Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: innerquest on June 27, 2007, 11:30:34 PM
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Hi everyone! This message board is mecca for me. I come here every now and then. Every time I learn something, and renew my understanding of narcissism, and remind me about chilling truth about narcissit when my heart is soft, memory got foggy.
I see my narcissit mother in many stories, although she is chinese, the narcissists are universal, there is no culture/racial boundry for their behavior, which is cold, extremely selfish, vicious, malicious. Although they are mothers, but they really don't have your best interests in heart, and no matter what you do, how hard you try, you can not change their sick ways.
It took me so many years, so much suffering to realize and accept this. It was a mental/emotional hell. There are so many things she did, I don't even know where to start. But whatever she did is for control, monitary material gains, self preservation at any cost, all typical narcissist textbook.
I got 15 years hijacked, my mind entangled in her dramas, I had countless sleepless night, I cried, I don't understand, I got angry, I got trick again, I rescue her, come to her aid again, etc etc. How stupid can you be, why can't you learn? What a total brain washed idiot.
Then about a year ago, a vague thought or a feeling occured to me, this is a cycle, abuse-fight-until my guilt conscience/internal conflict/pity could not hold it anymore, then forgive and go back to her never discussing what had happened, pretending nothing happened. Then another round of ambush began. This only reinforce her act, you can almost see the glee on her face(I really got you under my thumb,humph!), and feel darkness of mount doom encroaching. I realized that it was a structural conflict which can not be resolved inside it(from Robert Fritz's the path of least resistance). I thought and thought, whatever I have done did not produce desired result, I should stop contacting her at all . Then tremendous guilt, self doubt, internal talk almost drove me insane, but I persisted, I hold my ground, not giving in to the little voice. It has been very very hard. But it was worth it, it was life saving and life giving. It was an awakening from zombiehood/servitue/codependency.
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Hello innerquest:
I enjoyed reading your post.
I always learn something from reading other people's struggles and how they overcome.
So glad to you're no longer confused.
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Thank you lighter for you encouragement!
This is what I found, first I realize the current abuse, and said no to the abuse. Then the gate is open, I have to look back to my childhood, I have to face past, belittling, put downs, no voice, a disfunctional family I grow up from. It all made me who I am today, I gave myself a diagnose - severe codependent. Lots of work to do, but awareness is the first step.
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Yup yup yup.
Awareness is BIG.
It sounds like self discovery was easy for you, though I'm sure it was much harder than you make it seem.
I find confusion creeps back in, though I can't trick myself into believing my N will ever be anything but what he is.
I still get confused and have to really fight my way back to being steady and OK sometimes.
As always, it gets better and easier with time.
Simply a very painful time consuming process that just creeps up on us when we least expect it to get better, IME.
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Welcome, IQ!
(Hope you don't mind the acronym but to me it fits, as in SMART.)
I can imagine how terribly hard you fought to hold the line. I am awed by your resolve.
That took tremendous courage and determination, and it was thrilling to read about your fight for your right to live in dignity and with self-respect.
Thank you for sharing your inspiring story with us.
I'm glad you're here.
(Do you think some of your mother's behavior was taught to her by the culture? Is there anything unique about her parental cruelty? I wonder if our Western culture produces mother-narcissists with certain traits, and if other culture produce different variations.)
But that's not the most important thing about your story, what makes you different. The important thing is your amazing awakening and the courage you have shown in responding to life.
Welcome again!
Hopalong
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Innerquest,
Welcome to the board. It's really hard to stop seeing them at all, isn't it? I think you're very strong. I stopped seeing my Nmum 13 years ago. It does get easier with time. The are always reservations and 'what ifs', but it is definitely the right decision.
I'm glad the board is helpful to you.
Janet
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Dear Inner Quest,
WOW-- You managed to figure all that out by yourself. I ,only, started really healing once I found the board.
You and I have some interesting parallels. I started seeing that it was like the 'abusive" relationship,too. Also, one day it just "hit" me that I was not born" to be her garbage pail. .
These two insights got me on the road to disentangle myself from her web. I would guess that the cultural difference would not have too much to do with NPD.
I tried the different "steps" to make the relationship O.K. I tried doing everything that she wanted. I tried just ignoring her terrible ways and acting "normal"
The abuse escalates when she perceives any weakness on your part. It is malignant,vicious and life destroying. . Nothing can mitigate the horror of an NPD mother.I am so sorry that you suffered so much , Inner Quest . However, you have found a home,here. Love Ami
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Welecome. I am 50 years old. Just reacently discovered why I felt so lonely and abandoned. You are in the right place. There are many people here with the same problem and at different states of deveopment in understanding.
You will find great help here.
Love to you.
God bless you.
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Thank you Lupita, Ami, JanetLG, Hopalong, Lighter,
Thank you for taking time to read and respond, it made me feel welcomed here. Your words have brought tears to my eyes. I feel the love and connection.
I am in my mid forties. I have a wonderful family of my own. But when it comes to NPD mother, you are still on you own. I have cried and talked to my husband so many times over the fifteen years of marriage(I came to realise she is a NPD about two years ago) I find him not really enthusiatic about hearing all the negative dark materials again and again. Plus I never listen to him, I always end up following my inner guilt wiring. It is no use talking to friends, they all have normal human mothers. So you don't have any validation. It was a year ago I came across this board luckily. I was so excited. I knew I was not alone anymore! I never dared to post. I remember someone on board asked why people only read and not respond, I was one of them. I read and read. That was all I could do. I was truely voiceless then. But the reading helped me, the struggles of other people inspired me. I have been reading books extensively for last 2.5 years on NPD, Adult Abised child, Codependent and other spiritual psycology subjects. But I alway come back to this board.
Right now I have been trying to write about my experince and my story. I failed after several tries, it all got side tracked or tangled up. I will do it later.
Lupita: Thank you! I believe in God. I believe we have essence of god in us. I am just starting to exert that power inside me, which including to start posting here.
Ami: Thank you! I am exactly like you, the healing starts after reading the posts here. My mother also uses my soft poins to stab me. She said after a fight: I am going to come back even after death to strangle at you neck, you are superstitious, aren't you? She knew I have a leaning on spiritaul side. She said about my children because I love them: They are not good things, and they are not going to turn out good. She said in chinese, I can not translate the vicious.
JanetLG: Thank you! You are strong, and smart, you did it 13 years ago, and there is no internet yet. I woke up too late, only now I realize that my life is also important, I should not trash it because of her.
Hopalong: I knew you, I read many your posts! Thank you for IQ, that is smart of you! I like it. I am going to start to talk on this board, and gaining my voice back. I need lots of IQ. You see the mouse in the experiment, after you electric shock it on certain route, they learn quickly, not repeat it anymore. While me, a homo sapiens, overly educated, have been doing the same things over and over until now, it was really sad. One chinese tradition is young has to obey elder, and have to take care old when parents are old. I called it old eats young, it is all self serving. I think it is an outcome of feudal agricultural society, and also from the dark side of big hats like confucious or meng zi. I got it drummed in me from young by my mother, I have to take care her, have to take care of her. Although she has job, pension, apt, she just expect you to wait on her and pamper her. Other than that, she is vulgar, mean, love to see other peoples's misery, all negativity, after talking to her, I need several days to detox, it was like to crawl thru the scum, and she love to drag you down to her level. That is her specialty, vulgar and lowly, other thatn that, witches are witches. Thank you for point out that is "fight for your right to live in dignity and with self-respect", it is exactly that. I always get don't think you are better, you are nothing, you have come out my ass, how can you think you are better. The truth is I never though I was better, and I never said I was better.
Lighter: Thank you! I don't how to convey on my first post. I wrote terribly, and I try too hard to write. The awakening process was very hard. I used to think before I fall in sleep, and the first thing I wake up, she consumed me. It is a circlular thought: I can not stand her, all the lies, abuses, and then turn around, thinking about any good things she did, like once she made noodles for me when I was young, and ask me if I want it cut to narrow or wide, I felt her love at that moment, and then I would feel guity, why I can not accept her way, do her wishies, and forgive her, why I am so small hearted? I maybe really selfish as she said. Like this I would beat myself up internally. I forgot to mention that I have been financially supporting her all this time, and she has been bad mouthing me behind my back. My life was suck out me! I guess I only can take so much. Now I start reclaim myself, like a child learning to walk, very wobbily. But I feel it is freedom, free of the bondage.
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InnerQuest, you've got it!
Thank you for posting your discovery so clearly.
You will find that these cycles of
abuse - fight - catharsis - avoid discussing the problem so that it is never really addressed or solved - abuse - fight - ad nauseam
do not only occur with your mother. You'll see them elsewhere. In your workplace, among your friends, in therapy groups.
Vicious cycles = unaddressed problems. Always.
One important thing to bear in mind is that it takes two people to communicate well, but only one to sabotage communications.
When you hit a glitch, try Leveling [a nondefensive, nonblaming, direct statement of what you see and feel is going on.] See how this is reacted to.
If you Level with a person and get defensiveness, arrogance, attack, or ignoring in response, you can be reasonably sure that they own a significant portion of the communication problem. No matter how good a communicator they appear to be, no matter how charmingly they come across when they are getting their way.
The one exception to this in my experience is people in early recovery who have taken responsibility for their own issues but haven't managed to change their reflex responses yet. These people will 'flash' at you with their old patterns of attack, defensiveness, etc. BUT they will then self-appraise, and if they're healthy enough to accept the responsibility, they'll own up to it, and apologize.
Your eyes are open to your family cycles. You'll find that you're also able to avoid these other cycles, or deal with them, now that you know what causes them. Congratulations!
PS: 'dealing with' these cycles doesn't always = curing them. It takes two people to heal a relationship. When only one person wants an honest interaction, the best you can do is to figure out what's going on - again, the repetitive patterns will always tell you, once you see them - and then remind yourself, every time it happens, that it's happening again, and that this is only an interaction, not a relationship.
Then you can decide how much interaction you want to invest.
Best of luck to you and welcome to the club!
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Dear IQ,
WOW. the insight that you have is phenomenal. You expressed the N mother so very well. I saw more deeply the subtleties of their abuse.
You have found us,here. You will be validated and you are validating us.
I am so glad that you are here. I can see from your post that with an NPD mother,, cultural differences do not matter at all. The dynamics are exactly the same. Look forward to hearing from you soon Love Ami
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Hello Innerquest :)
I am so glad to finally "hear" your voice! I'm sorry for your pain.
As far as the junk your parent figure has told you about yourself, your children...I just want to combat it a bit.
When she said you came out of her butt...not truth. You came from her womb; a place close to her heart, created by God to be LOVED, not mistreated and abused.
About her children being nothing and not turning out well. Children are gifts from above, set on earth for us to lead and guide on good paths until they can make decisions on their own. Your children have EVERY possibility of turning out brilliant and insightful...look at their MOTHER!
You are a blessing innerquest. Keep sharing and we'll keep listening and responding.
~Laura
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Hi Innerquest,
Welcome to the board. Wonderful to read of your work on breaking the cycle. I also want to acknowledge the fact that you did not fall into another N relationship. Am a bit envious but very very pleased for you.
axa
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hi Innerquest,
Welcome to the Board. This is a warm and loving place where people really understand.
So glad you decided topost.
You have incredible insight and I hope you will share your knowledge.
I loved when you said this because the same thing happened to me:
"I got 15 years hijacked, my mind entangled in her dramas, I had countless sleepless night, I cried, I don't understand, I got angry, I got trick again, I rescue her, come to her aid again, etc etc. How stupid can you be, why can't you learn? What a total brain washed idiot. "
With an N, there's never a resolution to a disagreement. It just keeps going.
I think Storm really nailed it when she said:
"You will find that these cycles of abuse - fight - catharsis - avoid discussing the problem so that it is never really addressed or solved - abuse - fight - ad nauseam
Vicious cycles = unaddressed problems. Always.
One important thing to bear in mind is that it takes two people to communicate well, but only one to sabotage communications.
PS: 'dealing with' these cycles doesn't always = curing them. It takes two people to heal a relationship. When only one person wants an honest interaction, the best you can do is to figure out what's going on - again, the repetitive patterns will always tell you, once you see them - and then remind yourself, every time it happens, that it's happening again, and that this is only an interaction, not a relationship."
Sounds like your mother engaged you in these abusive argument cycles, as did mine. I think that when I finally saw the pattern of the abusive argument cycles, I finally realized I was being abused (and that I was co-dependent). Like you, I was brain washed (and blind), so, for most of my life, I didn't realize the argument cycles were abusive until I realized that the arguments never resolved the disagreements. Now I realize that my mother never wanted to resolve disputes, she only wanted to fight and rage because fighting and raging were her release.
So, thank you Innerquest (and Storm), You both validated the hell I went thru all my life due to these abusive argument cycles.
I hope you will keep posting Innerquest. I love your insights.
Love,
Sally
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Hi IQ:
You are so smart. You are talking back to this ridiculous insane brainwashing:
I have to take care her, have to take care of her. Although she has job, pension, apt, she just expect you to wait on her and pamper her. Other than that, she is vulgar, mean, love to see other peoples's misery, all negativity, after talking to her, I need several days to detox, it was like to crawl thru the scum, and she love to drag you down to her level. That is her specialty, vulgar and lowly, other thatn that, witches are witches. Thank you for point out that is "fight for your right to live in dignity and with self-respect", it is exactly that. I always get don't think you are better, you are nothing
You see it, you know it... and you'll win!
Hops
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Stormchild: thanks for putting it so clearly --- " cycles of abuse - fight - catharsis - avoid discussing the problem so that it is never really addressed or solved - abuse - fight - ad nauseam Vicious cycles = unaddressed problems. Always." ----- It was exctly like that!
Avoid discussing the problem was the habit groomed from young. If I express any different opinion, they would go berserk, they considered it as personal attacks on them. I never really talked with both of my parents, and I dare not to say anything congruent to either of them(cause 1).
Children are not respected in my family. At times we are burden to them, at times we are useful little slaves to do chores, at times we are used as window dressing if we excelled at school. My father is immersed in power and politics, my mother used her youth and beauty to marry him, she is shallow, lazy and vain. It was a perfect marriage for both of them. They adored/endorsed each other, so wraped up in their world. The children are the byproducts. They would think it crazy to treasure children, instead they thought I owe my lifer to them(cause 2). I was drilled with that idea.
I am doomed/disvantaged dealing with them because of above reasons. As a child(even adult child) how can you not loved you parents? How can you suspects that they don't love you and never will? Subconciously you would try to hide the fact, forget and buried it deep, and coping with various mechanism, such as grabbing, neediness, competiviness, winning, whinning, etc. If they disliked your mechanism, they would accuse you of a bad seed, bad this, bad that. You are in a double bind. Then when you are older, try to deal with them, and dealings arel random, sequential, you never had a Aha moment to connect the dots. cycles of abuse - fight - catharsis - avoid discussing the problem so that it is never really addressed or solved - abuse - fight - ad nauseam.
That is until Nauseam. At the end of my interaction with my mother, I got physically sick when hearing her phoney voice, my heart palpitating, my stomack all twist up. I am so scared, like a caged animal. My body revolted. My guts knows better than my mind(programmed guilt ridden mind). That is a turning point. I know I can not pretending anymore. My body revolted.
What is price I am going to pay for the life they give me? The life they give me is a lease, they want to take rent from it. Just like a business.
The fairytales of snowwhite, hansel and gretel, their wicked step mothers are realistic, could be drawn from real life, and the mother can be the real mother. Think about it, the egomaniacs, sociopath, psycopath, NPD, BPD, etc, they all can reproduce, if they are who they are, chaos in your life.
Thank you Ami, reallyMe, Axa, Sally, thank you for your understanding and validation, it means a lot to me.
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WOW Innerquest! I want to encourage you in something here.
You have an inner GIFT of writing! I so enjoy reading your eloquent posts. Please, if you haven't already, consider going to college or something, to develop this unique gift you have. Just AWESOME!
Innerquest: What is price I am going to pay for the life they give me? The life they give me is a lease, they want to take rent from it. Just like a business.
This is soooooooooo true! That is why some X folks will say "AFTER ALL I'VE DONE FOR YOU! I MADE YOU WHO YOU ARE! I GAVE YOU EVERYTHING, AND THIS IS HOW YOU REPAY ME!" (spoken when you dare to confront them, generally)
I believe you have more of a handle on all this than you even realize, IQ. Please, don't doubt yourself. You have much much wisdom and could publish BOOKS about this! Let what was meant for HARM, turn out for your good! Use this knowledge you have, to share with others and teach them what it's really all about.
I'm just excited for you now...knowledge is such POWER!
~Laura
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Thank you reallyME, that is about the nicest thing you can say to me. I want to hug you for that! How enpowering! How generous!
((((((((Hug)))))))))))))))
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((((((((((((((((((((((IQ))))))))))))))))))))))))) Love Ami
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IQ.... I identify with the circular feelings.
Your mother uses your humanity against you.
She uses your decency as her prime weapon.
She confuses you with the occassional kind word but....
only listen to the mean things. The kind things are meant to destroy your defenses.
She's broken and she can't be fixed. I'm sorry and I don't think you'll ever really understand why.
Work on distancing yourself from her.... no contact with her sounds reasonable to me.
(((IQ))) You writing just flows, you express yourself very well.
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lighter, you said it! That is it! Thanks for your insights, I know it vaguely but not brought to words. Your mother uses your humanity against you. She uses your decency as her prime weapon. She is very intuitive, she zero in on you like hawk. I am bind of decency, I hate to get down to her level. but she is ruthlessly plotting, manipulating. That is why the abuse cycle perpetually repeating for so long. So, if so called humanity, decency made me a victum, what is the use of it? Or I use it wrongly, it have became my bondage?