Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: axa on June 10, 2007, 10:45:55 AM
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Could do with some advice here guys.
Been thinking about Xns visit and I know he has NOT got the message and there is a good chance he will be back.
My overriding gut feeling when he came to my house was that he was SMUG. A bit like the cat who got the cream, he has a subserviant source of supply at home and his daughter while I am alone. I know he does miss all the supply I gave him, the fun, attention, intellectual stimulation etc and my guess is that he came back to establish a "friendship" he could use as a release from the boredom of domestic life. Also, his "friendship" with me would be a good control tool for him to use to keep x/present wife in line. I can just hear him "Axa and I are just good friends, do you not want me to have friends, that is very controlling of you" I am 100% clear that I want nothing to do with him. In fact I feel like he has soiled my life by his unexpected appearance. I know he cannot let go of things = people. My guess is that he saw our encounter as a blip but given time I will soften and we will be best buddies, maybe even get back together again.. NOT. He used to tell me that he could always get round me and I would give in eventually. I think this is what is going on for him.
All I care about right now is how to keep him away and have been thinking about that. I am convinced if I do nothing he will be back and I do not want to have him near me ever again. I have thought about writing to his x/present wife who he now lives with AGAIN - I think if I tell her he came to see me and make it clear that I threw him out and want nothing to do with him, he may get the message. My guess is that he does not have any other source of supply so he needs her to stay and is smart enough to see that it is in his interest to keep away from me and not risk further encounters. He has always banked on the fact that I never squealed on him. I know he would twist and lie about his visit here but the fact that she knows he is playing games again could act as a deterrent. He is like a little boy who hates to be found out and behaves himself when he gets caught lying.
When things were really crazy I know he was telling her one thing and me another so neither of us knew what really was going on. My thinking is that if I make it clear to her how I feel she is in on the picture and he knows I am serious. I have always avoided contact with her because that seemed too crazy to me but I am sure she does not know what he has been up to since I dumped him. It feels like I cut across the lines. Part of me feels that the reason I did not tell her what had been happening was because at some unconscious level I was in denial and had hope that we would work it out. I do not want this to happen now. I believe if I get this message to her it is my best hope of him hearing me.
What do you think. I just want to stop any encounter with him. I know I did the right thing in not engaging with him... but I do know him. And he will be back.
axa
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I vote for contacting her, but give yourself time. Write the letter a couple ways. Write the screaming one that you won't send, first [use red ink, or a red font color if you do it on the computer, so you won't make a mistake and mail it by accident!]. Then give yourself a break for a couple hours or a couple days, and write the grown up one that you will send. In which you start off by apologizing to her, even if you don't feel apologetic, because no matter what he did or why, he had an existing obligation to her first, and you intruded on it... even though he initiated things. After all, you could have said, 'no, you're married.' So an apology for not saying that is a good place to start.
This will get her off the defensive, and you can then move forward from there to say that you know it was wrong to be involved with him, and that you have no intention of doing so again, and that you want her to be aware that he has been making efforts to reconnect with you on some level. You don't know what level, but you don't care, and you can tell her this, too. You know he is not trustworthy - look what he did to his own wife with you as an accomplice - and you wish to make amends to her, and you want her to know what is going on as part of that process of making amends.
Make it very clear that you are out of this, that you have no intention of going back into it, and that you are sending this and putting it in writing as a way of making that intention into the equivalent of a written guarantee to her.
Give yourself time to edit and cool down.
Then take this version to your bank, make a copy, have the copy notarized, and send the notarized copy. To her. By registered mail, with her signature required for delivery, so that he can't intercept it and prevent her receiving it. You can tell her you've notarized it and kept the original in case she ever needs to cite it for legal purposes. [This implying that she might use it as evidence against him. That being something you'd consent to. And you are protecting yourself by sending a notarized copy so that it cannot be falsified by her or him, to cause you damage later on.]
Just suggestions, but I'm serious about the registered mail thing. You want to make sure that he has no ability to disrupt this. Also, if he has the gall to show up at your doorstep again, you have documented your disinterest in no uncertain terms, and can use that if you need to.
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Part of me wants you to ignore him and her and their life together and what goes on or doesn't go on between them
Don't give any of this another thought.
Part of me wants to help you figure out what you're going to say to the wife, lol. He should have some light shined on his sick manipulative behavior. She should get a heads up if only bc it cramps his style, IMO. ::rapid nodding of head::
I don't want to see you waste another minute dwelling on him. ::shaking head::
On the other hand..... he really deserves to get smhacked by you and by her. ::nodding::
On the other hand, you have better things to do with your time, Right? ::nodding::
See where this is going?
I'm just not healthy enough yet to know where to stop in the seesawing, lol.
Let me know which one you choose and I'll support you.
::whispering:: Secretly I'm hoping you stop thinking about him and enjoy a wonderful life without another visit.
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I agree with Stormchild, Axa. I think you should contact her, and I would do the registered mail thing, otherwise she might not get the letter.
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Eh..... your XN's wife already KNOWS he's a lier, a deceiver, a manipulator and a cheater, lol.
You're taking the time to REMIND her of this is a waste, IMO.
SHE ALREADY KNOWS!
<clearing throat>
On the other hand, and isn't there always another hand?
If you are going to contact her I'd do it in writing bc it denotes no emotional content and she can't give you a knee jerk defensive response bc she's embarrassed and horrified and taking it out on you. She can re read it as many times as she likes, and I'm guessing it will be often, then think about what you're trying to say when she's calmer. The best case scenario is that she uses it in a legal offensive against him and begins to understand what it is she's up against with regard to protecting her daughter and helping her learn to cope with a destructive N father.
You may wish to include a well chosen book with that registered letter?
I also like Stormchild's suggestion to have it notorized and sent registered mail. I wouldn't have thought of that but it takes a lot of future worry and guessing out the situation.
Economy of motion and emotion.
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Axa,
I personally would not contact either of them. She is as sick as he is and dances with him still. If and when he showed up at my door the only words I would speak would be Do not come here again I'm calling the police and close the door.
I would not even put another ounce of energy into his actions that letter would be letting him have the power he came there for to emotionally something to you. Even if it's just annoying you. He got something. That letter will prove that he got to you. No power Axa, GIVE HIM NONE. IMO
Deb
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Deb:
I agree with much of what you say. The wife has already figured out that he's cheated with Axa and that her husband is exactly what would be shared in that letter. SHE KNOWS.
When he comes to the door again, I vote Axa go to the other end of the house and enjoy a nice cup of tea and read or watch something good on TV. I'd say shower but I'm afraid he'd break in or just walk in and that simply wouldn't do to be caught so vulnerable, as that.
OK, put on some energetic music and DANCE hard and strong and fast! Ya, that's what I vote! <nodding>
I vote DO NOT ANSWER THE DOOR! No response, no contact NOTHING.
It's been proven that 6 weeks of NO CONTACT is what it takes to break a regular stalker of a bad habit.
NO CONTACT, nothiing at all.
Quiet.
Shhhhhhh.
Any small contact, anything, means you have to start all over again and with N's how many times do you want to keep starting over?
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Lighter,
YES, YES, YES, I agree. Do not answer the door!! Oh yeah I forgot answering the door is even an acknowledgement.
Love
Deb
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Storm,
I did not make myself clear. When I met XN he was legally seperated. Court case, division of assets etc. Legally the marriage was over. In my country this is what people do rather than divorce. She had left him 10 years previously so he was free and single. And according to him he had not had a relationship with anyone in that time. True or false nobody knows. I would not under any circumstances get involved with a married man. So it was not as if I was doing anything wrong. She moved out and had little contact with him or her children. In fact she abandoned their young daughter who lived with him and rarely saw her.
She came back into the picture a year before we split up. I believe because she had not worked in the interim and was running out of money. SHe also has no intention of working and needed a meal ticket. Her daughter is now 18 and she has become like mother earth. I was with her daughter when she would try and call her Mom and saw the hurt she experienced when her mom would not even answer her calls. She is a very strange woman, cold and distant and no doubt damaged from her time with XN.
I could not care less what goes on between the two of them. My objective is that he stays away and knows that I am serious.
More input please
axa
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Me again,
I would not have answered the door if I had known he was outside........ I came around the back of the house and he was standing at the front door. Not changing my lovely hardwood door for that creep LOL. He is a cerebral N and has little interest in women other than supply, not interested in sex.......porn is his thing of choice. She would have no sense of his infidelity. She was a free agent and single also so she may have had relationships in the time they were apart. Bottom line its like being divorced and going back for more........ now thats nuts.
axa
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:Sheepish grin:
Well, that's how nasty rumors get started, lol.
Sorry I said he cheated on ex with you, lol.
My point is, that she's been there done that and she already knows he's got problems. If he's her meal ticket and nothing more, well that's still her problem, not yours.
If your insticts tell you to NOT ANSWER THE DOOR then it will be that much easier to limit contact with him.
If he won't go away from the door and you must leave soon, then call the police and tell them what? Hmmmm tell them that....
1) An unstable ex boyfriend has been banging on your door for x amount of time and won't leave, you feel threatened can they please come and take him away? hee
2) That some strange man is knocking and knocking and you're concerned?
After all, you didn't recognize him the first time he came around.
I just love that you gave him no contact the first time. The only improvement I can see is not letting him in the next time or acknowledging that you even know he's there, if you can help it.
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I am not very good at making myself clear. I did not let him in. He stood in my yard for the few minutes I ignored him and then left. I dont want to be in a position where I am anxious every time someone knocks on my door in case it is him.
I know what you mean CB but my instinct tells me this is probably the only way he will get the message. He will twist my lack of response into something like,,,,,she is angry with me which means she still loves me so i still have a chance in there. I just wish he would drop off the face of the bloody earth. I dont want to be involved with him or her but somehow I have let him off the hook so many times by not coming clean to her. I could not care less what goes on between them but she could hold the key to him leaving me alone. He is getting older and from what I saw on Friday getting less and less attractive by the day. He needs her. He needs to have a source of supply and because of his crazy social skills and general lack of interest he will want to hold onto her as supply. Think she could keep him in line to some extent. Also there is part of me would like her to know what he is playing at and then exit stage left............. just very confused right now.
Axa
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Axa,
I think you have developed a lot of wisdom over the last few months and I would trust your own instincts. I think you are probably seeing him pretty clearly, and you have a good plan. My idea would mean you would have to see him again, and I can see how you don't want to be surprised again. That would really shake me up, too.
Sending her a letter might very well give you the chance to take a deep breath again and not be looking over your shoulder. I think you should do what feels right to you. The important thing is that you get your balance and let them be off balance for awhile if that's what it takes.
CB
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Dear Axa,
It reminds me of how you get an abusive man to stop the abuse--you bring it to the light of day. In this case,contacting the wife will do this. It will stop any potential triangle.
CB made a good point. However, as you said, the final vote should be your gut.
I sense that you just want to 'get it over with" and contacting the wife should do it Love
Ami
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If he were doing that crap to me, showing up unannounced, etc., like that, I would get an ex parte or restraining order against him.
Bones
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Hi Axa,
How's this: you are not wrong if you write her, and you are not wrong if you tough it out w/o writing her.
I understand your impulse.
I echo writing it, sleeping on it, making it completely UNemptional but very calm, adult, and short.
Then again, I think she sounds dishonest and unstable. She could get the letter and do nothing about it, save it as something to ambush him with a year from now, which means it'd do you no good.
Bottom line is, you can't engineer her behavior any more than his.
You could however take the phone-in-hand "Leave my property or I'm calling 9-1-1" and I think it would only be necessary once.
It's also possible that he will not drive 4 hours again to be ignored. Not much supply in that...
hugs
Hops
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Thank you all for your advice. I have decided the worst thing I could do is act out of a place of drama or anger so I am going to sit with it and see how I feel. Unfortunately my T is on holidays at the moment but feel responding from where I was would have been me acting out. I may send the letter or I may not it depends on how I feel once there is some distance from the event. Feel quite grown up.
Thanks everyone,
axa
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I think writing the letter was therapy in itself, for you.
You needed to do it.
You've done it and I'm glad you didn't send it because, guess what?
XN would have been POUNDING on your door after his wife shoved it up is giggly hole, right?
You would have been inviting him right back into your life and he would have come, IMO.
<not so secretly glad Axa didn't send the letter>
I think what you're acting from a place of growth, not acting out. Your T will be impressed, IMO. Good for you.
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Dear Axa,
I am coming to the"place" where I strive to be healthy not normal. By this, I mean,being able to be congruent between my head and my heart. You did the right thing,IMO. You feel at peace with your decision. You feel "centered" about it. I guess that there is usually not one "right" answer in life.
I think that I am in a new phase now. I always wanted to be "normal. Since my mother is a therapist and this is my field also. I had a huge 'standard" over my head. That standard was "normal'. I actually never knew what it was exactly,but I was always striving for it and always feeling that I never got it.
Now, I feel more like I did when I was 14. I want to be centered. Then, I will know what path to take. I will have the connection between my gut and head right.I will feel which way to go.
Axa, you showed a lot of wisdom and maturity in your figuring out what to do,IMO. Love Ami
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Lighter,
Still thinking about the letter. There is no way his "wife" will throw him out she is only a "guest" in his house. When they had their legal seperation she got her settlement and he built a new house. She needs him and will hang on there no matter what happens. I move between the two places of sending it or not sending it.... still sitting with it, realise I am not clear enough to make a decision. The one thing I do know is that he is a bully and hates being found out. His wife seems to have some hold over him though. I think that because she was so much more subserviant than I that he appreciates that she will not challenge him much. Also he is terrified of being on his own.
Ami,
Working on the congruence. Not so sure about the wisdom and maturity...... but I am focused on what will work for me, rather than someone else and that is a new way of being for me.
axa
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Axa:
I didn't mean she'd tell him to leave. I meant she'd get angry and tell him you sent the letter and that being found out WOULD MAKE HIM ANGRY at you bc you ratted on him.
That is why he'd be pounding on your door. Not because he wanted to bring you home and fill a vacancy. Not that he wouldn't try to manipulate and own you again during the visit. WHEW! I don't even like thinking about their disordered minds and trying to guess what they'll do.
I suggest doing nothing. She/ N's wife, is a big girl and she knows a bit about him or she wouldn't have gotten rid of him in the first place.
Take care of yourself. IMO that means NC, with either of them. Simply bc it isn't good for you and I want you to move in a more positive spirit. Just my opinion. Like I said, I'll support you whatever you do. I just don't see anything good coming out of contacting the wife: /
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Hmmm, I'm wavering on writing the letter at all, but you have good reasons for doing so and should follow your heart on that one. You will know for sure what to do once it is written and you've let it sit a couple days.
Postal advice in addition to Stormy's recommendation: send it certified, return receipt requested, RESTRICTED DELIVERY. That way, only she can sign for it and she will have to show ID. Certified vs Registered: Registered is more expensive and often used for jewelry and such things. Certified will be fine in this case as long as you use the other two services with it. She might refuse it altogether--but probably you wouldn't want him getting a hold of it before she reads it, so it seems like Restricted Delivery would keep it out of his hands until she has read it.
I guess I'm wavering on sending a letter at all because it seems like he got in your head again after he surprised you that day, and maybe not writing the letter will get him out of your head again. You know, complete, thorough, NC. But I tend to obsess over such things myself and am coming at it from that angle. I'm projecting here, in other words. So, that's where the follow your heart thing comes in.
PP
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Hi Axa,
Can you take note of how much time since he turned up your mind has circled around and around this idea?
Is it possible writing or not writing her is a shadow of the old attachment? (For me it was obsession, really.)
I really do grasp your reasoning about the woman's restraining influence.
I can just say that I had the most amazingly reasonable-sounding reasons for every single gesture I made in his direction over and over and over again. I felt sick every time I yielded to the impulse, but up until that moment, the divine tension of the obsession was all my brain could register.
Just a thought. Ditto I support whatever you do.
He is 4 hours away...
hugs
Hops
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I JUST LOVE THIS BOARD. THat is my first thought.
Still sitting on the letter
Lighter, Penny, Hops,
I am obsessing and I know it.......... hate it, giving away my power.
Ok been thinking and would value your comments on this.
Part of the reason for sending it is the "wife"......... I know he told her he left me and I want to put her straight....... why, well if I ever run into her I want her to know this truth. And what difference will that make......... Well, it makes me feel like I have the upper hand, arrogance methinks!!!!
I want her to know that he is not being truthful with her and lying to her because I know he has not told her about the contact he has tried to make with me.
Why, because it makes me feel good that she knows what a POS she is living with again and I am free of him. It is really big for me that she knows he did not dump me. It makes me feel good about the fact that I had value on myself and got rid of him. Why do I need this validation...... maybe because I cannot give it to myself enough. Something also about revenge, she treated me very badly any time she called to the house to see her D which was rarely. It is all a bit twisted and confused on my part.
I do think there is something here about the shadow Hops.
I have always behaved with a level of dignity, which is what he expects of me and somehow the letter seems like blowing his predictions of me out of the water. He sees me like a pussycat who would not upset anyone and to be honest I would have no problem setting the cat amongst the pidgeons. I think there is big acting from my shadow here. Maybe there is something also about me moving out of the place of putting up with his abuse. A bit like "so you think you know me" I dunno feels a bit like standing up to the bully as well as the rest of my shadow motivations......... so unclear. Still not doing anything though.
axa
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Axa,
Well I don't know but in all honesty I would probably be thinking the same as you. No contact is good I really do believe but I myself might want to send the letter too.
I don't get the feeling you are trying to punish him or her. I get the feeling that you want to expose the Fraud he really is. No more secerets, no more hidden agender, No more being passive. You mean what you say and you say what you mean. He has crossed another boundry and you are acting on the consequences.
The letter might not be a bad idea for future references if he continues to try to see you, come there. The letter can be a stay away notice. This time a curtesory next time a legal document. If it goes that far and he continues you will enforce to the extent of the Law to Keep him away. This way you will have your letter (copy) that you told him to stay away. It was put in writing so there is nothing that he did not understand or know if you have to really take it all the way to legal ways to stop him.
and you get to do a Zingo to his ego too!!
Love
Deb
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Hi axa,
You might consider, if you don't mind the expense, having a lawyer, or solicitor as the case may be, write the both of them a letter.
It rachets up the seriousness of it for both of them and gives you a middle path of not contacting him directly but not letting his provocaations stand unanswered.
God knows I'm not for giving lawyers any more money but sometimes they do serve a purpose.
mud
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Well, I'm thinking that writing the letter will not guarantee any of the outcomes you hope for. They are reasonable outcomes.... but you're not dealing with reasonable people.
Mud's idea of getting an attorney involved--now that seems like a way to gain the upper hand. And get your truth out there. And maybe keep him away for real afterwards. (They might refuse the attorney's letter too if they have had trouble of that nature before. But, still, that seems better to me than going it alone.) The attorney would be your witness. The wife might not be the kind of witness you hope for if it's just you and her and a private letter.
Letters don't seem to me to have the kind of power we wish they would have. There is power in writing them and sending them. But the person who receives it can ignore it. People pay more attention in face to face encounters or telephone calls than to letters. That's how I've experienced letter-writing (even though I'm a big fan of them--I love to write and love to receive letters, but other people are not necessarily the same.)
Glad to have you reasoning it out here. This is helpful to me as well. Good food for thought.
Pennyplant
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Awww Axa. I've been thinking about whats important TO ME lately.
Do I want to be vindicated and have EVERYONE know what lies N has been telling about me, him, us?
BIG yup yup yup.
Will I attempt to explain this to his family, friends, our children at some point?
Heck, I surely don't know.
I will say this, I play the conversations in my head, I think about what I'd write, and it's not pretty. I don't like how I look and I sure don't want to keep dwelling on bad stuff that keeps me down in the mud with my piggy N.
His family is piggy too. They won't believe the truth no matter how well I write it. Why should I waste my time on it when they won't admit to believing it, even if they do?
It's not a win win situation. It's not a win lose situation. It's a lose lose situation and my priority is protecting my children.
IF I decide that I can gain something FOR MY CHILDREN'S SAKE, I'll attempt this, on some level. Other than that, I'm hoping I can move through this desire for justice and truth, lol. It surely does suck to have to turn my back on all that unfariness and just let it rot. But that's the best way to get past it, methinks.
By NOT engaging in the craziness any more.
I want that for you too.
<whispering>
Back away from the pen........
and burn the letter in an impomptu ritual complete with madrigal dancing annnnnnnnd
perhaps some naked chanting.
Stop think'n about the N and his squeeze.
Get happy, and busy....
that's the very nicest revenge!
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Lighter,
I sure appreciate your wisdom. Your kids are so lucky to have you in their corner.
(The naked madrigal singing is a little weird, but hey...could be fun! 8) )
CB
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Lighters advice is good for FOO,too. Thank you so much Love Ami
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(((((((((((((((((((((((Axa))))))))))))))))))))
Just a hug and no advice... I am far from an expert here... and so many have given you great counsel...
You have come so far.
Love, Beth
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Naked madrigal dancing..........new one on me!!!! I am very fond of madrigals but the jiggly bits would not look too dignfied. Makes me smile at the thought of it though.
Great advice everyone........ I have the letter written, in an envelope but feel no need to send it. I just want the stupid creep out of my life and maybe, fingers and everything else crossed, he might stay away now. I am full of gratitude that I am not dealing with him on a daily basis and that is where my focus is now.
I have been reading Stalking the Soul and it just hits home with me all the time. I know he has not changed and will not and if it is revenge I want I guess letting the two of them dance their twisted dance is the best I can do. I actually feel sorry for his xwife when I read the book as I know she is now hoovering on the pedestal and will get the hatred in the near future. I just want my life and to hell with them.
Ok I am predictable and do not muddy the waters for him but I am doing ok and that is all that matters to me right now.......... great to vent and get all the anger out here.
Much appreciated.
axa
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Oooh lovely, A.
If there's to be a ritual envelope-burning, can I come?
Nekkid?
Don't do madrigals but I got the macarena down.
Hops
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Lighter,
I sure appreciate your wisdom. Your kids are so lucky to have you in their corner.
(The naked madrigal singing is a little weird, but hey...could be fun! 8) )
CB
The naked madrigal dancing, and chanting is, optional, lol; )
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Oooh lovely, A.
If there's to be a ritual envelope-burning, can I come?
Nekkid?
Don't do madrigals but I got the macarena down.
Hops
::Wiping coffee off keyboard and face:: You should warn a girl before using "Nekkid" and "Macarena" in a sentence, lol.
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Axa:
There isn't any bouncing involved in my madrigal dancing and everything looks good in candle and/or moonlight anyways.
(It's a slow twirley thing and it's perfectly fine if you choose to keep a bit of clothing on.)
Choose music Celtic, smile and dance!
I feel so much better when I dance.
I know I'm winning bc I'm HAPPY!
The important this is to feel you've really left your N and that situation behind.
Personally, I think everyone should experience a traditional burning of the envelope ritua,l at least once: )
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How about doing Riverdance, plenty of bashing of noisy shoes on the stage. Everyone from voiceless standing in a straight line, those of us with big saggy girls bits might risk a black eye or two....... what an image.
Axa
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ohhh, the best medicine...
Hops
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Naked Riverdancing.
Ouch.
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Oh man! I'll never get to blacken my eyes unless I go buy some then I'll probably break my nose and explode them.
Or I could stand with the guys and dance!
Deb
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Oh man! I'll never get to blacken my eyes unless I go buy some then I'll probably break my nose and explode them.
Or I could stand with the guys and dance!
Deb
Ummmm.....
you could run a dump truck over today's implants and they won't break, lol.
I'd be more concerned over the poor skin responsible for holding the things up and in place, than a black eye.
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Geez, I think I'm going to have nightmares after reading this last page. :( :?
mud
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Geez, I think I'm going to have nightmares after reading this last page. :( :?
mud
Oh great.
Now I'm picturing Mud riverdancing naked: /
Ouch.
Again.
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(Don't worry about Mud, he grows figs.)
Remember, we're doomed if we scare away our Resident Representative of Positive Masculinity!
Hops
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(Don't worry about Mud, he grows figs.)
Remember, we're doomed if we scare away our Resident Representative of Positive Masculinity!
Hops
I know it'll take more than nekkid dancin talk......
to scare Mud.
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I just love this talk of madrigals and riverdancing. whooopeee.
I had built a bed and breakfast dream house and I called it THe Madrigal. I love that word and what it invokes. Big velvet doublets and swirly long skirts and lutes playing under trees and Mrs Madrigal from Tales of the City.
This guy, this dork that has made dear Axa unhappy is so not worth a momentary wrinkle on her precious brow. Fill your life with light and creativiy and laughing and naked dancing. You are not a puppet for him anymore. Sounds like HE JUST HAD TO pull your strings one more time.
Lots of love,
Sea storm