Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: WRITE on June 25, 2007, 01:05:39 AM
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crusade I mean.
Our new pastor at church has so far:
begun men-only prayer sessions before services;
preached that people who don't believe in the risen Jesus as their Saviour are lost;
told us to admonish each other in church: 'you will be held accountable' and today 'you need to pay attention'!
and to lay hands of prayer on each other.
I am really uncomfortable with it all, it smacks of cult to me, and exclusivity and sexism.
I started to write to him to tell him how I feel then stopped myself.
Why do I always feel i ahve to take everything on like this?
I just spent months at that church working to get things back on track for the music ministry.
I was supposed to be taking a break from there, not delving into the fray some more.
I should just back off and find a more compatible place to be right?
This once if i just leave something and get on with my own happiness will the world fall apart......?
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a thought (?) perhaps distraction -- as long as we're busy with everyone (and thing else) we don't have to look at ourselves.
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Dear Write
You are not responsible for this situation or for this minister. Hand it over to a higher power and see what happens. It sounds like you are a force for balance and gentility in your church. In the end that is always the best way.
I agree with you in saying your piece in a way that is assertive. You need to do that for you. But the likelihood of actually changing the whole scene? Doubtful.
Good that you come here and work it out.
what is laying on of hands. That sounds very old school. is it an unfortunate way of saying pat your brothers and sisters on the back? Or what?
Thanks for bringing this up.
Sea storm
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Write,
Your response it very similar to the way I tend to handle things. I have been told I have a 'fairness button' that gets pushed very easily, and that anything I see that isn't right, or just, or equal, I feel *I* have to do something about it. Is that a bad thing? Sometimes. As guest 101 said, it might just be a distraction to avoid looking inwards, but it might also be that if (like me) you suffered a lot of *injustice* in your childhood, you are more aware of it when you see instances of it now.
What you are describing in your church *does* sound sexist and a bit cultish. I think I would still write the letter, to give myself peace of mind that I'd at least *tried*, but I wouldn't hold out much hope of anything changing. Can you write to him, and also send a copy at the same time to someone senior to him, so that it doesn't become a 'secretive' kind of grumble? Have you mentioned your concerns to anyone else in the congregation, or is the feeling that you have to put your feelings in writing your very first thought?
Janet
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Hi Write,
I don't think you owe them 5 minutes. I think toxic things are going on there, unfortunately.
Have you tried Unity, or Sojourners?
Or the Society of FRiends?
love
Hops
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It all depends on what kind of church it is. I know many churchs have prayer ministries and you can go to someone who will put their hands on your shoulders and pray for you. The men only prayer group? As long as there is an opportunity for the women to have their own groups then it seems alright to me-like our town has a big mens ministry-kinda like Promise Keepers. But if you do not believe as they do, then you probably need to find a church where they believe like you do.
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Wow Write:
You just ticked off some very good reasons why I've never felt good about attending orgaized religious services.
I'm with ya on the whistle blowing urge though.
I'm also sorry you put all that energy into the music program, and stand to see it all go for naught, if you leave.
I also would understand if you just picked up and started visiting other churches.... found one that you felt good in.
Again.
On the whole, if you really feel that the church is being harmed by this new man.... it's almost impossible to DO NOTHING, at least from where I'm standing.
I just don't think it will work out well for you. And I don't want to see you get hurt.
Again. I see the theme of this whole scenario as being IMPROBABLE and UNFAIR.
What the hell? Are people sheep? Can't they see when someone is harming their beloved institution? Can't they stand up for themselves?
I want you to accomplish something, if you do anything at all. Not just ostracize yourself and make others, who wanted to be brave and were on the cusp, be more fearful and never risk for their principles. Especially the women and young girls. KWIM?
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Write,
I would find a new place of worship, one that is more in line with my beliefs. I tend to avoid confrontation though.
You could always go to the next higher power above your pastor and complain though, or just ask him what the deal is. It is unfair, and I wouldn't care for his attitude at all.
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WRITE,
Why do I do it? I mean crusade. Well, dear one, I think we all do it to a degree. But when we do it to the point where it is OBVIOUS even to ourselves, then it's troublesome. I know exactly how you feel. Accepting that I was a 'fixer' (shock absorber in the car type) often in crusade mode was a hurdle in itself. Wanting now to change that about me is an even bigger crusade/hurdle.
About the situation you're in, (turning into the fixer here), this is a new pastor. Transition is a huge part of life period. Your church is in transition. He is in transition. Seems to me that until the transition period passes, there's not much to do but wait. When the transition period is finished, the next step will be pretty clear. Are you prepared to just wait for a while?
tt
PS About churches, it helped me a lot to google how churches are set up or how churches are governed. Knowing how your church is ruled governmentally might be a big help.
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Thank you friends.
A mixed lot of advice which made me realise, I have to live my convictions I guess.
I prayed during the night and opened my bible and it was Matthew 12 32
"whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in this time or that to come"
It was exactly what i needed to hear.
However you are right also that it is not my responsibility and that the place is in transition.
I am going to write to the minister about how it made me feel, as I want to take a break from there for a while and go to help another place which needs a musician.
His response will tell me what i need to know.
I can say things kindly and neutrally; and maybe I do have some vested interest having spent the last six months smoothing over the last set of crises- which I know full well isn't any reason to be involved in this one!
There probably isnt much point in trying to change what is happening.
you know I don't believe that CB! I've been trying to change the situation with my ex for years!
Nil desperandum.... :)
Today I feel like i should do what I can do, and then forget about it.
Maybe the man is lost like so many of these evangelical people who have set up mean-spirited ideologies which truly do not sustain either spirituality or daily living. If he is unreceptive or I am the one out of step I will move on. Fast if it gets abusive Hops!
Thanks y'all ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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If you care, you say something. If you don't, you don't say anything and you move on.
Giving them information is just to help them.
Save yourself the effort if you don't care. Of course, I know you do or you wouldn't have posted.
<sigh> Circular circular circular thinking.
No easy answers.
I believe your intentions are positive. You aren't interested in criticizing for the sake of shaming, right?
Heck, there was a huge war in an Epsicopal church, I went to a few times, in this neck of the woods.
Half the church was doing the speaking in tongues thing and the other half was very conservative. Complete division and half the church ended up leaving over it. New blood, new direction. Personally, it creeped me out to have people yelling out "THERE'S AN UNBELIEVER IN OUR MIDST!" a few pews behind me, Always the one to feel guilty, it bothered me and I just knew everyone was staring at me, lol.
Not wrong, just not the way I feel comfortable worshipping. You should feel comfortable where you pray.
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You aren't interested in criticizing for the sake of shaming, right?
no. I would never shame anyone these days under any circumstances.
I wrote a bit of a long email and put it from my perspective but said I wasn't upset if he didn't feel I belonged there.
It depends what he is trying to create I guess.
There's a lot of N attitudes in religiob I have found, people assuming their perspective is right and the only one worth considering; I don't think i am doign that.
But nor will I sit by and sanction sexism or prejudice either.
it creeped me out to have people yelling out "THERE'S AN UNBELIEVER IN OUR MIDST!" a few pews behind me,
good gracious. How abusive. I would definitely leave if they did that.
You should feel comfortable where you pray.
yup. I am close to G_d in most places, but I felt vulnerable and annoyed in church on Sunday.
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Honestly, Write.
I hardly ever get any good prayers in at church. It was always a struggle to sit through the entire hour with little children and then all that off key singing..... oops. Nothing personal. Just not a singer, outside of the car, and if they were at all in tune, or doing that really cool chanting stuff they seem to save for every other blue moon, I'd complain less.
As it is, I got to a point where I "connected dots." Made realizations about life, even if I didn't sing or appreciate the droning on of others. Or pray and when I pray I either make a connection or I don't. Like looking at one of those pictures that turns into something else 3D if you stare at it long enough. Praying isn't just asking for stuff, IMO. I don't think most people make connections when they do it. <shrug> It's upsetting to sit in a church and be unable to pray bc of all the distractions and noise and people looking around at my kids coloring in bibles... just kidding.
It was the hymnals; )
No really, just kidding and I'd much prefer to sit in a completely quiet church and meditate. Such is the introvert's plight: /
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All churches made me feel bad. Never felt well in church. If I get a job in a regular school I will not go to church anymore. I only go because I work in a Christian school. But I am very tired, pastors are selfish narcissistic witches. The want to be worshiped, and if you say no to something they feel attacked.
I will read my bible, and pray, but I am looking for a job in public school. God help me.
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::Sigh:: Lupita.
I find it hard to say this, surprised I am really but.... if you get something out of church, find one that you enjoy and feel comfortable in. Don't let the hypocritichristians drive you from it, if you really want to go.
On the other hand, you don't need church to connect with God or be a spiritual being. I sometimes go to church when it's empty and I actually pray well in that setting. I enjoy the quiet, the stained glass and the feeling that God may actually be there. When the church is full..... I have the feeling God wouldn't approach it, under any circumstances. Wow, that's how I really feel!
Where I pray best.... is at home. When I pray best? When I'm in pain or take the time to appreciate what I have. What do I ask for? Never mind but know this, I take the time to offer empathy to Jesus, when I can. It can't be an easy job, that.
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I am really sorry that so many of us have had difficult and negative experiences, we are vulnerable at church.
I pray anywhere but I had my best prayers over in England in the small chapels of cathedrals which I knew has been part of local life for centuries....on quiet days I would often sit there for hours, meditating and praying and soaking the peace.
I got to go back to Chester two years ago, I just love it.
Your experiences make me more resolved to challenge religious abuse as much as any other abuse.
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I was presbyterian all my life. In the presbyterian church you cannot go when you want, it is closed. Pastor has a key and secretary. When you want to go you are incomodating them, you are casuing problems, they say that their facilities are not for our own gratification. ONly for Sunday.
Now I do not know what I am. Lost. Going ot methodist because that is where I work, but this sunday I was there after I left my mother in the airport and first time going out after my surgery, and nobody asked me how I was. They asked ofr money, they did.
I was about to cry, nobody noticed it. I felt like a basket of trash. Nobody asked me how i felt.
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In one of her posts CB said she had problems in her church too. If I am not mistaken ReallyMe had problems with a pastor too. My ex-pastor gave me one of the most painful experiences in my life.
is it us? Are we prone to have problems in church? Do we defy authority because we dislike authority? Do we challenge them?
What do we do and why?
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I have a comment about this church situation. It is the type of the church you are in. Many churches are what is called "fundamental." I spent many days in churches that were, and they have good points (accountability and keeping me on the right path), but also can get over into spiritual abuse (pastor controls every move you make).
It's all about deciding what YOU want in your life. Some people believe that the church is just a building you go to on sundays or saturdays. Some, want the church to have more of a "say" into their private lives, just as their family does.
For me, I like a happy medium. I enjoy the accountability factor of small churches and fundamental ones, but I also enjoy being FREE to speak my mind and object to things that don't line up with my beliefs.
It's all about what you believe GOD would have you to do. It's also about dealing with any of your triggers from the past that the church might be shooting you into by their dominant style.
~Laura
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It is the type of the church you are in. Many churches are what is called "fundamental."
hi Laura. How's it going?
I have been to some very basic or unusual belief situations where people have still been respectful and loving and especially so to 'outsiders' so I tend to believe the congregations where people engage in unpleasant or abusive behaviours contain leaders or members who want to act that way and thye find excuses within their faith to justify it.
Christian Fundamentalists often say people cannot really be 'Christians' unless they adhere to theses fundamental tennets of 'the church':
The virgin birth
Jesus as God or part of God
substitutionary atonement
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
The authenticity of Christ's miracles
some churches include the second coming.
The truth is that even within these sets of beliefs there are differences between churches and sects and cultures, right from the day of Jesus' life and death this has been so and the scientific era brought with it new ideas as the psychological and humane movements have and others will to come.
If the individual church is a good healthy place I believe that people are allowed a degree of individuality about their faith, and not forced to confirm or pretend in order to belong.
Even if one person's interpretation was 'the correct one' according to G_d, our faiths all develop differently, and I think sometimes in their zeal evangelistic leaders forget this. They can expect everyone to be falling on their knees before a blinding vision- when the reality may be a slow evolution of a consolidated faith over many years.
I believe the best church leaders know and understand that sensitivity is required to be 'fishers of men' not aggression or exclusion.
It's also about dealing with any of your triggers from the past that the church might be shooting you into by their dominant style.
in Europe now more and more guidelines are comign into place about what churches may or may not do and acceptable behaviour within law and guidelines. An organisation will ultimately not be able to call itself a religious institution if it is only for profit-gathering or has unacceptable practices.
And so it should be, enough people have suffered in the name of Jesus and the name of G_d.
I am becoming quite passionate about this as my faith has grown and my voice to speak up and say no to abuse.
Yelling 'there's an unbeliever' is certainly unacceptable. It is demeaning, pressurising and frightening.
There is so much abuse all around us that we become desensitised to that it becomes a norm and goes unrecognised and unchallenged!
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Hi Lupita:
I think you should visit lots of churches, maybe when no one is there at first.
The Episcopal church is where I go now, mainly bc they aren't elitist judgmental hypocrites, on the whole.
They also leave their churches open a lot of the time and I can go and just sit and sit and soak up the silence and grace I find there.
They also usually have some sort of walking meditation path that you can enjoy and meditate with. I like to walk them in my own way, which is fine. Usually people walk them very slowly but, I twist a lot and enjoy economy of motion and balance.
Anyone can worship and I find different people have completely different responses to the churches. Some find them warm and welcoming and some find them cold and mean. AT THE SAME CHURCH! Maybe it comes down to who you're sitting next to and peeing with, lol? There are nice people and meanies in all walks of life, including churches.
Find one that suits you, if you want to go. Me? I want chanting monks if I have to attend a service but that isn't widely available here, lol.
Relax. Visit a church when it's empty and just sit and pray, open the bible to a random page and ask for guidance in your thoughts. Listen. Look around you. Be mindful of the smells and the feelings you're experiencing. Care for yourself and make little bitty payments on those medical bills as you can, more when possible.
As long as you show intention to pay, they should be pretty patient with you. Don't focus on the pressures and worries. Focus on flossing or eating better or sitting in a book store perusing the self help section, then choose a book that speaks to you. Put whipped cream on your coffee if you like that and do a face scrub with oatmeal. Iron clean white pajamas and slip into clean crisp sheets with a good book and a cup of comfort, whatever you love to drink.
You're gonna be OK, Lupita.
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The topic of church and beliefs has been a touchy one down through the ages, of course, but what I will say, is that, if you are looking for a church where they will have no rules, no male-dominance or pastor-dominance, you might want to venture into a Unitarian one. They tend to welcome anything and everything there. not for ME at all. I like male-dominance to an extent, as I personally believe that men are more level-headed than the majority of women I've met in my life.
Any type of "christian" church is bound to have rules of some type that you don't like. You are learning to be voice-ful, so of course you will not appreciate somewhere that it seems only the other person's voice is considered.
If I didn't feel so strongly about what I consider to be TRUTH, I'd be saying "to each his own" but I personally believe that God's creation and creatures, need to adhere to certain principles. I suppose that kind of makes me a controller too. Oh well...I'm someone who feels strongly about things that are part of me.
BLessya'll
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Turns out I like taking communion if and when I do attend a church service.
I don't think Unitarians do that and the Episcopal church has female clergy, and most have made the decision to accept gay clergy as well. YAY for Episcopalians everywhere!
I love the fact that they embrace everyone.
I can't tolerate the whole male hierarchy elitist pig religions that subjugate the most vulnerable members, as a matter of course. Not saying any church embraces that outright.... I'm just sayin.
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if you are looking for a church where they will have no rules, no male-dominance or pastor-dominance, you might want to venture into a Unitarian one.
remember my Unitarian abuse experience!
My point is that people can circumvent or use any teachings they want to do cruel or unhealthy things if that is in their nature and their intention!
I think if people lived their faith as in their relationship with the spirit then they would be like you Laura and not do harm, and do good.
It is not just the structures under which we operate, but our own useage of them which makes things good or bad.
John's gospel has this right at least: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love........If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Love means we don't have to have all our own way, Christian love means following Jesus' teachings and adopting self-sacrifice.
Jesus didn't believe or teach half the things which people preach in his name though, and he was filled with love and told us to loev G_d and each other more than anything.
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Reallyme,
At the risk of offending anyone, I'd like to comment on this bit:
"if you are looking for a church where they will have no rules, no male-dominance or pastor-dominance, you might want to venture into a Unitarian one. They tend to welcome anything and everything there. "
I have been attending a Unitarian church for 6 months (in the UK - slightly different to UU churches in the US, but basically similar in outlook). I'd like to comment on the often-assumed idea that Unitairans have 'no rules' and allow 'anything'. That's not quite correct. Unitarians are broad-minded, and allow individuals to come to their own conclusions about what they believe, based on their own life experiences. Unitarians don't impose rules such as 'you must believe in the Resurrection' - some Unitarians believe in that anyway, but most don't. It's a private matter. Unitarian churches in the UK have a program of teaching called 'Building your own theology', where you discuss in groups what you believe, to work it out in your own mind, and then make a declaration about what you believe is right for you.
The bit about no male-dominance is correct - Unitarian churches have had female ministers for over 100 years. About half of the UK's ministers are women (not due to 'regulating' appointments or 'positive discrimination', it's just worked out like that). They have a very positive attitude to people of all sexual persuasions, and do civil partnership ceremonies, as they do marriages. The congregation is involved in decision-making, it isn't a top-down hierarchy. We don't do Communion.
Write, I don't know the details of what your 'Unitarian abuse experience' was. I'm sorry it happened whatever it was. People in any situation can be abusive. I don't mean to minimise your experience by writing this post, I just feel that what Unitarians stand for in general is often glossed over as 'well, they don't believe anything much, do they?' We do, it's just not talked about much!
Janet
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WRITE,
I did not remember that you were abused in a Unitarian church, but I am sorry that happened to you.
I was mentioning Unitarian, because, of all the churches I know of, they seem the least structured to me.
Janet, thank you for sharing the info about your church. I still say that Unitarian is very open-minded...much more so than a fundamental church would be.
~Laura
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I went to a church for 16 years and when I went through a divorce not one card or call. It was my parents church so I set out to find a new one. My mom told me if I was not going to in to their church she was not going to give me her blessing-in figure! So I went many places and landed at a spect church-7000 members but awesome. I also like the idea of hiding in a crowd while I feel out the hierarchy. We do small groups for connection and I feel really good about it.
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go to their church go figure great church
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I'm a Unitarian Universalist...
I do love my church.
Hops
www.uua.org (http://www.uua.org) for an overview
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what happened to me was I went to a UU church when I was pretty vulnerable and got hit upon by this man who turned out not only to be married but he had women everywhere especially at church! That was horrible but it was when at some time later the minister and I talked in depth and she revealed he had this pattern with women there- being nice to them when they are vulnerable- and had hurt people before but there was nothing she could do because we were all consenting adults etc.
I just said you should have told me and she said would it have made any difference and I said absolutely!
But I left and didn't go there for a long time, then went back and healed things. That guy I talk to him now, albeit keep him at arms' length and another guy who was pretty mean to me is now my friend, and I have some very close friends who stayed in touch during the time I was sick and supported me after I left. When i say supported me- I had to accept they wouldn't take sides though at the time, which smarted a bit then!
I go back there occasionally now and it is one of the happiest places I go to, though it's not the faith place for me, because of all the love and healign which has taken place through what happened.
I've never done that before- gone back and set things straight; I never felt worthy somehow to impose myself. What I found though was that others were somewhat ashamed by their behaviour and willing to be friends. The guy who once sent me the most caustic email ( I shared it here I think ) is very affectionate but I am also careful not to trigger his boundaries.
No place is perfect of course, but they are executing a behaviour charter at that church now, and more rules.
I've been to tons of denominations in my life here and overseas, and they all believe slightly different things, the problems come when people have an agenda of their own or when they decide everyone must believe exactly what they're told etc.
That's not possible without a lot of compromise and potential abuse.
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re women ministers, it is a shame some CHristian churches persist in the values of the first century; they were not Jesus' values.
But people become comfortable with what is customary even when it is wrong. Exclusivity and dominance is wrong. Abuse is abuse. We act like in liberal society these things are arbitrary but we choose them or to be part of them....
As Laura says some churches people like things done 'traditionally' but if all churches were male-dominated I believe the church would become obsolete; England has had to face exactly that issue and much of Europe.
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I haven't heard back from our new minister yet.
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Church guy took son and me music supply shopping, it was wonderful to see how playful and natural he was with my son, and how much my son appreciated that.
He so needs more male role models.
Son said afterwards he liked the guy 'but he's obviously gay...'!
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Someone called me today and told me to increase my prices, you remember I said I am not quite charging enough to make the business viable, well he said I need to charge and extra $15 an hour!
Life is really opening up for me.
Love to everyone, hope your day is good.
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That was a good post Write. I found I never felt comfortable charging enough for my services. When I did... I always got it but I agonized quite a bit. So glad things are looking up for you.