Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: NewMe on June 13, 2007, 08:24:27 AM
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Dear Friends,
My husband and children and I are in the process of moving far, far away from my Nmom and enabler Dad. We've gone NC, but unfortunately we currently live in the same small town, so we're almost sneaking around to go to restaurants and shops, to avoid my parents.
I found out something bizarre yesterday, and I'm struggling to understand it.
My Nmom has always wanted a black Hummer H2, a vehicle that I would never want or be able to afford. So, since we went NC several months ago, she has convinced herself that my husband and I have bought one, just to spite her. I find this stuff out from my brother, who is still in contact with my parents. But that's not the bizarre part . . . my brother called me yesterday, very concerned, and said that my Dad, a formerly intelligent and college-educated man, an architect, has now also become convinced that we have this Hummer.
So my brother told Dad . . . "I just went over to their house last week, Dad. They don't have a Hummer."
My Dad insisted, "Yes they do. We were next to them in traffic the other day, and they were in a big black Hummer, and they waved at us."
My brother: "Dad, there is no Hummer."
Dad : "Yes, they have one."
This is worrying me to death because it seems like my Dad has lost all touch with reality. It's like, if Mom told him the sky was green, he would look at the blue sky and all he would see was green. And while he's always been an enabler, and never stood up for me or my brother, at least he was a reasonable and gentle presence in our household.
Has my Mom truly driven him crazy? And if something happened to her and she was gone, would he ever go back to normal?
I would so appreciate your thoughts. I feel like my Dad is dead.
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One thing I have to say. NewMe, you mentioned that you have gone NC with the dysfunctional "parents."
NC means just THAT...NC...not through your brother, not through a friend, NOBODY, NO CONTACT, no knowledge of their whereabouts, etc. You are merely torturing yourself, finding out what is going on with them.
This is only my opinion. You can't say NC if you are still seeking out info regarding them. It is just a subtle way to keep at least one "string" on them.
The dysfunctional people in my life went NC with me...that means I know NOTHING that is going on with them, period!
~Laura
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Dear Laura,
You're absolutely right. I hadn't thought about that before. I've stopped communicating directly with my parents, all my relatives on that side of the family (except my brother) and all mutual friends . . . but my brother is the last, and strongest link. I love him and don't want to lose him.
I'm not sure what to do about this, other than try to stop talking with my brother about them and keep the conversation going in other areas. It's so hard, though, because he works for them at their bed-and-breakfast. It's so sad . . . he's in his 30s, and he has never been able to have a long-lasting relationship with a woman because he lets my mother interfere, control and dictate. And I've told him he needs to get away from them, but he's allowed himself to be put in a situation in which he has no other job experience, no money, no girlfriend, no kind of emotional support system other than me. And it's all I can do just to help myself right now.
He thinks he's going to inherit their money when they die, especially now that I'm out of the picture, and then he'll have the life he really wants. I don't need to tell you all that could go wrong with that scenario. He's going to spend his life all tangled up with my parents.
Anyway, thanks for making me aware . . . it's not really NC until I stop listening, even third-hand, to what's going on with them.
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Hi NewMe
I'm sorry for what you are going through... and I wish I could make it better, but I can't. What I can do is tell you what I see, and encourage you to come back to this information later on if it's too much to take in now. I promise that understanding helps...
The bad news is, your dad is committing a form of psychological suicide. What he's done is picked sides, and it's not your side he's picked. What he's gotten himself into is something that used to be called 'folie à deux'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_à_deux
http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/cache/1033502722.htm
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3352.htm
This is, I think, an extreme form of codependency. It comes from denial, sometimes from mental and emotional laziness, and always involves a fear of confronting the sick partner. Basically your dad has decided that he'd rather be nuts with your mother than sane without her because the price of being sane is higher than he wants to pay.
The good news, if you can call it that, is that this is to some extent both a compulsion and a choice. He probably is very dependent on your mother, if she dominates the relationship. He may very well recover from this if they were to be separated for any reason.
Thing is, they're not likely to be separated for any reason, and he's clearly made his choice.
Now - there is a lot of valuable free information in this situation, which will help a lot later on if you don't feel ready to take it in just yet.
First: your mother is slandering you out of malice. Look at the form this slander has taken... accusing you of getting something she wants. Wow, what a giveaway this is to anyone with their brain booted up! You have a perfect right to buy a Hummer, black or green or pink, if you want one. Leaving aside the ecological arguments ;-), the only kind of person who regards someone else's purchase of a vehicle as some kind of crime or personal affront is a very sick, very boundaryless, very envious person.
Second: sorry to say this, but prepare yourself to discover, eventually, that she has been slandering you out of malice for a long, long time. About weird stuff, little things, whatever. This sort of thing doesn't usually spring up full blown out of nowhere.
Third: again, sorry to say this. Prepare yourself to discover many more instances of your father being enabling and exhibiting mental laziness or emotional cowardice or whatever term for it fits your perspective best, i.e. refusing to see, deal with, believe, admit, confront what is going on with her, and refusing to support, hear, validate, understand, empathize with anyone that she is injuring.
Fourth: You are lucky. Not because they're doing this stuff but because you have at least some family members - your brother, which is amazing, someone in your FOO, a first degree relative! - who aren't buying into the nuttiness and are unafraid to stand up and announce what the reality is. This is very very rare. Usually a family bully manages to enlist the entire family in the mistreatment of their chosen scapegoat.
These are strong and direct words that I have used, and I'm sorry if they're too strong and direct for where you are now. I hope they're not, I hope this degree of directness is what you are looking for and what you can use at this moment.
Edit in: ahh. I didn't see Laura's post or your reply while I was writing. I'm sorry about your brother... this too is unfortunately not uncommon, that someone chooses to stay with an abuser because they expect to derive some sort of ultimate benefit from it.
It can be terribly sad, for instance when a battered woman has been so isolated from family and cut off from any source of income by the abuser that she literally feels she has no other option but to stay and be abused. [There is a sadness that goes down through generations in this case, because all too often this woman has children, and the children come to believe that she chose the abuser over them. Sometimes this is true. Sometimes, it's really the only option she thought she had - and then she loses, loses, loses. Marries an abuser, stays with him, loses. Has children, fails to protect them, loses... ]
It can be utterly infuriating, for instance when someone decides to side with a jerky abusive relative because they 'get something' out of it. They stand to inherit when the jerk passes away. Or an abused spouse stays with the abuser even though it is causing her children psychological harm, because he makes a lot of money and she likes nice things, or the make-up sex is good, or there's some other 'perk' that means more to her than her children's futures and psychological wellbeing.
And because it's a continuum, there are all kinds of shadings and situations in between the extremes of trapped helplessness and calculated self- and other-betrayal.
Your brother's situation is somewhere in between... and very very sad... he does see reality for now, but you should know that this may change. He will be forced, one way or another, to choose sides by your mother, and unfortunately it doesn't sound as though he's going to make a stand for sanity when that day comes...
But be glad that he sees reality now. That is comforting, at any rate.
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ah but Stormy, didn't New just tell us that her brother IS buying into this whole dysfunctional situation, being that he works for these people?
New, I understand that it has to be ultra hard not to talk to brother about what's goin on. I'm just suggesting that you come to a place where you can say "there they go again, what else is new" but stay SEPARATE from the situation emotionally. This is where a counselor and some good books come in handy.
The Language of Letting Go is a good one
Unfinished Business is also.
Please, do yourself a favor, claim your identity and let the N's "bury their own dead"
~Laura
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Laura, you work with your husband.
See my point?
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New,
I'm really sorry for what you're going through. I'm going through something similar, trying to move away from my nmom so that I can have some peace. It's very, very hard, and I understand.
I feel very sorry for your brother. He seems to be in a similar position as me. I'm currently living with my nmom, but that is going to change shortly.
You can't worry about what the nmom is saying about you. It's counterproductive. She will say things no matter what you do. All you can do is concentrate on what is best for you and your family, and if that means NC, then that's what you must do. Go NC and do not worry or discuss what your nmom is saying or doing.
I do feel sorry for your dad though. I'm sure that is a sort of coping mechanism. My parents will never leave each other. It's a sad truth I had to accept, even though I don't think they really love each other. I'm not sure my nmom can truly love. Her love comes with a price tag.
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Dear New,
My father is almost identical to yours. He was a very successful businessman. He was a very decent and compassionate person. Now, he is like an zombie who got his insides sucked out and is now a clone of the "master"- my N mother.
I am NC ,now. However, in the last phone conversation that I had with him, he "told" me,in so many words, ,that he would never tell the truth, ever.I could hear 'evil" in his voice. His voice had that quality that "monsters" have in horror movies. You know when the killer is going to get someone,his voice has an eerie quality. Well. his voice was like that.
They are co-conspirators. This is really hard to see. I always saw him as the good one. He has gotten much worse over the years.I wish I understood more, how he got like this. Was he really sick himself or did he just make a decision to "not fight" and then just went down in to sickness with her.
One thing is for sure. he is the 'head cheerleader" on her team.He will distort any behavior that she has and turn it in to "she is the smartest woman in the world."
It is soooooo pitiful Love Ami
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Hey New,
I'm very sorry to hear about your worries for your Dad. How old is your Dad? Do you think there could be something medical going on with him?
My Dad insisted, "Yes they do. We were next to them in traffic the other day, and they were in a big black Hummer, and they waved at us."
You seem to know the deal and how your mom operates but you said this was bizarre. You talk to your brother still maybe you can run this by him that dad should maybe have a checkup. Rule out something medical going on.
Love
Deb
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Dear Stormy,
I read your post to my husband over breakfast, and we both want you to know how much your reply helped us . . . it makes perfect sense . . . it absolutely rings of truth. My Dad has poor communication skills because of a stroke he had many years ago. He can talk very coherently, but he needs time to think, and he needs someone to listen, and my Mom just overwhelms him with her verbal explosions. So he has let her become the "front man" for their marriage, and he is dependent on her. Also, they are in a very isolated world . . . their bed and breakfast, with four or five employees, is like their own little kingdom, and everyone who works for them has been chosen because they all bow and scrape and tell Mom what she wants to hear.
I have finally begun to realize that Dad has made his choice, and nothing I say or do will deter him, and he and I have to live our own lives. But it's hard to let go of that illusion, of the father who is supposed to be strong and protective and wise.
I REALLY appreciate your strong and direct answers. After what I've been through, I am truly hungry for honesty. Part of this whole process has been re-evaluating my entire life and finally being able to put things in a proper context. If I were a cartoon character, I would have light bulbs going off over my head every five minutes!
I think you are right about my brother, and I will try to help him with the truth as I see it, but I will also be prepared for whatever choices he decides to make in the future. I feel such compassion and sorrow for him, because he is obviously blind to many facets of his situation . . . he thinks just because he dares to "talk back" to my mother and sneak around and lie to her, that this means he is not being controlled by her. Even though she pays his salary! And of course she makes huge promises to him about how she's going to reward him someday . . . but he has seen for himself in the past that she breaks almost every promise she makes. He thinks, however, that since he's the only child left, so to speak, that he'll be compensated for staying with her.
Thank you for the comfort, and the insight
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Dear Laura
I will get these books from Amazon. Thank you!!!
<<The Language of Letting Go is a good one
Unfinished Business is also.
Please, do yourself a favor, claim your identity and let the N's "bury their own dead">>
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Dear Tayana,
Thank you, and I have such sympathy for what you're dealing with . . . but I am so happy that, unlike my brother, you are making plans to free yourself!!!
I know what you mean about love with a price tag. I think it's not really love if it's conditional. But I have found other people in my life, mainly my husband and friends, who have given me all the affection and reassurance and support I never had as a child. Thank God for all the good people in the world.
<<I'm really sorry for what you're going through. I'm going through something similar, trying to move away from my nmom so that I can have some peace. It's very, very hard, and I understand.
I feel very sorry for your brother. He seems to be in a similar position as me. I'm currently living with my nmom, but that is going to change shortly.
You can't worry about what the nmom is saying about you. It's counterproductive. She will say things no matter what you do. All you can do is concentrate on what is best for you and your family, and if that means NC, then that's what you must do. Go NC and do not worry or discuss what your nmom is saying or doing.
I do feel sorry for your dad though. I'm sure that is a sort of coping mechanism. My parents will never leave each other. It's a sad truth I had to accept, even though I don't think they really love each other. I'm not sure my nmom can truly love. Her love comes with a price tag.
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Dear Ami,
We could be talking about the same parents--the dynamics are identical. My Dad has become a clone too! I don't know if he can ever fully come back from the dark place he is going.
Dear Deb,
<<You seem to know the deal and how your mom operates but you said this was bizarre. You talk to your brother still maybe you can run this by him that dad should maybe have a checkup. Rule out something medical going on. >>
That is excellent advice--thank you!--but Dad has regular check-ups because of a stroke he had many years ago. So I think something medical IS going on, in the sense that his poor communication skills have helped to form this prison around him. Although . . . just from his personality, I'm afraid he probably would have ended up this way even without the stroke :(
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Hey, Storm...
i don't really work with my husband anymore. We own a concessions trailer and he is the one who will be working in it. I will have another job, totally separate from him. I quit two weeks ago, working for him. I like being independent of him and his N family as well.
~Laura
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Third: again, sorry to say this. Prepare yourself to discover many more instances of your father being enabling and exhibiting mental laziness or emotional cowardice or whatever term for it fits your perspective best, i.e. refusing to see, deal with, believe, admit, confront what is going on with her, and refusing to support, hear, validate, understand, empathize with anyone that she is injuring.
I picked out this quite, new, although I am beginning to fear that all of Storm's points may apply to my family too. It is very scary to not know the truth about your family. I have no idea what my dad thinks and I cannot figure it out. I can't figure out why he lets her get away with so much shit. Once in a while, if there is something important to him (like seeing my kids) he will put his foot down. Or if she is being massively evil he can step in sometimes. But I can't imagine how anyone would put up with her. I think it's a trade-off. He buys her stuff and puts up with her nastiness (and even takes part in a lot of it) and then he can drink and do his hobbies. I just don't know and sometimes I get sick of trying to figure it out. Wow, does your family sound really delusional. I think mine is getting there and also that I don't realize yet the extent of it.
We're here to listen, and, unfortunately, no one will be too surprised by anything you post here.
(((((((((((((((((((New)))))))))))))))))))
Can I have a ride in the Hummer? LOL
Love, Beth
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((((((((((NewMe & husband)))))))))) -- glad I could help. Very glad... and even more glad that the directness wasn't off-putting. Hang in there. It sounds like a cliche, but the fact that you and your husband have one another is a big, big plus. Dealing with this stuff completely alone is incredibly hard.
Laura, congratulations! That's terrific! :-) You're heading for freedom [emotionally and in whatever other way God will open to you] at jet speed.... :cool: :cool: :cool:
((((((((((Beth))))))))))
unfortunately, no one will be too surprised by anything you post here.
So true, sadly so very very true.
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apologies for disrupting thread - totally unrelated comment to tayana:
noticed this in your sig line:
http://tayana.blogspot.com
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
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<<Can I have a ride in the Hummer? LOL
Love, Beth>>
LOL!!!!!
Yes, Yes . . . anytime. And since Stormy said I could have any color I wanted, I vote for hot pink.
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apologies for disrupting thread - totally unrelated comment to tayana:
noticed this in your sig line:
http://tayana.blogspot.com
Thanks Storm.
I know what you mean about love with a price tag. I think it's not really love if it's conditional. But I have found other people in my life, mainly my husband and friends, who have given me all the affection and reassurance and support I never had as a child. Thank God for all the good people in the world.
I don't think love is supposed to be conditional. When you love someone, you love them in spite of their inadequacies, and even when they make mistakes. I know this, but I still have a hard time believing it.
One of the telling things about my mother's love having a price tag . . . . she never hugs me. She never says she loves me. The only things she really does for me are watch my son, and on occasion she will buy me something, usually something I don't want or like. And if I don't like it then she's offended. She will do fake nice things, especially for my brother, and then complain about doing them when he leaves.
Hang in there, New. (((((Hugs))))
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Hugs to you too Tayana!!!!
And I HAVE to tell you how similar my mother is . . . she gives me absolute junk presents, stuff she doesn't want, and I'm supposed to be thrilled by this stuff, and it completely offends her if I don't want to put it up on the wall or display it in the house or wear it.
My mother has also watched my son and daughter on occasion, but that tapered off a lot in the past few years because she started using it as control. For example, if my husband and I tried to go out to a movie, my Dad would call halfway through and tell us to come back right away, because Mom was already tired of looking after the kids. And you can only take my word for it, but they are incredibly sweet and obedient children.
And you won't believe this: my Nmom actually told me once when she offered to babysit the kids that she was only babysitting so I could get some work done or clean up my house, but she did not want me to have sex with my husband. She was actually trying to control my sex life!
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New,
My mom has used my child as a form of control. He's a very sweet, loving child. I used to think I didn't like children, but I think that's my nmom's projection on me. I do like kids. The other day I was reading about adopting older children, and I was thinking, if I ever meet someone, I think I'd like to do that. It was almost as bizarre as the thought a few days later, I wouldn't mind having another child someday. My mom just makes me feel awful whenever I want to do things for myself. Everytime I've left my son with her to go shopping or do something on my own, she would tell me how awful he was or how tired she was and how he just kept bugging her. I just stopped doing anything for myself.
And you won't believe this: my Nmom actually told me once when she offered to babysit the kids that she was only babysitting so I could get some work done or clean up my house, but she did not want me to have sex with my husband. She was actually trying to control my sex life!
I can believe it, New! My mom would do the same thing. She tells me horror stories about sex. Off the wall stories that you wouldn't believe. She's nasty about it too.