Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: teartracks on June 08, 2007, 01:00:17 AM
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From the first handshake, there is societal pressure to persuade the person whose hand we just shook to believe that all is not just well with us, but very, very well (unless it is a somber tragic occasion or a mere formality in passing with a person you never expect to see again). From the moment we say hello the expected, accepted goal is to convince the other of our credibility, integrity, solidarity, goodness, goodwill, etc. We are taught to make good impressions and that you don't get a second chance to make a good first impression. We're taught to find common ground, which from my experience usually revolves around discussing one and then the others strong points, the things that will enhance the 'aura'. God forbid that either shows any cracks in their armor or vulnerabilities in these important first encounters. God forbid that one might sense that the other's best foot forward is made of clay and break the 'code of honor' that protects the lie (IMHO) hidden in that first handshake. We're basically taught to bring to the fore our good points, brag on them, or even enhance them beyond what is, but NOT TO GET CAUGHT AT IT. I question whether this ritual has any real value and if it doesn't boil down to a big pot of mass human denial. This ritual is practiced and even encouraged, on the job, at church, cocktail parties, luncheons, conventions, conferences, political gatherings, and I'd even venture at at nudist colonies where I'm assuming part of the perceived psychology is to just get it all out there and fast forward to being real. I've never been to a nudist colony, just a guess, OK! I dont' for one moment believe the nudist are any more real with each other than the ordinary man on the street who has joined in a handshake with someone he's just met for the first time. We are taught to lead with out strongest suit, expand on it, enhance it, trade on it, guard it, flaunt it and protect it at all cost. But is the ritual all it's cracked up to be?
Anyway, I'd like some feedback on this. Tell me if I'm anywhere close to describing how things really are or am I misinterpreting a huge chunk of human behavior?
tt
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I was told that very young children are considered to be developing correctly when they’ve learnt to lie. Agreeing with your words, I guess it’s biology and survival to appear to be only the biggest and best of what you might be: to show any weakness will strike you out of the breeding game, might even ostracise you from the group.
Is it mass human denial (of death, I assume)? I don’t think all human tribes do it. We do it, but do all? Some people will approach a stranger with the intent to make themselves seem not big and best, but to be seen as friendly and no threat I think?
It’s scary travelling in different cultures where the social rituals are different; where a handshake is not extended, but it’s okay to put your arm around a person. I don’t like handshakes, they feel false and somewhat unhygienic to me! I don’t want to feel another person’s palm against mine and I imagine passing disease around. I like the practice of bowing and smiling!
As for putting on the front when meeting new people, I feel pretty hopeless at it. If I have a given role (hostess, greeter, whatever) I feel more comfortable but if someone starts asking what I do or how I live, I’m likely to be honest and folks, in general, don’t seem to like that. Some people do though, and it’s so refreshing when honesty is met with acceptance or even a mutual exchange of truly interesting information. I find many people are so focussed on ‘you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours’ that they’re just not interested in being friendly for the sake of it, or maybe they just didn’t learn the skill, or maybe they don’t see it as an alternative. Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon: Dogbert meets a guy on the street:
Guy: “Hi Dogbert, how are you?”
Dogbert: “Is that a sincere question about my well-being or just a social pleasantry?”
Guy: “the second one”
Dogbert: “Oh I’m fine, how are you?”
I love that dog!
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Portia,
You wrote:
"if someone starts asking what I do or how I live, I’m likely to be honest and folks, in general, don’t seem to like that"
Oooh, how true is that!
It seems to be OK if you can *confirm* the other person's lifestyle, etc., by saying in effect, 'me too', but if they, for instance, say 'Have you got kids?' (which most women ask early on in a conversation, I've found), and I say 'None', it's such a conversation-stopper that I dread meeting new people sometimes. If they are so blunt as to say 'Why not?' you have that dilemma - do I tell them to mind ther own business, or do I actually tell them why (bit complicated, that bit).
It makes it worse if you are a 'free-spirit' kind of person, so that when they, embarrassed, change the subject to something 'safer' like work or hobbies, they find that I'm self-employed, politically aware, vegetarian...how many non-mainstream things can a person DO??
The idea of meeting on common ground is a natural one, but I very rarely find like minds...except on here! :-)
Janet
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TT,
I think overall this is an American trait - for whatever reason. As a whole, our culture leans toward the positive and also toward over-exuberance in general.
Personally, I felt I had to be a perfect example of a perfect person, so I was unwilling to let other's see any weakness in me. It is strange to me nowadays that I am often honest with people, whether I think it's what they want to hear or not. Not that I go on about my problems... but I am also not going to pretend to be a Barbie Doll and vapid...
Kisses,
Beth
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Revision: what I said earlier about not all human tribes doing it, probably bunkum, probably all humans do it. Did a bit of surfing:
http://www.livescience.com/health/060515_why_lie.html (http://www.livescience.com/health/060515_why_lie.html) why we lie: excerpt, interesting?:
"People almost lie reflexively," Feldman says. "They don't think about it as part of their normal social discourse." But it is, the research showed.
"We're trying not so much to impress other people but to maintain a view of ourselves that is consistent with the way they would like us to be," Feldman said. We want to be agreeable, to make the social situation smoother or easier, and to avoid insulting others through disagreement or discord.
Men lie no more than women, but they tend to lie to make themselves look better, while women are more likely to lie to make the other person feel better.
Extroverts tend to lie more than introverts, Feldman found in similar research involving a job-interview situation.
Women more likely to lie to make the other person feel better! Well add a dose of disordered parenting and I’ll lie all day to make you feel better! Recognising that, accepting it and knowing the truth in your heart I guess is what matters. Social discourse doesn’t matter a tiny bit compared to what we know inside? Lying – or not divulging the whole truth – is a necessary part of communal life and balance is good: too much stark truth or too much bare-faced lying is extreme, polarised.
I also guess that extroverts would tend to lie more because the liking and being liked is more important to them, which is okay, if we were all introverts it would be a pretty serious and somewhat boring place, maybe…..and a tad intense perhaps? By gum but we’d get some things sorted out faster <big wry smile>.
Book on subject: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Lie-Evolutionary-Deception-Unconscious/dp/product-description/0312310390 (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Lie-Evolutionary-Deception-Unconscious/dp/product-description/0312310390) “we are a species whose skill at deceiving others is matched only by our ability to deceive ourselves”.
Must have faster evolution! <bigger wry smile>
Janet,
I don’t have children, 45, never married, hetero, etc. When women ask me, I say “no” and if they go further, I say “I never felt the need” :) or “I didn’t want any” :) or (if I want them to go away) “there are enough children in the world” while continually smiling. The smile is important I find, it lets them off any ‘hook’ of their making (saying, no I’m not judging you for having children and I won’t allow any judgement you make of me to affect me, thanks, I’m quite happy with my lot). The response depends on the person I guess; some are interested, some don’t want to know, some are angry! I suppose if they have something to defend about their life, my answers might make them uncomfortable. But then how do they cope with a family where the parents are the same gender? Or with an arranged marriage, or with a family where the egg-donor is known as ‘aunty’?
I guess if people are uncomfortable with my answers, I’ll lie a bit to make them feel better! Or not, depending on a whole host of random influences. If I feel I want someone to like me, I might say “It’s a sad story too long to relate now!” (with a smile) to see if that disturbs them (they become afraid that I’m ‘different’) or to see if they show any interest, or acceptance of someone ‘different’. If they’re afraid, I wonder why they are and think about them, rather than worrying what they think of me. Well – ha! – that’s what I try to do when I’ve got it together.
Yes I like the like-minds here (and I like the different minds that give me a good jolt out of my familiar cosy beliefs too!). We’re all human I guess. 8)
TT, hope I haven’t gone off on one that’s a long way from what you meant? Thanks for the chance to have a good think today.
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I want to come back later and give this a well thought out answer because it is a very profound and important topic.
I just wanted to speak to Janets's post. Before I had children,if I went to a party,woman would always ask me if I had children. When I said,No.".They would get really cool and dismissive of me. I still don't know why. It was as if I was a threat of some sort. If anyone has an answer or an opinion I would be interested,
The vegetarian thing is funny. I (pretty much) am a vegetarian(have fish and eggs),However,people get crazy in their responses when you say that you are a vegetarian. It is like you are an alien. I find this ,also, with saying that you don't drink. You ruin the whole meal right there. Everyone has to start explaining that they '
"Only drink a little".
I never say that I don't drink.I say that I don't care for any now.
One of the few worthwhile courses that I took in college was Social Psychology. It was the study of people in groups. It is really amazing how group behavior has a whole different dynamic than individual behavior..
I have to go but I am going to think about this today. Great topic choice ! Love Ami
I just wanted to add something. There is something about humor that goes right through the B.S. to the "Core". Humor seems to unmask "conventions" and allows you to be real. Sometimes,of course, no one will think that you are funny. Then you are there with your "pants down" so to speak. However, I would like to hear what other's have to say about this. I remember that I had a "house warming party. The architect asked me if he could walk around and look. I said,Yes,but if a door is closed ,don't go in.." He laughed and I laughed. However, I was saying that if it is behind a door,it is a mess(without actually saying it)
I am thinking about humor as the socially acceptable way to say what you want to say that is honest without actually "saying it."
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I can remember my father doing business on the phone and sounding like he was meeting and greeting and handshaking. I remember feeling so awful I spoke to my mother about it, though I have no idea what I said. I remember being repelled by him.
That false icky way people deal with each other in business and social occassions, church, is one of the things that create and build anxiety for me.
How many genuine people have you met in your life? The ones that truly connect with you when you meet?
There aren't many in my life and the ones that come to mind are people I treasure.
Don't mean to highjack your post TT but will share a story about last night that reminds me a little of this subject.
***LONG RAMBLING STORY WARNING***
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If you're not bored out of your mind and have nothing better to do, STOP READING NOW.
I grabbed a bite at a restaurant last night. The server at the bar always makes me feel welcomed and at home. Sort of a very high powered place where....
::Singing::
Everybody knows your na a ame.
And they're always glad I come so, I went.
Hard day but good day for me.
To my left eventually sat a short attractive man, an obviouse extrovert and regular of the establishment, expensive suit and hair cut. Next to him sat a gentleman in casual clothes with an unruly gray pony tail and some odd dinner choices. He was obviously different from the rest of the crowd but completely obliviouse. Refreshing really. Next to him, sat a 50 something lady, she doesn't really play into this but there she was with her glass of red wine and I was wishing she was sitting next to me instead of Expensive suit boy.
Power suit turns to me and asks what my story is. I ask him, "why do you want to know?" This is the first time I'm ready for this kind of thing. I've been gaging him and feeling repelled since he began talking WAY TOO LOUD next to me. Sucking up more oxygen than other people. I find myself pressing into the wall but I'm not feeling oppressed. I'm just ready for him. He blunders on about just making small talk, no big deal blah blah blah I'm already turning my attention back to my food when my favorite server comes up and asks him where his wife is, lol. "She's usually gracing your company with her lovely presense" hee I believe this is called a C*ck block in the industry, lol.
Power suit goes on to say that she's with girlfriends and that he'd "usually bring a very fine bottle of wine when she's with him" He begins ordering winer and he wants everyone to know he knows more about wine that we do. Fine. I ask if they have a corking fee and he hesitates a bit over the answer that it's 25.00 but he doesn't have to pay it. hee again. I just knew he'd be so special they'd wave it for him or allow ONLY him to bring his own wine. I've had experiene with people like him before and didn't ask him the obviouse questions about wine he was fishing for.
Just in case though, the other server swoops in and asks him another question about his wife. hee
While they're chatting, I talk over power suit and ask the pony tail guy PTG why he's on a NO PROTEIN (yikes) diet. He says he had terrible asthma and that interests me a lot so we're off talking about food allergies and what he's cured so far and that I'm allergic to shell fish but enjoying soft shell crabs with a lovely lemony herbed burr blanc sauce, none the less. Just red painful Bumps, no breathing difficulties. I'd also ordered a lovely spinach salad, sans onions and goat cheese, and plate of very very crunchy french fries I was looking forward to. I was so content sitting there in that low lit smoke free atmasphere, enjoying a buttery chardonnay. Simply paying attention to my food and how I was feeling. I was feeling stable and solid and happy, btw.
Fries come and they are good! Salad a bit wet but hey, it tastes divine! I'm laughin! Right?
Power suit reaches over and
takes
one
of
my
fries.
Ummmm, he might as well have peed on me, marking his territory. You'd just have to have been there. A shot of hot white adrenaline hits me, that little sh*t just OWNED my food, sort of like taking ownership of me, in a symbolic way and I thought the one server actually shuddered, he was standing right there looking horrified. It was very bad. What would a normal person with healthy boundaries do?
Of course, lol.... I'm not that someonee so.... by the time I'd finished asking myself the question the moment had passed and my way of handling it was to ignore him, turn down the one of 3 very special looking shrimp he offered me and continue speaking to PTG about food allergies and then computers. The moment was broken when fancy pants' friends came over and he stood up to talk REALLY REALLY LOUDLY for a while and I continued my chat and I continued to enjoy my food and continued to enjoy my glass of very fine Chardonnay and continued to crunch through my fries.
Then the server reached over and peed in them too: /
He's nothing if not just a tad protective normally, and I've only been about 5 times but he knows my story, but I was unhappy he stepped past protective and asserted some awful mail marking ritual then said he's glad he doesn't have to be single or date again, gave a YIKES face and walked off. Normally he down plays the girlfriend and acts like he'd be happy to escort me around the world, lol. This sounds a bit improbable but I promise you, this drama was over MY dinner last night and I'd never step on his girlfriend's toes in any way.
So, some book had been left at Expensive Suits place and he disapeared. Server asks who it belongs to and I say, "Loud Boy, I think," I've lost my patience with both of them by now. He looks at me like I slapped him and takes the book, backing away from me in shock all the way over to where Loud Boy has moved and probably heard me call him Loud Boy. Oh well.
I am amused at this overt act of aggression of moving to another space at the very crowded bar. It was an act of aggression on my part, in some way, to ignore and talk over him. <shrug> The only upsetting thing is I don't think I'll be comfortable there enjoying a meal in the future. It was bound to happen, I just don't know exactly why. Maybe someone can explain how this happens to me and I can avoid it. <picturing myself dressed in a severe brown power suit, hair back in painful bun shooting daggers and sneering at everyone> Of course, then I'd be fielding "Having a bad day?" questions and it would go from there.
Was my response to the fry incident passive aggressive?
You bet, lol.
Would I have felt better if I'd asserted my right to eat french fries without having the poor things molested by nearby diners?
Possibly.
Hmmmm, what might I have said or done:
I'll pose some options and look forward to your ideas. Izz.... where are ya on this one?
1) Push the fry plate away and ask the server for another, fresh order. Pushing them to the server would have restored some of his authority in the matter. <nodding>
2) Push the plate gently towards Power Suit and ask my server for a fresh order. Either of these would have brought apologies and loud hurt words designed to elicit words of comfort from me. I wasn't in the mood. I don't know if I could have reisited doing that.
A variation of this one was to push the plate towards him and tell him he could pay for them now too. That was suggested by a friend.
3) I could have asked him about those innapropriate feelings of entitlement he has. Yikes. I honestly didn't want to have that chat. I think my digestion would have gone off again.
4) Said, Please don't touch my food, I have a thing about that.
5) Out and out threatened him about losing a hand the next time he did that. Could have been whispered with a sweet endearing smile so no one else GOT it.
6) Out and out threatened him so that server heard it. Eh, I wish I didn't even have to think about such things. But of course, my brother would say "I asked for it." Maybe I did, lol.
The night ended with Loud boy smoking big expensive cigars while glancing in my direction. We made eye contact about 4 times and I wanted to smack myself. It wasn't that I sought him out, either. He was that big of an oxygen sucking attention whore making big stinky cigar smells you'd just naturally look around for while trying to enjoy food.
I left after taking PTG's business card. The truth was that accepting it was another inelegant gesture that spoke things I resented being inferred but knew were being inferred, none the less. Oh well. Again. I took the card for PTG, though he was obliviouse to everything and everyone around him. Refreshing, really. One of those genuine people you don't come accross very often.
So... I guess I was peed on 3 times at dinner last night.
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Ahh, the no kids thing.
I have a foolproof clockstopper for that one.
"Do you have kids?"
"No."
"Oh. Why is that?"
"I'm surgically sterile, and it was necessary in order to save my life. Any objections?"
Actually, I've run into a variation on this here, when people insist that I can't imagine what parenting is like because I've never actually been one.
I suppose that tube feeding a desperately ill animal every four hours for weeks, structuring my work schedule around her needs, washing her soiled little rear because she was too weak and ill to clean herself, rocking her, singing to her, and sleeping on the floor next to her hospital bed - crib - cage is too dissimilar to count.
Not to me, it isn't.
What's really going on there, I think, with the pressure-to-reproduce thing, is that there is a LOSS of status, in certain ways, associated with childbearing, for women only* - and this is because our societal values and the worth assigned to specific tasks in our society is NOT determined by women, but by men, and by an economic structure that values companies, not families.
Consider how difficult it is for single mothers to find stable, decent relationships. Consider the term 'mommy track'. There is a real, although rarely articulated, belief that once a woman reproduces, she's going to be both asexual and brain dead for years to come, not to mention a 'problem employee' because those dratted brats of hers are going to be more important than the company picnic, etc.
Consider also that far and away the majority of first affairs - the husband's first affairs - happen during the wife's first pregnancy.
Most women know this stuff happens, on some level, and quite understandably and justifiably don't like it; it's a load of hooey, it's terribly oppressive and destructive, it's unfair, it's wrong. Unfortunately, instead of thinking about the source of the problem and then pushing back against the cultural prejudice and stupidity, the usual response is to lash out at any woman who hasn't been sucked into the quicksand with the rest.
It's the old crab bucket thing again. Pull everyone down into the mess, instead of realizing that we could easily join hands - or claws - to climb out of it, instead.
Whoo. End of diatribe.
Yes, introductions are fake here in this culture, and especially in this nation. I think that's because there's very little here, in the way of human interaction, that doesn't start out false. And I think that's because there's very little here, in the way of human interaction, that doesn't start out as a contest.
*Edit in: interesting corollary: there also seems to be a definite INCREASE in status for men, when they sire children, and oddly enough, even more of an increase in status for them if they manage to evade much if not all of the actual responsibility for their care. "Real men" don't do "women's work".... but ahh, they certainly do cause the need for most of it! Interesting, that we find this combination of irresponsibility and evasiveness admirable - on any level. One would think it would be regarded as the shameful dishonest manipulation that it is.
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Portia, CB.. really enjoyed reading your posts on this subject.
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Lighter, i wasn't bored and do have something to do but your story was fun and so human :D
next time a power suit turns to you and asks what your story is......?
Storm, diatribe enjoyed 8)
really my answer is just "no" and then to why not, is "it didn't happen" and let people think what they want to about that. It's such a deeply personal question that it doesn't deserve any further information. I'm under zero obligation to explain my life to anyone!
The fun starts when pregnant women ask me if I'm pregnant too. It's happened twice to me. The look on their faces when i say "no, I just have a big tummy"! :D 8)
Lighter, I really did enoy your story and really want to know what you'll do next time! (there's bound to be a next time ....?)
bye for now, P
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CB,
I realized as I wrote that my idea might come across that way. Actually, to revise, I mean to say that once I KNOW a person I don't feel I need to hide anymore. See, for me, the custom of "everything is peachy" extended far beyond the normal handshake into friendship territory. I NEVER admitted to a weakness or fault, even to those I was supposedly close to. So that is what I meant by being honest now.
To those of you who dodn't breed... thenk you. I think there are many who don't want or need children to make their lives full. I thought I was one of those. Thankfully, having produced some offspring, I love them tremendously and want them always to be happy. I tip my hat off to mothers of humans and mothers of nature, pets, etc.
Great, great topic.
Love you all,
Beth
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on their faces when i say "no, I just have a big tummy"! :D 8)
Lighter, I really did enoy your story and really want to know what you'll do next time! (there's bound to be a next time ....?)
bye for now, P
Yes, there will be plenty of next times and I'm still going to be asking them "why they want to know?" then sidestepping the question.
Is that the best way to deal with it? No idea but I'm certainly not going to hand out personal information and let them talk on and on about themselves when I'm not interested.
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Beth, you get it. thank you. What matters isn't the ability to reproduce. It's the ability to love.
Portia, you are right of course if it's an innocent question. But if it were an innocent question, it wouldn't be asked in that way. I figure if I jolt someone, it's an object lesson, and maybe some small compensation to all the women who've gone through IVF to no avail, all the women who have been put off marriage due to molestation, etc., and find themselves on the receiving end of this kind of inquisition without any way to defend themselves.
And that business about single mothers having a hard time finding good men? It's because the men don't want to be responsible for some other man's kids. Now, how much more conditional can it get, than that? And how much more clear and obvious does a warning sign have to be?
There's a lot under the surface that never gets examined. ;-)
Re Mommy Wars: war? What war? All I see is folks being taken advantage of, unfairly, on both sides, and being defensive about it with the very people who could be their strongest allies, if only common sense could trump unhealthy competition. :roll: Good old Divide-And-Conquer. It never fails. Alas.
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Portia:
I forgot to say that most of yesterday's "How are you?" greetings were annoying me a bit.
My general response, all day to them was,
"LIVIN THE DREAM, BABY!"
This made the UPS man laugh. He knows my story, is genuine and honestly does care. Happily married and identifies with an awful divorce and relationship. No agenda.
I also gave my favorite server that response last night upon greeting him. He wasn't QUITE as amused, looked a little surprised really. I think he has an agenda of his own. He expects me to do one of two things.
Be chipper and bright and smile and say "fine."
Complain about my situation in a stioc comical manner.
Wasn't in the mood to do either yesterday.
Another time someone asked and I said "Fine" brightly then shook my head,
looked down and said, "but not really, no."
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Hey All!
Oh Lighter! That was a wonderful example of social bs! Personally, I'm with you saying: "What do you want to know for?". You could even ask a few more questions about their answers and then act totally bored and turn away, start yakking with PTG or whoeverelse happens to be around. The message is: none of his beeswax!
I also vote for shoving the plate of fries over to the power suit and saying: "You just bought 'em. Enjoy!"
IMO, him saying: "So what's your story?" was the first rude and slightly aggressive move. It's not socially polite, is it, as a first greeting to a lady? Maybe there are some good reasons for our social niceties and all?
About handshakes: A strong, hard, gripping one indicates a bully......or at least.....very aggressive person.
Weak and floppy......means similar personality?
Firm, not too hard but confident shake......similar person?
I dunno. I guess. I think my handshake changes depending on whom I'm shaking with? I've had people hurt my hand!! (that was back when I knew nothing about handshakes and was way too gentle in the process). Now, I'd exclaim: "Ouch! Take it easy!! That hurt!!" But back then, I'd be too timid to dare say such a thing. I'd feel impolite and aggressive myself. Ha!! But the hard, hurtful handshake was actually the impolite, aggressive start of things and so now I think I'd stand up for myself and not let the person away with it. I have a "who gives a fig" attitude, most of the time, with such people. Anyone who crushes my hand on first meeting is not gonna be in my face for long. They turn me off, I guess, the minute I meet them.
But what if a person could perfect their handshake? What if they could give the impression of being fair and confident but really, they aren't? I think I've done that too, in situations where I was actually quite afraid!
Faked it!! ( :shock:)
I guess if your hand gets half wrenched off, it's a good clue about who you're dealing with but I'm suspicious of even the most acceptable shakes because I believe it's a skill that can be learned and not necessarily an indication of anything (although I do agree, it is a bit of a social statement and a soaking wet palm tells me all I wanna know).
CB wrote:
We have all kinds of little social cues in our culture. The hand shake. The polite small talk. Even the bragging and posturing gives me a clue about the character of the person I am talkling to...
It might be an indication of the character of the person I'm talking with or it might be an indication of what the person wants me to believe about their character. Not so easy to tell the difference sometimes, I think.
I'm not sure I want to do away with all the social rules though. Imagine a world where it was ok to crush a hand, or bear hug a person and exclaim: "What in tarnation kinda hair colour is that? It's gotta be a joke!!!"
Imagine if it was ok to just lay it all out....: "Hi. I was abused in childhood so please have patience with me, as I've missed much of "normal" life and am recovering, rebuilding, healing, the whole kit and caboodle"?
Or how about if we were really honest at those job interviews: "Well, I do tend to be a bit grumpy when I have PMS and I don't get along well with every single person alive and can't stand the smell of tuna, so whoever brings it for lunch will earn my immediate disgust!"
Who wants to hire someone based on negative stuff? Not me. I wanna know what you're going to offer and how you're going to improve things, not how you'll possibly upset the apple cart. I already know you're not perfect because no one is.
Just my ramble this Friday.
Sela
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Hi, all,
Lighter, I wonder what he was communicating by doing that.
I'm pretty sure those boys were both marking their territory by taking food from my plate. The Server used to be a professor and now he's waiting on men he considers/desires to be equals. It's a tough spot and I see him struggle with that and then some cocky little well dressed short MARRIED guy gets fry fry's from me! THE NERVE! Well, he just figured he was closer to me and betttter aquainted and HE could get some FRY FRY'S TOO!
Doesn't that just sound like the silliest thing, lol?
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Oy Sela.
Someone was hired in a place where I worked based on positive self-presentation.
Once off probation, they destroyed an automatic parking gate because it didn't open fast enough for them, assaulted one of the janitors, screamed at the Department Head, screamed at the Deputy Department head, launched vendettas against every member of the support staff [they were such an email stalker that everyone had a special inbox where their messages went, so they could avoid the constant bombardment, because this person sent a message every ten minutes wanting to know why the target hadn't done whatever it was that was demanded of them. Usually, they hadn't done it because it was THIS PERSON'S JOB].
This is only a partial list.
When confronted about the egregious and abusive behavior, they would burst into tears and insist that they deserved special treatment because their mom was psychotic and their dad was a violent drunk.
When last I checked, the upper uppers had done nothing constructive about any of this, but they had promoted this person twice, because otherwise they might cryyyyyyy....
I don't think focusing exclusively on the positive was terribly wise, in this instance. Do you?
PS: this is all true.
;-).
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Hoy Stormy,
Nothing is absolute eh?
Sela
ps: on edit: Not everything is absolute is more accurate maybe?
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My jaw is hanging open still Storm. I'm amazed at how my feet are held to the fire and how awful people get away with murder cause no one wants to deal with them.
Sela, loved the "push the plate at fancy suit and say 'you bought em now, fella'" response.
It could be delivered in so many ways. My other friend delivered the line without any humor and it was so confrontational and hurt sounding. Blech.
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Hoy Stormy,
Nothing is absolute eh?
Sela
ps: on edit: Not everything is absolute is more accurate maybe?
Absolutely! ;-)
Lighter, I'm flabbergasted too. What I've described here is all the action of ONE PERSON. The amount of destructiveness an organization will tolerate, rather than stand up to someone like this, just blows me away. But God forbid a well-behaved, conscientious, steady worker comes in half an hour late one day, wearing flip-flops.
It's insane.
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Oh Lighter!
My other friend delivered the line without any humor and it was so confrontational and hurt sounding. Blech.
For sure! Wouldn't that be like giving big supply? Isn't that likely what they dude wants anyhow? A reaction he can eat up?
Much better to smile and not let his audacity have an effect (not that I can always do it that way...it's so easy to sit and read and think of a lovely response....but in the situation.....feeling the feelings....trying to think of what is best to do/say?....I understand why you said nothing. Half the time, I ignore when in doubt. Why not? It's almost as good!)
:D Sela
PS: The other half of the time......I say/do the wrong thing. :oops:
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Absolutely! :wink:
Positively! :mrgreen:
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lighter, the french fry wars. ick ick ick.
basically there wasn't much you could do about Loud Boy except christen him appropriately, which you did. an abusive N from the get go.
i'm going to float an alternative theory about the server taking your fry. i think he was sending a signal to loud boy, again, by doing that. it didn't work the way i think he intended, but i do believe he was trying to interpose himself between you and loud boy, to protect you. that fits with the references to loud boy's wife. loud boy claims you by eating your food, and the server puts himself in between you by taking a fry afterwards.
as far as talking over loud boy to ptg, good for you.
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Going back to tt's original post,
It seems to me things are a little more complicated than putting on a friendly and optimistic facade simply for the sake of deceiving others and social climbing. For many people social norms such as these are used as camoflage for destructive behavior and of course it does breed a certain callousness in that people are usually expected to present things as being fine even though they aren't. But social norms are seldom developed for the exceptions, they are usually developed for the general. And generally it would be most disquieting and lead to a great deal of harm for openess and absolute honesty to be dispensed with every handshake. The fact is it is usually quite a burden when someone unloads their grief, faults and complaints on another and it seems quite reasonable for a society to expect mere acquaintances to reserve unburdening themselves on each other.
TT questioned whether the ritual of putting on the pretense of 'all is well' hadn't any value. I shudder to think of a society in which that face is not put forward. Are there in fact any, save some tiny famiial tribe in tha Amazon somewhere? I believe it is not only good manners not to burden mere acquaintances with our problems it is also quite probably a defensive action to protect ourselves from giving potential predators information they can use to harm us. Not only that, but for the relatively genuine among us I suspect it is an attempt to project our ideal selves; what we strive for. Those who have integrity are not putting up a facade when they put their best foot forward, those without integrity will deceive no matter what the societal norms are, and would have even more power in a society where they were still free to conceal their weaknesses and faults but the less predatory weren't.
I believe this to be one of those norms which is criticized because it is abused but is far better than the alternative, because it puts a much needed restraint on that part of human nature that is best kept in check any way we can.
A facade of stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity encourages people to be self reliant and to use sparingly the emotional and material resources of others. It's certainly no panacea, in fact it's a compromise, but the alternative seems to me to lead inexorably to a stagnant, even more abusive and hopelessly vulnerable society.
mud
PS. Lighter, I agree with Stormy about why server boy took your fry. My first reaction when I read it was that he was protecting you from an unwanted advance not claiming you as his own. Not sure I would have done it that way myself unless they were nice fresh, parsley-garlic fries, but to each his own.
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lighter, the french fry wars. ick ick ick.
as far as talking over loud boy to ptg, good for you.
Looking back, fancy pant boy prolly considered being ignored a very violent act. Hence, his moving, was supposed to shame and punish me. That may not have worked, but he scored when he lit the cigar, lol. Darnit; )
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i'm going to float an alternative theory about the server taking your fry. i think he was sending a signal to loud boy, again, by doing that. it didn't work the way i think he intended, but i do believe he was trying to interpose himself between you and loud boy, to protect you. that fits with the references to loud boy's wife. loud boy claims you by eating your food, and the server puts himself in between you by taking a fry afterwards.
I don't think he took the fry when loud boy was paying attention. That's why it struck me the way it did. IF he wanted to do that, he could have brought me more frys and moved the other dish to the side. That would have made more sense to me. Taking the fry was just one more icky icky thing and I can't believe things like that happen to me.
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I wanted to comment on something .. It is about social conventions and how N's just say"Screw it" to them. It is like the N is above "social norms". When I was 14 and gave up myself, I tried to be like my Mother. Nobody told me that she was crazy and that I should try to retain myself,not model myself after some one who had no sense.
I tried to model myself after my mother. I tried to be "honest". To her, being honest was violating other's boundaries. I guess that in trying to be like her, I lost my sense of boundaries,which I had before..
I look back now and I realize that a person needs to have social norms to function in a social group. I think of people who are "gracious" or elegant. Much of that is respecting other's boundaries and trying to make someone else comfortable. rather than being occupied with yourself An N is always thinking about what makes THEM feel and look good. Their honesty is just a way to show off about how unconventional they are. It is just N's version of disregarding norms because norms do not apply to N's.N's are "too superior " to follow rules that other's follow.
When I got my dog, I read a lot of books on dogs. They have a social order with social gestures and signals. This allows them to live as a unit. My dog now follows those same rules in our family .My mother is very jealous that I have a good dog . She made our family dog really neurotic and then we had to give it away. My point is that an N can't even respect the boundaries and needs of an animal.
I think of people who I admire and think of as genuine. They are not "tell it all in the first 5 minutes". They have a self possession. They know how to conform to social cues while not losing themselves . This is the main point of my whole post.
How do I maintain my "wholeness" and be a genuine person at the same time.? This is my question. I am trying to figure this one out.
If a person disregards social norms, then they make other people uncomfortable. So, I guess that this is a balance like everything else.If anyone even understands my post, I would love to hear your opinions.
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Wow, this thread is like a rope with a lot of frayed ends reaching from the core... it is such a rich posting and I am afraid I am contributing to making one more of those tributaries here... but, Storm, I had to comment on one thing...
You spoke about single moms and the men who don't want to take on responsibility. Were my husband to leave, die, whatever, I would be VERY hard pressed to take on any man until the kids were well into their own lives. A man would have to be VERY special for me to ever entertain the idea of letting him influence my children.
I fall on the side of putting the kids before any personal relationships - I think because as a child I meant so little.
Sorry all for getting off the path here, but I needed to get this out.
Love, Beth
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Beth, I agree with you! Believe it or not, I seriously won't let a man into my home - on the most casual pretext, even - until I have good reason to believe he is genuinely kind to animals. I know, it's not the same, but it's a close as I get in my own life.
Consider this: why are there so few men you'd be willing to risk letting into your life and your children's lives, if [God forbid] you ended up raising your kids alone?
Because: Most of 'em [not all, but most] wouldn't care enough, they wouldn't invest enough, they wouldn't be there in a healthy supportive way, they wouldn't teach character and integrity. 'Cause they just can't extend themselves to care for another man's kids.
Which is exactly what I'm sayin', sista.
God bless you and your husband and your kids and keep you all together and safe, for always.
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Storm, I think it would matter how he treated my animals too :) Henry is one of the family, and I would be unable to accept someone who didn't adore him.
It's funny, my husband doesn't like the guinea pigs as much as we do. He grew up in a house with no animals and wasn't even too happy about Henry at first. When the piggies had babies, he was partial to one of them. But for the most part, he would be fine without animals. I am grateful that he has grown to love them, or I feel it might have caused some divide. Kind of sad, but the animals make me happy and mean so much to me. The kids are very stuck on them as well. At any rate, I think you are wise to make sure a man would accept ALL of you and your little ones to boot ;)
Off to bed... once again up too late.
Love, Beth
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wow, what a great thread teartracks
I must apologize as I've only read p. 1
Had to respond because there is so much going on here, but lighter, your post simply cracked me up, and was toof Funny.
more in a sec..
bean
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TT, wonder if this is going where you might have imagined :)
Lighter
thought about your fries night and the problem with the married guy. Thing is, I’m not sure by the time he asks me what my story is, that I want to engage with him at all. And if I reply with a question, even a confrontational/brush off question, it’s engaging and he’ll want to reply – and so on. I don’t know. In answer to what’s my story, (in a perfect world) I might smile and say “you don’t need to know” and then get up and move away. I mean, sometimes life’s too short to interact with such jerks. Do I think giving him a lesson will have any effect on him? If so, maybe I’ll engage, but if not, heck, it’s not worth the effort, to me. Engaging with folks like that is such an effort and it’s not for my benefit really. Maybe you have much more energy than me!
I like ‘livin the dream baby!” :D. It would be so out of character for me. I might try it. 8)
CB
what’s a mommy war? I wondered if this was happening on another thread (I don’t read all threads) then I wondered, because of Storm’s reply, if you meant us talking about not having kids. Having kids or not having kids isn’t a war of two sides (although sure the media over here like to encourage a ‘for’ and ‘against’ thing between women). I’m not opposed to anyone having children, although I think there are some good logical reasons for world population control. I do object to being asked why I don’t have kids by people who do have them, when they question me as though I’m a freak of nature, saying things like “but it’s what every woman wants, it’s only natural!” and other such ill-considered knee-jerk reactions. People want you to be like them otherwise they get scared and want to hunt you down for the kill…ooops….well that’s what it feels like sometimes. I don’t know CB, it’s so hard not to fall into ‘us’ and ‘them’ sometimes. Takes such an effort when the easy thing for me to think is: it’s everyone else! The world is BONKERS.
Storm
Re: the innocent question, I know, it depends on the person. Sometimes I figure that the woman asking is asking out of total ignorance, like they’ve been in a vacuum since 1955, so I go easy. Otherwise, I agree, if a lesson will do any good and is worth the effort, it’s worth a try. But I get tired. And sometimes they ask out of that morbid curiosity to have a good look at someone else’s grief/problems while tut-tutting about the unfairness of life or some such BS (before they go and tell the rest of the neighbourhood, in sympathy with your plight). Etc.
Men don't want to be responsible for some other man's kids? Well yes, finding a man who would be can’t be easy at all. But the reasons are obvious and I ain’t about to blame any man for being subservient to his biology. We are hugely slaves to biology one way or another I reckon. I just wish we understood that more, and a whole load of other things.
Sela
it is a bit of a social statement and a soaking wet palm tells me all I wanna know).
haha! I have a problem which might explain my dislike of hand-shaking. I sweat through my hands and feet. Quite a bit. Enough information? :D If I have a job interview (heaven forbid), I have to wipe my hands before meeting anyone. It’s a pain. And if I carry a wallet (plastic/leather) I have to use my fingertips otherwise I leave sweaty imprints! Oh please stop me now!
"Well, I do tend to be a bit grumpy when I have PMS and I don't get along well with every single person alive and can't stand the smell of tuna, so whoever brings it for lunch will earn my immediate disgust!"
I’d hire you, I love it! and I’d eat tuna every day to get you over the ‘problem’! then work up to really smelly boiled-egg sandwiches.
Might even take my shoes off at lunchtime :shock:
Ami
How do I maintain my "wholeness" and be a genuine person at the same time?
I don’t know Ami if I do it, and if I do, how I do it. Being ‘genuine’ is a feeling right? You may feel that I’m being genuine and vice-versa, but what’s that feeling really….(musing here)….i suppose for me it would be a feeling that in the interaction we’re exchanging information equally, reciprocally, that there’s a rhythm to the flow of information and cues etc. How do I maintain ‘me’ and my ‘wholeness’ – you mean, not go against my core beliefs, my values? Not ‘sell myself short’ or indeed stretch myself too far from what I think as the truth? Partly maybe forgetting about ‘me’ and thinking about ‘you’, partly observing ‘me’ and my feelings – that will tell me if I’m entering water that feels wrong to the core me. So that would be different for everyone I guess. Does that make any sense whatsoever? Wholeness and being genuine (truthful) go together I think, can you be one without the other, really? (Being genuine is being genuine to myself, not to anyone else).
Hi Bean :D
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Hi Ami, Hi P:
Do y'all think it's also about self-consciousness?
For me, asking myself if I'm "being authentic" will instantly turn me into a pile of nervous twitches. Normally, I engage with people easily. But when I stop and quiz myself or turn on the Authenticometer, engagement's over, I'm taking my own pulse, sniffing my armpits, avoiding eye contact, yakking too much.
When I just do it, meet someone in the sense of human-to-human greeting with an assumption that I keep myself safe (not them), and don't anticipate, it's usually okay. If I plan my attitude, it feels fake.
more rambling,
Hops
PS--except for the times when it's exactly the opposite and I plan my attitude like crazy. Sheesh. Glad I never promised to be consistent. :oops:
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Thanks Bean, lol
Portia:
It's a work in progress with regard to handling myself with more poise and confidence in public. This goes for meeting and interacting with women, as well as men. Married or otherwise.
I used to always assume people had good intentions. I've always been blindsided by witty snide jabs and out and out hostility. Nosy aggressive men. Lesbians that made me feel hunted in the grocery store or Gypsies that crowded me in line at the local grocery store and touched things in my cart, lol. Mean mean mean girls in a group, lol.... and I'm talking over 30 who maybe dated my fiance 2 times and ended up too drunk to make out each time so now, that they're having sex with the fiance's best (married) friend and is attending the social function cause his wife invited her, is taking pot shots at me bc I didn't see it coming.
Let's face it, I've had to start being very aware of my surroundings and assuming everone has an agenda, if not bad intentions aimed for my head.
For now, this means I'm not forthcoming on demand, simply bc people corner and question me. It means I'm eyeballing people and letting them swing for a minute before I respond. And when I do, it's not giving anything of myself up. Esp if I'm not interested in interacting with them.
I'm not interested in slamming anyone, just keeping my boundaries in tact.
Sad but there it is. I also try to keep from becoming a hermit. That's my tendency anyway. So, I'll keep testing the water and working on my poise skills.
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Hi all:
Hey Portia:
I have to wipe my hands before meeting anyone.
I'd never get the sweaty hand information from you because you'd take the precaution of eliminating it immediately prior to our first handshake. Thankyou in advance.
Might even take my shoes off at lunchtime :shock:
Lucky for me I don't get PMS, do get along with most people and don't mind tuna or egg salad, or the odd stinky foot, for that matter! I'd work for you.
Thanks for the giggle P!
Hops: I doubt it's as simple as identifying the character of anyone by rating their handshake. No worries. You're humanness comes through loud and clear, I bet, to other humans.
Mud:
A facade of stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity encourages people to be self reliant and to use sparingly the emotional and material resources of others.
Exactly an attitude worth embracing, I agree. We are, in the end, responsible for our own lives and to do otherwise than you've described stops us from doing for ourselves, and puts the onus on everything and everyone external to us. That should be on a banner somewhere!
Lighter: Too bad Storm's knight in shining armour description of the server french fry guy was off. It's a nice thought though. But then again, who needs a white knight?
CB:
N's think they have already arrived.
They're on a trip alright! :D
Sela
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Hi All,
Thanks for turning this thread into a stimulating discussion. I wrote parts of this post a couple of days ago and parts of it today. Hopefully it will make sense. I tried, OK!
Portia,
but if someone starts asking what I do or how I live, I’m likely to be honest and folks, in general, don’t seem to like that. Some people do though, and it’s so refreshing when honesty is met with acceptance or even a mutual exchange of truly interesting information.
And there's the rub. First handshakes/encounters are essentially a marketing tool of self. We are taught to lead with out strongest suit, expand on it, enhance it, trade on it, guard it, flaunt it and protect it at all cost. On the surface and maybe in reality, this seems pretty self serving. But on balance, the unspoken code has an inherant respond in kind reciprocity feature. After all, it's not good to pour new wine into old wineskins.
I personally am noodling the thought that too often our schooling in how to build a balanced and mutually nurturing relationship gets stuck in that 'handshake' stage, which in my opinion is about the equivalent of kindergarten where relationship building is concerned. On leaving a presenting social scene, or work scene, or conference scene, one immediately transitions right back, is indeed propelled back into their other world, their real world of loneliness, compulsive self examination, disordered thinking and a myriad of secret miseries. There are exceptions, of course, but shouldn't a culture produce more of the latter than the former? Or is my perception of how things really are completely skewed?
Loved the Dogbert bit!
Portia - TT, wonder if this is going where you might have imagined
Ah Portia, remember INTJ's, don't think that way! :D
And by the way, have you ever considered applying anti perspirant to your palms on those occasions when you absolutely must do the handshake gig? Just a thought!
JanetG
About asking, Do you have children? can be touchy on several fronts. It's touchy for me because I lost two of my three children to sudden death in a private plane crash. When people ask me, Do you have children, or How many children do you have, I really don't know what to say. Though two of them are dead, I still have three children. If I say, I have three children, the next question is usually, Where do they live? Then I feel very uncomfortable because it requires that I give further details. A way to avoid it would be to say, I have one child (which I simply can't bear to hear from my own mouth, because I have three beloved children). So I end up givng the briefest possible explanation and choose to the belief that their question held no malice.
Hi Beth,
I think overall this is an American trait - for whatever reason. As a whole, our culture leans toward the positive and also toward over-exuberance in general.
You're right. Compared to other western cultures, we Americans are like adolescents on steroids. We bounce around the feet of the world like friendly puppies as if to say, Oh, hey look at me. Pat me on the head. Give me a bacon bit and we'll be friends. I'm really nice, pinky swear, I really am! Wherever one travels around the world, identifying 'the Americans' is so easy because of our not yet refined friendly puppy mannerisms. Again, seasoned travelers may not exhibit the friendly puppy mannerisms, but I guarantee you that if it's a group of American students or a mixture of folk from other cultures, the American stands out because of the over-exhuberance you mention. I'm not criticizing, just an observation and personal opinion. I love my country, and its people.
Ami,
Humor, YES! I wish I were not so intense...Do you think there might be a humor school somewhere I could attend for a quick course?
Ami - How do I maintain my "wholeness" and be a genuine person at the same time.? This is my question. I am trying to figure this one out.
Me too!
CB,
We have all kinds of little social cues in our culture. The hand shake. The polite small talk. Even the bragging and posturing gives me a clue about the character of the person I am talkling to.
This is what has my mind in a whirr lately. It's the chasm that exists between the acceptable social cues we are so masterfully taught and our flagrant exhibition of them even when the hand we grasp in that initial handshake may be that of fellow human who is barely surviving life on any level. And, who is socially forbidden to say so for fear of being marginalized in just about every facet of their life. On the other extreme if a soul comes along who is given to refreshing others with honesty, acceptance, mutuality, a willingness to address some of the deeper, less talked about human issues , they quite possibly may be rebuffed, and viewed with a jaundiced eye. In both instances, I think it's because we've been conditioned generally to feel comfortable with others most often only if we are operating according to the established code of that first handshake which falsely communicated that all is well when it really isn't. This may be no more than a weak working theory, but it has occupied my mind a lot this last ten days or so. I don't have the solution I just know that a terrible void exists between a) The first handshake and b) The opposite extreme of our humaness, our utter vulnerability. We are functionally illiterate in our understanding of the big picture of our humaness. It doesn't help unbend my mind pretzels that I am a big picture thinker.
lighter -
Loved the story. After you've been peed on so much, it's just the most natural thing in the world to get pissed off!
The Suit's opening line, So what is your story was, I believe, a dead giveaway that he was setting you up to listen to his story and maybe to share your entire meal????. :D
What do you think the Suit would have said if you'd pushed the plate of fries in front of him and told the server to put them on his bill. Then order another for yourself? Ooops, just saw that Sela made the same suggestion. Right on, Sela!
Sela - Wouldn't that be like giving big supply? Isn't that likely what they dude wants anyhow? A reaction he can eat up?
For sure...love it!
Storm - Yes, introductions are fake here in this culture, and especially in this nation. I think that's because there's very little here, in the way of human interaction, that doesn't start out false. And I think that's because there's very little here, in the way of human interaction, that doesn't start out as a contest.
What you say brings to mind Alexis DeTocqueville's DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA, where he made some staggeringly astute observations and predictions about America in its infancy that ended up being dead on.
A part of growth and maturing is the adolescent stage. I'm not putting us down, just observing and remembering a Frenchman, was it the president? reminding our President not long ago that France was a very old country. Our adolescence shows, but France's nose isn't getting any shorter, is it?
Storm - And that business about single mothers having a hard time finding good men? It's because the men don't want to be responsible for some other man's kids. Now, how much more conditional can it get, than that? And how much more clear and obvious does a warning sign have to be?
Storm - Because: Most of 'em [not all, but most] wouldn't care enough, they wouldn't invest enough, they wouldn't be there in a healthy supportive way, they wouldn't teach character and integrity. 'Cause they just can't extend themselves to care for another man's kids.
I know you know it, but it's just not always like that! With dyed in the wool N's, and a variety of other abnormal approaches to life, yes, but not across the board.
My two widowed daughters-in-law each found husbands who are the exception to your observation. They have been totally invested in fathering my six grandchildren whose natural father died. They've worked hard to provide for them, encouraged, and nurtured each one into adulthood (the youngest of the six is now 18). Neither of the men had money, But they put their shoulder to the wheel with my daughters-in-law with resolve to be good parents to my son's children, even paying college tuition up front so the kids don't graduate up to their ears in debt. I am very grateful!
bean - wow, what a great thread teartracks
Glad you like it bean. I'm enjoying it too!
CB - P.S. Mud, I loved your explanation of the value of social norms. You did a good job of getting to the basics.
Yes, you did Mud, though I have ended up challenging parts of your thinking.
Mud -
A facade of stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity encourages people to be self reliant and to use sparingly the emotional and material resources of others.
Having been thoroughly steeped in the belief that a facade of stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity (is that an oxymoron?) and using the emotional and material resources of others sparingly and with great care (going green) is exactly what caused me to crash and burn seven years ago. The childhood abuse was displaced (thanks for introducing us to that term Storm.) with a counterfeit belief system that taught me stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity ('the handshake' that said, all is well, no not well, very, very well). I understand that you're not talking in absolutes in your comments, but there's a missing link, a huge void in how we perceive and address what lies between the extremes mentioned here. I can't reconcile how things are on the subject of 'first handshakes' compared to what I think the next logical steps could or should be, but my mind keeps telling me I ought to try. I suppose it's the idealist in me.
tt
Smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend
Smiling faces show no traces of the evil that lurks within
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
The truth is in the eyes
Cause the eyes don't lie, amen
Remember a smile is just
A frown turned upside down
My friend let me tell you
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth, uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
I'm telling you beware
Beware of the pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Jealousy (jealousy)
Misery (misery)
Envy I tell you, you can't see behind smiling faces
Smiling faces sometimes they don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
I'm telling you beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
Listen to me now, beware
Beware of that pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Your enemy won't do you no harm
Cause you'll know where he's coming from
Don't let the handshake and the smile fool ya
Take my advice I'm only try' to school ya
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Teartracks:
Congrats on keeping that post organized and concise. I'm truly envious of your ability to keep all the posters thoughts organized and respond to them mindfully.
Today I'm enviouse, anyway. I couldn't do that to save my life yesterday though responding thoughtfully to a few posts, yours and CB's included, was one thing I wanted to do well. I'm back to multi tasking with the children and I admit it, it's not a strong suit of mine.
It's Ok though. You said about anything I would have wished to say in yours; )
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Hi lighter,
Then the server reached over and peed in them too: /
He's nothing if not just a tad protective normally, and I've only been about 5 times but he knows my story, but I was unhappy he stepped past protective and asserted some awful mail marking ritual then said he's glad he doesn't have to be single or date again, gave a YIKES face and walked off. Normally he down plays the girlfriend and acts like he'd be happy to escort me around the world, lol. This sounds a bit improbable but I promise you, this drama was over MY dinner last night and I'd never step on his girlfriend's toes in any way.
I find it interesting that the server the one who knows your story was also the one who peed on your fries. Since the suit is a regular, is it possible that he was already privy to part of it from the mouth of the server who knows you? Is it not odd that the suit asked the question the way he did?
tt
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Dang, TT...you amaze me.
Sometimes you just NAIL a really big thing in such precise and eloquent ways. Like this:
our schooling in how to build a balanced and mutually nurturing relationship gets stuck in that 'handshake' stage, which in my opinion is about the equivalent of kindergarten where relationship building is concerned. On leaving a presenting social scene, or work scene, or conference scene, one immediately transitions right back, is indeed propelled back into their other world, their real world of loneliness, compulsive self examination, disordered thinking and a myriad of secret miseries. There are exceptions, of course, but shouldn't a culture produce more of the latter than the former?
My response is YESYES! But we have a crazed culture. Repressed, scary, lonely.
CB, I think the "next step" missing is such a good point. For me, it's been the UU community w/o which I'd be lost. Especially in the small groups. But I bear responsibility too. Someone asked me today, how are you? This time I bit off the "fine" and wound up telling them for about 2 minutes that there's no real support system in the culture for in-home family caregivers, and how it is. She listened caringly, I wasn't upset but it felt so good to give an honest and more depth-ful (?) answer. I was immediately lighter. I didn't need rescuing--just being heard, even for 2 minutes (and having the chance to articulate something important) was a lovely moment in my morning.
So now maybe the next time someone says How are you, and we're not in a crowd or anything, I'll pause again, and consider what I want to say.
Hops
love
Hops
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Could someone explain the women without children vs the women with children issue? Why is there animosity? I don't understand.
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Hi CB,
I think we are feeling the lack of any "next step". We don't have a good place to get to know people on a deeper level. There are usually community sanctioned places for that within a culture, but I wonder if we are losing ours as we become increasingly separated. There have been town halls, town squares, church socials, front porches in the evening, pubs, piazzas, bistros and coffee houses. But we, as a culture, are moving away from those venues and I wonder if we are feeling the loss.
I think what you say is true and that we are indeed feeling the results. As a culture, I think we've lost interest in placing emphasis on first things. We've abandoned the art of 'one anothering.'
lighter - Congrats on keeping that post organized and concise.
I'm not all that. I spent two days parttime on that post. :oops:
Hops - Dang, TT...you amaze me.
Awwww Hops, you're sweet :)]
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hi El,
If you go to www.salon.com and search "Mommy wars" you'll find it mostly an overhyped conflict in print between middle and upper class women over their choice to either work or be at-home moms.
I don't think most mothers, working or not, have THAT much time to criticize each other's choices, but that's what it refers to.
Sort of like Dr. Laura vs. Gloria Steinem (whoops, did Gloria have kids? I dunno...)
Another thought, El--go find a Women's Studies professor. Hand out printouts of your first post here like M&M's to adults like that. Write CONFIDENTIAL on the envelope. Tell them you're seeking "serious, comprehensive mental health and victim services". Women's Studies depts. will be quite tuned in to the subject of abuse.
The local women's shelters, too. THAT is a place to go tell your story. They will know how to hear it. You don't have to be married to an abuser to deserve a hearing.
Hell, you could bring a civil suit against your father for abuse.
Sorry, ideas are running away with me but I want you well and I know you can make this journey. You're SMART.
love
Hops
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Could someone explain the women without children vs the women with children issue? Why is there animosity? I don't understand.
Hi el
The with-or-without-children bit is what I call the 'official excuse'. What's really going on is that some people are simply competitive to the point of insanity, and for some of these people, the decision - or ability - to have and rear children, or not to do so, becomes the focus of the competition. If it weren't that it'd be something else - china painting, or poetry slams, or whose kid is a doctor versus whose kid is in the Peace Corps versus whose kid is a doctor in the Peace Corps.
A lot of women, unfortunately, are taught that the only legitimate means to self-worth is the ability to please others. In this case, competition becomes a contest ostensibly about 'other-pleasing'. Who's more fecund? Who's more nurturing? Who does the Earth Mother thing better? etc. etc. And thus we get the Mommy Wars.
Women who don't need to 'beat' other women don't waste time on this stuff. They realize that life is rough enough on all of us, women, children, and men alike, and most of us have not 'chosen' the lives we have, [as if we could waltz up to God and place an order for a million dollars, a Harvard Law Degree, and a mansion on the Hudson,] but are making the best of what we've been able to cobble together. We don't need to manufacture extra enemies just to keep our minds occupied.
Hope this helps.
PS edit in: just saw Hops' reply, and yes, I would definitely agree that it's the 'leisured classes' who waste the most time fabricating competitions over nothing...
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I am ot sure about passing out letters with personal information to the women's studies department. I will try it tomarrow though. I will ask if anyone has abuse resources and if they do, they I ill give it to them.
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Good luck, El.
At least ask any professor before you speak to her if you may make a request in CONFIDENCE.
If she says yes, then I think she is obligated to respect your privacy.
Proud of you! Round One to EL!
Hops
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Dear El,
You are doing great step be step to get yourself "out of the hole." You are a great inspiration to me.
hugs to you Ami