Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Tokyojim on April 11, 2004, 01:01:11 PM
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As I mentioned on a number of posts, I have an N "friend" of about 40 years but fortunately do not live in the same state.
When we were in high school and shortly thereafter, I instinctively knew that he should break from his mother. I tried to convince him to go away to college, get an apartment, or move to another state of which he was so fond.
Well, he stayed with her until she died at about 83. He never married and virtually always dated women who were abused or suffering from bipolar, depression, etc. They therefore never reached his standard, and he stayed with Mum.
I would visit occasionally when I went to his town to see my brother and his family. Anyway, I saw one incident that unnerved me and would like to relate it.
He was probably in his 40s. I was on the back porch, about to knock on the door. He was naked in the bathroom, apparently after having taken a shower. He walked stark naked into the other room (no towel or anything), and spoke with his mother about some simple thing, calling her by her first name.
Maybe I am "uptight" or whatever, but I cannot imagine standing naked and chatting in front of any female relative, and certainly would be very surprised if my daughter did that in front of me.
I never told him I saw it. He has remarked, numerous times, how happy his mother must have been to have a young man around the house and how he became a surrogate husband after her divorce.
Comments? Impressions?
Thanks!
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HI Tokyojim:
Yes it seems as if that is just what he had arranged with her to be; her young husband. The alarm signals are going off everywhere on the boundaries issues here; being this close and enmeshed with her is he gay?
Am wondering what brought this up for you at this time? Surf
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Surf,
Thank you for your information. Your comments triggered some memories about the N's relationships with women. They were predominately sado-masochistic. I mean whips and ropes. He kept telling me how great anal sex is, and insisted that I should try it with any girlfriend. After pressing him about "why" he likes it so much, he finally said that it was because it really hurts the female if done violently and one feels powerful and in control. As a textbook N with projections, he insisted that I really wanted to do this and should not fight my true desires....
He may have dabbled in a gay lifestyle. At one point, he bragged about his many gay associates. However, years ago, when I read a book, "Class" by Fussell, something jumped out. The book was about how Americans search for status. The author made one comment about some status seekers associating with gay men because they are sometimes more into the arts, are very sophisticated, use language eloquently, etc. The N changed his speaking patterns, bragged about attending concerts, museums, etc. at that time. In addition, he insisted, without using the word "gay," that I needed to realize my true sexuality. A number of times, he said that I was a "sexual pervert" and should not be ashamed of it. I must comment that none of this concretely affects me, except that it does anger me when I take the form of a projection of his unconscious drives and do not exist as a person.
What triggered the comment? I saw a movie last night, "Dead Again," a good thriller in which one character was basically emotionally crippled because of being too close to mommy. Probably in his 50s and still with mom.
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TokyoJim,
Your message (the homosexuality part) re. your friend, reminds me so much of some things regarding my own former situation with my xN boyfriend.
He had not had any relationship, or dated at all, for 11 years (and that was his 1st girlfriend) before he met me (35 when met, so since 24). Of course, that should have been a major red flag for me, but I covered it with denial/magical thinking.
While together, I noticed the following:
-He once said: I have flipped channels & sometimes seen nude women, I see pretty girls on the street, and didn't feel anything, but with you, I feel incredibly turned on.
-He was overly defensive about anything related to homosexuality.
-I saw a pic. of his girlfriend at 24 and I literally lost my breath, though I tried so hard to hide it at the time. It looked soooo much like a male!
-Some of his movements seemed effeminate (though this can be the case for truly hetro. men).
-When I questioned him about girls his sister tried to set him up with over the years (I was very curious about 11 years alone) he would always say that he just didn't feel anything when with them.
What I am really wondering, is whether the staying away from committed, stable relationshps with women (as a life long thing), is good marker of sexual preference issues?
Abstaining could be due to severe emotional/psychological issues but it seems as though even people with problems in this area still don't shy away from relationships. They usually get in many and wreak havoc on them all.
I am wondering if for those who abstain altogether, whether the issue is sexuality much of the time.
I asked him point blank once if he had sexuality issues, and he laughed and vehemently denied it. I don't think he was at an emotional place where he would have even admitted to himself, let alone me, though.
I do know that he has major/pathological trust issues.
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HI Tokyojim and guest;
Tokyojim; this sado masochistic friend of yours couldn't have liked women much at all if he got such a thrill from hurting them; he sounds pretty messed up. Interesting that he encouraged you to get in touch with your "true" sexuality; I wonder what his thoughts were about his true sexuality? Its easy to assume that he was gay from what you've shared and even so he sounds perverse.
Guest;
I'm glad your XN boyfriend was a boyfriend and not a husband! His homophobia was probably a red flag; his denial that he didn't have any sexual issues is suspect along with some of the other cues you mentioned. you can count your lucky stars that you didn't marry this person and then have to suffer this for a period of time or have to extricate yourself from an unworkable marriage . I'm glad he's your X; are you with someone healthier now?
Surf
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Hi Surf,
"are you with someone healthier now?"
I'm not in a relationship at all right now. It has been about a year since the several year (on-off as it typically goes with N) dating relationship ended & I am still recovering.
After 7 months of not speaking at all (my wishes) we also still talk by telephone only (no in person meeting) a couple of times a week, as friends. There is no other "energy" than friendship present in our exchanges.
You are right that it is lucky for me that things ended and I *really* do feel that, but part of me seems to need to grieve the loss of "what could have been *if only*", still. This is a psychological healing thing, and not a magical thinking thing that I would act on. I know the painful truth/reality all too well.
I do get lonely for a *healthy* romantic relationship, but I know I need to take care of some other personal things first. I can't consider it until at least the end of the year <sigh>...
Thanks for the input.
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HI Guest;
Sounds like you're in the "right" state of mind about this. I can certainly relate to grieving the "if only it could have been different". Good luck to you! :) Surf
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I can relate to this post. My N MIL has always viewed her sons as her surrogate husbands. Her oldest son, my BIL, is also a N. They have such a dysfunctional attachment. It's borderline creepy (Norman Bates mother creepy ). My MIL was unbelieveably jealous of me for "stealing" her son (we dated for 1 1/2 yrs and he asked me to marry him without me ever bringing the subject up). She was much more like a jealous ex girlfriend than a MIL to me. And she would act provocatively towards her sons. She's even said things to me like "People ask me if I'm B's wife (my BIL) instead of his mother. Wierd, creepy, icky. -El
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El,
Thanks for your comment. I knew the N and his mother since we were 16. Of course, I did not know anything about personality disorders then, but instinctively knew his mother was bad news. I tried to convince him to go away to college, get an apartment or move to a certain state he liked very much. His mother hated me. I later found out that she said I was a homosexual trying to seduce her son and that I was a dangerous degenerate. Anything to keep me away from him. She was like that about his girlfriends also. He could not bring them around the house and lied to her about dating anyone.
After we both turned around 40, she no longer hated me. She was secure with him by then.
Does your husband realize his mother and brother are Ns, and what he has to do about it?
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TokyoJim,
your friend's mother sounds a lot like my H's N mom as far as trying to divide you two up. My MIL used to make my H "choose" between her and I. For example, "needing" him on Valentine's day evening after the kids were asleep, calling on a Friday night when she knew we had plans to do something for her, etc. Constantly. She'd also say things to me like "put your hair up" when I received compliments for it being down, doing all sorts of catty high school type things. I didn't even get it, I just wanted her to like me that I basically enabled her to behave that way towards me and my H did too. He feels horrible about it now .
"Does your husband realize his mother and brother are Ns, and what he has to do about it?"
Yes both he and I both recently discovered this after it became painfully obvious (if you read my older posts, you'd see what I mean, waaay too long of a story). He has not spoken to his brother or mother for almost a month.
Take care, -El
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I read a book about this years ago called "Emotional Incest". I forget the author's name. It was awful but necessary reading because my step-daughter, was/is attached this way to her father, my husband.
She's 26 and still sits on his lap, kisses him on the lips, loves me/hates me, gets jealous if he buys me anything, holds my husband's hand if we all go out together, beats me to the front seat of the car first so that she can sit next to him. Puts her hand on his lap all the time when she's sitting next to him on the loung ot in the car, but rests it up very high, near you-know-where.
When she buys new undies sets she comes over and models them for him. Aaagh! Anyway, I read this book and I realised he definitely caused her to be like this. His relationship with her mother always stunk, so he got his female companionship from his oldest daughter till I came along. He never went out with his wife, but he used to take his kids out a lot, and his oldest daughter was like his wife and took on the role well. Also she was like a mother to the other kids too. She loved it. He'd discuss his plans and dreams with her, and let her choose where they'd go. They used to holiday away without his wife. Just him and the kids. What a nightmare for her when I came along.
It's never settled down. Her dad has listened to a lot of teh book, and knows it's not healthy, and can see how he created it. He's tried hard to introduce some boundaries but when he does she gets really hostile and we know she can't cope with it or stand it.
For example, he tries to turn his head when she goes in for the long kisses on the lips but she just keeps searching and moving her head till she gets the kiss she needs. Then the last time she modelled the new undies he absented himself after mumbling something pathetic like "Very nice." Not exactly what I wanted him to say, but I guess he did his best. At least he didn't hang around. Blaah. It gives me the creeps sometimes. But it's a work in progress.
I've thought of getting her the book but I think she'd hate me even more, and I really don't think she'd read it. She's not a reader at all. She married a guy who looks like her dad and has the same occupation as him.
Anyway, the book was excellent and was called "Emotional Incest." Well worth a read if you have serious questions about this or are in a close relationship with someone like this.
Guest
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He has not spoken to his brother or mother for almost a month.
Wow, El. That's such great news! Sending strength vibes your way to keep up the resistance! :D
Wildflower
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Wow, Guest. What a creepy situation! :oops: :shock: :oops:
For example, he tries to turn his head when she goes in for the long kisses on the lips but she just keeps searching and moving her head till she gets the kiss she needs. Then the last time she modelled the new undies he absented himself after mumbling something pathetic like "Very nice." Not exactly what I wanted him to say, but I guess he did his best. At least he didn't hang around. Blaah. It gives me the creeps sometimes. But it's a work in progress.
It sounds like he's finally putting in the effort to take the right steps towards correcting their relationship, and that's so great. It must be so difficult for both of them, though. All of you, really. I'm sitting here thinking about how I'd feel in this situation, and while I can't really imagine it, I wonder what would happen if he tried to have an honest conversation with his daughter instead of dropping hints and making changes without telling her what's going on. Maybe a conversation about how he messed up and it's not her fault but that he'd like to make it up to her and try to have a normal father-daughter relationship with her? I only say that because I know how I often jump to the the worst conclusion when I'm confused about something or don't understand why things have changed (he doesn't love me anymore, she's making him do this, blah blah blah). It may be something that just takes time to change, but I thought I'd throw that out there in any case.
Wildflower
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Aaagh - you got me!!! My mother was well 'into' kissing on the lips. I remember having a serious conversation with her in my teens once - I didn't want any more kissing on the lips unless it was a very, very special moment!!! Actually I didn't want it at all, but I was trying to cut her some slack!!! Bleah!
Hey - that's a boundary! I was setting boundaries!!!!! :shock:
R
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Just as a general answer to Portia - In my memory, it seems pretty taboo to kiss a parent on the lips, same or opposite sex. I used to kiss my parents on the cheek in greeting, or even in the air when briefly touching cheeks. A couple of friends even said, "You kiss your father on the cheek? That's disgusting!" (I ignored them, but point that out to indicate people's feelings about limits on such contact with one's parents.)
I grew up around many Italian-Americans who are very demonstrative physically. However, I never saw any lip kissing in families.
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Tokyojim,
Your high school friend and his mother have a sick relationship. I doubt if he is an adult sexually. So it's hard to say whether he's gay, straight, or what. He is simply disturbed in all areas.
I think you tried your best to help him, but you really had no power over this situation at all.
bunny
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Bunny,
Thank you for your feedback.
I want to be very frank and honest when I post. In doing so, I must say that I am still angry after all of these years. It may be a male macho thing, but I am angry that he did not have the guts and fortitude to break away from his mother. I look at him like a coward. My mother doted excessively on my older brother; many do. His reaction was a healthy one - he joined the military, connected to his girlfriend, got married and has been for over 30 years.
I UNDERSTAND that my N friend grew up with pathology and I should realize this. My cerebral part says that. But my guts, my heart, says: Have some courage, face life, be an adult!
I am now wrestling with the idea of never contacting him again. Hard decision to make after 40 years, but this forum and my readings are making it clear that there will never be a "real" friendship, and his N behavior is getting worse since his "mommy" died. The perverse and angry part of me is enjoying his deterioration and wants to watch him sink as he ages. (He is deathly afraid of aging.) Please do not come down hard on me, I just want to express feelings that I am wrestling with now.
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I want to be very frank and honest when I post. In doing so, I must say that I am still angry after all of these years. It may be a male macho thing, but I am angry that he did not have the guts and fortitude to break away from his mother. I look at him like a coward. My mother doted excessively on my older brother; many do. His reaction was a healthy one - he joined the military, connected to his girlfriend, got married and has been for over 30 years.
Tokyojim, these feelings are perfectly natural. Of course you feel disappointed and disgusted in him for being so weak, for choosing his sick mother over your friendship and over other healthy things. Nothing wrong with those feelings.
I UNDERSTAND that my N friend grew up with pathology and I should realize this. My cerebral part says that. But my guts, my heart, says: Have some courage, face life, be an adult!
I wonder if this thought is really meant for your parent(s)?
I am now wrestling with the idea of never contacting him again. Hard decision to make after 40 years, but this forum and my readings are making it clear that there will never be a "real" friendship, and his N behavior is getting worse since his "mommy" died. The perverse and angry part of me is enjoying his deterioration and wants to watch him sink as he ages. (He is deathly afraid of aging.) Please do not come down hard on me, I just want to express feelings that I am wrestling with now.
I think it's natural to get some satisfaction from the downfall of someone with whom we are extremely angry. I think you have a lot of ambivalence toward this guy. On one hand, rage that he disappointed and hurt you so deeply by choosing sickness and pathology over health. On the other hand, compassion and a continued curiosity about him. Pragmatically, I wouldn't contact him. It would lead down a road that I think you'd be happier not taking. Alternatively, I might explore with a therapist my continued curiosity and interest in this person. Because I think it's really a curiosity about yourself.
bunny
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Hi TokyoJim: I've been reading with great interest your posts, but I'm just not getting a clear signal to come in somehow...
You said that your brother had a overly doting, (or something like that), mom, but he took a stand... Do you have the same mom, and if so, how were you treated?
This is simply a question, because I'm new, and a little because of some of the things you seem to be saying...
Do you believe that you have some N traits? Is that why your 'all-out' N friend so enrages you? If not, why is who he is cause such an extreme, (my perception), reaction in you?
Your experiences with N's seem markedly different than others on here, as does your proximate relationship to the N in your life, (this is relative I know), yet your reactions are almost violent, (which, believe me, I understand that kind of rage, but...)...
I'm about 89.9% sure that my motivation for asking you these questions is with good intent, :) , but it's possible that I have been 10.1% triggered in some way, so please allow for this in considering this reply, OK?
Best regards, Candle
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Thank you Bunny!
Yes, it also troubles me that I maintain such curiosity and interest. Since we were friends at such a young age, his psyche is probably part of mine and vice-versa.
I instinctively know that I must avoid this person. Interactions do not lead to peace and enjoyment of daily life. Thank you for your encouragement and insights.
I am not sure about your saying that there is a possibility that I am talking about my parents. But there may be some good insight there. I am sometimes still angry at my mother, even though she has been dead for over 35 years. When she died, I felt "good riddance," and knew enough to fake sadness at her wake and funeral. One part of me feels relaxed and normal, but another says that something must be wrong to not care when she died and to even be glad.
My father maybe should not have told me, but when I was maybe 30-35, he told me that she wanted an abortion with me and that he stopped her. Of course, I did not know that as a child, but I always suspected that she did not love me or did not want me, even though she said so repeatedly. I do not see N behaviors in my mother. Rather, I think that she had an anxiety disorder. Interesting that my father never used the word "love" with me, but I never doubted it from him.
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I am the "Guest" writer of the previous response. Somehow I responded without registering.
Candle, I do not doubt any of your intentions and take no offense. Please feel free to speak freely.
I have seen some N behaviors in myself and wrote about them on the thread "Confessions of someone infected" or the like. And, about 35 years ago, I felt so much rage that I actually carried out something dangerous to him. And I must emphasize, I am not such a person. I used to box but gave it up because I did not have the heart to hit anyone hard.....
Anyway, I guess it is showing still. I am too mature to carry out anything now, but that rage is not good for the spirit. Thanks for the reminder. I must rid myself of this poison. It seems that two things will be necessary: Avoid him and learn more about myself.
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Hi Tokyojim,
I’m really glad you found a place where you feel comfortable talking about your relationship with the N friend because I can tell from what you write that it’s been troubling you for a while.
I am not sure about your saying that there is a possibility that I am talking about my parents. But there may be some good insight there. I am sometimes still angry at my mother, even though she has been dead for over 35 years. When she died, I felt "good riddance," and knew enough to fake sadness at her wake and funeral. One part of me feels relaxed and normal, but another says that something must be wrong to not care when she died and to even be glad.
My father maybe should not have told me, but when I was maybe 30-35, he told me that she wanted an abortion with me and that he stopped her. Of course, I did not know that as a child, but I always suspected that she did not love me or did not want me, even though she said so repeatedly. I do not see N behaviors in my mother. Rather, I think that she had an anxiety disorder. Interesting that my father never used the word "love" with me, but I never doubted it from him.
These two paragraphs really spoke to me. Sometimes, when I’m feeling good, I can look at my mom and say, “she didn’t know how to love me, she didn’t know who I was, and it was never personal”, and I let out a big sigh of relief. When I’m feeling really low, though, these very same words make me feel so bad that I wonder whether I have a place on this earth, and that makes me so sad and angry and resentful and goodness knows what else. The fact is, it’s terribly painful to feel unloved by anyone, especially our parents, and your mom doesn’t have to be an N for you to have been really hurt by her.
Which brings me to my point. It just popped into my head as I read your post, so forgive me if I’m waaaaay off base, but I wonder if coming to terms with the fact that this friend – a friend you’ve invested 40 years of your life into – can’t get better and be well for you is in any way a reminder of how your mother couldn’t really love you?
Just a thought.
Wildflower
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Thanks Wildflower, and there is of course, nothing to forgive for anything you write. On the contrary, I thank you for reading my post and offering ideas or suggestions.
I do not think that was the case at all with the N "friend." My thinking at that time was, "Mothers can cripple you. Best to get away from them."
I was in counseling 3 years ago when contemplating a divorce after 23 years of marriage. The counselor said that in choosing a partner, people mostly know only what they grew up with. They invariably try to reproduce it or fix it in their choice of a spouse.
I had decided to get married, and we were on a trip to see my family. She was writing some letters, and I fell asleep. When I woke, I looked at her in a half-asleep state and saw something I will never forget: My mother who was healthy, normal and loving! It was only a second or two, but that is what I saw. Needless to say, she was (and is) a very stable person. The only downside, I realized much later, was that there was no passion. I suppose that I was afraid of any unpredictability. I really wanted someone who would be stable and dependable and loyal.
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Yes, it also troubles me that I maintain such curiosity and interest. Since we were friends at such a young age, his psyche is probably part of mine and vice-versa.
Tokyojim, if people only maintained curiosity about nice, wonderful people, we would have no TV, no movies, no art, no literature. It would be pretty boring.
I am not sure about your saying that there is a possibility that I am talking about my parents. But there may be some good insight there. I am sometimes still angry at my mother, even though she has been dead for over 35 years. When she died, I felt "good riddance," and knew enough to fake sadness at her wake and funeral. One part of me feels relaxed and normal, but another says that something must be wrong to not care when she died and to even be glad.
Maybe you wanted her to grow up and be an adult. I see your feelings toward your mother as natural. There is a lot of ambivalence there, also. It doesn't make you "bad" or unnatural. She's the one who created an ambivalent mother-son relationship. If you felt "good riddance," she's the one who made it turn out that way.
My father maybe should not have told me, but when I was maybe 30-35, he told me that she wanted an abortion with me and that he stopped her. Of course, I did not know that as a child, but I always suspected that she did not love me or did not want me, even though she said so repeatedly. I do not see N behaviors in my mother. Rather, I think that she had an anxiety disorder. Interesting that my father never used the word "love" with me, but I never doubted it from him.
Well, your father should not have told you this. All it can do is make you feel terrible. Anyway, even if your mother wasn't narcissistic but only anxious, that still creates problems between mother and child. The good news is, you wanted to be more functional than your mother, and you are more functional.
bunny
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HI Tokyojim;
I'm sure if you had feelings towards your mother like you do ie feeling a sense of "good riddance" when she died that they are justified. Its sad that you didn't have a meanaingful relationship with her; I'm sure she didn't bond or nurture adequately.
When I read your feelings about letting go of your relationship with your friend I felt as if I could feel your angst and conflict over this as clear as a bell over the cyberspace airways. I have had similar feelings in mulling over whether or not to let go of my relationship with my n mother. Its almost as if in coming close to making the decision the drum roll begins and then I expected crashing cymbals as my anger and emotion led me closer to finally crossing that bridge.
I haven't cut her off tho relating is extremely limited; I guess I found it was just not as easy as all that; more complicated because of the emotions and past history involved. But even so I went in circles for days (more like weeks) trying to figure out ways to salvage the relationship or try for the millionth time to find a way to bring out a healthier side in her. I mentioned in another post that I have a friend who is a mental health social worker who put it rather bluntly to me one day when he said "you're not going to win you know; she's crazy, you'll never win". Succinct and to the point; yes I guess I was still trying to win by trying to find a way to protect myself and appeal to her sanity. It won't work!
N's seem to have a way of hooking their families and people who care; it might have something to do with the occaisional lucid times (and I mean occaisional) that fuels hope and keeps one coming back again and again and again hoping for a crumb of caring and respect. Isn't this a bit similar to Pavlov's intermittant reinforecement which is the strongest form of reinforcement; perhaps in this sense these relationships become addictive. (much like the cycle of abuse in abusive domestic relationships where the wife gets beaten and continues to forgive, returning over and over again hoping for a different outcome).
You sound angry that your friend could just not grow up and show the kind of character you needed from him; I can relate to that very much. He's let you down and I'm sure you've given a lot of yourself to the relationship and he couldn't get it together to remain on equal footing with you. I wonder if you feel like he took something from you as well and that may be why its so hard to let go? I've had to face the fact that despite all my efforts some relationships fail and it isn't my fault. (I'm still struggling a little with that since I tend to feel guilty if things don't go well all the time) What are you the most afraid of losing if you were to give up the relationship? Does ego play into it or does it go beyond that?
Thanks for sharing this with all of us. Surf
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and while I can't really imagine it, I wonder what would happen if he tried to have an honest conversation with his daughter instead of dropping hints and making changes without telling her what's going on. Maybe a conversation about how he messed up and it's not her fault but that he'd like to make it up to her and try to have a normal father-daughter relationship with her? I only say that because I know how I often jump to the the worst conclusion when I'm confused about something or don't understand why things have changed (he doesn't love me anymore, she's making him do this, blah blah blah). It may be something that just takes time to change, but I thought I'd throw that out there in any case.
Wildflower
Yes you're right. I think this too. But he finds it so hard discuss even with me. I've suggested he give her the book to read. He feels she couldn't cope with it, and it'd be too emabarrassing for her. Her behaviour is so lascivious with him. I tend to agree in some ways. Gee it's hard. And you're right when you say she must struggle with "Why won't he kiss me on the lips anymore, or look at me in my knickers, or let me rest my hand on his crotch?" :shock: :shock: :shock: YYUUUUK!!!
Yes, she definitely blames me for all the changes she has to cope with, but heck, what was I supposed to do??? I have learned from a lot of reading that re-aligning the parent child relationship is hard in the best of environments, with the best of intentions on both sides! Add years of conflict, divorce, both parents re-marrying and having more kids, narcissisum, and emotional incest to the picture and you've got a nigh impossible predicament to deal with.
She probably wouldn't believe it if she knew how much my heart goes out her, poor girl, she's so messed up, thanks to her mother and my husband. It's so hard to see how screwed up we are, when our parents did such a fine job f#*#ing us up and distorting our vision and perceptions of reality.
And unfortunately, I have to add she has a very deadly sting in her tail, and has managed to influence her siblings negatively against both of us. Funny, they see nothing at all weird about the way she relates to her dad. Even though they themselves are very non-physical with him. They refer to her as "Dad's favourite." And often comment along the lines of "She can ask him for anything an he'll do it."
I don't think I will be the one to reach her, she's too threatened by me, and sees just about everything I do through black glasses. It'll have to be through her dad, or somebody else. But gosh it's tragic, what happened to her in her childhood. And of course, her dad wasn't 'meaning' to exploit her, he just used her up 'without meaning to', the BLOODY IDIOT.
Stupid Parents - can - be - so - f*#*ing - dangerous!!!!!
CG
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P.S. Tokyojim;
The questions I posed at the end of my last post were for clarification purposes; its not something you necessarily need to answer here. Just wanted to add that asI don't want to be too prying. Thaks again for the thought provoking thread. Surf
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Bunny
You mentioned that my feelings toward my mother as natural as a result of the parenting relationship. I am certain that you are right. What worries me is that there probably is some psychic damage from that, and I really do not see it myself. Maybe I made a healthy adjustment to an unhealthy situation and should let it be, or maybe I should deal with something.
Surf,
In thinking about my friend, I can relate exactly to your statement about trying to “bring out the healthier side in her” (your mother). Yes, and trying to win by finding a way to protect ourselves and appeal to their sanity. But, as your social worker friend said, “we ain’t gonna win.”
Thank you for your statement, “angry that your friend could just not grow up and show the kind of character you needed from him.” In all of these years, I have never looked at it in that fashion. Yes, “character.” I would have liked a friend who could be one in that true sense. I am not sure of what I am most afraid of losing in giving up the relationship. This is difficult….. I think that I have put an incredible amount of time and effort into trying to get him to join the human race by getting out of his “mommy’s” house and working, traveling, studying, and/or having normal relationships with women. I think that it is difficult to accept that all of that effort has been in vain, and that there is no hope of a friendship or normalcy. During the last 2+ years, he has wanted to sell his house and “move on,” and this gave me hope. I know something about real estate, having bought or sold houses 15 times. I gave incredible amounts of encouragement and information to him, but I could see that his N behaviors were driving away clients and realtors. Once, a real estate lawyer actually threw him out of his office and said to get someone else! Of course, my N “friend” was convinced that the lawyer was inept and should be sued. I knew an excellent realtor in the town. He contacted her but….. I happened to see her later, and she said diplomatically that things did not work out and she referred him to someone else. He told me that she was incompetent and inflexible, and also that she kept contacting him because she obviously wanted to have sex with him! I could go on and on, but that is the stuff I dealt with for the past 2+ years, and I finally stopped in frustration.
Thanks for listening….. Unless a person has read about and dealt with a N, it is quite unbelieveable.
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You mentioned that my feelings toward my mother as natural as a result of the parenting relationship. I am certain that you are right. What worries me is that there probably is some psychic damage from that, and I really do not see it myself. Maybe I made a healthy adjustment to an unhealthy situation and should let it be, or maybe I should deal with something.
Tokyojim, If your life is pretty much on keel, you're functioning okay, your marriage is all right, your job is all right, then whatever psychic damage occurred isn't causing major problems. Out of natural curiosity, though, you might want to explore your feelings about it.
In thinking about my friend, I can relate exactly to your statement about trying to “bring out the healthier side in her” (your mother). Yes, and trying to win by finding a way to protect ourselves and appeal to their sanity. But, as your social worker friend said, “we ain’t gonna win.”
When we have a strong urge to rescue someone, it often means that we actually want to rescue and repair the parents-of-our-childhood and ourselves. We project this wish onto this other person. And just as we couldn't repair our parents during our childhood, we can't repair this person either. They usually resist it! The only person we can actually repair is ourselves, in therapy.
You've invested an incredible amount of effort into this friend, who did nothing but trash your efforts and embarrass you. Obviously this man is way, way, beyond the pale and no one can help him. But you hope that with some superhuman effort, he will show some appreciation and make good your investment. It's futile, because he is a bad investment and his stock is just going down all the time. Sometimes, though, you think his shares are rising in value (when he wanted to move). But they aren't. This is similar to a small child trying desperately to "parent" his own parents and repair their damage, so that they can parent him! But he usually fails because he's not qualified for that responsibility. Sometimes we keep trying to repair this damage our whole lives. Heck, I still try to repair my mother all the time. Futile!
bunny