Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: motheroffour on July 07, 2007, 01:26:42 PM
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I am a wife and a mother who is now realizing, with the help of my therapist, that I may have married into a Narcissistic family. For ten years, I have dealt with crazy-making circumstances that have destablized my self worth and deminished my ability to trust my environment. My husbands family looks so perfect. They feel perfect. They have many friends, are very charming, active in community/church service, are talented and fun. They have fanclubs. They live comfortably with all the praise they recieve. They were even voted "Family of the Year". But behind the scenes, when I am alone, the attacks take place. Nothing I feel or do or say is right. They assume they know my thoughts and tell me what I feel and think and what kind of person I am. The twins, "shame and blame", seem to be part of my mother-in-laws daily discourse. Along with intense control and claims of victimization when she doesn't get her way. Empathy, negotiation, acceptance of opposing views, all seem to be difficult, if not impossible. They do all the right things but the feelings are absent. They don't have problems. Problems are shameful. They are different or more special than the rest of the world. Kind of "blessed by God". They look and sound humble. No one on the earth would believe me if I discribed what I experience on the inside. I feel alone and hurting and have tried over the years to distance myself. That, of couse, is against the rules of happy families. I can't have any other emotion but happiness. If I am having a bad day, they feel that I have disturbed their happiness and am blaming them for my problems. If I have a concern with the family, it is met with such resistance that sends me reeling back. My therapist says, "run like Hell." Has anyone experienced living in the perfect family that is so emotionally underdeveloped? I have felt so crazy. To feel so badly about people who look so christian. My husband finally sees it too. His is coming terms with the emotional handicaps he has as a result. I feel so alone. I feel really trapped and want to move to another country to protect myself and my kids.
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Dear Friend,
I am so sorry that you are enduring this. I think that one really bright spot is that your Husband is seeing it,too. I think that it is unusual for the son of such a family to be so honest. That is a really,really positive thing that you have on your side.
I have a N( narcissistic) mother and a silent father. I think the main point that I would like to emphasize is to trust yourself and your perceptions. No one would"imagine" the things that you are describing.
FBI agents say that they always trust their 'gut" . It very rarely leads them wrong. I would trust myself.
If you have your husbands help-- you should be able to break away in the best way that you know how. Keep sharing. You will find great wisdom ,here. Love Ami
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Welcome MOF
Trust your therapist and "Run Like Hell"
You and your husband and children make a family. Your family does not need any outside influence from Ns
The next best piece of advice after RLH is NO CONTACT. No contact means do not see them, do not answer phone calls from them, do not answer emails from them, do not think of them, do not try to exact revenge on them, do not have the teeniest iota of ANYTHING to do with them and the longer there is No Contact the faster you will heal from any trauma already done.
They are toxic people and there is no point in carrying any relationship one step further.
you are very fortunate that your husband reconizes what you do and together you can work on living your own lives without the N relatives.
Good Luck to you.
love
Izzy
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Hi Motheroffour,
Welcome to the board!
Listen, what you are feeling is not crazy. There is no way a "normal" family cannot have ups & downs. To deny you your feelings is damaging. My husband & are Christians. While we acknowledge we are truly blessed, we don't feel like we are the OLY ones. Of course, that exactly the type of behavior a true Narcissist would believe. What type of "fanclub" is it? That is weird!
Anyway, I have an NMother who thinks she "special". It's HARD to live up to!
We've all be through this. You are in a safe & caring place.
Bigalspal
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Motheroffour, I'm also new here and new to this whole N thing, so I can't give any advice. I just wanted to give you a hug ((((hug)))). I'm very happy that your husband is seeing things as they are, I think that will be a tremendous help to you and your family.
Red
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((((((((((((((((((((((((((Mother))))))))))))))))))))))))
Welcome and I look forward to hearing more. I am pleased that you said your husband is coming to the realization along with you. That means your family is strong. Wonderful to hear that you have a therapist who tells you the truth!!!! Can you get away????? How soon?????
Love, Beth
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Mother of four, Moffie
How eloquently you describe life as a feeling person in a culture of narcissists. Their training is rigourous. They buy into a value system and condition each other with reward and punishment until it is cast in concrete. This kind of family is so enmeshed that an outsider is just a little critter who bounces off the pack. Enmeshed families are not good for spouses or human beings. There seems to be a covert acknowledgement, never spoken, that nothing you can do will ever be right. Every such family needs a scapegoat and this is soul destroying for the candidate.
In my case I married unknowingly into a family like that. They were made up of people who knew how to enlist others as fans through their charisma and aura of ambition, success and bullet proof self esteem. There were several alcoholics in the family so that could account for some of the self absorbed and
entitled behaviour. I could really relate to your description of the fans. My husband was described by many people as being the most Christ like person they had ever met. And smart. Smarter than the people around him for sure.
I thought he was brilliant and morally enlightened and facinarting too. People just followed him. His family certainly did. Sort of in the manner of the patriarch. Eventually, he acquired lots of money and then it became inevitable that he would pay their downpayments on houses, set them up in business etc.
This family made my life miserable. I was beautiful, intelligent, madly in love with him and mother of his child. He beat me, cheated on me, left me alone and isolated on an island with no electiricty for weeks with a small baby. But he was the golden boy and the family treated me like an outsider. Spouses come and go but they are united. This could be a good thing but the cutting down and backstabbing that I experienced was insidious, constant and debilitatating. I had no idea what was going on.
THere are narcissistic families. I have not found literature on this but have seen it. They need scapegoats. The brighter the stars, the darker the shadow. And their minions????? How come they only associate with people a little less sharp, a little less brilliant. They require these minions.
One of the cardinal rules is not to feel and not to look deep. If you are sensitive and look beneath the surface you will not be welcome. I agree, Get Out. Keep sharing your story and get some healthy perspecitive on this family.
What you have gone through sounds brutal.
Sea storm
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Thanks to all that replied to me today. Wow. Someone actually answered me!?! Your words are comforting and I so appreciate it. I may need to clarify my comment on "fanclubs." What I meant was that this family has people who seem to follow them around constantly giving praise and support. As I watch it, it feels one sided to me. Or they seem part of the fabric of the perfect world filled with friends and happiness and everyone who makes you feel good.
Sea storm, I appreciated what you said about the rigourous training. My husband has recently commented that he has never really been allowed to have a "self". He is to go along with the program, agree with the plan, and be happy about it. He said that he has never been allowed to really explore his inner thoughts and ideas until now. So many times over the years, I have wanted to move far away. We have changed cities twice. But are within one hour driving distance. They seem to come after us. They want us at every family party (usually once a month) and want access to the grandkids weekly. Last night in bed, we thought about changing countries.
Thank you for your kind words and for the hugs from affar. So many times I have wished for a hug from someone who knew. Who I didn't have to endlessly explain to. Empathy seems scarce in my current environment.
I think that I am a victim of the enmeshment. Trying to break free. Feeling that I need a great "unwinding" or "detoxing" from all the dogma that has held me prisoner. I have recently moved into a new home. We have been avoiding contact with his family and at the same time trying to create some peace after a family fight. I hear their voices in my head. I am sure someone is walking up to my frontdoor. Sometimes I think I must be out of my mind. Not sure why I believed them. Not sure why I convinced myself that because they looked so happy and perfect, that emulating their stratagies would make me happy. I miss myself a lot. Trying to get it back. Trying to give my "old self" permission to come out and breath and let my hair down and just be. Did any of you need to do that too? Anybody feel like they bought into it like I did? You all sound so resistent to it. How do you get that way?
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The next best piece of advice after RLH is NO CONTACT. No contact means do not see them, do not answer phone calls from them, do not answer emails from them, do not think of them, do not try to exact revenge on them, do not have the teeniest iota of ANYTHING to do with them and the longer there is No Contact the faster you will heal from any trauma already done.
I must say, this is exactly the statagy I have been reading about. And my logical brain agrees. But I feel a responsibility to remain in contact. To detach without anyone knowing. The backlash that will come if we cut them off with be brutal. What about my husbands brothers and sisters that he loves so much. What about his father who is not a N.? What about my kids and their cousins who are best friends? If it were me alone, I would move to Alaska faster than you can spit. But the rest of my family is very attached to these relationships. You see, my husband doesn't get the negative feedback I do. He is used to being controlled. Confortable with the social ease with which his family enjoys. He is loved by many people. I am invisable. I have thought about divorce. Even separated last year. My husband has finally realized the problems I face in this situation but this is a great loss to him. We learned from our therapist about Narcissism only happened a few days ago. His family is everything to him. They are not evil people. Their dysfunction is so embedded and so hard to identify. One can't see it like you can see an alcoholic or someone who is visably mentally ill. It seems like I am stuck trying to balance the needs of all involved. And hoping that I can manage forgiveness and self-protection at the same time.
--motheroffour
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You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Taking care of your children and your husband or saving yourself from disappearing.
How about taking care of yourself? In the moment. You need not make declarations or leave the country to start to nurture yourself. You have been pushing the boulder up the hill long enough.
I believe that a husband needs to be loyal to his wife and if anyone tries to brutalize her they are in big trouble. There is something annoying about a mate who pretends not to see when his mate is getting hurt. How come you aren't angry about this?
I am not the most spiritually enlightened person but this sounds like a real mess and I feel really sorry for you.
Good luck
Sea storm
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Seastorm & CB.
Thanks for your words of advice. So much has happened in the last three years....it is hard to sum up. But the long and short of it is that is has been a mess. I have been in therapy (couples and individual) for many months now. We started going to address issues concerning my husbands addiction and my depression. We started reading books, going to group, 12 steps, the works! From the begining of our marriage, I saw the perfectionism and control. Felt the backlash for sharing my own feelings and the shame for going against the system. I can't count the number of times I tried to point it out to my husband. He just couldn't see. He blamed me I think and thought I was too emotionally needy or too sensitive. He never defended me --even to my face even though I begged him to. I finally mustered up enough self-love to say no to his addiction and his family system (which he had enforced in our home) and left. That was the turning point for us. Since then, he has gotton a handle on his addiction and is finally out of denial about his family. The news though about the N component of our stuggle has hit us both like a brick. We have been reading the literature and are shocked at how it all seems to fit. I feel like I see my last 10 years with completely new eyes. My husband an I have moved to a different county and are trying to start a life away.
Am I angry that my husband doesn't defend me? Yes!!!!!! I am even more angry that he doesn't recognize it. I try and explain. Most of the time, he can't feel anything. He takes my word for it and tries to act like he is defending. The one time he did confront his family about how they treat me, caused such punishment. It is 11 months later and we are still feeling the effects. It was one conversation that could have been negotiated so easily. But they just kinda cut him off. It was crazy to see the reaction of the family.
Anyway, now I am literally trying not to disappear as you put it. I am trying to nuture myself. I have nuturing things I do every day. I waiting for the day when it starts to sink in. When I can feel the peace of detachment, and feel the flourishing of my self love. It is, I must admit, the hardest challenge I have ever faced.
Thank you for your compassion. It really means a lot.
motheroffour
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((((Motheroffour))))
God bless you.... you have your plate full.
Keep posting and educating yourself.
Welcome
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Warm Welcome, Mo4,
Wow. I think you deserve a retreat. You sound exhausted.
Is it possible? Is there any way you can do a women's workshop or an art or spiritual or therapeutic retreat?
I'm glad you're here. I'm really glad you know how important self-nurturing is.
It doesn't matter whether it's "justified" that you feel hunted and stalked by them.
It matters what you feel, and how you are.
Hopalong
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You all are giving my strength. thank you
mof 4
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because i'm right on the vortex of my husband's "damned if i do, damned if i don't --should i piss off my wife ir my mom this time?" triange i have to psoe the question i ask of myself: does your husband see his family as clinically dysfunctional to a really high degree? or is he just saying that to "keep the peace"?
as you all can see, i'm in need of sound life-experience advice on this topic as well. i currently avoid MIL completely we have 3 children and i don't know how to be reasonable and rarional in regards to their levels of access my mil. i don't know what's "normal" because my family is similar in looking so neat and tidy. please help???!!! and yes - husband and i are in counseling for this but i've had my fair share dealing with addictions and continued recovery/2+ yrs. sobriety (feels great to ay that and to live it) as well as therapy for abusive husbands (two prior). i feel like he should do some individual work as well.
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Hey jillebean,
How are you? Sounds like you have been thru a lot and you are a fighter. I feel your strength.
I empathize with your situation. Our husband's sound similar in that they are stuck between wife and family. And I have wondered and think that many times he does it just to keep the peace. Other times, I am not sure he knows what to do. There are seemingly real losses for him on both sides. I must admit I am navigating all the family dynamics with not much experience. Trying balance the needs of my children, with my needs, with patiently (well, maybe not so patiently) waiting for my husband to realize the extent of his families dysfunction. I think he does realize it. But it needs some time to sink in. He is still processing all of the information we are just now receiving on the subject. I am relatively new to understanding N (Not new to liviing with it), and I am trying now to learn as much as I can about its effects. My husband is coming to his own realizations but in his own time (much slower than I would like). Sometimes I get so frustrated as what I think is his inability to be loyal to me. But I am learning how the control of his family has really disabled his emotional capacities. I have to remind myself to be patient as he tries to work it all out.
Is your husband aware of the dynamics in your family? Does he see a need to create distance with them? Does he partner with you in coming up with solutions for your children's need to see Grandma? Does he struggle with the effects of being raised in this kind of family and does he see the extent??? Does he suppress feelings and try to solve problems by denying they exist?
In the mean time, much love from another who has had too :shock: much "neat and tidy"!
--mof4
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Wow! You have hit the head on the nail! Sounds just like my husband. As far as children go, I feel like my husband should deal with what he states as problematic between him and his mom before we have the children go to her house again. not because I'm wanting control over how hubby handles his stuff with mom, but because i don't want the children to serve as detractors so that H can say he didn't get the chance to talk to mom about stuff because there was no privacy.
And the longer my husband denies the dysfunction, the more i feel like he has me and his mom on the same level in terms of openness and honesty goes. I' currently looking at boundaries and where mine are weak or non-existent, but it's sooooo hard to focus on that stuff when my husband keeps checking to see if I'm ok. i love him dearly and I don't think he does these things to hurt me, but his reactions when I try to talk ona matter-of-fact basis really put me off.
Also, I.m a recovering alcoholic of 2 yrs. 1 month so my emotions to overwhelm me and others sometimes. Perhaps I should try a vacation of sorts? I dunno.
Thanks so much for your empathy!!!! You're awsome : ))
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Hi Jille, and welcome again,
Congratulations on your sobriety. That's huge. You have a new life!
It must feel a little raw, as though you're walking in strength...now everybody catch up!
I think your hubby needs his own individual counseling. His waking up to the truth of his family is priority, I agree with you...but it has to become HIS priority. I think his own counseling could illuminate that for him, and help him to grasp it as his own personal goal. Maybe he's going at a pace that frustrates you, but then, you've got a lot of healthy living to catch up on and you want to get on with it!
Understandable. :)
Meanwhile, if the in-laws are harming your children, mother tiger rules, everybody else ready or not. If it's just bearable but irritating, I think a retreat from it, something that takes your mind back to you and your own inner work, is a great idea.
Dunno if this makes much sense, I'm short on caffeine.
hopefully,
Hopalong
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And the longer my husband denies the dysfunction, the more i feel like he has me and his mom on the same level in terms of openness and honesty goes.
I' currently looking at boundaries and where mine are weak or non-existent, but it's sooooo hard to focus on that stuff when my husband keeps checking to see if I'm ok. i love him dearly and I don't think he does these things to hurt me, but his reactions when I try to talk ona matter-of-fact basis really put me off.
Hi Jillebean,
I've felt this way... like my husband may put me and his mom on the same level in terms of emotional openness and honesty.
This is something I've been working through here at home... trying to come to terms with my own part in it... because I'd tried to keep communication open with my m-i-l, while he basically had chosen to ignore her, for the most part.
Now the people involved in my particular situation aren't NPD, but alot of the same factors are involved... I guess because of past emotional turmoils.
And I'm two years out of drinking, too... still learning to feel and deal with emotions, rather than stuff or numb them.
Anyhow, I'm just coming to see that I was setting up a no-win situation for my husband when (in my mind) I'd hinge our entire relationship on his approach to his mother. I do not mean to say that's what you're doing... and I do understand that it's much different when an in-law is NPD and there are children involved...
but I've found that he is much more receptive to my input re: my feelings (including about his mother) when I make it clear to him that I don't expect him to "fix" anything... just need him to hear and hug. From what I can tell, he's shut off alot of his own feelings about his mother because they're too overwhelming to hold. I'm beginning to think that's quite wise of him to practice this sort of detachment.
Re: my dealing with her, he just wants me to do whatever will be "okay" for me, and... (here's the unspoken part, I think)... leave him out of it.
Since he and I don't have any children together and live 200 miles away from her, this is a much simpler matter.
But trying to put myself into your shoes, I wondered... does your husband have a strong interest in ensuring that your children spent time with his parents?
Is this something which he actively promotes or does he just generally choose the path of least resistance?
See, I'm trying to put myself into the position of not resisting so much as standing on my own ground, if that makes sense... and allowing him to stand on his.
That ground is becoming more common and shared as I learn to distinguish my emotions about my m-i-l's behavior from my emotions about my husband and his emotions about (whatever).
So when I tell him I feel such and such about something his mom did, I don't need him to feel the same way... only to value my feelings by acknowledging them. As we practice this together, the door opens for him to tell me how he feels about some of this... and to share with me how he deals with it. Eek.. I'm not doing very well expressing this, but the main thing I'm finding is that he needs to know I don't expect him to make everything okay for me. With that pressure off, we each have room to grow.
Hugs to you.
With love,
Hope
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CB -
My kids are 5, 12 & 14. T!e older 2 get to choose (for most part except for special celebrations) whether or not they go to g-ma's. For the past 9 mo. or so I haven't gone at all. Older two usually don't go.
Do they see the dysfunction? I dunno??? Does my H? I dunno? He says that his mom has some "character flaws" but that he's certain she doesn't know that her actions hurt others. I say, it's not about admitting fault for ANY person. It's about being open to the possibility that you may have hurt someone and open to being accountable for your own actions.
I spent a lot of energy working hubby's program. i've reshifted my focus to working mine. Where I'm still really lost is in the area of the kids. Hubby said 2 days ago that he wanted to offer to bring kid(s) to G-ma's bec-se she's been doing the guilt-trip by not calling him at all. From what I see, when she feels like she's losing controo, her pattern has been to not contact H for apx. 1 3/4 weeks and then H gets multiple phone calls with that start out with "Give me a call, Honey. Would'ya?" and move to sad-sounding requests and finally an edge of anger, but she never says anything in her messages other than basic "checking in"/"just wanna see how you're doing".
anayway he wants to be proactive so as to avoid her barrage of calls. I get that, but I don't agree with taking kids over there to avoid her manipulative behaviors. He insists that's not it. It feels like it, though.
Also, I sugessted that he might benefit from individ. counseling. I have my own therapist for my stuff and we started aout 1 month ago with couples counselor. I'm learning to be less emotionally tied to his stuff and more realistic about possible side-effec
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hello cb :lol:
Before I get to adding to my pic, has anyone ever felt as though their child has come home from N relatives home with (I hate to say this but...) a condescending attitude towards you? Like they need to correct and point out your basic flaws and act like you could really use their help???? Not intentionally, but nore like mimicking a behavior...
now for response to CB123:
i used to view this part of my life as a never-ending battle between mil and me. Then, i moved to acting the victim towards my husband, next the martyr with victim tendencies. Now I'm in a place where I'm exploring my issues with boundaries and what effect they have had on my h and my children. oh yeah... and i have always realized since i got sober that i invited mil to do her "thing" with me.
H and I are working really hard at trying different ways of viewing and talking about kids' involvement. While I still have strong emotional response to h talking to his mom I tell him that his relationship w/her is his alone. To back up my words I'm keeping my mouth shut and literally finding somewhere to go outside of house if feelings are too intense. As far as kids go, older 2 hardly ever go except for special occasions. youngest does get excited to go because G-ma has oodles of barbies and a huge doll house from her practice as a child psychologist.
also, G-Ma loves to shop and loves to give presents. what little girl wouldn't love that? And she tells Zoe (5) how much smarter she is than others. she is super intelligent but I don't appreciate the gloating that can take place and noticing where other kids fall short.
Where I am feeling kinda lost is with H saying he needs to address her recent behaviors with her and work on his boundary issues while feeling like he should take kids over there. He's run into complete resistance and denial in making requests as parent. Like with excessive gifts (90% which are un-needed/unwanted) and with teaching 5 year old how to organize, do laundry and mop the kitchen floor, and putting her in bathtub on longer visits when we've said "No need for bath today" The Kids aren't dirty"(used to put 9 yr. old son and 3 yr. old daughter in tub together which REALLY pised me off because son very uncomfortable with this and even if he wasn't, I WAS!!! sorry, took a step back for a moment... And most of all, there's a huge amount of tension in her home from all of the unspoken stuff. Oh yeah, and I cringe when I think about the judging comments she has made to our kids. She loves to use sarcasm to point out a flaw. She can be really hurtful pointing out my kids appearances (bony-butt,miss-minnie, and the 5 yr. old with the "butt and waist of a young woman) . and she is all into teaching discipline via "play therapy". and she has shamed 9 yr. old in past by handing him a plastic sheet in front of everyone to put on his bed when he has slept there. That kind of shaming kills me inside.
OK, so yesterday I told H that I would like for us to work on our parenting as a unit skills before we have kids to her house. Does that sound reasonable?