Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: redginger on July 06, 2007, 10:04:38 AM
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Hi RG,
There are a lot of theories on what causes Narcissism, but I don't think anyone really knows.
I do know of people who are Ns and even serious psychopaths and were raised by good parents in a good home.
Just as you didn't cause the tragedy with your other daughter I rather doubt you caused this one to be an N.
The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
I think all of us, when we have been able to stop obsessing about the N's in our lives, start wondering about ourselves.
I have to say this is something I never experienced. I have not done and would never do to others what has been done to me. My mind can't even conceive of some the tactics that have been done to me. So I've never thought for one moment I am one and I've never really understood why anyone would. It seems akin to worrying that I am a delusional schizophrenic because I have a daydream.
mud
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Redginger,
Here's a good link with great information about how to determine NPD (versus N-ism more general - what CB is talking about - all of us have a little - some traits, but not the PD - personality disorder part).
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html
Please read.
If you have a therapist who's trained at all in this, they should be able to determine it easily, or refer you to someone who can.
Dandylife
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Red,
Noooooooo.. No
I have been in a relationship with are real pc of shit husband N maybe even psychopath. What does it matter if your son is an N, daughter,mother, father they are still N's,period. I don't care if you are her mother it does not make you to blame for her.
My mother and father were not N's and I still dated and married an N. Is it my mothers fault. NO! It was mine. My choice. My mistake and I own it. They did nothing to make me act, behave or accept the shit my husband gave my way. I did that all on my own.
Does that make me not supposed to be here because I did not have a mother who is an N, absolutely not. I did have pain and abuse from an N (my husband) and my (friend also).
You do belong here. You are suffering and experiencing the same pain as we all are on here.
You have a voice and I hear and believe you. I do not want to cause you anymore pain then you already have.
If this is all about N mothers with daughters then I am on the wrong one too. That would be like telling me it's my mothers fault that I chose my husband. It was not. It was mine. I was stupid and in my 20s and everything I thought I knew and then somemore. I was young and made some mistakes but they were mine, not hers. She did nothing but unconditional love me.
I do not get this feeling from this board. I feel nothing but acceptance and validation. I am sorry if we caused you to feel any other.
I did things because I did them. I was a kid then a young adult then I really grew up. It was nothing that my parents did it was my choice and experiencing life which is not always so fair or safe. I had to learn my own way. Experience my own experiences no matter what I was taught or guided in.
I honestly cannot blame them.
That is my personal story of life with my parents, mother.
I want you to know that.
In my case, no one was to blame but me and my poor choices.
This has nothing to do with anyone elses experience we all have different stories and different pain. This is just mine.
I know there are horrendous mothers and fathers out there. I am not trying to take anything away from anyone. I know it is all true.
And this is my truth.
Deb
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because my therapist says my daughter is a N, it's sometimes assumed that I'm an N by some.
does your therapist work with your daughter too? That's quite a big long-distance diagnosis to make if not!
There are dangers in applying a functional model to psychology- people don't fit general rules.
And mothers are blamed for so much, and supported so little, in all our societies.
When we are going through pain we don't see the whole big picture though, for years I couldn't see my abusive mother for the frightened, immature, addicted young girl she was, in fact only when she died did I really have the freedom from the fear of her to forgive her.
instead of 'blaming' daughters father, my deceased daughters boyfriend, and my N daughter that I should look at myself instead of 'blaming' them.
I don't know what has been said before but I do believe the only thing we can change is ourselves unless we are talking about young and developing childrens' behaviour.
Just going to a therapist and working on yourself will have an effect on your whole family I am sure.
And I hope you stick around and work through any issues you may have about triggering others, which we all do in any support group, it's a good way to develop resilience if you can hang in there whilst you're hurt and angry.
I swear to God that I've tried everything but it's just not good enough. She says the same thing about me, it's all about my feelings, but my family will tell you the opposite is true. Anything i do is never enough for her, never has been. She says she's given up on us and will no longer be in touch.
you sound frustrated. Parenting is a thankless task sometimes!
Children take a long time to mature, if she is NPD she may never fully mature.
Gift-giving is a common topic of upset here, we all have so many expectations and coded messages around gifts.
They have a symbolism and significance far beyond the objects or events themselves, sometimes I think we would be better off without formalised non-spontaneous giving of any kind...
we all have different stories and different pain. This is just mine.
Debkor's right.
No one is perfect, everyone has their troubles and if you can talk and listen you're just the same as everyone else here.
Welcome.
I am a delusional schizophrenic because I have a daydream.
well that would depend on the daydream Mud....didn't you once go into a page-long reverie about living in a riverbank :)
There is a serious side to delusional thoughts though which I have written about before- the fact that we think things does not necessarily mean acting them.
Most mentally ill people are completely harmless because they would not act their delusions, they have values which transcend their illness or disability.
I have seen this over and over.
Yet the opposite perception the one which gives good media entertainment value- is the one which pervades, that people who are delusional re dangerous and violent.
My brother is schizophrenic and I have bipolar 1 and neither of us would commit a violent act either sick or well; that goes for every other mentally ill person I have ever known, hundreds maybe a thousand now, and is born out in larger studies and stats.
I've always seen NPD as part of a spectrum including the psycopath or anti-social PD on the extreme and quite rare, but most Ns don't even realise the violence they inflict because psychological damage is still not taken as seriously and our societies have values which secretly condone cruelty or unpleasantness.
Look at what people laugh at, there's a lot of unpleasantness in it and we say it doesn't matter because it's a harmless outlet.
And the violence and pain continue....and where they are coupled with other dodgy values and weapons, and immature people, they escalate!
Okay, enough rambling.
Houston is pretty flooded today, think I'll go walk the dog whilst the rain has stopped.
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Write and Debkor,
I'm glad you are here. We have learned that it is in telling our stories over and over that we finally heal. We sure are good listeners!
CB
Yes, you are, CB. And I agree, telling it over and over does help heal. Thank you.
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Hey, Red.
Keep on posting, hon. That was one triggered response that doesn't reflect a consensus...you know that.
You're furious with your D and you should be. It's NORMAL.
You are probably going out of your mind to be treated so by your living daughter, who is being colossally selfish and insensitive.
You are still in the worst kind of shock a human being who is a parent could face. EVER.
There is NO emotion you could feel or rant you could write that would be unacceptable to this board.
There is NO way you can or should or ever could reasonably be blamed or guilted for your daughter's disastrous choice.
It is just a tragedy beyond explaining, beyond grasping. It is as awful as an earthquake devouring a town. It is your tsunami.
We have a group identity as well as individual ones, and though it may be hard to trust after one jarring response when you first reached out, I do hope you will stay.
It would be an honor to hear you and support you as you deal with unspeakable loss and pain beyond fathoming.
Please don't worry about "off notes". We're not a trained symphony, but together, we will make a loving sound, I promise.
with love, and much gentleness,
Hops
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Hiya Red.
Just to clarify....that was me that I think you are referring to re the comment. I did not say this is not the right forum for you. My comment was about my own choice of words. Copy and paste:
Why do some people so often blame so much on mothers? I guess this site isn't a good place to ask that question because there are so many here who have had to endure horrible, nasty, even evil behaviour or incidiously cruel and manipulative treatment from their mothers.
I'm sorry I've upset you. Not what I wanted at all. I was trying to say that mothers get blamed all the time, sometimes unfairly...... but that here, there are plenty of people who have endured bad mothers and so to ask that question, I am not in the right place (not you Red). I went on to say that I don't think you are that kind of (bad) mother at all but I must not have said it all clearly enough and I'm sorry for that.
Sela
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Hiya Red.
Just to clarify....that was me that I think you are referring to re the comment. I did not say this is not the right forum for you. My comment was about my own choice of words. Copy and paste:
Why do some people so often blame so much on mothers? I guess this site isn't a good place to ask that question because there are so many here who have had to endure horrible, nasty, even evil behaviour or incidiously cruel and manipulative treatment from their mothers.
I'm sorry I've upset you. Not what I wanted at all. I was trying to say that mothers get blamed all the time, sometimes unfairly...... but that here, there are plenty of people who have endured bad mothers and so to ask that question, I am not in the right place (not you Red). I went on to say that I don't think you are that kind of (bad) mother at all but I must not have said it all clearly enough and I'm sorry for that.
Sela
No apologises needed, Sela. I wasn't trying to say anything negative about your post, honestly. It just gave me cause to wonder if indeed I was on the wrong forum, I'm new here and I wanted to be sure, besides that, there are a lot of people with problem moms here so I didn't want to be here and make anyone feel worse with what I was saying. You did make your reply clear. I guess I'm just super sensitive right now, plus being told to look at myself for guilt on my very first post....well, it made me sort of defensive I guess. I'm sorry if you think I was insinuating that you were trying to run me off or anything, I truly wasn't.
Hop, you have got to be one of the kindest people around....I thank you from the bottom of my heart for understanding and for your kind words. You sure have a way with words, you could be a writer. I've been doing a lot of reading here and have to say there seems to be a lot of very nice people with a lot of support to give. I'll be here, I'm very hurt, confused and bruised right now, and I appreciate the support.
Red
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Oh so glad you posted back Red. Thankyou.
Hey, no worries about feeling defensive or sensitive. Who wouldn't? I was trying to ease your distress but maybe I could have found a better way. I'm good at putting my foot in my mouth sometimes. I'm glad you are still here and still talking. But sorry for all you are going through.
I don't think you need to be told to look at yourself. I'm sure when a child commits suicide, any loving parent will feel guilty enough. I'm glad you stood up for yourself and didn't accept someone adding to that. I hope you won't beat yourself up either because your child was an adult who made a choice. I'm sure that doesn't ease your pain but it is what happened. You didn't cause this.
You have a double wammy with your other D not mourning with you. That makes everything worse, I'm sure. Maybe, in time, she will decide differently. I hope so.
Please take good care of you. This is so recent and raw for you. I'm glad you have your hubby and therapist and a support group. ((((((((((((((Red))))))))))))))).
Sela
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Red,
Your brave, beautiful daughter WAS very brave.
What tremendous courage to sit in that airport for 3 hours and not waver.
She had the courage to be open with you, to be honest about her shattering.
She IS going to be with you forever. Every time you speak of her, she enters
minds and hearts and memories.
Somehow, like a magnificent tree that has literally grown around a boulder
that is immovable, you will also keep growing, and there will be new life,
new leaves, and you will one day be able to feel the breeze, and feel peace.
Not yet, I know. All the mothers and father who have ever lost a child will
keep vigil with you. They will always understand that speechless language.
Always, you will understand and have compassion for others' pain, whether
here or in Africa or in any place where humans love and risk and win and lose.
There is healing in the circle, and there will be healing for you.
Hops
Hops
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Hops,
Hop, you have got to be one of the kindest people around....I thank you from the bottom of my heart for understanding and for your kind words. You sure have a way with words, you could be a writer.
Yesssss! And you are...
Your post #14 is beautiful Hops. It ministered to me as I'm sure your words continue to minister to redginger.
Love,
tt
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TT,
It's incalculable, what you and Red have undergone...
love
Hops
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Dearest RedGinger-
Many hugs to you. I am so sorry for the immense suffering that you have been through. Introspection is a natural part of the mourning process. I pray that you find the love and support that you need, in the right places, and ignore the gnawing "worm of doubt". You are a strong and worthy person, and the bravery and love that you have shown in sharing your story and working to help others, is awesome.
God Bless You,
Changing