep it. And however we whistle, he copies almost perfectly. Somebody must be missing him awfully.
You know, I guessed you'd been giving the Imposter Syndrome some thought. It's a powerful contradiction of a complex isn't it? A very good thing to reject. I'm working on that one, and have got my husband in the act to pull me up when he hears me doing it. He loves it. He's finally been licensed to correct me on something. hahahahahahaha :D
And I loved the story of the guy who says stuff to you on your way to work. It's sort of a cool social act with unknown consequences, huh?
What I think is good is when we learn to direct our anger and frustration at those who anger and frustrate us, and not take it on innocent victims and bystanders in our lives. That's the whole shit aspect of P/A. It's all they do. They never deal with there anger in a timely or appropriate manner, so those closest at home cop it's weird perversions. After all, they have to pervert it to justify it, and for it to make sense to them. Do you get what I mean?
Let's take my ex for example, let's say his car wouldn't start. It would end up getting taken on me and the kids. he had to justify this in his pea-brain, so he'd find some small thing to go psycho about to us/at us. When what he was really angry at was himself and the car.
So now, I find I'm learning about this stuff too. Like if something makes me angry, do something about it, to it, for it. Contain it to the actual thing/person. Don't allow it to bubble over and make a mess everywhere else. Don't justify it. Don't exaggerate it. Deal with it, then leave it behind or alone or whatever.
Yeah, that visitor post is actually a very good example. I do find such bullshit nonsense, factually unsound, tedious, frustrating and boring. Nobody else had to agree with me. And I migght add, privately just between you and me, I was suspicious. So I decided to say so. I gfelt good after I did. And even after my comment drew some fire, I still felt good and decided I felt no need to resile from anything I said, or apologise. I thought "Go suck a lemon, cause that's what I really think." hahahahaahahah. For me, and I'm doing it a lot more out here in my real life, it's having very positive outcomes, and I don't find myself stewing and wishing I had of said something, and getting so frustrated I take it on others.
So where does that lead me? I think your mum was taking out all her internalised, undealt with resentments and hostilities and repressions on you. Didn't want to deal with her problems and responsibilities. Avoided them. Blamed them. Kidded herself that she fulfilled them. Lived in a fantasy. But the risk here, now, for the children of such people is that as the recipient of such 'nurturing' they could have absorbed that 'style' without wanting to or even realising it, and then end up doing the same inlater in life. That's what I wanted to talk to you about.
So then, if we're brave enough, how can we determine
a) if we do it
b) when we are most likely to do it
c) who we usually do it with
d) how often we do it
e) how we do it
I can't think of any more questions to add to that list, but I'm sure there are plenty more
Now I know visitor is a real nonsense comparison in some ways. But what I'm saying is, by dealing or expressing ourselves even with little things as they come up, we get a chance to be corrected, express our opinions, and grow our brains, hearts and psyche's. And also we begin to learn about and appreciate our own personal style, character, nature, and preferences. That's wholesome and positive, don't you think, for someone who just plain was never allowed to be, or express.
Anyway, I have to attend some domestic matters now. Like I'd better get that washing into the machine before it jumps in itself. I hope we can continue on this P/A topic at your leisure.
(((HIGS)))
CG
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Hi!
CG, "how to translate I love you?" when coming from my mother and others I don't trust means that what they are saying is "I can't love anyone who can't love me back."
P, how's the cooking going? Didn't buy any clothes, huh? I have found that I can do wonders with those two skirts and that one pair of pants.
WF, dance, dance, dance!
I feel the need to apologize because I know I am scratching the surface with what is all going on but, recently, I've had to get back onto my freelance work. I realized the toll the last conversation with ma had on me. All work was put aside. But I found this board and I hope you don't leave it, Portia because I like hearing what you have to say. In fact, I like hearing what everyone has to say.
CG, your - may I say it? - *shoot from the hip* approach has inspired me. I have spent the last few days on yahoo msg boards sounding out my own voice and getting into dialogue with others without being afraid that I will be criticized or ridiculed.
Anyhoo, still here.
Love,
Dawning.
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Dawning, yes I love this thread too!
I feel the need to apologize
we'll stop that feeling one way or another when it ain't necessary! I like your idea of trying out a voice on another board...tempting...but I'll end up an net-crack-head I just know it...anyway, must away. Enjoy your evening (what time is it anyway with you?)...P
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Portia wrote:
(what time is it anyway with you?)...
It's getting late. I have suddenly realized how much pain I am carrying and that I need to call my therapist again. But...but...but....isn't is nice when those whirling dervishes can be so devoted to their god that they join a monastery, and spin to commune with their god. I would like to ask them what they do when they are not spinning.
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Hi Wildflower,
How ya' doin'? Thought I'd share something I realised yesterday when I reading on that P/A site. My mother also exhibited a lot of those traits. I started ticking them of on my fingers. Then I thought about the jumper she knitted for that kid, that she buried in the garden for his father to find. Yes, besides psycho, still P/A hey. And other things like cleaning toilets with people's toothbrushes. YYUUUCK. Yep, P/A as well. So my list of questions I posted to me about my kids, is also to me.
Hope it didn't bother you? Just give me the middle finger sign if it did, and add an "Here, Analyse This." hahahahahahahah
And my ex. Whoooah. I could always guarantee a "No" response if I ever asked him directly to do anything. I had to be very cagey and even learn to be very manipulative to get him to do or finish anything. How tiring that was. He manages quite well though with no responsibilities and no demands.
I remember once when a new shopping centre opened quite a way from home. First day, there were going to be great specials. I didn't drive back then, and the kids and I really wanted to go, so he took us. But only if we agreed to one of his dumb conditions. And so we agreed to. hahaha
He was going to stay in the car and time us. We had a certain amount of time or he was leaving without us. We went over the time and when we came out of the shops, with shopping bags and pram and he was gone. hahahahah What a jerk. We had to foot-slog it all the way home, wingey children in tow. I should have walked the other way and kept going then. "Run Forrest, Run!!" comes to mind.
Anyway, in sorting these things out in my mind I think I have a few of these P/A traits myself, so I'm going to do more surfing on the topic. Mine comes in the form of not dealing with issues on the spot, as I've mentioned. And letting things fester and stew and seep. YUK. So I'm aware of that now, which is good. It's gotta start somewhere, hey.
((((HIGS))))
CG
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Hi CG :D,
I've been thinking about the P/A stuff, and I even wrote some stuff about mom after you asked. Then I realized that I couldn't write about individual aspects because one story encompassed multiple traits. And then...
I ran out of anger. :D Really. I met with my therapist this week and took my anger in with me - kinda so she could look at it. It was a good session. I feel like I finally earned some stars or something, too, because she finally came out and used the NPD diagnosis on my mom. She's never said that before - partly because I think she doesn't want to cloud my perceptions and partly because, well, she's never worked with my mom and she only has my testimony. By the way, she laughed when I told her about the P/A list suggestion :D because she knows I'm gonna dive into it. :D "Where will these travels take you next?" she smiled affectionately.
So, I'm coming back to that list. But in the meantime, I'm really glad you've been thinking about it, too. Finding how it fits your mom and stuff. Can I ask you something? Does it make her less scary? I mean, yeah, she's a psychopath, but does it make it easier to handle if you can identify some act as a P/A thing?
And yeah, your ex leaving you like that at the shopping center? Why, cos he had so many more important things to do? Like saving the planet? :roll:
I had to be very cagey and even learn to be very manipulative to get him to do or finish anything. How tiring that was.
Geez, me too. :roll: I had this whole 'system' worked out where I would walk this high wire trying to get anything - ANYTHING - from my mom. Right down to timing my questions...spacing them out...never asking more than twice....making her think it was her idea. Just thinking of asking her something now gives me a head-ache - and usually I just feel hopeless and don't bother. Which, you know, was one more reason why her suicide crap was so freakin stressful. If I ask her to take care of herself, will she do the opposite? If I ask her not to hurt herself three times, will she take a bunch of sleeping pills just cos I 'nagged' her? If I ask the wrong question or say the wrong thing - will she get set in her ways and ... get worse because of me??? If I do nothing...and she commits suicide...
You get the idea? :shock: BARF.
Mine comes in the form of not dealing with issues on the spot, as I've mentioned. And letting things fester and stew and seep.
I had two close friends (one an ex-boyfriend) tell me that they were amazed that the time they spent with me was so peaceful. I never argued or fought. But then I had major blow-outs with each of them - because I'd been racking up all these things I was too afraid to talk about. Afraid that if I disagreed they'd leave me or stop liking me. I admitted something like that to my ex-boyfriend during our biggest fight. Something like, I was afraid to tell you because I thought you'd get upset. He came right back at me, "and you think THIS is BETTER???" Boy was he right. Now every time I think of not saying something because I'm afraid people won't like me - something that I'm upset about - I remember that and try to find a way to address it immediately. It's taken a lot of practice to do it every time - and to do it in a way that doesn't hurt people, but rather, respects their right to know what's going on. But it's not easy.
Take this afternoon for example. My work has suffered big time over the past two months because of all the personal shit I've been sorting through. I finally went to my boss to tell him that I was sorry about my performance lately and that I hope things will be back to normal now. He was sympathetic and before I had a chance to explain, he actually said, "tired of being a super human and just being human?" Sigh. Yep. That one's been on my list a while, too :wink:. He told me to just let him know if I need to back off a little. And he hadn't asked me about it because he didn't want to pry - he can see that I like to keep my privacy.
Good interaction, all things considered, and I've made a mental note to myself to work on a better early warning system at work (and to forgive myself and find a better way if I can't handle work AND all this crap). But I was upset after talking to him, too.
You know why I don't talk about my personal stuff with people I don't know? Because I'm EMBARRASSED that my parents are f*cked up. You know why? Because they're my PARENTS!!! How can I NOT be f*cked up?!?!? I might as well wear a big sign saying "Both my parents are INSANE - so don't bother with me 'cos with TWO parents like that, I gotta be INSANE too" Know what I mean? Arrrrghhhh :evil:
But I've worked and worked and worked to pull my life together and not be messed up like them. Now at least I believe in myself enough to know that I'm not crazy or a bad person - just saddled with some unhealthy habits. But I still hate trying to explain this to strangers - because they can't know how much work I've done. My closest friends don't even know how much work I've done. And you know what? Sometimes that makes me mad. You know why? Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person. Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal. And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.
I RESENT MY PARENTS FOR GIVING ME THIS CRAP.
I'M TIRED OF PAYING FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T MY FAULT.
Sorry...what did I say about being out of anger? I think I just found a new well.... :roll: Eh...or maybe I'm just having a dark moment and it'll pass. :roll:
And here I was just gonna write a quick "no worries I'll be back" post. :lol: And I will. Probably more tonight. I like the P/A idea. :D And it's really comforting knowing you understand what it's like to be there - and be working on this. :D
(((((((((BIG HIGS))))))))))))
Wildflower
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Hi CG,
Here's the stuff I put together the other night in response to the P/A list. Consider it a first installment? :wink:
FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.
I’m not sure about this one, to be honest, but this is what it reminds me of. When I started driving, I was overwhelmed with how free I was. I used to drive people home – hours out of my way – just to be driving. Just to be out. I started hanging out more because I was no longer dependent on my mom to take me out. She was always too tired, too busy, too annoyed to take me out to meet a friend. I gave up after a while. Started telling my friends I didn’t want to go out, that I’d rather stay home. They thought I didn’t like them. Big messy downward spiral – can you see it?
Anyway, when I started driving, I started hanging out more. I started hanging out with this woman who had left home when she was 16. We went to a coffee shop and did our homework together. Calculus. How bad-ass is that :lol:? But she was cool. She had punk dyed hair. She told me a hilarious story about a bad dye job once where she came out of the salon okay, but over the next couple of days…clump…clump… Most of her hair came out. She had to get a spiky hair cut. She missed her long hair. I admired how she’d left home, stuck up for herself. She’s the one I rode around with listening to classic rock, wondering if I’d heard it all before or was losing my mind.
But I’d be out with her, studying. And feeling so, so guilty. I’d start whining about how worried mom would be, and she’d smack me back to my senses and remind me that we were STUDYING. So I’d stay out late with her, and when I got home, mom would be sniffling on the couch: Are you having fun out there? I just miss you so much. You used to be so little. What happened to that girl who used to be so little?
All I could think was, WHAT?!? You miss me NOW? Where do you get off? You’re crying? Over ME? No. I’m not buying it.
But of course I’d buckle. How bad am I to think these horrible things? Of course she misses me. I’m going out more now. Things are changing. At least she’s not yelling at me to stay home and be home by 10, which is what I expected. I had no curfew. Geez. Of course I didn’t have a curfew. I could take care of myself, right? Just as long as I didn’t interfere.
OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.
FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.
FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.
MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.
PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.
CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.
AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.
I can think of a million examples of these traits. It was just life. As I said above, I have to be very careful with my mom because if I ask the question in the wrong way, or if I ask her twice, or if I ask her at the wrong time, she’ll close up and refuse whatever I’m asking – not openly of course – and it’ll never happen. So yeah, as you said, I had to learn to be manipulative with her.
A month before my junior year in college, my dad dropped a bomb on me. He wasn’t going to pay for my college tuition anymore. He’d spent his entire inheritance (on a second home, on a third floor addition to that home, on renovations of the entire house, on himself in a million other ways) – part of which was to be reserved for my education, according to my grandfather before he died.
Mom and I scrambled. To her credit, she used up her savings to keep me in college. Not that I didn’t hear about it over and over again after that. How my dad had ruined her life by taking all her savings. Savings she’d worked all her life to save up. How she'd lost all her security. She fell into a severe depression and lost her job (the real beginning of the current spiral downward, I think). Did it make me feel like I’d stolen her money? Did I feel her depression was my fault? Absolutely.
But…my school was expensive. Mom’s savings hardly made a dent. I needed to be on financial aid. But…in order to apply for financial aid, the school needed my mom’s financial statements. Tax forms, etc. She put it off. Week after week. Promises that she’d send it in. Tomorrow. In a week. Day after day went by. No forms from Mom.
I signed up in the student work program, but because of the late notice before starting the year, there weren’t many jobs left on campus, so the financial aid office took care of me and gave me a job there. I was surrounded by the issue of financial aid. Every day. No escape. I filed other family’s statements away. Other mothers’ pleas to help their children. Other mothers’ paperwork. Other families struggling. Nothing from my mom.
That’s when I had my first major panic attack – trying to be strong and keep up my studies. Trying to comfort my dad by telling him I understood about the money and this wouldn’t affect our relationship that we’d fought hard for (HA! We. As if. :roll: The peace I’d fought for between us). Trying to find new and creative ways of asking my mom to send the damn paperwork without letting on that I was asking her to send the damn paperwork. :roll: And then I started dating an emotionally unavailable guy. CRACK. SPLIT. CRASH.
That was fall term. When I went home that winter break, that’s when mom told me I didn’t contribute a #@$% thing to the household. Irony?
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Okay…that’s all the poison I can stand for now. :lol:
((((((((BIG HIGS)))))))))
Wildflower
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aurghhhhh...! Wrah! That's how your parents make me feel!
How d'ya feel about money now WF? Are you super-independent with money? And your work....your boss obviously values you a lot, implying you always give more and maybe it's ok to give the norm? Don't give too much please.
Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person. Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal. And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.
Where are those average people then? Just to be normal eh? Scratch anybody's surface and 99.9% of the (western) human race are loons of some sort. (Half my neighbours are. Just discovered one went to top himself a coupla years ago (he didn't) but he's a manic/dep. I had no idea and I see him all the time. 'bout time I started looking at other people a little more closely I think.)
You don't have to pay for your parents' f*ck ups. You don't have to earn anything. You ARE part of normal life. It really really really IS everyone else. You know the thought - 'is it me or is everyone else crazy today?' - hey, I keep reading you and well, I reckon it's everyone else. I'm serious. Damn it, WF, you're above average for god's sake and it makes me mad to think you're giving your employer more than required. Work isn't personal - it doesn't define you (I guess unless you're an artist). Sorry, but I made the mistake of letting work partly define me and I'm sooooo anti-it now that it's a bit of a crusade! P furry ear stroke
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Hi Wildflower, :D
I'm really glad you've been thinking about it, too. Finding how it fits your mom and stuff. Can I ask you something? Does it make her less scary? I mean, yeah, she's a psychopath, but does it make it easier to handle if you can identify some act as a P/A thing?
Yes, and no. Personally, physically I"m not scared of her anymore. Because she's not around, I suppose. But I know what she's capable of, so I think if I was to ever have her around again I would be. I've told a lot of stories here about her. But no the worst ones. It's inappropriate and probably illegal. Those ones, I should/could only ever go to the police with. But I have no evidence or proof, they were such along time ago. Just my own 'suspicions and knowing'.
My husband has, at times, wanted me to do this, but I haven't. He kind of agrees with me though, and I'm convinced it would only appear like 'sour-grapes'. Let me just say this, I really hope she gets a pang of conscience before she dies and leaves a confession note of sorts. And not just die, taking the secrets of her foul deeds to be buried with her. I can't really say any more than that.
And yeah, your ex leaving you like that at the shopping center? Why, cos he had so many more important things to do? Like saving the planet? :roll:
Yes, I remember geting home and he was in his usual spot on the lounge, watching TV.
Geez, me too. :roll: I had this whole 'system' worked out where I would walk this high wire trying to get anything - ANYTHING - from my mom. Right down to timing my questions...spacing them out...never asking more than twice....making her think it was her idea.
I completely understand. Talk about making the simplest, most basic
issues of childhood, like communicating our needs, into a battle-field.
??? If I do nothing...and she commits suicide...
This has to be the ultimate weapon of mass mainipulation doesn't it? The ultimate form of manipulation and control. This one makes sure we're always keeping one eye focussed on them and don't stray too far, or apply too much pressure on them, or too many expectaions on them. WTF
"and you think THIS is BETTER???"
I know, but it's not our intention to explode/implode is it? We're just trying to keep it in, usually to keep the peace. Very juvenile, isn't it? It doesn't work. The sooner we get past that one the better. :D
"Both my parents are INSANE - so don't bother with me 'cos with TWO parents like that, I gotta be INSANE too" Know what I mean? Arrrrghhhh :evil:
But I've worked and worked and worked to pull my life together and not be messed up like them. Now at least I believe in myself enough to know that I'm not crazy or a bad person - just saddled with some unhealthy habits. But I still hate trying to explain this to strangers - because they can't know how much work I've done. My closest friends don't even know how much work I've done. And you know what? Sometimes that makes me mad. You know why? Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person. Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal. And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.
I RESENT MY PARENTS FOR GIVING ME THIS CRAP.
I'M TIRED OF PAYING FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T MY FAULT.
Good on your boss for being understanding, but can I say, I'm with Portia, don't push yourself. Especially not to compensate. That's often what we do when one part of our mind/life seems so messy an screwed up and impossible to handle. We try to 'prove' it wrong by being totally cool, together and a success in some other way/s.
My husband does this too. I guess I probably do too. But I'm much more aware of it in him. He's in a lot of ways, socially retarded. Hope he doesn't read this!! :wink: And he's a bit of a mis-firer in personal relationships. But he feels and is convinced that he well and truly disproves this 'myth' about himself because he's number one at his work.
It doesn't disprove anything in my eyes. They are completely seperate. But he needs the validation it gives him, and for years that validation has 'enabled' him to be a good an proper, fair bastard at home. I don't let him off the hook any more.
This is me when I'm in lecture mode to home at him, (note all the 'talking at' and 'telling him' tone. Very N of me hahahah)
"If you could rectify the disparity in your priorities, and you put the time and effort into being as good a friend, father, husband, etc as do at being and maintaining being number one at work , you'd be the happiest man on earth". He's sort of starting to get it.
I know you're doing the exact opposite to my husband, you've been working on it for years, and recently to the point that you felt that your work was suffering and spoke to your boss about it. But his observation isn't to be ignored. "Tired of being super-human" is an interesting comment. Is he being ambiguous? Is he saying something much more there?
Is he hinting at perfectionism?
Reluctance to delegate?
Lack of trust in others abilities & competencies?
Fear of failure?
Emotional Fatigue?
Ignore this if yoou want to, they are just questions coming from my own personal history and experience. How that comment would have caused knee-jerk reacions in me.
I had a team in one place I worked and I was a very incompetent delegator, and a control-freak. I was paranoid when I had to leave the place even for lunch. Then I had time off, got sick ((hahahah of course, who wouldn't behaving like that) and when I got back to work, man did I notice how skillful that team was without me. How irrelevant my role was really. I was like a big hole in the sand at the waters edge, and the wave comes in and pooouf, it's dissappeared. Some might say, "Oh well that was a result of the good training you gave them."
Yes, yes, I know, but I wasn't allowing them the space to work autonomously previously. How I must have frustrated them. But I learned a good lesson there which I've translated into a powerful parenting skill. Teach them and then let them practice. Even if it means making a mess. hahah or burning a hole in it.
Anyway, I'm off to your next post now, :D
(((HIGS)))
CG
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FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.
So I’d stay out late with her, and when I got home, mom would be sniffling on the couch: Are you having fun out there? I just miss you so much. You used to be so little. What happened to that girl who used to be so little?
Guilt Guilt Guilt! Instead of being free to grow up, and socialise unencumbered, here you were having to lug around mom's needs and dependency. If you if ignore them, you're a selfish little bitch. It's a no-win situation. Why wasn't she enjoying the free-time herself, maybe finishing one of her half-finished hobbies? Answer, cause she wasn't in control. While you were wasting your time looking for the phone book to get the phone number for the pizza joint she was happily in control of you, and you were taking care of something she should have got off her arse and done (dependency?).
Subtle control, but still control.
Subtle dependency, but still dependency.
[quote]OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.
FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.
FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.
MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.
PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.
CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.
AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.
[/quote]
Ican think of a million examples of these traits. It was just life.
Me too, both with mother and ex. :x
Mom and I scrambled. To her credit, she used up her savings to keep me in college. Not that I didn’t hear about it over and over again after that. How my dad had ruined her life by taking all her savings. Savings she’d worked all her life to save up. How she'd lost all her security. She fell into a severe depression and lost her job (the real beginning of the current spiral downward, I think). Did it make me feel like I’d stolen her money? Did I feel her depression was my fault? Absolutely.
Now, this is the juicy bit. This is where P/A gets us if we never deal with it. We end up always as the 'victim' in some-one else's melodrama. We end up as supporting cast in someone else's life, instead of being "leading lady' in our own. :D :D :D :D Which is the real reason we are here. Doesn't everybody want/need a supporting cast?? No they don't.
She lost her security and her savings that she'd worked all her life for. That is tragic, but she was responsible. Somewhere along the line she gave over control, played 'dependent ' once too often and was taken advantage of. This wasn't your fault. And yes, to her credit she spent the last on your education. But remember, that was her agreed responsibility as your parent, and your father's. Not yours. If college was what they'd planned and promised and wanted for you, then they were under an obligation. And you ended up having to work and chip in. They were responsible for any distractions you may had along the lines of feelings of fear and embarrasment and anxiety throughout that whole time.
When your mind should have been free to focus on study and career and new relationships, you had all this other shit going on in 'centre stage'. What difference do you think it would have made if they had of met their responsibilities squarely in the face, say dad had of sold the 3rd floor he built, to help you out? hahahah If they had grown-up and made it possible for you go off to college mentally unimpeded by their crap for the first time?
Other mothers’ pleas to help their children. Other mothers’ paperwork. Other families struggling. Nothing from my mom.
Her own guilt and shame and denying reality. Probably was buying lottery tickets every week, and living in fanasy world that a fairy god-mother was gonna bail you out.
That’s when I had my first major panic attack – trying to be strong and keep up my studies. Trying to comfort my dad by telling him I understood about the money and this wouldn’t affect our relationship that we’d fought hard for
I can't say here what I wish you had of said to him, :x , but you sure let him off the hook 'big-time". And of course I would probably have done the same. But shit, it's exactly at these junctures we need to learn to turn the heat on them, not turn it down. :x :x The sooner we learn to distinguish this, the better. Once again, start becoming 'leading-lady' in our life, not 'supporting role' in some-one elses.
Here he was, skewering you and letting you down big-time, both as father and supporter, probably for the 1000th time, and he turns it around, till in the end, "YOU'RE" offering "him" unconditional love and support.
:shock: :shock: How f*cking twisted is that. :shock: :shock:
SPEW, WHERE'S THE BUCKET.
The squeeky wheel gets the grease!!! You shoulda made the bastard squirm and not let him off the hook TILL HE COUGHED UP SOME DOUGH. Kept the heat up, gone over there, :D with forms for a personal loan for him to fill out AND SIGN.
Skewered his SELFISH ass to the bloody wall. Maybe it wouldn't have achieved anything, Maybe it would. But you'd have a least made him have to face himself. Hope he was enjoying the extra floor on his house, What was it, a pool rooom? Somewhere to relax after a hard day of doing his daughter in. Somewhere to entertain his friends while his daughter was almost on the verge of a nervous breakdown. F*CK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That was fall term. When I went home that winter break, that’s when mom told me I didn’t contribute a #@$% thing to the household. Irony?
Fall term, fall term. yeah, that's for damn sure. I wouldn't contribute a sheet of toilet paper to some people now, without getting a decent thankyou of appreciation FIRST.
Thanks for the feedback and stories Wildflower. I've probably still got a long way to go myself, but just in this post of yours alone I see so much of me in all of these things you've wriiten. Different characters, and situations, but same dynamics. Thankyou, and I think :idea: the fog is clearing. :D I hope it's the same for you.
((((HIGS from a happy free-floating HIGAPIGASAURURUS))))
And long may youn Vent!!!!
CG
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Okay another long one, but before I start ... feeling a little…narcissistic here, what with all this talk of myself. :roll: :oops: :oops: :oops: So I wanted to say that I used to keep journals several years ago. I used to write profusely – trying to figure stuff out. But I got stuck all the time. Big circles. Writing the same pages over and over and over. And who was I writing to? I didn’t even know who I was. I stopped writing in journals because it wasn’t getting me anywhere and I was just thinking about myself all the time. But talking with you guys? Thinking about all of us being in this together? Thinking about others instead of my own stupid problems all the time? Reading your responses and thinking about how things might appear to you? So unbelievably helpful. :D :D :D And yes, the fog is clearing. Big time. :D Thank you guys. :D :D And with that said...no need at all to parse through/read/respond to this post unless you want to. I'm just talking out loud... :D
That’s when I had my first major panic attack – trying to be strong and keep up my studies. Trying to comfort my dad by telling him I understood about the money and this wouldn’t affect our relationship that we’d fought hard for
I can't say here what I wish you had of said to him, , but you sure let him off the hook 'big-time". And of course I would probably have done the same. But shit, it's exactly at these junctures we need to learn to turn the heat on them, not turn it down. The sooner we learn to distinguish this, the better.
You’re so right about how I should have skewered Dad when that was happening, CG. I guess I was too confused and used to making excuses for my parents, huh? BARF. SPEW. PSEW. Maybe I should PSEW him for emotional damage. :lol:
I know you're doing the exact opposite to my husband, you've been working on it for years, and recently to the point that you felt that your work was suffering and spoke to your boss about it. But his observation isn't to be ignored. "Tired of being super-human" is an interesting comment. Is he being ambiguous? Is he saying something much more there?
Is he hinting at perfectionism?
Reluctance to delegate?
Lack of trust in others abilities & competencies?
Fear of failure?
Emotional Fatigue?
Ignore this if yoou want to, they are just questions coming from my own personal history and experience. How that comment would have caused knee-jerk reacions in me.
That bit about being super human? Honest? I’m not entirely sure what my boss means, because I haven’t done any work for the past two months. Okay, maybe a tenth of the work I normally do. :wink: Seriously. I’ve delegated everything except this one piece that we don’t even need. And I’m in charge of bringing everyone’s work together, but that’s it. So what have I been doing? Managing ha ha ha. I’ve been the perfect manager in the sense that everyone else does the work while I sit on my ass (wiping the tears off my face - okay, not managerial :roll: ). So, I can’t imagine that my boss is telling me I’m STILL working too hard. Really. That would be nuts. :?
It’s true that I was a perfectionist, and I used to give too much of myself to my job. But I’ve been much more relaxed over the past couple of years. For one thing, I’ve been going back to school in hopes of changing careers – because my heart’s never really been in my current one. Ever since I started going back to school last summer, I’ve been more than happy to delegate. :D To let this go. If I ever put my heart in my career it was to gain financial stability. To never have to worry about money the way I have in the past. To never let it control me and my happiness the way it has in the past (Yes, Portia, I’m 100% independent financially – I depend on no one). It was pure survival. It was purely drive to get into a position where I could count on stable income. It was never for status. In fact, I’d have been happy staying where I am – but I’ve gotten lots of pressure to promote up. I don't even want to make more money because I'm afraid it'll go to my head and I’ll end up just as irresponsible as my dad. To work less would put me in a precarious position like Mom’s.
When my boss first asked me to delegate, I simply didn’t know how – and yes, part of it was because I didn’t trust others to do the work (can you imagine why? :roll:). But it was also because I simply didn’t know how to break the work down, to reorganize it, shift priorities, identify the balls in the air in such a way that more people could be doing more work – more efficiently. But I’m getting better, I think thanks to my boss's help and advice.
And the project I've been working on for two years? The client is a raging N hahahahahah. I’m not kidding. She’s hilariously insane – hilarious because I rarely have to deal with her in person. You should see the people who do, though. I’m sure you can imagine how crazy they feel. :roll: She can’t make decisions about the project because she has to figure out whether she should have bar soap or liquid soap in the bathroom – or what kinds of snacks and soft drinks she’ll allow (does it make sense to have caffeine-free Diet Coke AND Diet Coke?). :roll: She doesn’t want this project to end because then she won't have all these people catering to her wacky needs. Ever seen Groundhog Day with Bill Murray? That is this project. I’m not kidding. So the team has LOADS of time to make mistakes. :lol: :lol:
So I let people learn - and make mistakes in their own time – because I see this as a learning project. Like school. I ask questions now instead of giving answers. I think about how to break a problem down so that junior members of the team can be more effective. I have a pretty good idea of the strengths of the members on the team. Some of them are just as good as I am if not better (I write software, so it’s fairly easy to be objective about skill levels on the team – even when it comes to different styles). For whatever reason, though, I’ve been singled out to be the leader.
So…here I am … giving all my work away and asking questions and learning how to enable others to do their work. I feel kinda useless in some ways, but super human? No way. I can see how he could have said that six months ago, but not now.
So, I think he may have been saying, in a weird way, welcome to the human world where the rest of us live. With our sloppy work and messy lives and imperfections. Hmm.
Where are those average people then? Just to be normal eh? Scratch anybody's surface and 99.9% of the (western) human race are loons of some sort. (Half my neighbours are. Just discovered one went to top himself a coupla years ago (he didn't) but he's a manic/dep. I had no idea and I see him all the time. 'bout time I started looking at other people a little more closely I think.)
You don't have to pay for your parents' f*ck ups. You don't have to earn anything. You ARE part of normal life.
Funny, all this ties into the bit about me having a tantrum about being embarrassed about my parents. I’ve felt that away about my family since I was around ten but I've never voiced it before. I remember when it started. I remember envying my friend who lived a couple doors down – whose dad was a Boy Scout leader. Whose mom took care of me more than once when my mom was sleeping and I’d gotten in trouble or hurt. They had lots of toys and regular meals. So...I was embarrassed that my family wasn't like this. I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't hide all the problems when I was at home (weight, failing grades, troubled relationships) so I hid. But yeah, I see it now. I have been compensating ever since I left home. I’ve been trying to hide the fact that I come from a messed up family. I’ve been trying to learn to be ultra normal so no one will ever be able to tell by knowing me that I come from a messed up family.
But I DO come from a messed up family. And I survived. That’s something to be proud of isn’t it? To look my past in the face and say “You stay there in the past, okay? We’re done here.” I’ve started telling my closest friend (my ex, the one who showed me how unproductive and hurtful it was to stay all bottled up) about my family. I’d kept it from him until now – afraid he would leave me. Well, he’s still here. He still cares about me. And he had no idea my family was so messed up. Okay, he knew about my dad, but he’s having trouble absorbing all my stories about mom. He keeps saying he had no idea (it wasn't obvious :shock: ?).
That’s what I wanted, wasn’t it? So how could my friends know what I’ve done if I’m all busy hiding and compensating? If I’m sitting on the sidelines of life struggling to be perfect so I can go out and play with the others. But maybe there comes a point where we’re just scared to go out there and take life by the horns – and there’s nothing really holding us back anymore. After that last hook has been removed.
Watching the Nick Drake documentary last Friday, I realized that some people don’t survive. For whatever reason, they don’t survive. No matter how others try to reach out to them. That may be my mom (though I doubt it now – she was just having a tantrum), but it’s not me. I’ve always been a survivor. Time to strut my stuff and be that leading lady in my life. Thanks for that image, CG. :D :D :D :D
(((((((BIG HIGS AND ((CG Portia)) TONS OF LOVE))))))))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower,
as you move into and embrace that 'leading lady' role with all the accolades are a very normal part of it, just remember All those 'normal' people out there are so often just like us. If you met me in a work related endeavour you'd probably think I was from a very normal, well-adjusted, happy, positive and stable environment. And you know something, I'd never let on otherwise. So you just never can tell. You're just as together as the rest of them, probably more in a lot of ways, because of what you've come through. You've built some muscles along the way, that just might see you over the top. :D
So glad and happy that you opened up to your friend. Bet he feels privileged. :D
And once again, long may you vent, 'til it's all out!!
(((HIGS)))
CG
CG
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**Hi Wildflower. Guess CG and P are out and about today/this evening (time difference and all that.)
But I DO come from a messed up family. And I survived. That’s something to be proud of isn’t it?
Yup Yup, YUP. And I am glad that your ex is listening to you.
That may be my mom (though I doubt it now – she was just having a tantrum), but it’s not me. I’ve always been a survivor. Time to strut my stuff and be that leading lady in my life.
:D Survive and Thrive.
**To CG: your explanation of their intentions to simply *win* was so spot-on. After letting it sink in, it felt like another step up the ladder to awareness. Closer to the light. Are you at a coffee shop now. :?: :wink: Hey, I am going to go tomorrow and have a moca.
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Hi CG :D
If you met me in a work related endeavour you'd probably think I was from a very normal, well-adjusted, happy, positive and stable environment. And you know something, I'd never let on otherwise. So you just never can tell.
Are you kidding me? I'd know your humor in a heart-beat :D :D No, no. I get your point. And ... never letting on. I need to think about that. I'm reading Don't Lets Go to the Dogs Tonight right now, and it's the memoirs of a woman who grew up in Africa. It seems as though she accepts her life - good and bad, real bad. I don't want to go around advertising ... but I'm not sure I want to ... reject who I've been in the past. Not anymore. Can I accept who I am and never let on at the same time? Ponder ponder splash ponder.
Here he was, skewering you and letting you down big-time, both as father and supporter, probably for the 1000th time, and he turns it around, till in the end, "YOU'RE" offering "him" unconditional love and support.
Oh, and wow on the unconditional love reversal. I so didn't see that :shock:.
Hi Dawning :D
:D Survive and Thrive.
Nice. I've got a new motto. Thanks :D.
(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
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Hi Wildflower,
[Tonight right now, and it's the memoirs of a woman who grew up in Africa. It seems as though she accepts her life - good and bad, real bad. I don't want to go around advertising ... but I'm not sure I want to ... reject who I've been in the past. Not anymore. Can I accept who I am and never let on at the same time? Ponder ponder splash ponder.
This was specifically in reference to workplace situations, I've found it necessary. Especially being female. :D In personal relationships it's different, I think there's such a thing as appropriate disclosure. I wasn't thinking this means rejecting who I've been in my past. It's just that for me personally, I've often found some people don't understand, or will use certain information for gain and advantage. Or even misunderstand completely and think I need advice or sympathy that I may not appreciate. Tricky boundary things come up.
A counsellor advised me a while ago, "There is appropriate and inappropriate sharing of historical personal information. And also, you need to learn to consciously assess who is entitled and who isn't. Only you can decide, but in most cases less is better than more while your working on your low self-esteem." I found that advice invaluable, partly because of changed outcomes subsequently and partly I felt it put me even more in the control seat of my life. :D Does that make sense?
I guess to, she was taking into account the extent of the horrid details. My history is pretty messy and hard to comprehend even for me sometimes :shock:. So I've come to understand how much harder for outsiders and new folk who come along into my life. Quite frankly, I've found some people and relationships I have are much better off and happier without being burdened with it. While some closer relationships have grown and even flourished as a result of disclosure. It's an individual case-by-case judgment call only I can make.
Oh, and wow on the unconditional love reversal. I so didn't see that :shock:.
Dare I ask? I'm wondering how that makes you feel?
(((HIGS & more HIGS)))
CG