Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: teartracks on June 04, 2007, 01:57:27 AM
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Hi,
Is snobbery an integral part of narcissism? Can snobbery and humility coexist?
A Few Forms Of Snobbery)
Social
Moral
Intellectual
Religious
Pseudo Intellectual
"The' Arts
Knowledge
Cultural
Culinary
Verbal
tt
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My mom is only a snob In those things she feels superior in-like religion but not cooking-she looks down on young people with tatoos. Lets just say she thinks she is better than most but doesnt come out and say it-you can just feel the vibe.
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Oh wow, TT...can't believe we haven't talked about this one, the "special people" that are good enough to associate with Ns.
I always attributed my mother's snobbery to insecurity, since she grew up poor and married well-to-do. Certainly that was part of it, but used to just grind my teeth over the little remarks that in some way suggested the poor "deserved it". Yet, she always had pity for children, and was distressed when she heard of cruelty to children. Though she was clumsy about loving me, I believe she did/does. But the snobbery was relentless.
She had a very happy marriage to an amazingly good and devoted man. She talks about how fine he was. I go, he sure was. Then she invariably repeats an anecdote (100s of times, this one): You know, Mrs. So and So (a fellow teacher) said to me one day, you know, we all always envied you your marriage.
She tells that story and relishes it, and just can't let it go. I guess being the object of envy of a worse snob was huge validation.
My last Nbf was a horrendous snob. His nose practically twitched. He just got this sort of "gleam" look when fine wine or food or travel were discussed...as though, oooooooh, now we're in the appropriate territory. Blecch. Made me want to burp at the table and drink out of a jar, and I do know what to do with all the forks!
One of my snob-triggers is when my mother will say of someone (invaiably another woman, she rarely criticizes men, likely because she was always beautiful and charming and men gave her a lot of attention): Now, she's very interesting. Or, she's quite something.
Curdled my breakfast, those terms, because it was a syrupy put-down and I never wanted to follow up and say, why? It would always be elaborated as something about their education or their appearance. Yarrgghh.
Well, thanks. This little rant has been just like caffeine! :shock: :shock:
love
Hops
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would you believe that X actually came to me at one time and told me that people told her she was a snob. Of course at the time, I wanted friendship with X, so I said "nooooooooooo you're not a snob...you just know what you want and you get it." X said "thank you!" and that was that.
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I know for a fact that my NDIL is a snob!!!
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Is snobbery an integral part of narcissism?
Without doubt. But I think it takes two forms. The conventional snobbery of explicitly aspiring to the 'finer' people, objects and ideas, and the more subtle snobbery of intentionally disdaining such things. I suspect the first case is among people who are more socially confident, whereas the second is for the truly disordered who are afraid to even try to enter that world and so disdain it while secretly admiring it. Like Hamlet's mommy they doth protest too much, though precisely what 'dothing' is I'm a little fuzzy on.
Can snobbery and humility coexist?
I suppose they can coexist in imperfect forms, but as one grows in perfection the other will shrink accordingly, I would think.
mud
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:lol:
Like Hamlet's mommy they doth protest too much, though precisely what 'dothing' is I'm a little fuzzy on.
doth = do
(th)
As in, Mud ith a thtitch.
((Doofuth))
Hops
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Hi Hops - I guess we'd never talked about snobbery as a specific topic here, at least in my memory.
OC - I'd heard you mention that your mom was a snob. Where does she get off, eh???
CB - Sometimes, I think examples of how 'not to do things' show up in our lives to teach us lessons. Such a conundrum though trying to understand it all.
RM - Have missed you. What's going on? How is school going?
Pattibear - Sometimes the snobbery is so blatant you can't miss it. Sometimes though, it is very subtle.
Mud - whereas the second is for the truly disordered who are afraid to even try to enter that world and so disdain it while secretly admiring it. Inverted snobbery...I'm not sure it's restricted to just the disordered, though.
I agree, snobbery and humility can only coexist in imperfect forms.
tt
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Hi Mud,
I suppose they can coexist in imperfect forms, but as one grows in perfection the other will shrink accordingly, I would think.
No matter our circumstances, the quest for humility, as in Godly humility (not the floormat kind), and starving the snobbery is the key, isn't it? Working on it, OK? Working on it!
tt
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Hi tt,
Inverted snobbery...I'm not sure it's restricted to just the disordered, though.
Yeah, I thought my phrasing was kind of ambiguous when I wrote it but couldn't think of anything better. I meant that among Ns, generally those most thoroughly disordered are also the most likely to be the ones most inept at social interaction and therefore most likely to engage in what for them is the safest form of snobbery, the inverted kind, as you so nicely put it.
No matter our circumstances, the quest for humility, as in Godly humility (not the floormat kind), and starving the snobbery is the key, isn't it?
Takes awhile to learn that the former is true humility and the latter is just another form of pride doesn't it? Still learning it. :?
mud
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if you met my ex you would never have him down as a snob- more a slob. In fact this 'salt of the earth working class man' is who he likes to see himself as!
It's only in deeper conversation you learn he thinks he is the cleverest man in the world.
There are cultural aspects to snobbery, people thinking to behave a certain way gives them 'class' or whatever, we saw a lot of that in ENgland and I see it now in the Southern states, a certain code of what people think they ought to be reading or wearing etc.
It's not necessarily anything to do with Nism
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We are not a classless society, that's fer sure.
Hops
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Y'know what, tracks?
This is why part of me wants to hold on to at least some level of discomfort when I am praised.
I don't want to become proud.
I know what a constant danger that is.
Thanks for helping me see this. Now all I have to do is find the point of balance... which should just about take the rest of my life.
Oh well. Nobody said it would be easy, did they.
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WRITE - & CB - To me good manners equals class. One could exhibit good manners to enhance underlying snobbery, but I don't think you'd have to wait long before they showed their N underbelly.
Storm - I don't think anyone here would argue that finding the right balance is easy. I get glimpses of how it would be to be truly humble, but it's fleeting. I'm working on it though!
Ami - I never thought of it the way you describe, being a PERFECT snob. That's a good one!
Hops - Sometimes it feels like to me that we ARE a classless society. Very classless!
tt
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One x would tell me about how, though she had a lot of money, she would shop at thrift stores.
Teartracks, thanks for missing me. Feels good when someone notices you aren't around so much. School is actually on hold till Fall for me, since I have to run the concessions business with hubby and family all summer long, almost every day.
~RM
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TT:
That would be declasse, dollink. Sniff.
(You have to imagine ze accents.)
Snobs. Feh.
Courtesy rocks, though. That was one ingredient in the glue that helped my parents be so well-stuck together...they both were deep believers in courtesy, gentlemanliness, ladylikeness, etc.
Of course, the vast Victorian repression was the dark side of their manners...but now that I'm older I see the harmonic side too.
It's a good thing on balance, I think. And I believe there are courteous free spirits too.
Making no sense, staying up too late...
Hops
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My h was raised by a teacher and yet used poor grammar and cursed a lot when I first met him then found out he worked with men who practiced reversed snobbery-You had to sound ignorant to fit in. I put an end to it by telling him he would end his career rise and look like a stupid person-maybe that makes me a snob.
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I agree that snobbery and N'ism are very different things.
One may find oneself on the receiving end of some pretty harsh stuff, where those with N'ish viewpoints, having no other hope of justification, resort to crying "Snob!" in vain attempts to validate rude or otherwise incorrect behavior.
Until one learns not to listen, or at least not to respond, one may try endlessly to explain why it would be polite or correct to do certain things. I count myself lucky, in that I now know that although the primary N'ish person in my life, my H, will never admit to doing something that is wrong, rude, incorrect, etc., he WILL take the information away and try to incorporate the change in his future behavior. But God help the person who wants closure, such as a civil acknowledgement that he understands and cares about what is being said to him about the matter. If it would entail any kind of admission of error, forget it.
Back before I knew how this works, we used to argue endlessly, as I sought to reach consensis. Now, I just do whatever I want and if I need his help I let him know. Eventually he will help me. But in days gone by, I wanted agreement, understanding, etc., based on an assumption that I could treat him just as I would any other friend or colleague in my peer group.
One of the first big issues, where H cried "Snob!" as a defense against me, was when I advised him that we needed to take the extra links out of the chain in our dining room chandelier. It had been looped up, held by a twist-tie for over a decade. This is a pretty nice home, and it looked really inappropriate. I told him that we needed to remove the extra links and push the extra electrical cord up into the ceiling. To my dismay, he insisted that it was fine as it was. I explained that since it would always be too long with the extra links, and that those would only be needed in a room with a higher ceiling, removing the extra links was just a normal part of installation. Perhaps the electrician had left it for the owner of the new home (H and his late wife) to adjust as they wished, base on their table's height, etc. We fixed it, but under protest from H, who called me "high maintenance."
This and many other items to follow became bones of contention, where H called me a snob, declared that he hated my family, because we're all snobs, etc. Any correction of his grammar got the same result. I was an awful person for caring about speaking correctly, and anybody else who did was too. I got sucked into the name calling, declared him to be "no maintenance" and eventually "white trash." I have stopped that now. When he tries to get things going, I just leave it alone. I no longer seek agreement at any price. I seek it only if it comes easily. If I have to go through too much to get consensis I just inform H of my intentions and go about my business. I can do whatever I want, regardless of what he says. He's often just trying to get that negative "banter" going that he did with his first wife. I don't like that game. I like to praise and collaborate. I like positive energy.
N's can be snobs, and they can also cry "Snob!" as they attempt to defend the indefensible.
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Dear teartracks,
I like your username. I can relate, I guess.
Anyway, my N mother is the biggest snob I know!
I cannot for the life of me figure it out. She was a WAITRESS her whole working life. NOTHING wrong with that, but to her she was a STAR!
And the weirdest thing yet...She has NOTHING going on inside her mind. She cannot hold a conversation on ANYTHING but her FLOWERS!
I'm into genealogy through DNA. I tried to explain to her WHY I thought it was fascinating & she told me NEVER to talk about it to people because it was boring & I would scare people away!
But...this is the same woman who is SMARTER than ANYONE! Just ask her.
She won't take care of her teeth, but she preens & struts around like a vain 21 yr old. She's 66!
Oh, this lists goes on & on & on & on.
She looks down her nose & everyone. She once told me "I don't NEED a man to take care of me!"
Guess what? She's been married 4 times! Now also keep in mind she hasn't worked in YEARS! Lives of my stepfather & the money she stole from my great aunt's will. She got power of attorney & changed it so that nobody inherited anything but her!
If you ever try to point out the contradictions & holes her her logic, she will freeze up & end the conversation immediately!
Boy, an N sure can drive you CRAZY!
Bigalspal
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not gonna flame you, S&S, gonna agree with you totally.
our gifts are given to us that we may better serve others.
as long as the focus is on the use of the gifts to serve others, instead of the use of the gifts to exalt oneself, there's no snobbery involved in either having them or using them.
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anti-codependent post script: I am assuming of course that the serving is mutual, that there is giving and receiving of gifts.
God knows, most people here have been exhorted to give well past the point of pathology, and that is not at all what I want to endorse.