Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on June 24, 2007, 08:54:38 PM
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I was really dreading this weekend, but it seems to have passed without too much fuss or strain. Although my father did tell me this morning that my mother's feelings were hurt because I didn't want her to come clean with me. I never said she couldn't come. She said something to me after I'd gone for my evening walk, and I was hot and sweaty. I'll admit I wasn't enthusiastic about her help, but given my mother, she read a whole lot into the whole thing that wasn't there. Of course, she also thinks everyone sits around and talks about her all the time too.
Yesterday, my son and I went to the ball game with my brother and his wife. We had a great time. The timing of the game wasn't great, but I bought the tickets in March, and it was our one baseball game of the year, unless M wins tickets. After the game, we stopped at the apartment so M could see it, and he really liked it. My brother and his wife thought it was really nice and very similar to their townhouse. My mom still hasn't seen it.
I offered this morning to let her go if she wanted, but no, she was too busy being offended. She was offended that I didn't call her from there when we got there. I ended up having fun with water when I discovered my dishwasher doesn't work properly. So I was simply too busy to call. Then when I get home, she gives me a lecture about how to use the dishwasher and why it wasn't working. I told her I would call the maintenance people tomorrow. So then I got a lecture about how they would steal something.
So now she wants to know what else I need to buy. The only thing I "Need" to buy is a washer and dryer, and I'd just gotten a lecture a few days ago about how I could let that go for a little while and just user hers for a few weeks.
I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. She told me instead of going down there and cleaning, I should have stayed home and packed. I've made great headway on my packing, really, and I'd packed stuff this morning. I swear she just wants me to say, "i'm sorry, I made a mistake. We aren't moving after all."
Although, all my pretty new dishes and things are put away in my now very clean cabinets. And I have olives, hot peppers and chocolate in my pantry. Of course, I supposedly wasted my time cleaning the kitchen and bathrooms. I don't have my brand new vacuum cleaner put together yet, so I couldn't vacuum.
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((((((((((((Tayan)))))))))))))
She will always criticize what you do.
She will always find fault.
She will always have a mean streak.
Aren't you glad you're almost OUT??
Olives and chocolate and hot peppers.
Now that's living!
I'm so glad you're almost out.
Hops
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I am so glad I am almost out, Hops. So glad. The first thing I'm going to do, after some grocery shopping, is make brownies. There is brownie mix in the pantry too. I love to bake, and I haven't gotten to bake in so long.
Just once, I would like for her to say something like. "I know you're trying to get all settled, but I know there some things you wanted at Target (or other store). Here's a gift card, get something on me. I'm so excited for you."
Fat chance of this, but I can always dream.
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Tayana,
You're doing great. Isn't it amazing how another's "feelings" can invade our personal boundaries? I was taught in therapy to use my "symbol" of protection (my therapist took me on a guided imagery and asked me to bring along a companion. She asked who is your companion? And I answered a lioness. She found that quite symbolic - protective!) Let your "lioness" protect your personal boundaries - keeping out inappropriate feelings of others - you can even picture every time one of those inappropriate feelings of your mother's bounces off it - it only becomes stronger.
Take care of your feelings and nurture and protect them.
It's your mother's job to get her own "protector", if she so chooses! Your mother, N though she may be, does have personal power - she can help herself.
It's been inspiring reading your story.
Dandylife
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And I have olives, hot peppers and chocolate in my pantry.
Tayana,
This made me smile! What a picture of your hardwon freedom. It says so much about what you are gaining.
Love
CB
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I'm just glad she isn't being more awful than she is.
Expect the drama to escalate as you get closer to the final move out day.
I might actually pull a little switcheroo and tell her you're not moving out for another 2 weeks. "M just needs more time," THEN RUN LIKE HELL days before she expects it!
Ahem.
Sorry.
I really don't like your having to be subjected to her this long.
I know you're getting out, I just worry for ya.
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Lighter,
I figure she'll sulk most of moving day, or else she'll direct the show. She was trying to do that last night whenever my brother and his wife were here and talking about loading the truck I rented. She was telling my SIL how good she is at packing trucks.
She talks about taking M out of stable home. I figured out one year when I was in college, that I had moved 23 times, and I was only 20. Not very stable huh?
CB, yes, when I was putting those jars of things in the pantry I was thinking . . . what more could a girl want? Well, peanut butter might help too. We still have to go to the grocery store.
Dandy, I'm glad you find inspiration in my story, although I still don't see anything inspiring about it. I feel a little like a loser, having been stuck here with my parents for so long.
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Tayana,
PLEASE PLEASE do not denigrate yourself and put yourself down as "a loser", right in the middle of a very big and significant WIN.
Hurts my heart to hear you do that, hon.
Also, as soon as you can get help and support with the thinking....try try try to stop yearning for what you know your mother is not capable of giving. Try to love reality, even when it's hard.
Reality is your friend. You really can make your peace with it once you have learned to assert your voice and protect your heart.
You are growing stronger and more mature in all ways every day. Your mother is winding down toward her other childhood. The balance is shifting now, and eventually you will become comfortable with being the adult in the equation.
This is the time to claim your adulthood. Your mother's undermining disapproval does not make you a "loser". It was a negative force you couldn't fight before.
And
now
you
CAN
and
you
ARE
Hops
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That was a beautiful post--- Hops.
Tayana, something struck me in your first post. Your mother did not make a big deal about "helping you clean,."She just dropped the whole subject, fast.
What hit me is they will suddenly back off in a way that shocks you. They will just drop the rope on something that they would fight to the death on a moment before.
I think that they have a keen sense of when they are "beaten" on this round. They will give up this round, Then, they will gear themselves up for the next round.
It seems very strange to us. However, I think that this is the thinking behind these strange and abrupt changes Love Ami
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I remember my father and his sister locking themselves in his bathroom when they had some disagreement with their mother, my grandmother. This was years ago.
They were like small children again, without voices, unable to speak to her. To discuss. They just couldn't and my father said to one of my siblings, when asked to come OUT of the bathroom.....
"You don't know her like we do."
I was haunted for years by that statement. I don't know what he meant by it but, I know she/grandma got more and more difficult. She began making larger, more hurtful more irrational chaos within the family. She began directing my Grandpa, the sweetest man you'd ever want to meet, to do her dirty work. She got stronger and he got weaker.
What I want to say is, you're basically defenseless against her, when you're in her space. When she's got your ear. When she's around your son.
You can't defend yourself. How can you defend M?
You can only withdraw, with or without love. She'll only get more hurtful as time goes by.
You have to get stronger and build supports.
::shaking head::
Man oh man of man, what a statement that is. YOu have to build supports to counter the toxic hateful soul murdering energy of the person who's SUPPOSED to protect you, more fervently than anyone else in the world.
That statements so unfair, SO improbable..... it's beyond heartbreaking.
Just so, you have to continue down the path you've started.
Better times are on your horizon.
Seek out people and interests that build you and your son up as a family. You need to limit contact with your mother as necessary.
Personally, I think you're way beyond NC with this vandal. This terrorist. She's not worthy of your trust or your love, IMO.
Time to find older nurturing maternal spirits to nurture you and your son. I wonder if you'll find neighbors that will become part of your life.
I've had such luck finding acceptance and wisdom, love and nurturing from older women in my life. I really like older people and God knows where I'd be without them.
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Wow... Ami.
On the whole "dropping the rope or fighting till the death" thing.
I think you nailed it pretty well there.
N's keep us off balance and they shift their moods, words and deeds without rhyme or reason.
It's what a wrestler does on the matts.
They fake this way then go that way,
quickly.
They get you thinking they're going one way then switch up constantly, to keep you off balance, eventually gaining the upper hand.
That's the GAME.
Interesting that you picked up on that. I think it's true and maybe tayana can defend herself better if she knows what's coming and why... even if she can't figure out why it happened to her.
It's hard for us to GET what they're doing, it's just about impossible to grasp bc we'd neve DO that to them, or our own children. ::shaking head in disgust::
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In thirty minutes my case will be before the judge, and hopefully, the judgement against me will be dismissed. . . then we have to go back to court to get the creditor to leave me alone.
Hops, I'm sorry to put myself down like that, but I can't really help myself. It's sort of how I feel. I should have been getting my first real apartment ten years ago, not now. I feel like I'm ages behind other people my age. And I do still long for that connection that should have been, even though I know I'm not going to get it. So I'm getting there. I know it's not going to happen. I know she's incapable of it. It's a game to her. Everything is a game to her, and there's a part of me that wants to say, "you did this."
Last night, M came and crawled into bed with me to tell me he didn't feel very good about this moving thing anymore. He didn't want to leave his room behind, and he would never see it again. I said you'll see your room again, we'll be out here. He said it wouldn't be the same, and his new room was so small he wouldn't have a place to play. And he didn't know where we were going to put our dog's crate or his toys, and he didn't think his fish tanks would fit in his room. I told him it was okay to have doubts, but I wanted to know what changed his mind because yesterday when we were cleaning he really liked the place, and he was very excited. He told me he was giving me a thumbs down, and I told him that was all right. He could be angry at me all he wanted, but that we would be okay. Then I talked about all of the positive things, and he seemed better. My mother demanded to know what his problem had been this morning, and I just told her he was worried about his room. So she went on to tell me how in two weeks he was going to be ready to move back, and how my father agreed with them. I said, yes, but I think he'll be fine in a few weeks. She doesn't think so.
Does everybody think I'm such a lousy parent? Does no one have any faith at all in me? Does no one have any faith at all in M? Everyone is underestimating him. I figured he'd be crying and balling this whole time, but he's been pretty good about the whole thing, really. Of course, we haven't started packing his room, but earlier yesterday he was ready to pack. I told M, I had doubts too, and right now I wonder if I really made this decision for him or for me. I just think that when he sees me being so much happier, he'll be happier too.
Personally, I think you're way beyond NC with this vandal. This terrorist. She's not worthy of your trust or your love, IMO.
Time to find older nurturing maternal spirits to nurture you and your son. I wonder if you'll find neighbors that will become part of your life.
I've been reading about emotionally leaving home. We'll see how things go once we're moved and settled. If NC is necessary then that's what will have to happen, but right now I'm just trying to emotionally distance myself from her and not let her barbs hurt.
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Tayana,
You arent a lousy mom. You are a good mom. You can't decide what kind of a mom you are based on what your kids are feeling at the moment. Michael is his own person, separate from you, just as you are separate from your mom. He has feelings of loss that he would have no matter what kind of move it is. It's hard to start over somewhere else when you are a kid and he is going to have to adjust. That doesnt make you a bad mom.
Look at his adjustment kinda like a training exercise for life. This is something that you need to do for you (and that's okay by the way), but it is also a chance for him to get used to being flexible and open to change. Every time he makes a change, he learns a little more about the world works. When he is an adult, he will do so much better if he is not fearful of changes in his life. You are giving him what he needs right now--helping him push through the anxiety.
He may become even more anxious as the move progresses. Your steady assurance that this is normal and okay and that you know he can do it will help him make the transition. He will cling to your confidence in him--even if you have to fake it some.
Good luck today, Tayana. I will be thinking of you and hoping things go very well. Let us know how it turns out.
CB
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CB,
Thanks for the reassurance. I keep hoping that as long I seem confident and assure him everything will be fine and focus on the positive things with this move, that he will be fine. It is a big adjustment. I remember the first house I got to live in for more than a year, and I didn't want to leave it either.
My mom also brought up how he hasn't been in a "daycare" situation for years, he's always been with her. She alternately coddles him and then expects him to be adult, so I don't see how that helps him. I think it'll be good for him to be back in public school (even though I'm not a fan of public school, really), and possibly in a situation where he can get some services for his learning differences will help.
If we end up having to see a family counselor we will.
I keep telling him, what he's feeling is okay, but that we will be fine and telling him all the positive things about the move. Namely, making cupcakes and his little garden.
I don't really know what my mom tells him when I'm at work. I've heard some things like, "I have to stay away from teenagers because they'll teach me bad things." So I know she's telling him a lot of stuff that's probably confusing. Per my promise though, I have not asked what she's saying to him, although I do ask how he feels about the move almost daily.
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Tayana:
I think your son is doing great considering children with Aspergers really really likes structure, (don't all children?) but particularly those with Asperbers.
Keep this in mind during the hard times.
About the type of mother you are.
You're a great mom.
You validate his feelings, reassure him, tell him you have it under control and keep his routine as in place as you can.
His struggles with embracing the new apartment and new friends will translate into his ability to handle changes better throughout his life. Those changes are coming, no matter what you do.
You're teaching him to develop coping strategies and an attitude about how things are going to turn out, even when he fears the worst.
That is one thing you must keep your NM from beating into his head.
She wants to rule him/you with fear.
Can you imagine if she wins that one?
In either case?
Teaching M to face life with some optimism, even if things don't go his way, and know that all will still be well, is a true gift.
It's you job to teach him that.
It's you NM's job to beat his confidence down and instill pessimism and fear.
Don't ask why. Just know it's true.
That's why you're still at home and feeling confused about it.
She's OUTRIGHT SABOTAGED YOUR ABILITY TO LEAVE SOONER.
Wow, improbable, but true.
You're going to be OK.
You're a great Mom and M's a great kid.
Truly, your stories about how he handles things amaze me.
Typical kids have just as much trouble with transitions and sometimes he handles the transitions and conversations about them better than any child could. That's bc you rock as a mama.
Don't doubt that.
Even as you question your motives and actions, as good people will do, do not doubt that: )
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Routine is a big thing for him. He didn't get to go to the library this week, and it really upset him. We usually go every Saturday. I told him we might go tonight, just so he gets to go. Although I don't really have time for it with all the packing that still needs to get done, and I also have my T session tonight. I told him we really shouldn't borrow too many things from the library right now, since they'll get lost in the move.
One of the things I'm planning to do is create a family schedule, like on SuperNanny, so that we have set times for everything and he knows what to expect. We're also going to have consistent house rules, not this it's okay one day, and not okay the next.
I'm hoping he learns to like this new place, and after we talked about all the positives last night, he seemed more enthusiastic.
She wants to rule him/you with fear.
Can you imagine if she wins that one?
In either case?
I'm glad I'm doing this now, and not in a few more years when M is a little older, and Grandma has consistently let him get away with things she shouldn't, and then instilled in him this sense of he can never do anything right.
I remember when I was about 13, and I had to take Home Ec. One of our projects was to sew a shirt. Well, I knew nothing about sewing, and I did my best with the shirt, but my sleeves were uneven and I'd sewed the shirt crooked. My mother ridiculed my efforts, ripping out what I'd done and sewed it herself. It always felt like such a cheat when my shirt was selected to hang in a special display, and I'd not done anything with it. I never wore it. I also never tried to sew again. To this day, my mother routinely brings up my failings with my one attempt at sewing if I even mention the subject. I would like to learn to sew now, but I've never said a thing to my mother, because she would only throw my failure in my face.
I think part of growing is learning and trying new things, even if we don't like them. I don't believe in trying something once and quitting, but at least giving it a fair shot before putting it aside. I taught myself to knit out of sheer determination, even though my mother told me I couldn't do it.
M wants to try things, and he consistently hears, you wouldn't like it. You'll only get hurt. I want him to be able to try new things, because I never got to.
Typical kids have just as much trouble with transitions and sometimes he handles the transitions and conversations about them better than any child could. That's bc you rock as a mama.
I don't know how much he really listens, and how much he just tunes me out. He does that alot, just tunes me out. It seems like we've been having the "I don't want to move" discussion at least once a week since we started talking about it. I guess last night was my lucky night.
Thanks for the confidence, Lighter, I really needed that. I hope I do rock as a mama. I'm going to need every ounce of mama strength I can get in the next few weeks I think.
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You're a great mama, tayana.
Love the household schedule and love that you're keeping the positives in the conversation and adressing his fears, and yours.
You are a great mama, ((((tayana))))) keep it up and keep moving.
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Dear Tayana, I wanted to say that we, as parents , make decisions that we think are best, whether or not the child "likes" it. Our job is to be the decision maker. I know that I have made many decisions that my children hated and ranted and raved about .Most were good for them and later they appreciated it. However, at the time, their ranting and raving was "immaterial: to what I, as the "boss" thought was best. IOW, don't pay that much attention to your son's 'ups and downs"
You have to get away from her in order to survive, he does,too Love Ami
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Lighter and Ami, I've pretty much told him that sometimes I have to make decisions he doesn't like, but that we would be be fine.
My T gave me an assignment tonight. I'm supposed to make two lists one about all of the things that are good about me and one about all the negative things. I'm dreading it. He basically told me tonight that my mother is crazy and trying to make me crazy too. He told me she didn't have the capacity to give me her blessing or approval, and I just had to let that go. He told me that I'd made really thick walls. and they weren't thick enough. He said that I needed to do this exercise and this move so that I would be open to new friendships and relationships. It seems like a daunting task, and I'm dreading it.
On the upside, my dishwasher got fixed today.
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Hi Tayana:
Been following along when I get a chance to read and I want to say: Congratulations! On confronting your mom and sticking with your plan and staying cool! 8) You're doing a great job, including with your son! I have a feeling you're both going to be just fine, as you have told him!
When you make your lists, maybe it would help to do the positive one first? Then, when you do the negative one...stop after every negative thought and ask yourself: "Is this really true?" and if it is, "Is it something I can work on to change?". We all have negative stuff we don't like about ourselves and it's not easy to take account like that. At least if we think about the possibility of some change, it's something to look forward to. And that's where you're going.......forward!! Hooray!!
Re sewing. That was mean, what she said and did!! I bet you can do what you set your mind to! I think of sewing as a skill people can learn.....like cooking. Anyone can follow a recipe and come out with a good dish, as long as we don't start off trying something too involved and tricky eh? And with practice...some get to be really fine cooks! Sewing is very similar, imo.
How about quilting? Maybe you can look at some books when you take your son to the library? Quilting can be done by hand with any fabric kicking around (so you don't need to invest a lot in it and can easily self-teach). My first quilt was made from 7 of my favorite shirts from teenagehood. I cut them into squares and made a lap quilt. It was very simple but it was somehow a comfort to throw over on a cold winter night. I still have it. Maybe you'll decide to try your hand at some handy work? Why not? I think pot holders are a great way to start, since the end product won't take too long and is always useful. Banish all thoughts of failure! (implanted in bygone days!). You can do what you decide to do!!
Sela
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Dear Tayana,
How did it feel when the T said that your mother was "crazy".? How exactly did he say it? I went to shrinks since I was a kid. They never told me anything directly. I got really sick b/c no one would say,'Your mother is crazy. You are not imaging it.
They always "coded" words, so at the end you had no idea what they were really saying". That is why I like Vaknin. It is up front and direct like taking a nasty, disgusting medicine. Well, an NPD mother is nasty , disgusting and horrible.
Anyway, when the T said that you need to find friendships etc-- Did that seems daunting?Do you really doubt yourself, as I do, b/c of all the N craziness in your head? They gave us such horrible self doubt and insecurity. Love Ami
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Ami, his exact words after I'd made a long disparaging remark about myself, I think I was expressing frustration that she wasn't being normal about all this was, "Your mother is the crazy one, and she's trying to make you crazy too." He's very direct and blunt. I like that. Actually, he doesn't say much, mostly I talk, and he asks questions about what I say. Finding new friendships/relationships scares me to death. I'm not good at it, and like I told my T, I have no confidence at all in that arena. I told him that I didn't think there was much at all about myself that was lovable, and I didn't know why anyone would want me. So, I got the list assignment.
Sela, I would love to learn quilting. I always thought that would be fun. I think the craft store has classes, but I'll have to check into the cost. I did teach myself to knit, so maybe I can teach myself to sew too. It was very mean, what she did. She still has the shirt somewhere, and anytime I've mentioned sewing or quilting she brings up that disaster.
As for the lists, it's the positive side I have problems with. In my session last night, I could only come up with two items for my positive side, and about ten for the negative side. That's bad isn't it? I was told I needed to add some more things about the good stuff I do at work and being a good mom and maybe some physical characteristics. I cringed at that last one. I like my appearance even less than I like anything else about myself.
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Dear Tayana,
I ask about the friendship thing b/c I think that this wil be the next area that will come up in my healing. I think that trusting other people is all about "knowing yourself" I am just in the begging stage of this ,though
Did it affirm you when the T said that your M was the crazy one--- not you?. Did it penetrate to your core or were there so many layers of her" blaming" you that it will take a lot of time to process the 'Ts statement and put it in your heart? Love Ami
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Ami,
I wasn't expecting such a blunt statement from him really. I just sat there for a long time and couldn't say anything, and all I could think was, "you mean, it's not just me?" I'd told him I grew up thinking there was something terribly wrong with me, and I could never figure out what that was. I didn't feel like I fit with my family. The only person who seemed to understand was my brother and we haven't been close since I was about 13. That might change now. It was a very validating moment to have someone say, "you aren't the crazy one." For years, my mother has told me I need to stop living in my fantasy world because none of my dreams were going to happen.
I had told my T I thought I was really messed up, and he told me that I wasn't messed up, that my mother had worked on messing me up. It was just really nice to have someone say, "it's not you. You'll be fine."
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There is no win with N mom. They never accept the truth. Never. We need to stop fighting and accept reality. We cant change them. Just accept them and minimize the damage.
It is so important that you are becoming independent!!!
We are so proud of you!!!!!
Cant wait till I hear you saying you are in your new place. Cant wait to read about your experiences in your own place.
God bless you.
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Hi Tay,
It's not you. You're not the crazy one. You're going to be better than fine.
(You're cute, too.)
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Tayana)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hops
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I'm cute? Now, no one has ever said that to me. :)
Thanks Hops. I told my brother it's really bad that we've both been in therapy and neither one of us are the crazy ones.
I talked to him last night, and this morning I was told he was in a bad mood yesterday. He seemed fine when I talked to him though.
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It gets better and better and better.
I received a letter from my attorney today. The creditor in my lawsuit has contested our motion, claiming I did have knowledge of the case. Reading through the court documents I was sent, apparently my mother inpersonated me both in person and on the phone. In the one recorded conversation, I wasn't even in my office at work. Our building's basement had flooded and we'd been relocated to a temporary location during reconstruction. I couldn't have talked to them. All postal correspondence had been intercepted. She even signed my name on an affidavit with the attorney she hired! I never saw it either.
I really think I hate that woman. I'm going to have to go to an evidenciary hearing now so a judge can determine if I should have known about the court case.
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tayana:
I hope your attorney CARES and believes you. This whole thing is improbable and so..... people will tend to dismiss such things, out of hand, if you don't have an advocate that does SOMETHING out of the ordinary.
He should be behind you, believe in you and have some fire with regard to making sure the Judge understands that this in nt an ordinary case of a dead beat daughter passing the buck, yet again, to the poor parents who have been shouldering their adult child's financial burdens.
Do you have verification that it's NOT YOUR SIGNATURE on those papers? What do you have to do in order to FIND THAT?
Do you have affidavits concerning your whereabouts when your office was flooded so you couldn't POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN AT THE OFFICE TO RECEIVE A CALL?
Do you have your i's dotted? T's crossed?
Short succint affidavits starting out with "I am Ron Jones. I am tayana's boss. I am over the age of 18 years and come this day to swear Ms. Tayana could not have taken any phone calls at our ____ office on the 13th of November.
Our office was flooded and closed that day.
RON JONES 6/14/07
_________________________ __________________________
Signature Notaries signature and date
If you have examples of your signature to view next to the fake signatures of your mother, then spend the time to choose the most obviouse examples that make your point. Choose 5 or 10. Get a statement from an expert in handwriting that breaks down the differences, if you can and have time.
Your attorney won't do this for you. YOU WILL STILL BE RUNNING YOUR OWN CASE! Make the most of it and see if you can't get that maniacle b*tch on tape talking about what she's done. RADIO SHACK. about 35.00 to 75.00 stick it in your bra and point it at her while you ask her why she took credit cards out in your name. Tell her you may forgive her and NOT MOVE OUT IF she can apologize and promise to never do it again. That sort of thing.
I wish you well and keep moving forward, dear.
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Lighter,
The attorney has mentioned getting a handwriting analyst. As soon as I talk to him, and find out what he will or won't do for me, I will be gathering affidavits or whatever I need.
No chance of getting her to admit what she's done. She flat denied it the last time I confronted her. She refused to admit she had taken out the card. She told me she had a different card and it had been sold several times. She forged my signature evidently using my signature, so it looks pretty authentic.
I wouldn't even jest that I won't move. I was so mad, I vacuumed my apt at lunch. I attacked that carpet like it was something evil.
I'm going to get out. I'm going to get settled, and I'm going to find a job a long way from this insanity and move closer to my friend, who's better family, than my family.
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Here's a list to give you a jump start, Tayana, for your "positive list":
1) Tayana listens to her son--what he says and what he's afraid to say.
2) Tayana corrects her son in a way that affirms who he is and only corrects what he does.
3) Tayana has been faithful to create a savings account that will fund her long-term goals. She has given up spending that money on things that she needed or wanted, in order to save for her future, and her son's future.
4) Tayana has tried, to the best of her ability, to live with her parents in peace. She did this even when they were being difficult and abusive.
5) Tayana has stood up for what is right in protecting her credit that was damaged by her mother's illegal activity. She has put considerable time, energy and expense into making this right.
Well, I could write more, but my lunch hour is almost over! How's that for a jumpstart?
CB
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Thanks CB. Sounds good.
I haven't even started this list yet.
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The woman is insane. I'm trying to establish a routine for my son, so now she wants me to have him come spend the week with her while his dog and I stay in our apt. She said he was fine with the idea. Well, when I talked to him he didn't seem fine with the idea at all.
This goes counter to him having a routine. I don't like this. It's too much like she's going to try to take custody of my child.
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If there is a way for them to "throw a monkey wrench" in to your plans----- They will . Love Ami
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I do not intend to do this. I think it is bad for M, number 1. And it gives her too much control. It's her saying I can't be trusted to find suitable childcare for M. I already told my dad I'm ready to cut off contact with her if I have to. He told me I'd regret it, but I don't think I will. I think it would be wonderful.
She also expects me to come out here on the 4th. I didn't want to do that either. I swear she's like a puddle of quicksand just sucking everyone down.
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[My Tayana fantasy, roaring edited out... xxoo to you, Tayana--Hops]
No.
I do not want you to make plans with or for M without discussing it with me first.
Do not change M's schedule or plan visits with him until you have asked me.
M and I are staying in our new apartment together. We need time to settle in.
I am his mother and I am in charge. Perhaps I haven't been before but things are different now.
Good night, I do not have time to talk right now. Click.
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List continued:
Tayana does not let fear rule. She proceeds past it. She is brave and determined.
Tayana is quite capable. She can organize a move, continue to work, care for her son and his feelings, even think and make plans and dream....all while dealing with a lunatic con-artist mother.
Tayana can make friends. She already has a really nice one who is more like family and she will make many more in future.
Tayana is goal oriented and will easily learn to quilt, since she is already a self-taught knitter (teaching self to knit is much harder than to quilt...I suspect!).
Tayana remains calm even in the face of insanity, manipulation, arm twisting, scare tactics and all N tricks imaginable. And if she does decide to express her anger, she is very clear and focussed about it. Her head is on straight, all wires are connected and all screws are tight, unlike her supposed parents.
I wouldn't blame you, Tayana, not to leave your son unattended for 5 minutes with your disturbed, self-centred and crooked mother and spineless father...again.....once you get out and away from that insanity.
Sela
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PS: I doubt you'll be sorry at all. That's just another.....tactic.
Sela
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Tayana - Don't let her rain on your parade. Once you're out and looking back you'll be able to laugh and feel pity. Remember you don't have to like her or be around her. You're a strong person. Good luck with everything. It is going to be so exciting to decorate and have a place to call your own. Take care, RESA
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lighter:
"You don't know her like we do."
I was haunted for years by that statement. I don't know what he meant by it but,
>>>>>>I used to tell X that. I used to say "well X, the reason you have so many people following you, is because THEY DO NOT KNOW YOU LIKE I DO. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN BEHIND CLOSED DOORS NOR HAVE THEY BEEN WITH YOU ANYWHERE BUT ONLINE. THEY HAVE NOT SEEN THE "REAL X!" The thing I didn't realize, was, once X did meet someone who was almost exactly like her, what she "wanted" maybe she WOULD have someone that she didn't push away, cause, as far as I know, the new person is still with her.
Now, lighter...saying "I don't know what he meant by it" raises two points to me:
First, maybe you really do NOT know what they meant, but secondly, maybe you really DO know and you are DOUBTING YOUR OWN INTUITION.
Many times, this lady I am mentoring, will say "Well, it's just that they were being mean cause of what happened with such n such" and in the very next breath she will say "I dunno..." and trail off. At that moment, I will stop her in her tracks and say "YES YOU DOOOOOOO KNOW! YOU JUST TOLD ME! STOP SECOND-GUESSING YOURSELF! YOU DO KNOW WHY THEY DID IT. THEY DID IT, AS YOU SAID, BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH _______"
lighter, I'm not sure which is the case for you...as to, whether you DO know what he meant by it, or if you are just saying you don't know to DISCREDIT YOU OWN PERCEPTIONS. Only you can answer that if you want to, but please, if you are discrediting or doubting yourself, don't do it...it's a chink in the armor that N will use against you very EASILY.
~RM
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Well, it's going to be a wonderful day. Last night M came and got in bed with me. He was upset about going to school. He told me he didn't want to go to school. So we talked about school, about how this was a different school, with different teachers, etc. He kept asking a lot of what if questions. What if the kids don't like me? So I would say well what if they do? I finally got him to agree to a deal. We'd talk about school after he'd attended for four weeks. I explained that he might get to go to some of those special classes like he used to go to, and that he would probably have to take some tests. He wasn't super okay with it, and he was still mad at me but he felt a little better. M wants to be homeschooled, and he specifically wants me to homeschool.
So this morning when I came downstairs, my mother was lying in wait for me. I knew she would be because she heard us talking. She demanded to know if I'd jumped him about him staying out there. I said no, I hadn't jumped him. I said I'd asked if he wanted that, and he wasn't sure. Then I'd let the matter drop. I said nothing about talking to him about school. I'd already decided if she asked about that I was going to tell her we were talking about bugs, which we did for a little while.
She told me that my father said this whole thing was like a divorce, and that he was really upset. She started crying and said I was going to push M into having a nervous breakdown. She said that I was going to keep pushing until he hated my guts. She said that I needed to let him ease into this whole thing because he wasn't going to want to stay out there with her. She said he was going to get where he didn't want to be out there period. She told me he comes downstairs every morning crying because he doesn't want to leave. She told me she tells him things to build him back up, and that she always knows when his music is loud that I'm jumping him. His music was loud because he'd been listening to a different CD earlier, and had forgotten to turn it back down. I told her that.
I don't know how much of any of that to believe. I can't trust her. I can't trust my father. I don't know who to trust, except me.
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The woman is insane. I'm trying to establish a routine for my son, so now she wants me to have him come spend the week with her while his dog and I stay in our apt. She said he was fine with the idea. Well, when I talked to him he didn't seem fine with the idea at all.
This goes counter to him having a routine. I don't like this. It's too much like she's going to try to take custody of my child.
Ummmm.... you shouldn't even be considering her selfish plan to destruct your son's routine.
In fact, why are you allowing her insanity to bother you at all?
Oh ya, bc N's are agressive and dogged in their determination to get their way and force us to feel guilt in the most unlikely circumstances.
Don't let her get the best of you.
She's winning when she's taking up your energy and causing you grief.
Keep thinking about how to get M into happy routine and how nice you'll feel in your own safe space.
Block her efforts to sidetrack you, where you can.
I know how hard it is to ignore an N's relentless pressure and determination to have their way. It's really daunting.
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I had a long talk with my sister in law this morning. I never really liked my sister in law, but she's starting to grow on me, mostly because she's normal. We talked about things my mom had said to us, and all the lies she had told my SIL, and me. She's evidently told M he can't come out unless his grandpa invites him out. I felt better after talking to her.
I asked M tonight if he came downstairs crying in the mornings, and he said, "Of course not. Ten year olds don't cry."
It's just another example of her spinning these fantastic lies. Evidently she's made up this whole fantasy and is trying to pawn it off as the truth. All of this stuff M has supposedly said or done is suspect.
Typical N stuff.
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tayana...
congratulations [really, I mean it] on escaping... or at least beginning the process of escaping.
congratulations on discovering your SIL
congratulations on discovering what a frenzied, spinning liar your mother is... it sucks but it's always better to know for sure, in a case like this...
congratulations on being able to ask M questions that will give him some internal reality checks of his own, when he thinks back on them later [10 is not too young for that].
congratulations.
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Thanks Stormy. I'm sure Saturday, when I'm at my new place, I'm going to feel really relieved. Right now I'm a bit panicked still. I have so much stuff to pack yet.
There's so much stuff I'm going to have to get rid of.
My mother has asked for all sorts of things back after she gave them to me. I have a handblown vase she "gave" me. I'm not even going to pack it. I'm just going to give it back to her. She wants back the books I had for my geneaology research. She wants jewelry back, etc. It's stupid and petty, and I"m tired of it. Friday night I'm going to give it all back to her. I'm going to wait until then though. There's no point in delighting her too much.
She made a comment tonight while giving my dog scraps off the table, "You better enjoy this because I have a feeling there won't be much cooking after this week." She doesn't cook that often, really. I love to cook. I've already thought of things I want to make, and since it's my kitchen I can get things as messy as I want.
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tayana....
first I want to say I look forward to sharing recipes with you. I'll enjoy picturing you and M in the kitchen together, cooking and chatting about the new school and what your making for dinner.
Secondly, I gotta tell ya..... that father of yours. ::tapping foot::
I'm guessing he's experiencing terrible anxiety over the havoc NM will be raining down on his head after you're no longer there to accept the blows.
Pity he's such a gutless enabler. He could defend himself. He could have defended himself had that been the case. It's not. Dismiss his silly predictions, he's trying to help your mother keep control over you.
How dare he? BC he can't do any better, or he would.
You'll be so much happier and healthier if you withdraw with love...... find better things for M and yourself. I know you will.
YOU know you will.
Lastly, this whole thing really IS like a divorce. Complete with the jilted party demanding their gifts back and so the hell what? Give them back and good riddance! More room for M & M's!
chin up. Almost there: )
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Aw Tay,
She is really being a mean little girl. She is acting the age of a 5 year old right now. Picture her in big grown up clothes that is down around her ankles, shirt sleeves hitting the floor and this little tiny voice, Oh yeah, well now I'm mad that you said No and I'm not getting my way!!! I want my presents back!! I am even going to tell the dog on you! (dog) you better eat now cause your mom don't cook.
I'm sure this would of had a great impact on your decision, what the dog thinks? Yuh'huh
She is having a tantrum.
Almost Home Tay!!! with your 10 year old son not your five year old mother.
Deb
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aren't most N's that way? children in adult bodies who use "poor me" and "dang you" alternately?
In my case, X would go from "nobody would ever tell me what was wrong with me, but they all called me snobbish...and then, after I'd tell her what was wrong with her, she'd launch into the "I am NOT that way" to "I can't BELIEVE you see me that way!" to "HOW DO YOU WANT ME TO BE?" to "OK, WELL, SINCE YOU SEE ME THAT WAY THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOU TO BE WITH ME, RIGHT?" to "I AM GOING TO MOVE ON NOW AND YOU CAN'T COME WITH ME! HUMPH!"
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Deb, I was thinking she was acting more like a two year old really, complete with a total lack of remorse for her actions. I'm going to give the two books about geneaology back, but I'm keeping all of my notes and things I'd found. I'd planned on putting it all together last Christmas for my dad, but I never got to it. It always seemed like something got in the way. Now, maybe I'll have time for that. I don't really need the other two books. I've been able to do a lot of my research through libraries and the internet.
Lighter, I'd be glad to share recipies with you! I try not to be angry with my dad, but I am. He does the best he can, and I think he feels sorry for my mom. I don't think she could survive on her own. It is like a divorce, even though I've never been through a divorce. I'm divorcing my mother. Eeek! That sounds nasty.
CB, she can have her stuff back. I don't want it. She disinherited me too, wrote me out of her will. The things I was supposed to inherit she told my dad to sell. I don't want her diamonds. If I want diamonds I'll get them myself. The less of her stuff I have she can hold over me, the better.
Laura, that's exactly what they do. She wants me to feel sorry for her, and I don't. When I was at school my mom used to say I thought I was better than everyone else because I had an education now. The truth was, I didn't think that at all. It was just incredibly stressful for my parents to be in my apartment at school. I thought it was awkward, and we didn't have things to talk about.
The dog comment was priceless. The dog doesn't care what he eats.
I've decided M and I are going on a little vacation, something inexpensive, later this year. I'll save the money for it. Even if we have to board our dog for two days. My mother would never approve, and I'm going to do it anyway.
She told me this morning that she doesn't want M going to school looking like a ragamuffin. She said she's always made sure to keep his clothes clean and pressed and creased. As if I'm going to send my kid to school looking awful. Honestly. Her opinion of me is so low, that I can barely stand to be in the room with her.
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fayana:
Glad you're going on a little vacation. Sounds like just what the doctor ordered for you and M.
As for your father. You have a right to be angry. He's concerned about your mother AND what his life will be like if you leave..... and she's really really ticked off.
He wants to protect her/NM? WHAT ABOUT YOU?!?!?
I know he's broken too... and unable to do better, for himself and for you and M.
It ticks me off that he still has energy to promote your mother's selfish interests, that's all.
Glad your giving up the stuff she wants back. It would only make you feel bad when you looked at it.
Keep moving forward. YOU ROCK!
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Lighter, the attitude in my house has long been what my mom is the most important thing. No one can do anything against her wishes or she makes their life miserable. My dad has been the butt of many jokes because he puts up with that.
I don't want her stuff. It'd just make me sick to look at it.
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Dear Tayana,
I thought that the most wonderful person in the world was my F. Next to my M, he was pretty damn good. However, I have come to face that protecting her ( and her sickness) comes first. If I die in the process--- so be it.
I sometimes am more angry at him. He seems pretty normal. It seems that if he could have been strong ,that she could not have hurt people.
I can't really figure out what the deal is with him. Is he really sick,too or just doesn't care enough ? Anyway, it is a betrayal from our fathers--- that is the story. They betrayed us ,too. Love Ami
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Yes, oh yes.
Ami, Tayana, I felt for so many years that my father's betrayal was in so many ways worse. He could reason, he could see, and he closed his eyes, his ears, his mind.
I loved him but could not understand why I could never reach him, why he just refused to hear me, when everything he taught me proved that he could see perfectly well how a decent person behaved.
I share this pain with you, and I wish I had a cure. The only cure I know is time. My father, ultimately, gave his life to protect me. When I went to college and grad school, and then again at the last, during the final years of his life, he did interpose himself between me and my mother to shield me from the worst of her greed and scheming. It wore him out, it killed him.
I don't know. I wish he'd taken a stand decades before, I think his life, and my life and my Nsib's life might all have been so different. Heaven knows what your lives would be like now, if your own fathers had ever taken a stand.
But it's dangerous to stand up to an N. They are punitive and vindictive, and none of our fathers was really very brave.
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Ami, Stormy . . . I used to think my father was amazing, back before I realized what really went on in this house. I used to think I could trust him.
This experience though has changed my mind. I've seen him in a new light, and I realize that he hasn't helped me at all.
His advice with my mom has always been to take what she says with a grain of salt. How do you take some of the stuff she says with a grain of salt? You can't. I've never been able to.
I was thinking on the way home, that she doesn't really care about me. Since I've started this whole moving thing, she's not said one truly sincere word to me. The only thing she says are hateful, hurtful things about my ability to be a parent or my ability to be on my own. Nothing has reflected true concern or affection for me. My father has said nothing to stop her hateful comments.
My brother and I were talking yesterday, and he said that my mom thinks M is hers. That's so true. she thinks he's her child, not mine, and she will not drop this thing of him staying out here for three days after we move. She hasn't asked. She's decided that's what's going to happen. I wasn't given any sort of decision or choice in the matter. I'm not going to think about that until after Saturday though. I've already vetoed taking a piece of furniture on the grounds I'm not sure it will fit in M's new room.
She keeps saying M will be upset if he can't take his knick knack type things, but he's more concerned that he's not going to have enough space to play.
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[
His advice with my mom has always been to take what she says with a grain of salt. How do you take some of the stuff she says with a grain of salt?
Excuse me but this ( above ) cracks me up. My Father has told me to take the MOST outrageous things with a 'grain of salt"
I never knew that there were other people out there living this type of life.too.
Storm ,my father made it clear to me that he would never go against her or stand up.
Love Ami
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Is this the standard advice for dealing with N's? Take them with a grain of salt?
I have a hard time taking someone stealing my credit and ruining it with a grain of salt.
My father will never stand up to my mom. He just takes it like a beaten old dog, even though he agrees with everything I've said about her.
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When does the assertiveness training start, T?
And what about a counselor?
I think you're absolutely right that your mother feels entitled to treat M as her child.
That's an enormous threat and good for you for seeing it.
I know you will be able to find help to build the power inside yourself to shove her aside.
She won't back off so you have to TELL her (like a tiger) to back off, imo.
Be very watchful about saying things to yourself like "I had no part in the decision"...
You're taking a very important and empowering step in moving out!!
hugs
Hops
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But it's dangerous to stand up to an N. They are punitive and vindictive, and none of our fathers was really very brave.
::shiver::: No turningbacknow
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oh, that grain of salt thing.
you know what that is? That's what's called a 'sop'. It's a useless gesture that enablers make to appease someone they have no intention of helping.
there's a whole spectrum of these responses, ranging from 'oh just ignore them' to 'you know they don't really mean that' to 'take it with a grain of salt' to 'consider the source' to 'well, you're the one taking things so negatively' to 'if you didn't talk back this wouldn't happen' ....
all of it intended to absolve the N abuser of their responsibility, and put all the responsibility on us.
it's a brush-off.
for seeing clearly.
for understanding.
for expecting some support from the people who in theory are supposed to protect us.
One thing about Ns. They always. Force. Everyone. To. Take. Sides.
there's no such thing as parallel existence with them, because they regard your merely breathing in the same place as an intolerable intrusion on their supremacy, unless you are breathing while grovelling to them.
Anyone who picks an N as a partner and stays with them will find that - they're expected to assist the N in abusing anyone else that they might otherwise care about. Because Ns cannot share, and they demand absolute devotion. Caring about anyone else, even one's own child, even if that child was conceived with the N, is intolerable disloyalty, where the N is concerned.
So the Ns enlisted our fathers to betray us. And our fathers went along with it, because they were forced to choose, and they picked the abuser. [This is not limited to fathers, of course. Enabler mothers favor their N husbands over their own children just as often with equally disastrous results, often alienating one or more of the kids for life.]
Of course, Ns being Ns and enablers being enablers, when you see this, and point it out, it is YOU who will be accused of polarizing things and trying to make people take sides.
That's typical defensive projection. See it for what it is, and persist in seeing clearly.
Lighter: ((((((((((lighter)))))))))) I wish that typed parentheses on a screen offered some actual spiritual and physical protection....
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WOW Storm
I always talk about age 14 as the time when I "lost" myself. What happened wa that I trusted my F to tell me the truth. I believed his lies about reality. I went in to a nightmare existence for the sole reason that he lied to me about what my own eyes and ears were percieving. I believed him over myself. I turned on myself from that point on. I am just coming out of it, now.That is why I am so focused on getting my trust in myself, back.
His weakness destroyed my life more than my N mother. If he could have told me the truth, I could have continued trusting,loving and owning myself.
My F is the "Mr Nice Guy", the "Mister Wonderful.One thing is for SURE. he is reaping what he sowed. He is getting ALL the N abuse b/c he is the only one there.
Whenever, she has any problem ,it all rains on him.My aunt said that it is disgusting to see. My Aunt is in total denial about my mother(her sister). However, the abuse of my F is awful( she admits).
Well, he would not protect us,now he is the abused child Love Ami
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Dear Storm and friends,
It is amazing to me that every time I need to feel understood, or that I begin to doubt my own perceptions and feelings, I can come on this board and everything feels clear and stable again. It's incredible, how identical our experiences have been.
Yesterday I was really grieving the loss of my enabler father, because he was the only gentle presence in my life, and yet he let my crazy N mother terrorize me and my brother . . . and he was ALWAYS offering sops. And now he's angry with me for not wanting to stay in the "cage" with him.
He tried at first to be a fence-sitter, when I first stood up to Mom last January . . . but she is making everyone pick sides, and her side appears a lot stronger and more convincing than mine, because of all her lies and grandiosity.
So I'm basically left with my husband, my two precious children, and myself . . . and that is wonderful.
I'm going to keep going through this process of letting go . . . although I don't think I can ever get my father completely out of my heart. I believe he loves me in some limited fashion. It's very hard, though, to accept that someone can love you and yet be so weak that he is willing to betray and hurt you, for the sake of maintaining his own relationship with an N.
Hugs to you all!
<<Anyone who picks an N as a partner and stays with them will find that - they're expected to assist the N in abusing anyone else that they might otherwise care about. Because Ns cannot share, and they demand absolute devotion. Caring about anyone else, even one's own child, even if that child was conceived with the N, is intolerable disloyalty, where the N is concerned.
So the Ns enlisted our fathers to betray us. And our fathers went along with it, because they were forced to choose, and they picked the abuser. [This is not limited to fathers, of course. Enabler mothers favor their N husbands over their own children just as often with equally disastrous results, often alienating one or more of the kids for life.]
Of course, Ns being Ns and enablers being enablers, when you see this, and point it out, it is YOU who will be accused of polarizing things and trying to make people take sides.>>
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Dear Ami,
My father is the only one living with NMom, although my brother still works for them . . . I think Dad is being terribly abused by her, but he's gotten so used to it, he doesn't even realize it's abuse! Her constantly shifting reality, and all her moods and tempers, has made him so confused for so long, I could swear it's caused brain damage or rewired his thought process or something.
Our parents sound so similar . . . I am so glad you're working your way out of this, and I find such comfort in reading your posts, because I know I'm not the only one facing these EXACT issues.
HUGS
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Hops, my assertive communication class is in September. Not soon enough, really. I told her last night that I'm not sure one of the pieces of furniture would fit in M's new room, especially the way he wants it arranged, and that I'd like to just take the basic things, and then if there's room, we can take some other stuff. She wasn't happy, again telling me that M needed a place to sit things. The child doesn't need a shelf full of stuff. He just wants a place to play.
This morning she tells me everyone is dreading moving. I have not heard a single negative word from anyone, but her. I don't believe her. I don't like moving either, but I'm not dreading it.
Stormy, I used to get so mad over the "Grain of salt" thing. Now, I just don't say anything. There's not point. I have heard so many of these "sops." She doesn't mean it. She's just mad. She's stressed. Just ignore it. My favorite was when I was about 13 and my mother slapped me and screamed at me over something stupid, and my father said, "She's going through a rough time right now." He didn't say anything to her.
Now, my mom and I are having a discussion over lamps. No, Mom, I don't want that ugly lamp. Well, M needs some light. I'll buy him a new lamp. These new lamps don't have enough light. Arrgh!
Now, she's decided that she wants to come down and help me sort books. I'm thinking No, I can do that on my own. I'll be sure the books are the first thing we unpack. M's upset because he doesn't have anything to read. Then she has no reason to come down and sort anything. I don't want her there. It's MY PLACE, not hers. And as soon as I find some lamps and tables I like, I'm taking her ugly lamp tables back too.
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Dear New Me,
Thank you. One of the few good things that come about as a result of being abused is that you can help others who have been there. I appreciate so much your kind words. Love Ami
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One of the few good things that come about as a result of being abused is that you can help others who have been there. I appreciate so much your kind words.
Ami, this really stuck with me. From the time I was a teenager, I wanted to do two things. I wanted to be a writer and I wanted to help other people. I've succeeded with the first, and I think I'm going to work on the second. Somehow that second one got crushed. I think your comment is so true. I think people like us have so much more capacity to care than others.