Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: WRITE on June 14, 2007, 05:33:10 PM
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I was reading about this earlier and here are my 10 non-negotiable things I would look for in a potential partner:
1. attractive/attracted
2. manages their life
3. spiritually in balance
4. lives a healthy lifestyle
5. is happy
6. we have significant interests in common: music, writing, nature especially
7. compassionate/ kind / non-abusive
8. likes children & pets & family life
9. shares my values: eg. faithfulness, monogamy, interfaith, feminism, love of G_d, social responsibility, commited to personal growth
10. good sense of humour, good-humoured!
I just shot these off without thinking at all, a year ago when we did this I wasn't nearly so sure; at this rate I'll be ready for a relationship by...oh, 2010 :D
What do other people think?
Would your list differ significantly from mine?
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well I was hoping someone would comment on this, does this mean I am doing good or just so deluded these days it's not worth even trying to advise me? :D
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write,
I actually replied once on this, but something happened to it and it flew out into cyberspace, never to be seen again!
Sorry!
I think it's an awesome list. What stands out greatly to me is the "manages their life". Wow. Yes. Self-disicipline, or self-motivation would be very important to me.
Also, "is happy". Oh my goodness, how life would be so much more pleasant to be with someone who is happy. Just that one simple thing. Would mean so much to me.
I don't really think about a list anymore, as I am back in a relationship with my former NH. And I have given up on the happiness trait. It ain't gonna happen. But if I were looking, that would be #1!
Then it would be kindness. When a person has a choice to respond kindly or sarcastically or any other way, how do they respond? I want the kind person. The thoughtful, empathetic one.
And then future planning would be important. Spontaneity is great, but then what about a month from now, can they pay the bills?
I think a thirst for learning is great, too, I'm a HUGE reader.
Good luck to you in your quest!!
Dandylife
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Write,
Actually, I read your list and sat and thought about it for a bit. I tried to imagine ever being to a place where I could make a list like this. With a whole lot of work, I thought real hard and...couldnt imagine it. I just cannot imagine wanting to give my self wholeheartedly to another man. And yet, I would never consider doing it half-heartedly.
I was sorry that I seem to be so jaded. I didnt want to rain on your parade. I'm glad you have gotten to the point that you are so optimistic. I will watch you as you make forays into this new area, and cheer you on.
Love
CB
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http://www.selfcounseling.com/help/personalsuccess/personalvalues.html (http://www.selfcounseling.com/help/personalsuccess/personalvalues.html)
is a checklist for Personal Values.
Hi
I am trying to put together beliefs, values, maybe thoughts on my attitude for my next therapy session.
I thought I would put that Link here, instead of my thread. More people might seee it.
xx
Izzy
P.S. Not looking for a man. ;0)
visit my thread on New Approach and see if you can be of help.??? Thanks.
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To get moving towards Living Your Values Centred Life today, and;
· Reduce your stress levels
· Develop a reputation as someone who has high integrity
· Decision making is simple
· Increase your sense of personal identity
· Increase your assertiveness
· Discover what you really want from key relationships
· Increase your self awareness and
· Say good bye to the people and situations who do not honour you and your values....
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I am back in a relationship with my former NH. And I have given up on the happiness trait. It ain't gonna happen. But if I were looking, that would be #1!
oh dandylife I am so sorry.
I felt so sad reading that, I don't think I have read all your story or why you are back with him?
One of my friends recently went back to her N marriage and all i can say, it ws like a spark of vitality left her voice; I wanted so much to encourage her but I also knew- she has to do what is right for her in her own time. look how long I stayed....
That's my only regret though- staying so long. And what made me file my divorce; I can't wait any more.
I think that you would have to use your intuition, as your first line of defense. With a list of traits a person could get in trouble because they could be so centered on the list that they might miss what their gut is telling them,.
I think I don't listen to my head as much as I would like once my emotions are engaged.
Or take enough time before getting involved.
That said I am this time, the new man I like every time I am unsure I back off a little.
Before I would have felt insecure and wanted to push forward to secure things....now I know that is the way to secure a dodgy relationship!
And actually- i aren't even sure what our relationship will be long-term entirely, nor do I mind so long as it's a happy wholesome one.
I just cannot imagine wanting to give my self wholeheartedly to another man. And yet, I would never consider doing it half-heartedly.
That sounds wonderful CB- you're not ready but not ready to compromise either!
This is the first man I have met who I have felt deep down was marriage-and-kids-potential but also he is in therapy for some issues which affected his first marriage, like competetiveness, and I am still not 100 % recovered from trauma. In fact as things improve my trauma hgas gotten a bit worse, I think i am actually able to experience it now more, and some of the denial is gone.
SO space is really important for both of us, and also if the relationship will thrive.
I really like him, and he really likes me.
You know that poem by Yeats, that line 'one man loved the pilgrim soul in you'?
That's how he makes me feel, he makes me smile. I sang well for something a few weeks ago and he had us do it all again, his face was a picture of delight.
It's like we are moving closer together in values too, as though things come up which need addressing and we go away and work them out.
Whatever happens i'll always love and appreciate him for being the first person I have trusted like this in a long long time, to show myself to and not be afraid.
One day we argued on the telephone, I was so happy afterwards, I could argue with him and knew he wouldn't hit me or hurt me or get back with revenge. It felt so healthy to be able to be annoyed in a normal way and express myself, and him the same, without diminuishing either of us.
Ami, my gut instinct is this man is for me; but I also want some other things to be okay, most of all that we are both feeling the same.
I married ex knowing he was difficult, knowing we had many many problems, remarried him knowing he was abusive....
G_d knows what my overall rationale was but it wasn't self-care or happiness.
Hopefully I can approach new relationships more slowly and thoughtfully.
Of course now i am quite happy on my own, that makes a big difference...
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Write,
Even though I can't imagine trusting enough to do what you are doing, you seem so centered and whole. I know there's more for you to do (and is for all of us), but I have seen so much growth in you since I started here.
Your growth has inspired me and made me grow too. Thank you.
CB
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Write...
I am scared peeless at the idea of you feeling that "this man's for you".
Only because after I left my first marriage I entered a second one that was a horror.
You haven't known this man long, dear heart, and it would be so so so so so so easy to look for what you want to see.
Please, don't "fuse".
xxoo
Hops
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Write,
Like Ami, I am hesitant to comment, but not because I am apprehensive about what I want to say...I just tend to lack TACT at times, and am concerned at this not coming out right...however, that will not stop me from giving it a shot here. I am hoping I do not sound pessimistic or cynical. I just try to speak with honesty and forthrightness, my views on things, based on my own experiences.
Ami,
I'm GLAD you gave your comment. You made an EXTREMELY good point! I currently live with someone who has some wonderful traits and even had more when we first met...it's the subtle things I never noticed!
I did tend to OVERLOOK the part about "this man's father molested both his daughter and step daughter, and has abused my husband and his brothers in the past." I overlooked also, the fact that he was "more than willing to give you references" right up front, telling me "anyone in my town will let you know about my flawless reputation." (smacks self in head soundly)
I overlooked the fact that he resented my daughter and took his frustration out on her in the form of abuse (BEFORE I MARRIED HIM)
I overlooked the fact that he would refuse to eat anything that was fancy, spiced, nice, formal and INSIST that he always eat "what mom always made me"
I overlooked the fact that he LIVED FOR WORK! (workaholic, even at the expense of family)
ALL BECAUSE HE SEEMED TO FIT THE WONDERFUL LIST I HAD MADE UP:
I wanted a man who was RESPONSIBLE, FELL IN LOVE WITH MY DAUGHTER BEFORE HE FELL IN LOVE WITH ME (oh yes, till she interfered with something he was doing)
One who treated his mother well, cause after all, if he did, he'd treat me well too, right? (when it came down to it, his mom always came BEFORE ME in our marriage...or else his SISTER did)...now for your list:
1. attractive/attracted
>>>my opinion here...NOT a good first trait at all. The ones who are ultra attractive tend to KNOW it, FLAUNT it and USE it. A little bit good-lookin doesn't hurt though. You don't want to marry Atilla the Hun or Big Foot either.
2. manages their life
>>>This seems reasonable. Just be careful that he doesn't manage HIS life, but trying to control YOURS.
3. spiritually in balance
>>>THIS SHOULD BE FIRST! My opinion
4. lives a healthy lifestyle
>>>This is a very good one, until he imposes it on you, insisting that you look a certain way or weigh a certain weight or eat only certain foods. (be lookin for that)
5. is happy
>>>As long as it's not at YOUR expense
6. we have significant interests in common: music, writing, nature especially
>>>Awesome!
7. compassionate/ kind / non-abusive
>>>Excellent to look for
8. likes children & pets & family life
>>>YES
9. shares my values: eg. faithfulness, monogamy, interfaith, feminism, love of G_d, social responsibility, commited to personal growth
>>>That sounds dreamy! very good ones!
10. good sense of humour, good-humoured!
>>>As long as you are not the brunt of cruel jokes, I say YES, go for this one!
I pray for you that BEST that God can give :)
~Laura
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I can't imagine trusting enough to do what you are doing
well I'm not really doing anything CB, except gettign to know someone a little, letting someone in in a way I haven't been able to before!
it would be so so so so so so easy to look for what you want to see.
Please, don't "fuse".
the interesting thing is since all this therapy etc I can't seem to do anything that doesn't 'feel' right- I get aches and pains and all kinds of warning symptoms as soon as I get out of balance....
I'm not going to hide all my life Hops because I was hurt and abused, I could never have foreseen what would happen with my ex whatever I had done, also- I survived as did you.
If I make another screw-up I'll have to start over yet again I guess... :oops:
I really want to move on and enjoy just being again, beyond the 'precautions' I am taking I don't see what more I can do.
Thanks for worrying about me but I'll be fine.
attractive/attracted
>>>my opinion here...NOT a good first trait at all. The ones who are ultra attractive tend to KNOW it, FLAUNT it and USE it. A little bit good-lookin doesn't hurt though. You don't want to marry Atilla the Hun or Big Foot either.
attractive/attracted to me I mean, I don't think I am attracted to model material or compose it!
One of the worst things about me and ex was on a basic level we just weren't sexually attracted; I overlooked it, told myself I was beign superficial if I paid attention etc.
Now I think- why would I want a marriage without a sexual attraction?
Maybe back then i was afraid of sex, who knows, but now I want to feel sexual feelings for my partner, otherwise I'll have them as just a friend.
I pray for you that BEST that God can give
thanks Laura.
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I was reading about this earlier and here are my 10 non-negotiable things I would look for in a potential partner:
1. attractive/attracted
2. manages their life
3. spiritually in balance
4. lives a healthy lifestyle
5. is happy
6. we have significant interests in common: music, writing, nature especially
7. compassionate/ kind / non-abusive
8. likes children & pets & family life
9. shares my values: eg. faithfulness, monogamy, interfaith, feminism, love of G_d, social responsibility, commited to personal growth
10. good sense of humour, good-humoured!
I just shot these off without thinking at all, a year ago when we did this I wasn't nearly so sure; at this rate I'll be ready for a relationship by...oh, 2010 :D
What do other people think?
Would your list differ significantly from mine?
I think its a very good list WRITE. I'm probably a little more flexible in some areas when it comes down to it though. For example, I would not expect my partner to be `perfect'....like being happy all the time, and having himself `all figured out' . I know how it feels when someone expects that of me as a condition of their love, and it didn't feel very acheivable or very loving.
I think the most important thing to me by far is the loving way with which my partner treats me at all times. The fact that he has a great sense of humour has helped smooth over many potential hardships, but I still love him even when he's feeling down or not particularly humorous. We share a lot in common, but I really enjoy our differences too; they give us something to learn from one another. For example, I really love animals and nature, just like you WRITE. My partner wasn't so much into those things when we met, but I think my enthusiasm has rubbed off on him and he loves nature every bit as much as I do now. Also, I am a very creative person, whereas he is more focused and methodical about things.
His strengths have a way of rubbing off on me, and I am grateful for his positive influence.
I guess what I am trying to say is that `lists' are so helpful for working out our values, but the reality of living with another fallible human being over time often means being flexible too:)
As a final comment, i just wanted to add that I think your `list' reflects your values, and I think they are very beautiful ones. They show that you are a wonderful person and I have no doubt that whoever you man is, or will be, he will be so lucky to have you.
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Mega dittoes to what Bella said, Write:
I think your `list' reflects your values, and I think they are very beautiful ones. They show that you are a wonderful person and I have no doubt that whoever you man is, or will be, he will be so lucky to have you.
Sorry if I overdid the protectiveness, hon, I know that's annoying.
I probably over-identify. I just remember how I felt after exiting my empty marriage...how incredibly eager I was for a new relationship. In my case (probably not true for you) it kept me a little blinkered about pink/red/rosy flags.
But I'm glad you're feeling confident about your hopes for new love. I wish it for you too!
love
Hops
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Well, I think I should get an award for having the worst judgement when it comes to men.
For the first time in my life I am happy and not in a relationship. When I think it might be nice to be with someone the memories of X flood back and I think oh boy am I glad to be single. I have my N antennae up and whizzing. In the unlikely event of me meeting someone I would take it sooooooooo slowly, my experience is the real person emerges after a year or two. Don;t know if anyone would wait that long for me to make up my mind but heck I am enjoying myself in the meantime.
axa
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Hi axa
it doesn't even take a year. There can be clues present from the very first date, or even before you have the first date. Keep your eyes open and your heart open too, and keep enjoying yourself!
There's nothing 'mean' about the 'meantime' ;-) ;-) ;-)!
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I have had this thread in the back of my mind for awhile.. I could have left my H for a man who was so much worse of an N. I escaped by a 'thread".When I hear you describe N traits,I realize that this man had so many more "hard core " N traits than my H.
This man would laugh if people got diseases. He would go to the grocery store so he could laugh at the "cripples" riding those motorized carts.He once told me that he could kill a man at night and forget about it in the morning.
When I write this, I am appalled at myself for having such a close relationship with him. However, at the time, he made a joke(half joke) about these things.also, I was completely alone in the world and in the process of losing my mind.
My H(if he is an N or not) would never have anyone killed. This man could have had someone killed if he had a reason for it
I am writing this because I am thinking about what let me get in a relationship with him and also my H.
I think that I know the answer. I wanted someone to give me too much. I wanted someone to do for me what I need to do for myself. IOW, I need to define myself, not look to another to define me. I need to value myself,not look to another to decide if I have value and then tell me about it.
I was a "walking hole" of needs looking to find a person to tell me about "who i was". I guess that that is why I got the caliber person that I did. Love Ami
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(((Axa!)))
That was such a joy to read!
I would do the happy dance but I don't know what it looks like and I imagine I'd look very undignified. :lol:
I am really tickled to see you celebrating yourself. I just love it.
love
Hops
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Hi Ami,
I think you're getting clarity at such an amazing speed.
I can't see anything BUT a good future for you.
I know you'll find your way through.
hugs
Hops
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I would not expect my partner to be `perfect'....like being happy all the time, and having himself `all figured out' . I know how it feels when someone expects that of me as a condition of their love, and it didn't feel very acheivable or very loving.
how interesting Bella French that you should write this, because this morning I was thinking I have gained a few pounds, been a bit grouchy and broken a couple of commitments this past two weeks since the stress increased; I have very high standards for myself on these things and suddenly I thought do I apply these standards to others uniformly now? And I think I do a bit, I have that fervent zeal of a new religious convert who still cannot relax and let G_d do it. I am trying too hard I guess.
I need to cut myself and others some slack.
Just because things were horrible at times with ex, I can't control everything and everyone from now on!
Including myself; this perfectionism is creepign back and it's not healthy.
your `list' reflects your values, and I think they are very beautiful ones. They show that you are a wonderful person and I have no doubt that whoever you man is, or will be, he will be so lucky to have you.
that is such a kind thing to say.
And that's the most important thing about a potential partner- their values. They don't have to be perfect, just have good solid kind values to fall back on.
I probably over-identify. I just remember how I felt after exiting my empty marriage...how incredibly eager I was for a new relationship. In my case (probably not true for you) it kept me a little blinkered about pink/red/rosy flags.
maybe a little Hops, I mean I haven't been on a date in almost two years!
I've spent ages getting to know a few men and figuring out how they think and behave and what I like about them etc.
Also I feel very much like in that book you recommended, don't be hung up on the outcome.
I can't get into casual flings because of my bipolar, so I am only really prepared to do friends or a serious love relationship; there's not much in between for me, it's too hard to manage the bipolar triggered by the hormones and emotions....
But it makes me careful more than ever too. Too careful really, I think I may scare away most men! Which isn't a bad thing if all they want is sex: I can't do casual sex, it's not an option with my illness.
Funny how so much of what I live has very conservative values in its best interest, if I'd lived in 1850 maybe I wouldn't have had bipolar? I've always said modern life makes it worse!
I think that the answers will come step by step, as I get whole
I think that's right Ami, it's funny things which I can 'hear' now I just know I blanked out even a couple of years ago.
And this being in balance thing, it's fragile and precarious sometimes, but there's no running around no drinking and no return to ex....something shifts over time as we become stronger and more sure of ourselves again.
Don;t know if anyone would wait that long for me to make up my mind but heck I am enjoying myself in the meantime.
and some won't Axa.
El Crusho as Hops christened him last year did not want to see me as a friend; as soon as I said dating wasn't on the cards he stopped calling.
It has over time faded the attraction and slowly we are becoming just friends and no hurt feelings.
I don't think I told y'all though my best friend here has stopped calling; that was unresolved but again i will wait and it will right itself when he meets someone else. I really don't have feelings for him beyond fondness and friendship so I am not even prepared to explain myself, if he had been honest and asked me out when he developed feelings we would have resolved it without getting attached first.
And that's the other thing important for us nurturing types who have supported difficult people and difficult relationships- other people's feelings are almost never our responsibility!
In some ways I married ex the first time because I didn't want to hurt him having been somewhat conflicted and changeable.
Now I realise the best thing is back off when unsure what to do, but then I was so fixated on resolution....even if it meant unhappiness I'd rather choose it and have done!
It's great being single too though as Axa says, I have never had such peace or freedom before.
I'd really love to know this guy betetr, but he too obviously wants slowness, we have moved together then apart over and over; maybe the timing just isn't right yet, or we're not healed enough or something.
I like that he doesn't push for anything though, he doesn't judge and he has made me feel special and attractive at this transitional time when I'm still more caterpillar than butterfly.
If it's not meant to be it's not meant to be, I won't fight for or push for anything; just stay true to my values and continue to observe and enjoy life.
***
MY shoulder pain is almost gone, I am going to start a diet tomorrow to tackle my feelign of out-of-control, which comes whenever I gain weight.
Ex is still being moddy and difficult some of the time, but more petulant than scary.
I haven't seen much of him and I've reworked my schedule to keep it like that.
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Dear Hops
Thanks for that cyberspace "Atta Boy". I needed it. I have had an almost constant panic attack for 3 days. I did not know what was wrong with me,but I looked up panic attacks amd found my symptom..
I don't know. I have been feeling really.... badly.I feel really dizzy. All of a sudden i just "saw" all the family relationships. I get dizzy every time that I talk to anyone in my family. or even think about any of the relationships.
I see that my H is an N or a good dose of N traits. I see the Golden boy and the "despised" child. i see that my mother threw all the qualities that she hated in herself on me---dependency,fearfulness etc. She would scream at me,""YOUR SO DEPENDENT.'Now, I see that that was her.
I never had a panic attack like this before,but I never saw my whole history is one fell swoop before.
Pray for me ,please, because I just want these stmptoms to go away Love Ami
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Ami,
Try taking a small/med brown paper sack and position it loosely over your mouth and nose, breathe into it until your symptoms ease. Sure-fire cure for hyperventilation, which is the core physical symptom in many panic attacks.
hugs
Hops
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Thanks Hops
I am going to take one with me. Love and a Big Hug Ami
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Dear Ami,
Oh I know that feeling! Hold on sweet one; you will be ok. It is so stressful on our bodies when something scarey in our subconscious mind makes its way into our consciousness. I wish I knew a way to make it easier for you. When i was going through the worst of it, I would get heart palpatations so badly, that I went to the emerceny ward twice. The anxiety made me dizzy and it amost felt as if it were being carried through my blood! I fainted a couple of times too. If you can get to a chemist, I would recommend buying some Vitamin B tablets and take 2 of them in the mornings. They seem to replenish something in our bodies when the stress gets too much. Vitamin B also seemed to take away most of the symptoms of anxiety adn panic attacks.
HUGS to you AMi!! Please don't be scared; this phase wll pass, I promise you:)
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Hi Write,
Re: Your list:
1. attractive/attracted
2. manages their life
3. spiritually in balance
4. lives a healthy lifestyle
5. is happy
6. we have significant interests in common: music, writing, nature especially
7. compassionate/ kind / non-abusive
8. likes children & pets & family life
9. shares my values: eg. faithfulness, monogamy, interfaith, feminism, love of G_d, social responsibility, commited to personal growth
10. good sense of humour, good-humoured!
As someone who has been where you are/have been, I would agree with these values/character traits. Because I am a bit older than you, I would probably also add "has a compatible view of the future as we move into the retirement years." That would never have been something I would have considered in my 40's, but as I approach my 60's, my children are (for the most part) out of the home, and I hopefully have many more years to enjoy--I want it to be with someone who sees those later years in the same light as I do. I think it is important that you both have activities that are done apart from one another, but that you have things in common that can still be enjoyed as aging sets in.
Something else I would add to the list from a practical standpoint is a compatible view of money and how it is saved and spent. I went from my first xh who totally controlled all the money, to my second xh who had no control of money and how to spend or save and I had to make sure the bills were paid every month--even when there was barely enough to cover them. Differing views of money can cause so much stress in a relationship no matter how similar your other values are, so if you can talk openly about how you each personally manage finances up front, you can hopefully have a handle on that from the beginning. I guess some of this goes hand in hand with my first point--as there needs to be enough money to support you once you have retired. I know I am dealing with a lot of stress about this right now, so it is coming to the surface more and more for me these days.
The last thing I would add to the list is that your partner has friends that you like and vice versa. Also, that your friends like him and feel he is a good choice for you. You are never going to universally like all the people he hangs out with, but once you are a couple, you want to have other couples to socialize with, and you want it to be a combination of your friends and his. If he doesn't have guy friends, I think that is a huge red flag--or if his friends are all jerks--also a big red flag.
They say it takes as long as 2 years for the initial euphoria of a new relationship to wear off so you can really see the person for who they are. I am happy to say that my b/f and I have crossed that line and I love him more than ever. I would say that he passes the test on all your points. He is a good man, who loves and is loved by his children, is happy with his life and also makes me very happy (and it is important to him that I am happy), who would be there for me at any time that I needed him--emotionally and physically, and we still enjoy sex as much as ever.
I hope that the relationship you are flirting with turns into something wonderful. Good for you to be taking your time and evaluating as you go. If it is not meant to be, it won't be. I'm confident that you are prepared to make that decision now. That you are now able to move away from your ex emotionally as well as physically, is a huge step for you. I am very happy for you.
All the best,
Brigid
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BRIGID YOU ARE MY ROLE MODEL!
I want to grow up to be your half of a happy relationship.
(Next year when I'm 58...) :lol:
Hops
Hi Write,
I've seen a terrific little book called the 100 Questions that's intended to help couples think straight while they're all woozy on love. About a future together. I think I'd read it again before I dated again...have you seen it? Might be helpful to you.
xo
Hops
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Storm,
think you are right there are warning signs from day 1 but I am not so smart at picking them up... only retrospectively. Thought I had it sorted when I met XN but my difficult is knowing when to give up and go......... anyway no fear of meeting someone in the wilderness where I live right now and not too interested in socializing.
Hops,
I'll join you in the happy dance anyday! Feeling good enough and peaceful at the moment.
axa
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my difficult is knowing when to give up and go......... anyway no fear of meeting someone in the wilderness where I live right now
it's funny I felt like that here in TX suburbs, yet I have truly met more men than in any other city. I think somehow the universe draws people in :) at different times of life.
Thanks Hops, I looked it up:
The Hard Questions: 100 Essential Questions to ask before you say 'I do' by Susan Piver.
I just ordered it for 90 cents plus postage!
I'll let you know if it's useful....
a compatible view of money and how it is saved and spent.
interesting you should mention this Brigid, I only thought last night how much of a weapon money is ina marriage. My ex mentioned he is stashign away large sums; after all these years of frittering it away then nagging me then refusing to comply with whatever savings plans we decide....I gave up years ago trying to manage ex on it- he would always pay a bill and always go to work and was well paid so we never got into any problems but it was always totally out of my say-so though I would be blamed as if it were me if ex felt anxious anytime...
I've been really assertive with him about money since we separated, but I also know he isn't reliable, if he changed his mind and stopped paying my alimony or whatever he does- it will probably be something about power. Att the moment he's still feeling guilty about some of the things he has done, but I have seen that switch off before.
I don't count on anything with him, not even his relationship with our son; I've seen him change before, it is literally like a switch off and on.
Part of moving on is finally accepting these things for what they are, making the best of today and not taking it personally when the NPD overrides any positive.
Good for you to be taking your time and evaluating as you go. If it is not meant to be, it won't be.
Thanks Brigid, that's exactly how I feel, if I am too slow forthe guy well he's not the guy for me. Especially me- I will always have to manage my bipolar first and foremost which often means backing off and prioritising calmness and stability!
That you are now able to move away from your ex emotionally as well as physically, is a huge step for you. I am very happy for you.
I was scared for a long time, thinking I had to manage ex to benefit my family; maybe I did. But it's an impossible task too, and self-sacrifice won't make the outcome different...
What is different now is that even though I really want things for me, and I am starting to feel optimistic and confident, I'm not letting itrun away with me.
Taking things slow is hard for impetuous me, but I know if I don't I'll sabotage some of my progress.
We can't rely on others to look after us- it took me years to realise that, and especially that I was looking to people to care for me whose motives were more about abuse and control.
The new man I feel exactly as Brigid says- if it's meant to be then it'll work out; if not, well, it's like with the Wendy Cope poem I'll put below- there'll be another along in a while :)
Bl**dy men are like bl**dy buses
You wait for about a year
And as soon as one approaches your stop
Two or three others appear.
You look at them flashing their indicators,
Offering you a ride.
You're trying to read the destinations,
You haven't much time to decide.
If you make a mistake, there is no turning back.
Jump off, and you'll stand there and gaze
While the cars and the taxis and lorries go by
And the minutes, the hours, the days.
Except I'll be filling the minutes hours and days with interesting stuff and not be too worried!
-
BRIGID YOU ARE MY ROLE MODEL!
Thanks, Hops :D. Very sweet of you to say. Us mid-50+ girls have to stick together. I have the 57th coming in a few weeks, but I don't dread them anymore. Each one is a blessing and I am now proud of my age.
Write,
I was scared for a long time, thinking I had to manage ex to benefit my family; maybe I did. But it's an impossible task too, and self-sacrifice won't make the outcome different...
I totally understand this. My xnh did not give me the option to keep us together for the sake of the family, but I'm sure I would have made that choice if allowed to. No, self-sacrifice will not make the outcome different. It will only delay the inevitable. How my children will deal with the legacy of their father's infidelity, our divorce, etc., is now only their choice to make. I have done all that I could to get them to this point and now their life choices will be their own. So far, they are doing fine.
Taking things slow is hard for impetuous me, but I know if I don't I'll sabotage some of my progress.
I also understand this. I, too, can be impetuous, but I also value security. I have felt very unstable and at loose ends about my future for some time, but have had to learn to live with it and actually embrace it as other aspects of my life are becoming more settled. I have learned that security comes one step at a time. I have rushed to that point in the past, only to realize that I really didn't know the person with whom I was trying to establish the security.
We can't rely on others to look after us- it took me years to realise that, and especially that I was looking to people to care for me whose motives were more about abuse and control.
I really understand this. It was what we were taught in our FOO. I sometimes long for (in the words of Dr. Phil) a "soft place to fall," but know I need to remain vigilant in looking out for my best interests.
I hope it continues to go well for you.
Brigid
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S&S,
I make a list of the bad traits I could live with in a partner,
and another list of the traits I couldnt.
This was actually how I approached the dating process also. I did have absolute traits I wanted in a partner, i.e., a man with children, who had a good relationship with his kids; as I wanted him to understand the role my children played in my life. But it was mostly about what were the deal breakers and what could be compromised upon. The older we are, the more compromises there are to make, IMO.
I think this is why only 50% of baby boomers are currently married. Many who have gone through divorce or the death of a spouse, are unwilling to give up the freedoms that being single allows. I am beginning to understand this, the longer I am single, but I still see remarriage as the option I would choose--if the right person is available.
Brigid
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I read once about making those lists with
MUST HAVE NICE TO HAVE CANNOT HAVE
Then, I think --not sure I'm remembering it right-- even assigning importance to each so they're all numbered.
That way, helps you discover the urgency/priority of each.
Sigghh. I remember one of those cards mouldering in the bottom of my purse while I became enraptured with an N.
Arrgghh,
Hops
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Hops,
There were many things about XN I did not like when I met him at first but thought Oh I am so judgemental, I am not perfect so I will have to put up with some difficult things in a partner......... wish I had held onto my judgement it would have saved me a lot of heartache. I had been in another N relationship a few years previously and thought I could spot one a mile away but I do think that Xn had highly sociopathic tendancies, which he agreed with also. The fact that he seemed so loving to his daughter convinced me that he was not an N. Also, when I think of it all I can do is shake my head, he would always consult with me about what I wanted to do, check if things were ok with me etc............... he really fooled me. Want to say never again but do not trust myself as yet to make that strong statement but working towards it
axa
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S&S
Thats smart I think, Doing something similiar myself. Really acknowledging the "bad" parts and then seeing if they are just lack of awareness or down right bad.. hope it works for us.
axa
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One thing that eased my anguish at one point was reading that even brilliant therapists can be fooled by Ns until they're specially vigiland AND trained to spot it.
I think the danger for me was always in "interpreting" the good or charming or sensitive or considerate behaviors I'd see from a man early in the relationship. I think now I'd like to just see, oh, there is a behavior that is very positive, I am liking that. FULL STOP.
No concluding, assumptions, extrapolating: "Therefore he must be _______ (good quality I insert because I want to find it)." If I hang around him for 2 years and still can't spot it, okay. Then it might be a reasonable risk. But most of the Nmen I was involved with were in a rush, or I was, and there was never any respect on my part (or a shred of it on theirs, bed being the goal) for the absolutely necessity of a slow ambling pace and hugely expansive sense of plenty of time.
I believe that now. If I found a potential companion now or at 77, I will take my ambling time. Only pace that's safe for me.
I can't prevent an N from being a great actor. But I can prevent myself from responding like a fan.
Hops
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Okay, I'll work on my NO list tonight!
Hugs to everyone.
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Think I was always in a rush also, wanted to get into the relationship as if I was not whole without one. I was so desperate to be part of a "happy family" that I ignored so much. One thing I have identified is that I was always more concerned with how they were feeling and their needs rather than my own. Felt to selfish to focus on my own needs. Big lesson here for me.
Oscar winning performances I have been involved in. Once the tears start with the N I melt....... second last time I met XN he brought a toilet paper with him to mop up his tears LOL........ guess beware of men calling toilet rolls could be something I could add to my list.
sick and tired of the creeps..........
axa
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Hey Axa:
Bravo. You've identified something so big:
One thing I have identified is that I was always more concerned with how they were feeling and their needs rather than my own. Felt to selfish to focus on my own needs.
And you are learning how not to be a creep to yourself.
hugs
Hops
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guess beware of men calling toilet rolls could be something I could add to my list.
Definitely, Axa! That was the first thing I put on my list! :D
CB
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(((((S&S))))
Thanks for the kudos, hon.
Very heartening.
hugs
Hops
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I was always in a rush also, wanted to get into the relationship as if I was not whole without one. I was so desperate to be part of a "happy family" that I ignored so much. One thing I have identified is that I was always more concerned with how they were feeling and their needs rather than my own. Felt to selfish to focus on my own needs. Big lesson here for me.
absolutely!
A relationship isn't just something perfect from day one, it's negotiated back and forth and makes or breaks depending how well each person can remain able to give and receive love in the face of the process.
I look back at my two serious relationships and they were just so fraught I buried myself in the other person and forgot about my own growth and development. Then got resentful when not only was I unfulfilled with my personal dreams- they didn't appreciate or respond to me how I anticipated either.
It's really nice now having the confidence to risk showing someone all of me and examine all of them, not trying to reach the goal of a relationship before I've been anywhere near the process of building one!
I've always been happier giving than receiving, leading than following, shouldering tasks which were way beyond me and almost broke me....I don't know when something changed but I feel now more able to be loved, able to listen to others even if they don't express it well, able to let go more and abandon myself to feeling happy and calm.
It's a wonderful feeling, every morning when I wake up I am glad to be alive, and safe, and comfortable. And it gets better, bad days are in context, they don't trigger shame or buried pain, I can ebb and flow with my relationships better and not fall apart if I feel abandonned or rejected.
And the nicest thing is that the people i am meeting now in terms of friendships and love interests are very positive and happy themselves. I guess like attracts like. My uncertainty and insecurity wasn't helping me connect with people who try on the whole to live a good healthy life.
Some of my relationships were even pressuring me to stay where I was and not deal with my problems.
Some of my friendships have ended, they've all changed. We don't just change ourselves but our whole world, maybe that's why we're so resistant to it at first, we sense there will be wider repercussions than weight loss/ therapy/ exercise/ spiritual growth etc.....
***
My NO list:
*carrying personal toilet roll ( thanks Axa! )
*poor personal hygiene/ no pride in appearance
*not good manners
*aggressive or abusive
*substance abuse/ drinker
*doesn't listen- especiall doesn't 'hear'
*closed-minded
*'player'/womaniser
May be a problem list:
*has any ongoing trauma or drama from past life
*religious belief clashes: no fundamentalism!
*cultural differences?
What have I missed??????
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Write,
What a good post. Very uplifting. Sometimes I think I am so damaged from a life of Ns that I will never be in a place of relationship readiness. Also the fact that the wrinkles are creeping up daily does not help!!!
I remember when my daughter was really ill being so stressed, driving from the hospital to my home, an hour away and screaming until my throat hurt. I felt so scared and alone in the world. I remember crying and screaming "all I want is someone to put their hand on my neck and hold the weight of my head" I knew then this was too much for me to expect. Nobody was going to hold me with love and help me carry my burden. I learned not to expect anything, even the smallest thing. I am very suspicious even of the smallest thing and always wonder what the motivation of the other is, my gut always felt they just want something from me and of course my experience confirmed this.
I feel different now. I know I am alone. I know it is a better place than hoping for something which is not available. I do not trust others but I am beginning to trust myself. I have figured out, at last, that I am responsible for my own happiness and when I neglect myself I am saying I am not worth being happy. I do not believe this any longer.
I am glad you are attracting healthy people around you. Someday I hope I have the confidence and trust to put myself out there for some form of relationship. I find I am hyper sensitive and know I am seeing Ns everwhere. But I am ok in many ways better than ever before and that is such a good thing to write.
My list
No toilet rolls
Nobody who tells me they will buy me a car on date 2!!!!
Honest
Grounded
EMPATHIC
Nobody who cannot make eye contact with nobody else except me.
This is too scary. Think my list is going to take some time
Axa
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What have I missed??????
comb-overs
:P
Hops
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I know I am alone. I know it is a better place than hoping for something which is not available. I do not trust others but I am beginning to trust myself.
I was like this for a long time Axa, couldn't let anyone in.
Three years has seen a change though and I think in another three it will be different again.
Someday I hope I have the confidence and trust to put myself out there for some form of relationship.
starting here and with a therapist is good and safe.
I lurked on this board for ages, then posted anonymously, it's a process to learn to trust again.
who cannot make eye contact with nobody else except me.
was that your experience?
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I don't mind a comb-over Hops if it's got a decent kind fun guy underneath ( I can tactfully steer him to the hairdressers later :) )
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Write,
Yep, He would not make eye contact with anyone but me. When we were together at first, people commented about how "shy" he was and how crazy about me he was. He was always holding onto me, usually standing behind me with his arms around me and talking only to me. I never saw anyone so smitten. Now I understand that this was part of the grooming process. His "shyness" was actually his complete lack of interest in other people, especially my friends as he they were not of any use to him. And his overt attachment to me was two things, his inability to meet others in the world without a shield in front of him and his excessive love bombing of me so that I felt so secure and moved in with him quickly.
axa
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I remember when my daughter was really ill being so stressed, driving from the hospital to my home, an hour away and screaming until my throat hurt. I felt so scared and alone in the world. I remember crying and screaming "all I want is someone to put their hand on my neck and hold the weight of my head" I knew then this was too much for me to expect. Nobody was going to hold me with love and help me carry my burden. I learned not to expect anything, even the smallest thing. I am very suspicious even of the smallest thing and always wonder what the motivation of the other is, my gut always felt they just want something from me and of course my experience confirmed this.
I feel different now. I know I am alone. I know it is a better place than hoping for something which is not available. I do not trust others but I am beginning to trust myself. I have figured out, at last, that I am responsible for my own happiness and when I neglect myself I am saying I am not worth being happy. I do not believe this any longer
THIS is my big question. Axa realized that she was alone. Are we alone b/c we have N relatives and N issues or is this a "LIFE" issue? If this is a simple minded question--- forgive me Ami
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well I was hoping someone would comment on this, does this mean I am doing good or just so deluded these days it's not worth even trying to advise me? :D
Hee.... to tell you the truth, I've sidestepped this thread like the plague, lol.
I can't imagine getting involved, dating, accepting a drink etc EVER AGAIN much less rehash the finer points of mate selection.
For you, I'll try to remember some of the things I thought would be important while dating.
1) In balance, spiritually, physically and emotionally
2) Allows me to be myself and accepts me, warts and all
3) Lord let them have some kind of sense of humor
4) someone who wants to be with me,my family and isn't all the time thinking of other things they'd rather be doing.
5) Priorities are in line. Children/family come first.
6) I'd add this to the list...... no addictions that will drive me nuts.
7) No scapegoating sociopaths.
8) No criminals.
9) No sociopathic criminals with a sociopathic Criminal Foos.
10) No sociopathic criminals with a sociopathic criminal Foos who would do me and my children harm.
That about sums it up.....::nodding::
Lord..... talk about lowering one's expectations, lol.
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1) single
2) non-sociopathic
3) brushes teeth
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Axa realized that she was alone. Are we alone b/c we have N relatives and N issues or is this a "LIFE" issue? If this is a simple minded question--- forgive me
Ami,
I don't think it's a simple minded question--it's a question that great philosophers have asked.
I think that in moments of acute self-awareness we become aware of how very alone we are. I think that healing from N relationships brings with it many moments of that kind of self-awareness, so maybe that's why we are so conscious of the aloneness. Most of the time we are busy with the life of a community and that is as it should be.
In moments that are very life changing--birth and death for example-- there is an aloneness within community, like you are in a bubble and you are viewing other people as though they are very far away. I don't think you can avoid the far-away feeling, even in the best of circumstances. It's a reflection of the truth of that moment--no one else can share the experience with you completely, no matter how much they love you or how much they want to. When the people around you are N's, the aloneness seems much deeper.
You are going through a traumatic time, Ami. I think that it isnt just the trauma, but also the life-changing nature of what you are going through that makes you feel alone.
CB
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CB---- How long did it take you to get wisdom like that? Did you go through what I am going through or am I going through it worse b/c I have a N mother Love Ami
I wanted to add something-----the "aloneness" really comes from not trusting myself to be my own friend and be in my own corner
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I wanted to add something else. Once I had an acupuncture treatment on Stomach 36--- right near the belly button. It made me "centered" for 3 days. During that time, I felt whole and not alone, at all. I felt "full and complete.
I felt that I was "there" for me. This is what I am yearning for.Now, I feel like a ghost apparition 'above the body of a person,if you have ever seen those pictures. I feel that my "self" is not in me. I know that someone must understand this..
The acupuncture treatment results did not last,but at least I know what I am shooting for.
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4) bathes regularly, changes clothes, uses deodorant
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THANK YOU----- you are so dear Love Ami
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excessive love bombing
that is so hard Ami when you desperately need some love, to withstand intense love-attacks.
In some ways culturally it's easier for other cultures to see it as insincerity, eg in English culture it's unacceptable to give praise or affection openly! People have to find other ways to abuse...and do.
But it's the hardest thing to get over having thought someone really loved you like you needed and then found it was just a routine.
Hard to trust to that sponteneity and affection again.
(((((((((((((((((((((((( Axa )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
someone who wants to be with me
this is so important lighter. If the partner doesn't want to be with you really it undermines self-esteem and well-being as well as happiness. Soemtimes I thought I would die from disappointment with my ex when I thought- finally, he's here with me, then it would be a mistake or he'd quickly revert.
no one else can share the experience with you completely, no matter how much they love you or how much they want to.
I think that's why it is so important to find people who can just be with ytou there in the moment even when they ( or you ) don't fully understand.
In my work I think that's what makes some people successful and others not- the ones who can just be there no matter what is happening and convey a sense of shared humanity and empathy even if things don't make sense or are fraught.
I've sat with people in very difficult circumstances or distraught and watched as they calmed simply by knowing I was there and able to stay with them and they belong in some sense and are safe.
the life-changing nature of what you are going through that makes you feel alone.
CB's right Ami, everyone else goes about the daily surface routine and we don't see their pain or deeper emotions....though as someone pointed out they are there too.
It's like when someone dies and life appears to go on unheeding around the bereaved....
Except you don't have a dead person and a funeral and all the rites of passage, or an easy way to tell everyone, this is what I've been going through.
That's why support groups like this are so important.
brushes teeth
bathes regularly, changes clothes, uses deodorant
Looks like we've a few of us had problems with smelly partners?
My ex wouldn't bathe enough or use deodorant, he said it was because of his skin condition but I think partially it was his low self-image and partly he doesn't think anyone should tell him what to do.
I find myself smelling guys now though, when I get close to them, I love the smell of their clean skin and faint perspiration and aftershave! :oops:
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My N's chemsitry is perfectly suited to mine.
Shame really.
I think he could have brushed his teeth better, more often.... but they're very nice teeth: /
It's his black souless being, that's the problem.
Not his bathing rituals.
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his black souless being, that's the problem.
is he gone from your life now?
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Talking about smells, here is a weird one. I used to love the smell of Xn when we were together first, he was very clean but had such a "soft, warm smell" About a year into the relationship I noticed, we had as good as stopped having sex at this stage, I could not smell him. It was as if he was without a body odour. Was it my nose, dont think so! or was it the fact that there was no one there?????? Answers please on a postcard
About aloneness, I am very much alone but manage it. With XN I was desperately lonely........... not there anymore.
axa
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Write, I'll mail you an update.
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I wish no one had to feel alone.
You are not alone, here is some love (((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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[
CB's right Ami, everyone else goes about the daily surface routine and we don't see their pain or deeper emotions....though as someone pointed out they are there too.
i want to get to the point that I have "weeded out N interference and can just face life issues. N distortions are "killer"( The feeling of worthlessness etc) ---- I guess that we ,as humans ,have seeds of these,but everything must get magnified when you have an N parent, Does this make sense? Do you think that I am looking at it right? Love Ami
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Does this make sense? Do you think that I am looking at it right?
yes. You are looking at it how it looks to you, feeling it how it feels to you. That is right.
The N stuff really wobbles our security with that I think, our sense of self and what is real or what is right. Coupled with my bipolar and difficult childhood I was lost for years.
***
Church guy and I have found a good place to build from; it feels perfectly natural and close when we talk, like we're being honest and ourselves. I think i told you I told him I want to date not get serious at first. We have these talks, go away and process things, talk again.
I've never done it like this before, it's like taking time to be sure before even taking a step.
Maybe I won;t always be quite this cautious.
But it is wonderful watching us both grow with the effect we are having on each other, and to see that he is consistent over time, and willing to give me time too.
He told me he isn't going to see anyone else.
He smells good, and his hand fits perfectly into mine, just the right amount of pressure! We smile at each other a lot now, just for no reason.
He says he'd like us to write some music together soon. He's not competetive now and is working on stuff of his own. I do tend to bring out that side in people, maybe I should tone down my showing off in future?!
***
Ex has forgiven me now and is fine again.
He said tonight he didn't think hitting me was so bad....I just looked at him and said 'we all minimise our faults'.
I think he sees more and more that it's him who is off-balance.
But he doesn't care enough to change anything.
I feel insecure if i spend too much time around him, I ty to just do family stuff and cut him off with his negativity or criticism if I can.
Funny though how fond of him I am despite everything....
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Church guy and I have found a good place to build from; it feels perfectly natural and close when we talk, like we're being honest and ourselves. I think i told you I told him I want to date not get serious at first. We have these talks, go away and process things, talk again.
I've never done it like this before, it's like taking time to be sure before even taking a step.
Maybe I won;t always be quite this cautious.
But it is wonderful watching us both grow with the effect we are having on each other, and to see that he is consistent over time, and willing to give me time too.
He told me he isn't going to see anyone else.
He smells good, and his hand fits perfectly into mine, just the right amount of pressure! We smile at each other a lot now, just for no reason.
Personally, and maybe it's just the space I occupy right now, I think you're going PLENTY fast, Write.
I also think it's a bit out of bounds to tell you that he's not seeing anyone else. There are strings attached, he wants you see ONLY HIM. Before you're ready for that. <tapping foot> This does not puhleeeeeeze me.
I am not pleased. Hmmm.... not sure that should matter to you, in the slightest but, just a caution from the dark side. I want better things to keep happening to you, now that you're free of your ex.
Another flag for me was all that smiling. If you can't wipe the grin OFF your face, I believe it's going to be trouble down the road. Just a hard and fast rule of mine. I save those boys for "dating" and nothing more seriouse.,errrrrrr, at least I used to, when I dated, lol.
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Don't worry about me Lighter!
I am fine.
Things are pretty good so far as I can see, I am enjoying being happy.
I also think it's a bit out of bounds to tell you that he's not seeing anyone else.
well he's very attractive, one of the things which I wondered when i first met him was if he is one of the 'player' types who so often can't resist all the constant attention.
I think that's why he told me that, I hinted about someone else I dated who had women everywhere!
Actually I am getting a lot of attention from men myself right now!
Which is nice but I also have the self-awareness now to just enjoy it and flirt a little but be more discerning than getting involved with someone I don't know.
I know myself beter. i don't do casual....
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write,
believe behaviour over time, not words
hugs
axa
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believe behaviour over time, not words
absolutely.
I think this is why it is important to go slow, the words are what we want to hear and easily deliverable, but the corresponding actions....
I think I am getting into a rhythmn of doing this more humanly though too, not simply demanding and dismissing. I am not perfect and someone else will not be either, it's what happens over time, do you move together towards common goals and intimacy or play games and keep distance.
Preciously I have always kept people at a distance whilst I act somewhat superior about my position. I haven't trusted anyone entirely in a long time including myself. Especially myself.
There is a level of surrender to that to get close to someone, to trust going over the bumps and asking for what I need, and it's getting easier as I know more and more what things I can compromise, what things are non-negotiable.
The book arrived Hops recommended about things to consider before marriage, it's only small but it's full of ideas about what it really means to be married, and how a relationship is developed and negotiated.
My therapist said to me a few weeks ago, a relationship needs two separate individuals first, I don't think I have ever been that totally separate grown up coping living individual before, that's why I have buried myself in difficult relationships and situations.
***
Church guy is taking son with me to get music school supplies tomorrow.
I want to see how he responds to my son before they know each other, the first thing my ex will do if I start seeing him is stir him up and yesterday he announced again he is thinking of quitting his job and moving state.
I don't think my son will go, though.
I really hope I can have a relationship with someone who takes his role model position more seriously; I certainly would not have a child with someone again who could not be a parent when it's required.
It's exhausting and infuriating.
***
Okay, 11 am.
Start work!!!!
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Write,
I think your T is right for a relationship to survive the two people need to be seperate. This is something which has just hit me. The desire for symbotic type relationships. I kept my distance in the beginning and XN tried to make it symbiotic. Over time I gave in and we became totally enmeshed, once that happened he knew he had me and the abuse started. What I am learning is that one must have their own life, their own boundaries or else there is no relationship. It reminds me of the dance he stepped in, I stepped out, going on and on and noone meeting the other. We have to meet ourselves to be able to be healthy. Must go back to Fear of Intimacy. I think we were so starved of love that we drop everything and loose ourselves in the hope that the other will see us, hear us and meet our needs....... not possible. I have never seen this so clearly before.
I know if I meet someone I will look on it as a practise run with all the lessons I have learned whizzing around in my head. I never want to end up in an N relationship again. I just could not bear it. Alone is certainly a more attractive option. Not sure I would trust myself yet though.
I think Write the focus needs to be on your needs. Are they being met. Are you happy in other areas of your life. If church guy disappeared would it just be a blip and could your life continue without any great damage done or loss.
axa
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[ Not sure I would trust myself yet though.
This was my point on the thread about "trusting yourself. It is the foundation for so many aspects of life( ALL of them).In a relationship,if you don't trust yourself, you are screwed from beginning to end(I think).
I look back on my relationships. I stopped trusting myself at 14. Before that, I had best friends and "boyfriends . I remember feeling that the MOST important relationship was the relationship with myself.I was always WITH myself-- like it or not. So, I better form the bond with myself first. I did not feel "lost "in other people, at that time.I also did not need that much validation from people.
" I guess that, at least, I had a short time in life when I might have been healthy. At least,I know what It feels like even thought it has been such a long time that I have been "screwed up."
I think that another of the basic foundations to trusting yourself is realizing that you are alone.Then ,you will l be more apt to take better care of yourself emotionally b/c when the" door closes", it is just you .
I think that when we are in a screwed up relationship, it is not so much what the person did to us as what we "gave away" ---our own power.
I just finished a book on Princess Diana--- A Royal Duty-by Paul Burrell-.. .Diana, with all her "toys" was like us. She said that what really took down the royal marriage was her lack of self esteem. . She made all these "counter moves", based on her own lack of self love, which ended up causing the divorce. The counter moves were made b/c she could not sit with her own pain and own her own esteem(IMO).Our gift to ourself has to be self love if we are to have anything good in life-- anything of quality. I am seeing this now. I have to love myself. It is not an optional thing. I am seeing that the "truth" is to love myself. The 'false" is to demean myself
Love Ami
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If church guy disappeared would it just be a blip and could your life continue without any great damage done or loss.
interesting you should say this today Axa, I was only thinking this morning how relaxed I am about him, I never seem to know when we will speak again we don't end everything with 'when will i see you' type things which I have felt like before, insecure until I know the outcomes.
But I was thinking this morning how much I am enjoying this and knowing that if it doesn't work out I will still have the rest of my life and there are certainly a lot more men around than I realised. Maybe I scared them all off before!
But I was thinking about what do I want out of the next two years, what would I compromise for a relationship and a baby, what is essential to keep as 'my life'.
***
He was wonderful with my son, very relaxed and natural and son enjoyed it very much having a playful and happy man around for a while.
His dad just has so many issues it's hard to relax around him even when he's trying.
In fact I decided just now that I must try not to be uptight and to relax more, son is growing up so fast.
***
He had me cut his har this morning, he looks like my little boy again!
He said something blasphemous, then looked sheepish and didn't repeat it!
I hope he is always close to his dad, but I alo hope one of the good things which will come from my new life is a male role model or role models, I will cultivate suitable friends too!
***
Yes, loving self takes time but once I did Ami everything changed. Everything.
I don't feel angry with myself much now, I am learning to be more and much more patient even when I screw up.
~W
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WRITE,
Could you tell me the steps that you took to find "self love? Thanks so much Ami
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Don't worry about me Lighter!
I am fine.
Things are pretty good so far as I can see, I am enjoying being happy.
I also think it's a bit out of bounds to tell you that he's not seeing anyone else.
well he's very attractive, one of the things which I wondered when i first met him was if he is one of the 'player' types who so often can't resist all the constant attention.
I think that's why he told me that, I hinted about someone else I dated who had women everywhere! *******
The adrenaline hit my heart, hot and quick... HERE! ******* Right at this point in your post. Sure sure sure, I can't really be trusted right now but.... just know that it hit and I piped up.
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Could you tell me the steps that you took to find "self love?
the best best best thing anyone can do in my opinion is invest in long-term therapy with a good psychologist.
Over the months and then years it becomes apaprent what needs to be done and how to change life without it being too overwhelming.
My self-love was blocked for years because of abuse and because I have bipolar and always saw myself as flawed.
Managing the bipolar was a big thing.
I don't think I have changed much in the way I am with others, except I have bigger boundaries once someone demonstrates they require them!
But with myself losing the perfectionism and trusting- G_d, me, others, 'the universe'.....the process of healing and of growth......
***
The adrenaline hit my heart, hot and quick... HERE! ******* Right at this point in your post. Sure sure sure, I can't really be trusted right now but.... just know that it hit and I piped up.
not sure why Lighter, but don't worry. I really am fine, and things will be fine.
The whole conversation came out of some misunderstanding banter, he doesn't like people at church to know about his relationships because as I know now the women are always trying to fix him up; he said it all wrong and it came out as though he was boasting that women are always chasing him! I teased him but made it clear I am not interested in a fling or in playing competetive games.
***
That guy who had all the women rejected me btw.
He said I would never tolerate his inevitable straying!
~W
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the best best best thing anyone can do in my opinion is invest in long-term therapy with a good psychologist.
I guess that step one is out (LOL). I do like the idea of giving up perfectionism, trusting God,trusting the process of healing.,and having better boundaries. Thanks WRITE.
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I guess that step one is out (LOL).
you mean financially?
My T costs $145 for 40 minutes, when I was rich I didn't have to worry about costs much, but now I do and I budget for one meeting a month, which a rearrange soemtimes for when I feel I'll need extra support ( like the divorce week )
A support group can be good if you can find a suitable one; my writing group is good, and the little late-night-clan at my gym pool.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Since I am in a relationship, which inevitably seems to have its periodic ups and downs, mine may be a little less optimistic
that's funny Bean! So I need to lower my ideals a bit once I actually get involved? Someone else said that actually, and it's true, it's an overall balance thing rather than a check-list.
Though there are a few absolute 'no-go' behaviours and attitudes which I know i couldn't get beyond, like prejudice or cruelty or no personal hygiene...
I like your list, it does feel more realistic than mine which of course is not totally tested in reality yet.
Though I was very impressed that church guy came out with my son and was kind and supportive; son has been so different since Thursday, even his dad commented. He needs to see more men besides his father, who he looks up to and I am reluctant to mess with that, but also disappointed at the role model he provides.
The other guy I like is another man who won't do casual relationships either, we talked generally a while back at a party. I think a few discerning people are gettign dismayed at the culture of casual sex and lack of relationship-building which became the norm for dating when I was younger. I was married so it never affected me, but when I have been single it has felt quite strange, once I was with this guy I had been getting to know and things became quite passionate between us. He kissed me when he left and I was unsure, I said 'so are we dating now?' He kissed my nose and smiled affectionately. 'No. We are friends...'
I didn't see him again, partly because I felt uncomfortable because I was still married, but I am glad now. I don't get passionate with my firends!
I think it's exciting you are looking.
what is interesting is how much fun it is, now I am not worried about what will happen.
Having all these ideas what I would like or not, and knowing how to set boundaries and what to do when they are crossed is really helpful.
But the biggest thing is I am trusting again.
A love relationship does require a level of trust and surrender to vulnerability I have never been able to do before, and an ability to be yourself.
I really feel I am myself now, who I want to be.
I look different somehow too, the way I walk and my eyes sparkle more.
Bean, I LOVE life!
Is your relationship going better?
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WRITE
You sound like you love yourself. I am so happy for you .I want this so badly. The "not going to therapy thing " is b/c I don't trust therapists. My N mother is a therapist.I think that I will go back to a support group ,though.
Write-- attractiveness is something that shines through a person when they feel good. and whole.
If I had one wish it would be to love and honor myself.
I am trying to let go of all the N ideas that my mother gave me.At the bottom is me---- and i want to own that'
I am glad that you and your son had a nice time with the church guy.
Love Ami
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when you say your son needs to see more men? You mean he needs to see you with more men or just in general, he doesn't get a chance to be around them (uncles, grandfather?)
I mean to see different men as in role models. He has no family here at all. He only really gets to be around his dad, we have been spending more time with others but his dad is practically a recluse, and very critical of others too.
Son needs role models who don't have these behaviours I think, in settings where he can make his own observations.
They have gone to baseball tonight. I do like that ex makes an effort with him though, he wouldn't do hardly any of this if we hadn't split.
You're right Bean, casual sex is not for the sensitive!
"Most marital enrichment approaches emphasize other-validated intimacy: expecting empathy, reciprocity, and validation from your partner when you disclose. The Passionate Marriage Approach emphasizes self-validated intimacy; validating and accepting your own disclosures, and soothing your own heart. This shift allows you to resolve emotional gridlock, intimacy problems, sexual boredom and low desire, and develop a more passionate loving relationship."
I think people don't know what to write next!
Why be in a marriage if you can provide all these things for yourself is my immediate thought....
***
My trust levels dipped again today.
I am overwhelmed with everything, exhausted.
I was playing the piano today and looked at my hands and thought 'am I doing this?'
Think I have been overdoing it.
Time for a swim.....
Goodnight everyone.
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Aww, Write.
More sleep for you, okay?
Maybe not so much life-changing charging ahead all at once.
You still need time to process being divorced, moving, other things...
There IS time. Plenty of it.
For son...Boy Scouts? He will get a lot of positves there.
If not, how about a youth group at church?
Or a sports team? Both?
Hops
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Dear S and S,
I don't think that I could put myself in another "therapists" hands. I could be in a group where there are many differing viewpoints. I just don't want to trust therapy again.Thanks for the loving opinion. I am so glad that you were helped. .
I am so glad that you are here to tell your story. I never realized how bad your Dad was. It is such a long road to overcome them. Love Ami
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Write,
I came across this in my "saved documents" sorry - i can't site the source but it's from an article I ran across online. Thought you might enjoy reading this.
"When you first meet him, you should feel that he wants you. It may be conveyed by a look, a touch, a compliment or attention to detail. It should be backed up by his willingness to make a plan and move the relationship forward. Constant calling, e-mailing and text-messaging is not true contact since he cannot touch you, see you, adore you or get to know you.
Soon after meeting him, you will discover that he has appropriately achieved in at least one area of his life. If he went to college he now has a good job. If he inherited his parents' business, he has learned how to successfully manage it. His efforts continue to generate new opportunities, new skills, new challenges or new possessions.
He says what he means and means what he says. And the words that he speaks are backed up by action that coincides. Even if he cannot give a guarantee, the relationship is always moving forward. Thus, you will never find yourself drunk-dialing at 2AM because you fear he is out with another girl.
It will feel reciprocal and mutual. Do you feel that what he gives is as valuable and meaningful as what you offer? Is he as devoted to you as you are to him? Healthy relationships are based upon mutual give and take. If the only thing that you are getting out of this relationship is text messages, e-mails or occasional plans, you are not getting what you need.
He will have good friends and you will like who he is when he's with them. You are confident that he is the man you know and love whether he's with you or apart from you. When he's out of sight, he does not turn into somebody else. Conversely, when you include him with your friends, you know who he will be -- charming and engaging, enhancing instead of detracting.
He will like you for who you are. Even if you have a bad day or say something that he does not like, his adoration will remain steady and his view of you will remain the same. Beware of the guy whose perception changes whenever you deviate from his expectations. You should not feel that you must suppress your personality in order to hold onto his approval.
He will never view you as unconditionally bad or make you feel terrible about yourself. Even in the midst of an argument, he will be able to see both the good and the bad in you. He will not stay mad at you once the argument is over. And he will move on instead of clinging to bad feelings or suspicions. He loves you and sees you as a good person, no matter what.
If he is right for you, he will tolerate the unexpected and the unknown because he trusts you. He will not pin you down or put a leash on you every moment of the day in order to feel secure. Instead, he will respect your boundaries and give you the privacy and independence you deserve. Conversely, he will not block you out or use distance to keep the upper hand
He has a learning curve. He is willing to learn from his mistakes and to modify his actions. For instance, if he begins a friendship with a flirtatious girl and you let him know that this is creating a problem, he will be concerned about your feelings and come up with a solution. When you discuss relationship obstacles, he works on them.
He will seek his own solutions. If he has a problem he will reach out to others for help, find resources, have a conversation, go to therapy, attend a 12-step program -- anything that will move him closer to making the changes that he needs to make. Pride, laziness or stubbornness will not keep him from taking the steps that he needs to have a relationship with you.
He will not try to have power over you. He won't leave you wondering where he is and what he is doing. Or leave you hanging just to prove a point. Even if he has more money, status and power, he will not make you feel that you would be nothing without him. He is willing to listen, meet your needs and include you in mutual decision making."
Dandylife
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Do people like that exist? (It is a serious question even though it sounds like a joke) Ami
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Yes they do, Ami.
It's MUD.
And James.
And all those good guys we haven't met because we had not adjusted our radar.
Hops
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Radar adjustment--please Ami