Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: elculbr on June 15, 2007, 11:11:28 PM
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Someone suggested "Stalking the Soul". I read it, but it wasn't useful. She never discussed physical violence. she would label an abusive behavior "direct violence" or something to that effect, and I would think she would start to talk about physical violence, but she means blatant verbal assaults, which is bad, but hitting takes it to a different universe and she doesn't even talk about it. And her "family section" is woefully inadequate: it is brief and without depth and she only focuses on the abuser using the offspring against the other parent or the child getting hurt in the crossfire between the adults. She doesn't suggest that the child IS the target of abuse. It seems that even Marie-France Hirigoyen can't fathom just how evil they are.
This book didn't help me because I feel no guilt over being abused. I didn't understand why this was happening to me, I felt that I was trash and wished that I would die in my sleep. But now that I'm older I don't feel like trash. I don't feel myself at all. I was always afraid of him. I couldn't look him in the eye. But now, I don't fear him. I physically confronted this fear last year. Merely being in his presence disgusts me. I seriously considered killing him last year. Although being in his presence makes my skin crawl, I can (and would love to have the opportunity) to spit in his face. I don't care that he is 6'4 and 250 lbs. There is no denial or guilt. That book just doesn't apply to me.
I heard so many good reviews for this book, but it is mainly for workplace abuse and abusive relationships. It was so disappointing. I thought I would finally get the right book. Forgive me, but I don't consider verbal assaults "direct violence" or true violence. Calling someone trash until they cut themselves is not violence. Violence is slicing their wrists for them.
And she falls into a trap that troubles me. I have been online looking for resources, but all the ones I read seem to fall short of what I'm looking for. They focus mostly on N abuse to spouses. And most physical abuse resources focus on wife battering and most articles on child abuse is about child sexual abuse. I was looking at psychology databases last night for peer review articles , and there was nothing. Nothing. At most they say, "..and emotional abuse can lead to other forms of abuse..." Profound.
Could anyone suggest to me any books that would address my history?
* I have already read: Drama of the Gifted Child, Trapped in a Mirror, People of the Lie, and another one that eludes me now.
And
Is it possible that my F really isn’t an N at all? Maybe he is something else?
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http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html
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Dear El
You are so smart.Getting rightd down to it and researching so thoroughly. Good for you.
I think you are right in wondering if your violent parent is more than an N. Most Ns fit on the spectrum of other diagnostic labels ie.pyschopath, sociopath,etc. Narcissists can be aggressive, paranoid, obsessive complusive. In the writing it says that narcissism is pervasive personality disorder that affects every area of functioning. It is hard to grasp what this really means. Having no empathy and little or no conscience is huge.
I have read everything I can get my hands on about narcissism and somehow this knowledge did not set me free. I am victim, not in the way that you are but in a seriously affective way none the less. I guess i am trying to say that you know enough from reading and from this site to know that you were terribly abused and that no decent parent would do that to his child. The IMPACT of that abuse is your post traumatic syndrome. Anyone who had that happen to them would have the same preditable reactions. You seem to be very wounded but also bright and resourcefull and reaching out. Those are treasures of character that will lead you home if you follow your intuition. Not your fear or anger but that still place inside you that always knew you were not to blame.
John Bradshaw writes about healing the inner child and has a lot of helpful things to say. He identifies many kinds of abuse that chidlren go through. I don't think anyone minimizes the damage that physical brutality does to a child. It is a criminal offense.
I am glad to see that you keep coming back. It really does work.
Love from,
Sea storm
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Hops,
http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html is a brilliant website - very relevant, thank you.
Janet
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I hear ya, el. My Therapist went through months where he kept asking me if I was "angry at myself?" yet. Quite frankly, I've not come to that point and I know I was tricked skillfully and artfully, by some one who's very very good at what they do. I think I've been kind to myself, already forgiven for the red flags I ignored and explained away. I don't anticipate this HUGE ANGER at myself and it frustrates me when he goes there.
I don't have another book suggestion for'ya. But I hope you make all the contacts available to you. I know that your new therapist and any others you get to talk with, will have ideas.
By the way, you keep surprising me with your strength. I hope you can begin to see this as a journey and that you're going to be exposed to the good and the bad in life, the ying and the yang. There can be no good without bad and God knows, you're due for some good.
Just a suggestion. Ask your T if doing some volunteer work, say..... at a women's shelter..... wouldn't help you with some of that free weekend time you find yourself struggling with. Nothing like reaching and helping those less fortunate than yourself. You can understand what abused children might be feeling and thinking. Maybe helping them will be cathartic for you? Maybe not, just something to bring up with your T.
I may be posting less but, I'm still here and rooting for you, El.
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Stalking the Soul helped me understand my M's situation. Do you think her identity has been eroded? She said that there were things in her life that made her a "not strong" person.
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Try 'Toxic Parents' and 'Emotional Blackmail', el, and anything else you can find by Susan Forward.
Hit a used bookstore - being at university you should have a fair number of them close by - hopefully they'll let you skim through books, so you can buy only the ones that are helpful based on an actual look at their contents.
Look for anything you can find by Janet Geringer Woititz, and skim it while you are there. She wrote mostly in the 1980s, for adult children of alcoholics, but the issues ACOAs face are much the same as ACODFs [DFs = dysfunctional families] face.
Also look for a book called People of the Lie, by Scott Peck. This book won't so much teach you what to do about what you have been through as it will teach you how to see it, how to sort out the lies and posturing from what really went on. [Edit in: oopsie, I see you read this one. Somehow I missed that. It was one of the most useful for me - I hope you'll find it increasingly useful as time goes on.]
And try a book called Without Conscience by Robert Hare, also a book called Snakes in Suits by Dr. Hare and John Babiak. There is also a book called The Sociopath Next Door which I have not read but want to...
Something a bit radical now. I'm over 50 and don't know how college courses are structured anymore [I was shocked to discover that kids don't have mandatory phys ed in school these days, that's how out of touch I am, I have no children] but... if you have time and it fits in and you think it could help... consider taking a criminology class, but look for one that emphasizes criminal psychology. Forensic psychology, this would be. You can probably audit it without having to take prerequisite classes.
One word of caution. Once you know how to 'see', you can't become blind again, and you may find that you encounter a great deal of denial in your daily life, and there is pretty much nothing you can do about most of it. This is frustrating, and it really can wear a person down. You will also find that once you know how to 'see', you also know how to 'see through', and there is even more denial associated with this. What I mean is you will recognize phonies like tayana's mother, because you will sense that they are 'trying too hard', you will be able to detect a certain 'staginess' in their actions and words, you'll be able to see them 'watching' to see if the bait is being taken, and you'll be able to see their teeth gleaming - it's a metaphor but I swear that is exactly what it feels like - when they describe how they harm or constrain others, how they ambushed someone psychologically, how they took something away from someone. That little glint of nasty triumph. It will be obvious to you.
I do not mean that you will be hypervigilant and regard every human on the planet as a potential enemy - that 'one extreme or the other' business is a major distortion and something to be rejected whenever you hear it from anyone. [helpful hint: when folks take something you do or say and push it to the extreme of a continuum in order to make it 'bad', they're practicing a form of distortion, and they're telling you a lot about themselves. This is a defense mechanism. Heed the message.]
What I mean is that your subconscious mind will be much more in tune to and allied with your conscious mind. It's the subconscious that usually picks up the 'cues', if the conscious isn't prepared to receive them, the observation does nothing but make you feel uneasy. If you can get these two levels of awareness well attuned and working together, you'll be amazed not only at what you see, but what you can figure out, and how fast it falls into place. And you'll have a lot of confidence in your own ability to understand and interpret. It will feel solid to you, because it will be solid.
I know this because it's been my own journey, more or less.
I did some searches. With 'adult children of batterers' I got ONE hit. Unfreakingbelievable. I got much more when I searched on 'battered children grow up' - over a million hits. Here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%27battered+children+grow+up%27&btnG=Google+Search
and with 'abused children grow up' I got 1.3 million hits. Here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%27abused+children+grow+up%27&btnG=Search
Hope this helps.
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Try
http://www.drirene.com
Also you might try just searching on Amazon for different books. I did that and found several to read. My library had a couple so I reserved though. I second the Susan Forward books. They've helped me.
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Stormchild,
There is a criminal psychology class being offered next semester. I will see if it fits with my schedule.
I read the link "you carry the cure in your heart." It's good. Sometimes I wonder if it is all in my head-which is something that my F used to say to shut down criticism.
Thanks for responding everyone.
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Dear El,
It is "all in our head" in that we were programmed wrong. If we can erase those "faulty" programs and replace them with the truth about ourselves,then we can be free. Easier said than done,of course. Love Ami
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Storm,
I went on a search too. I was amazed at how little information is available on the subject of physical abuse of children. That makes me think there is mass denial of it. :(
Edit in: el, I just found that Steve Martin the comedian wrote a book titled, Born Standing Up. Haven't read it, but it apparently tells the story of physical abuse from his father. Chevy Chase the comedian was also physically abused and wrote about it.
tt
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Hi elculbr,
I am sorry to hear how little luck you are having with this:( From what I little I've read about your situation, I would suggest that your spouse is a psycopath (sometimes referred to as a `sociopath'), not a Narcissist. NPD sufferers are rarely known for physical violence. I would start with searching for literature about psycopathy and sociopathy. These people are similar, but also quite different creatures to Narcissists. One difference is that they are fully conscious of what they are doing, and because of this consciousness I have no hestiation in saying that they are genuinely evil people. If this is what you're dealing with, no wonder you are so consumed with anger and thoughts of revenge sometimes. I think it is a very natural response. Just be careful and don't do something that will cause you yet more harm (like going to jail). Don't let him win.
I had a brief dating experience with a psychopath once, so I can relate to some of those extreme `revenge' fantasies you described. That was the only experience in my life where I was actually battered by a guy. Its the only time in my life where someone has said to me with utmost sincerity that he wanted to rape children, and had done so before. It was the only time in my life where I woke up to being punched in the stomach over and over because `it would do the most damage and wouldn't be provable in a court of law'. And he laughed while he said it!
You're right-there is nothing to describe it, and it doesn't compare to emotional violence. All I remember of it now is my rage. I was so angry, that my skin broke out in large red spots all over me!
Oh, and my revenge fantasies were something special too:) I had bucket loads of them. I only acted out a few of them and he got off lucky. If you choose to take your own justice, be very careful and stay safe.
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Bella,
That sounds just awful. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
El,
I hope you can find the right label for what your father is - he certainly sounds evil to me, but I don't know the psychological label for it. I found that, once I had the label NPD for my Nmum and Nsister, although it doesn't take any of the pain away, it does start the process of closure. It makes you feel more sane if there's a recognised illness name for what you've experienced. You can start the grieving process then, and start to heal. So, I hope you can get that bit sorted. The therapist you are going to be working with should be able to help you with the labelling, as well as your healing.
Janet
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I recommended STalking the Soul because it describes so well my XN. For me it was wonderful to see in black and white what I knew in my heart. I find that people make excuses for Ns, oh, they cant be all bad etc.... reading this book validated my experience in that she KNOWS there is no one there inside an N. Most people don't get that. I remember when I first had sex with XN the sentance which went through my brain was "it' like there is nobody here besides me". My gut was better than I thought. I like that she acknowledges the truth of N victims.
WIll talk about the book more later.
I was physically battered by Nmother for most of my childhood. Somedays I would do something "wrong" just to get the beating out of the way as quickly as possible. Of course the onslaught of verbal abuse continued throughout the day. For me, the physical abuse was easier to deal with in that I had evidence of the abuse whereas the verbal abuse - the clean violence was what did the most significant damage to me.
Having been in a non violent abusive relationship for the past number of years it almost killed me. I know that physically he would never hurt me, he left no visible scars but I felt so beaten down and shattered that I thought of suicide. I think that this is the depth of the "clean violence" they want you to finish off the work they started and of course then you become the crazy one.
axa
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Bella,
Is it really unusual for Narcissists to use physical violence? And he was my father, not my spouse. Is it possible to be both a psychopath and a narcissist? He fits the description on a Narcissist who uses cruel violence to destroy ("create" in his opinion) into what he wanted. Is this characteristic of any particular disorder?
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el, psychopaths are often described as malignant narcissists. They are the worst kind of narcissist there is. Read anything you can get your hands on by Robert Hare...
here's a google search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Dr.+Robert+Hare&btnG=Google+Search
and one of the links with a pretty decent summary of this stuff
http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html
on the lovefraud site, another pretty decent summary of how these creeps fool so many people so much of the time
http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/sociopaths_blend_in.html
Hang in there. Celebrate Your Freedom From This Creep, today, or let it be a day like any other. You are free.
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I read a wikipedia description of psychopathy-that describes my F very well. I will look up Robert Hare. thanks for the links Stormchild.
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Dear El,
You are an inspiration to me. I see you digging yourself out of your hole- little by little. I am with you,Friend ,digging myself out,little by little . Love Ami
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Anybody ever seen www.myray.com (http://www.myray.com) ?
what do you think?
Hops
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Bella,
Is it really unusual for Narcissists to use physical violence? And he was my father, not my spouse. Is it possible to be both a psychopath and a narcissist? He fits the description on a Narcissist who uses cruel violence to destroy ("create" in his opinion) into what he wanted. Is this characteristic of any particular disorder?
I'm so sorry for the mixup El! That is so awful that you were raised in the same home as a violent father. Hugs to you! I can only imagine the pain you have suffered.
I'm afraid I do not know much about Narcissists and their level of violence towards children. That is something I have not read about, El. Is your father generally violent? Or is it something he directed mainly at his children and in secret? My mother is a Somatic narcisisst and I can confirm that she went through violent spells. I suppose she let herself off the hook as mother because she could pass it off as `discipline'. But the reality is she would get into moods, target the weakest of us and then use violence to `blow off steam'. For example, when my little sister was learning to read, my mother would pick out books that were too difficult for her to read and make her try to read them each night. My little sister would struggle with the advanced words, and so my mother would beat her over and over for what seemed like hours. It became a habit for some months; possibly as long as a year. She would also fly into violent rages a lot when we were teens.
But I feel that, like a lot of narcissists, she was very careful about protecting her `image' as a perfect mother. So when she was violent, she was extremely secretive about it and she always had justifications. Mostly she was emotionally abusive.
Psychopathy seems like a different entity to me, although psychopaths seemingly have similar emotional goals to Narcissists on the surface, such as the need to feel powerful and superior. A major difference to me is that psychopaths seem to get their sense of power directly from anti-social behaviour especially violence and intimidation. Narcissists seem to get theirs from carefully nuturing and protecting a fantasy where they consider themselves `perfect and superior'. If naricissists are rarely violent, it would be because such behaviour would interfere with their fantasy of being perfect.
PS. Great links Stormchild!
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My father was violent in secret to the kids, and he only stopped after the police were involved. Apparently there is "malignant narcissism" which is the link between narcissism to psychopathy. And might have that. In any case, I'm through with him.
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El:
We have to convince ourselves that we are worthy, capable of protecting ourselves. Then we begin faking it till we get it.
YAY! Bravo for you. I hope you'll seek out nurturing strong empathetic awesome role models and support people, in a variety of different settings. Hang in with that, exposing yourself over and over...and throw in some volunteering as you have time, with people who've had it hard too...
and you will heal and find meaning and purpose, El.
I think you are stepping out toward a richly rewarding life.
Hops
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On Sam Vakin:
I can't stand him. He almost has a monopoly on internet NPD resources. Why do people trust him? He is using people to feed his disorder.
When you first begin looking up NPD, Vakin is the first thing you will find..he is leading people astray.
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El,
I agree.
Deb
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Me too.
Vaknin did help peel my eyeballs and shake me out of denial...
but after that, it's like choosing Tony Soprano to be your financial planner because he's made some money.
Yugggh.
Hops
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el,
I'm with you. Vaknin is obnoxious. Not saying he has not published some good stuff, but obnoxious to the max.
tt
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El,
I totally agree with you. Vaknin is weird (he must be, he's an N).
I emailed him last year, questioning his theory as described on his *huge* website, as I saw holes in it that I wanted answered, and got a VERY nasty reply back.
Janet
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I have to say that Vaknin is a "sledge hammer",but my denial was so great that a sledge hammer was just what I needed. I could not '"get" what N was until I read Vaknin. Then, after he mauled me, I got it. I guess it is just about which "medicine" fits which individual Love Ami